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Live Event November 16 to Remember Goody Glover, Executed for Witchcraft Nov. 16, 1688

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City of Boston proclamation declaring November 16, 1988 to be Goody Glover Day

Transcript

Goody Glover_ The Full Story of Boston’s Last Witchcraft Execution Download

Sarah Jack: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast revealing the true stories of witch trials and their victims. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, in the fourth episode of our Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 series, we're exploring the life and witch trial of Goody Glover of Boston, who was executed for witchcraft on November 16th, 1688.
Josh Hutchinson: For many years, Goody Glover has been a footnote in histories of the Salem witch trials, her own trial thought of as a preamble to the greater witch hunt to take place four years later.
Sarah Jack: However, in the late 19th century, antiquarians and others began to take some interest in Goody Glover's saga for its own sake.
Josh Hutchinson: And in the 20th and 21st centuries, Goody Glover has become important to many people, including members of the Irish American community and the Catholic Church.
Sarah Jack: She is now recognized as a martyr for dying without turning her back on her faith.
Josh Hutchinson: On the 300th anniversary of Glover's [00:01:00] death, she was honored in Boston when the City Council recognized November 16th, 1988 as Goody Glover Day.
Sarah Jack: Goody Glover Day continues to be recognized each year unofficially. However, no official functions take place.
Josh Hutchinson: We believe Goody Glover deserves greater recognition as the victim of the first fatal witch trial in Boston following the 1656 hanging of Ann Hibbens.
Sarah Jack: Thirty-two years had gone by without a supposed witch being executed in Massachusetts.
Josh Hutchinson: And nobody would ever be convicted of witchcraft or hanged for that crime in Boston again, as the 1692 and 1693 witchcraft convictions and hangings all occurred in Salem.
Sarah Jack: So, who was Goody Glover, the last person hanged for witchcraft in Boston, and what were the accusations against her?
Josh Hutchinson: The earliest source on the events is a letter from minister Joshua Moody to eminent Puritan divine Increase Mather. Dated October 4th, 1688, the letter was written to inform Mather, [00:02:00] who was then in England, of the astonishing events occurring in the household of John Goodwin of Boston.
Sarah Jack: The letter begins, quote, "We have a very strange thing among us, which we know not what to make of, except it be witchcraft, as we think it must needs be."
Josh Hutchinson: Moody explained that "three or four of children of one Goodwin, a Mason, that have been for some weeks grievously tormented, crying out of head, eyes, tongue, teeth, breaking their neck, back, thighs, knees, legs, feet, toes, etc. And then they roar out, 'oh my head, oh my neck.' And from one part to another, the pain runs almost as fast as I write it."
Sarah Jack: And yet, Moody reported that, quote, "when the pain is over, they eat, drink, walk, play, laugh, as at other times. They are generally well at night."
Josh Hutchinson: Moody said that many people observed a day of prayer at the Goodwin home,and he and Charles Morton, Charlestown's minister, each prayed for an hour.
Sarah Jack: Sometime after these [00:03:00] prayers, Goodwife and Goodman Goodwinexpressed that they suspected "an old woman and her daughter living hard by."
Josh Hutchinson: A complaint was filed with the authorities, and the two suspects were jailed.
Sarah Jack: After the women were arrested, the children were well, but only when they were away from home.
Josh Hutchinson: The four afflicted children were placed in neighbors' homes, as they had terrible fits whenever they entered their own house.
Sarah Jack: Moody wrote, "we cannot but think the devil has a hand in it by some instrument."
Josh Hutchinson: Following this letter, the next document referencing the case of Goody Glover is Samuel Sewell's diary entry for November 16, 1688, when he recorded, quote, "about eleven M, the widow Glover is drawn to be hanged. Mr. Larkin seems to be marshal, the constables attend, and Justice Bullivant is there."
Sarah Jack: This is our first indication that Goody Glover had been widowed, and in lieu of a trial record, this is the only known document from 1688 [00:04:00] to tell us the outcome of the case.
Josh Hutchinson: Goody Glover and the Goodwin family next turn up in Cotton Mather's book, Memorable Providences, which was published in 1689.
Sarah Jack: In this book, Mather gives a fairly detailed account of the events leading up to Goody Glover's execution.
Josh Hutchinson: Mather begins the book by extolling John Goodwin's virtues.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "There dwells at this time in the south part of Boston a sober and pious man, whose name is John Goodwin, whose trade is that of a mason, and whose wife, to which a good report gives a share with him in all the characters of virtue, has made him the father of six now living children. Of these children, all but the eldest, who works with his father at his calling, and the youngest, who lives yet upon the breast of its mother, have labored under the direful effects of no less palpable than stupendous witchcraft."
Josh Hutchinson: Mather explains that the oldest son also suffered from pains and continues, "but these [00:05:00] four children mentioned were handled in so sad and strange a manner as has given matter of discourse and wonder to all the country and of history not unworthy to be considered by more than all the serious or the curious readers in this new English world."
Sarah Jack: According to Mather, the oldest of the afflicted children was about 13 years old, and the youngest was about a third as old, so around four.
Josh Hutchinson: The children, quote, "had enjoyed a religious education and answered it with a very towardly ingenuity. They had an observable affection unto divine and sacred things, and those of them that were capable of it seemed to have such a resentment of their eternal concernments as is not altogether usual."
Sarah Jack: He continued, "their parents also kept them to a continual employment, which did more than deliver them from the temptations of idleness, and as young as they were, they took a delight in it. It may be as much as they should have done."
Josh Hutchinson: "In a word, [00:06:00] such was the whole temper and carriage of the children, that there cannot easily be anything more unreasonable than to imagine that a design to dissemble could cause them to fall into any of their odd fits, though there should not have happened, as there did, a thousand things, wherein it was perfectly impossible for any dissimulation of theirs to produce what scores of spectators were amazed at."
Sarah Jack: This belief in the piety of the children and parents perhaps goes some way to explain Mather's gullibility, which will be apparent time and time again throughout his book.
Josh Hutchinson: In Mather's account, the witchcraft scare began in the summer, shortly after some of the Goodwins' linen went missing. The oldest Goodwin daughter, age 13, confronted the unnamed laundress, who was the daughter of Goody Glover.
Sarah Jack: Goody Glover was incensedby the allegations of the theft against her daughter.
Josh Hutchinson: According to Mather, Goody Glover was, quote, "an ignorant and a [00:07:00] scandalous old woman in the neighborhood."
Sarah Jack: Her, quote, "miserable husband before he died had sometimes complained of her, that she was undoubtedly a witch, and that whenever his head was laid, she would quickly arrive onto the punishments due to such a one."
Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, Mather does not tell us the name of Goody Glover's husband or give us his occupation or any other identifying information.
Sarah Jack: Mather has a frustrating tendency to leave out such details.
Josh Hutchinson: Continuing Mather's account, quote, "this woman in her daughter's defense bestowed very bad language upon the girl that put her to the question, immediately upon which the poor child became variously indisposed in her health and visited with strange fits beyond those that attend an epilepsy or a catalepsy or those that they call the diseases of astonishment."
Sarah Jack: Soon afterward, the girls' siblings became ill with the same symptoms. Mather writes, "within a few weeks, they were all for [00:08:00] tortured everywhere in a manner so very grievous that it would have broke a heart of stone to have seen their agonies."
Josh Hutchinson: This is a pretty typical witchcraft accusation. Someone has an argument, harsh words are used, and a misfortune occurs.
Sarah Jack: That same recipe is repeated again and again through accounts of both the witch trials of the past and the witch trials of the present. Quarrels with neighbors can have severe consequences when witchcraft is then suspected for whatever misfortune next visits the aggrieved parties.
Josh Hutchinson: Like in Salem four years later, those concerned about the Goodwins' children's afflictions consulted medical authorities. As Mather writes, "skillful physicians were consulted for their help, and particularly our worthy and prudent friend, Dr. Thomas Oakes, who found himself so affronted by the distempers of the children that he concluded nothing but a hellish witchcraft could be the original of these maladies."

Josh Hutchinson: [00:09:00] Quote, "and that which yet more confirmed such apprehension was that for one good while the children were tormented just in the same part of their bodies, all at the same time together, and though they saw and heard not one another's complaints, though, likewise, their pains and sprains were swift like lightning, yet when suppose the neck or the hand or their back of one was racked, so it was at that instant with the other two."
Josh Hutchinson: Like with the story of Salem Village physician William Griggs telling Samuel Parris that his daughter, Betty, and his niece, Abigail Williams, were under an evil hand, we have a medical professional simply giving up and declaring that the problem was beyond his comprehension, so it must be witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "the variety of their tortures increased continually, and though about nine or ten at night they always had a release from their miseries, and ate and slept all night for the most part indifferently well, yet in the daytime they were handled with so many sorts of ails that it would [00:10:00] require of us almost as much time to relate them all as it did of them to endure them."
Josh Hutchinson: Years later, Beverly minister John Hale wrote about the Salem Village afflicted persons. In A Modest Enquiry into the Nature of Witchcraft, he writes, "I will not enlarge in the description of their cruel sufferings because they were in all things afflicted as bad as John Goodwin's children at Boston in the year 1689. He means 1688. So that he that will read Mr. Mather's Book of Memorable Providences, page 3, etc., may read part of what these children and afterwards sundry grown persons suffered by the hand of Satan at Salem Village and parts adjacent, Anno 1691 1692. Yet there was more in these sufferings than in those at Boston, by pins invisibly stuck into their flesh, pricking with irons, as in part published in a book printed 1693 viz. The Wonders of the Invisible World."
Sarah Jack: So we see [00:11:00] that even in the time of the Salem Witch Trials, the afflictions then were compared to those of the Goodwin children, which themselves can be compared to many earlier afflictions supposedly resulting from witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: Back to Memorable Providences,
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "sometimes they would be deaf, sometimes dumb, and sometimes blind, and often all this at once."
Sarah Jack: As in Salem, these things could be faked and often occurred at convenient times.
Josh Hutchinson: Mather writes, "one while their tongues would be drawn down their throats, another while they would be pulled out upon their chins to a prodigious length."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "they would have their mouths opened unto such a wideness that their jaws went out of joint, and anon, they would clap together again with a force like that of a strong spring lock."
Josh Hutchinson: So were these just childish antics or did the children truly lack control over their bodies?
Sarah Jack: And there's [00:12:00] more. "The same would happen to their shoulder blades, and their elbows, and hand wrists, and several of their joints."
Josh Hutchinson: "They would, at times, lie in a benumbed condition, and be drawn together as those that are tied neck and heels, and presently be stretched out, yea, drawn backwards to such a degree that it was feared the very skin of their bellies would have cracked."
Sarah Jack: Children are more flexible than adults. Were they faking?
Josh Hutchinson: According to Mather, strange behavior was not all that afflicted the children. "They would make most piteous outcries, that they were cut with knives and struck with blows that they could not bear."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "their necks would be broken, so that their neck bone would seem dissolved unto them that felt after it, and yet, on the sudden, it would become again so stiff that there was no stirring of their heads. Yea, their heads would be twisted almost around, and if main force at any time obstructed a dangerous motion [00:13:00] which they seemed to be upon, they would roar exceedingly."
Josh Hutchinson: "Thus, they lay some weeks most pitiful spectacles, and this while as a further demonstration of witchcraft in these horrid effects, when I went to prayer by one of them that was very desirous to hear what I said, the child utterly lost her hearing till our prayer was over."
Sarah Jack: How convenient a time to lose her hearing.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. These kids were allergic to work and religious practice.
Sarah Jack: Mather writes, "it was a religious family that these afflictions happened unto, and none but a religious contrivance to obtain relief would have been welcome to them."
Josh Hutchinson: "Many superstitious proposals were made unto them by persons that were I know not who nor what, with arguments fetched from I know not how much necessity and experience, but the distressed parents rejected all such counsels with a gracious resolution to oppose devils with no other weapons but prayers and [00:14:00] tears unto him that was the chaining of them, and to try first whether graces were not the best things to encounter witchcrafts with."
Sarah Jack: As with the controversial witch cake baked in Salem, using the supernatural to explain the supernatural was frowned upon by religious authorities in Massachusetts. It was considered going to the devil for help against the devil.
Josh Hutchinson: Mather's account continues, "accordingly, they requested the four ministers of Boston, with the minister of Charlestown, to keep a day of prayer at their thus haunted house, which they did in the company of some devout people there. Immediately upon this day, the youngest of the four children was delivered and never felt any trouble as afore. But there was yet a greater effect of these applications unto our God."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "the report of the calamities of the family for which we were thus concerned arrived now unto the ears of the magistrates, who presently and prudently applied themselves with a just vigor to [00:15:00] inquire into the story."
Josh Hutchinson: "The father of the children complained of his neighbor, the suspected ill woman, whose name was Glover. And she, being sent for by the justices, gave such a wretched account of herself that they saw cause to commit her unto the jailer's custody."
Sarah Jack: Note that Mather does not give Goody Glover or her husband a first name.
Josh Hutchinson: According to Mather, Glover herself told the magistrates whatever they needed to hear to lock her up.
Sarah Jack: Mather writes, "Goodwin had no proof that could have done her any hurt, but the hag had not power to deny her interest in the enchantment of the children, and when she was asked whether she believed there was a god, her answer was too blasphemous and horrible for any pen of mine to mention."
Josh Hutchinson: Quote, "an experiment was made whether she could recite the Lord's Prayer, and it was found that though clause after clause was most carefully repeated unto her, yet when she said it after them that prompted her, she could not possibly avoid making nonsense [00:16:00] of it, with some ridiculous deprivations. This experience I had the curiosity since to see made upon two more, and it had the same event."
Sarah Jack: Here, we encounter the confusion over what was an acceptable experiment. Those proposed to the Goodwins earlier were not worthy. However, the Lord's Prayer Test was acceptable here and in the Salem Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: According to Mather, "upon the commitment of this extraordinary woman, all the children had some present ease, until one, related unto her, accidentally meeting one or two of them, entertained them with her blessing, that is, railing, upon which three of them fell ill again, as they were before."
Sarah Jack: This is, again, similar to the Salem Witch Hunt, when the afflicted were momentarily freed from suffering whenever a suspect was jailed.
Josh Hutchinson: But would then relapse upon seeing the suspect in court.
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "it was not long before the witch, thus in the trap, was brought upon her [00:17:00] trial, at which, through the efficacy of a charm, I suppose, used upon her by one or some of her crew, the court could receive answers from her in none but the Irish, which was her native language, although she understood the English very well and had accustomed her whole family to none but that language in her former conversation, and therefore the communication between the bench and the bar was now chiefly conveyed by two honest and faithful men that were interpreters."
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's interesting that Mather believes witches charmed Goody Glover into only speaking Irish at trial. He may have actually exaggerated or misunderstood how well she understood English. Perhaps she couldn't actually follow what the officials were saying to her.
Sarah Jack: Unfortunately, the two "honest and faithful men" that were interpreters are never named.
Josh Hutchinson: Mather goes on, "it was long before she could, with any direct [00:18:00] answers, plead unto her indictment. And when she did plead, it was with confession rather than denial of her guilt."
Sarah Jack: " Order was given to search the old woman's house, from whence there was brought into the court several small images, or poppets or babies, made of rags and stuffed with goat's hair and other such ingredients. When these were produced, the vile woman acknowledged that her way to torment the objects of her malice was by wetting of her fingers with her spittle and stroking of those little images."
Josh Hutchinson: Poppets were commonly used in image magic. When used to represent a person, a poppet was believed to be a very effective way of manipulating a target's health.
Sarah Jack: A magic user could burn a poppet, prick it with pins, cut it, stroke it, or squeeze it,
Sarah Jack: and like effects would supposedly be produced in the personrepresented by the image.
Josh Hutchinson: Memorable Providences continues, "the abused children were then present, and the woman still kept stooping and shrinking as one that was almost [00:19:00] pressed to death with the mighty weight upon her.But one of the images being brought unto her, immediately she started up after an odd manner and took it into her hand, but she had no sooner taken it than one of the children fell into sad fits before the whole assembly."
Sarah Jack: Okay, so I'm thinking about this. These stories make it sound like she's the only woman in town that had a poppet.Especially if there is this language barrier and everybody else is poppeting each other when they're mad. And that's her poppet and they're handling her poppet. She's going to take it. She might wet it and smooth it down, if they were being rough with it. I'm just thinking about what was her experience. What was her perception of the poppet versus what Cotton is making it sound like?
Josh Hutchinson: And the poppet could even have symbolized something else for her, could have been represented one of [00:20:00] her saints, or maybe it represented a loved one and she wanted to be nice to it.It's really unclear, they don't describe the poppet, for us, and poppets were basically just dolls, so any kind of doll that you had in your house for your child, or whatever it was for, could be interpreted as being this magical tool.
Sarah Jack: Quote, " this the judges had their just apprehensions at, and carefully causing the repetition of the experiment found again the same event of it."
Josh Hutchinson: This is interesting because now it's the magistrates doing the experimentation.
Sarah Jack: We hear the word experiment a lot when we're looking at some of the Connecticut Witch Trials, too. Because they would do the experiments with Ann Cole? Oh, yeah.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. Not [00:21:00] just that, they're playing with proverbial fire. Who knows what a real witch could have done to the children with that poppet? If it truly were possible to use one as feared.
Josh Hutchinson: Continuing, quote, "they asked her whether she had any to stand by her. She replied she had, and looking very pertly in the air, she added, 'No, he's gone.'"
Sarah Jack: Quote, "and she then confessed that she had one who was her prince, with whom she maintained I know not what communion, for which cause, the night after, she was
Josh Hutchinson: heard expostulating with a devil, for his thus deserting her, telling him that because he had served her so basely and falsely, she had confessed all."
Josh Hutchinson: Here Mather bothers me because he assumes that she's speaking to a devil rather than God, a saint, or an angel, or any of these other entities she could have been addressing, which would have been a totally logical assumption.
Sarah Jack: He [00:22:00] proceeds, "however, to make all clear, the court appointed five or six physicians one evening to examine her very strictly whether she were not crazed in her intellectuals and had not procured to herself by folly and madness the reputation of the witch."
Josh Hutchinson: "Diverse hours did they spend with her, and in all that while, no discourse came from her but what was pertinent and agreeable, particularly when they asked her what she thought would become of her soul, she replied, 'You ask me a very solemn question, and I cannot well tell what to say to it.'"
Sarah Jack: What if she just said, what?
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, she might have just said that, and they said that she said what they said she said.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "she owned herself a Roman Catholic and could recite her Pater Noster in Latin very readily. But there was one clause or two always too hard for her, whereof she said she could not repeat it and if she [00:23:00] might have all the world. In the upshot, the doctors returned her Compos Mentis and sentence of death was passed upon her."
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Mather doesn't tell us what language was used with Goody Glover in her mental examination.
Sarah Jack: Based upon a later comment on the rarity of her use of English, we can probably assume that the sanity evaluation was conducted in Gaelic through the interpreters Mather mentioned earlier.
Josh Hutchinson: The book continues, "diverse days were passed between her being arraigned and condemned. In this time, one of her neighbors had been giving in her testimony of what another of her neighbors had upon her death related concerning her."
Josh Hutchinson: Quote, "it seems one Howen, about six years before, had been cruelly bewitched to death. But before she died, she called one Hughes onto her, telling her that she laid her death to the charge of Glover,
Sarah Jack: that she had seen Glover sometimes come down her chimney, that she would remember this, [00:24:00] for within the six years, she might have occasion to declare it.
Josh Hutchinson: But it appears that Hughes never made any allegations against Glover prior to 1688, and she may have regretted coming forward then, as we'll see.
Sarah Jack: In Mather's account, quote, "this Hughes, now preparing her testimony, immediately one of her children, a fine boy, well grown towards youth, was taken ill, just in the same woeful and surprising manner that Goodwin's children were."
Josh Hutchinson: "One night particularly, the boy said he saw a black thing with a blue cap in the room, tormenting of him, and he complained most bitterly of a hand put into the bed to pull out his bowels."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "the next day, the mother of the boy went on to Glover in the prison and asked her why she tortured her poor lad at such a wicked rate."
Josh Hutchinson: Quote, "this witch replied that she did it because of wrong done to herself and her daughter. She denied, as well as she might, that she had done [00:25:00] her any wrong."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "well then, says Glover, let me see your child and he shall be well again."
Josh Hutchinson: Quote, "Glover went on and told her of her own accord, 'I was at your house last night.' Says Hughes, 'in what shape?' Says Glover, 'as a black thing with a blue cap.'"
Sarah Jack: " Says Hughes, 'what did you do there?' Says Glover, 'with my hand in the bed, I tried to pull out the boy's bowels, but I could not.'"
Josh Hutchinson: "They parted, but the next day Hughes, appearing at court, had her boy with her, and Glover passing by the boy expressed her good wishes for him, though I suppose his parent had no design of any mighty respect unto the hag by having him with her there. But the boy had no more indispositions after the condemnation of the woman."
Sarah Jack: Of course, it would have been Hughes, not Glover, who told the account of Glover saying that she was at Hughes' house that night, and it's unclear how Hughes would even have communicated with Glover if her jailhouse [00:26:00] visits really took place.
Josh Hutchinson: How is she speaking the Gaelic? Mather goes on to speak of his own visits to Glover. "While the miserable old woman was under condemnation, I did myself twice give a visit unto her. She never denied the guilt of the witchcraft charged upon her, but she confessed very little about the circumstances of her confederacies with the devils. Only she said that she used to be at meetings, which her prince and four more were present at."
Sarah Jack: Quote,
Sarah Jack: As for those four, she told who they were, and for her prince, her account plainly was that he was the devil."
Josh Hutchinson: For reasons known only to Mather, he never revealed the names of the four confederates of Goody Glover, so we do not know who else was named as a witch in Boston in 1688.
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "she entertained me with nothing but Irish, which language I had not learning enough to understand without an interpreter." I'm so mad right now. She had to have [00:27:00] an interpreter, but I'm just saying an interpreter was fine enough for her, but not for him. I'm going to start over. "She entertained me with nothing but Irish, which language I had not learned enough to understand without an interpreter. Only one time, when I was representing unto her that, and how her prince had cheated her, as herself would quickly find, she replied, I think in English, and with passion, too, 'If it be so, I am sorry for that.'"
Josh Hutchinson: This is the only time Mather, or anyone else, quotes Glover directly.
Sarah Jack: And he thinks it was in English. And he's so certain, he's so certain of everything else. How often would he say, I'm not sure? So we do not have her side of the story at all.
Josh Hutchinson: We really don't. Mather continues, "I offered many questions unto her, unto which, after long silence, she told me she would fain give me a full answer, but they would not [00:28:00] give her leave. It was demanded, they, who is that they? And she returned that they were her spirits or her saints, for they say the same word in Irish signifies both. And at another time, she included her two mistresses, as she called them in that day. But when it was inquired who those two were, she fell into a rage and would be no more urged."
Sarah Jack: Like I can really see here how he was persecuting her religiously because he is saying, he is appropriating the devil and spirits ontowhat her faith is. He knowingly was doing this and portraying her as speaking with the devil, when he understood Catholicism.
Josh Hutchinson: He understood Catholicism a lot better than he's letting on. He was a Harvard trained religious scholar, so of course he knew. And to say that, [00:29:00] you know, saints and spirits, it's the same word. I don't know if that's even true, but, he obviously should know that when she's talking about saints, that's something different than devils.
Sarah Jack: He continues, "I set before her the necessity and the equity of her breaking her covenant with hell and giving herself to the Lord Jesus Christ by an everlasting covenant."
Sarah Jack: Oh, my word, every time I get into these quotes, I'm getting really mad because that isn't the covenant that her faith would have been directly based on. Her covenant isn't broken by hell, nor, that's just not Catholicism.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, he's saying that she has a covenant with hell, and she's saying that she has a covenant with God, but it's Roman Catholic God.
Sarah Jack: " And giving herself to the Lord Jesus Christ by an everlasting covenant, to which her answer was that I spoke a very reasonable thing, [00:30:00] but she could not do it, I asked her whether she would consent or desire to be prayed for. To that she said, if prayer would do her any good, she could pray for herself."
Josh Hutchinson: "And when it was again propounded, she said she could not unless her spirits, or angels, would give her leave. However, against her will I prayed with her, which if it were a fault, it was in excess of pity."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "when I had done, she thanked me with many good words, but I was no sooner out of her sight than she took a stone, a long and slender stone, and with her finger and spittle fell to tormenting it, though whom or what she meant, I had the mercy never to understand."
Josh Hutchinson: Mather doesn't say how he knew what she did after he was out of her sight, but presumably the jailer or somebody else present told him, but still, how is she tormenting this stone by rubbing it with her [00:31:00] finger?
Sarah Jack: It was a fidget.
Josh Hutchinson: It's her fidget, her fidget stone.
Sarah Jack: He forcibly prayed for her against her will.
Josh Hutchinson: And Mather continues, "when this witch was going to her execution, she said the children should not be relieved by her death, for others had a hand in it as well as she, and she named one among the rest, whom it might have been thought natural affection would have advised the concealing of."
Sarah Jack: This comment about natural affection has contributed to the belief that she may have been speaking of her daughter there.
Josh Hutchinson: She may not have even been trying to say that her daughter, or whoever it was that she actually named, was a witch. It might have just been a misunderstanding.
Sarah Jack: Mather goes on, quote, "it came to pass accordingly that the three children continued in their furnace as before, and it grew rather seven times hotter than it was."
Josh Hutchinson: " All their former ails pursued them [00:32:00] still, with an addition of, tis not easy to tell how many, more, but such as gave more sensible demonstrations of an enchantment growing very far towards a possession by evil spirits."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "the children in their fits would still cry out upon they and them as the authors of all their harm. But who that they and them were? They were not able to declare."
Josh Hutchinson: "At last, the boy obtained at some times a sight of some shapes in the room. There were three or four of them, the names of which the child would pretend at certain seasons to tell, only the name of one who was counted a sager hag than the rest, he still so stammered at that he was put upon some periphrasis in describing her."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "a blow at the place where the boy beheld the specter was always felt by the boy himself in the part of his body that answered what might be stricken at. And this, though his back was turned, which was once and again, so exactly [00:33:00] tried that there could be
Josh Hutchinson: no collusion in the business."
Josh Hutchinson: "But as a blow at the apparition always hurt him, so it always helped him too, for after the agonies, which a push or stab of that had put him to, were over, as in a minute or two the boy would have a respite from his fits a considerable while, and the hobgoblins disappear.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "It is very credibly reported that a wound was this way given to an obnoxious woman in the town, whose name I will not expose, for we should be tenderer in such relations, lest we wrong the reputation of the innocent, by stories not enough inquired into."
Josh Hutchinson: And here he's calling Goody Glover every name in the book, the 17th century, Puritan book. Except for, yeah, he doesn't tell us her real name and that he's telling us, 'Oh, we should be cautious and not spread stories about people without really knowing,' and I guess that's why he didn't [00:34:00] tell any of the four accomplices' names, but like, where's he drawing the line here? He's like, it's this obstinate, older Irish woman, who's got no husband alive to protect her, so I'll go after her. But like these other ones, he draws a line somehow.
Sarah Jack: And you know he, in his mind, he was going after the Catholic saints as well.
Josh Hutchinson: And, also once again, we see parallels with Salem with an afflicted person seeing the disembodied specters of witches and others striking at thin air in their attempts to remove these tormentors.
Sarah Jack: Of course, the boy was the only one who could see the specter, so he could easily have told them that they had hit the specter's arm or leg or head. They would have been none the wiser. It really didn't matter that his back was turned.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. All he really had to do was guess when they hit the witch by listening to what sounds they were making. [00:35:00] And then he'd say, 'Oh, you've got her again. That time you got her arm and, Oh, my arm hurts too.'
Josh Hutchinson: Mather continues, "the fits of the children yet more arrived unto such motions as were beyond the efficacy of any natural distemper in the world."
Sarah Jack: So those afflicted girls in Salem, they knew for sure expressing afflictions was not natural distemper, like that, it would be taken as witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: There was no doubt. They already knew. They had the playbook written by one Cotton Mather himself, but also writings of his father, Increase, before. This was the established playbook of how to behave when you were bewitched.
Sarah Jack: This is where it gets fun. Quote, "they would bark at one another like dogs. And again, purr like so many cats."
Josh Hutchinson: "They would sometimes complain that they were in a red hot oven, sweating and panting at the same [00:36:00] time unreasonably. Anon, they would say, cold water was thrown upon them, at which they would shiver very much."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "They would cry out of dismal blows, with great cudgels
Josh Hutchinson: laid upon them. And though we saw no cudgels nor blow, yet we could see the marks left by them in red streaks upon their bodies afterwards."
Josh Hutchinson: "And one of them would be roasted on an invisible spit, run into his mouth and out at his foot, he lying and rolling and groaning as if it had been so in the most sensible manner in the world. And then he would shriek that knives were cutting of him."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "sometimes also he would have his head so forcibly, though not visibly, nailed into the floor that it was as much as a strong man could do to pull it up."
Josh Hutchinson: "One while they would all be so limber that it was judged every bone of them could be bent. Another while they would be so stiff that not a joint of them could be stirred."
Sarah Jack: Much similar imagery was used during the Salem Witch Trial. [00:37:00] During the Salem Witch Hunt, afflicted Mercy Lewis even used the image of a person roasting on a spit in her testimony against Martha Cory.
Josh Hutchinson: And the story continues, "they would sometimes be as though they were mad, and then they would climb over high fences beyond the imagination of them that looked after them."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "yea, they would fly like geese, and be carried with an incredible swiftness through the air, having but just their toes now and then upon the ground, and their arms waved like the wings of a bird," whish, whish. "One of them in the house of a kind neighbor and gentleman, Mr. Willis, flew the length of the room, about twenty foot, and flew just into an infant's high armed chair, as 'tis affirmed, none seeing her feet all the way touch the floor."
Josh Hutchinson: She's just moving really fast. In his book, A True Narrative of Some Remarkable Passages, Deodat Lawson wrote that Abigail [00:38:00] Williams, during the Salem Witch Hunt, " was at first hurried with violence to and fro in the room, though Mrs. Ingersoll endeavored to hold her, sometimes making as if she would fly, stretching up her arms as high as she could, and crying, 'whish, whish, whish,' several times."
Sarah Jack: The afflicted persons of Salem and surrounding communities had definitely imbibed the stories of the Goodwin children and other afflicted children.
Josh Hutchinson: Memorable Providences continues, "many ways did the devils take to make the children do mischief both to themselves and others, but through the singular providence of God, they always failed in their attempts."
Sarah Jack: "For they could never essay the doing of any harm, unless there were somebody at hand that might prevent it, and seldom without first shrieking out, 'they say, I must do such a thing.'"
Josh Hutchinson: How convenient.
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "diverse times they went to strike furious blows at their tenderest and dearest friends, or to fling them downstairs [00:39:00] when they had them at the top. But the warning from the mouths of the children themselves would still anticipate what the devils did intend."
Josh Hutchinson: "They diverse times were very near burning or drowning of themselves, but the children themselves, by their own pitiful and seasonable cries for help, still procured their deliverance, which make me to consider whether the little ones had not their angels, in the plain sense of our savior's intimation."
Sarah Jack: So, their angels are okay?
Josh Hutchinson: Their angels are okay. Hers are not.
Sarah Jack: They either had angels, or they were stopping themselves just short of inflicting any real harm.
Josh Hutchinson: Mather adds, "sometimes when they were tying their own neck clothes, their compelled hands miserably strangled themselves, till perhaps the standers by gave some relief unto them."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "but if any small mischief happened to be done where they were,
Josh Hutchinson: as the tearing or dirtying of a garment, the falling of a cup, the breaking of a glass, or the like, they would rejoice [00:40:00] extremely and fall into a pleasure and laughter very extraordinary."
Josh Hutchinson: I mean, who doesn't?
Sarah Jack: Quote, "all which things compared with the temper of the children, when they are themselves, may suggest some very peculiar thoughts unto us."
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one of the peculiar thoughts occurring to me is that the children were faking. Though it is possible they may have been going through some stress-induced psychogenic illness, which is a theory about the Salem Witch Trials as well, and this illness manifested in these strange behaviors because of this genuine fear of witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: And my laughter and making fun is of the adults, not that the children had no way to work through the stresses that they were feeling. I just want to be clear on that. This is about the narration of the adults about what was going on with the children whose lives were wonderful.
Sarah Jack: Cotton
Josh Hutchinson: [00:41:00] Mathers, gullibility, and, just believes anything.
Sarah Jack: We'll never really know why the children did these things. As far as we can tell, nobody did any where are they now type follow ups years later.
Josh Hutchinson: And none of the sources ever quotes the children themselves.
Sarah Jack: They're not named by the sources. They're named later.
Sarah Jack: Mather continues, "they were not in a constant torture for some weeks, but were a little quiet, unless upon some incidental
Josh Hutchinson: provocations, upon which the devils would handle them like tigers
Josh Hutchinson: and wound them in a manner very horrible."
Josh Hutchinson: "Particularly upon the last reproof of their parents for any unfit thing they said or did, most grievous, woeful, heartbreaking agonies would they fall into."
Sarah Jack: I can just see the eyes welling up with tears, just like that, Josh. Yes. Quote, "if any useful thing were to be done to them or by them, they would have [00:42:00] all sorts of troubles fall upon them."
Josh Hutchinson: Seriously, do these children just not want to work or to get in trouble with their parents?
Sarah Jack: Were they afraid of what punishment their parents would dole out? That's just a question, as we have no way of answering that.
Josh Hutchinson: And Mather writes, "it would sometimes cost one of them an hour or two to be undressed in the evening or dressed in the morning. For if anyone went to untie a string or undo a button about them, or the contrary, they would be twisted into such postures as made the thing impossible."
Sarah Jack: That sounds like toddler transition frustrations that we all see children do in 2024.
Sarah Jack: "And at whiles they would be so managed in their beds that no bedclothes could for an hour or two be laid upon them, or could they go to wash their hands without having them clasped so oddly together there was no doing of it."
Josh Hutchinson: It's just those troublesome kids at bedtime.
Sarah Jack: [00:43:00] Wash your hands! Wash your hands! Did you wash your hands? That's all that is.
Josh Hutchinson: No. Did you just run the water and not wash your hands? Yes, "but when their friends were near tired with waiting, anon, they might do what they would unto them."
Sarah Jack: There were limits.
Sarah Jack: "Whatever work they were bid to do, they would be so snapped in the member which was to do it, that they, with grief, still desisted from it."
Josh Hutchinson: " If one ordered them to rub a clean table, they were able to do it, without any disturbance. If to rub a dirty table, presently they would, with many torments, be made incapable."
Sarah Jack: I can't believe he wrote this down!
Josh Hutchinson: It's just troublesome. Did he never deal with his own children? He had plenty of them. He was 25 or 26 when he wrote this, but he already had several children.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "and sometimes, though but seldom, they were kept from eating their meals by having their [00:44:00] teeth set when they carried anything onto their mouths."
Josh Hutchinson: But even worse than work, another horror awaited the children.
Sarah Jack: Religion was even worse for them than chores.
Josh Hutchinson: As Mather writes, "nothing in the world would so discompose them as a religious exercise."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "if there were any discourse of God or Christ, or any of these things which are not seen, and are eternal, they would be cast into intolerable anguishes."
Josh Hutchinson: Once, those two worthy ministers, Mr. Fisk and Mr. Thatcher, bestowing some gracious counsels on the boy, whom they then found at a neighbor's house, he immediately lost his hearing, so that he heard not one word, but just the last word of all they said."
Josh Hutchinson: How does he hear only the last word? He's waiting for them to stop, obviously, and then he knows what last word they said because he was waiting for them to stop.
Sarah Jack: Was it Deodat's message where they were like, I [00:45:00] just missed that whole thing?
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah,Abigail Williams is saying, if you had a doctrine, I don't know what it was.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "much more, all praying to God and reading of his word would occasion a very terrible vexation to them. They would then stop their own ears with their own hands and roar and shriek and holler to drown the voice of the devotion."
Josh Hutchinson: "Yea, if anyone in the room took up a Bible to look into it, though the children could see nothing of it as being in a crowd of spectators or having their faces another way, yet would they be in wonderful miseries till the Bible were laid aside."
Sarah Jack: "In short, no good thing must be then endured near those children, which, while they are themselves, do love every good thing in a measure that proclaims in them the fear of God."
Josh Hutchinson: And this is how Mather ends his account.
Sarah Jack: But Mather does not conclude his section on Goody Glover here. Instead, he continues with another telling of the story.
Josh Hutchinson: He included a [00:46:00] section supposedly written by John Goodwin himself.
Sarah Jack: Mather labeled this section Mantissa, a term for a minor addition to a text, and it's basically a retelling of the story from Goodwin's perspective.
Josh Hutchinson: "In the year 1688, about midsummer, it pleased the Lord to visit one of my children with a sore visitation, and she was not only tormented in her body, but was in great distress of mind, crying out that she was in the dark concerning her soul's estate, and that she had misspent her precious time, she and we thinking her time was near at an end."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "hearing those shrieks and groans, which did not only pierce the ears but hearts of her poor parents, now was a time for me to consider with myself, and to look into my own heart and life, and see how matters did there stand between God and my soul, and see wherefore the Lord was thus contending with me. And upon inquiry, I found cause to judge myself and to justify the Lord."
Josh Hutchinson: " This affliction continuing some time, the Lord saw good [00:47:00] then to double the affliction in smiting down another child, and that which was most heartbreaking of all, and did double this double affliction, was that it was apparent and judged by all that saw them, that the devil and his instruments had a hand in it."
Josh Hutchinson: A
Sarah Jack: double double. A
Josh Hutchinson: double double.
Sarah Jack: And trouble.
Sarah Jack: "The consideration of this was most dreadful.I thought of what David saidin second Samuel 24:14. If he feared so to fall into the hands of men, oh, then to think of the horror of our condition to be in the hands of devils and witches."
Josh Hutchinson: "This our doleful condition moved us to call to our friend staff. Pity on us for God's hand had touched us."
Sarah Jack: "I was ready to say that no one's affliction was like mine, that my little house that should be a little Bethel for God to dwell in should be made a den for devils, and those little bodies that should be temples for the Holy Ghost to dwell in should be thus harassed and abused by the devil and his cursed
Josh Hutchinson: [00:48:00] brood."
Josh Hutchinson: " But now this twice-doubled affliction is doubled again. Two more of my children are smitten down. Oh, the cries, the shrieks, the tortures of these poor children. Doctors cannot help. Parents weep and lament over them but cannot ease them."
Sarah Jack: " Now, I considering my affliction to be more thanordinary, it did certainly call for more than ordinary prayer."
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, you might be wondering why he's talking about his affliction when the kids are the ones suffering. And, well, it wasn't uncommon for the men of the time as heads of the households to feel like any misfortune that befell their family was a judgment on them in particular. Cotton Mather behaved the same way, and so did Samuel Sewell, which was why Samuel Sewell did an apology for the Salem witch trials. um, sort of.
Sarah Jack: Thus the gall of John Goodwin to act like he was the one afflicted [00:49:00] when it was his own children who allegedly suffered pain.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. What gall? What nerve? His children are suffering. He's like, Oh, God has beef with me. What's this beef with me about?
Josh Hutchinson: And Goodwin continues, quote, "I acquainted Mr. Allen, Mr. Moody, Mr. Willard, and Mr. C. Mather, the four ministers of the town with it, and Mr. Morton of Charlestown, earnestly desiring them that they, with some other praying people of God, would meet at my house, and there be earnest with God on the behalf of us and our children, which they, I thank them for it, readily attended with great fervency of spirit, but as for my part, my heart was ready to sink to hear and see those doleful sights."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "now I thought that I had greatly neglected my duty to my children, and not admonishing and instructing of them, and that God was hereby calling my sins to mind, to slay my children." So which is it? Is it God or witches? [00:50:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. he can't make up his mind. And, you have to wonder, were they thinking as Cotton Mather referenced earlier, their symptoms were approaching diabolical possession, so they could have been possessed or they could have been bewitched, or it could have been a judgment of God. Either way, ultimately in the Puritan belief of the time, it would have come back to Godjudging them in some way. Whether he used, let the devil and his witches have their way for a little while as a test or judgment, He's the one who ultimately has the power in the situation. Continuing," then I pondered of that place in Numbers 23:23. 'Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel.'"
Sarah Jack: Quote, "and [00:51:00] now I thought I had broke covenant with God, not only in one respect, but in many. But it pleased the Lord to bring that to mind in Hebrews 8:12, 'for I will be merciful, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.'"
Sarah Jack: So then why is Goody Glover getting the ultimate punishment? Yeah. This is all within the household in between God. In his broken covenant, Goodwin's broken covenant with him, what, why are they hanging Goody Glover?
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Yeah. Why? Fear. Just lack of understanding because the true will of God was unreadable.But you could go after the devil's instruments. couldn't really go, you couldn't take the devil to court. You couldn't take God to court and say, just to ask him, 'what did I do? I'm sorry, I want to reform.' [00:52:00] You couldn't even do that. Because his mind is unknowable. But you're afraid of the earthly, even as much as you believe in the heavenly, you're afraid of the earthly. And so you're afraid of the witch who you know more than the devil that you don't.
Sarah Jack: Continuing the account, quote, "the consideration how the Lord did deal with Job and his patience and the end the Lord made with him was some support to me."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "I thought also on what David said, that he had sinned, but what had these poor lambs done?"
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, this part here reminds me of your great grandmother, Rebecca Nurse in Salem, saying that she was unsure what sin God must have found in her, that he would allow her to be accused of witchcraft, where here it's like the flip side of that. John Goodwin is asking, what sins have I and my children not repented of that God would allow the children to be afflicted by a [00:53:00] witch?
Sarah Jack: Goodwin continues his account, quote, "but yet in the midst of my tumultuous thoughts within me, it was God's comforts that did delight my soul."
Josh Hutchinson: "That in the 18th of Luke and the beginning, verse 1, where Christ spake the parable for that end, that men ought always to pray and not faint. This, with many other places, bore my spirit."
Sarah Jack: And I want to point out that much of the same scripture possibly would have been known by Goody Glover, and she could too be asking questions of God and quoting scripture to try to flesh out what was happening to her spiritually.
Josh Hutchinson: The only difference is she's probably thinking of it in Irish, and he's thinking of it in English, but, she would have been just as versed, anybody at the time, drilled again and again, these things into your head.
Sarah Jack: And I'm thinking about when Cotton was speaking of her in the [00:54:00] jail, saying things and asking questions of the spirits. Could it, would it not be just like this account ofGoodman Goodwin questioning and quoting?
Josh Hutchinson: Very much.
Sarah Jack: "I thought with Jonah 2:4 that I would yet again look towards God's holy temple, the Lord Jesus Christ. And I did greatly desire to find the Son of God with me in this furnace of affliction, knowing hereby that no harm shall befall me."
Josh Hutchinson: But now this solemn day of prayer and fasting being at end, there was an imminent answer of it. For one of my children was delivered, and one of the wicked instruments of the devil discovered, and her own mouth condemned her, and so accordingly executed."
Sarah Jack: Goody Glover's death was the answer to John Goodwin's prayer.
Josh Hutchinson: He goes on to say, quote, "here was food for faith and great encouragement still to hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord, the minister still counseling and encouraging me to labor to be found in God's [00:55:00] way, committing my case to him, and not to use any way not allowed in God's word."
Sarah Jack: This really reminds me of
Josh Hutchinson:
Sarah Jack: when Paul Moyer discusses in his book, Wicked and Detestable Arts, how, in our conversation with him on that episode he made with us, how the scriptural family framework was holy and anything that fell outside of that would have not been valuable. And Goody Glover, everything about her life fell outside of that scriptural family, in their perception.
Josh Hutchinson: In the Puritan
Sarah Jack: perception.
Josh Hutchinson: And we never find out if she has any other children. They're never mentioned, only her one daughter. And we know from other cases, like Alice Young had just one daughter that we know of, and you look at the case of [00:56:00] Goody Eunice Cole, who had no children of her own, and was reported to be jealous of others who had children and wanted to take their children. But this like low fertility thing also was considered to be a judgment of God against you, that you had somehow done something wrong, or you weren't chosen by God to have children, so therefore you were valued less in society.
Sarah Jack: It was okay for the ministers and magistrates to try their experiments, but they did not want John Goodwin tempting the devil through folk magic or other means not specifically sanctioned by the Bible.
Josh Hutchinson: Goodwin continues, quote, "it was a thing not a little comfortable to us, to see that the people of God was so much concerned about our lamentable condition, remembering us at all times in their prayers, which I did look at as a token for good. But you must think it was a time of sore [00:57:00] temptation with us, for many did say, yea, and some good people, too, were it their case that they would try some tricks that they should give ease to their children."
Sarah Jack: Why was it so important for them to document that they weren't doing witch cakes and such?
Josh Hutchinson: I think in here part of the, if you look at this from like a propaganda perspective, basically the story that's being sold is that the Goodwin family is very pious and dedicated and devoted and did nothing to bring this on to themselves other than whatever sin Goodwin worries about there. They didn't do any witchcraft. They didn't do any magic. Only Goody Glover tried magic and her four accomplices that are unnamed. So it's like creating, it's like serving as, even though the trial had already happened and the execution had already happened, [00:58:00] it's like preserving for future generations, the high level of decency of the victimsand likewise showing just how detestable Goody Glover was.
Sarah Jack: And then I'm thinking about how important, at the beginning of the tale of the afflicted girls in Salem, the witch cake. That's kicks off the story, that Tituba allowed that to happen.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and Tituba gets blamed, even though Mary Sibley's the one who comes up with the idea for it, and she gets scolded in church, but then they vote, and they say, 'oh, we forgive you'.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, Reverend Parris would have been really familiar that Goodman Goodwin refused to use that folk magic, and it happened right in his house.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Reverend [00:59:00] Parris, before he went up to Salem, he was living in Boston in 1688. He moved to Salem Village in 1689. So he was still in Boston while this was going on, and he was a member of Mather's church.
Sarah Jack: And he possibly talked about this in his home.
Josh Hutchinson: Probably. And
Sarah Jack: when I say possibly, I'm being sarcastic.
Josh Hutchinson: He did. Yeah, he did. You know he did.
Sarah Jack: Yeah,
Josh Hutchinson: it's all there was to talk about, really.
Sarah Jack: Continuing, "but I thought for us to forsake the counsel of good old men, and to take the counsel of the young ones, it might ensnare our souls, though for the present it might offer some relief to our bodies, which was a thing I greatly feared, and my children were not at any time free for doing any such thing."
Josh Hutchinson: "It was a time of sore affliction, but it was mixed with abundance of mercy, for my heart was many a time made glad in the house of prayer."
Sarah Jack: And [01:00:00] Goodwin continues, "the neighborhood pitied us and were very helpful to us. Moreover, though my children were thus in every limb and joint tormented by those children of the devil, they also, using their tongues at their pleasure, sometimes one way, sometimes another, yet the Lord did hear and prevent them, that they could not make them speak wicked words, though they did many times hinder them from speaking good ones. Had they in these fits blaspheming the name of the holy God, this you may think would have been a heartbreaking thing to us the poor parents, but God in his mercy prevented them. A thing worth taking notice of."
Josh Hutchinson: "Likewise, they slept well at nights, and the ministers did often visit us and pray with us and for us. And their love and pity was so great, their prayers so earnest and constant, that I could not but admire at it."
Sarah Jack: If they admitted at this point that their fits included blasphemy, then it would totally discredit Cotton's analysis of their pious [01:01:00] family.
Josh Hutchinson: And they had to get out in front of any rumors of blasphemy that might have been spreading.
Sarah Jack: "Mr. Mather, particularly now, his bowels so yearn toward us in this sad condition that he not only prays with us, and for us, but he taketh one of my children home to his own house, which, indeed, was but a troublesome guest. For such a one that had so much work lying upon his hands and heart, he took much pains in this great service, to pull this child, and her brother and sister, out of the hand of the devil."
Josh Hutchinson: So Cotton Mather took one of the Goodwin children in,
Sarah Jack: David D. Hall refers to her as Martha in his book, Witch Hunting in 17th Century in New England.
Sarah Jack: John Goodwin's account continues, "let us now admire and adore that fountain, the Lord Jesus Christ, from once those streams come,
Sarah Jack: the Lord himself requite his labor of love."
Josh Hutchinson: "Our case is yet very sad, and doth call for more prayer. And the good ministers of this town and Charlestown readily came, with some [01:02:00] other good praying people to my house, to keep another day of solemn fasting and prayer, which our Lord saith this kind goeth out by."
Sarah Jack: "My children, being all at home, the two biggest lying on the bed, one of them would fain have kicked the good men, while they were wrestling with God for them, had not I held him with all my power and might, and sometimes he would stop his own ears."
Josh Hutchinson: "This, you must needs think, was a cutting thing to the poor parents. Now our hearts were ready to sink had not God put us under his everlasting arms of mercy, Deuteronomy 33:27, and helped us still to hope in his mercy, and to be quiet, knowing that he is God, and that it was not for the potsherds of the earth to strive with their maker."
Sarah Jack: One thing that I notice here is he says that they talked about keeping fasting and prayer, which our Lord saith, this kind goeth out by. Isn't the kind that goes out by fasting [01:03:00] and prayer having to do with possession and not witchcraft?
Sarah Jack:
Sarah Jack: John Goodwin was concerned for the well being of his children, but he often comes across as more concerned for his own needs, such as here when he talks about his and his wife's hearts being ready to sink because this was, quote, "a cutting thing to the poor parents."
Josh Hutchinson: But to be fair, he's also speaking to the parents in his audience about things they might experience in their own times of need.
Sarah Jack: And giving them advice on how to maintain their faith that God will deliver them from their troubles.
Josh Hutchinson: He continues, "well might David say, Psalms 1:2, that had not the law of his God been his delight, he had perished in his affliction."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "now the promises of God are sweet, God having promised to hear the prayer of the destitute and not to despise their prayer, and he will not fail the expectation of those that wait on him, but he heareth the cry of the poor and the needy."
Josh Hutchinson: "These Jacobs came and wrestled with God for a [01:04:00] blessing on this poor family, which indeed I hope they obtained, and may be now worthy of the name Israel, who prevailed with God and would not let him go till he had blessed us."
Sarah Jack: "For soon after this, there were two more of my children delivered out of this horrible pit. Here was now a double mercy, and how sweet it was, knowing it came in answer of prayer."
Josh Hutchinson: "Now we see and know it is not a vain thing to call on the name of the Lord, for he is a present help in the time of trouble, Psalms 46:1. And we may boldly say the Lord has been our helper. I had sunk, but Jesus put forth his hand and bore me up."
Sarah Jack: And I just keep thinking how Goody Glover would've been clinging to the same scripture, for her hope and rescue. "My faith was ready to fail, but this was the support to me that Christ said to Peter in Luke 22:32, I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail [01:05:00] not."
Josh Hutchinson: So Goodwin owns his crisis of faith and shares how he overcame it.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "and many other promises were as cordials to my drooping soul. In the consideration of all those that ever came to Christ Jesus for healing, that he healed their bodies, pardoned their sins, and healed their souls, too, which I hope in God may be the fruit of this present affliction."
Josh Hutchinson: "If God be pleased to make the fruit of this affliction to be to take away our sin and cleanse us from iniquity and to put us on with greater diligence to make our calling and election sure, then happy affliction!"
Sarah Jack: So mad right now.
Josh Hutchinson: Meanwhile, this woman died for, to make this guy happy.
Sarah Jack: It's so unhappy that they're willing to kill a woman. It's so unhappy that it was crushing the hearts of the parents, but now it's happy. The rescue.
Josh Hutchinson: Ding dong.
Sarah Jack: "The Lord said that I had need of this to awake [01:06:00] me. I have found a prosperous condition."
Josh Hutchinson: "I have taken notice and considered more of God's goodness in these few weeks of affliction than in many years of prosperity."
Sarah Jack: And this is really a point that we have even discussed with some of the European witch trials that we've discussed, that if witches were being found in your parish or church or community, that was a sign that you were having some spiritual prosperity. And so then you were a target by the devil, just as Goodman Goodwin here said that prosperous condition is a dangerous condition.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
Sarah Jack: "I may speak it with shame, so wicked and deceitful, and ungrateful is my heart, that the more God hath been doing for me, the less I have been doing for him. My returns have not been according to my receivings."
Josh Hutchinson: "The Lord help me now to praise him in heart, lip, and life. The Lord help us to see by this [01:07:00] visitation what need we have to get shelter under the wing of Christ, to haste to the rock where we may be safe."
Sarah Jack: I'm really impressed with this mason's writing skills.
Josh Hutchinson: He blows me away. He's better than cotton.
Sarah Jack: "We see how ready the devils are to catch us and torment our bodies, and he is as diligent to ensnare our souls in that many ways, but let us put on all of our spiritual armor and follow Christ, the captain of our salvation. And though we meet with the cross, let us bear it patiently and cheerfully, for if Jesus Christ be at the one end, we need not fear the heft of it. If we have Christ, we have enough. He can make his rod as well as his staff to be a comfort to us. And we shall not want if we be the sheep of Christ."
Josh Hutchinson: " If we want afflictions, we shall have them, and sanctified afflictions are choice mercies. Now I earnestly desire the prayer of all good people that the Lord would be pleased to perfect that work he hath begun, and make it to appear that [01:08:00] prayer is stronger than witchcraft. December 12th, 1688, John Goodwin."
Sarah Jack: John just shared a lot of scripture that is very familiar to many people. And it's just very insightful to see how it can be twisted to sanctify one person and discredit another person's humanity.
Josh Hutchinson: It's so easy to twist words.
Sarah Jack: And that ends the Goody Glover section of Memorable Providences.
Josh Hutchinson: Cotton Mather then goes on to detail other cases. One final source reflects another attitude about the Glover case, Robert Calef vocal critic of Cotton Mather and The Salem Witch-Hunt, wrote More Wonders of the Invisible World as a counterpoint to Mather's own Wonders of the Invisible World, a fawning work praising the actions of the Salem Witch Trial's judges.
Sarah Jack: In More Wonders of the Invisible World, Calef [01:09:00] included a couple paragraphs on the case of Goody Glover.
Josh Hutchinson: Calef wrote that he had perused the trial records of Goody Glover. Unfortunately, these records are not available today.
Sarah Jack: He wrote, "in the times of Sir Edmund Andros, his government, Goody Glover, a despised, crazy, ill-conditioned old woman, an Irish Roman Catholic, was tried for afflicting Goodwin's children, by the account of which trial, taken in shorthand for the use of the jury, it may appear that the generality of her answers were nonsense, and her behavior like that of one distracted."
Josh Hutchinson: "Yet the doctors, finding her as she had been for many years, brought her in compos mentis, and setting aside her crazy answers to some ensnaring questions, the proof against her was wholly deficient. The jury brought her guilty."
Sarah Jack: Quote, "Mr. Cotton Mather was the most active and forward of any minister in the country in those matters, in the country, taking [01:10:00] home one of the children and managing such intrigues with that child. And after printing such an account of the whole and his Memorable Providences as conduced much to the kindling those flames, that in Sir William's time, threatened devouring this country."
Josh Hutchinson: So now we've covered four contemporary sources of information on the Goody Glover case.
Sarah Jack: We talk about them losing hold of the country and here Calef uses the word devouring, that I just find that significant.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's interesting because Cotton Mather, when he talks about Salem, he talks about the devil's dominion is, New England is the devil's dominion. And, the people of that dominion are all allied to take down the Massachusetts Bay Colony and it's thePuritanized Church. So it's interesting Cotton Mather's saying [01:11:00] that the devouring of the country is by Satan and his instruments, and Calef is saying, no, the devouring is you guys with your witch trial running rampant.
Sarah Jack: And witch hunting is still devouring.
Josh Hutchinson: What do you think caused the afflictions?
Josh Hutchinson: I believe the Goodwin children, like the girls in the Salem Village Parsonage in 1692, were under a great deal of stress. Cotton Mather told us that they were kept continuously employed in order that they could avoid temptation. That sort of strict management of their life could have driven them to extremes in an effort to avoid more work.
Sarah Jack: And Martha wouldn't have wanted to be blamed for the missing linen. So she confronted the laundress in an effort to get it back.
Josh Hutchinson: Or cynically, you might think she was just trying to cover herself by shifting the blame for whatever really happened to the linen to someone else.
Sarah Jack: Then when the [01:12:00] stressed-out Martha Goodwin was bawled out by Goody Glover, she feared the woman was a witch who had cursed her.
Josh Hutchinson: She then embodied the symptoms of bewitchment, which were known at the time.
Sarah Jack: And her younger siblings followed suit either out of their own bewitchment fear or simply to play the game.
Josh Hutchinson: Whatever caused the children's behaviors, we know one thing that didn't, real witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: That's right. We know for a fact that Goody Glover was not guilty of using witchcraft to harm the children.
Josh Hutchinson: With that much known, there's still much that we do not know about Goody Glover.
Sarah Jack: The men who wrote about her in the 17th century did not include details on her background.
Josh Hutchinson: You'll notice in these four sources that nobody ever gave Goody Glover a first name or a maiden name.
Sarah Jack: Or names her husband or daughter.
Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, some information that is commonly shared about Goody Glover today is not based on these sources or other true historical [01:13:00] record. Despite best guesses, Goody Glover's first name and maiden name are not known.
Sarah Jack: But part of popular lore.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, part of popular lore.
Sarah Jack: We only know her by her husband's surname and the honorific Goody, which was short for Goodwife, a term applied to most married women in early Massachusetts. I know many people know her as Ann, but the contemporary sources we have do not include this information.
Josh Hutchinson: In fact, Goody Glover was first given the name Ann in 1905 by Harold Dijon in his article, "The Forgotten Heroine," which was published in the Ave Maria magazine's January 7th, 1905 issue and was later reproduced in the Journal of the American Irish Historical Society.
Sarah Jack: Sadly, Dijon fabricated historical details such as supposed quotes from Glover herself. Still, despite the glaring inconsistencies and inaccuracies, the story of heroic Ann Glover took hold in people's minds.
[01:14:00]
Josh Hutchinson: From this article and others like it, additional misinformation and speculation about Goody Glover has spread.
Sarah Jack: In 1872, Father James Fenton speculated that Goody Glover, quote, "was probably one of the unfortunate women whom English barbarity tore from their homes in Ireland to sell as slaves in America."
Josh Hutchinson: This was published in the book Sketches of the Establishment of the Church in New England.
Josh Hutchinson: Conjecture that Goody Glover was enslaved by OliverCromwell's regime and transported to Barbados made the rounds in the years following publication of this book. Then, in 1905, Harold Dijon removed the conjecture by claiming that Goody Glover, quote, "herself has stated that she and her husband were sold to the Barbados in the time of Cromwell."
Sarah Jack: No author ever cited this seemingly important quote by Goody Glover.
Josh Hutchinson: For his own part, Cotton Mather, writing soon after the execution of Glover, [01:15:00] only quoted the Irish woman briefly, saying, quote, "when I was representing unto her that and how her prince had cheated her, as herself would quickly find, she replied, I think in English, and with passion too, 'if it be so, I am sorry for that.'"
Sarah Jack: Quote, "if it be so, I am sorry for that." Is that really all he could be bothered with writing down out of everything she said?
Josh Hutchinson: Well, he was busy writing the 388 books and pamphlets he published.
Sarah Jack: But he had time to accuse Goody Glover of having familiarity with the devil and evil spirits.
Josh Hutchinson: So, how should this woman be remembered?
Josh Hutchinson: Over the years, various efforts have been made to resuscitate Glover's reputation. These have gone a long way to rehabilitate her image, but her story is still not widely known.
Sarah Jack: In 1987,a committee was formed to change that by erecting a statue in Goody Glover's honor.
Josh Hutchinson: The plan was [01:16:00] referenced in a Boston Globe article titled "In Honor of Goody," found on page 15 of the November 16, 1987 edition.
Sarah Jack: In this article, Patrick G. Russell, described as a local history buff from Stoneham,
Josh Hutchinson: wrote that Reverend Vincent A. Lapomarda of Holy Crossand Reverends Leonard P. Mahoney and Francis W. Sweeney of Boston College had formed a committee to push for the memorial, which has not been built.
Josh Hutchinson: Sadly, these three gentlemen have since passed. If anyone out there knows any more about this committee, we would love to hear what you have.
Sarah Jack: But there is a plaque on a church in Boston, and there is another way we can honor her very soon.
Josh Hutchinson: Goody Glover has never been exonerated of her supposed crime, though it is abundantly clear she was not guilty of being a witch, legally defined at the time as having or consulting with a familiar spirit.
Sarah Jack: As nobody has ever proven a connection with a familiar spirit, nobody [01:17:00] could have proven Glover a witch, as defined by Massachusetts law.
Josh Hutchinson: if you believe, like us, that Goody Glover deserves justice, we encourage you to sign our petition at change. org slash witchtrials.
Sarah Jack: And join us on Zoom this Saturday, November 16th, 2024 at 2 p. m. Eastern for a remembrance ceremony for Goody Glover.
Josh Hutchinson: Please check the show notes for details on that event. There's a Facebook
Sarah Jack: event, yeah,
Josh Hutchinson: There's a Facebook event, you can go to Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project Facebook and Witch Hunt Facebook and find it there, but we'll also have it in the show notes. And at this event, we'll have information on how you can help the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project clear the names of Goody Glover and seven other individuals who were convicted of witchcraft in Boston, and an apology for all witchcraft prosecutions in Massachusetts.
Sarah Jack: If you would like to get involved right now, and you are in Massachusetts, [01:18:00] please write your senator or representative to encourage them to support legislation to exonerate the eight people convicted of witchcraft in Boston. We're going to need people anywhere to write, but right now we really need people that are local in Massachusetts.
Josh Hutchinson: So please visit massachusettswitchtrials. org to learn more about the project and to complete our simple volunteer registration form.
Sarah Jack: And now Mary Bingham has a new minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Imagine a child grieving the loss of her mother as the woman she looked to for comfort and support all her life. Now imagine her mother died because she was hanged for a crime she did not commit. This was the case for Goody Glover's daughter, who was accused of stealing linen, which resulted in her mother's accusation of witchcraft. The younger Glover was orphaned at the moment of her mother's death in [01:19:00] 1688. Unfortunately, what happened to Goody's daughter is lost to history. What we do know is that she died without seeing justice for her mother or herself.
Mary Bingham: Boston did declare November 16th, 1988 as Goody Glover Day, but one day to honor her is not enough. The stain needs to be removed once and for all from Goody Glover. It's time the state of Massachusetts fully exonerate Goody Glover and offer an official state apology to all those who were accused for the capital crime of witchcraft.
Mary Bingham: Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: For my segment today,I'd like to read for you the proclamation, which set November 16th, 1988, as Goody Glover Day. You will notice the wording includes both [01:20:00] historical fact and some of the lore we have covered in this episode. And now, read for the first time since 1988, the proclamation. "City of Boston and City Council. Resolution of Counselor O'Neill designating November 16th as Goody Glover Day in Boston, commemorating the tricentennial of her religious martyrdom here." Whereas, 300 years ago this day in Boston, on November 16th, 1688, Goodwife Ann Glover, a penniless Irish laundress, was hanged, refusing to renounce her Catholic religion;
Sarah Jack: and "Goody" Glover thus became one of the early Puritan Colony martyrs to the witchcraft mania, which was to spread to Salem four years later; and
Sarah Jack: She was executed one day after her trial in Boston amidst an atmosphere unsympathetic to her Gaelic speech and disapproving of religious relicsfound in a search of meager living quarters the widow and her daughter had; [01:21:00] and
Sarah Jack: At her trial, without benefit of counsel, inarticulate in her defense, she was convicted of witchcraft based on charges stemming from the tantrums of a young girl;
Sarah Jack: The eve of her execution, she refused to save herself by recanting her faith,then failed to recite the Our Father in the version approved by the Reverend Cotton Matherwhen he visited her cell;
Sarah Jack: Goody Glover's martyrdom has been recognized by scholars, although her name has never been cleared on the records;
Sarah Jack: This past Sunday,a plaque to Goodwife Ann Glover was dedicated in Our Lady of Victory Shrine in Bostonas a donation by the order of Alhambra, therefore be it:
Josh Hutchinson: Resolved:The Boston City Council on this anniversary of Goodwife Ann Glover's death, and as a token of redemption of her name, declares November 16, 1988 as Goody Glover Day in Boston. Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: We hope to see you [01:22:00] Saturday at our online event and back next week for another listen.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and remember Goody Glover.

November 13, 2024

The Fight Against Gender-Based Violence: Perspectives and Strategies with Reference to Accusations of Witchcraft

Show Notes

Welcome to Witch Hunt, the investigative podcast exploring modern-day witch hunting in India. In this eye-opening episode, we investigate a critical human rights crisis: the systematic persecution of women through witchcraft accusations. The statistics are haunting: over 2,000 documented witch-hunting murders between 2000-2012—with countless more cases hidden in rural communities. To analyze this intersection of women’s rights, criminal justice, and cultural practices, we’re joined by leading experts: Rashika Bajaj, a human rights advocate at Jharkhand High Court, and Jaya Verma, an assistant professor specializing in gender law at Jindal Global University. Human rights researcher Dr. Amit Anand provides essential insights on how traditional beliefs and economic inequality fuel these violent practices. Together, we’ll examine urgent policy reforms, legal protection measures, and grassroots solutions needed to combat witch-hunting violence. This powerful episode serves as both an exposé and a call to action—through awareness and advocacy, we can challenge harmful practices and protect vulnerable women. Join our investigation into one of India’s most pressing yet under-reported human rights issues. You’re listening to Witch Hunt.

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⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project⁠

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⁠United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks⁠

⁠Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria⁠

⁠The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠International Alliance to End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠IK Ero On Next Steps For Ending Witch Hunts⁠

⁠Sierra Leone Association for Persons With Albinism⁠

Transcript

The Fight Against Gender-Based Violence_ Perspectives and Strategies with Reference to Accusations of Witchcraft Download

Rashika Bajaj: [00:00:00] 2,097 people were murdered from 2000 to 2012 in the name of witch-hunting.
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast demystifying modern-day witchcraft accusation-related violence. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we're examining a critical human rights crisis that continues to devastate lives across modern India, the persecution of women through witchcraft accusations.
Josh Hutchinson: The numbers are shocking. Between 2000 and 2012 alone, over 2,000 people in India were murdered after being accused of witchcraft. And those are just the reported cases. The true toll of this violence remains hidden.
Sarah Jack: To help us understandthis complex issue, we're joined by two distinguished legal experts, Rashika Bajaj,
Sarah Jack: a legal advocate at Jharkhand High Court, and Jaya Verma,
Sarah Jack: an assistant professor of law at Jindal Global University.
Josh Hutchinson: Together, we'll explore the deadly intersection of gender-based violence, [00:01:00] poverty, and traditional beliefs that fuels these accusations. Our guests will help us understand why this practice persists and what solutions they propose to protect vulnerable populations.
Sarah Jack: We'll also hear from returning guest, Dr. Amit Anand, who provides crucial context for understanding witch hunting within the broader framework of gender-based violence in India. We'll discuss the urgent need for central legislation, the challenges of implementing effective solutions in rural communities, and the vital role of education and awareness programs in creating lasting change.
Josh Hutchinson: This is more than just a discussion. It's a call to action. Through understanding, we can work together to end this cycle of violence and persecution.
Sarah Jack: Hello, welcome to Witch Hunt podcast. We are so honored to have you joining us today. Please each introduce yourself and tell us about your professional accomplishments and your interest in human rights.
Rashika Bajaj: Myself, Rashika Bajaj, I completed my LLB from Presidency [00:02:00] University, Bangalore and LLM in criminal law from Reva University, Bangalore. Recently, I am practicing as an advocate in Jharkhand High Court. With regard to my interest in human rights, I was introduced this subject in LLM and seeing it around. It's very relatable to real-life circumstances of our life. And then I was introduced by Amit sir about the witchcraft thing, which gave me more interest. Slowly and gradually, I'm learning more about it. Thank you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity also.
Jaya Verma: Hello. Hello, everyone. First of all, thank you so much for this opportunity. It's a great pleasure to be a part of this discussion. I am Jaya Verma. I have done my bachelors in law from Chanakya National Law University, Patna, India. And I also have my master's degree in law from O. P. Jindal Global University, Sonipat, Haryana, [00:03:00] India.
Jaya Verma: Although my specialization lies in corporate and financial laws, I was introduced and rather I became more interested in the topic of witchcraft accusations, allegations, witch hunting, and all about that while my time as an assistant professor of law in Reva University, Bangalore, India, andit was the discussions with Dr. Amit Anand and Ms. Akanksha Madaan that made me find more interest in the topic. Also my connection with human rights was that when I was working inReva University, I was also a coordinator of Center for Human Rights Law and Policy. So that's where it all started.
Josh Hutchinson: Why does witch hunting persist in modern India? And how do gender and caste inequalities fuel this cycle of violence despite legal protections?
Rashika Bajaj: In India, there are various laws which protect the women, but still witch hunting is not very discussed in the present era. People still fear [00:04:00] dominant women in India, and, when it comes to witch hunting, women are specifically regarded as witches over here, because it's perceived over here, the notion is, particularly over there, is that women are the ones who does black magic and everything.
Rashika Bajaj: Apart from the states having various legislations over here, still I believe that witch hunting is being practiced around every rural area of India. Me belonging from Jharkhand specifically, in my locality itself, I can witness this in and around, just outside my house, it's a very common thing for me to witness on regular basis.
Rashika Bajaj: Understanding, first of all, what is witch hunting is basically in common terms, which I feel is the practice of magic with the evil purposes. The best example is that in our area, if I take the example focusing on Jharkhand, which I witnessed on a frequent basis, there are a [00:05:00] lot of crossroads over here, and it's believed that on Saturdays, people come and keep a few substances like rice, or some, lambs lit in the boughs of mud and everything. People generally fear to cross from that area believing it to be a black magic. The people think and there is a evil purpose behind it. Maybe the person doing has not done with the evil intent, but then people are still afraid to act. And when it regards to the gender-based violence, coming to that, in this, it's basically because of the superstition and patriarchy continues still in India, where women are still regarded to as a witches over here.
Sarah Jack: Just to add to her point, yes, India has seen and, in the past also, and in the present, is, it has seen a lot ofincidents of witchcraft andsome states have majorly seen these incidents more than the other, have been [00:06:00] Jharkhand, Odisha, Rajasthan, Assam, Chhattisgarh, all of these. And the incidents have been rising, although remain more and more unreported, is the problem that is there in India. So as Jackasked, despite having some legal norms and some legal structural framework regarding witchcraft allegation, why we could not,why India is not able to put a restraint on this,this practice of witchcraft and this practice of witch hunting, the problem here lies in the fact that the laws are more and more restricted to the regional areas rather than being, India being in focus, as in, there is no central legislation yet, although there are a lot oftherequirement and demand for the witchcraft legislation to be at the central level. We still have not reached to that level. Although there has been a bill in the 2022, till, we, the bill has not yet become the law. That is the reason.
Rashika Bajaj: Would like to add [00:07:00] into it,as Ma'am said, there is a lack of proper awareness also, and people are still not ready to talk about it. Many people witness this in and around, but they ignore it, the fact, and then state laws are inadequately enforced over it. That's also a major issue that we are focusing on the demand of central legislation as a proper base for it.
Sarah Jack: With reference to accusations of witchcraft, what are your perspectives on the fight against gender-based violence?
Jaya Verma: Gender-based violence, it is definitely one of the major forms of human rights violation throughout the world. And the focal point of gender-based violence, they are majorly women. Of course, all the genders are definitely subjected to it, but the ratio of women being affected by gender-based violence throughout the world has been rather high.
Jaya Verma: So for women, the gender-based violence has not just, because it has not just caused physical, mental, or, physical or mental harm, but also a reputational [00:08:00] harm. We have seen that women are more subjected to moral standards, to moral policing, and that is one of the reasons as to why gender-based violence would be said to be more, women could be more prone to the GBV.
Jaya Verma: Also, witchcraft accusations and witch hunting is one such form of gender-based violence, which is pervasive. This is worldwide, and to some extent, it entraps all kinds of genders. It entraps all kinds of genders with the hypothesis that the witchcraft accusation acts as a punishment for those who do not cooperate with social norms. However, seeing this, it cannot be denied that women are the ones who are more prone to it, because the incidents have been evidence throughout the world.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding to these points, I would like to say that the gender-based violence is a global issue, still prevailing around, but in, as I have mentioned before, that witch hunting is more among the rural communities. As for the Indian National Crime Record Bureau, [00:09:00] 2,097 people, 2,097 people were murdered from 2000 to 2012 in the name of witch-hunting.
Rashika Bajaj: The major ratio was among, of the women, among these. And, the main reason was because they wanted to throw the women out of the villages to take the control over the lands. And if women denied the sexual needs of the men, that was also the main reason people used to go for the witchcrafts and everything over there, related to those evil practices.
Josh Hutchinson: And what strategies are needed to fight against gender-based violence, especially with reference to accusations of witchcraft?
Rashika Bajaj: One thing that we have decided on the theme is about the demand for the central legislation. If we go into a rough draft of it, it's very,important to define the term witchcraft as to what all falls into it because it covers a wider ambit. There are different ways people do it.
Rashika Bajaj: If we see in the Hindus, [00:10:00] Hinduism, people, generally there is a kind of, even practices can be done for the, people use witch magics to at least cure something also. And for some, it's like they, you try to harm others also. But then the main perception over here is that people take it in a negative perspective only.
Rashika Bajaj: So for that, a well-defined definition is important. Some punitive measures would be beneficial for the states and the country itself, such as strict punishment for individuals. And apart from this, victim protection and rehabilitation can also help more on these points. And not forgetting about the awareness programs. As I said, we need to change the notion of the people in and around. Education is the base for everything, what I believe is. Seeing mostly witch hunters practice in the rural areas and women who are widowed, divorced, basically try to practice this [00:11:00] thinking that some evil things has happened to them, and to cure them, people go to the witch doctors in and around to find a solution for themselves. And in general terms also, if we see in and around when we, in just a small example, I would like to cite it. When a child falls ill, the mother takes him to the temple to take out the evil eye, or what we call as the drishti.
Rashika Bajaj: So the first aspect of if we want to change the one notion is about what will be is the awareness program will help us a lot. In doing so, educating people, as rural people are not much educated. Apart from that, the laws would work.
Jaya Verma: So about the strategies, adding to Rashika's points, I think that the problem here in India is that yes, India has grown. India, the infrastructure of India, the development in India has been rapid throughout a few decades, past few decades. But the problem here is that even though India has made a name of [00:12:00] itself in the map, in the world map, but still 70 percent of the population in India that resides in rural areas, in rural India. There, witchcraftaccusation and witch hunting has been more rather than the urban areas.
Jaya Verma: So what we see here in India is that the rural India is rather,it is comprised of mostly a patriarchal structure of society. So apart from all the other reasons, what we see is that the reason why witchcraft and witchcraft accusation and hunting remains pervasive in the rural India is that because there's a lack of infrastructure and they want to maintain that kind of society that already exists. They do not want want their social structure order disturbed at all, and the woman, if at all, they want to change or move out from the traditional roles that they are supposed to follow, like looking after the household or just remaining inside the homes, not studying, not getting educated, not even proper [00:13:00] healthcare.
Jaya Verma: So, if they try to step out of that traditional role, what happens is that they are forced, pulled back by these means of sanction. So in rural India, witchcraft works as a sanction, as a very evil sanction, against those women who want to get out of the structure of patriarchy that, you know,that encapsulates the entire rural India.
Jaya Verma: So, what we need to understand here is that, yes, the laws are definitely, even if they're there, they're not implemented. The strategies that can be followed here is that, first of all, of course, as Rashika pointed out, we need a central legislation. From the legal point of view, we need to have stronger laws.
Jaya Verma: Apart from that, there are, we have to know that witchcraft accusations they're not just something which has religious or superstitious roots.
Sarah Jack: Another strategy that we could adopt here is, the, the trauma that, it causes, the trauma that witch hunting and witchcraft accusation causes to the people, to the [00:14:00] victim of saidsocial evil and the strategies that could implement that could ensure that the mental,the problems that are caused, the mental distress that is caused to them is fixed somehow through therapy and a wide awareness regarding everything that is happening in the country, which is rare because the reporting of the incidents is rare. The printing of said incidents in the print media or in the electronic media is very rare. So that is all is needed as a strategy apart from the laws that is of course required.
Rashika Bajaj: I would like to substantiate those with few datas I have with myself. From the, over the period spanning from 2010 to 2021, 1,500 individuals in India fell victim to acts of violence including burning and lynching following only the allegations of witchcrafts. This was the report by the National Crime Bureau records.
Rashika Bajaj: Apart from this, between 2001 to 2016, the state of Jharkhand witnessed lynching [00:15:00] of 523 women by their local communities who had been labelled as witches. And not only Jharkhand have suffered these, but apart from that, other states such as Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Gujarat, West Bengal also.
Josh Hutchinson: And only 69 percent of the cases are only reported of witch hunting are only reported in India, which resulted into police intervention. And apart from this, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and other states are also very common, and it's increasing day by day, and it's not increasing apart from the further generations being educated on this point.
Josh Hutchinson: You had mentioned that there is central legislation, a bill has been proposed. What is the status of that? What can you tell us about that legislation that's been proposed? what's the process? What needs to happen for that bill to pass?
Jaya Verma: Yeah. So the bill was introduced in [00:16:00] 2020 in one of the houses of the parliament, the Rajya Sabha, the upper house. And what requires to be done here is then since it has been introduced, it needs to clear the three hearings of the bill in the parliament. Both houses need to come together and they need todiscuss over the bill, they need to discuss everything regarding it, and then once it passes through both the houses, it requires the assent of the president.
Jaya Verma: So for now, the bill has been introduced, although it has not crossed all the three hearings till date. So it is still pending. It is still requires all the steps to fulfill before it becomes an act. However, there is no development in the process still. So it is pending for now.
Sarah Jack: And during those hearings, is it, is it just government officials who discuss and examine it? Or are there, is there a voice from the public at those hearings?
Jaya Verma: In our [00:17:00] political structure, what happens is that it is a representative democracy, India. So the people are elected, they go to the parliament, the people elect their leaders, and they become members of parliament. Some become members of parliament, the elected people, directly from the people, they become members of Lok Sabha, which is the lower house, and the upper house, that is the Rajya Sabha there, it is not direct representation, there is, from the states, the state legislative assemblies, they are supposed to send members into the Rajya Sabha.
Jaya Verma: So both kinds of representation is there in the parliament. Even though the bills that are introduced are not directly, there's no,the people are not directly asked for their opinion. However, since we are a representative democracy, it is assumed that the voices of the people will be put forth by the people who are already there in the parliament. So they are the leaders and they will be the ones who are, who introduce the [00:18:00] bill. They pass the bill. So that is how it works.
Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.
Josh Hutchinson: And you both had mentioned previously that legal frameworks do need to be strengthened and laws need to be improved upon to better protect women from witch-hunting and related violence. What specifically in the law needs to happen for women to be better protected?
Jaya Verma: So, currently, the penal provisions around the law, as in the witch-hunting, the witchcraft allegations, accusations, everything, all the incidents that are being reported, even though they are very less in number, they get reported and they do not get punished in the, in a particular, in a special, under a special law.
Jaya Verma: There is a very general law, the general law of the Indian Penal Code, which is the general law of the land regarding criminal laws. It lays down the nature of offenses and the [00:19:00] punishment against those offenses. So, witchcraft accusation or witch-hunting specifically does not find a mention in any of the laws that are centrally applied in, currently in India.
Jaya Verma: So what we, what the central legislation demands here is that there should be a special law dealing with witchcraft, and witchcraft accusation laws are there at the state level, as in, on the units which are there in India, right? There's a, it's a unit,it's a quasi-federal structure. So there is a, in the country, there are several units which are called as states. So those states have laws. Some of those states have laws. The places which seemore incidents of witchcraft allegations, they have their state laws. But lack of central legislation is not, is,the punishment is not very clear. The punishment is very fragmented in different states. And also the ones which are already [00:20:00] there, that is not enough to cause a restraint on this particular practice.
Sarah Jack: If the gender-based violence laws were strong enough, would that flow over and add some protection for alleged witches? Also, so it's, I'm trying to understand is, are the current gender-based violence laws, they themselves, the punishments, aren't strong enough to stop it from happening? Even though, even violence that may not be connected to a witchcraft accusation.
Rashika Bajaj: I personally believe that the, whatever the laws India is having based on gender-based violence, it does not cover the point of the witchcraft in itself. Witchcraft is totally a separate aspect of gender-based violence, because it's, as taking the example of domestic violence, if we compare with it, it's committed in a different way and a witchcraft is [00:21:00] committed in a totally different way. There are both different ways of committing it. Though these states have the their general laws, but as I mentioned earlier, the ways of committing witchcraft is very different. Therefore, the specific definitions of the word witchcraft is mandatory. And if we talk about the other legislation type, be it the sexual protection of women, sexual harassment of women at the workplace or domestic violence act, they have their own perspective. And each laws have their own objectives. So I believe a separate legislation would work more over here.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, that is actually correct. That we, in India we see that, despite there being a central legislation regarding crimes in general, the Indian Penal Code and the procedural law that surrounds it, that is the criminal procedure code, we also see that there are criminal laws that arefocused specifically on a particular subject, and they are, they surround the gender-based violence that Rashika correctly pointed out about [00:22:00] thedomestic violence. There is an act, special act for that. Then there is an act against dowry prohibition, which restrains and which punishes people who demand dowrywhile the wedding is happening or the marriage is happening, any,the people who are involved in it, they get punished, especially, so special laws around that.The laws restraining child marriage is also there in India.
Jaya Verma: So all of these are special laws and even though the laws around all of these offenses are there in the Indian Penal Code, that is, it's all there in the Indian Penal Code and, but still special laws have been framed, because the general laws were not enough. So that is what we also think that witchcraft,witch-hunting and witchcraft should also be, there, there should be special laws around that.
Sarah Jack: And how long these, historically, how long have laws to protect women been introduced? [00:23:00] Are we talking decades, just a few decades, or is it still very young in laws that are protecting women's rights?
Jaya Verma: The laws that have been protecting women in India, it's not just been decades, it has been around a few hundred years. Around the year 1800s, this has been happening. A very known pioneer of women's rights protection, he was Raja Ram Mohan Roy, also a freedom fighter while we were under the subjugation or imperialism of British. So during that time, only he started with the idea that women's rights should be,there should be laws around women's, gender-based violence and the women should be protected. So the laws regarding widow remarriage. In India, that was not there. So that was introduced in the, during 1800s. And also child marriage restraint was also, it had also started.
Jaya Verma: Also to [00:24:00] point out that during imperialism, witchcraft and witch-hunting, these issues were also dealt with by the British. And there was restraint put on the people, on the native people here, by the British. They were not supposed topractice this in,India, during, from that time. And from there on, it has been a continued process. Lots of laws, many laws have been introduced. In fact, most of our laws in India, they are, they are more helpful towards bringing a change regarding gender-based violence. And I'm talking in general. Most of the laws. However, of course, improvement is required.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding on to Ma'am's point,as the question was asked, I have read a few,Hindu vedas all have also gone through into those also. There were also few rules which protected women, though they were not properly codified, but still from time immemorial, India is trying to protect the rights of the woman and they have been given the position of [00:25:00] goddess, and the respect for women is always at the supreme level over here.
Jaya Verma: And in addition to legislation itself, there needs to be several other things that happen to help bring an end to this. One thing you mentioned was awareness and education. What type of education is needed in these communities?
Rashika Bajaj: Rural people are basically less educated over here. Imparting education over there is literally difficult. So, our community-level awareness program, as I mentioned, by NGOs, by social workers and local leaders, giving them a basic knowledge about the ideas. Apart from this, we can go into police and judicial reforms, where by improving the sensitivity and understanding of law enforcement agency regarding witchcraft-related violence is also vital, which I believe. And the sensitization programs [00:26:00] for police officers, legal professionals, and other judicial members, which can help more effective enforcement.
Rashika Bajaj: One is that judiciary needs to also work more. When it comes to educational level, it's not only rural people also, but it, as a lawyer, there is a learning every day. So when it comes to understanding, it covers a wider aspect for me as it's a very vast topic. So I believe all the judicial, at the judiciary level, be it the rural people and including us also, me witnessing witchcraft in and around very often, still being so educated, I neglect it. So there must be some other more awareness programs. People should not hesitate to talk about that thing, which I believe is the crucial thing. And that can only be done with the help of the awareness programs by NGOs at the ground level, basically.
Jaya Verma: Also, adding to Rashika's point, some [00:27:00] education is also required at the grassroots level, because, as mentioned before, also that 70 percent of people in India reside in rural areas. So, the education, educational infrastructure has not reached at all. And the literacy standard in India is still at a very low. So we need to raise that. We need to ensure that it has, it becomes a little higher, because for a person to be literate in India, they don't even require to be, youthey don't even require to be past fifth grade or something like that. All they need is till date that they require to be able to write their own name in any language that is there in our country. So the standard itself has to be raised. Apart from that, of course, the infrastructure has to be ensured that it reaches to all the areas in India, which is still scanty. Moreover, even after it reaches, we need to ensure that a gender-based[00:28:00] study or a gender-based awareness happens, which is also rare in India. It still has not happened till now. Only the schools which are, or the, all the institutions which are there in the urban areas, they have that kind of education. And a very big problem that still persists here in India is that it is tabooed. The education regarding gender-based, the gender-based education is tabooed and we are still stuck in professional education as to just to get jobs. The people who are all still here in urban places. So we need to have a more holistic approach towards education.
Josh Hutchinson: You had also mentioned the need to support the survivors of witchcraft accusations. What kind of supports are people needing once they've been through this horrific type of event?
Rashika Bajaj: There have been few incidents reported as I have mentioned earlier, the data which I gave of [00:29:00] the National Crime Record Bureau and about the Jharkhand lynching cases. There are few victims who are not actually liable for that thing but then because just of an as an apprehension they are being treated as, as witches or witchcraft.
Rashika Bajaj: They're like, there are many community witch practices like in Assam also I have heard aboutblack magic thing and witchcraft in India where the common tricks are used is fortune telling through shells and future projections are also done through the piece of broken glasses. So people who so ever even in like I would like to substantiate just a minute I have a data on that just one second I'll just substantiate it.
Rashika Bajaj: So there was a study conducted by the Odisha State Commission for Women and ActionAid, where it was held that because of the social economic structure, gender inequality and insufficient healthcare, women, basically, from the Dalit community weremajorly [00:30:00] focused at the witches over there and treated, they were treated as, mainly focused, focus was that the apprehension was that they used to do evil practices.
Rashika Bajaj: Even if a harm is caused to themselves, they, because they had suffered a lot, it was believed that in future they are doing these evil practices to protect them and take revenge from people over there. Even the intention of the people are not, though also still, there are, like, if so, because that's why I mentioned about the victim protection programs about that.
Rashika Bajaj: And I have added one more point before also stating that people not always do it by bad intentions, but since it's a notion in their mind, we need to change it that which will help in protecting the victim.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, it's correct. Only having a deterrent approach of punishment cannot work here in India, because most of the times they don't even realize whether they're doing something wrong or not. They are in the notion that, since society is accepting it, since everyone is okay with the [00:31:00] fact that this is, this particular thing is happening here, they are right in their own minds. They believe that they are correct. So that needs to be changed and it'll take quite some time to change that, to change this belief.
Jaya Verma: And, I think that,talking about the victim rehabilitation, after this incident of witchcraft accusation happens after, after the victims, they face torture, they face otherissues like they face humiliation, public humiliation. It becomes very difficult for them to go back to that place where they used to live. The ostracizing and the people who are facing the issue right there, they cannot go back to living and they cannot also leave everything and move ahead. So there has to be some institution that couldmake a rehabilitation happen for those victims.
Jaya Verma: And also when trials happen in India, in a sense of, there's a thing called in camera proceedings, so where the names of the victims is not revealed and their identities are not [00:32:00] revealed, which is more dangerous to them when it comes to society. Since this particular kind of social level carries everything, societal reputation is a very big player here. So, these things also need to be accommodated in the victim rehabilitation program, I believe.
Josh Hutchinson: You had talked earlier about,with regard to education, the lack of infrastructure in rural areas, but also, more generally, a lack of infrastructure in rural areas. In addition to schools, what else is needed in these areas? I know you talked about health care being important for women to have good access to get health care.
Jaya Verma: Education and health care definitely being primary infrastructure needs in rural areas. We also need steps to ensure unemployment,unemployment reduces because of the unemployment increasing, poverty increases and as a [00:33:00] result,one of the,one of the professors of sociology at Michigan State University,Soma Choudhuri, she also points out that witchcraft allegations and witch hunting is also a form of stress relief. So, the people there, they are not very,they find their stress gets relieved once they accuse somebody or blame somebody of the problems that are happening to them. Moreover, as poverty increases, they want, there is a superstition, there are beliefs which show that it is, it must be somebody, some person who is causing the evils, because once they do not find an explanation to anything that is happening around them, they start blaming the people, and they start hunting, they start, they start blaming them, punishing them. So, the infrastructure regarding that is also required. Poverty reduction of course.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding to Ma'am's superstitious point,what I have heard from the people in the rural areas when I had a word with them. [00:34:00] Generally, if there is a crop failure or if a woman cannot conceive, basically it's basically in rural areas, be believe that somebody has done something in even to them, the notion of witchcraft comes into their mind. So, in that case, they take them to the witch doctors or what we call you know, Harris Walby or a pandit over here, they take, do some, they with their different means basically cause harm to woman itself as, at times, physical harm, mental harm, which is very stressful for the woman. It's very illogical to hear that beating a woman sometimes can remove the evil spirits inside from inside it, it's, all these are still prevailing in India, and that's basically a violation of human rights of women itself around, which still needs to be worked on over here.
Sarah Jack: What's it going to take to fund these programs?
Rashika Bajaj: With regard to funding of these programs, it's not only [00:35:00] the government who is responsible, but yeah, at one perspective, it's very important for the government to take measures and from the one thing which we have is we can create a specific fund for those women who have been suffered from witchcraft, which can be helpful for them.
Rashika Bajaj: Because once a family takes to, takes a woman to that, that level where she's being tortured by a malvi, and though at times these leads to rape and everything inside, which women are not able to speak because they belong from the rural background, even in the urban, even the women from the urban background, urban background are still not very open to discuss about the issues of rape and all. Government first should provide a specific scheme over there from the state fund itself so that the victims who are there can be given immediate healthcare facilities. And apart from that, as an individual, what I believe is wherever we can have donate or fund create a fund, attend, NGOs. With the help of the [00:36:00] NGO or any other specific body over here. So it will be very helpful for them. And moreover, as I'm pointing out every time, education is the base for everything which I believe.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. That education is really key to give the women their voice.
Rashika Bajaj: Exactly. That's awareness.
Jaya Verma: Regarding the funding, they, they could, since witchcraft accusation and witch hunting, the results of it, the incidence of it is something that is, that is in the nature of an offense, even though it does not find mention in Indian Penal Code, the central criminal legislature in India. But still, if at all a special law is going to be made, it might, there's a possibility that it might be more criminal in nature rather than civil, a civil suit, right? So, if it is criminal, then the funding and all the responsibilities regarding that would lie on the government, on the state here, [00:37:00] more,and,and, the funding has to be done by the government, several, yes, as Rashika said, schemes has to be set up by the government, rehabilitation centers has to be funded by the government itself.
Jaya Verma: However, if, if we could find in the law that it could be in the form of a civil suit or it could be a mixture of criminal and civil, then maintenance to the victims of thewitch hunting or such incidents can be made to be given by the people who are actually responsible for these.
Jaya Verma: And laws regarding maintenance, they work, the laws regarding,making them pay, it works, in our country. Maintenance works in our country, so that could also be, asked for while the trial proceeds towards the decision, yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: Is there a welfare system in India, a social safety net to catch people when misfortune befalls and they lose their money? Is there government support [00:38:00] for people in need?
Rashika Bajaj: We seem to have procedural laws such as CRPC. There are schemes which government have made, government have made for the victims of crimes. If something happens to a member of the family, if they loses a person, then government fund them. In many perspective, government do try to work on these things. The responsibility, states take their own responsibility.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, however, there is not a central structure still.It is also something that, is lacking financial, support or financial stability or security as such, if we have to say that. That is something that is still not, very formalin India. Although, yes, of course, as she pointed out that the disasters that happen,in our country or any accident that happens that,in those cases, compensation is made by the government to the victims. But more so after, if a person loses everything, then there are insurance companies only that are for the rescue, most of the [00:39:00] times.
Josh Hutchinson: And if a person
Jaya Verma: is not, if a person is not, insured, then definitely, they land in trouble. It is a big problem.
Josh Hutchinson: Okay. That's what I was actually going to ask is, are most people insured against things like crop failure and just losing their livelihood?
Jaya Verma: That is another issue here. Why? Because, India, the work, the labor here, the work here is, separated into organized labor and unorganized, organized sector and unorganized sector, and crop failure and things like,agriculture and most of the rural population, whatever they work, the work that they do, they, that falls under the unorganized sector. And the unorganized sector is, it is a little, it's not, in, most of the people are not insured because there's no formal structure of employment in the unorganized sector.So that is something that is not there yet.
Josh Hutchinson: I ask [00:40:00] because we've heard from some other conversations we've had that a social safety net or insurance to help against things like crop failure would help to potentially reduce accusations because. If people have some recourse and they can get their money back or still go on living their life the way they're used to, then they have less reason to accuse somebody.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you have any closing remarks? Is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted to be able to get across?
Sarah Jack: As far as I believe that we have tried to cover most of it like in our own knowledge and whatever we have read through it in our own interest and with regard to witchcraft accusations definitely national strategy is essential to combat that if, which would be my very, essentials, essential and [00:41:00] effective mechanism is necessary. Basically what I want to focus over is that.
Sarah Jack: So, it's not just national law, but national strategies as well.
Josh Hutchinson: Jaya, did you have anything to add to that or anything else you wanted to say?
Jaya Verma: Yeah, definitely, we, about the laws and the strategy, and, they are all required. I also believe that a perspective towards the study of witchcraft accusation that has beengoing through the history of any place, going through the incidents that have been happening, going to the religion and spirituality has been the first step.
Jaya Verma: But if we also move our focus towards sociological and anthropological understanding of why witchcraft accusations happen throughout the world. It is a truth that it happens throughout the world. And it has happened through centuries, through all ages, all the places. And definitely, it must be somewhere connected to how the humans are [00:42:00] reacting to the circumstances, how can something be so pervasive, so worldwide, and not have something in common? So if we find the commonness, if we find that we could maybe work at an international level, since we, it'll all be binding togetherthrough the anthropological or social factors, because history is different for every place and circumstances are different for every place. We know that the reasons for witchcraft in England or in India, in China, they have been similar, but of course, very different as well. So if we could find that would be good. why would a human want to torment or kill or degrade someone so much, do you? Some factors could be de dehumanization or social control orsomething that is making themsome social reputation that they want to have, some predominant nature that they want to impose on somebody else. And of course, one important, very important thing that has made [00:43:00] a lot of human right violations throughout centuries, which is power.how can we focus on that? How can we think over that, is something that, which I wanted to add under the study of this subject.
Amit Anand: Uh,Just like only one thing,maybe we didn't get a chance to talk about today, but obviously this was something that the other episodes have for sure touched on.In terms of, In terms of understanding what is witchcraft and what is gender-based violence,this is what I have observed that at least in India, or at least in societies that are very much, very much patriarchal in their thinking, they tend to confuse these two things. So perhaps they don't have a very clear understanding. So it's all about perception. Either they don't understand what is witchcraft and why it happens, or they do not have a complete understanding of what is gender-based violence. And even if they do [00:44:00] have an understanding of what is gender-based violence, they somehow refuse to include witchcraft within that understanding.
Amit Anand: Now, and this is something, at least in India,most academics or social activists have pointed out that first of all, there is no proper understanding of what is gender-based violence.This was,today both Rashika and Jaya did point out that we have central legislations. We, we also have special legislations. Now, the need for this bifurcation into some extent, one could argue, is because there is no common understanding of what it means. And what do people generally understand in terms of gender-based volumes? If there was, we wouldn't be needing more and more of these things. But again, somebody could also argue that we need special legislations because these are offenses not of a general nature, but of a special character. But then again, the law can only perhaps do so much, and that's why there are more of these bills that are pending. There are [00:45:00] more of these legal loopholes that we need to fill up. So that's one part of it. In terms of the understanding of witchcraft as a whole, I guess this is not, this is something that is very much changing, not just here in India, but everywhere around the world. It could, obviously we are using the term witchcraft and witchcraft accusation, but different places might refer it differently, and although it might fit a very single, it might somehow, obviously there is no definition as such of what is witchcraft accusation anywhere in the world, but practices that might appear to be similar in some ways are clumped together to then fit this kind ofterminology. They are different, nonetheless, and we call it here something else, and somewhere else it might be referred to as some other terminology. Essentially, perhaps in some ways, we are still talking about women being labeled as something because of a [00:46:00] belief or because of superstition or because of just because of the belief in evil or things like that.
Amit Anand: All of this, in some ways, complicates it even more. And you have something as complicated as witchcraft on one side and then you have an international understanding of what is gender-based violence on the global level. And then you come domestically here in India wherein we are still struggling with both of these ideas.
Amit Anand: And then you try to protect victims, survivors. Obviously there are laws and there are mechanisms in place, but then at the end of the day, they really can't in, in some ways everyone's struggling to understand what this is, and that shows not only in the laws that we have or, the laws that we are still trying to implement, but it also shows in terms of those very basic needs that perhaps the government or other bodies could provide to the victims and to the survivors in terms of awareness programs.
Amit Anand: So if we are seeing [00:47:00] awareness program, we really, in some ways, struggle to define the parameters of what that awareness program would look like for communities that haven't had the opportunity to be in the mainstream. We are talking about education, gender-based education. Then what does that actually look like for someone in a metropolitan city and then for someone who is witnessing witchcraft day in and day out in their tribal community?
Amit Anand: So all of this, it's more about how we are understanding it and then how we understand it in the first place, and then how we are in some ways able to make others understand, especially the ones who are suffering and also the ones who are in some ways doing it. So to the oppressor and to the oppressed, what does witchcraft accusation actually look like, or how do they understand these things?
Amit Anand: So the perception of witchcraft and gender-based violence, and how does law fit into all of this, [00:48:00] is something that the more we talk about this, the more episodes we do, the more we talk about people. I guess the answer to this question will come in those conversations. It really can't be just one conversation, because when you get people from diverse backgrounds to talk about these three things, at the very end, we will have a common understanding of, okay, this is, we have a blueprint as such to then in some ways move forward, but again, very large ideas and very vague also to a large extent, but very much needed in order to have a common understanding and provide solutions that actually work on the ground. So yeah, that's the only thing I wanted to say.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Jaya, Rashika, and Amit. Now, Mary Bingham presents Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Every time a woman is accused of being a witch in many countries, her right to [00:49:00] life is taken away. Even if her physical self survives the often violent ordeal, she will have lost the right to be a vital and contributing member of her family and her community. Community leaders can provide immediate shelter for any woman accused that will create space that her perpetrator cannot penetrate. Then her perpetrator should be prosecuted.
Mary Bingham: But this happens in baby steps. These baby steps are becoming leaps as so many organizations with thousands of volunteers work tirelessly to tell these victim stories, offer services to educate the survivors, and healing through their many different talents, strengthen already recorded data and create new data so that new laws can be implemented.
Mary Bingham: Please contact us at End Witch Hunts to find out how you can help to make a difference. Thank you. [00:50:00]
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And Sarah has this week's edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: I want to talk with you about something else important. Every day, we see viral posts of animals with albinism, those pure white penguins, deer, real alligators, and even Kim Kardashian's white alligator Halloween costume. When one of the world's most influential celebrities chooses to embody these rare genetic traits as a costume, It amplifies our cultural obsession with these differences. These posts rack up millions of views, with some believing these genetic traits represent something supernatural or extraordinary. While simply viewing albinism as magical might seem harmless, it's part of a larger pattern where we place higher value on these genetic differences, not for their natural diversity, but for their perceived uniqueness. This pattern of elevating and sensationalizing genetic differences has [00:51:00] serious consequences. For persons with albinism, this isn't just about social media posts or celebrity costumes, it's about how society values or devalues their humanity. These same beliefs about magical properties lead to violenceand trafficking. Treating persons with albinism as mere curiosities overshadows their urgent health needs, leading to critical gaps in healthcare access and life saving interventions. When healthcare systems fail to evolve with the real needs of vulnerable populations, real medical necessities get lost in the shadows.
Sarah Jack: But there's another critical threat, climate change. People and animals with albinism face increased health risks from UV exposure. Many states lack access to basic protective resources like sunscreen and protective clothing because society is not more focused on these urgent health needs.
Sarah Jack: Think about it. Viral social media posts, celebrity influence, climate change, and human rights are [00:52:00] deeply intertwined. Each time we share content that treats genetic differences as supernatural or extraordinary, we are reinforcing a worldview that ultimately compromises human dignity and safety. So next time you see one of these posts, pause for sharing. Consider supporting organizations that provide resources to persons with albinism. Learn about how climate change affects vulnerable populations. Share factual information instead of sensationalizing differences, because genetic diversity isn't here for our entertainment or mystification, it's a natural part of our world that deserves understanding, respect, and protection.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: We'll see you next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

November 5, 2024

Halloween 101: Origins of Fright Night

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Show Notes

Modern Halloween emerges from diverse cultural and religious traditions, each contributing distinct elements to today’s celebrations. From the Celtic festival of Samhain to the Roman Catholic Hallowtide, this episode uncovers the historical threads that connect ancient celebrations to contemporary practices.

We examine the influences of Roman festivals like Pomonalia and Lemuria, investigate the connections to England’s Guy Fawkes Night, and explore parallels with Mexico’s Día de los Muertos. Our discussion reveals how these varied traditions merged to create today’s Halloween, with special attention to Salem’s emergence as America’s Halloween capital.

Featuring insights from past guests, this episode offers a scholarly look at Halloween’s evolution while exploring its connections to witch hunts, folklore, and enduring cultural practices.

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Witch Hunt Episode: Halloween History and Traditions with Scott Culpepper

Witch Hunt Episode: Ain’t it a Scary Halloween with Sean and Carrie

Witch Hunt Episode: Rachel Christ-Doane on the Salem Witch Museum and the Life of Dorothy Good

Witch Hunt Episode: Scottish Witch Trials with Mary W. Craig

Witch Hunt Episode: Marion Gibson on Witchcraft a History in 13 Trials

Witch Hunt Episode: Malcolm Gaskill on the Ruin of All Witches

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Maryland Witches Exoneration Project

Halloween 101_ Origins of Fright Night Download

Transcript

Sarah Jack: [00:00:00] I do not want to meet a malevolent lemur. That sounds scary.
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt and Happy Halloween! I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack O'Lantern. Thank you for joining us today for a Halloween discussion.
Josh Hutchinson: Many traceable cultural and religious influences have shaped the holiday we know and love today.
Sarah Jack: Though Halloween stems largely from the marriage of the Christian celebration of All Hallows' Eve and the Celtic celebration of Samhain, the holiday also contains Roman and English elements and bears some relation to the Mexican Day of the Dead.
Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we'll talk about the ancient Roman holidays of Pomanalia, Vertumnalia, Parentalia, and Lemuria, Celtic Samhain, Roman Catholic Hallowtide, English Guy Fawkes Night, and Mexico's El Día de los Muertos. If it has anything to do with Halloween, we're covering it.
Sarah Jack: Come with us as we explore how Halloween came to be what it is [00:01:00] today and how it has influenced popular culture.
Josh Hutchinson: And of course, it wouldn't be Witch Hunt podcast without a discussion of witches, the devil, and other spooky Halloween fair.
Sarah Jack: Finally, let's visit Salem and learn how it has become the prime destination for American Halloween celebrations.
Josh Hutchinson: In a Halloween episode we did a year ago, Scott Culpepper told us.
Scott Culpepper: We have legendary ideas about where Halloween comes from. Probably most people have heard the term Samhain, the ancient Celtic festival, which supposedly is one of the precursors of Halloween. And a lot of people are aware of that, but they have a lot of folkloric sort of concepts of what that is, and rightfully so, because we really don't know much about what that festival was. Yeah, I think that is definitely one barrier to people learning more about the past of Halloween, and the legend that it's primarily a pagan holiday has really obscured the fact that it's [00:02:00] got those very strong Christian roots and origins. Especially fundamentalist Christians, they'll go off on the pagan rites, and maybe even Greek and Roman rites if they're a little bit better read, that may have been precursors to Halloween, but they don't acknowledge the very deep roots of the observance in the history of the church and the church's attempt to convert pagan peoples in the early medieval period. So definitely, yeah, I think fear, suspicion, and then just the willingness to accept legends that may not actually have had very little to do with the development of the holiday really obscures people's knowledge of the true origins.
Scott Culpepper: And he told us about the importance of mythology to our contemporary understanding of Halloween. So much of what we think we know about the world is entangled with mythologies, and we all have our personal mythologies that we embrace. So it really is, it's a tricky thing. And sometimes the myth is enriching, the myth is empowering, the myth serves a good [00:03:00] purpose.
Josh Hutchinson: The word Halloween, first used in the 18th century, is derived from Hallow Even, a shortening of Hallow Evening, the night before All Saints' Day, which was November 1st. Along with All Souls' Day observed on November 2nd, this trio of important church observances was known as Allhallowtide.
Sarah Jack: Before we go into the details of Hallowtide, let's explore some of the even more ancient roots of Halloween, beginning with related Roman feasts and festivals.
Josh Hutchinson: It's hard to say exactly how much these Roman festivals have contributed to our modern Halloween festivities, but they may indeed have contributed to the Roman Catholic Church then instituting All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day. Those could be connected to Roman festivals earlier.
Sarah Jack: So it's possible that Roman festivals at least indirectly fed elements of Halloween.
Josh Hutchinson: The first of these festivals that we'll discuss is Pomonalia, feast of the Roman [00:04:00] fruit tree goddess Pomona, which was held August 13th along with Vertumnalia, the feast of Pomona's husband, the god Vertumnus, who ruled the changing of seasons.
Josh Hutchinson:
Sarah Jack: The titular Sean and Carrie McCabe from Ain't It Scary with Sean and Carrie podcast gave us some background information about this feast.
Sean and Carrie: Everyone had different traditions going on, but the Romans, it's interesting because so many cultures had this sort of festival, the mark of the end of the harvest and the beginning of the cold seasons, because seasons don't really change, they change every year, but they haven't, they don't vary wildly. They're like, okay, next is when it gets dark and cold, and then it'll get warm and sunny again. So those were things that people would have celebrated since the beginning of time, because that was another common thing that we all [00:05:00] had. We all experienced when it got cold, and then we all experienced when it got warm again.
Sean and Carrie: So the Romans had their own festival. The day's obviously a little wibbly wobbly, because the calendar is a newer thing than a lot of these traditions. But this would be the end of the harvest season for the Romans, and this would celebrate the goddess Pomona.
Sean and Carrie: And this was the deity of the orchards and the harvest, and so they would have to pay tribute to her, because you want the harvest to be good again next year, so you want her to be happy with you. So you would have feasts of plenty, and that would be apples, nuts, and grapes, and orchard fruits, because orchards were a big thing in Rome and you know in that area and so you'd have this big feast and then put everything away for winter and those are the kinds of things that they would dry or try to preserve for the harder seasons.
Josh Hutchinson: In addition to the Feast of Pomona, the Roman festival Parentalia may also have contributed to [00:06:00] Halloween.
Sarah Jack: This festival was marked by a nine day observance,which began every February 13th.
Josh Hutchinson: This was a time for families to honor their deceased ancestors.
Josh Hutchinson: On the final night of Parentalia, February 21st, Romans observed Feralia, when they would leave offerings to appease the dead and prevent their spirits from coming back to haunt the living.
Josh Hutchinson: Another Roman feast appeasing the spirits of the dead was Lemuria, which was held every May.
Sarah Jack: According to Ovid, Lemuria goes back to the earliest days of Rome,
Sarah Jack: when Romulus observed Remuria to appease the spirit of his brother, Remus, who had been murdered.
Josh Hutchinson: On Lemuria, it was believed that lemures and larvae, two forms of malevolent spirits, visited the homes of the living.
Sarah Jack: I do not want to meet a malevolent malevolent lemur. That sounds scary.
Josh Hutchinson: Or malevolent larva spirit. [00:07:00]
Sarah Jack: Romans lured these spirits out of their homes with incantations and offerings of black beans.
Josh Hutchinson: You know, that always gets me to go. The offering of black beans. Just leave a trail and I'll follow it anywhere. Lemuria is cited by some as a precursor to All Souls' Day, when many Christians remember the dead and pray for their souls.
Sarah Jack: Lemuria is also believed to have been observed by some Christians from the 4th century as a day when Christian martyrs were remembered.
Josh Hutchinson: The holiday was later used by Pope Boniface IV to reconsecrate the Pantheon of Rome to the Blessed Virgin and all the martyrs. The feast celebrating this Dedicatio Sanctae Mariae Ad Martyres was observed May 13th.
Sarah Jack: How the feast was moved to November 1st is a matter of debate. Some say the Celts observed All Saints' Day on November 1st, because it coincided with Samhain, the Celtic New [00:08:00] Year, which we'll cover shortly. Others believe the Germans changed the date.
Josh Hutchinson: Whoever it was that first began observing the feast on November 1st, that new date was fixed in place in 835 by Holy Roman Emperor Louis the Pious, with the ascent of Pope Gregory IV and the Roman Catholic bishops.
Sarah Jack: When All Souls' Day was added to the church calendar on November 2nd in the 10th century, a three day Allhallowtide festival was created, incorporating All Hallows' Eve, All Hallows' or All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day.
Josh Hutchinson: These were days for Christians to pray for the dead, and they remain so in some branches of the Christian faith today.
Sarah Jack: An annual vigil mass is held on All Hallows' Eve.
Josh Hutchinson: Then on All Hallows' Day, participants honor departed saints and martyrs, especially those who have not been canonized and do not have their own feast days.
Sarah Jack: On All Souls' Day, the faithful pray for the souls of all departed Christians, especially their family and friends who may be in [00:09:00] purgatory.
Josh Hutchinson: These days, many Christians combine All Saints' and All Souls' Days.
Sarah Jack: However, from 1430 to 1955, the Roman Catholic Church observeda full eight days of Allhallowtide.
Josh Hutchinson: Scott Culpepper had the following to say about All Hallows'.
Scott Culpepper: It's very interesting. You've got these different observances that mark not only the transition of the seasons, but also there arises this belief that that period is a very liminal time, because you've got that transition from greater light to greater darkness. And part of that liminality is the idea that the barrier between the living and the dead becomes more permeable.
Scott Culpepper: There were Roman festivals that were practiced around May 13th that sort of venerated the dead, those who had gone before, and even posited the idea that the dead might be in contact that night. Samhain seems to have had an element of that as well, where the power of the ancestors is invoked to try to help [00:10:00] increase yields in the future, to preserve the people over the course of the long winter months.
Scott Culpepper: So when you move into the early medieval history of the church, a lot of officials are wanting to reach out in a variety of ways to pagan peoples, people who practice the old religions, and bring them into the Christian fold. And one way they do that is by trying to adopt and then co-opt, transform practices that are very popular amongst them.
Scott Culpepper: And one of the things they'll do is to move that festival that in Roman culture happens around May 13th or May 16th to the end of October. And during that point of transition from the greater light to the greater darkness, they will set aside the observance on November the 1st of what's called All Hallows' and the idea behind that initially was to celebrate the saints, because during the early medieval period, the concept of sainthood is beginning to [00:11:00] rise in prominence in the medieval church. And so first and foremost, they set it as a day to celebrate the saints and the way the saints, through their great actions, have set aside treasury and merit for people. That whole sacramental system is developing within the Catholic church.
Scott Culpepper: People are also having a need to acknowledge their own ancestors, as well, not just the sort of super sanctified Christians represented by the Saints, but people that are dear to them, as well. And so they'll also eventually create another day, November 2nd, which is All Souls' Day. All Hallows Day is set aside to commemorate the Saints. November 2nd is set aside to commemorate others who have gone before. So October 31st becomes known as All Hallows' Eve, the day before All Hallows Day. And eventually it gets transformed from All Hallows' Eve or Even to Halloween, the compound word, it gets all incorporated together.
Sarah Jack: [00:12:00] Sean and Carrie McCabe added this.
Sean and Carrie: There is that, probably in our perspective today of they're connecting with the dead and their ancestors, that's spooky, but they wouldn't have seen it that way. It's very much like something like Dia de los Muertos, where it's more of a reverence. Part of the spookiness, I would have to say, came from the Christians assimilating pagan traditions to try and, you know, like, well, they're already celebrating this, so we can figure it into our feast calendar and try to get them to join Christianity but not have to give up all of their traditions, and so they really went deep into the idea of a time of the dead, because they couldn't really call it the same way that it was, which was like a harvest festival paying tribute to the harvest, which was like a godlike figure.
Sean and Carrie: You can't do that in [00:13:00] Christianity, so they changed it to All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day. That was the time of what would be called Hallowmas, November 1st and 2nd. And so the Saints' Day would be to mark the saints, especially in Catholicism, obviously, and then All Souls' Day would be for the spirits of those who had passed already. The idea of the dead got involved in the tributes. There would be a lot of prayers. People started baking soul cakes to you couldn't make sacrifices anymore to the dead, because that was pagan. So you could bake these cakes and make them as offerings, which became our treats that you would give out on Halloween.
Josh Hutchinson: The eight day observance of All Hallowtide was removed from the liturgical calendar during a series of reforms instituted by Pope Pius XII.
Sarah Jack: Through the millennia, the end of October hasn't only been a time to remember the departed, it has also been a time to celebrate harvests and prepare for winter.
Josh Hutchinson: In parts of Britain, [00:14:00] ancient harvest festivals continued to be observed well into the Christian era.
Sarah Jack: Over time, Halloween emerged as a syncretized holiday, fusing the Christian season of Hallowtide with these earlier pagan festivals, principally Celtic, with some Roman contributions, as we have mentioned.
Josh Hutchinson: The Celtic festival most commonly associated with Halloween is Samhain, which Sarah mentioned was the Celtic New Year festival.
Sarah Jack: Scholars know precious little about what actually went down on Samhain in ancient times.
Josh Hutchinson: It was believed that as the Northern Hemisphere transitioned into the darkest months of the year, the mythical veil between the worlds thinned, allowing spirits to interact with the physical world.
Sarah Jack: To ward off spirits, Celts built great bonfires and called upon the gods, gratifying them with sacrifices of animals and possibly humans.
Josh Hutchinson: While it is known that Northern Europeans did perform human sacrifices, it is not known whether these took place on Samhain or at [00:15:00] other times.
Sarah Jack: It is likely that the participants sacrificed animals as they culled their herds for the harsh winter months.
Josh Hutchinson: No hard evidence exists to prove that Celts used Samhain to honor the dead or to worship their ancestors.
Sarah Jack: We did learn from Mary Craig that the Celts went guising, wearing masks to hide from spirits.
Mary W Craig: We still go out at Halloween, we go out guising, you guys go out trick-or-treating, and that's going way back. That's pre-Christian, that's a pre-Christian festival that we all still know. I mean, it's fun, and the kids get sweeties and candy.
Josh Hutchinson: And Scott Culpepper told us more about Samhain.
Scott Culpepper: It's an ancient Celtic festival that was practiced around the time of the end of October, about the time that we now celebrate Halloween, and it marked the transition from the days of light to the time of darkness. It seems like in a variety of different ancient religious systems there was an attachment of the religious system to the cycles of agriculture, as you would expect, because most people's lives depended very much on that [00:16:00] cycle operating successfully and that ties you to the mystical forces that foster the earth, that whatever deities you believe in, they're expressed through those natural cycles and through natural phenomena.
Scott Culpepper: And so the idea was you're getting to the end of the cycle of growth. You're entering the time of harvest when things need to be as perfect as possible for you to have a good crop to last through the winter. And you're entering the time of darkness. Days are going to get shorter. The nights are going to get longer until, of course, finally, you get to the winter solstice, when you have the very longest night of the year. And so it's seen as a time of death and a time of pending rebirth, so to speak, as you're entering into the winter months.
Scott Culpepper: And so from what we know, Samhain is a celebration of that, an expectation of what's to come and an honoring of what happened in the past. It seems like they were probably ceremonial rituals with bonfires, maybe people bringing some of the [00:17:00] produce that had been harvested in those fall months, and just crying out to the gods for a good winter and fruitful times to come in the future.
Scott Culpepper: And so it's very much marking that point of transition. It's one of several observances throughout the year that marks the point of transition. Having said that, that's what we know, but there's so much we don't know about exactly what happened.
Scott Culpepper: And one of our struggles to understand a lot of the ancient Celtic religions of the British Isles is the fact that most of the information we get about them is mediated through other people, particularly the Romans. And the Romans had all kinds of reasons to exaggerate and to misrepresent what was being practiced. People like Julius Caesar, Tacitus, many other Roman historians, they'll write about the people of the British Isles and they'll record the actions of the Druids, who were said to be the priestly class among the Celtic peoples of the British [00:18:00] Isles, and they'll talk about human sacrifice. They'll talk about the resistance of Celtic peoples to the Romans. And so you get these very enticing images of Celtic peoples worshiping out in the groves with the sacred trees and all of that, a lot of which probably is based on accurate information to some degree, but then you get a lot of things about ritual sacrifice and all that as well that we're not nearly as sure about.
Scott Culpepper: We do appear to have some archaeological evidence of people dying violently in some parts of the British Isles, and so the scholarly community is very divided about the degree to which there might have been human sacrifice, and if there was, in what way or what context it operated. Most scholars that I've seen would argue that where there were sacrifices or offerings, they typically were animals or they were the produce of the earth, the things that had been gathered during the harvest, more so than human [00:19:00] sacrifice. But there is still an ongoing debate about there being pockets where human sacrifice was practiced.
Scott Culpepper: Now, of course, for the Romans, this is the kind of thing that they certainly wanted to magnify and amplify. They're overcoming these, what they would view as twisted cultures, uncivilized cultures. And then with the transition of the Roman Empire to being a Christian empire, you get a lot of Christian leaders who are willing to sign on to those legends, as well, because again, they're Christianizing these people who are uncivilized, who are practicing violence against others. And so it's something that got a lot of legs.
Scott Culpepper: We really don't know all of the specifics, but at least those are some of the things that we know about the traditions of Samhain.
Sarah Jack: Sean and Carrie McCabe added.
Sean and Carrie: So yeah, there's no real start date as these things go. They just appear in time. And the thing that we can really trace back the most to [00:20:00] today's Halloween in the past is to the Celts, the Druids. These are people that lived in early Ireland, Wales, England, Scotland, that whole area. And they had a really nature-based lifestyle. They were a nature-based religion. It was a pagan religion based on nature. And they were farmers and they lived on the land, so they were very connected to the earth.
Sean and Carrie: And the original Halloween was one of their pagan traditions to celebrate, Samhain, is what it was called and still called by pagan practitioners today, and that's really to mark the onset of winter and basically when the harvest was done. Back in the day, we've always had dramatic climate changes and weather changes, and at this point in time, at that place in the world, you really had two halves of the [00:21:00] year. You had the summer half. And the winter half. It was really much more like six months, six months, and this was to celebrate the onset of the winter half of the year, where you would bring in the harvest and hibernate and not be harvesting and farming as much. So it was really their New Year celebration and a lot of those things that we associate with this time of year, those harvests and cornucopias and all that fun stuff, really comes from that this was a harvest, like a pagan harvest celebration to mark the end of that time of year.

Josh Hutchinson: Because of the non-Christian origins of elements of Halloween festivities, there are people who believe that Halloween itself is evil, and that different aspects of it are evil, sinister, and opening doors to Satan.
Sarah Jack: Some Samhain elements like costumes and Jack O'lanterns [00:22:00] are indeed part of Halloween today. However, we just don't think of their original purposes.
Josh Hutchinson: And the pre-Christian Celts did not even have a Satan,so these things don't have satanic origins, though you could look at them as sinister and dark if you believe that human sacrifices were performed at them, like the wicker man sacrifices that some of the Romans wrote about.
Sarah Jack: The Romans who actually wrote about that stuff were recording second and third-hand information and might have really exaggerated things. So we don't know at Samhain if people were being killed or not.
Josh Hutchinson: And while some very old Irish manuscripts reference the practice of killing children, these were written hundreds of years after the Christianization of the British Isles.
Sarah Jack: Whether that was an actual Samhain practice is impossible to know at this point.
Josh Hutchinson: As we've seen, Halloween was thus the offspring of Allhallowtide and Samhain.
Sarah Jack: With some other elements mixed in, depending on the time and place of observation.
Josh Hutchinson: As the child of [00:23:00] Samhain and Allhallowtide, Halloween blended characteristics of both, and thus became a fusion of the sacred and the profane.
Josh Hutchinson: And that was your cat.
Sarah Jack: By profane, we don't necessarily mean obscene. We just mean that whether you're a Celtic pagan or a Christian, Halloween blends what is sacred to you with what is outside the sacred.
Josh Hutchinson: Halloween became very popular in Ireland and Scotland, while after 1605, an event called Guy Fawkes Night gained more traction in England.
Sarah Jack: Guy Fawkes? We went by his house when we were in England!
Josh Hutchinson: In York! And we learned a little bit about the Gunpowder Plot.
Sarah Jack: That's right, Guy Fawkes was one of a group of English Catholic conspirators who plotted to kill King James VI and I.
Josh Hutchinson: They were going to blow up the Parliament while the King was there for the start of its session.
Sarah Jack: The State Opening of Parliament was scheduled for November 5th, and that's when the proverbial fireworks, in this case 36 barrels of gunpowder, were intended to [00:24:00] go off.
Josh Hutchinson: But somebody tipped off the government, and during a search of the House of Lords on the night of November 4th, guards found Guy Fawkes guarding the barrels.
Sarah Jack: It was estimated that the amount of gunpowder was enough to destroy the House of Lords, where the king was due to address Parliament the next day, in a tradition which continues to the present day.
Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately for Guy Fawkes's cause, the discovery of the plot led to backlash against Catholics, increasing the oppression that the conspirators thought they were fighting against.
Sarah Jack: The parliament found the defeat of this conspiracy to be so worth celebrating that in January 1606 it passed an act mandating annual observances in the Church of England.
Josh Hutchinson: And required all people to go to church for this new annual service.
Sarah Jack: The law stayed on the books until 1859.
Josh Hutchinson: In addition to the mandatory Gunpowder Treason Day church service, individuals and communities celebrated Guy Fawkes night with bells, [00:25:00] bonfires, and fireworks.
Sarah Jack: Guy Fawkes and sometimes other reviled individuals were frequently burned in effigy during these events.
Josh Hutchinson: Early English settlers of the North American colonies brought Guy Fawkes Night over with them.
Sarah Jack: And Irish and Scottish immigrants brought Halloween superstitions to the United States and Canada.
Josh Hutchinson: Scott Culpepper told us.
Scott Culpepper: It comes pretty early in the sense, and I, to kind of preface that, it would be important to talk about where it stood in the British Isles, especially, but in other parts of Europe too, about the time that the American colonies began to come together. The Reformation had really affected people's concept in the British Isles of Halloween and how its origins played into current politics and culture. You'd had the reform movements, the Protestant Reformation. You'd had the answering Catholic reform movements within the Catholic Church. In the British Isles, especially, Halloween is suspect because of its [00:26:00] Catholic associations, which is interesting. Now it's suspect because of its supposed, supernatural or demonic associations. At the time, it was suspect because they rightly saw it as a very Catholic sort of observance.
Scott Culpepper: And of course, Protestants reject the idea of purgatory, and so the entire premise of this in many ways, and also they reject Saints. So the whole premise of this cycle of days is a problem for them. And so they very actively campaigned against it. Protestantism as it comes to the fore in England is somewhat puzzled about how to deal with it. Under Henry VIII, they really didn't do much about it because he was a very pragmatic sort of reformer. With Edward, his son, he tries to ban observances of Halloween, and then of course with his sister Mary, they go the other way, Mary tries to revive it because of her Catholicism.
Scott Culpepper: Finally, under Elizabeth, Protestantism gains control of the conversation, and Halloween is less often commemorated. But then [00:27:00] at the very beginning of the 17th century, in 1605, you get the infamous Gunpowder Plot, where Guy Fawkes tries to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and immediately after that, the year after Guy Fawkes is executed for that crime, you get the birth of Guy Fawkes Day.
Scott Culpepper: And so during the 17th century, a lot of the things we associate with Halloween, they're being practiced as part of Guy Fawkes Day observances, and it's an interesting patchwork quilt where you see Guy Fawkes being magnified. The Guy Fawkes Day Celebration in some parts of the British Isles. And in those pockets where Catholicism is stronger, you see still Halloween, or at least those sort of pre-Halloween observances still practiced.
Scott Culpepper: And it's interesting because a lot of the customs are the same for both. They'll have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. For instance, one thing that's practiced in the Catholic tradition at the time of Halloween is that poor people would go to the homes of people who are a little bit more affluent, [00:28:00] and they would ask for offerings to pray for the souls of those who had gone before, those who are in purgatory. So if you're a poor person, you go to a family and say, if you give me something, I will give prayers throughout the rest of the year for your family members who have gone on. Of course, Protestants are not open to that theology, but it becomes a way still of gathering alms. And so here. you see the incipient origins of the idea of trick-or-treat the idea of people coming for candy.
Scott Culpepper: So I go into all that as background, just to say that it was in a very interesting place in the British Isles. And so when colonists first came to America, they brought that with them. If you had more Protestant immigrants, they're going to tend to commemorate Guy Fawkes Day more in that Protestant tradition.
Scott Culpepper: If you're a Scotch-Irish immigrant, you're from the Highlands or whatever, and you're more Catholic in your orientation, you'll probably practice some of those older [00:29:00] versions of Halloween folklore, Halloween observances. But it's interesting because some of the customs were the same all around.
Scott Culpepper: Looks like it really begins to get a lot of attention from people like Longfellow and Hawthorne in the 19th century. Robert Burns had been writing about it in his Scottish poetry in the late 18th century. it's being practiced, it's part of the custom, probably about the mid to late 19th century is when it really starts to get traction in American culture.
Scott Culpepper: I've heard some people refer to the Civil War and say that the large number of dead, coming out of the Civil War may have given an impetus to this obsession with the dead, with commemorating the dead, with the idea of the veil between this world and the next, as that's also the time when spiritualism is really popular in American culture, probably in part because of all the deaths that were suffered during the civil war and people's desire to get in touch with their loved [00:30:00] ones.
Scott Culpepper: So that seems to be the moment when it becomes more popular, although it's a very different sort of celebration then than it's ultimately going to become.
Sarah Jack: In colonial days, Halloween and Guy Fawkes Night, where they were observed, were in competition with each other.
Josh Hutchinson: The Puritans in New England did not care for either.
Sarah Jack: But evidence of punishment for bonfire-lighting and other holiday activity is evidence that these festivals were observed by some colonists even in New England.
Josh Hutchinson: After the American Revolution, Halloween beat out Guy Fawkes Night to become North America's number one night for bonfires and pranks.
Sarah Jack: Guy Fawkes Night, closely associated with the English monarchy, went out of style over time, though it lingered into the 19th century in parts of the former colonies.
Josh Hutchinson: George Washington himself forbade his troops from celebrating Guy Fawkes Day, particularly from burning an effigy of the Pope, which he worried would offend the people of Canada, [00:31:00] whom he hoped would join the Patriot cause.
Sarah Jack: Sadly, there's no portrait of Washington in Halloween costume.
Sarah Jack: And no record that he ever bobbed for apples with his wooden teeth or handed out gifts to trick-or-treaters. Halloween, from the early modern period well into the 20th century, was a night of vandalism and depending whose side you took, general mischief or depraved hooliganism.
Josh Hutchinson: If you think toilet papering and egg throwing are destructive, you should have seen Halloween in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Sarah Jack: Scott Culpepper told us this about Halloween in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Scott Culpepper: There was this tradition of the Lords of Misrule in the early modern period, where people would also play pranks. It was a time a lot like some of the other festivals, too, like Carnival, where you had this inversion of the social structure, where people could pretend to be something else, and you would have people put on [00:32:00] masks and basically pretend to be something other than they were. They could dress like a lord or a lady.
Scott Culpepper: And sometimes people would engage in pranks that were quite cruel. They would damage property. There were instances in the early modern period where people challenged each other to go and to mock a witch as a way of essentially trying to control malevolent powers in the area. So some poor woman is going to be beset by people accusing her of being a witch. And a lot of those sort of customs continue, probably carried by Irish and Scottish immigrants into the late 19th century.
Scott Culpepper: You get a lot of pranks during Halloween, and it begins to get out of hand, so much so that by the time of the Great Depression, there are people who are concerned that there's too much vandalism, too much rowdiness, the holiday has gotten very out of control, and so it's during the Great Depression that retailers and other [00:33:00] culture producers begin to work to transform the holiday.
Scott Culpepper: They basically set out to tame the holiday, and one of the ways they're going to do that is by making it a more child-focused event. They'll take some of these customs, such as coming and asking for favors to be granted, trick-or-treat, and they'll start to encourage the idea of giving candy to those who come, people coming just to seek gifts for nothing in return, as a way to pacify those who might engage in more socially unacceptable behaviors, and this actually came from a custom where people would sometimes pay folks off that they thought were going to engage in rowdy behavior. In the 1910s, 1920s, some people who want to protect their property, they would pay folks off. And so this is a way of taming that, making it more culturally acceptable
Sarah Jack: In [00:34:00] 1908, merrymakers in Belton, Texas made so merry that they practically burned the town down, destroying homes, freight cars, and cotton bales for a total ofup to $250,000 in damages.
Josh Hutchinson: It was common for revelers, mostly young men, to tear up wooden sidewalks, fences, verandas, and anything else they could pry apart.
Sarah Jack: Halloween was a dangerous night to be in an outhouse as groups of young men enjoyed tipping them over.
Josh Hutchinson: Definitely unpleasant to be on the other side of that transaction. And pranksters would unhinge gates and doors and place them in intersections or use them in their bonfires.
Sarah Jack: Intersections were popular places to find automobiles, freight cars, wagons, and anything else movable the morning after Halloween.
Josh Hutchinson: Sounds a lot like the senior prank week in American high schools.
Sarah Jack: But, like, to the max. Some of it was these pranks, but other parts of it were dangerous. There were people putting things on [00:35:00] railroad tracks or actually tearing tracks up and that kind of thing on Halloween to cause real accidents to happen.
Josh Hutchinson: There were some close calls with trains and trolley cars because of obstructions and damage to the tracks. I read about one trolley driver who got a fright from a dummy being placed in the tracks and threw on the brakes as fast as he could. And I've read about others where if a trolley ran uphill, the people would grease the tracks.
Sarah Jack: And stealing, theft, and even strong arm robbery have been part of Halloween since this mischief making element came into play.
Josh Hutchinson: Basically, gangs of teenage boys and young men used to hold shopkeepers hostage, essentially.They'd say, we've got you outnumbered here, give us what we want, and then we'll go away.
Sarah Jack: I hope they did go away.
Josh Hutchinson: I hope so.
Sarah Jack: And girls were expected to have little parties at home, tea party kinds of things.They would play games where they would look in the mirror or other divination [00:36:00] games, possibly the Venus glass, to figure out who their husband was going to be.
Josh Hutchinson: They do some things like burn nuts and see which way that they popped in the fire to know if a relationship was going to last.The thing that people would say was, you're going to be in home where you're safe and everything because you're women. We can't have you out roaming the streets at night.
Sarah Jack: But for the boys, they need to go get it all out on Halloween.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's like the Purge. They just need to get it all out of their system. All the mischief that they could be doing throughout the year, we're just going to get them to do it all on one night.
Sarah Jack: At this time, there was not formal police. You had a handful of men walking the town, making sure it wasn't under attack from the outside, but you didn't have the professional police forces, like criminal justice, or anything like that.
Sarah Jack: So often when things would get out of hand on Halloween, they'd call in volunteers or a [00:37:00] posse to deal with the rabble-rousing. There were constables, but that was an elected position that basically landholding men took turns doing. So it was like being the neighborhood dog catcher or fence viewer, being a constable.
Sarah Jack: You certainly didn't go to a police academy or anything. You didn't learn criminal procedure. You didn't learn how to investigate. You didn't learn how to do things by the book. There was no book. There was nobody that that was their career.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. It was just a temporary job for them for a year at a time, usually. But by the 1920s, however, police forces were professionalized. And many citizens had had enough of the midnight madness on Halloween.
Sarah Jack: Community minded organizations began sponsoring trunk or treats, oh wait, that's not in the 1920s. Sponsoring Halloween celebrations to [00:38:00] distract the youth from destroying their areas.
Josh Hutchinson: And enough people were complaining to the police that cities finally had to listen up and provide better security.
Sarah Jack: Gradually, Halloweenwas subdued and commercialized.
Josh Hutchinson: But the wild revelry did not go down without a fight.
Sarah Jack: Indeed, Halloween vandalismand arson has continued though to a lesser degree, hopefully.
Sarah Jack: Now let's talk about a holiday that's something like a distant cousin of Halloween, the Day of the Dead.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, you can look at both Halloween and El Día de los Muertos in similar ways. They're both the result of multiple threads of traditions meeting up with each other.
Sarah Jack: Day of the Dead combines some ancient Mexican traditions that were there prior to contact with the Spanish with All Saints' Day, All Souls' Day and All Hallows' Eve.
Josh Hutchinson: These Catholic holidays and the ancient festivals that came together with them formed the holiday that there is today.
Sarah Jack: And Halloween's the same situation because it's also from Allhallowtide, those same three holy days in [00:39:00] reverence to the dead, and Samhain, the Celtic festival.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, those two things come together in both Halloween and the Day of the Dead. They're both fusions of Allhallowtide with older traditions native to the lands where they were developed.
Sarah Jack: And Scott Culpepper said the following about the Day of the Dead.
Scott Culpepper: So many of the areas that commemorate the Day of the Dead, especially in Latin America, Spain, Italy. These are places that are very heavily Catholic influenced, and it's an interesting sort of joining of popular folklore and Catholic tradition.
Scott Culpepper: So definitely, I would say they stem from many of the same roots, and I think you see that, especially in the fact that some of the rites of Mardi Gras, Fat Tuesday, and Carnivale, in parts of Latin America, they're similar to things that are done on the Day of the Dead. They have a similar purpose, commemorating those who have gone before, especially in cultures that believe in purgatory, praying for those you love to advance through purgatory well.
Scott Culpepper: So yes, definitely there are affinities there, and it's [00:40:00] just a great recipe. It's a great mix. As we were talking about earlier, Sarah said the importance of acknowledging mythology and the richness of it. We try to draw these hard barriers, these hard lines, especially in a lot of contemporary cultures, and the reality is it's all a big soup flowing together. It's the Christian traditions, it's the pagan traditions. Once all of that arrives in North and South America, it's the traditions of the Native peoples there, as well.
Josh Hutchinson: Another type of holiday people don't always associate with Halloween is the harvest festival, such as Thanksgiving. Indeed, many harvest festivals and fairs still happen around Halloween today.
Sarah Jack: The kind of concurrent development of Thanksgiving, as well as Halloween, differentiated the two over time. Halloween before was really a very harvest centered occasion.
Josh Hutchinson: And then Americans decided that, well, Thanksgiving's going to be our major harvest festival in the United States.
Sarah Jack: So Halloween still has some harvest themes like candy corn, corn [00:41:00] mazes, bobbing for apples, pumpkins on display.
Josh Hutchinson: And the reason it's like a feast originated with Samhain and with other harvest festivals. There would be a harvest feast, because you had to cull your herds and prepare your food for the winter. So there would be a plentiful supply of meat and crops at Halloween time.
Sarah Jack: You could have just the amount of animals that you could get through the winter, your strongest animals. Then you'd cull the rest of them, and then you'd end up having that meat for the winter. But you'd also celebrate right therethat night on a feast.
Josh Hutchinson: And then that paired up with the All Souls' Day tradition of making soul cakes as kind of an offering for the departed and became the tradition of paying people to do prayers for you, paying them with soul cakes and other treats.
Sarah Jack: Did you say witch cakes? No, I'm just kidding.
Josh Hutchinson: That's probably the biggest. Don't pay with which cakes, soul cakes, ,
Sarah Jack: Over time, Halloween went from a meat-oriented holiday to a dessert-oriented holiday and then to a candy-oriented [00:42:00] holiday as trick-or-treating really took off, because people originally were trick-or-treating for nuts and fruit and bread, whole foods, not just candies.
Josh Hutchinson: They were looking to get meals. And for people facing food insecurity, it was a really important day for them for their own winter preparations to get some food from some other people.
Sarah Jack: But once it became trick-or-treating, and especially with the different scares over supposed razor blades in apples, and people allegedly drugging foods, it became just pre-packaged candies that is now, easy to hand out and easy to just carry around in a big bag.
Josh Hutchinson: Personally, I think we should get back to helping people prepare for winter at Halloween time.
Sarah Jack: I think that's a great idea. People could give to food banks and clothing donation centers.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we could do something good with Halloween.Make a collection drive a community event.
Sarah Jack: It's not too late to donate to your local food bank or to share last year's coat with someone in need now.
Josh Hutchinson: So, now let's [00:43:00] talk pop culture and how pop culture and Halloween influence each other.
Sarah Jack: It's two way communication. People dress up as their favorite characters from movies and TV, but at the same time, the movies and TV reflect what's going on in culture.
Josh Hutchinson: So you get movies and TV about Halloween, and then those become themselves Halloween traditions, so then they're feeding the holiday.
Sarah Jack: It just keeps evolving in those ways, the way that culture presents it. People take that on.
Josh Hutchinson: I've just read Halloween: from Pagan Ritual to Party Night by Nicholas Rogers. And one interesting point that he makes is in the horror genre, originally the monsters used to be literal monsters and not anything like humans.
Sarah Jack: You had people like Frankenstein's monster, King Kong, Godzilla, mummies, and vampires were kind of human, but not. A wolfman would be kind of human, but not.
Josh Hutchinson: Definitely not. Different enough. They're mostly these unreal [00:44:00] monsters. It wasn't human murderers, which is what horror morphed into later as fears of serial killers grew in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. That's when you got all these slashers coming out that featured depraved serial killers and mass murderers.
Sarah Jack: Like Michael Myers from Halloween, basically, a Superman, almost immortal, very hard to destroy, and so are Jason and Freddy Krueger. Freddy's a dream guy. He's really hard to get rid of.
Josh Hutchinson: Another thing was, as these horror films went on also, originally the people who got rid of the monster were professionals, police officers and military. They were always men.
Sarah Jack: But then you got into the final girl situations where it was a young woman or a girl that would actually ultimately defeat the villain.
Josh Hutchinson: But the final girl would only defeat them temporarily. And then the villain would come back in the next movie and do it all over again and get back to another final girl and she'd defeat him [00:45:00] temporarily.
Sarah Jack: And then he would come back in the next movie again.
Josh Hutchinson: And so on through 10 or 12 or 50 movies. The author, Nicholas Rogers, also pointed out some more interesting things about horror and what happened over time. For instance, in Psycho in 1960, during the shower scene, they only showed one stab. It wasn't one of these movies that we have nowadays where it's stab, stab, stab with blood spurting everywhere and body parts coming off, that kind of thing that by the end of the decade, you were starting to get in horror movies.
Sarah Jack: More maiming and dismemberment and blood and guts, gore. You started to get gore where before it was more suspense and the threat really drove the movie. And then it became sex and gore.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. And sex was always a part of Halloween on some level, because there were courtship rituals and the whole, who's going to be my spouse thing. And there were, at least in wealthier [00:46:00] circles, dances where you did have young men and young women coming together at Halloween to try and promote courtship. And as a night with relaxed inhibitions, it became more of a sexy night. And now when you look at the costumes, there's a lot of sexy.
Josh Hutchinson: Right? You go to Spirit Halloween and just walk down the aisles and the number of costumes that are called sexy this or that is staggering. You could be a sexy crocodile or a sexy mummy or a sexy anything, a sexy vegetable, if you want.
Sarah Jack: And there are Halloween sex symbols like Elvira, the queen of Halloween.
Josh Hutchinson: Elvira, definitely a big sex symbol, and even the vampire thing that you got going back to the Gothic era of writing really was very sexual, along with the threat of violence and the actual violence, there was that sexual tension between the vampire and the victim.
Josh Hutchinson: And then a trend that you see in the [00:47:00] development of Halloween is that people are always trying to push the envelope. Whatever the envelope happens to be at that time, Halloween is a day for pushing the boundaries, especially sexual boundaries.
Josh Hutchinson: Now, let's turn our attention to some of the specific Halloween traditions that survive today.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I want to start with the colors. Orange and black have been associated with Halloween longer than I've been alive, and that's saying a lot these days.
Sarah Jack: Purple and green is starting to nudge black and orange over.
Josh Hutchinson: And then there's Jack O'Lanterns, they're still everywhere, and they date back potentially thousands of years, at Samhain they were used to ward off spirits.
Sarah Jack: Back then, they were lanterns made of turnips, and they may have been used to turn spirits away from homes and fields.
Josh Hutchinson: Another way of dealing with malicious spirits was simply to hide from them, and that's why people began masking themselves on Samhain.
Sarah Jack: So there are definitely [00:48:00] pieces of Samhain that still live on today. We just lost our connection with the reasons for why we're doing these things. We're just doing them out of tradition and just for fun, whereas before, they used to have real profound meaning.
Josh Hutchinson: It could have been seen as a matter of life or death to observe the proper rituals and avoid the spirits.
Sarah Jack: Today that masking you mentioned, known as guising, has become trick-or-treat.
Josh Hutchinson: It has. As Halloween matured, parents wanted to give their children an opportunity to participate in the festivities, and going around in costumes seemed a fun way to let them use their little imaginations.
Sarah Jack: And who doesn't like being rewarded with sweet treats?
Josh Hutchinson: I know, I sure do. Trick-or-treating today is a ubiquitous feature of Halloween, but there have been a number of scares which have curtailed, at least for a time, that activity.
Sarah Jack: It started with rumors of razor blades in apples.
Josh Hutchinson: And then spread to involve drugged candy.
Sarah Jack: These days, [00:49:00] people worry that fentanyl is being added to candy.
Josh Hutchinson: And yet, there have been only a handful of confirmed Halloween incidents related to trick-or-treating.
Sarah Jack: Other than some of the strong arm robbery that goes on between little kids and bullies, or the parents who get in the candy bowl after the kids are in bed.
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yes. And theft from your own children's. But that's a time honored Halloween tradition. You can't take that away from us.
Sarah Jack: It's profound.
Josh Hutchinson: There is that with the bullies stealing from the younger children, but on a more serious note, only a couple of Halloween fatalities have been linked to candy-tampering and those both involve people in the victim's families, not strangers.
Sarah Jack: Though stranger danger continues to be a common fear, which is why parents tend to accompany their children or follow in their cars.
Josh Hutchinson: And a big reason behind the surge in trunk-or-treating today.
Sarah Jack: Personally, I hope trick-or-treating never [00:50:00] dies. I love to be visited by all the costumes.
Josh Hutchinson: And I hope it continues to, I just remember it so fondly from childhood. I want it for all the children.
Sarah Jack: I love hearing the laughter. So there's groups that trick-or-treat together, sometimes it's neighbors.
Sarah Jack: There's laughter in between the houses. It's so great.
Josh Hutchinson: Just sitting on your porch and seeing all your neighbors and the little, the kids and families coming out. It's one of those few days where you actually might talk to a neighbor.
Sarah Jack: Sadly, it's, that's true. So we've covered the candy connection. Now, what about all those frightening costumes and decorations people love so much?
Josh Hutchinson: Well, ghouls, ghosts, and goblins have been associated with Halloween since its inception, as there was that belief in the thin veil between the visible world and the usually invisible world.
Sarah Jack: And skeletons and skulls, of course, are associated with the dead [00:51:00] who are honored on Allhallowtide or may come back to visit the living.
Josh Hutchinson: Anything that goes bump in the night can be useful on Halloween to give a little fright.
Sarah Jack: That sounds like an awesome rhyme from one of those 50s Halloween planner books.
Sarah Jack: That's great. But some of those things that go bump are newer creations from the pop culture we spoke of earlier.
Josh Hutchinson: Some of those things, like bats and black cats, didn't appear at Halloween until the 19th century when Gothic authors wrote about vampires turning into bats and black cats turning their humans into murderers.
Josh Hutchinson: And Black cats have really been maligned as this possible source of bad luck. Every black cat that I've ever met has been pleasant and brought good things. So be nice to black cats today and every day.
Sarah Jack: And I'd like to thank Wesley, the Dread Pirate Roberts, for enriching this episode.
Josh Hutchinson: a fusion of the [00:52:00] sacred
Josh Hutchinson: Do not be mean to the black cats.
Sarah Jack: And of course, those more recent creations in books, comics, radio, theater, television, and film have graced Halloween festivities as they've come out.
Josh Hutchinson: And of course, witches are an important part of modern Halloween and have been part of Halloween for quite some time.
Sarah Jack: Before we discuss that, I'd like to say again that there are different types of witches with very different characteristics and behaviors.
Josh Hutchinson: I agree. You have the notion of the evil witch who gets powers from Satan or other malevolent entities, depending on which culture and religion the witch is in the conception of. These are the mythical witches who are the targets of witch hunts. They do not really exist.
Sarah Jack: Our show is usually about hunts for these types of witches who are still believed to be real by a large portion of the world's population.[00:53:00]
Josh Hutchinson: To learn more about these, we'll turn to what Marion Gibson told us about magic.
Marion Gibson: Magic is a force which cannot be explained by other factors such as science, rationality, observable, physical, or material changes of that kind. But it's more than that, really. It's what people choose to define as magic. So in some cases, some of the phenomena that people have thought were magical in the past or think to be magical today can actually be explained in other ways. But people choose not to because they want to see those things as being magical. And of course, magic can be a positive or a negative thing. So if you accuse your neighbor of being a witch and doing magic, obviously that's a terribly negative thing. But you might also see magic as a positive thing. And one of the ways the witch turns up in contemporary culture is a kind of positive magician, somebody who's sparkly and glamorous and exciting and maybe even a role model. [00:54:00] Magic accompanies the idea of the witch throughout history, really.
Sarah Jack: And Marion said this about the witch.
Marion Gibson: The witch is a very movable thing, but often defined as an enemy. So one of the places that the witch fits into society, even over such a long historical period, is that they are a very useful enemy. And if they, if you don't think they exist already, you need to invent them because they fill that gap in society where scapegoats and those who challenge authority, people who are subversive, people who are seen to be problematic, certain racial, religious, cultural others. Those people fit. So The witch is is useful when you want to say, I do believe the world is full of magic. It's full of spirits. It's a highly religious world. And I think that because God has his good people on one side, therefore, Satan must have his bad people on the other side. And those people [00:55:00] must be witches and they must be able to do real magic.
Marion Gibson: So the witch is useful more than anything else, useful throughout history.
Josh Hutchinson: And Malcolm Gaskill had this to say about the imaginary evil witch.
Malcolm Gaskill: Just that question, what is a witch? It's such an incredibly multifaceted and mutable concept.
Malcolm Gaskill: So again, you have the biblical witch, and you have the legal witch. The witch is someone who forms a covenant with the devil. But how do you prove that? But in the community, the witch is somebody really who is trying to harm you, your household, your domestic interests, your livestock, your crops, and very particularly, and this is really important for the history of witchcraft, your children.
Malcolm Gaskill: Children are so often at the center of witchcraft accusations. That the fear of parents towards their children is that most intense emotional experience. The parent who thinks, as I think many parents would, I would die to protect my children. [00:56:00] If you take that intensity into a situation where people really do believe that someone is trying to use black magic, in effect, to murder their children, you get the most vicious kind of defensive response.
Malcolm Gaskill: And that vicious defensive response often translates into witchcraft accusations. Because witchcraft, the suspicion of witchcraft is often based upon the belief that someone else is jealous and envious and therefore can't have what you have and therefore will just destroy it, and spoil it. You know that anxiety is very common.
Malcolm Gaskill: For these people, the belief in witchcraft was a real thing and that witchcraft was a real power.
Sarah Jack: And Scott Culpepper told us this about witches.
Scott Culpepper: I saw a special a while ago, I think it was produced by the History Channel, where they were talking about the legend of the witch, how it began to arise in the late medieval and early modern period. And they noted the fact that these are primarily [00:57:00] women who are being accused of witchcraft, and her tools are born of the domestic sphere. And talk about the ordinary household broom and the ordinary household cauldron that is used for cooking and how that becomes incorporated into the legends as the tools of the witch, because those are the tools that women would have used in culture.
Josh Hutchinson: You also have very real practicing witches who self identify by that term and have absolutely nothing to do with the evil witches of legend.
Sarah Jack: These individuals are not Halloween witches.
Josh Hutchinson: But of course you do have the pop culture witch, as well, a third type of witch and an ever-evolving creation of the collective imagination who's long been part of Halloween.
Sarah Jack: Even with pop culture, the witch takes many forms, sometimes portrayed in a positive light and other times cast as harmful.
Josh Hutchinson: Sometimes the witch is a strong woman who experiences liberation through her powers.
Sarah Jack: Other times the witch is a barely human creature, like the [00:58:00] hag from old stereotypes.
Josh Hutchinson: In recent decades, many sympathetic accounts have come out about witches and wizards.
Sarah Jack: But other portrayals rely on old images of evil witches.
Josh Hutchinson: In the past, it was believed that evil witches were more likely to be out and about doing things on Halloween because they could manipulate different forces, different occult forces, and summon spirits.
Sarah Jack: The ones that don't exist.
Josh Hutchinson: Evil witches that don't exist.
Sarah Jack: What would a discussion of Halloween be without the coverage of The Witch City, Salem?
Josh Hutchinson: The Witch City, which is now basically the Halloween City as well, we'd indeed be remiss not to mention Haunted Happenings and the well over a million people who now visit Salem, Massachusetts each October.
Sarah Jack: This festival was held first in 1982 on Halloween weekend and now features events throughout the month of October.
Josh Hutchinson: Last year, Rachel Christ-Doane of the Salem Witch Museum [00:59:00] told us that.
Rachel Christ-Doane: So I've been working here for about eight years now, and even in just that time, October has become steadily more and more difficult to manage in some ways as time has gone on. So for those who might be listening who don't know, October is by far the busiest time of year for Salem. The city sponsors an event called Haunted Happenings. It's a fall festival that goes on for the entire month of October. And it was actually envisioned as, it was created as a one weekend event in 1982. It was just supposed to be two days. And nobody could have foreseen how popular this festival would become.
Rachel Christ-Doane: There's all kinds of things happening throughout the city throughout that time. The different businesses do special events and things like that. There's tours, there's concerts. It's a really fun time to be here. But Salem is actually [01:00:00] quite a small city. We were never meant to be hosting a festival that's this popular.
Rachel Christ-Doane: So even in the past few years since the pandemic, last year, we had the busiest year on record. We had over a million people come in the month of October, which was just unbelievably crazy to a point where the city's infrastructure simply can't handle it. Restrooms were breaking all over the city, like the plumbing of Salem couldn't physically handle it. It's a testament to how much people love Halloween and the popularity of that particular fall holiday, which people now very strongly associate with Salem. So it's a blessing and a curse.
Rachel Christ-Doane: It's really fun to work here in October to a degree. You get to meet people from all over the world who are in full-on Halloween costumes for the entire month of October, who are just so happy and excited to be here, so that's really fun. But at the same time it's also [01:01:00] very demanding, and people tend to get a little frustrated trying to get in and out of Salem and are maybe not so nice to the service workers while they're here. So this is a friendly reminder to always be nice to service workers wherever you go, because it's people just trying their best to make your visit fun.
Rachel Christ-Doane: So it's good, and it's stressful. And it's also what allows Salem to thrive as a community, because the revenue that's generated in October is what keeps the city going throughout the winter. So again, it's a blessing and a curse all in one.
Sarah Jack: So right now would be a good time to plan next year's Salem trip.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. You definitely want to plan that at least a few months in advance, if not give it the whole year.
Sarah Jack: Salem has a permanent population of 45,000 and expects 1.2 million people in the 31 days of October in 2024.
Josh Hutchinson: That's an average of nearly 40,000 extra people every [01:02:00] single day, almost double the normal population.
Sarah Jack: So expect crowds and don't plan to drive in Salem, as very little parking is available.
Josh Hutchinson: Just get there, check into your hotel, relax, enjoy the festivities at a leisurely place, and please stay off the tombstones in Charter Street Cemetery. They're not props. They're for real people who have real kin today.
Sarah Jack: Everywhere, not just in Salem, Halloween continues to evolve, and many details will, no doubt, change this century.
Josh Hutchinson: But Halloween has survived hundreds of years, perhaps thousands if you count from the dawn of Samhain.
Sarah Jack: And Halloween will, no doubt, continue to flourish beyond our lifetimes.
Josh Hutchinson: The holiday has been spreading beyond North America, making a comeback in Britain, and taking off in other lands.
Sarah Jack: And in today's world, international cultural exchanges between Halloween, the Day [01:03:00] of the Dead, and other celebrations will continue to occur.
Josh Hutchinson: So, who knows what Halloween will look like in another 20 years, or 50, or 100?
Sarah Jack: Halloween has cemented its place in Canadian and American culture as a holiday when the usual rules are thrown out the window and mostly in pursuit of fun.
Josh Hutchinson: As a night when celebrants can let their hair down, its appeal runs deep.
Sarah Jack: And it provides a relatively safe environment for confronting society's deepest fears, allowing us to face death and our other anxieties.
Josh Hutchinson: And then the next morning, we get to rush to the stores to buy up all the leftover candy at half price to help us get through the more anxiety inducing days of the calendar.
Sarah Jack: And now, Mary Bingham is back with Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Witches and goblins and ghosts, oh my. When I was a kid I loved everything spooky in the month [01:04:00] of October. I would rest on my bed and read about witches flying on their broomsticks through the air with the bats flying with them and guiding them across the night sky. I read ghost stories that happened in New England and even visited the scariest cemetery near where I live in the area of Hollis, New Hampshire.
Mary Bingham: Those scary stories were strangely magical to me. Heck, one year I dressed up as a witch. And the two hour makeup and costume session was ghoul enough to cause me to be unrecognizable to both family and friends. Picture it. I look like Alice Cooper with a tall black hat and a black dress.
Mary Bingham: Today, I still love Halloween. I love the decorations both outside the homes and inside. And I'm reminded of my favorite season that soon follows. [01:05:00] Christmas. And as a descendant of three hanged in Salem, I know that Halloween has zero to do with the circumstances of those accused, convicted, and hanged. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Now Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts News. We've just discussed the different meanings of the word witch and how sometimes fantasy witches are used for fun and entertainment, but there is absolutely nothing fun or entertaining about real life witchcraft accusations.
Sarah Jack: Natural disasters happen, illness strikes, hard times come, humans make poor choices, act with malice, or harm others through negligence. These are all part of the human experience. They should prompt us to support one another and address real causes, not make witchcraft accusations. Let's work together to reject witchcraft accusations as explanations for misfortunes or human wrongdoing.
Sarah Jack: [01:06:00] Accept that destructive behavior is part of human nature, requiring understanding and intervention rather than demonization. Protect vulnerable community members from divisive suspicion. Promote understanding and accountability. Address problems through dialogue and proven solutions. Stand against the persecution of innocent people.
Sarah Jack: We've all experienced moments when imagination overtakes reality. Whether late at night when concerns grow larger than life, or when rumors start to reshape our views of situations and people. That's not weakness, it's human. We can recognize these moments and have the courage to admit when fear has clouded our judgment.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for joining us for this Halloween edition of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great Halloween and a beautiful time trick-or-treating.

October 29, 2024

Fearing the Devil: A Cultural History of America’s Satanic Panic with Scott Culpepper

Show Notes

Returning guest, Dr. Scott Culpepper, professor at Dordt University, joins us to examine the social phenomenon known as the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and early 1990s. Drawing from his extensive research, including his forthcoming scholarly work and his novel “The Demonologists’ Daughters,” Dr. Culpepper analyzes how this period of heightened social anxiety developed and influenced American society.

We explore the cultural context of this moral panic, examining its effects on institutions from childcare centers to entertainment, while drawing meaningful parallels to witch hunts. Our discussion includes analysis of media influence, law enforcement response, and the intersection with broader social changes of the era. Through careful historical examination, we consider how this period continues to inform our understanding of mass social fears and institutional responses to perceived threats. Are we in a Satanic Panic again?

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The Demonologists’ Daughters by K. Scott Culpepper

American Tabloid Media and the Satanic Panic, 1970-2000 by Sarah A. Hughes

The Exorcist Effect: Horror, Religion, and Demonic Belief by Joseph P. Laycock and Eric Harrelson

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Fearing the Devil_ A Cultural History of America’s Satanic Panic with Scott Culpepper Download

October 22, 2024

Secrets of the Basque Witch Hunt with Jan Machielsen

Explore one of Europe’s most notorious witch hunts – the Basque witch trials in France and Spain – with historian Jan Machielsen, author of the new release “The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History.” We uncover the complex factors behind the trials, including the role of sex-obsessed judge Pierre de Lancre. Machielsen shares the unique Basque Sabbath descriptions and the controversial use of child witnesses, revealing how approximately 100 victims fell prey to these trials. Learn how witch hunt fears persisted and transformed within communities, and draw striking parallels between historical witch hunts and modern witch persecutions. Join us for an eye-opening exploration of the Basque country’s rich history.

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Buy:The War on Witchcraft: Andrew Dickson White, George Lincoln Burr, and the Origins of Witchcraft Historiography by Jan Machielsen

The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Call on the World Health Organization to re-add sunscreen to the list of essential medicines

Zoom Event World Day Against Witch Hunts 10th August, 2024

IK Ero On Next Steps For Ending Witch Hunts TINAAWAHP

Sanguma: Everybody’s Business

Justice for Witches, Pardon Campaign

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Secrets of the Basque Witch Hunt with Jan Machielsen Download

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores the history and impact of witch hunts around the world. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we're uncovering the history of one of Europe's most notorious witch hunts, the Basque Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: We're joined by historian Jan Machielsen, author of the newly released book, The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History. Jan's research offers a fresh perspective on this dark chapter of history.
Sarah Jack: From sex obsessed judges to child witnesses, and from bizarre descriptions of witches' sabbaths to lingering societal fears, the episode uncovers the complex factors that fueled the Basque Witch Hunt.
Josh Hutchinson: Jan also draws some intriguing parallels between historical witch hunts and modern day conspiracy theories, reminding us that these events are not just relics of the past.
Sarah Jack: So get ready for a fascinating journey into the heart of the Basque country and the witch hunts that shaped its history.
Josh Hutchinson: Let's begin our conversation with Jan [00:01:00] Machielsen.
Sarah Jack: Welcome to Witch Hunt and congratulations on your new book, The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History. Can you tell our listeners about your background and expertise? And have you had any author events?
Jan Machielsen: Oh, so my name is Jan Machielsen. I'm a reader, which is sort of associate professor here in the UK. I'm a reader at Cardiff University. This is my, depending on how you count, my second or my third book. I've written widely about witchcraft in different guises. I have written a biography of a man called Martin Delrio, who some of your readers, listeners, might know. He is one of the very famous demonologists, but this is a very different book.
Jan Machielsen: This is a book about a witch hunt rather than a demonologist, although there is a demonologist involved in it, too. But I didn't really want to start a Jan Machielsen series of biographies of demonologists. So I was very keen on focusing it on the witch hunt rather than on the [00:02:00] demonologist in question, Pierre de Lancre.
Jan Machielsen: And yeah, the book came out, as we're speaking, the book came out last week. So at the moment I have one event here in Cardiff, next week on the 15th of October, but it's sold out. And when I say sold, it's actually a free event. So it's not that difficult. And then there is an event in London that people might want to get tickets for still, and that's on Thursday, from memory, the 23rd of October. And that's at Treadwell's. It's a bookshop in London, in Bloomsbury.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. And your book is more than a simple retelling of the story of the Basque Witch Hunt. It offers a lot more. What more can listeners expect to learn about when they pick up your book?
Jan Machielsen: Well, the story of the Basque witch hunt is really famous. It is one of Europe's most [00:03:00] notorious witch hunts. And actually the parallel here is maybe particularly with Salem in the United States. There is, just as Salem is like part of the origin story of the United States, the Basque Witch Hunt is very much part of the origin story of the Basque country as a territory, and the traditional story of the witch hunt that has been retold over the centuries is that this is a witch hunt there's been inflicted on the Basque country by evil outside judges.
Jan Machielsen: The Basque country is,as you may know, divided between France and Spain. On the French side, you have a judge called Pierre de Lancre who wrote a famous book about his experiences in the Basque Country, and he's maybe for that reason always held up as almost an archetypal villain.
Jan Machielsen: And then on the Spanish side you have the Inquisition who got involved. So it's quite easy to see why this is a witch hunt that's often been told as a story of outside [00:04:00] judges like going into a territory and then searching for evil. And that's a story that's like particular resonances in the Basque Country, because the Basque Country is quite an unusual space.
Jan Machielsen: Basque, the language, is Europe's only language isolate, which means that it has no connections whatsoever to any other European language. So the Basque have their very own distinct culture, and part of what seems to have happened also is that that culture ends up being demonized in some ways.
Jan Machielsen: And of course, this attack, or this witch hunt, is then seen as an attack not just on Basque people, Basque women in particular, of course, but also seen as an attack on Basque culture, as well. And what I sort of tried to do in this book is actually turn the story a bit on its head and show that actually a lot of the impulse for this witch hunt was actually homegrown starting in the Basque country and actually that Basques have a very [00:05:00] long-established history of witch hunting that goes back at least a century, a century and a half, possibly longer, and that this is just the most extreme version of a long-existing trend.
Jan Machielsen: That's such a familiar,the secret history part. Really am so happy to see that emphasized. We have seen when we're looking at Salem, there's the history behind what is popularly known. Is there anything else that you want to speak to about the secret history? The other part of the story, I think, in terms of the secret history is the question about the sources that we historians have and how we can use those sources to try and tell a story. Part of the reason why, particularly on the French side of this witch hunt, why this witch hunt was always seen as like Pierre de Lancre being this sole person responsible [00:06:00] for this witch hunt is because he wrote a book about it, and it was like widely believed that no other source survived. And this I think has a sort of like real methodological issue for us as historians, because it raises the question as to how can we see this witch hunt from the eyes of someone else than Pierre de Lancre? And maybe we'll get into this, but Pierre de Lancre is, he's not a nice person. And when I say that this book tries to show that the witch hunts emerged out of the Basque Country itself, it's in no way an attempt to excuse Pierre de Lancre. He was one of the most unpleasant people that I've ever had to work on. And I've worked on other demonologists. So I think that's saying a lot.
Jan Machielsen: What it does mean is trying to escape his perspective. And that's another component, I think, of writing this as a sort of secret history. And in there, I have found other documents that people weren't aware of. Some of them were really difficult documents to work [00:07:00] with. A lot of documents that I found were financial records where I literally just said, payment to this judge, payment to this interpreter, payment to this jailor, and then trying to reconstruct things from there.
Jan Machielsen: But there were also other witnesses out there who've left fragmentary accounts of what happened. And I think when you put all of those things together, you get a different story that shows that Pierre de Lancre is still a significant actor in this story, but he was called in toprosecute this witch hunt, and he was also related by marriage to a member of the local Basque nobility, so he was not actually an outsider, he was actually part of internal factionalism inside the Basque country.
Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about the scale and scope, magnitude of this witch hunt? How many victims are we talking about, and what do we need to know [00:08:00] about the victims?
Jan Machielsen: Well, this is a really great question, and it's also a question that doesn't have a very cut and dry answer. Pierre de Lancre, for the French side, Pierre de Lancre is not at all interested in telling usthose types of detail. He doesn't offer like a chronological account, being like, well, today I arrived in Bayonne, the capital of the Basque country, and now I'm going to go and hunt some witches and tomorrow I will execute four. No, all he, all Pierre de Lancre says is that he and his colleague, because there was another judge working alongside him, that they prosecuted between 60 and 80 witches.
Jan Machielsen: That number then gets a bit complex, because he talks about sorcière, so that's the female French for witch, and we know that one set of targets is also priests, who are by definition male, so there might be some men that one could add to that mix. But on the other hand, [00:09:00] we know that some of the people he prosecuted, he ended up banishing rather than executing. So you could take some people away from the equation. And then there is the final thing that is really important to my wider story, is that this witchcraft commission that was sent from Bordeaux In 1609 to deal with this witchcraft problem, and which operated for about four months, that's only one part of the story, like in my book, it's like the middle part.
Jan Machielsen: And what I try to show is that you're actually, there's already witch hunting happening before they call in these outside judges. And actually, after they leave, there's evidence of vigilante justice and people lynching suspected witches. My own estimate is that there is probably about a hundred victims, but that's based not on any clear mathematics. It's really just when you take together the bits and pieces of evidence that we have.
Jan Machielsen: I think that's still a significant number. [00:10:00] It's more than Salem, but it's also,it can also point to some German witch hunts where about a thousand people died. By that count, it's a noticeable number, but it's not exceptionally big by comparative European standards.
Sarah Jack: And was there a lot of confessing that happened with the accused?
Jan Machielsen: So with the testimony that we have,we have quite a few accusations by children that are an important part of this witch hunt.These children were in all likelihood not charged. I think there's one case whereone of these children said the wrong thing and then ended up being executed as a witch. Basically what happened is that they claimed to be taken to the Sabbath by witches, which made them valuable witnesses to use against witches, [00:11:00] and then one of them accidentally said, "Oh yes, but sometimes I went on my own." And that meant that she clearly was not actually taken against her will. And then rather tragically, when she was then on the scaffolds and realized, "Oh my God, I'm being killed too," she said, "No, no, no, I made it all up." And at that point, it was too late. So that makes it actually rather difficult to say how many of the actual accused witches confessed.
Jan Machielsen: Pierre de Lancre really valued the testimony of this particular girl, because he says, witches really rarely confess. But of course,she never thought of herself as a witch. She thought of herself as a witness. So most of the testimony that we have, particularly from Pierre de Lancre's account, comes from children and teenagers who act as accusers rather than the confessions of witches.
Jan Machielsen: But there are definitely some of them in the book. There is one particular moving example of, Pierre de Lancre does not name her, he describes her as a 40-year-old witch from Biarritz, Biarritz is a small town, and it's a seaside resort now on the Basque [00:12:00] coast. But back then it was a small seaside village and there was this, Pierre de Lancre describes this 40-year-old witch like crying and hitting her head against his desk, being so upset about what was happening. So there is some testimony there,but the bulk of the material that we have comes from accused, as well, than from witches.
Josh Hutchinson: And how were those who were convicted, how were they executed?
Jan Machielsen: So Pierre de Lancre doesn't bother to tell or describe the method of execution. I think we can take it for granted that they would be burned. It is possible, I would hope so, hopefully, likely, that they might have been strangled before their bodies were burned. That was common practice in French legal procedure at the time, for reasons that it makes it, makes the whole execution a bit more orderly and a bit more seemly. Sorry, that sounds really grim to say it in that way. [00:13:00] We have one example that he gives where a witch is executed by burning, but at that moment, a toad escapes from her body, and toads are also in the Basque country particularly associated with witchcraft, and he says that at that stage, the public gets so outraged that they start throwing stones at the dying person. And from that, I think it's, it is clear that there is death by burning.
Jan Machielsen: But that's about as close to him bothering to describe anything. As a source, he's really not interested in telling us anything in terms of chronology or detail. What he wants to convey is what he's discovered, which is the world of the Sabbath. And the book is really basically a extended description of the Witches' Sabbath, which he cobbled together from quotations from the witnesses that he had interviewed.
Sarah Jack: What was a Sabbat? And how did his [00:14:00] differ from other European Sabbats?
Jan Machielsen: Partly because of Pierre de Lancre, the Witches' Sabbath has always been associated with the Basque. In his, the second edition of his famous book, he even commissioned a Paris engraver to include an engraving of what the Witches' Sabbath looks like, which is quite an interesting thing to think about, because the Witches' Sabbath takes place at night, only witches are meant to be there, or witches and these witnesses then taken against their will, but in theory only witches are meant to be there and the devil, and it should not be accessible to normal, biased Christian eyes.
Jan Machielsen: And it's only really accessible to the judges, through the testimony of those who went there, and, and yet here, Pierre de Lancre even includes in engraving depicting what it is meant to have looked like. And Pierre de Lancre is really obsessed by the Sabbath, like when he finds out locations where the [00:15:00] Sabbath is meant to have been held, he goes there just to see if he can find any evidence. He claims at one point that he found from a marking that he can found where the pot of the witch's Sabbath, where the poisons and potions were cooked, that he couldn't find the pot where the Sabbath was held.So the Sabbath is really, really associated with the Basque Country, and that's also because the testimony that Pierre de Lancre then gathers up about the Sabbath is much more sensational than any other Sabbath testimony gathered from anywhere else.
Jan Machielsen: Stories about the Witches' Sabbath are often quite commonplace, but one story that you might know and that your listeners might know is that witches were meant to consume the bodies of dead babies at the Sabbath. But what the Basques do is that apparently they go into cemeteries and dig up the bodies of dead witches and that the devil gives them special [00:16:00] dentures, so that at the Sabbath they can eat the bodies of dead witches. So there's a lot of really bizarre graphic detail that's really highly unusual, and there's nothing really similar to it in what survives of sort of European Sabbath narratives.
Josh Hutchinson: That engraving is rather incredible of everything with all the different panels depicting everybody's different involvement. The children guarding the toads is probably my favorite piece of that.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah. Yeah. So I had a whole chapter in the book where, so basically I take every little fragment, every little vignette, and use it to decode the surviving testimony, then, and then by comparing the French material that Pierre de Lancre gathered up, we have the material that the Spanish inquisitors gathered up, you can actually see how much of this material comes from the Basque country. That's not to say that any of these stories were real, it's just is that [00:17:00] a lot of this is folkloric beliefs inside the Basque country.
Jan Machielsen: And that, to me, really explains why someone like Pierre de Lancre ended up writing this book, because he didn't arrive in the Basque Country with preconceived ideas that are that specific, like he presumably had read his Malleus Maleficarum before traveling to the Basque Country. Certainly, he knows books like the Malleus and Martin Delrio's book,the person I wrote on before I worked on Pierre de Lancre. He certainly knows those books, but then he arrives in the Basque Country, and then he has all these witnesses tell him these extraordinary stories that, you know, that as he himself said were never reported in any of the literature that he'd read.
Jan Machielsen: And that's part of his motivation to write his book is basically to show his readers look at what I found here, which is a very different, I think, reason for writing and what most authors or most historians have said about Pierre de Lancre, that he [00:18:00] wrote this book as a way of justifying his witch hunt. So that's not what he is interested in. It's more like this is amazing material, and everyone needs to know about this.
Josh Hutchinson: You wrote about a debate that was going on about whether the Sabbath was a real physical event or whether it was more an illusion or imaginary. Can you explain that?
Jan Machielsen: This is particularly the case in Spain, inside the Spanish Inquisition. And that the Spanish inquisitors really argued amongst themselves whether or not the Sabbath that they were exploring, whether or not that was a real thing or whether or not it was entirely imaginary, and when I say imaginary, I mean that what they were wondering whether or not had happened or whether or not the devil made them think it happened,and that if the devil made them think it happened, so for instance, they were sleeping, and in their sleep, the devil made them think that they traveled to the Sabbath, whether or not these people were then [00:19:00] still legally responsible. Are you still a witch if you dream that you went to the Sabbath, rather than if you actually flew to the Sabbath from on a goat, and these are the types of like really vexing legal questions that the Inquisition, in particular, got really obsessed by. And on the Spanish side, it really seems that those types of debates ultimately frustratedany further action against the witches.
Jan Machielsen: Pierre de Lancre seems not to be interested in this at all. For him, the Sabbathwas a real thing, andwitches deserve to die for going to the Sabbath, but the Spanish Inquisition is a very bureaucraticinstitution. It's also very legally minded. They were also saying, "we cannot prosecute these refugees from France, these people accused of witchcraft who fled into Spain, because they haven't committed any witchcraft here in Spain," which is quite a fun sort of thing to think [00:20:00] about, if you think about it, becauseif you made a pact with the devil, why does it matter that you made a pact with the devil in France as opposed to Spain? But that is the sort of like legal consideration that they really thought about in the Inquisition.
Sarah Jack: And is there anything we need to understand about the French legal framework with witch trials?
Jan Machielsen: That's a really good question, because it gets to the reason why Pierre de Lancre was sent in. The thing about the French legal system is that it's highly bureaucratic in a different way and that they have lots of appeals processes. And that if you are accused of witchcraft or of any other crime, then there would be a trial in Bayonne, but that trial could then be appealed to Bordeaux.
Jan Machielsen: In Bordeaux, you'd have maybe 15 judges looking over your case, and all of those judges needed paying. [00:21:00] And one of the things that's so interesting about the surviving material, the few surviving archival materials, is that a lot of them are invoices and a lot of them are like account books, listing the costs and it really brings out the high cost of French justice.
Jan Machielsen: So one of the reasons then why the Basque communities on the French side really wanted this outside commission was because it would make witch hunting a lot cheaper, because it meant that you didn't have to transport your witches from the Basque Country to Bordeaux, which was about a five days travel at the time,and you wouldn't have to house them and feed them there. You wouldn't have to pay all of those judges, you only needed to pay the two judges on your witchcraft commission. There were actually some strong financial motives for creating a witchcraft commission, because it meant that they could act, the judges could act in the Basque country, and they could act without any possibility of [00:22:00] appeal.So the main thing to notice about the French side is it's just like the high cost of justice in France.
Josh Hutchinson: The commission you mentioned before, they worked for four months. How were they able to work so much more quickly than regular justice?
Jan Machielsen: There are a few factors there, I think. The main thing is that, that there was no possibility of appeal. And this is something that the Bordeaux Parlement, which is the court that Pierre de Lancre himself was part of, that's the appeals court in Bordeaux, the Bordeaux Parlement really resisted registering the King Henry IV's edict setting up this witchcraft commission, because I think they were like, we want to get paid? And it can be maybe that, yeah, it can be that crude. So the fact that there was no longer any forms of appeal meant that they could act more quickly. The fact that they literally traveled from community to community. And I don't know [00:23:00] how accurate or complete my reconstruction has been, but like looking at these invoices and comparing it with dates that Pierre de Lancre casually mentioned, I've been able to create a map as to where they were at any given point in time, I think. And then you can get a sense as to they travel to a village, they would prosecute the witches there, and then they would execute them there, and then they would move on to the next village. And that obviously went a lot quicker than having to send all of those witches and the witnesses accusing them, sending all of them to Bordeaux. And therefore, it's quite plausible to me that they actually did end up executing 50, 60, maybe morepeople in that four months period.
Sarah Jack: You had mentioned that there was a history of witchcraft accusations in the Basque Country.
Jan Machielsen: How is that a perfect expression of the conflicts there?
Jan Machielsen: So a [00:24:00] big part of my argument about this witch hunt is that it's really significant that it took place in a border region. France and Spain in the early 17th century were the two major European powers, and they were almost always at war with one another. Spain at the time had a vast empire, and of course, from an American context, you will know about the Spanish Empire in the Americas. But in Europe, the kings of Spain were also the dukes of Milan, so northern Italy. They also were in charge of what was then called the Spanish Netherlands, which is now Belgium. There were a number of territories to the east of France that owed their allegiance to Spain. So as you can see that Spain almost encircled France at that time. So Spain and France did not reallyget along, and the Basque Country in particular, the [00:25:00] town of, city of Bayonne really is like the entry point between France and Spain, because France and Spain are separated by the Pyrenees.
Jan Machielsen: So this tiny territory of the Pays de Labourd is part of the Basque country that is in France. It's like the first French line of defense against Spain, which makes it really importantfor the French monarchy that people in the Pays de Labourd are all happy and harmonious and working together, just in case the Spanish invade.
Jan Machielsen: But what then also happens is that because of that, and because Paris is so far away, it also means that actually, it's very difficult for the kings of France to assert their authority in a territory like the Pays de Labourd, because they need to keep everyone happy. It's far away. How do youassert your authority?
Jan Machielsen: So there's actually, as a result, constant conflict between the communities and towns of the [00:26:00] Pays de Labourd, where they all argue about scarce resources and also between the nobles and the towns, where it's really clear that the towns are, by French standards, they have a lot of rights, they're incredibly independent, and the nobles are like, they look at what nobles in other parts of France are getting away with, and they're like, we want that too.
Jan Machielsen: So there's actually a lot of conflicts, and it's quite difficult to see how that conflict links to the witch hunt, except that it's clear that it did, in the sense that you can see how people from one faction accuse other people from the opposite faction of witchcraft. So again, there is maybe a parallel there with some of the stuff that's been written about Salem.
Jan Machielsen: But I think it's really important to say that we should never see witchcraft accusations as just a tool of, a cynical tool of accusing the other. I think it's also very natural to believe the worst of an enemy and that if you [00:27:00] are engaged in a long-running dispute that you would be willing to believe that your enemy would make a pact with the devil.
Jan Machielsen: But these conflicts are really gradually tearing this territory apart, and actually then sending a group of commissioners in from the outside, seems like the best way of solving this problem. But then, of course,one of the commissioners is Pierre de Lancre, and he is a rather sex-crazed maniac, who is fascinated by the devil. So he's rather the wrong person to sort out the many different conflicts that exist in this territory.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. On the subject you got into at the end, his sex obsession.
Josh Hutchinson: What's the deal with that? Why was he so utterly obsessed with the sex lives of especially the beautiful women and the teenagers?
Jan Machielsen: It's really rather striking [00:28:00] isn't it? When you read his descriptions, he constantly like talks about how bewitching the Basque women are. And he also really represents the Basque country as a feminine space. And to some extent, he's actually justified by doing that because the main economic foundation of the Basque Country is fishing and whaling. And so the menfolk are all off. Actually, some of them go as far away as like the Canadian Maritimes to go hunt for whales.So in Pierre de Lancre's imagination, that means that the women and old men and priests are just all that's left in the Basque country. And, as a result, the devil finds it very easy to infiltrate this space and seduce the women. So yeah, so the Basque Country and its women folk are clearly like an obsession of his. And he describes the Basque women and their dress, that included two contemporary engravings of Basque [00:29:00] women and how they dressed, and it's quite unusual. So if people buy the book, they can look at some images there. So it's clearly taken by how they looked.
Jan Machielsen: I think there is also maybean important factor here that he doesn't speak Basque. He uses interpreters, so he cannot actually get to what these people are saying except, through an interpreter, but he can scrutinize the bodies ofthe witnesses and witches, and they give him some sort of like direct access to this demonic story that the testimony in some sense doesn't.
Jan Machielsen: So I think there are a number of factors there that sort of come together. But yeah, as I write in the book, we know he has an illegitimate son, so it's he's already married to his wife. So there is definitely evidence that he is a bit of a sex pest. Let's put it that way, the very least.
Sarah Jack: [00:30:00] These demonology books and their authors, other men were reading these, other people, other authorities involved in convicting witches were reading these. And so I just think that impact must have really trickled through the communities, the world, the ages.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah,it's interesting cause there is actually a relatively, contemporary German translation of Pierre de Lancre's book, and it has the sort of the, I think quite revealing,title of The Wonderful Secrets of Witches, and that sort of I think really like testifies to what Pierre de Lancre is revealing here is like this exotic,often quite sexually explicit, like he also talks a great length about the size and shape of the devil's penis,like this really like a strange, remarkable worldthat he's uncovered.
Jan Machielsen: But it's also like fair to say that the Tableau, which, so that's the main text that Pierre de Lancre writes, it goes only through two editions. So it's not the Malleus [00:31:00] Maleficarum, where it's not Martin Delrio's Disquisitiones, like it's, as far as early modern demonological texts goes, it's actually not really quite a bestseller. So it's quite, and I don't quite, can't quite explain why it wasn't more successful at the time.
Jan Machielsen: But at the same time, Pierre de Lancre keeps on writing about witches. So after his Tableau, he writes two more books about witches, the last, apparently for his own personal entertainment, and that's literally what the contract with the publisher says, and it's only, it was only printed in 40 copies, and therefore only three or four copies still survive to this day, but if you put all the pages of those books together, you get to about 1700 pages about witches and demons and other sort of related supernatural things. And that does make him, I would argue, I haven't found anyone [00:32:00] else, maybe in response to this interview, someone will come up with a counter example. But I think he may very well be the person who has filled the most pages on demonology in the entire early modern period, because 1700 pages is a lot.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, when books of that time were generally pretty short, that, these were some real opuses.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah, very much Yeah.

Jan Machielsen: The only other thing I would bring up is that I also want to spend some time about the way this witch hunt ends, because I think often people think that witch hunting ends once the witch hunter packs up his bag and leaves. And that's like the traditional story that has been told about the witch hunt in the Basque Country. It's like Pierre de Lancre and his colleague, their four months are over, they return to Bordeaux, and then that's [00:33:00] that, basically. Butthe evidence that survived shows that there is substantial panic about witches persisting in the Basque Countryacross the 1610s, almost like a full decade after the judges leave, there's still people being panicked about witches, people going to, visiting missionaries and confess that they were witches.There's lots of stuff still happening. So my book doesn't end in 1609, my book ends in 1619, and it ends there because it's at that moment where I think that the witch hunt really ends, because one thing that happens with the border is that there is another group of refugees, but this time fleeing from Spain into France rather than witches fleeing from France into Spain. And these refugees are religious refugees. They are new Christians, so these are people whose ancestors have been forced to [00:34:00] convert from Judaism and Islam, but were suspected by the Inquisition of having reverted to the faith of their ancestors. And they flee across the border and obviously the Basque country, because it's just across the border, is a place where a lot of them settle. And it seems like a lot of these fears about witches are displaced. They're moved from witches to these new, these refugees.
Jan Machielsen: And in 1619, one of these refugees, a Portuguese woman called Caterina Fernandez, ends up being lynched by a mob in the small town of Saint-Jean-de-Luz, and the way that event is described, to me, sounds very similar to the fears that surround witches a decade earlier.We can have a really, I think, interesting discussion as well, as to like, how do witch hunts end? Because I don't think they end simply because a judge leaves. Because they cause so much [00:35:00] panic in the territory and that lingered. And I think those fears were transferred onto another group of victims who were then ultimately cast out and expelled from the Basque country.
Sarah Jack: I'm really glad that you wanted to speak about that. It's, your book really is going to expand people's understanding of humans and witchcraft fears put on innocent people. But I think the ending thing, they haven't ended in our world, and they don't just have that final chapter. So we do need to get there, but it, when you. Thank you for sharing that, because it's an example of how communities have that panic. And it doesn't just, it's not just over because the judge left, as you said, and how that fear can be transferred.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah, as [00:36:00] I write in my epilogue, I didn't want to write a full conclusion, but I wrote a short epilogue. But as I write there, I think witchcraft is still with us, right? I think previous historians even just five or ten years ago, people would, those historians would all be writing about witchcraft as a thing that's like in the past. And yet, I think these days, I think we're so much more aware about how there are different ways in which people think about witches, like how witchcraft was fuelled by fears about the other that transcends like just the category of witch and how conspiracy theories are not something that is just, just belong to the past. They are very much present in the present as well. And we should never see these stories as I think the witch hunt has often been portrayed as a story of like reason triumphing over superstition. Because that's not how these witch hunts ended.
Jan Machielsen: There is, at least the Basque Witch Hunt did not [00:37:00] end because people woke up and looked around and thought to themselves like, what are we doing? It's like it seems to have ended in a form of transference of fears of one group of outsiders to another group of outsiders. And it seems to have ended because of an act of like popular violence rather than like an act of radical enlightenment of whatever shape. And I think that's probably true for the witch huntwrit large in the early modern period. I don't think witchcraft beliefs were ever defeated by rational argument.
Josh Hutchinson: Right, that whole enlightenment ended the witch trials narrative has prevailed for a long time, and I'm finding myself growing out of that, that realizing that witch trials just went underground and became these extrajudicial actions, and that has continued around the [00:38:00] world.
Jan Machielsen: Yes, a colleague of mine here in the UK, Bill Pooley, who's at the University of Bristol, I don't know if you've had a chance to interview him yet, but he works on witchcraft beliefs in 19th century France, and there you can see how it's, it's no longer than like the witches who appear in front of a judge. It is people who have killed witches who appear in front of judges. And then in many instances, actually, it's like they are let go or they're released, or there's a jury who refuses to convict.The story of like how the witch hunt ends is a story that is continuing in the present day, I think, and it's not a story that has a very neat and uplifting ending either.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Certainly not yet.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah. I think that we're all working towards that ending though in one way or another. I think that's one of the really important ways that your podcast contributes to those [00:39:00] discussions.
Sarah Jack: Thank you. I. It is uplifting to see that from academics and from people who are literally advocating and rescuing folks, there's space for this conversation now, and there's lots of conversation to have. Looking at the history gives us an opportunity to ask important questions about humanity, ones that are, questions that are relevant today that were relevant then too so thanks for. Your book is so enjoyable to read. it really brought questions to mind of other witch hunt histories that I read and study on. So I just, it's a really great tool, but it tells a story that people need to hear about the Basque Country and its people as well. Thank you.
Jan Machielsen: Well, thank you so much again for having me. It's been a real pleasure to speak to the two of you and it's also been an honor to [00:40:00] be invited onto this podcast, because I know you've interviewed quite a number of very famous people already. So it's, it's honor, it's an honor to join that particular list as well.
Jan Machielsen: So
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. And, when is your book available and how can people get their hands on it?
Jan Machielsen: It's on sale now. I haven't checked the price in dollars, but I think in, at least in pounds and euros, it's quite reasonably priced. I'm hoping that it would reach a wider audience and that people who are interested in finding out more about the Basque Witch Hunts and try and, as the two of you did, try and place that into a wider history,that they'll be interested in in buying it. Yeah, I'm not sure it will hit every bookstore in, in the world, but it's certainly accessible on all the major online retailers at a, I think, a quite affordable price.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Jan. Now Mary Bingham returns with an all new Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Here is a brief [00:41:00] regarding three women over a span of 82 years, all accused of witchcraft, who boldly defended themselves, standing in the truth and though they knew that death was their outcome.
Mary Bingham: María de Echachute, from Navarre, northern Spain, repeatedly denied that she was a witch, though making a false confession would have most likely resulted in a pardon for her. Maria paid with her life in 1610.
Mary Bingham: Ann Hibbins, a well-educated woman who was tried twice and boldly declared her innocence. Ann was hanged at Boston Neck in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1656.
Mary Bingham: Mary Esty, a pillar in her Topsfield, Massachusetts community, was arrested, released, and then yet arrested again in 1692. She never wavered while being badgered by the magistrates, even authoring two petitions, [00:42:00] one advising the magistrates how to proceed with the trials after her death.
Mary Bingham: The strength of character of these three women is inspiring beyond anything that I could ever imagine. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And now Sarah has this week's edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: On our End Witch Hunts news segment today, we're highlighting a crucial human rights issue affecting persons with albinism. The Africa Albinism Network is campaigning to have sunscreen added to the World Health Organization's essential medicines list. This campaign is driven by compelling evidence from the 2023 report by Maluka Ann Middy Drummond, the UN independent expert on the enjoyment of human rights by persons with albinism.
Sarah Jack: Her findings underscore a critical truth. For people with albinism, sunscreen isn't merely a cosmetic luxury, it's a vital, life-saving medical [00:43:00] necessity that can significantly extend and enhance their quality of life. We strongly support the rights and protection of persons with albinism. Ending their persecution and ensuring their safety is fundamental to upholding human dignity and rights. Making sunscreen more accessible by including it on the world Health Organization's essential Medicines List would significantly improve affordability and access for those who need it most. Do you want to learn about this issue or get directly involved in supporting persons with albinism? Here's an excellent opportunity. On Thursday, October 24th, at 2 p. m. GMT time, there's an important webinar you should know about. Sunscreen as Essential Medicine, a Climate Justice Webinar. It's being hosted by CBM Global Disability Inclusion, the Africa Albinism Network, the Fund for Global Human Rights, and Climate Action Network Europe. This virtual event will dive into the crucial campaign to add sunscreen to WHO's essential medicines [00:44:00] list for persons with albinism, framing it as both a human rights and climate justice issue. You can learn how you can actively support this vital campaign. It's a chance to engage in a critical conversation on human rights and climate justice, particularly for one of the most vulnerable populations affected by climate change.
Sarah Jack: We've included the registration link in our show notes. Remember, your participation can make a real difference in this important cause. Recently, Josh and I had the privilege of meeting and engaging with Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond at the Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference in Lancaster. During our interactions, we gained valuable insightsinto the critical importance of ensuring the enjoyment of human rights by persons with albinism. Muluka-Anne's expertise and passion for this cause left a lasting impression on us. Following the conference, she shared a powerful statement that directly relates to our End Witch Hunts mission.
Sarah Jack: She said, quote, "This week, I was at Lancaster University attending a conference on the UN resolution on the elimination of [00:45:00] harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks. Around the world, people continue to lose their lives and livelihoods due to witchcraft accusations, or in the case of persons with albinism, for example, witchcraft-related practices. Ultimately, whether you believe in witchcraft or not, it cannot be denied that people are dying because of it.And we cannot continue to relegate the topic to the aisles of history and fiction while the rights of so many are violated," end quote.
Sarah Jack: Our conversation with Muluka-Anne reinforced our understanding that protecting the rights of persons with albinism is not just a matter of policy but a fundamental aspect of human dignity. It's clear that addressing harmful practices and ensuring full human rights for persons with albinism are interconnected and crucial goals.
Sarah Jack: How will you use your unique skills, authority, agency, and platform to advocate for persons with albinism? Your collaboration is needed now.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah. [00:46:00]
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us every week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

October 15, 2024

Witch Hunt Podcast Goes to England to Speak about Ending Witch Hunts

Join Sarah and Josh as they talk about their recent experiences at two dynamic UK conferences focused on witchcraft and human rights. In this fun and reflective episode, our hosts share the insights gained from the York CREMS Magic and Witchcraft Conference 2024 and the Lancaster “Witchcraft and Human Rights: Past, Present, Future” conference, which centered on the implementation of United Nations Resolution 47/8. Learn about the presentations Sarah and Josh delivered for their nonprofit, End Witch Hunts, including talks on the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, the End Spiritual and Ritual Abuse (SARA) data collection project, and the World Without Witch Hunts Project. Our hosts share about the fascinating research and presentations of the other experts in the field, which offered experienced perspectives on both historical and contemporary issues surrounding witchcraft accusations. Get up to speed on the current status of implementing Resolution 47/8, which addresses human rights violations related to witchcraft accusations and ritual attacks. This episode showcases how these conferences bring together a diverse group of historians, human rights advocates, legal experts, and social scientists in a collaborative effort to combat ongoing witchcraft-related human rights abuses. Whether you’re a history enthusiast, a human rights advocate, or simply curious about this often-overlooked global issue, this first hand report promises to broaden your understanding of the intersection between history, human rights, and modern efforts to end witch hunts worldwide.

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Links

⁠Buy America Bewitched Book by Owen Davies⁠

⁠Wolfgang Behringer, Witches and Witch Hunts: A Global History⁠

⁠United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks ⁠

⁠Papua New Guinea Sorcery and Witchcraft Accusation-Related Violence National Action Plan⁠

⁠Pan African Parliament Guidelines for Addressing Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks⁠

⁠Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization⁠

⁠Donate to Our UK Conference Trip to speak and learn about ending witch hunts⁠

⁠Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria⁠

⁠The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠Zoom Event World Day Against Witch Hunts 10th August, 2024.⁠

⁠International Alliance to End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠IK Ero On Next Steps For Ending Witch Hunts TINAAWAHP⁠

⁠Sanguma: Everybody’s Business⁠

⁠Justice for Witches, Pardon Campaign⁠

⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project⁠

⁠Witch Hunt Website

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast where for the last two years, we've been talking to you about witch trial history and contemporary witch hunts, known as harmful practices. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. In fact, this week is our second anniversary as a podcast. And
Sarah Jack: this is the episode where we're going to talk about the conferences we were able to attend in England in September.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. We've come a long way since our first episode about Connecticut witch trial history. Now we've become advocates in this sphere working with others to raise awareness and bring an end to harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft, where basically people accuse someone of bewitching them or their family or their possessions and then attack them.
Josh Hutchinson: On this trip, we were able to meet for the first time, at least [00:01:00] 11 of our incredible guests who we have featured on previous episodes. We got to talk to them in person and it was amazing.
Josh Hutchinson: It really was. There's something very different about meeting somebody in person versus just talking to them over Zoom and emails.
Sarah Jack: For those of you who podcast or guest, there is an affinity in the podcasting community. You feel like friends when you meet someone who has podcasting experience, or it's their hobby or their profession. And meeting our guests was much like that.
Josh Hutchinson: Was amazing. It was so great to meet people from all around the world, many different nations on most of the continents. And just being in one place with all these brilliant minds, these great thinkers was quite a treat.
Sarah Jack: Let's tell our listeners about how we met our [00:02:00] guests.
Josh Hutchinson: Let's do that. We started with a conference at the University of York, the Magic and Witchcraft Conference sponsored by the Center for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies. And it was quite brilliant. The theme was healing and health from antiquity to 1850. Right from the start of our getting into York, we had such a great experience in that city.
Sarah Jack: We came in on a train. We hopped into a taxi and our accommodations were contemporary, but when you walk out the door and you hit the cobblestone, it was like walking back in time on our way to the university.
Josh Hutchinson: We got to pass through the fabulous road called the Shambles, which has the Shambles Market.
Josh Hutchinson: Used to be the road where they laid out all the meats, [00:03:00] the butchers laid out all their finest cuts of meat, and today it's still a busy shopping and tourist hub and an active outdoor market.
Josh Hutchinson: Well, we passed through the shambles, which is a medieval street. So the buildings are authentic going back centuries. It's quite different coming from the United States, especially the Western United States, where our oldest buildings that we have we are from,the mid 20th century in most of our towns, to go to a place that has 2000 years of history that York has since Roman times. It was quite remarkable. One of the big attractions there is York Minster, which is a very large cathedral and very impressive looking Gothic structure with all of those pointy [00:04:00] things and the gargoyles and the whole bit.
Sarah Jack:
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And we also were able to pass through the old city gates in the ancient city wall that again, dates back, the original walls go back to Roman times, but were improved upon many times over the centuries. So what's there today is mostly Norman, I believe, and post Norman, but it's still very ancient, hundreds of years old. Some of the positions there, the actual structures, were first in place in Roman times back in the early first millennium.
Sarah Jack: Passing all of these very special landmarks brought us to the University of York where our conference was.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We went to lovely King's Manor, just got to see this amazing, it has [00:05:00] this beautiful ornate crest above the door that, we'll have to put up a picture here so you can see what I'm talking about.
Josh Hutchinson: But yeah, it's quite,it makes it seem like you're going into the King's Manor. It does feel that way.
Sarah Jack: And you'll see the excitement on our face in this selfie that we took.
Sarah Jack: It was a very lovely experience there.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was so fun walking up this very short staircase to a second floor and walking into a classroom, knowing that our friends were going to be in there prepping for their own presentations. It was great. We stood around and greeted each other and drank some coffee and the conference started.
Josh Hutchinson: We got to meet in person, Debora Moretti, Tabitha Stanmore, Javier Garcia Oliva, and Helen Hall. You'll recognize those four as previous [00:06:00] guests that have been on this podcast. And we were in a room with all of them and got to listen to their talks and they got to listen to us and it was just a remarkable experience.
Josh Hutchinson: And we also met future guests.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, it was a great conference. There was an online audience as well as in person attendees, and it was a great day, it flew by so quickly.
Josh Hutchinson: It was so fun learning about healing and healers, different magical practices and beliefs about healing over time, especially,we learned, literally, like it says, from antiquity to 1850, covered the whole time period in between, and was amazing. And then we got to talk.
Sarah Jack: In our presentation at this first conference, we talked about the [00:07:00] beginnings of End Witch Hunts, the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and our podcast.
Josh Hutchinson: We also got to talk about our other projects going on in Massachusetts and Connecticut and the wonderful project happening in the state of Maryland.
Josh Hutchinson: So we got to talk about what's going on in America as far as remembering past victims from historical trials.
Sarah Jack: And we got to speak about our involvement, and especially Mary Bingham's involvement, in the BOLD project, Building Opportunities for Lives and Dignities, which is running in the Jharkhand state in India, which is bringing a holistic solution to ending harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and also supporting the survivors of [00:08:00] these accusations.
Sarah Jack: And we're looking forward to future episodes where we talk about that project much more.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
Josh Hutchinson: One of the things that I enjoyed about this conference, listening to the academic research, and then when we had our opportunity to present, having things come to mind that I'd heard that day in somebody's paper that matches what's happening right now in communities in different countries. It just really was like this. When we're in an episode and we hearin our conversation, oh, this really matches something we learned in a previous episode. But then when you like go to a conference and the subject matter is just enveloping everything that's still happening. And you just see the continuous, there's it wasn't hard to point [00:09:00] out, well, let me tell you, these things are still happening. It was unfortunately, so easy because it, there were all these examples and, just, we're listening to it. So we were just really able to discuss how, what they are researching and how important it is to understanding even the modern framework of some hunts that are still happening. Yeah. Learning about traditional healers of the past and cunning folk, those sorts of professions that occurred in the medieval period, the early modern period, and learning that, you're realizing that those professions are still around today and still involved in witchcraft accusations as they had been previously, both occasionally being accused, but [00:10:00] not so often themselves, but being used in counter magic and for the detection of witches.
Sarah Jack: When we started this podcast two years ago, there were conversations happening on university campuses, in historical society meetings, at local libraries, and in books and blogs. But over the last two years, this podcast has really made a space for the conversations and it just, I really felt that. The podcast has helped to bring together this network of academics and advocates who talk in this space and being at a conference, which was another forum where networking is able to happen was very,well, it's insightful getting chunks [00:11:00] of everybody's mind.
Sarah Jack: In our talk, in addition to talking about healing and medicinal associations with witchcraft accusations in the contemporary world, we also talked about methods to potentially eliminate those harmful practices from happening in the first place.
Josh Hutchinson: And so what we talked about was the need for a holistic approach with a focus on the conditions that allow witch hunts to occur so that you can cut them off at the source, instead of treating the symptoms of the problem, treat the root cause, pull it out by those roots, and toss it.
Sarah Jack: And that includes addressing economic conditions and creating social safety nets for communities. Often, accusations [00:12:00] are happening to families that are experiencing life-changing misfortune that is unexplainable, and so when you address the infrastructure.
Josh Hutchinson: Addressing those underlying economic conditions that lead to the great poverty, which is a big factor in witch hunting. It's one of the sort of prerequisites. You need some bad things basically to be happening in somebody's life in order for them to kind of resort to making a witchcraft accusation and you need them to have no recourse. When people don't have any recourse, there's no insurance system for crop failures, there's no safety net to catch them if the bottom falls out from them economically, it's very easy for that person to want to blame something [00:13:00] or at least seek a cause. Why did this misfortune happen to me? What can I do about it?
Josh Hutchinson: Where when you have these safety nets and insurance mechanisms, then people are compensated when misfortune happens, and they're not down to that last straw. So these things need to be a big part of it. And just addressing worldwide economic conditions is of course a concern anyways.
Sarah Jack: The things you just heard Josh touching on, those probably sound familiar to you if you've been listening to historical witch trial stories, but also we're finding the same influences now.
Josh Hutchinson: If you listen to anything we've done about Salem or Connecticut or England, Ireland, the same underlying conditions were [00:14:00] part of the problem. Economic conditions, as we know from contemporary life, are one of the key stressors in anybody's life. Andso economic conditions, the fear of losing everything, the actually having that happen to you to where you lose everything and have no support.
Josh Hutchinson: Another area that needs to be addressed is climate change. That is actually intensifying both droughts and storms that can kill livestock and crops, and in turn, the people who rely upon those livestock and crops. And that needs to be addressed, and the economics, and you've got to tackle the refugee crisis as well.
Josh Hutchinson: I read recently, there's some millions of people in [00:15:00] transit right now in refugee status, and you do havea lot of people crammed into these refugee camps and you don't know each other, bad things are happening to people, and it just creates another climate for witchcraft accusations.
Sarah Jack: Another area of importance is to raise awareness about the consequences of witchcraft accusations and about laws that may be on the books. In several nations, there are laws against making witchcraft accusations, but those laws aren't widely enforced or known about. And one of the very important things is that change needs to come from communities locally and through community members raising awareness with each [00:16:00] other, having these difficult conversations that need to be had about witchcraft beliefs, and are there other explanations for what happens when bad things happen?
Sarah Jack: And for the communities where there is legislation in place to protect victims, educating them on what their course of action can be or what their rights would be for seeking justice and protection.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, so it's very important that advocates work with the local community and with local politicians and religious leaders andthe police force and everyone.
Sarah Jack: Number of accusations arise because of insufficient healthcare treatment and insufficient understanding of healthcare. So this is something that [00:17:00] we talked about at this health and healing conference was the need to provide healthcare in underserved areas. So people don't rely on unlicensed diviners who will then identify witches. And well, traditional healers provide a very valuable service in the communities that they serve. They're often the only people with any sort of a medical background. But they need to be trained on certain fundamental disease diagnoses to understand basic conditions and know when to refer somebody to another doctor. Instead of at the end, you get to the point of, well, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. So maybe [00:18:00] it's witchcraft. Instead of that, you want to get to, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. Here's another doctor that you can go to, or that we can call into our community. Maybe they come around periodically. But there just, there needs to be that health care. There needs to be that option for the second opinion. And people need to know about basic conditions and not be afraid of them.
Sarah Jack: That also would have helped during the Salem Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: Would have definitely helped Dr. Griggs or whichever physician it actually was who diagnosed Betty Parris and Abigail Williams as under an evil hand.
Sarah Jack: There's always connections. There's always connections.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, so many of these communities, while we're on this,remote communities, especially rural communities. And we see this here in America. We see this everywhere. [00:19:00] Rural communities, just the distances between where people are and where healthcare is, are often put people at an extreme disadvantage.
Josh Hutchinson: And you can't timely get to see a doctor with the knowledge of the condition that you have. So there just needs to be better access to these remote communities. There needs to be more facilities nearby, ambulance services. police services need improvement in a lot of remote areas, because again, the local constabulary might be understaffed, or it might be a great distance that people can't travel to report an attack.
Josh Hutchinson: And then after the attacks or accusations happen, there needs to be support. There needs to be healing, therapy, counseling, everything that a [00:20:00] person who survives such an ordeal and is so traumatized by it, both physically and emotionally, everything that they need to be supported later in their lives, instead of just sending them off to witch camp, supposedly, so called witch camps or other refuge centers,allow these individuals to reestablish some kind of life in their new community. Understandably, in many situations, they can't go back to their old community, at least not very quickly, because the danger is still there that they're going to be reaccused and reattacked. But all the things that we take for granted in life, these individuals are being denied because of their being run out of their towns. They're being forced onto the road. They're [00:21:00] being forced to be jobless, homeless.So they need support so they can get back to sustaining themselves and finding value in themselves.
Sarah Jack: That was all conference number one, and we were getting ready to go to a two day conference in Lancaster that was all about the current state of this effort.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, the Lancaster conference began a week after the York conference and was hosted by Lancaster University and the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices, and it was an honor to be invited to be a part of it.
Sarah Jack: That those first moments walking up to the building, there's a gathering [00:22:00] of attendees. Some of us recognize each other or are familiar with some of the work. There was so much excitement to be standing there together and know we're going to walk in and tackle the situation together.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, this conference, the theme was about implementing UN Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8, which was passed in 2021. And finding ways to come together and compare notes and exchange ideas on how to eliminate these harmful practices that we've been talking about.
Sarah Jack: This was the type of conference where you had to, you wanted to get to every speaker. You wanted to find out what is this research or what is this experience or what is this [00:23:00] program that is getting rolled out? It was a robust gathering of information and people.
Josh Hutchinson: It was so robust. There were presentations occurring in two rooms simultaneously. So it was impossible to be able to take in everything individually, but Sarah and I being two of us were able to split up and each of us attend every event and every presentation that happened. And there were just so many great talks. It's impossible to cover them all in this episode, but we met people from Australia, Papua New Guinea, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Nigeria, India, so many places around the world.
Sarah Jack: England, of
Josh Hutchinson: course. [00:24:00] England was well represented.
Josh Hutchinson: During the conference, we were able to meet with our colleague and friend, Dr. Leo Igwe, who've you've heard on this podcast a couple of times talking about his experiences working against witch-hunting in Africa. And he received the
Josh Hutchinson: inaugural award from the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. He was recognized, quote, "for his indefatigable work in advocating on behalf of alleged witches at both the global and the regional level, and in so doing, advancing the implementation of the Human Rights Council resolution on the elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks." End quote. Definitely a well-deserved award.
Sarah Jack: Yes, he was so humbled by [00:25:00] it.
Sarah Jack: So the honor was a complete surprise, and he just wants to save lives, and he gets up every day to do that. The conversations he has with colleagues or community leaders or accusers or victims, it's all to save lives and to get others to spring to action, as well. And that's why he got the award, because that is what he does.
Josh Hutchinson: Nonstop, indefatigably, as the award says, he's dedicated to this cause and just saving lives and also helping people once they've been affected by these accusations. He works with a lot of the survivors, helping them get restarted. What Leo does requires a certain amount of courage, as well. [00:26:00] He's putting himself in some vulnerable positions when he's interfacing with an angry mob, for example, or even the police who don't understand what his organization, Advocacy for Alleged Witches, is really about and think, Oh, these are witches meeting and we need to break this up.
Josh Hutchinson: So Leo's very brave. He's very dedicated, committed, very passionate about what he does and everybody loves him.
Sarah Jack: So we attended great talks in the morning, and then it was our turn to come up and give a presentation on spiritual and ritual abuse of how it affects children in the United States of America.
Sarah Jack: That's our newest project. This is a data collection project, so right now, [00:27:00] the project is collecting specific cases of spiritual and ritual abuse that have occurred in the United States.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we talked about the project, we talked about our objectives and the challenges that we face and went over our methodology, which right now where the project is, we're searching the internet for these cases. And then once we identify a case of spiritual and ritual abuse, particularly one that's related to an accusation of witchcraft or spirit possession, we look into those more deeply, find out the jurisdiction handling the case and see what other records we can dig up on it.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. Everything that we are collecting is tied to criminal [00:28:00] charges or a criminal death, something that is heading to court.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, our main goal with the project is to use this data to raise awareness that there is a problem out there, that these aren't one off, isolated cases, there are beliefs that are behind, behind these cases that link them together. So we're looking just to collect the data and we talked about a few of the cases at the conference.
Sarah Jack: We talk about what spiritual abuse is on our World Day Against Witch Hunt episode.
Josh Hutchinson: We do, and we talk about it in our episode with Jordan Alexander. So go back and yeah, watch that one if you haven't already. That's a great episode.
Sarah Jack: And you've also [00:29:00] heard several minutes with Mary that have told stories of some of these victims.
Josh Hutchinson: This talk at Lancaster focused on children, but our research that we're doing is not limited to any age group or any other group of people, either as perpetrators or as the victims. We're not narrowing this down yet, we're just trying to collect as much data as possible so that we can present it to the media, to government agencies, to say, hey, let's get something going to try and fix this.
Josh Hutchinson: And then after lunch, we had another talk, we talked about mostly the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, but exoneration in general, as an opportunity to raise awareness of the ongoing problem with harmful practices [00:30:00] related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And then what was really impactful to me when we're at a conference like this, gathered with advocates in the regions that are seeing witch hunting happening, we don't have to describe or explain in any way the significance of exonerating the historically accused witches. They tell us how significant it is.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. It was wonderful to be there with Leo Igwe in the room when we were giving this presentation, and we were able to tell the story of how he came to Connecticut and spoke at the state capitol to legislators andthe next week ourexoneration legislation passed the Senate 33 to one, [00:31:00] a week after Leo gave that important talk and spoke with Dr. Senator Saud Anwar and Representative Jane Garibay about how meaningful this is in other parts of the world.
Sarah Jack: But the parts of the resolution that are historical, the naming of every known accused witch in Connecticut is in the legislation and an apology from the state.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, those are both the first of their kind, the first bill to name those who were indicted but not convicted, and the first of its kind in America to apologize for a witch trial. So it's very historic. We also got to talk about plans for a Connecticut memorial. And, uh, Day of Remembrance and [00:32:00] exonerations in other states.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. What's so great about this project is it's not just Josh and I and Mary, it's many of us. Our very first episode of this podcast, our guests were Beth Caruso and Tony Griego. They are longtime advocates for the Connecticut Witch Trials. We did join up with them, but it took many volunteers, local and nationally and internationally, as we mentioned, Leo getting to talk at the Capitol, but this remembrance, these remembrance efforts, there's still a large group of people coming together to work on this. So it's a great project and you are welcome to join us.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, please do. Absolutely.Dozens and dozens of people were involved in the Connecticut effort and are involved in ongoing remembrance efforts. It was also [00:33:00] during this panel that we were a part of, this series of three presentations. we were able to meet,previous guest Alice Markham-Cantor, who presented about her ancestor, Martha Carrier, who was convicted in the Salem witch trials. And we also met Charlotte Meredith of the Justice for Witches campaign in the UK.
Sarah Jack: The four of us really enjoyed speaking about pardons and exoneration and the experiences that we have in our ancestry.
Josh Hutchinson: And also that first day of the conference, there was a keynote by Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond, who is the current independent expert on the rights of persons with albinism for the United Nations, and she gave a wonderful talk about how to go forward, how to implement the resolution 47/8.
Josh Hutchinson: And you may be [00:34:00] wondering why the independent expert on the rights of persons with albinism was speaking at a witchcraft and human rights conference. And it's because many people around the world believe that persons with albinism have special magical properties in their bodies and collect body parts from persons with albinism for use in magical potions to bring luck or better health or prosperity, whatever the case may be, they're used in these magical concoctions.
Sarah Jack: Which means children with albinism and others are targets.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, their body parts are typically harvested while they're alive to increase the potency.
Josh Hutchinson: These are attacks that people are surviving, but not always. So the parts are taken while they're alive, and [00:35:00] many don't survive.
Josh Hutchinson: At the conference, there was talk about how many children with albinism are sent to boarding schools specifically for persons with albinism, so that they're safer than if they have to walk to a local school, where their predictable route to that school makes them especially vulnerable to an ambush style attack, and people taking them.
Sarah Jack: And I, I learned at the conference that it's believed at times that persons with albinism don't have a regular death, that they just disappear. And because of that belief, when some are taken and disappear, and have disappeared, there isn't an investigation looking for that person because it's accepted that they just vanished.
Josh Hutchinson: And persons with albinism are also believed to [00:36:00] variously bring you bad luck or good luck, depending on the nature of your interaction with them and where exactly you are with the person. Local belief is exactly shaking a hand with a person with albinism might be considered good luck in one place while walking by them in another place.
Josh Hutchinson: You might feel like you have to spit on yourself or on the ground, to purge yourself of whatever taint there is. It's very terrible.
Sarah Jack: And this is in any culture, in any family. There are persons with albinism in every place needing our protection and understanding.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. All around the world, every continent, there are persons living with albinism and
Josh Hutchinson: every person deserves dignity and the right to enjoy a [00:37:00] life with the fullest possible health and wellbeing that there can be.
Josh Hutchinson: I
Sarah Jack: Really enjoyed getting to speak with Muluka and seeing her and listening to all the conversations that she was having with the various advocates about all the different complex needs and the crises that are being faced in different communities. She was very tuned in and engaging.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, definitely learned a lot from her and the, there was a lively question and answer session at the end of that. Andjust continued to learn more. Everybody was so eager to talk about how do we implement this resolution.
Sarah Jack: That night we had a very special event that we got to [00:38:00] attend.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we went to an art gallery.
Sarah Jack: And Josh had award-winning photos that were a part of a international photo exhibit.
Josh Hutchinson: Yay. That's right. Three of my photos were privileged to be part of this terrific exhibit.
Sarah Jack: Witch Hunts in the 21st century: a Human Rights Catastrophe is traveling the world. It'll be in Lancaster, England for a few more weeks, and then it's traveling to different countries around the world. So people can interact with it and learn about the crisis that's going on right now.
Sarah Jack: If your university has an art gallery that would like to participate in a social justice photo exhibit, please reach out.
Josh Hutchinson: What were your [00:39:00] photos?
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yes. The first photo was of the Alice Young memorial brick in Windsor, Connecticut. It's a brick dedicated to the first New England, first American colonies, hanging victim of a witch trial. And That is Alice Young. It's a picture of her brick with some roses we had laid during a memorial that we held on May 26th, 2023, the day after the legislation passed the Senate and the 376th anniversary of Alice Young's execution. So that, that was the first one. Then there's a picture of Samuel Parris's sermon book. You may remember him as the [00:40:00] minister of the Salem Village Church involved in the Salem Witch Trials. And the picture is open, the sermon book is open to his sermon he gave on "Christ Knows How Many Devils There are in His Church," which, was the sermon that Sarah Cloyce allegedly stormed out of because he was basically talking about her sister, Rebecca Nurse, which is Sarah's ancestor.
Sarah Jack: Did you go to Salem to get a look at that notebook?
Josh Hutchinson: No, actually it's in Connecticut at the former Connecticut Historical Society, now the Connecticut Museum of Culture and Historyso yeah, there's that picture. And the third picture is of Leo Igwe, paying tribute by laying flowers at the Procter's Ledge Memorial in Salem, which is at the site where [00:41:00] the hangings were believed to have taken place for those convicted under the Salem Witch Trials. And seeing Leo at that photo, looking at it, was very meta experience. It was. Just interesting, I got a picture of him looking at a picture of himself.
Sarah Jack: The other photos that are part of this exhibit are very moving. You are looking at the faces of communities where they have seen persecution against women and children and sometimes men for witchcraft accusations. It's very touching.
Josh Hutchinson: It is. You'll learn a lot about what's going on in the crisis by looking and reading the captions in the booklet that accompanies the exhibit. And then after the art exhibit, we had a lovely [00:42:00] dinner with the other attendees, it was great just sitting at a table. I would have been really thrilled to have been at any of the tables in that room. The only downside is you can only talk to so many people at a dinner. But we had just such wonderful conversation.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, there were attendees from Papua New Guinea at our table, from England. So it was a wonderful conversation.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was great chatting. And then at the end of the dinner, Kirsty Brimelow, K.C. gave a talk about the Lancashire Witch Trials. Yeah. And it was a great talk. I really enjoy when this type of gathering is happening. There's just this constant recognition of past matching present. And that even came through in her talk about [00:43:00] the victims of the Pendle witch trials and how that history even sometimes overshadows the court today.
Josh Hutchinson: And I want to say about the barrister here, she, I'm skipping ahead to day two for a minute. I hope you'll forgive me, listener. But she gave another talk about, talking about the history of a resolution against female genital mutilation and how that was implemented and what we can learn from the implementation of that resolution for, to apply to the resolution to eliminate these harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: And dessert was yummy.
Sarah Jack: I think I had cheesecake. I'm not really remembering.
Josh Hutchinson: I just remember it was really good.
Sarah Jack: There was coffee [00:44:00] served and I made sure everybody got a second cup who wanted a second cup.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And there was salmon, which I remember because I ate salmon like four days that week.
Sarah Jack: We really enjoyed getting to try food in England and there were yummy roasted vegetables so often.
Sarah Jack: And this dinner had them also. It was great.
Josh Hutchinson: It really was. Kudos to the chef and team that pulled that off.
Josh Hutchinson: Day two, we rode a double decker bus most of the way to the university.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it was impossible to get a ride share in the morning and wasn't sure about how to go about getting a taxi in the city. So we ended up just riding the bus out to the university and taking a little walk across the campus, which was [00:45:00] the other thing that.
Josh Hutchinson: I enjoyed eating the food. I enjoyed talking to the people and just being out. But I really enjoyed the weather while we were there. And again, this might be, we are going to do an episode specifically about our tourism that we did, but I want to say England, sunny, mild temperatures,in the sixties to seventies Fahrenheit, while we were there for highs, it was very comfortable. You could just walk around. No jacket usually. and,
Sarah Jack: no umbrella
Josh Hutchinson: be fine. Yeah. And we only had to use umbrellas one day that we were there and one morning and it rain ended in the afternoon. Yeah. It was just a lovely time in England.
Sarah Jack: Day two, we did not have a presentation, so we got to just settle in our conference seats and really soak in the presentations and [00:46:00] talking.
Sarah Jack: Speaking of settling in and having conversations, I was privileged enough to get to chat frequently with Nigel Thompson during this conference. The first day, I enjoyed talking to him about podcasting. The second day, we were talking more about what we learned the first day, at the art gallery. He and his team were there recording the conference and interviewing guests.
Josh Hutchinson: Nigel, very pleasant gentleman to talk to. so
Sarah Jack: There's just something that happens when podcasters find each other. There's just, an acknowledgment of craft that you have with each other, and you can talkall day about it.
Josh Hutchinson:
Josh Hutchinson: At day two, we had more great conversations with the attendees. It was amazing that many of them [00:47:00] know the podcast and knew of us before we met them.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, it was such a warm welcome and getting to plan upcoming episodes in person with experts that you're chatting with right there is so great. It's really beats sending an email.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Andit was so great, day two, we were free, as Sarah said, just to appreciate all the other talks that were going on and we learned so much.One great thing about it is we're going to be interviewing a number of these individuals who spoke at the conference. And so you'll get to hear what they talked about as well.
Sarah Jack: Our friend, Dr. Debora Moretti came into town to hear her boss, keynote. They're working on a project together. [00:48:00] And the keynote that Professor Davies gave was so great about linking historic witchcraft persecution to modern witchcraft persecution.
Sarah Jack: It was so great meeting him.
Sarah Jack: Owen Davies keynote was going to be one of my highlights. And it was, I was really excited that I was going to get to hear him speak in person. Having him as a guest on our podcast was a really big deal to me last year.
Sarah Jack: I hadn't even heard him speak, but I spied him sitting in a seat on that first day. And I was like, I thought, what if this is my only opportunity to say hi? It was the beginning of the day. So I'm like, I have to go over and say hi to Dr. Davies. But a little bit later I go in to get a fresh cup of coffee and my colleague is deep in conversation with Dr. Davies.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. Yeah, Professor Davies is very [00:49:00] interested in what goes on in America. He wrote a book, which is behind Sarah, America Bewitched, which talks about witchcraft persecutions in the United States after the Salem witch trials. And he talks about how more people were killed because of witchcraft accusations after the Salem witch trials than during.
Josh Hutchinson: And so it just. Lovely catching up with him, chatting with him. It's been at least a year since we talked to him about his book on The Art of the Grimoire. And so great to catch up and we got to talk to him more during the conference as well.
Josh Hutchinson: And his keynote, one of the points that stuck out to me, I think it was basically his main point was that if you look at 19th and [00:50:00] 20th century persecutions, extrajudicial, action against people accused of witchcraft are all around the world in Europe, England, the United States, all over. If you look at those 19th and 20th century events, that's where you can really see the closest similarities to what's happening in the modern world. He talked about the close links between those types of events.
Sarah Jack: And it happens to be one of the spaces of time that we haven't had the opportunity to share a lot of stories.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're really looking forward to talking about that. It's, there's not really a name for that period of witchcraft accusation. I know Sarah did ask Professor Davies, when he was on the show, last year about what do we call that [00:51:00] time period? But that's the time period that I'm most keen on getting into because we haven't really peeled that layer back of what was happening 18th, 19th and 20th century with those post Salem witchcraft accusations in the Western world.
Sarah Jack: Not only has there been. academic literature published on it, but there is newspaper archives, there's articles. It's in the papers.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. If you go to newspapers.com and just type in things like witch killing, witch killed, witch murdered, you'll find a surprising, yeah, witchcraft accusation,you find a surprising amount of things from even your own area. No matter where you are in the world, these things have been going on.
Sarah Jack: [00:52:00] Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: So yeah, that was a really good keynote.
Josh Hutchinson: And after all the talks were done, a roundtable was formed. We got to sit down,almost all the attendees just sat around tables together and the keynote speakers and some other members of the international network spoke out about what needs to be done to implement the resolution and we got to hear from Professor Davies again, we got to hear from Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond again.
Sarah Jack: Leo,
Josh Hutchinson: Leo Igwe, Philip Gibbs spoke,friend Samantha Spence spoke, Miranda Forsyth spoke, Charlotte Baker spoke, want to give a shout out to the crew that put on the conference, which was Charlotte Baker, Miranda Forsyth, Samantha Spence, Alice [00:53:00] Markham-Cantor, Leethen Bartholomew.
Josh Hutchinson: it
Josh Hutchinson: took many hands to make that thing run the way that it did.
Josh Hutchinson: And we learned so many things during those two days. We've already talked about the commonalities between historical witch hunts and contemporary harmful practices.They're extensive. They are extensive.
Josh Hutchinson: And what I'd like to point out and, talking again about Professor Davies' book, America Bewitched, really witchcraft accusations didn't end when the European witch trials ended. They continued on but went underground and extralegal.
Sarah Jack: That's why today, every day people are experiencing violence from witch hunts.
Josh Hutchinson: People often look back at historic witch hunts and say, well, [00:54:00] that ended 300, 400 years ago and, depending where you are exactly. And they say, well, let's just not do that again. But we see everyday occurrences of witch-hunting of various forms, and especially the literal, brutal, harmful practices are still going on.
Sarah Jack: And we're going to tackle this by everyone working together.
Josh Hutchinson: That was another point that was raised by Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond and many of the other speakers at the conference. Implementation of a resolution of this nature, given the scope of this problem, it's really going to take everybody from every background working together. So researchers, academics, advocates, activists, the media, you need [00:55:00] faith-based communities to get involved. You need non faith based NGOs to get involved. You need people who are in the countries that are most effective and part of those nations and cultures, and you also need people in other locations supporting them.So it really is going to take all hands on deck and there are plenty of ways that you can get involved that I think we'll talk about shortly.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one thing that came through the keynotes, but, and also many of the other sessions is the need for more and more data to be collected around the world about the scope and scale of the problem and more data to [00:56:00] both quantify the issue, but also qualify what is the actually happening around the world, on the ground when these things take place.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. And it's really about collecting it because there is information, this tragedy can be substantiated with records and the numbers of those are experiencing gender based violence. There's lots of places that there is data, but it needs to be organized.
Josh Hutchinson: There's no government agencies going around our country or any countrygathering data on harmful practices related to witchcraft accusations or ritual attacks. There's no central repository where you can go and say, oh, here's all the data. Butpeople at the conference did talk about the [00:57:00] need to make, to have a centralized database, also where all this data can reside and different researchers can access it and study the situation. But we need this data to be able to make the case to the nations of the world that they should take steps to do what's said in Resolution 47/8 for them to do, which we'll actually cover shortly.
Sarah Jack: I wanted to say something about so what is a UN resolution, but say, you don't really have to worry about that part. You need to pay attention to the values that it is representing, which are things that are important, not to everybody though, but that are important to those that care about safeguarding children and other vulnerable people.
Sarah Jack: And some of those values are equality, [00:58:00] non discrimination, human dignity, child safety, eldercare, women's rights,
Sarah Jack: freedom of thought,conscience, and religion. And to quote the resolution, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person, and that no one shall be subjected to torture, or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. That's a value that we should all share. It's enshrined in constitutions around the world, those rights to life, liberty, and security of person, freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, right there in the U S constitution and other constitutions, and also in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was signed 76 Years ago now.
Sarah Jack: We're now going to read to you [00:59:00] a portion of Resolution 47/8. The entire resolution contains two pages of whereas clauses, basically where it's stating, laying the groundwork, stating all the different international covenants and treaties that have been adopted that apply to this situation that say that you need to follow these rules. So we're going to read the recommendations that the Human Rights Council has for its member, for UN member states, the things that states should be doing to eliminate harmful practices. Here we go.
Josh Hutchinson: The Human Rights Council urges states to condemn harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks that result in human rights violations.
Sarah Jack: Also urges states to take all measures necessary to ensure the [01:00:00] elimination of harmful practices amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, and to ensure accountability and the effective protection of all persons, particularly persons in vulnerable situations.
Josh Hutchinson: Calls upon states to ensure that no one within their jurisdiction is deprived of the right to life, liberty, or security of person because of religion or belief, and that no one is subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, or punishment, or arbitrary arrest or detention on that account, and to bring justice to all perpetrators of violations and abuses of these rights in compliance with applicable and international law.
Sarah Jack: Invite states in collaboration with relevant regional and international organizations to promote bilateral, regional, and international initiatives to support the protection of all persons vulnerable to harmful practices [01:01:00] amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, while noting that, in providing protection, attention to local context is critical.
Josh Hutchinson: Also invites states to draw attention to this issue in the context of the Universal Periodic Review.
Sarah Jack: Emphasizes that states should carefully distinguish between harmful practices amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks and the lawful and legitimate exercise of different kinds of religion or beliefs in order to preserve the right to freely manifest a religion or a belief individually or in a community with others, including for persons belonging to religious minorities.
Josh Hutchinson: Encourages human rights mechanisms, including relevant special procedures of the human rights council and treaty bodies to compile and share information on harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, and their impact on the enjoyment of [01:02:00] human rights.
Sarah Jack: Request the United Nations High Commissionerfor Human Rights to organize an expert consultation with states and other relevant stakeholders, including the United Nations Secretariat and relevant bodies, representatives of sub regional and regional organizations, international human rights mechanisms, national human rights institutions, and nongovernmental organizations, the results of which will help the Office of the High Commissioner to prepare a study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization, and to inform further action by existing mechanisms at the United Nations, and to submit a report thereon to the Human Rights Council at its 52nd session.
Josh Hutchinson: And that resolution was adopted by the Human Rights Council on July 12th, 2021. And since then, there's been some more activity in implementing it. One thing that has been a [01:03:00] major development is the Pan African Parliament developed guidelines for its member nations to develop their own national action plans to ensure coordinated response to harmful practices occurring in accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: So how is the report distinct from the resolution?
Josh Hutchinson: The report it goes in more detail about the nature of the crisis. The resolution doesn't really establish the nature of the crisis in terms of magnitude or how it impacts specific communities, which the report breaks down the impacts to various, to children, to women and girls, to elders. It breaks down all those things, what actual human rights violations are being committed, as [01:04:00] well. It gives some specific recommendations that are for the implementation by the member states and other stakeholders.
Josh Hutchinson: So we're going to read a section from this report. It was given in 2023. We had mentioned it in the resolution, one of the steps is for this report to be created, and it was done in February 2023. We'll read the recommendations section.
Josh Hutchinson: Recalling recommendations made by human rights treaty bodies, the Universal Periodic Review, and special procedure mandate holders, the Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights recommends that states undertake the following actions.

Sarah Jack: Develop and implement comprehensive frameworks at national and local levels focusing on the prevention of human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful [01:05:00] practices related to accusations of and associations with witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization.With a view to ensuring the effectiveness and sustainability of such efforts, further research should be conducted on the design and implementation of policy and legal measures, including lessons learned from responses to hate crimes, prevention efforts, protective measures, and responsive services.
Josh Hutchinson: Address and promptly investigate human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, prosecute and adequately punish the perpetrators of such attacks, and in that regard, enhance the capacities of relevant stakeholders, including police officers, prosecutors, and judges.
Sarah Jack: Collect and publish information
Sarah Jack: including updated disaggregated data, exploring the behavioral barriers that prevent law enforcement officers from fulfilling their obligations to promptly investigate harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft [01:06:00] and ritual attacks and identify strategic entry points for pilot interventions.
Josh Hutchinson: Review and update relevant asylum policy guidance, including country guidance notes to include all countries that have increased vulnerability to harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft, as well as associations with witchcraft and ritual attacks that potentially threaten the life and safety of persons in vulnerable situations, pushing them to flee their countries and seek asylum.
Sarah Jack: Ensure that national authorities,as well as all human rights mechanisms, effectively address both human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and to association with witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: Conduct further research on prevention and responses, including an assessment of the risks related to a variety of settings, including conflict, intercommunal hostility, political and economic instability, elections, natural disasters, environmental [01:07:00] degradation, and public health crises.
Sarah Jack: Ensure that authorities identify, document, disseminate promising practices of combating human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: And organize systematic awareness raising campaigns targeting both men and women, as well as community and village chiefs and religious leaders, particularly in rural areas, with a view to tackling the root causes of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization.
Josh Hutchinson: Many more details on the implementation ideas that people have on how to put together national action plans is available in additional episodes. And, we'll go back to this in many upcoming episodes to give more detail on what still needs to be done. But what I talked about when I [01:08:00] was talking about the our York presentation on Ending Witch Hunts, the holistic approach, is basically what's needed to go forward. You need an all-in strategy encompassing all aspects of life and society.
Sarah Jack: We have many guests that you are going to hear soon presented at this conference.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, many coming up and many that you've heard in the past or can go back and check out. So check our show notes for links to past episodes with these great guests who spoke at the conferences and subscribe to our newsletter for information on our upcoming guests.
Sarah Jack: We thank everyone who supported this trip and who have shared information and who used their voice, [01:09:00] platform, and community to advocate.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, thank, everybody that we met at the conferences as well as, like Sarah said, everyone who generously contributed to our travel expenses. We really appreciate you allowing us to do this. We think it's very important for the movement this conference.
Mary Bingham: End Witch Hunts has recorded 99 cases related to spiritual and ritual abuse in the United States. Contributing factors known in some of these cases from the court documents of those who committed the crimes are extreme religious views, government conspiracy theories, Superstition, mental illness, and drugs. Most of these factors were present in the sad case of 13 month old Amora Bain Carson, whose life ended on December 2nd, 2008, at the hands of Blaine Milam and her mother, Jessica Carson. [01:10:00] Court documents tell us that Blaine had a 4th grade education and a history with drugs. Jessica became withdrawn and possibly suffered from psychotic depression after she began to date Blaine and was under his watchful eye 24/7. The pair used a Ouija board to contact their deceased fathers and believed a spirit was released and entered Amora. Blaine later performed the exorcism while Jessica waited in the next room. Blaine was found guilty in 2010 and sentenced to death. However, Blaine filed an appeal stating he can't be executed due to an intellectual disability.
Mary Bingham: Though these factors should be noted in our research, it is most important for us to remember the innocent lives that were lost. Rest in peace, Amora Bain Carson, and all of those who will be remembered in future segments of Minute with Mary. Thank you. [01:11:00]
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for joining us for this episode.
Sarah Jack: Have a great day and a beautiful tomorrow.
Josh Hutchinson: Yay. She said it.

October 8, 2024

Grace Sherwood: The Witch of Pungo with Scott O. Moore

Fresh from the release of his book⁠ The Witch of Pungo: Grace Sherwood in Virginia⁠, historian Scott O. Moore joins us to uncover the true story behind colonial Virginia’s only witch trial. In 1706, Grace Sherwood faced an unusual trial by water—but what really happened, and why does it still captivate us today? Moore examines both the legend and reality of Grace Sherwood, showing how local tensions transformed neighborhood conflict into a witch trial.

Learn how this singular case differed from the infamous Salem trials, and why Virginia Beach continues to grapple with Sherwood’s legacy three centuries later.

From ducking stools to modern-day memorials, this episode challenges what we think we know about witch trials in America, revealing how historical memory shapes—and sometimes distorts—our understanding of the past and present.

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Links

⁠Purchase the book The Witch of Pungo: Grace Sherwood in Virginia⁠

⁠Eastern history professor publishes book on legendary Virginia ‘witch’⁠

⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project

⁠Purchase the book The Witch of Pungo: Grace Sherwood In Virginia⁠

⁠Author’s Corner with Scott O. Moore⁠ ⁠

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast where for the last two years, we've explored the history of witch trials and their impact on society. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack. The first full episode of this podcast premiered October 6th, 2022, with a look at the history of the Connecticut Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: Since that premiere, we have done more than a hundred episodes on the history of witch trials around the world and how witch hunting has continued in the 21st century.
Sarah Jack: From our beginnings in New England, today we are venturing to the Southern U. S. to uncover a fascinating chapter in colonial American history.
Josh Hutchinson: We're digging into the story of Grace Sherwood, known as the Witch of Pungo, who faced accusations of witchcraft in early 18th century Virginia.
Sarah Jack: Taking place 13 years after the end of the Salem witch trials, this is a tale that challenges much of what we think we know about witch trials in America, from the legal proceedings [00:01:00] to the long-lasting cultural impact.
Josh Hutchinson: To help us unravel this intriguing story, we're joined by historian Scott O'Moore, who has extensively researched Grace Sherwood's case and its significance in Virginia's history, and written this book, The Witch of Pungo, available now from your local booksellers.
Sarah Jack: Or bookshop.org/endwitchhunts.
Josh Hutchinson: Scott's insights will take us on a journey from colonial courtrooms to modern day memorials, showing how one woman's story has shaped a community's identity for centuries.
Josh Hutchinson: We'll explore the economic and social factors behind witchcraft accusations, the practice of ducking people accused of witchcraft, and how historical memory can sometimes diverge from historical fact.
Sarah Jack: Here's our conversation with Scott O. Moore.
Sarah Jack: Welcome to Witch Hunt, Scott Moore. It's great to have you today. Can you tell us about your work and interests?
Scott O. Moore: Sure. [00:02:00] I'll start with the big picture, and then I'll narrow down to what brought me here today. If you were to look at the broader scope of my work as a historian, I am more interested in what you could call historical memory more than history itself. In other words, how do communities remember their past? How does that remembrance of their past shape the way they think about themselves, they think about other people, the way they think about the world around them?
Scott O. Moore: And, having grown up in Virginia Beach, Virginia, where the story takes place, I was obviously very exposed to all of the legacy of Grace Sherwood, the so-called Witch of Pungo, and you can't be a historian thinking about other people's history and not have it bleed into your own life. And as I looked around, I was thinking it would be a really interesting project to explore the impact of this singular witch trial and this singular accused witch on Virginia [00:03:00] history. In order to tell that story, I also then had to of course explore the actual history. And so if you were to look at the book, what it essentially does is break the story into three pieces. The first part is the actual history of what we can prove happened, but then also I look at the way legends and stories have been told about this trial and this accused witch, Grace Sherwood, and then I also look at the very long-term cultural impact, the way that, that culturally, this has influenced the way the city of Virginia Beach thinks about itself, thinks about its past and tells its story.
Josh Hutchinson: And so it's been a really rewarding experience to get to, to unpack that story. It's also been, a sort of bedeviling story, because, as I'm sure we'll get into, there is so much missing from the actual history, and also untangling history and legend can be challenging at times, but I think it's still an important story to tell, and it's been an interesting story, and it's been an interesting experience for me.It's a really [00:04:00] interesting book, very entertaining and informative, and it's great for us to get to explore the southern half of the country. We haven't been really south of New England yet on this podcast. So what should we know about colonial Virginia to set the stage?
Scott O. Moore: I think the most important, there are two things that I think are important to unpack, and as I move into the first one, I think, again, dealing with the historical memory, if you were to look at starting in the 1800s, the 19th century, as we began to really write the history of witch trials in North America, and by that I mean English-speaking North America, there was this perception thatwitch trials and witch belief was, and I'm going to use a paraphrase, a direct quote from a source of the time, was a uniquely Puritan dysfunction. There's this sense of this only really happened because the Puritans were in New England and everybody else was quote unquote, "more rational;" they were [00:05:00] lessconsumed by these beliefs. And this really wasn't true. The truth is that it's just all the records were kept in New England, while other places were sparser, and so we have less documentary evidence about witch trials in other places, but that doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
Scott O. Moore: But I do think, and what this basically gets to is that everybody that was part of the English-speaking North American world shared approximately the same beliefs in witches and witchcraft and magic. The main difference, and this gets to the second part, is that once you leave New England, the colonial governments were more hesitant to actually prosecute witchcraft as a crime.All of the New England colonies immediately passed witchcraft statutes when they were founded, and so they had their own laws that were separate and distinct from the rest of the English-speaking world,and in all of those cases, using magic regardless of how, when, and what purpose was technically a capital offense in [00:06:00] New England And this was not the same in Virginia, for example, where they were bound by the English witchcraft statutes, which treated it as a secular crime, not a religious crime. So if you were to look at, for example, everywhere else in Europe, what witches supposedly did with magic was secondary to the fact that by the standards of the time, they were considered heretics, they were devil worshipers.
Scott O. Moore: And so in the rest of Europe, witchcraft was prosecuted as a heresy, first and foremost, which is why it was a capital offense.In the case of England, it was always a secular crime, and so it was prosecuted depending on what witches supposedly did with their magic. And this creates a really bizarre world, and I know for your listeners this will seem strange, where you could actually be convicted of misdemeanor witchcraft or felony witchcraft, depending on what you did with it. If you were a fortune teller, or if you made love potions, or if you cursed someone's crops, that was less punished, or punished by a lesser sentence in England than, let's say, being accused of causing a [00:07:00] miscarriage or killing someone.
Scott O. Moore: The other thing that I think is unique to Virginia, and not unique to Virginia, but what separates it from New England, is because the governors were less likely to prosecute witchcraft,you essentially had witch accusations moreoccurring with slander suits, basically someone being called a witch by their neighbor, and then them taking that neighbor to court to reclaim their good name, to try to restore their standing in the community. So we have literally dozens of people who were called witches by their neighbors, but only a handful of people were formally prosecuted by the actual government of Virginia for witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. That's so helpful to set the stage for learning about Grace. Before we jump into who she actually was, would you want to tell us about her in popular lore or who the Witch of Pungo is known to be?
Scott O. Moore: Sure, and so I think [00:08:00] the, and this will set that stage for both, I think, the historical and legendary Grace Sherwood, is that we, the only records we have from colonial Virginia at the time she was tried in the early 1700s are court records, and those court records, which I know we're probably going to dig into, are very sparse on details. We know what happened in the trial, but we don't know a lot of, for example, we have no idea what she looked like. We have no idea how she talked, we have no idea what she may have said at any of her trials.
Scott O. Moore: And the challenge, though, is because she was prosecuted, or part of the evidence used against her was that she failed a trial by water. So she was put in water, or "ducked," using the colloquial language and because she floated that kept the trial moving along. Well that was a weird event, tying up a woman and putting her in water to see if she would float to see if she was a witch. And so there's a region of Virginia Beach called Witch Duck Point, and it has been called some variation of that witch duck point, the Witch's [00:09:00] Duck or Witch Duck, really since at least the 1700s and what that did was generate a whole host of legends and stories, some of which are very fantastical, that really have nothing to do with a woman named Grace Sherwood. And once we found out the witch was Grace Sherwood, then they added her name to these legends.
Scott O. Moore: So there are very fantastical stories. For example, she sailed on eggshells to bring back rosemary to Virginia, that she was able to cause storms when she was ducked as a way of ducking the crowd that was watching her. But you also began to see, starting in the 19th century, once knowledge of her case was, uncovered, people essentially filling in an equally legendary story, which is trying to figure out, okay, who was this woman actually? And in this regard, who Grace Sherwood was has really changed in popular consciousness with the times. Starting in the 19th century, she was this meek, demure woman who was victimized by powerful men around her. And that very much fit the vogue of how writers at the time thought about [00:10:00] witch trials, but also thought about the idea of the damsel in distress.
Scott O. Moore: By the time you get to the 1950s, local legend tellers began to make her a little more spirited. So there's a very famous woman named Louisa Venable Kyle, who wrote a children's book called The Witch of Pungo, and it contains a little story about Grace Sherwood. And according to Louisa Venable Kyle, who literally told this story off and on for probably 30 or 40 years,Grace Sherwood was this iconoclastic, unconventional woman who was just out of time, in the sense of she, she belonged more in the modern era than in time she was. And so she offended her neighbors by challenging social norms. And by the 1970s, she, rumor was that she would wear pants, because she found them more comfortable and, essentially better to work in the fields. But this scandalized her neighbors because they were more form-fitting, and longstanding legend also argued that she was breathtakingly beautiful and so there was this assumption that she was this seductress going aroundthe southeastern part of then Princess Anne [00:11:00] County.
Scott O. Moore: This sort of image has stuck, but more recently, I'd say in the last 20 years or so, there also began to be this image of her as a midwife or healer, and so she was a woman who was good with herbs, the person who tried to take care of her community and was in tune with nature. And this is why she ran afoul of those in her community And this is a very modern phenomenon, yet it's also the one almost all of your readers are going to encounter if they immediately Google Grace Sherwood. Everything that pops up is going to say she was persecuted as a midwife or healer. And yet this image is actually less than 25 years old. And there really is no evidence of any of those perceptions. And in fact, I think it's interesting if you look, by the time you get to around 2000, if you were to go to public consciousness or popular consciousness of what made women vulnerable to be accused of witchcraft, by 2000, you did have this image of essentially new age women who were ahead of their time. And in this sense, the stories of Grace Sherwood almost went [00:12:00] national. They essentially began adopting broader characteristics that were ascribed to generically witches in general. But that's the legendary Grace Sherwood. And then I'm sure you'll have questions about the woman we actually can figure out, based on records.
Josh Hutchinson: First I want to say that having a witch be beautiful strikes me as a little unusual that it's not the stereotype that is in my head.
Sarah Jack: Oh yeah, it's really, I think, one of the more unique pieces of the puzzle, because if you look at all of the legends I just went through, a lot of them have antecedents in other witch tales from other places. You even have witch is sailing and eggshells in other traditions. And the fact that she was beautiful is I think an interesting, very local spin. And it's also, I think interestingly, one of the oldest pieces of legend about her. I mean, we have records going back to the early 20th century, late 19th century, that describe her as [00:13:00] shockingly beautiful, but in one of the early sources again said that it disturbed the serenity of her community, how beautiful she was. And that has sort of stuck, but you're right, it runs very much against the grain of what we normally assume witches to be. And who was the actual Grace Sherwood?
Scott O. Moore: Right, so from what we can tell, and again, we're basing our knowledge on very scant surviving evidence, and I want to apologize for the fact you're going to hear a lot of from what we can tell, or you could assume, and I know even just telling the story, when I give talks and speak with people, I know one of the things that often people are frustrated by is they want more meat. They want more truth. And the problem is there's not a lot that we can find. But we do know based on court records, land deeds, and things like that, that Grace Sherwood was the daughter of a relatively successful mid-tier planter. Her father owned 195 acres of land, [00:14:00] which was by no means extravagant, but it made him comfortable. It made him respectable. More importantly, he was also a carpenter, which was a very rare skill in Virginia by the middle of the 1600s. There really wasn't a strong manufacturing sector in Virginia early on. And by all accounts, based on where he shows up in people's wills, the way that he interacted with the community, he was very well respected. I mean no slander to Grace Sherwood's husband, James, but if you judge their marriage purely on socioeconomic conditions, her husband, James Sherwood, was a less prosperous person than her father. He couldn't read, he didn't have a trade, he didn't own land, and what that meant is when they got married and her father died literally a year later, the only thing they had to root them in the community is what her father provided her.
Scott O. Moore: And what we can tell is that their economic condition began to deteriorate. We know, for example, James Sherwood, Grace's husband, was sued several [00:15:00] times for not paying back debts. They were forced to sell off land to some neighbors. These things aren't exceptional, but what is unique is that he is never lending money to anyone, and he is never buying land.
Scott O. Moore: In other words, we only ever see him interacting with the court in a vulnerable economic position, and we do know if you were to compare the broad history of witch trials in both Europe and North America, we do know that people who experience declining economic fortunes are more likely to be targeted as witches by their community, and there's lots of reasons, if y'all want to get into that, we can do that.
Scott O. Moore: Around the time her husband starts planning she also ends up in court with her husband suing to defend her reputation. In 1698, she is involved in 3 lawsuits related to slander. The 1st, we don't know exactly what the slander was; it just says she's suing a neighbor, Richard Capps, for an act of defamation. 2 other cases that occur later that year are explicitly related to witchcraft. She and her husband sue 2 [00:16:00] sets of neighbors, John and Jane Gisburne and Anthony and Elizabeth Barnes, both of whom had apparently told neighbors that she was a witch. These are really the only allegations where we have specific sort of tantalizing details about what people thought Grace Sherwood could do with magic. For example, they sued John and Jane Gisburne, because they were contesting an allegation that Grace Sherwood had cursed and bewitched their cotton and their pigs so basically they were telling neighbors that she had killed some cotton crops and that she had killed some of their pigs. The Elizabeth Barnes allegation is always a little more exciting, because she was apparently telling people that Grace Sherwood came to her at night, rode her like a horse, and then turned into a cat and disappeared out the door.
Scott O. Moore: Your listeners are listening regularly, they'll know these are actually really generic allegations of witchcraft. They are very much out of the stock of what Europeans believed that witches would do to people they were [00:17:00] tormenting. So there's nothing exceptional in and of those allegations.It's notable that Grace Sherwood, even though they brought nine witnesses to allege they had heard the slander, the Sherwoods lost both cases, and the jury found for, for the defendants, which tells me, first off, slander usually had to be very egregious for a jury to actually award somebody damages. Most of the time, it was an action people took just to show they wanted to reclaim their good name. But I think it's notable that the jury discounted nine witnesses, and what that tells me is either they didn't think the slander damaged her reputation that much, because her reputation was already so bad, or that really there was nothing to gain for her for them doing this. I'm not sure if there was, if it was widespread thought that she was a witch, there seems to be evidence. If you look, the only people that ever accused her lived literally [00:18:00] right next to her. And she lived in a very remote part of Princess Anne County, Virginia. And so I'm not sure how much those allegations filtered outside of that region. But, she was suing people that had a lot of respect. She literally sued two sitting constables. Richard Capps, the first person she sued, and then John Gisburne were both constables, who would have had a lot of friendship and support with their courts.Things calm down for Grace Sherwood. Unfortunately, her husband dies in 1701. She also loses the title to her land, most likely for not paying taxes, in 1704. So those economic vulnerabilities keep perpetuating. And in 1705, she's back in court suing another neighbor, Elizabeth Hill, for assault. So she's basically arguing Elizabeth Hill attacked her, and in this case, she actually won, and the odds are, because there was no other evidence besides the testimonies, Grace Sherwood was probably still visibly injured from that assault, and so there was no denying the fact it happened.
Scott O. Moore: But you can tell that she doesn't have a great [00:19:00] reputation, because even though the jury finds for her, they literally award her the equivalent of $66.00 in damages. Which is a far cry. I think she asked for something like $7,000 or $7,500, and I'm adjusting for inflation, obviously. But also the jury foreman never signed the verdict, which meant it was never official, so she never received those damages, and we do have evidence the court asked them to come back and asked him to come back to sign it, and he, there's no evidence he did. And you might think, oh, that could just be an oversight. This is a time where maybe people didn't know what they were supposed to do. Well, this guy, Mark, Mark Powell, had been on countless juries before. He had also been a foreman before. More importantly, there is literally an assault case the exact same day by heard by the exact same jury that finds for the plaintiff and that verdict is signed and the damages are awarded. So, it was a very specific decision to not award Grace Sherwood the damages they gave her. And what that tells me is they wanted to signal a degree of contempt [00:20:00] in Grace Sherwood. They could not deny the validity of her claims, but they didn't want her to actually sort of get the win. Regardless, things get more dire for her because Elizabeth Hill and her husband Luke immediately then accuse her of witchcraft. And this means now there has to be a formal procedure, and at the same time, this is the first witch trial that's had a formal witch accusation of witchcraft in Princess Anne County in several years. There weren't that many to begin with. There's only evidence of 1 other formal witch trial, and that ended with an immediate acquittal. So there's no evidence of 1 where the judges actually had to keep the ball rolling to figure out what to do.
Scott O. Moore: I'm not going to get into the weeds of the trial, because I'm sure you'll have questions, but basically it drags on until finally, in a last ditch effort to resolve the matter, as I mentioned, the judges essentially ask that she be ducked, that they, that, and this is to be evidence of guilt. It's [00:21:00] not actually going to decide her guilt, but it's evidence that could be used in the trial itself. And frustratingly, because the court records from the, from the colonial General Court, which was heard by the governor, those records were destroyed in the Civil War, so we have no idea what the outcome of the final trial would have been if the case was referred to him, but we do know after her ducking, nothing else happened at the county, and so we don't frustratingly know what actually happened at the end of her trial. We just know she was ducked. We do know, however, she lived. We do know she's back on her farm by 1708, where she continued to eke out a living. She did get her land back officially in 1715 by paying back taxes, but she was in court several times for not paying debts, so this tells us she continued to barely make ends meet,though she did live to 1740, to about the age of 80, and by all accounts, from what I can uncover, she actually outlived everybody that accused her, and so she was last woman standing. But [00:22:00] like I said, the sort of final decades were not exactly prosperous, but at least she avoided future legal entanglements.
Josh Hutchinson: So much of her case seems very typical, the neighborly disputes, the crop failure and the livestock getting harmed. We see that a lot, but the witch ducking is unusual in the colonies. We've only seen that a couple of times in New England. Can you explain what the purpose of that test was and how it worked?
Scott O. Moore: Yeah, it's, if you were, if you want to be official, historians like to call it a trial by water ora water test. And it's based on the medieval belief that water repels evil and pure water, especially running water of a river, would be repelled by evil, and therefore, if you put someone unclean in it, they would float unnaturally. This was part of a wide series of medieval tests that were used when you had a trial, but you didn't have evidence of who might be guilty. [00:23:00] And let's say you have murder or theft, something like that.
Scott O. Moore: And we could spend literally an entire podcast talking about the very bizarre trials that Europeans used to determine guilt. For example, you would have a thief hold a red hot iron to see if their hand burned. And if it didn't burn, then that meant they were innocent. If it did burn, that meant they were guilty. All of this was based on the idea that God would not allow an innocent person to be unjustly convicted. And so there would be divine intervention in these tests.
Scott O. Moore: Almost all of them had fallen out of popular use, except for trial by water, which became almost exclusively associated with witchcraft. The idea that witches, being the devil's servants, would be unnaturally repelled by water. That said, even though, thanks to Monty Python and a lot of other sort of popular consciousness, we see this as almost the go to test to determine the guilt of a witch. As you rightly point out, it was relatively infrequently used. In fact, we have more evidence of it being used by vigilante mobs [00:24:00] to determine if somebody was a witch because they're frustrated the courts aren't doing enough. And and many of the cases you mentioned in New England are actually, there's several in Connecticut, where I live, where mobs basically attacked the supposed local witch, tied her up and put her in the water.
Scott O. Moore: And if you look even at the time, you could go back to the 15 and 16 hundreds to see very rigorous fighting over the validity of this test. Plenty of people who very much believed in witchcraft were also saying we don't think this can actually work,and you have lots of skeptics that point out all the various ways somebody might sink or float, depending how they're put in the water, how their body weight is distributed. Because nobody is technically supposed to die, most of the time, somebody was holding on to the rope, and so the idea was if it looks like they're about to drown, you have to pull them quickly out of the water. if you have, two people holding a piece of rope, and they're really nervous already, and all of a sudden somebody's acting weird, what's to stop them from, let's say, pulling it too hard and making that [00:25:00] person look like they're floating simply by how the rope's held? So plenty of people pointed out these issues.
Scott O. Moore: There's another thing that taints the test, and that is during the English Civil War in the 1640s, a man named Matthew Hopkins, who was a Puritan zealot, proclaimed himself to be Witchfinder General, and he argued that he had a divine calling to eradicate all of the witches from England, to help end the unrest of the Civil War. And over the course of about two years, he was responsible for the worst witch hunt in English history. He was responsible for the death of around 300 women,in a very short span of time. And his preferred method of determining the guilt of the accused witches was ducking.
Scott O. Moore: And because the Puritans lost the Civil War, and also because of the fact that you had this association, it was a very dubious test. And in fact, I think the reality that Virginia or that the Princess Anne County Court resorted to this test is a really clear sign that they had no idea [00:26:00] what to do to make this go away. And I think it was a last ditch effort to try to resolve the matter. Even in the court records, they say this was to finally decide if she was guilty or innocent and to sort of determine once and for all what should be done. And I think it's, part of the reason I'm suspicious that she was ever formally tried in Williamsburg, which we'll talk more about that in a second. Part of the reason I'm suspicious of that is because the only evidence Princess Anne County could really give is that we think she floated when we put her in the water. And keep in mind, this is over a decade after the Salem Witch Trials, where you have now, at this point, libraries of books being written about the injustices that happened because of dubious evidence. And so, you know, would Virginia's government, knowing full well of what's been going on in New England at this time, be willing to formally prosecute a woman based on something so dubious and so questionable? I'm suspicious. But I think [00:27:00] it's a sign of desperation.
Scott O. Moore: If you'll indulge about 30 more seconds, I do also think there's another reason she might have been ducked. And that is as rare, she is the only known case where a woman was ducked to test for witchcraft in Virginia. But women were ducked constantly in Virginia as troublesome women. Because of the colonial, the way colonial laws were determined, a husband had to represent his wife in court. So a woman had no right to, to petition the court on her own behalf. So that meant if you were a husband and your wife was sued, you were on the hook for whatever she was fined. There were so many slander suits and other cases involving women that were gossips or scolds or, I'm using the language they would use at the time, that Virginia finally passed a law that said, okay, husbands, if you don't want to pay the penalty, you can have your wife publicly ducked instead as a form of almost public humiliation. And if she is publicly [00:28:00] humiliated and then also promises to never be bad again, that will be sufficient to wipe out whatever the result of the trial would be.
Scott O. Moore: And so in my mind, and knowing that association and knowing that the court would frequently use that as a tool of punishingwomen that were seen as problematic in the community, I can't help but think in their mind, this is a two for one thing. They're able to signal they're taking the witchcraft accusation seriously, while also signaling to both Grace Sherwood and the community around her that they think she's a problem and she needs to essentially get it. And there's no way also the witnesses of the ducking would not have had that association. And so I think there's 2 things going on.
Josh Hutchinson: She's humiliated in public and frightened, of course, by being ducked in the water. And that kind of serves just to say, don't do this again.
Scott O. Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think also, for the folks that thought she was a witch. [00:29:00] That vindicated their suspicion,seeing the fact that she floated, and for the rest of the community that just really didn't want to see her in court again, this signaled, we're signaling to her, get in line, and I'm sure she got the message herself, because she doesn't show up in court for anything besides very mundane matters related to economics.
Scott O. Moore: There are no more disputes with neighbors. And so that doesn't, obviously, we can't say she got along with her neighbors, but nothing rose to the point where people felt the need to bring her to court or she felt the need to bring them to court. And it would obviously, even if it didn't result in a formal conviction for witchcraft, it would have been a very obvious signal of the community to, of trying to essentially, as I said, put her back in line, which is what that punishment was meant for in most other cases.
Sarah Jack: And did they happen to do that in Connecticut as well?
Scott O. Moore: I would have to check. I'm sure there, the idea of the ducking stool was really common. [00:30:00] yeah. And but it, and it was, it, and so I'm guessing there probably would've been some possibility, but I don't wanna get over my skis 'cause I haven't dug into it.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm curious. I descend from Winifred Benham, who Robert Calef reports as being ducked during her last witch trial. So I was curious.She, they had, her and her husband were not community favorites also.
Scott O. Moore: Yeah, it's just, I'm sure that association probably filtered out of Virginia, but I do know Virginia actually took the step of literally passing a law where it was a formal punishment, that was almost exclusively reserved for what they called "brabbling women," women who just talked and gossiped and just didn't stay in their appropriate lanes. And, and there are plenty of court cases where we have women repeatedly submerged, because many counties actually had a formal ducking stool, as I mentioned, which was this little device that literally, put underwater and could be held until they cranked it out again. And [00:31:00] so a woman would be essentially held underwater while she was tied to this chair, and then that would happen several times. And we know based on other counties that women were essentially required to promise to never do bad things again as part of the ducking. When they would pull her out, they'd say, are you ready to be good? And if she seemed hesitant, they would put her back in. And it was a form of almost public, obviously a public humiliation and a form of public torture of women that we're seeing as challenging.
Sarah Jack: I find this so informing because now I'm, and I wasn't aware of this until this conversation, but I know that some of the trials that Governor Winthrop Jr. was on, he, I think it was Katherine Harrison, he told her to straighten up. And I always thought, why are they doing that? But evidently, women, really told to straighten up like physically too, it sounds like. I didn't understand that element of it.
Scott O. Moore: Absolutely. And we [00:32:00] know also in, and again, you can see this with Grace Sherwood's case, but I think looking at other cases of witchcraft help to make her case makes so much more sense. We knowthat sort of one of the things, especially in North America, that made women vulnerable to being accused of being a witch is essentially a rapidly declining reputation.
Scott O. Moore: In other words, it starts out with, oh, she argues too much with her neighbors. Oh, she doesn't do things the right way. Or she's challenging the way things are supposed to operate. Or she's a gossip. She's a scold. We think she has questionable sexual morality. And these things essentially compound until finally when people have something unusual happen, they're like, we need our witch, and so obviously it's her, because who else is going to be a witch? It's going to be the woman who's not doing things the right way. And so it's really hard to not see a lot of the punishments that were donewhen supposed witches were investigated or punished when they weren't executed, but if they were punished in other ways, to also not look at [00:33:00] that in conjunction with the colonial governments punished women who challenged social norms, which was, all of those things were legislative. In other words, the idea that a woman had to be faithful to her husband, a woman could not gossip or talk ill of her neighbors. All of those things were statutory so that you could be prosecuted for essentially those things.
Josh Hutchinson: And I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier. You talked about how a decline in a person's economic status contributes to witch hunting, and we've certainly seen that in cases like in Salem with Sarah Good, who came from a good family, but inherited basically nothing and was reduced to begging for assistance. So how did economic decline, how did that play into Grace Sherwood's trial and other cases like hers?
Scott O. Moore: So, I think there's really two things that are going on, and I want to [00:34:00] acknowledge I'm very much sitting on the shoulders of much better historians than me who have dug deeper into the witch trials in other places.
Scott O. Moore: This is the context that I use to help me make sense of looking at Grace Sherwood's circumstances. Two things are going on, especially in the Puritan case, somebody who experienced rapid decline in economic fortune, that could be seen as a sign of God's displeasure. Obviously, God is withdrawing favor from that individual. And I say, especially in the Puritan case, but also in general, in the broader Christian world during this period in Europe, that could be seen as a sign of something amiss.I think the more robust answer is and this is going to involve sort of two things. We're going to have to try to do the dangerous work of peering into psychology, but, for example, we know that in a small community for especially, let's say, a New England colony or Virginia at this time, which is a very small population, if somebody is [00:35:00] poorer, they're going to occasionally need assistance. They're going to need to borrow money, or they're going to need help. For example, they may need to, let's say, beg for food or beg for other assistance, and we know that when people beg their neighbors for things, that breeds resentment and frustration,and so often what would happen is people would ask for things and they would be denied, and we know that often these denials would then be followed by allegations that the beggar was a witch.
Scott O. Moore: And there are two things that can often go on. Some historians have argued it's basically displaced guilt. In other words, I know from a, let's say, a charitable Christian perspective, I should help my needy neighbor. But I didn't, and so I feel bad about that, and so how can I make myself feel less guilty for not doing the godly thing? Well, obviously, she was a witch, and so I was righteous in not giving it to her.
Sarah Jack: Also, you tended to see, and this is again, almost a guilt by [00:36:00] association, circumstances where somebody denies a neighbor assistance, and then something bad happens to them afterward. And so again, in your mind, wait, is God punishing me for not being charitable? Well, that, I don't like that. And so what if I'm being attacked by the witch because I didn't help her? And you tend to basically blame the misfortune on being bewitched as opposed to, let's say, divinelack of favor. My favorite example of this phenomenon, because it almost lines up too well, there was a woman in the 1600s named Elizabeth Goodman, who was in New Haven in Connecticut. And we have two cases. We know that she was a beggar who tended to beg aggressively in the sense that she would be very insistent for assistance and neighbors thought she did so in quote, "a sullen and ungrateful manner." And we know on one case she asked a neighbor for buttermilk because she needed buttermilk. The neighbor said, I can't, I need to give it to my pigs. And she apparently [00:37:00] looked at him and said, it won't do your pigs any good. And then the pigs started dying one after another, soon after. In another case, she asked the neighbor for beer and was told that he didn't have enough to give. And then all of a sudden his beer started going sour, even though he kept brewing fresh batches. And so take that sort of association, almost ironic misfortune followed after you deny assistance, and then, well, that's obviously your witches. Thank you so much. What do we know, what do we need to know, or what can we know about her trial after the dunking?
Scott O. Moore: And so as I mentioned, so if you look, there's a whole series of events that lead up to Grace Sherwood's dunking. Most of it, to be honest, is back and forth with trying to get evidence. The only evidence the court was able to find was that she had suspicious marks on her body, which were seen as devil's marks or witch's marks, sort of sign that she was in league with the devil, but they didn't have much else. And we know, [00:38:00] for example, Luke Hill, who was the one who brought the case against Grace Sherwood, was frustrated by what he saw as the court dragging at the county level. So he actually took the very bold action for a guy who's essentially very lower middle class and wrote the governor of Virginia personally and said, I want you to intervene and prosecute Grace Sherwood, and he referred that to the attorney general. The attorney general reviewed everything and basically said the charge is too general. I need something specific.
Scott O. Moore: Because remember in Virginia, you had to be accused of specifically doing something with witchcraft. And so all that the charge said is that she bewitched Elizabeth Hill. Well, we, what specifically did she do? He argued that had to be there. He also said, we need more evidence. I can't prosecute based on this evidence.
Scott O. Moore: And so essentially what he's saying is, so Virginia had a two-tier court system. The county court tried all misdemeanors, and the General Court in Williamsburg tried all felonies. And so also what he's basically saying [00:39:00] is, if this is a misdemeanor, I don't have the authority to try it. I can only try this if this is a felony. And so give me evidence, give me a charge, and we'll see what happens.
Scott O. Moore: And so now the county court has to do something, and they have trouble getting more evidence, so they arrive at ducking. We do know that, according to the records, after she's ducked, the argument was she floated contrary to nature, and so they argued this was not enough to secure immediate release, so they remanded her to the county jail to await future trial. And that's the exact phrase, "to await future trial." This was not a conviction. And I keep harping on this, for any of your listeners that don't know why I'm harping on this, because one of the things that constantly pops up in collective memory of her trial is that she is the only convicted witch in Virginia's history. We have no evidence that she was actually convicted. We only know that she was ducked. The county court did not convict her. There was never a jury that heard the case. The judges never rendered a verdict. They essentially just said, we [00:40:00] need to hold her in remand until future trial happens.
Scott O. Moore: The fact that there is no trial that takes place in Princess Anne County signals they didn't have that trial there. And so what is likely the case is they wanted the General Court heard by the governor to be the final say as to what happens, that they didn't want that hot potato in the decision made, so they wanted them to make the final call. As I said, those records were burned, so we have no idea what would have happened.
Scott O. Moore: But there are several, and I, the phrase I use is, there are several dogs that aren't barking. Even if we don't have their records, there are other ways the General Court's actions show up in other places, and I'm going to give you some of them. The governor of Virginia was one of the most well connected men at the time in the English-speaking world. He was personally appointed by the king. I say governor, he was actually lieutenant governor. But what that means is he was very well connected with England. He [00:41:00] was very well connected to other merchants and other governors in North America. So was his governor's council. So were the merchants that came in and out of Williamsburg. Even though nobody would have looked through their records to find evidence of Grace Sherwood, we, other historians have looked through all sorts of stuff that those men have written to tell the story of England's colonial empire. And I have a hard time believing something so weird wouldn't have shown up in a letter somewhere, where the, even if it's just an offhanded. So we had a witch trial today. Or there was this strange case where a woman was ducked in Princess Anne County. There's nothing. It's complete silence.
Scott O. Moore: The other thing is if we think back, the attorney general said, I need a specific charge and I need evidence. While they hadn't clarified the charge at all, and the only new evidence was very dubious. And so would he have found that robust enough to pull ahead for a trial when he was skeptical before. Added to this, because of the way those [00:42:00] trials took place, when a county court sent someone to be prosecuted, they had to provide six jurors, so they had to provide half of the jury, and they also had to provide all of the witnesses. And so that meant people had to pay to travel to Williamsburg, which would have been a week's, if not month's journey, if you think about how long the trial may have taken. And so it was very expensive. And the way Virginia law worked is, whomever lost the trial, so if you were prosecuted in the general court and lost, you had to pay for you to go and everybody else who went.
Scott O. Moore: So it was an enormous financial hit, too. If you couldn't pay, then the county and the colony, colonial government, divvied up the cost. There is no mention in the Princess Anne County records of having to settle accounts for this trial, and even if it had been heard in Williamsburg, they still would have had to pay for their end, or had to have, secure jurors, or they would have had to order somebody to pay.
Scott O. Moore: There is nothing related to that, and we know from other counties and other countycourt records, [00:43:00] you see all the time where you have these mentions of so and so has returned from Williamsburg, or we have to send this money for because so and so had to travel to Williamsburg, and all of that's missing.
Scott O. Moore: My personal suspicion is that it was referred to the general court. And they basically, either the attorney general dismissed it outright and refused to prosecute, or he brought it to the grand jury, who found it unconvincing for an indictment. And then, basically, she was remanded in jail until that was resolved within a few months.
Scott O. Moore: And as I said, we know for certain she was back on her farm by 1708, and there is never any mention of her being punished. And if you want to think of the range of how people were punished for witchcraft, technically if it was a felony, that was death. Technically according to English law, if it was a misdemeanor, you were imprisoned for a year, or, you could face corporal punishment.
Josh Hutchinson: The only known person we know of certain, with certainty, that was convicted by a court in Virginia for witchcraft was a man named William Harding, who was [00:44:00] convicted by a county court in Northumberland, and he was whipped and banished, so it was an immediate punishment, and those were clearly stated in the county court records, and we have no mention of her ever having any punishment. There's never a mention in any of the subsequent court cases related to debts that she had been previously convicted. And it seems like the men who were charged with investigating the case didn't want to proceed with punishment because maybe they were skeptical of the evidence, which seems a shift in attitudes, certainly in the 14 years since Salem. So this seems to be occurring at a turning point inhow these cases were dealt with.
Scott O. Moore: Yeah, I would say absolutely. I think that's two things are going on. So first off, I know from digging through the county court records, merchants from Salem traded in [00:45:00] Princess Anne County. And so even if normal people living on remote farms didn't know what happened, the justices probably did. And also, as I know from all the work y'all have done, literally within years of the Salem Witch Trials, so not decades, years, months, people were writing about it and essentially critiquing it. And so that had to be on the minds of the county justices and especially the colonial General Court, this idea of how, are we going to prosecute somebody based on such tangential evidence? And the county court really just wanted this whole thing to go away. They, first off, they dragged their feet. Most of the time, these things are resolved within 1 or 2 court days. These things, you don't have multi-month trials really, during this period once they're ready to get the ball rolling.
Scott O. Moore: And also we know, you can tell they want it to go away. Because they make the very controversial decision early on, so within the first hearing or two, to basically say to Luke Hill, the accuser, alright, you want us to dig into this? [00:46:00] Fine, we'll keep digging. But you're paying for everything. So we're not waiting for who loses to pay. You're on the hook for all of the costs related to this trial. And he was not a rich man. He was the same class as Grace Sherwood.
Scott O. Moore: And you can, this was obviously the county court basically saying, fix this yourself and leave us out of it. And yet he looks to them and says, fine, I will be happy to keep paying, get the ball rolling. And, and so they're forced to have to keep moving on.When it comes to, I think, though,the comparison, and I don't think I mentioned this when I talked about the difference between, let's say, New England and the rest of the colonies, if you were to look, again, I'm relying on other historians, the biggest determination of when a court is willing to actually prosecute suspected witches, when they're really going to go for it, is the belief in what we would call diabolism,the being convinced the devil is active in your community and is using human agents like witches to try to destroy the godliness of your community.
Scott O. Moore: We know that [00:47:00] in order for witch trials to take place, formal witch trials, where you're going to prosecute and punish women for being witches, that you have to have that belief. And you certainly had it with the Puritans, where, they were very convinced God was attacking their city on a hill.
Sarah Jack: And if you look at other jurisdictions in Europe, it waxes and wanes. And so when you have this fervor, that's when you get these periods of intense witch hunting. For some reason, I have no explanation, the only thing I can say is that it's not that they are more rational and more intelligent, but for some reason, English jurisdictions, and this filters into all of the non New England colonies of England, were never worried about diabolism. There was never this conviction that the devil is active in the community and you have to ferret out the witches. Instead, they're worried about witchcraft the same way normal people are, which is, oh, what if we have a witch who's cursing my crops, and we have to punish her because she's cursing crops? There's not this belief in satanic [00:48:00] conspiracies that's driving their fervor, and I have no idea why, but that is a sort of X factor that's very much missing from those governors. I'm curious if she has any memorials and if she's had any exoneration or anything like that.
Scott O. Moore: Yes, in fact, she has, so there's lots of, I'll call them informal memorials. As I mentioned, we've, Virginia Beach has been telling stories about her literally for centuries. There is that children's book I mentioned, The Witch of Pungo. Pungo, by the way, for anybody who's what is this Pungo place? It's the name given to the small little village that she lived near. She actually lived about a 20 minute drive from it today. But, but it's, today, it's this little tiny rural spot of Virginia Beach, which is this large sprawling city. But if you go to the southern tip of the city, past the ocean front, it's this rural area. And sothe, there has been for decades, until Covid, an event called the Pungo Strawberry Festival. [00:49:00] And one of the dignitaries of that was an honorary witch of Pungo, where people got together and awarded the title to somebody who was a particularly good public servant. And so people who worked with the community well, did charity work, were the honorary witch of Pungo, with lots of jokes of, only in Pungo is it an honor to be called a witch. But more formally, there is a highway marker near Witch Duck Point in Virginia Beach that was put up in 2002that is essentially the standard historical marker you would have near other significant sites.
Scott O. Moore: In the early 2000s, there was a woman named Belinda Nash, who was a, the city's sort of authority on Grace Sherwood, who, by all accounts, felt this very passionately deep connection to Grace Sherwood and her story, and she very much took it upon herself, even though she had no relation. She actually came to the area from Canada. She took it upon herself to exonerate and honor Grace Sherwood. And so it's thanks to her efforts that in [00:50:00] 2006, Governor Tim Kaine did formally quote unquote, restore the good name of Grace Sherwood.It was not a formal pardon because, again, we have no evidence she was actually convicted. And I'm sure there is somebody in the governor's, at the time's, legal department that's like, we cannot issue a formal pardon. We don't have an actual conviction. Also, Virginia doesn't normally pardon posthumously, especially somebody from the colonial era.
Scott O. Moore: And instead, what Tim Kaine did is write a personal letter to Belinda Nash that restored the good name of Grace Sherwood, acknowledged the injustice of her ducking, but that was not the nuances of that were totally lost and everybody said, Virginia just pardoned their witch. And so there was a lot of fanfare, because by this point, Belinda was having annual reenactments of Grace Sherwood's ducking as part of her work with the Historic House. The next year, she built a statue to Grace Sherwood that very much reflected the way Belinda Nash imagined her as this midwife and healer. All of these events [00:51:00] were attended by a lot of local leaders and dignitaries. The mayor of Virginia Beach read the governor's exoneration. City council members were at the statue's unveiling. And Belinda Nash was also responsible or the driving force for getting the church that ascribes itself as the parish church of the whole area for the colonial period to put up a marker that honors Grace Sherwood.
Scott O. Moore: So there are several that were all put up thanks to the efforts of Belinda Nash before she died in 2016. And also, for any of your listeners who are interested, they're all within a walking distance from each other. If you were to drive to where the statue is, the marker is literally like a hundred feet away and the stone that's in the church's front lawn is like a diagonal walk across the street. So all these things are within a walking distance.
Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like she's a very important figure in the local history and to Virginia as [00:52:00] a whole as being what you said is Virginia's witch.
Scott O. Moore: Absolutely. And a lot of this is because she was the first set of records of witchcraft in Virginia that were uncovered back in 1833. My suspicion is, and it's more than a suspicion, it's because of the name Witch Duck, and to give you a brief sort of analysis of why, if you think about it, nobody has access to records in the 1600s, nobody can go to the county court and read through things for the 1700s, and you don't have newspapers at the time. You don't have books written about it. But what you do have are stories. And you have a name called Witch Duck. And we know from the folklore fieldwork that all it takes is a weird name, a weird place, or something that looks strange, and people will tell stories about it. And so you had this name of Witch Duck, and you had these legends about Witch Duck.
Scott O. Moore: And in 1833, the county clerk of Princess Anne County was hand transcribing all of the earliest colonial records, to make sure they were saved, and he was responsible for [00:53:00] specifically writing out the five pages related to her ducking and sending it to the Virginia Historical Society where it got published, and from that point forward, she was literally Virginia's witch. For the next hundred years, she showed up in literary magazines and things like that. And we know also that from folklorists that have done fieldwork, a student named Betty Oliver was there in the 1960s, and she made the argument that folks around Witch Duck have what she called an ironic pride in Grace Sherwood.
Scott O. Moore: There was also a historic house in the Pungo area that was an old farmhouse, very dilapidated by the 1990s, but everybody said it was Grace Sherwood's house. It was not Grace Sherwood's house, but local legend had that that was her house. And by this point, it was literally collapsing. It also didn't have plumbing or electricity. So it, and you couldn't add them because of where it was located. And so the Fish and Wildlife Service bought the property it was on and they were like, we have this dilapidated farmhouse. And the survey report literally says, I'm loathe [00:54:00] to advocate tearing this house down until we find out if it's Grace Sherwood's. And he goes, because we don't want to offend the quote unquote affection that the area has for her. And she is a very active part. She has, her story has literally been a detail in the book, sculpted, reenacted, quilted, drawn, sketched, performed on the ocean front for tourists. And she's this sort of signal point of what it means to be Virginia Beach. As the area grew and expanded, it became a local legend and a local tradition that old timers could latch onto to, to give them bearing and connection to their community as it changed and newcomers could add to basically help them feel acclimated to their area. And what I would argue is that, ironically, that's perversely more important than the actual history of the woman who lived, because all of this was done without really a strong grasp of who that woman actually was. And so that cultural impact though, [00:55:00] few could have ever assumed that she would have had the cultural resonance that she's had. She certainly couldn't have.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Scott.
Josh Hutchinson: And now Sarah has this week's edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: Here's End Witch Hunts News. The association of women with witchcraft has historically served and continues to function as a mechanism for obscuring truthand designating scapegoats, a normalized practice that extends far beyond the early modern period into our contemporary society around the globe.
Sarah Jack: Witchcraft accusations serve multiple purposes of shifting blame. Not only is it used as an explanation for unexplained misfortune and perceived evil, but also as a socially acceptable veil for crimes perpetrated against women, crimes that warrant thorough investigation. A case in point from the United States is a popular true crime case that's currently getting highlighted by podcasts and documentaries. Occurring merely [00:56:00] five decades ago, in the 1970s, it illustrates the ongoing nature of this issue. The unexplained death of a missing female teenager, while not officially classified as homicide by officials, was emphatically attributed to Satanic sacrifice by officials. It is being reported that there, in fact, was no evidence linked to the occult. This unacceptable narrative has significantly contributed to the case remaining unsolved. At the time of the death, men in multiple positions of power made satanic accusation claims to the public, using the media to spin the web of deception. The intent of this deception is unknown, and her cause of death has remained unknown.
Sarah Jack: The use of witchcraft accusations as a means to adjudicate any victim's right to justice, humanity, and dignity will persist as an accepted societal construct until collective action is taken to eliminate this practice.
Sarah Jack: We call upon you and all [00:57:00] members of society, institutions of justice, and governing bodies to recognize the ongoing harm caused by witch hunt mentality, properly investigate crimes against women without resorting to supernatural assumptions or excuses, implement policies and practices that protect women from baseless accusations, and ensure their access to justice. We stand firm in our commitment to ending witch hunts in all their forms and establishing a society where every individual's humanity and right to justice are respected and protected. We thank you for joining us today and look forward to next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Sarah Jack: And thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt. Join us every week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

October 1, 2024

Salem Witch-Hunt 101 Part 4: Rising Tide

In this gripping episode of Salem Witch Hunt 101, we delve into the pivotal period of March 8-24, 1692, when the Salem witch trials reached a fever pitch. We explore the dramatic escalation of accusations and arrests that rocked Salem Village, including the unexpected cases of respected community members Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse, as well as the shocking arrest of 4-year-old Dorothy Good. The episode begins with the election of new selectmen and constables in Salem, setting the stage for the tumultuous events to come. We then chronicle the return of former Salem Village minister Deodat Lawson and his influential sermon that further inflamed tensions. Listeners will hear detailed accounts of the examinations of Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse, providing chilling insight into the judicial proceedings of the time. Throughout the episode, we discuss the growing role of spectral evidence in the trials and how it shaped the accusations and outcomes. Key moments include Martha Cory’s passionate declaration of innocence, Rebecca Nurse’s heartbreaking plea, and the community’s reaction to the arrest of young Dorothy Good. The episode concludes with an update on End Witch Hunts’ recent activities and a preview of upcoming content. This episode offers a comprehensive look at a crucial turning point in the Salem witch trials, demonstrating how quickly suspicion and fear can escalate into a full-blown crisis. Whether you’re a history buff, a legal scholar, or simply curious about this dark chapter in American history, this episode provides valuable insights and compelling storytelling.

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Follow these helpful links to learn more

Emerson W. Baker, ⁠A Storm of Witchcraft: The Salem Trials and the American Experience ⁠

Mary Beth Norton, ⁠In the Devil’s Snare: The Salem Witchcraft Crisis of 1692⁠

Bernard Rosenthal, editor, ⁠Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt⁠

Marilynne K. Roach, ⁠The Salem Witch Trials: A Day-By-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege⁠

Marilynne K. Roach, ⁠Six Women of Salem: The Untold Story of the Accused and Their Accusers in the Salem Witch Trials⁠

Stacy Schiff, ⁠The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem⁠

⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project ⁠

⁠Witch Hunt Website⁠

⁠Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project⁠

⁠The Salem Witch-Hunt Saga: Beginnings⁠

⁠The Ultimate Introduction to the Salem Witch Trials: Salem Witch-Hunt 101 Part 1⁠

Transcript

[00:00:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast bringing you a detailed, turn-by-turn account of the Salem Witch Hunt. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack. We're back with the fourth installment of our Salem Witch Hunt 101 series, covering the pivotal events of from March 8th through March 24th, 1692.
Josh Hutchinson: In today's episode, we'll explore the dramatic escalation of accusations and arrests that rocked Salem Village during this crucial period.
Sarah Jack: We'll examine the unexpected cases of Martha Cory, Dorothy Good, and Rebecca Nurse, three unusual witchcraft suspects.
Josh Hutchinson: We'll also discuss the return of former Salem Village minister to Salem Village and analyze his influential sermon and eyewitness account of the unfolding events.
Sarah Jack: As we walk you through these events, you'll gain insight into how quickly suspicions spread and how the legal machinery of the witch trials began to gather momentum.
Josh Hutchinson: We'll break down the examinations, the testimonies, and the growing atmosphere of fear and [00:01:00] paranoia that gripped the community.
Sarah Jack: So join us as we continue our in depth exploration of one of history's most infamous witch hunts, piecing together the complex tapestry of events that led to the Salem Witch Trials. Let's dive in and uncover the stories behind the accusations, the hidden tensions within the community, and the fateful decisions that set the stage for the tragedy to come.
Josh Hutchinson: Previously in our Salem Witch Hunt 101 series, we've introduced the witch hunt and discussed events up to March 7th, 1692.
Sarah Jack: In the first episode in the series, we presented a broad overview of the Salem Witch Hunt, addressing many of the key events
Josh Hutchinson: and people involved, as well as the reasons behind the crisis. In part two, we focused on the events of February, 1692 as residents of Salem Village began to consider that there was witchcraft in their midst.
Sarah Jack: In the third episode, we covered February 29th through March 7th, 1692,from the arrest of Tituba , Sarah Good, and Sarah Osburn,through their [00:02:00] interrogations and jailings.
Josh Hutchinson: Today, in part four, we follow the cases against church member Martha Cory, baby girl Dorothy Good, and pious grandmother Rebecca Nurse.
Sarah Jack: These cases are captivating, so let's join the action on March 8th, 1692.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 8th, at Salem's town meeting, new selectmen and constables were elected.
Sarah Jack: The new selectmen included future witchcraft suspect Philip English and John Higginson Jr., the son of Salem's senior minister. Along with Salem Village's Israel Porter and Daniel Andrew.
Josh Hutchinson: The newly elected constables included John Putnam Jr. and Jonathan Putnam of Salem Village, two cousins of Sergeant Thomas Putnam.
Sarah Jack: The next day, in Boston, jailer John Arnold bought chains for Sarah Osborn and Sarah Good for 14 shillings.
Josh Hutchinson: Chains were believed to have the power to stop a witch's specter from roaming. And the cost of the chains was added to each accused individual's jail bill, which they would have to pay to [00:03:00] be released if they were acquitted or the charges were dropped.
Sarah Jack: The two Sarahs would be locked in these chains until their deaths months later.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 11th, John Hale and other local ministers attended a fast at the Salem Village Parsonage.
Sarah Jack: Robert Calef later wrote that the afflicted persons were, for the most part, silent, but after any one prayer was ended, they would act and speak strangely and ridiculously, yet were such as had been well educated and of good behavior, the one, a girl of eleven or twelve years old, would sometimes seem to be in a convulsive fit, her limbs being twisted several ways and very stiff, but presently her fit would be over.
Josh Hutchinson: On an unknown date in March, perhaps shortly after this fast, Samuel Parris sent his daughter Betty to stay with his kinsman, Stephen Sewell, the brother of future Salem Witch Trials Judge Samuel Sewell.
Sarah Jack: While staying in Salem Town, separated from the other afflicted persons, Betty's condition appears to improve, and after March, she never [00:04:00] takes part in any further courtroom proceedings or is named as an afflicted person in any arrest warrant or testimony.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 12th, Ann Putnam Jr. was purportedly attacked by Martha Cory's specter.
Sarah Jack: Martha was the wife of Giles Cory. Her maiden name is unknown, but her first husband was Henry Rich, and the two had a son named Thomas. While married to Henry, Martha had a second son, Ben, with another man.
Josh Hutchinson: Martha was accepted as a full member of the Salem Village Church on April 27th, 1690.
Sarah Jack: Which was coincidentally the same day that a certain Mary Sibley was accepted into the church.
Josh Hutchinson: Ezekiel Cheever and Edward Putnam asked Ann Jr. what clothes Martha Cory's specter wore. She told them she was blind and could not see what the supposed witch had on.
Sarah Jack: Cheever and Putnam went to Martha Cory's house, where Martha told them she knew people were talking about her and denied being a witch. She then asked if Ann Jr. had described her clothes.
Josh Hutchinson: [00:05:00] The two men took this question to have come from diabolical knowledge. How else could Martha know what they had asked Ann?
Sarah Jack: Elsewhere in Salem, Martha Cory's specter supposedly attacked Mary Warren at the home of Elizabeth and John Procter.
Josh Hutchinson: On May 12th, Mary Warren would testify that when she was first afflicted by Martha Cory, she reached out for Martha's specter but instead pulled John Procter into her lap.
Sarah Jack: When this happened, John Procter said, "it is nobody, but it is my shadow that you see."
Josh Hutchinson: Mary again reached for the spectral Cory, but instead pulled the shadow figure back into her lap.
Sarah Jack: John Procter said, "I see there is no heed to any of your talkings, for you are all possessed with the devil, for it is nothing but my shape."
Josh Hutchinson: Mary also said she had seen Martha Cory at the Procter house in person, and Martha told Mary that "she would be condemned for a witch as well as she herself. And she said that the children would cry out and bring out all."
Sarah Jack: [00:06:00] On Sunday, March 13th, during worship service in Salem village, Bethshua Pope, an aunt of Benjamin Franklin was allegedly afflicted by specters and was temporarily unable to see.
Josh Hutchinson: Later, Ann Putnam Jr. was visited by an unknown specter at home. She thought she sort of knew the person from seeing her at worship services, and she could just about picture where this woman sat in the meeting house, but she didn't know her name until either her mother or her maid, Mercy Lewis, suggested it was Rebecca Nurse.
Sarah Jack: Like Martha Cory, Rebecca Towne Nurse was a church member. However, she kept her membership in the Salem Town church and never joined the village, though she usually worshipped there. She was noted for her devotion.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 14th, Martha Cory and Elizabeth Procter's shapes supposedly attacked Abigail Williams, niece of village minister Samuel Parris.
Sarah Jack: In the visible world, Thomas Putnam invited Martha Cory to visit Ann Jr. in person. When Martha entered the Putnam house, Ann Jr. had a [00:07:00] fit, contorted into strange positions, and collapsed.
Josh Hutchinson: Ann Jr. cried out against Martha for causing her affliction, but then "her tongue thrust forward, her teeth clamped down, and she was unable to speak."
Sarah Jack: When she regained control of her mouth, Ann Jr. told Martha she saw a yellow bird sucking between her forefinger and her middle finger.
Josh Hutchinson: Ann Jr. claimed Martha was the specter that had covered Bethshua Pope's eyes during the meeting the day before.
Sarah Jack: Ann Jr. 's hands then got stuck in her own eyes and could not be removed for some time.
Josh Hutchinson: Then Ann Jr. had a twisted vision of the invisible world, where she saw a man being roasted in her parents' hearth, with Martha Cory turning the spit.
Sarah Jack: Mercy Lewis, the Putnam's maid, grabbed a stick and struck where Ann said the specter was. The vision went away for a moment.
Josh Hutchinson: Mercy had been orphaned in King William's War and had previously witnessed the killings of most of her extended family as a very young girl during King Philip's War.
Sarah Jack: Her family lived on the [00:08:00] frontier in the vulnerable settlement of Falmouth located in Maine on Casco Bay, where the city of Portland now stands.
Josh Hutchinson: Following each of these wars, Mercy relocated to Essex County, Massachusetts. After her parents were killed, she spent some time in Beverly before taking a position as maid for Thomas and Ann Putnam in Salem Village.
Sarah Jack: Mercy's sister Priscilla had married a Putnam neighbor, Henry Kinney, Jr.
Sarah Jack: When Ann's vision came back, Mercy struck at the specter again. Ann cried out, "do not if you love yourself! "And Mercy shrieked, as Ann said Martha's specter clubbed her with an iron rod. Mercy claimed to see shadowy female figures in the room and said they were trying to get her to write in the devil's book.
Josh Hutchinson: As the real Martha Cory left the Putnam house, Mercy Lewis succumbed to fits so violent it took three men to restrain her.
Sarah Jack: Around 11 o'clock that night, while Mercy sat in a chair before the hearth, the chair creeped forward toward the fire.[00:09:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Two men had to grab the chair to prevent Mercy, who couldn't get up, from being burned.
Sarah Jack: But they couldn't stop the chair until Edward Putnam jumped in front and lifted Mercy's feet.
Josh Hutchinson: Elsewhere in Salem, Giles Cory's ox and cat were strangely afflicted but later recovered.
Sarah Jack: On March 15th, Martha Cory's shape allegedly afflicted Elizabeth Hubbard.
Josh Hutchinson: And Rebecca Nurse allegedly attacked Abigail Williams spectrally.
Sarah Jack: Ipswich's Mary Fuller and Marjorie Thorne were afflicted, allegedly by Rachel Clinton, who turned up at the James Fuller Jr. house at this moment.
Josh Hutchinson: Rachel was a child-free divorcee who had been rumored to be a witch for years.
Sarah Jack: At the Fuller house, she told them she was there to hear their lies about her.
Josh Hutchinson: Suddenly, Joseph Fuller ran in, exclaiming that his sister Betty was dead. Rachel Clinton ran out, and James Fuller Sr. was unable to see her when he tried to follow.
Sarah Jack: As it turned out, Betty Fuller had passed out and would recover [00:10:00] after three to four hours of unconsciousness.
Josh Hutchinson: When she came around, Betty said she'd seen something so frightening that it had made her turn on the spot and run, but she wasn't quick enough and whatever she saw knocked her down.
Sarah Jack: On March 18th, Ann Putnam Sr. reportedly wrestled with Rebecca Nurse's specter for two hours.
Josh Hutchinson: The next day, Ann Putnam Sr. was allegedly assailed by the specters of Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse because she refused to join their ranks.
Sarah Jack: Henry Kinney and Edward Putnam filed a witchcraft complaint against Martha Cory and magistrates issued a warrant for her arrest. It is unclear which Henry Kinney was involved, father or son.
Josh Hutchinson: The complaint alleged that Martha had afflicted Ann Putnam Sr., Ann Putnam Jr., Abigail Williams, Elizabeth Hubbard, and Mercy Lewis, sister-in-law of Henry Kinney Jr.
Sarah Jack: The warrant issued by John Hathorne and Jonathan Corwin instructed Marshal George Herrick to arrest Martha and take her to Ingersoll's Tavern in Salem Village on Monday, March 21st.
Josh Hutchinson: Also on March 19th, [00:11:00] former Salem Village minister Deodat Lawson returned to the village. Tituba had claimed that his wife and his child were killed by maleficium.
Sarah Jack: After Deodat Lawson checked into a room at Ingersoll's, Mary Walcott, the daughter of near neighbor Captain Jonathan Walcott, called upon him and claimed to be bitten on the wrist.
Josh Hutchinson: In the candlelight, Lawson observed a set of teeth marks.
Sarah Jack: In the beginning of the evening, Lawson visited the parsonage nearby Ingersolls.
Josh Hutchinson: Abigail Williams ran back and forth across the room with her arms held high and flapping like a bird. She said, "whish, whish, whish," as she virtually flew about the home.
Sarah Jack: She stopped suddenly and declared that she saw the specter of Rebecca Nurse before her. Nobody else could see the specter, which proffered the devil's book.
Josh Hutchinson: Abigail said, "I won't, I won't, I won't take it. I do not know what book it is. I'm sure it's none of God's book. It is the devil's book for ought I know."
Sarah Jack: Across town, when Giles Cory went to prayer before bed, he was hindered by some [00:12:00] unseen force. As his wife approached, his lips loosened and he was able to say his prayers.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 20th, Deodat Lawson stood in for Samuel Parris to lead Sunday services, which were interrupted by the afflicted persons.
Sarah Jack: As Lawson prepared to read the text introducing his sermon, Abigail Williams said, "now stand up and name your text." Lawson read the text, and Abigail asserted, "it is a long text."
Josh Hutchinson: Lawson began his sermon. Soon, Bethshua Pope said, "now there is enough of that."
Sarah Jack: Abigail Williams claimed Martha Cory's specter left her body and sat on a beam with her yellow bird. The bird alighted on Lawson's hat, which hung on a peg, but Abigail was silenced by neighbors.
Josh Hutchinson: In the afternoon, when Lawson referred to his doctrine, Abigail said, "I know no doctrine you had. If you did name one, I have forgot it."
Sarah Jack: On March 21st, Joseph Herrick arrested Martha Cory. During the arrest, Herrick spotted a strange ointment in Martha's [00:13:00] house.
Josh Hutchinson: Herrick asked Martha about it, and she told him she got the recipe from future witch judge Major Bartholomew Gedney of Salem.
Sarah Jack: Constable Herrick took Martha to Ingersoll's Tavern, where magistrates were preparing for her interrogation.
Josh Hutchinson: Reverend Nicholas Noyes opened the hearing with prayer, and the very biased Samuel Parris was appointed to record the interrogation.
Sarah Jack: Hathorne began questioning Martha.
Josh Hutchinson: You are now in the hands of authority. Tell me now why you have hurt these persons.
Sarah Jack: I do not.
Josh Hutchinson: Who doth?
Sarah Jack: Pray give me leave to go to prayer.
Josh Hutchinson: We do not sin for you to go to prayer, but tell me why you hurt these.
Sarah Jack: I am an innocent person. I never had to do with witchcraft since I was born. I am a gospel woman.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not you see these complain of you?
Sarah Jack: The Lord open the eyes of the magistrates and ministers. The Lord show his power to discover the guilty.
Josh Hutchinson: Tell us who hurts these children.
Sarah Jack: I do not know. [00:14:00]
Josh Hutchinson: If you be guilty of this fact, do you think you can hide it?
Sarah Jack: The Lord knows.
Josh Hutchinson: Well, tell us what you know of this matter.
Sarah Jack: Why, I am a gospel woman, and do you think I can have to do with witchcraft too?
Josh Hutchinson: How could you tell then that the child was bid to observe what clothes you wore when some came to speak with you?
Sarah Jack: Cheevers interrupted her and bid her not begin with a lie. And so Edward Putnam declared the matter.
Josh Hutchinson: Who told you that?
Sarah Jack: He said, the child said.
Josh Hutchinson: Ezekiel Cheever said, "you speak falsely."
Sarah Jack: Then Edward Putnam read again.
Josh Hutchinson: And Hathorne asked, "why did you ask if the children told what clothes you wore?"
Sarah Jack: My husband told me the others told.
Josh Hutchinson: Who told you about the clothes? Why did you ask that question?
Sarah Jack: Because I heard the children told what clothes the other wore.
Josh Hutchinson: Goodman Cory, did you tell her?
Sarah Jack: The old man denied that he told her so.
Josh Hutchinson: Did you not say your husband told you so?
Sarah Jack: She sighed. [00:15:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Who hurts these children? Now look upon them.
Sarah Jack: I cannot help it.
Josh Hutchinson: Did you not say you would tell the truth why you asked that question? How came you to the knowledge?
Sarah Jack: I did but ask.
Josh Hutchinson: You dare thus to lie in all this assembly? You are now before authority. I expect the truth. You promised it. Speak now and tell who told you what clothes.
Sarah Jack: Nobody.
Josh Hutchinson: How came you to know that the children would be examined on what clothes you wore?
Sarah Jack: Because I thought the child was wiser than anybody if she knew.
Josh Hutchinson: Give an answer. You said your husband told you.
Sarah Jack: He told me the children said I afflicted them.
Josh Hutchinson: How do you know what they came for? Answer me this truly. Will you say how you came to know what they came for?
Sarah Jack: I had heard speech that the children said I troubled them and I thought that they might come to examine.
Josh Hutchinson: But how did you know it?
Sarah Jack: I thought they did.
Josh Hutchinson: Did not you say you would tell the truth? Who told you what they came for?
Sarah Jack: Nobody.
Josh Hutchinson: How did [00:16:00] you know?
Sarah Jack: I did think so.
Josh Hutchinson: But you said you knew so.
Sarah Jack: A child says, there is a man whispering in her ear.
Josh Hutchinson: What did he say to you?
Sarah Jack: We must not believe all that these distracted children say.
Josh Hutchinson: Cannot you tell what that man whispered?
Sarah Jack: I saw nobody.
Josh Hutchinson: But did not you hear?
Sarah Jack: No.
Josh Hutchinson: If you expect mercy of God, you must look for it in God's way by confession. Do you think to find mercy by aggravating your sins?
Sarah Jack: A true thing.
Josh Hutchinson: Look for it then in God's way.
Sarah Jack: So I do.
Josh Hutchinson: Give glory to God and confess then.
Sarah Jack: But I cannot confess.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not you see how these afflicted do charge you?
Sarah Jack: We must not believe distracted persons.
Josh Hutchinson: Who do you improve to hurt them?
Sarah Jack: I improved none.
Josh Hutchinson: Did not you say our eyes were blinded, you would open them?
Sarah Jack: Yes, to accuse the innocent.
Josh Hutchinson: Why cannot the girl stand before you?
Sarah Jack: I do not know.
Josh Hutchinson: What did you mean by that? [00:17:00]
Sarah Jack: I saw them fall down.
Josh Hutchinson: It seems to be an insulting speech as if they could not stand before you.
Sarah Jack: They cannot stand before others.
Josh Hutchinson: You said they cannot stand before you. Tell me what was that turning upon the spit by you?
Sarah Jack: You believe the children that are distracted. I saw no spit.
Josh Hutchinson: Here are more than two that accuse you for witchcraft. What do you say?
Sarah Jack: I am innocent.
Sarah Jack: Then Mr. Hathorne read further of Crossley's evidence.
Josh Hutchinson: What did you mean by that the devil could not stand before you?
Sarah Jack: She denied it.
Josh Hutchinson: Three or four sober witnesses confirmed it.
Sarah Jack: What could I do? Many rise up against me.
Josh Hutchinson: Why confess?
Sarah Jack: So I would, if I were guilty.
Josh Hutchinson: Here are sober persons? What do you say to them? You are a gospel woman. Will you lie?
Josh Hutchinson: Abigail cried out, "next Sabbath is sacrament day, but she shall not come there."
Sarah Jack: I do not care.
Josh Hutchinson: You charge these children with distraction. It [00:18:00] is a note of distraction when persons vary in a minute, but these fix upon you. This is not the matter of distraction.
Sarah Jack: When all are against me, what can I help it?
Josh Hutchinson: Now tell me the truth, will you? Why did you say the magistrates' and ministers' eyes are blinded and you would open them?
Sarah Jack: She laughed and denied it.
Josh Hutchinson: Now tell us how we shall know who doth hurt these if you do not.
Sarah Jack: Can an innocent person be guilty?
Josh Hutchinson: Do you deny these words?
Sarah Jack: Yes.
Josh Hutchinson: Tell us who hurts these. We came to be a terror to evildoers. You say you would open our eyes, we are blind.
Sarah Jack: If you say I am a witch.
Josh Hutchinson: You said you would show us.
Sarah Jack: She denied it.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do you not now show us?
Sarah Jack: I cannot tell. I do not know.
Josh Hutchinson: What did you strike the maid at Mr. Thomas Putnam's with?
Sarah Jack: I never struck her in my life.
Josh Hutchinson: Who are two that see you strike her with an iron rod?
Sarah Jack: I had no hand in it.
Josh Hutchinson: Who had? Do you believe [00:19:00] these children are bewitched?
Sarah Jack: They may, for aught I know. I have no hand in it.
Josh Hutchinson: You say you are no witch. Maybe you mean you never covenanted with the devil. Did you never deal with any familiar?
Sarah Jack: No, never.
Josh Hutchinson: What bird was that the children spoke of?
Sarah Jack: Then witnesses spoke.
Josh Hutchinson: What bird was it?
Sarah Jack: I know no bird.
Josh Hutchinson: It may be you have engaged. You will not confess, but God knows.
Sarah Jack: So he doth.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you believe you shall go unpunished?
Sarah Jack: I have nothing to do with witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: Why was you not willing your husband should come to the former session here?
Sarah Jack: But he came for all.
Josh Hutchinson: Did not you take the saddle off?
Sarah Jack: I did not know what it was for.
Josh Hutchinson: Did you not know what it was for?
Sarah Jack: I did not know that it would be to any benefit.
Josh Hutchinson: Did you not say you would open our eyes? Why do you not?
Sarah Jack: I never thought of a witch.
Josh Hutchinson: Is it a laughing matter to see these afflicted persons?
Sarah Jack: She denied it.
Josh Hutchinson: Several prove it. [00:20:00]
Sarah Jack: Ye are all against me, and I cannot help it.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not you believe there are witches in the country?
Sarah Jack: I do not know that there is any.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not you know that Tituba confessed it?
Sarah Jack: I did not hear her speak.
Josh Hutchinson: I find you will own nothing without several witnesses, and yet you will deny for all.
Sarah Jack: It was noted when she bit her lip, several of the afflicted were bitten. When she was urged upon it, that she bit her lip, saith she, "what harm is there in it?"
Josh Hutchinson: What do you say to all these things that are apparent?
Sarah Jack: If you will all go hang me, how can I help it?
Josh Hutchinson: Were you to serve the devil ten years? Tell how many?
Sarah Jack: She laughed.
Josh Hutchinson: The children cried there was a yellow bird with her.
Sarah Jack: When Mr. Hathorne asked her about it, she laughed. When her hands were at liberty, the afflicted persons were pinched.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do not you tell how the devil comes in your shape and hurts these? You said you would.
Sarah Jack: How can I know how?
Josh Hutchinson: Why did you say you would show us?
Sarah Jack: [00:21:00] She laughed again.
Josh Hutchinson: What book is that you would have these children write in?
Sarah Jack: What book? Where should I have a book? I showed them none, nor have none, nor brought none.
Sarah Jack: The afflicted cried out there was a man whispering in her ears.
Josh Hutchinson: What book did you carry to Mary Walcott?
Sarah Jack: I carried none. If the devil appears in my shape.
Sarah Jack: Then Needham said that Parker some time ago thought this woman was a witch.
Josh Hutchinson: Who is your god?
Sarah Jack: The god that made me.
Josh Hutchinson: Who
Sarah Jack: is that God?
Sarah Jack: The God that made me.
Josh Hutchinson: What is his name?
Sarah Jack: Jehovah.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you know any other name?
Sarah Jack: God Almighty.
Josh Hutchinson: Doth he tell you that you pray to that he is God Almighty?
Sarah Jack: Who do I worship but the God that made me?
Josh Hutchinson: How many gods are there?
Sarah Jack: One.
Josh Hutchinson: How many persons?
Sarah Jack: Three.
Josh Hutchinson: Cannot you say so, there is one god in three blessed persons?
Sarah Jack: Then she was troubled.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not you see these children and women [00:22:00] are rational and sober as their neighbors when your hands are fastened?
Sarah Jack: Immediately they were seized with fits, and the standers by said she was squeezing her fingers, her hands being eased by them that held them on purpose for trial. Quickly after, the marshal said, she hath bit her lip, and immediately the afflicted were in an uproar.
Sarah Jack: Why do you hurt these, or who doth? She denied any hand in it.
Josh Hutchinson: Why did you say, if you were a witch, you should have no pardon?
Sarah Jack: Because I am a woman.
Josh Hutchinson: After Martha's initial interrogation, Ezekiel Cheever, Edward Putnam, Elizabeth Hubbard, Samuel Parris, Thomas Putnam, and Nathaniel Ingersoll were deposed against her.
Sarah Jack: Ezekiel Cheever and Edward Putnam described the events of March 12th, when they had confronted Martha Cory at her home.
Josh Hutchinson: Edward Putnam testified about Martha's March 14th visit to the Thomas Putnam family.
Sarah Jack: Elizabeth Hubbard said Martha had afflicted her many times since March 15th. She said, "I believe in my heart that Martha Cory [00:23:00] is a dreadful witch and that she hath very often afflicted and tormented me."
Josh Hutchinson: Samuel Parris, Nathaniel Ingersoll, and Thomas Putnam described how the afflicted were tormented during Martha's examination.
Sarah Jack: After the examination, Marshal Herrick and the magistrates dined and fed their horses at Ingersoll's, racking up a bill of four shillings and sixpence. Then they took Martha Cory to Salem, where Marshal Herrick secured her in jail.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 22nd, Rebecca Nurse's Shape allegedly assaulted Ann Putnam Sr. while wearing nothing but her shift and nightcap.
Sarah Jack: The Nurse specter offered Ann a little red book, but Ann refused to sign and quoted scripture at the specter.
Josh Hutchinson: The specter threatened to tear Ann's soul from her body, but yielded after another two hour battle and left .
Sarah Jack: Around this time in March, Peter Cloyce, Daniel Andrew, and Elizabeth and Israel Porter, visited Rebecca Nurse, who had been in bed for around a week.
Josh Hutchinson: After Rebecca expressed concern for the afflicted, whom she regretted not [00:24:00] visiting but couldn't, the visitors informed her that she too was being accused.
Sarah Jack: Once Rebecca recovered from the shock, she said, "well, as to this thing, I am as innocent as the child unborn. But surely, what sin hath God found out in me unrepentant of, that he should lay such an affliction upon me in my old age?"
Josh Hutchinson: On March 23rd, Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse's specters reportedly afflicted Ann Putnam Sr. again.
Sarah Jack: Deodat Lawson visited and found Ann in bed, where she was getting over a fit.
Josh Hutchinson: Lawson prayed over Ann.
Sarah Jack: At some point in the prayer, Ann seemed to fall asleep. Thomas Putnam took her in his arms and found her to be stiff as a board.
Josh Hutchinson: He tried to sit her up on his lap, and she eventually had another fit. Her arms and legs jerked about as she argued with the specter of Rebecca Nurse again.
Sarah Jack: That day, Jonathan and Edward Putnam filed complaints against young Dorothy Good and aged Rebecca Nurse.
Josh Hutchinson: The magistrates issued [00:25:00] arrest warrants for Dorothy and Rebecca.
Sarah Jack: Rebecca's warrant stated that she was wanted for allegedly bewitching Ann Carr Putnam and her daughter, Ann Putnam Jr.
Josh Hutchinson: Dorothy's warrant did not specifically list any victims or even what form of witchcraft she'd been accused of, but it was likely given to Marshal George Herrick at the same time as Rebecca's warrant.
Sarah Jack: To the northeast, Captain John Alden traveled to St. John, Canada to ransom captives, including his own son. His attempt failed, and his son and others were moved to Quebec.
Josh Hutchinson: On March 24th, constables arrested Dorothy Good and Rebecca Nurse. They took the girl and the older woman to Ingersoll's Tavern in Salem Village.
Sarah Jack: There, magistrates John Hathorn and Jonathan Corwin interrogated Rebecca Nurse and Dorothy Good.
Josh Hutchinson: Reverend John Hale of Beverly gave the invocation and Samuel Parris again recorded the proceedings through his biased lens.
Sarah Jack: Hathorne began with a question to an afflicted person.
Josh Hutchinson: What do you [00:26:00] say? Have you seen this woman hurt you?
Sarah Jack: Yes, she beat me this morning.
Josh Hutchinson: Abigail, have you been hurt by this woman?
Sarah Jack: Yes,
Sarah Jack: Ann Putnam,in a grievous fit, cried out that she hurt her.
Josh Hutchinson: Goody Nurse, here are two, Ann Putnam, the child, and Abigail Williams, complain of your hurting them. What do you say to it?
Sarah Jack: I can say, before my eternal father, I am innocent, and God will clear my innocency.
Josh Hutchinson: Here is never a one in the assembly but desires it. But if you be guilty, pray God discover you.
Sarah Jack: Then Henry Kenny rose up to speak.
Josh Hutchinson: Goodman Kenny, what do you say?
Sarah Jack: Then he entered his complaint and further said that since this Nurse came into the house, he was seized twice with an amazed condition.
Josh Hutchinson: Here are not only these, but here is the wife of Mr. Thomas Putnam, who accuseth you by credible information, and that both of tempting her to iniquity and of greatly hurting her.
Sarah Jack: I am innocent and clear, and have not been able to get out of doors [00:27:00] these eight or nine days.
Josh Hutchinson: Mr. Putnam, give in what you have to say.
Sarah Jack: Then Mr. Edward Putnam gave in his relation.
Josh Hutchinson: Is this true, Goody Nurse?
Sarah Jack: I never afflicted no child, never in my life.
Josh Hutchinson: You see these accuse you. Is it true?
Sarah Jack: No.
Josh Hutchinson: Are you an innocent person relating to this witchcraft?
Sarah Jack: Here, Thomas Putnam's wife cried out, "did you not bring the black man with you? Did you not bid me tempt God and die? How oft have you eat and drunk your own damnation?"
Josh Hutchinson: What do you say to them?
Sarah Jack: Oh Lord, help me. And she spread out her hands, and the afflicted were grievously vexed.
Josh Hutchinson: Do not see what a solemn condition these are in? When your hands are loose, the persons are afflicted.
Sarah Jack: Then Mary Walcott, who often heretofore said she had seen her, but never could say or did say that she either bit or pinched her or hurt her, and also Elizabeth Hubbard under the like circumstances both openly accused her of hurting them. [00:28:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Here are these two grown persons now accuse you. What say you? Do not you see these afflicted persons and hear them accuse you?
Sarah Jack: The Lord knows I have not hurt them. I am an innocent person.
Josh Hutchinson: It is very awful to all to see these agonies,and you an old professor thus charged with contracting with the devil by the effects of it, and yet to see you stand with dry eyes when there are so many wet.
Sarah Jack: You do not know my heart.
Josh Hutchinson: You would do well if you are guilty to confess and give glory to God.
Sarah Jack: I am as clear as the child unborn.
Josh Hutchinson: What uncertainty there may be in apparitions I know not. Yet this with me strikes hard upon you, that you are at this very present charged with familiar spirits.
Josh Hutchinson: This is your bodily person they speak to. They say now they see these familiar spirits come to your bodily person. Now what do you say to that?
Sarah Jack: I have none, sir.
Josh Hutchinson: If you have, confess and give glory to God. I pray God clear you if you be innocent, and if you are guilty, discover you, [00:29:00] and therefore give me an upright answer. Have you any familiarity with these spirits?
Sarah Jack: No, I have none but with God alone.
Josh Hutchinson: How came you sick? For there is an odd discourse of that in the mouths of many.
Sarah Jack: I am sick at my stomach.
Josh Hutchinson: Have you no wounds?
Sarah Jack: I have none but old age.
Josh Hutchinson: You do know whether you are guilty and have familiarity with the devil, and now when you are here present to see such a thing as these testify a black man whispering in your ear and birds about you. What do you say to it?
Sarah Jack: It is all false. I am clear.
Josh Hutchinson: Possibly you may apprehend you are no witch, but have you not been led aside by temptations that way?
Sarah Jack: I have not.
Josh Hutchinson: What a sad thing it is that a church member here, and now another of Salem, should be thus accused and charged.
Sarah Jack: Mrs. Pope fell into a grievous fit and cried out, "a sad thing, sure enough!"
Sarah Jack: And then many more fell into lamentable fits.
Josh Hutchinson: Tell us, have [00:30:00] not you had visible appearances more than what is common in nature?
Sarah Jack: I have none, nor ever had, in my life.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you think these suffered voluntary or involuntary?
Sarah Jack: I cannot tell.
Josh Hutchinson: That is strange. Everyone can judge.
Sarah Jack: I must be silent.
Josh Hutchinson: They accuse you of hurting them, and if you think it is not unwillingly but by design, you must look upon them as murderers.
Sarah Jack: I cannot tell what to think of it.
Sarah Jack: Afterwards, when this was somewhat insisted on, she said, "I do not think so." She did not understand aright what was said.
Josh Hutchinson: Well, then give an answer now. Do you think these suffer against their wills or not?
Sarah Jack: I do not think these suffer against their wills.
Josh Hutchinson: Why did you never visit these afflicted persons?
Sarah Jack: Because I was afraid I should have fits too.
Sarah Jack: Upon the motion of her body, fits followed upon the complainants abundantly and very frequently. [00:31:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Is it not an unaccountable case that when you are examined, these persons are afflicted?
Sarah Jack: I have got nobody to look to but God.,
Sarah Jack: Again upon stirring her hands, the afflicted persons were seized with violent fits of torture.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you believe these afflicted persons are bewitched?
Sarah Jack: I do think they are.
Josh Hutchinson: When this witchcraft came upon the stage, there was no suspicion of Tituba. She professed much love to that child Betty Parris, but it was her apparition did the mischief. Why should not you also be guilty, for your apparition doth hurt also?
Sarah Jack: Would you have me belie myself?
Josh Hutchinson: She held her neck on one side, and accordingly so were the afflicted taken.
Sarah Jack: Then authority requiring it, Samuel Parris read what he had in characters
Sarah Jack: taken from Mr. Thomas Putnam's wife in her fits.
Josh Hutchinson: What do you think of this?
Sarah Jack: I cannot help it. The devil may appear in my shape.
Josh Hutchinson: When the hearing was over, the magistrates [00:32:00] committed Rebecca Nurse to the jail in Salem.
Sarah Jack: Next, the magistrates questioned little Dorothy Good, daughter of a witchcraft suspect, Sarah Good. Deodat Lawson wrote an account.
Josh Hutchinson: "The magistrates and ministers also did inform me that they apprehended a child of Sarah Good and examined it, being between four and five years of age. And as to matter of fact, they did unanimously affirm that when this child did but cast its eye upon the afflicted persons, they were tormented, and they held her head and yet so many as her eye could fix upon were afflicted, which they did several times make careful observation of. The afflicted complained they had often been bitten by this child and produced the marks of a small set of teeth. Accordingly, this was also committed to Salem prison. The child looked hale and well as other children. I saw it at Lieutenant Ingersoll's."
Sarah Jack: Giles Cory made a statement against his wife Martha.
Josh Hutchinson: He recounted the time when he was stopped from praying and the incidents which [00:33:00] befell his ox and cat.
Sarah Jack: He also described a time when Martha knelt at the hearth, as if in prayer, but he did not hear her pray.
Josh Hutchinson: Ann Putnam Jr. and Mary Walcott were deposed against Dorothy Good.
Sarah Jack: Ann said that she was tortured by the apparition of Dorothy Good many times from March 3rd through the child's examination on March 24th.
Josh Hutchinson: Mary Walcott claimed that she was afflicted by Dorothy's apparition from March 21st through 24th.
Sarah Jack: Ann Putnam Sr. was deposed against Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse.
Josh Hutchinson: She gave a day by day account of her torments at the hands of the specters of Martha Cory and Rebecca Nurse for March 18th through 24th.
Sarah Jack: Daniel Andrew, Peter Cloyce, Israel Porter, and Elizabeth Porter made a statement for Rebecca Nurse on the 24th.
Sarah Jack: Later on the 24th, Deodat Lawson delivered the Thursday lecture, which he soon published as Christ's Fidelity the Only Shield Against Satan's Malignity.
Josh Hutchinson: In published form, the book was endorsed by [00:34:00] ministers Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, Charles Morton, James Allen, Samuel Willard, and John Bailey.
Sarah Jack: The key verse Lawson used was Zechariah 3:2. "And the Lord said unto Satan, ' The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem, rebuke thee. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Josh Hutchinson: Lawson stated that his doctrine was "that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only prevalent intercessor with God the Father for the relief of those that are in covenant with him and are made partakers of his special mercy, when they are under the most threatening and amazing distresses that by the rage and malice of Satan they can be exposed unto."
Sarah Jack: Then he put forth six propositions and expounded upon six uses for this verse.
Josh Hutchinson: 1. Satan is the adversary and enemy. He is the original, the fountain of malice, the instigator of all contrariety, malignity, and enmity.
Sarah Jack: 2. [00:35:00] Satan makes it his business to improve all opportunities and advantages, to exercise his malice upon the children of men.
Sarah Jack: He is an indefatigable as well as an implacable enemy.
Josh Hutchinson: Three, the covenant people of God and those that would devote themselves entirely to his service are the special objects of Satan's rage and fury.
Sarah Jack: Four, that in all Satan's malicious designs and operations, he is absolutely bounded and limited by the power and pleasure of the great and everlasting God, the Lord Jehovah.
Josh Hutchinson: Five, that whensoever God hath declared a person or people to be in covenant with him as the objects of his special mercy and favor, he will assuredly and shortly suppress the malice of Satan, however violently engaged against them.
Sarah Jack: 6. The great God doth manage all his designs of mercy to his people under the gospel dispensation in and through the mediator. The very tenure of the gospel covenant is such, and the terms thereof are so methodized as to introduce a [00:36:00] necessity of depending on a mediator. The whole transaction of the gospel covenant betwixt the Great God and fallen Man Is by the Mediator, hence it is on better terms than the Covenant of Works, Hebrews 8:6. Under the new covenant, all addresses to God are by the Mediator, Hebrews 4: 15 and 16, and all communications of grace from God are by the Mediator, John 1:16.
Josh Hutchinson: After stating these six prepositions, Lawson then listed his six uses for the chosen verse.
Sarah Jack: One, let it be for solemn warning and awakening to all of us that are before the Lord at this time and to all other of this whole people who shall come to the knowledge of these direful operations of Satan which the Holy God hath permitted in the midst of us.
Josh Hutchinson: 2. Let it be for deep humiliation to the people of this place, which is in special under the influence of this fearful judgment of God. The Lord doth at this day manage a great controversy with you, to the [00:37:00] astonishment of yourselves and others. You are, therefore, to be deeply humbled, and fit in the dust considering.
Sarah Jack: Three, it is matter of terror, amazement, and astonishment to all such wretched souls, if there be any here in the congregation, and God of His infinite mercy grant that none of you may ever be found such, as have given up their names and souls to the devil, who by covenant, explicit or implicit, have bound themselves to be his slaves and dredges, consenting to be instruments, in whose shapes he may torment and afflict their fellow creatures, even of their own kind, to the amazing and astonishing of the standers by.
Josh Hutchinson: 4. Let it be for caution to all of us that are before the Lord, as ever we would prevail with God, to prevent the spreading of this sore affliction, and to rebuke Satan for us. Let us take heed of siding with, or giving place unto, the Devil.
Sarah Jack: 5. Let it be for exhortation and direction to this whole assembly, and to all [00:38:00] others that shall come to the knowledge of these amazing dispensations, here then give me leave to press those special duties which all persons are concerned to put in practice at such a time as this."
Josh Hutchinson: Six. The sixth and last use is in two words of comfort, to bear up the fainting souls of those that are personally under, or relatively concerned in, these direful operations of the grand enemy of mankind.
Sarah Jack: Lawson wrapped up his sermon with a conclusion.
Josh Hutchinson: He said, "to conclude, the Lord is known by the judgments which he executes in the midst of us. The dispensations of his providence appear to be unsearchable, and his doing pass finding out. He seems to have allowed Satan to afflict many of our people, and that thereupon he has come down in great wrath, threatening the destruction of the bodies,and if the infinite mercy of God prevent not, of the souls of many in this place, yet may we say in the midst of the terrible things which He doth in righteousness. He alone is the [00:39:00] God of our salvation, who represents himself as the savior of all that are in a low and distressed condition, because he is good and his mercy endures forever.
Sarah Jack: Let us then return and repent, rent our hearts and not our garments. Who can tell if the Lord will return in mercy unto us, and by his Spirit lift up a standard against the grand enemy who threatens to come in like a flood among us and overthrow all that is holy and just and good? It is no small comfort to consider that Job's exerciseof patience had its beginning from the Devil, but we have seen the end to be from the Lord, James 5:11, that we also may find by experience the same blessed issue of our present distresses by Satan's malice.
Sarah Jack: Let us repent of every sin that hath been committed, and labor to practice every duty which hath been neglected. And when we are humbled and proved for our good in the latter end, then we shall assuredly and speedily find that the kingly power of our Lord and Savior shall [00:40:00] be magnified in delivering his poor sheep and lambs out of the jaws and paws of the roaring lion.
Josh Hutchinson: Then will Jesus, the blessed anti-type of Joshua, the redeemer and chooser, quell, suppress, and utterly vanquish this adversary of ours with irresistible power and authority, according to our text. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
Sarah Jack: Once Rebecca Nurse and Dorothy Good were jailed, there were a total of six people behind bars for allegedly participating in the Salem Witch Conspiracy.
Josh Hutchinson: Also imprisoned were Martha Cory, Sarah Good, Sarah Osburn, and Tituba.
Sarah Jack: In the next episode in our Salem Witch Hunt 101 series, we will cover the remainder of March and the beginning of April, getting into accusations against Rachel Clinton, Sarah Cloyce, and Elizabeth Procter.
Josh Hutchinson: And now Sarah has End Witch Hunts [00:41:00] News.
Sarah Jack: As we wrap up this episode, we're excited to share some recent developments. End Witch Hunts just completed its first international trip, attending and presenting at two academic conferences outside the United States. This journey was more than just a professional milestone; it was a testament to the global community we've built through this podcast. We had the incredible opportunity to meet 10 of our past podcast guests in person for the first time, plus a rare encounter with Leo Igwe, Director of Advocacy for Alleged Witches. The experience of connecting face to face with these experts, along with several of our dedicated listeners, reinforced the impact of our work.
Sarah Jack: This podcast is unique in delivering firsthand experiences and research from organizations and individuals working directly in communities affected by witch hunts.Our guests bring context and perspective from around the world, offering insights you won't find anywhere else. Our time in England, filled with enriching conversations, has inspired [00:42:00] a wealth of important updates and fascinating content that we can't wait to share with you this fall.
Sarah Jack: We'll be bringing you snippets from our conference presentations on our projects, World Without Witch Hunts, End SARA, and the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project. If you'd like to support our work and help cover the costs of attending these conferences, please consider making a donation. You'll find the link in our show notes.
Sarah Jack: To those who have already contributed, we extend our heartfelt thanks. Your support is crucial in our ongoing efforts to end harmful practicesand witch accusations. Thank you for being part of this critical mission. We'll be back next week with more insights and stories from the front lines of ending witch hunts. Until then, stay informed and stay engaged.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for joining us for this episode.
Sarah Jack: Be sure to join us again next week.
Josh Hutchinson: And if you haven't already done so, check out our extensive back catalog of episodes.
Sarah Jack: We have now done 28 episodes on the Salem Witch Trials. A link to these episodes is [00:43:00] included in the show notes.
Josh Hutchinson: And we will continue to bring you the best witch trial content.
Sarah Jack: Subscribe to our newsletter and always know what's coming up. The link is in the show notes.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

September 29, 2024

Tour Salem’s Witch Trial History with Antonio Infante

We’re joined by Antonio Infante, a Salem Witch Trials Historic Tour Guide and author. Antonio shares his journey into becoming a guide, sparked by a personal connection to the Salem witch trials through his ancestor. As he highlights the importance of accurate storytelling, Antonio offers a snapshot look at the Essex National Heritage Area’s historic tour that dispels myths about the trials. This episode also explores broader Massachusetts witch trial history and ongoing efforts for justice for all those wrongfully accused, not just the accused in 1692. He gives us a glimpse into his upcoming book about accused witch Sarah Cloyce, sister of Rebecca Nurse, titled Sober and Civil: Being a true narrative of one Sarah Towne Cloyse, formerly Bridges.

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Links

⁠Donate to Our UK Conference Trip GoFundMe Campaign to speak and learn about ending witch hunts⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project⁠

⁠Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project⁠

⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project⁠

⁠Witch Hunt Website⁠

⁠Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project

Transcript

Tour Salem’s Witch Trial History with Antonio Infante Download

September 29, 2024
Witch Trials and Modern Witchcraft Accusations: Insights from 100 Episodes

In this milestone 100th episode of Witch Hunt Podcast, hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack reflect on their journey of exploring historical witch trials and modern witchcraft accusations. The episode begins with a recap of the podcast’s evolution from its initial focus on early modern witch trials to its current coverage of the ongoing global crisis of witch hunts. The hosts discuss their exploration of historical witch trials in various locations, particularly in New England and Europe, delving into the social, religious, and political factors that contributed to these events. They examine the impact of witch trials on individuals, families, and communities, both historically and in the present day.

The conversation then shifts to efforts to exonerate and memorialize victims of historical witch trials, highlighting the importance of these initiatives for justice and education. A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing modern witch hunts, also known as harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks. The hosts outline the United Nations’ recognition of this issue as a human rights concern and various efforts by governments, NGOs, and grassroots organizations to address the problem. They emphasize the need for a multi-faceted approach to combat these harmful practices, including education, legal reform, community engagement, and challenging harmful beliefs.

Towards the end of the episode, Josh and Sarah announce their upcoming speaking engagements at two academic conferences on witchcraft in England, where they’ll discuss modern witch hunts, exoneration efforts, and their project tracking spiritual and ritual abuse in the United States. This comprehensive episode serves as both a retrospective of the podcast’s journey and a call to action for addressing ongoing issues related to witchcraft accusations worldwide.

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Episode Links:

Wolfgang Behringer, Witches and Witch Hunts: A Global History

Skeletons in the Closet: The Memorialization of George Jacobs Sr. and Rebecca Nurse after the 1692 Witch-Hunt

Donate to End Witch Hunts

End Witch Hunts

The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Transcript

Witch Trials and Modern Witchcraft Accusations_ Insights from 100 Episodes Download

August 14, 2024
World Day Against Witch Hunts

Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast raising awareness of the violent reality of modern witchcraft accusations. Rather than being a relic of the past, witchcraft accusations remain a devastating issue in many parts of the world, leading to violence, ostracization, economic deprivation, mental health crises, and even death.

In recognition of this global crisis, August 10th has been designated World Day Against Witch Hunts. This year’s theme, “Exposing the Witchfinders,” focuses on those who incite violence by suggesting witchcraft as the cause of problems or identifying individuals as witches.

Today’s episode examines the role of witchfinders—individuals exploiting faith and belief for personal gain. We’ll explore who they are, their operations, motivations, and the profound impact they have on their victims. Including key insights in the voices of global advocates who have been guests on our podcast, we invite you to join us as we uncover the stark reality behind witchcraft accusations and advocate for a world free from such violence.

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Helpful Links

Donate: End Witch Hunts UK Advocacy Trip Fund

World Day Against Witch Hunts August 10th

Germain Aid Agency Missio Website

End Witch Hunts

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Witch Hunt Website

Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project

Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

Sorcery National Action Plan

The International Network

Fighting the Wildfire of SARV

Australian National University Wildfire StoryMap Announcement

Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis

BorisGershman.com

Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

Witch-Hunting in European and World History – Ronald Hutton

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

African Witchfinder Documentary 2018

United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8

Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization

Transcript

World Day Against Witch Hunts Download

August 7, 2024
The Intersection of Religion, Politics, and Harmful Practices

In this episode, hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack explore the complex relationships between religion, politics, and harmful practices in India. Joined by experts Arjun Philip George and Giresh Kumar J, they discuss:

1. The persistence of caste-based discrimination across religious lines in India

2. The role of religious texts and traditions in perpetuating gender inequality

3. Challenges in reforming deeply ingrained cultural and religious practices

4. The impact of political leaders and parties on reinforcing or challenging harmful practices

5. The tension between constitutional values and religious beliefs in Indian society

6. The struggle for women’s rights in religious contexts, including the Sabarimala temple controversy

7. The use of religion in politics and its effects on India’s democratic fabric

8. The difficulty of separating harmful practices from mainstream religious beliefs

9. The need for progressive education and individual choice in religious matters

Key topics:

– Caste system

– Gender discrimination

– Secularism in India

– Religious reform

– Constitutional rights vs. religious practices

– Political use of religion

Guests:

– Arjun Philip George: Legal scholar with expertise in violence against women on social media platforms

– Giresh Kumar J: Professor of international human rights and social justice

– Samantha Spence: Associate Professor of International Human Rights and Social Justice

This episode provides a thought-provoking look at how witch hunt mentalities persist in modern forms, particularly through the lens of religious and cultural practices in India.

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Episode Links

Donate: End Witch Hunts UK Advocacy Trip Fund

End Witch Hunts

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Witch Hunt Website

Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project

Learn more about SARA

Transcript

Intersection of Religion, Politics, and Harmful Practices with Arjun Philip George, Giresh Kumar J, and Samantha Spence Download

July 30, 2024
Salem Witch Hunt Saga: The First Arrests

Thank you for joining us for this narrative history of the Salem Witch Trials. This third part of our Salem Witch-Hunt 101 series focuses on the first arrests and interrogations of Sarah Good, Sarah Osburn, and Tituba in late February and early March 1692.

On Witch Hunt, the people and key events are real. The examinations are taken directly from the historical record. The depositions of afflicted persons Elizabeth Hubbard and Ann Putnam Jr. are paraphrased for natural conversation, while the deposition of the adult men Samuel Parris, Thomas Putnam, and Ezekiel Cheever is presented verbatim.

Join us as we spend time in the early moments of the infamous Salem Witch Trials, based on actual words from the historical documents. Whether you’re a history enthusiast or a curious listener, this episode promises to be both informative and enjoyable.

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Helpful Links

Witch-Hunting in European and World History – Ronald Hutton

Donate: End Witch Hunts UK Advocacy Trip Fund

End Witch Hunts

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Witch Hunt Website

Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project

Learn more about SARA

Transcript

Salem Witch Hunt Saga_ The First Arrests Download

July 23, 2024
A Voice of Advocacy: Sashiprava Bindhani of Odisha, India

Sashiprava Bindhani, a human rights advocate and legal expert from Odisha, India, has dedicated her life to raising awareness of witch-hunting and advocating for the protection of vulnerable individuals.

This impactful oral history conversation explores her life of advocating for individuals accused of witchcraft, examining the social ostracism, physical assaults, and the role of policy and legal intervention in protecting the vulnerable and stopping these practices. She shares her professional journey, personal experiences, and significant contributions to human rights. She discusses her work in law, public interest litigation, and efforts in implementing laws against witch branding.

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Visit these links:

Sashiprava Bindhani Blog on Bhamati Ra Swara

Justice for Lakhma

End Witch Hunts

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Witch Hunt Website

Salem Witch-Hunt Education Project

Transcript

A Voice of Advocacy_ Sashiprava Bindhani of Odisha, India Download

July 3, 2024

The Salem Witch-Hunt Saga: Beginnings

Join Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack on the ‘Witch Hunt’ podcast for the second episode of their ‘Salem Witch-Hunt 101’ series. Josh narrates the chilling events of February 1692 in Salem Village, focusing on the strange behaviors of Abigail Williams and Betty Parris that ignited fears of witchcraft. He explores the harsh winter, social tensions, and the reactions of the community, including the infamous ‘witch cake’ and accusations against Sarah Good, Sarah Osborne, and Tituba. In this unique episode, Sarah hears Josh’s account for the first time, providing fresh reactions and questions that enhance the storytelling. The episode concludes with reflections on the motivations behind the Salem Witch Trials, with additional insights from Mary Louise Bingham. Tune in for an engaging retelling of the early days of the Salem Witch Hunt, based on historical records.

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Follow these links for more:

The Sermon Notebook of Samuel of Samuel Parris

The Salem Witch Trials: A Day-By-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege

A Storm of Witchcraft: The Salem Trials and the American Experience

The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem

Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Transcript

[00:00:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast bringing you the most in-depth coverage of the Salem Witch Trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we are excited to present the second episode in the Salem Witch-Hunt 101 series.
Josh Hutchinson: We're taking a different approach to this one. I'll be telling a narrative of the events of early 1692.
Sarah Jack: And I'm hearing this telling of the story for the very first time, just like everyone watching or listening.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I've really kept this one under wraps from you, so I can't wait to hear your reactions to it.
Sarah Jack: I can't wait to hear what you've done with your story.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, thank you. I think it's going to be quite a new experience for everyone.
Sarah Jack: I'm going to have some questions for you.
Josh Hutchinson: I sure hope so. The Salem Witch Hunt had its beginnings long before the trials began. [00:01:00] We discussed the precursors to the witch hunt in our last Salem Witch Hunt 101 episode. Today, we will focus on events in Salem Village in February, 1692.
Sarah Jack: I am excited.
Sarah Jack: Yes, now that we have those things out of the way, we get to dive in to some story.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're going to tell some little stories, um, about big events. In these stories we're going to tell in this series, we'll be recreating several major scenes from the Salem Witch Hunt using the facts that are, we get from the records left behind.
Sarah Jack: The records are the story. What we can build out of what is written is all we have.
Josh Hutchinson: And that's what we're working with tonight. So here comes the story. [00:02:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Scene 1, Salem Village, Massachusetts Bay Colony, February 1692. The girl flitters across the room, chirping like a bird. Abigail Williams, the minister's niece and ward, aged 11, has been acting strangely lately. Perhaps a winter's confinement in a frigid house has given her cabin fever. Maybe she's just restless. A preteen in the boring 17th century, Abigail has been orphaned and lives in the care of her relative, Salem Village Minister Samuel Parris, who is known as her uncle, though the exact relationship is unclear. Parris's daughter Elizabeth, called Betty, is at this moment on all fours under a table, barking like a dog, while alternately complaining of terrible pain. Earlier, she had honked like a goose and soared through the air, all the way across the Parsonage's Great Hall. Nobody had seen her toes touching the ground. They'd all been fixated on the [00:03:00] honking and flapping, which would have been hard to ignore.
Josh Hutchinson: Now Samuel Parris paces the floor, following Abigail, constantly praying as he walks behind her. Maybe the girls are ill, but if they are, what manner of illness causes these antics? Whatever it is, the minister has had enough of it. How can anyone expect him to write each week's sermon in this environment? He abruptly stops following Abigail.
Sarah Jack: Two thoughts popped into my mind. Is this truly the first time Betty has been so silly? I think from what we know of what was permitted for behavior, it's possible.
Josh Hutchinson: It is, I'm sure Betty, she's nine years old and Abigail's 11. They're at very silly ages. So probably, but to this extent, it seems like this was the first [00:04:00] time that they were flapping like geese and barking like dogs and mewing like kittens and everything. Um, So it was quite different and everybody was taken aback by it.
Sarah Jack: The other thing I wondered if it went through the minister's mind, is is this affliction? Like, right away.
Josh Hutchinson: Right. He was in Boston at, in 1688 when Goody Glover was arrested and executed for witchcraft towards the Glover children, who behaved in much the same way that Abigail and Betty are described as behaving. And he would have been fully aware, Cotton Mather had written a book about that. And, uh, Samuel Parris definitely was aware, and presumably his children were also aware of that story.
Josh Hutchinson: And this might be something that they [00:05:00] got afflicted, um, through whatever mechanism, and they had imbibed these stories about affliction. So once somebody told them, "oh, you're afflicted" or something, it just triggered these behaviors from them because this is what they have known and heard all their, their lives.
Sarah Jack: All right.
Josh Hutchinson: "I have to get this sermon done, Elizabeth." He says to his wife, the former Elizabeth Eldridge, "I'm going to Ingersoll's. It'll be quieter there."
Sarah Jack:
Josh Hutchinson: "Quieter at Ingersoll's? Well, I'm sure he'd let you use one of his rooms. "
Josh Hutchinson: The minister goes to his desk and grabs his material and Bible. Looking at the ice just forming atop the ink, he says, "warmer at Ingersoll's, too."
Josh Hutchinson: "Why don't you see if he has any more wood to spare?"
Josh Hutchinson: "He doesn't. He's already given us our share. It's those unregenerate types that are withholding."
Josh Hutchinson: [00:06:00] Samuel Parris strides to the door and steps out, letting the door swing shut hard behind him. Betty jumps, striking her head on the bottom of the table. She rubs the sore and then crawls out from underneath, now whimpering like a scolded puppy. Maybe she and her cousin are ill, but, strangely, nobody else in the household has been acting anything but normal. Why has the illness not touched Betty's siblings, Thomas and Susannah? Why not Tituba or John? Why not Elizabeth Parris Sr., who seems to always be sick with something or other?
Josh Hutchinson: Maybe the girls have succumbed to the pressures facing the Parris household this long, cold winter. They received a fraction of the firewood they need to live comfortably, and Samuel often finds himself writing his sermons at Ingersoll's or sometimes the nearby Walcott home or even Thomas Putnam's house. With the minister under intense pressure, [00:07:00] that may have rubbed off on some of the children.
Sarah Jack: It's really important to recognize how brutal that cold was on the Parris household. I mean, you don't feel good when you're cold, and he's writing these sermons that are a remedy to, for his people. They have to hear what he's saying from God's word so that they're headed in the right direction. I just wonder if, if, you know, we say fire and brimstone about some of these messages when he was actually experiencing cold and ice. You just wonder, you know, how much he was taking out on his parishioners because he was so mad that they didn't want to keep him warm.[00:08:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there was a point where he said, or wrote down in his sermon notebook, I believe, that he would have, he was going to run out of firewood completely the next day. And so he was trying to get, desperately all the time to get more people to give him more, but of course they need their own firewood for the winter. Um, it's the coldest years of the Little Ice Age. And it's Massachusetts, so it's just brutal, uh, going through this winter. I can hardly imagine living in a house where you're all just like huddled real close because your fire is small and you don't have heat, you know, coming from the central hearth all the way through the house, uh, constantly.
Josh Hutchinson: So I guess they wore a lot of coats.
Sarah Jack: They were just cold. [00:09:00] They were cold.
Josh Hutchinson: They were, it had to have been miserable. And then there's all the stresses facing him. There's other parties in the village who don't want him to be a minister anymore. So he's dealing with that frustration. And I'm sure just the stress level in that household was too much for these girls to bear. Um, I'm surprised that the rest of the household didn't have some kind of reaction to that.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. I was just thinking, there's really no evidence of a reaction of, "hey, cut it out, this is unacceptable." They just reacted to the behavior.
Josh Hutchinson: Right.
Sarah Jack: Although there is somebody who did react to somebody's, that's later in the story. John [00:10:00] Proctor. Isn't he the one that just tells her to cut it out?
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Yeah. He sits her at her spinning wheel and threatens to thrash the devil out of her if she keeps behaving, because he really believes that she's acting and just playing around and it's going to be dangerous and people are going to get hurt.
Sarah Jack: Yeah,
Josh Hutchinson: He recognizes that pretty early. Yeah. As soon as people started getting arrested, John Proctor knew, um, this is going bad. So.
Josh Hutchinson: So, the minister has prayed for weeks, but nothing in the girls' conditions has improved. They still contort into strange shapes, impossible to be caused by any known natural illness. They writhe in agony and cry out of pain.
Josh Hutchinson: Samuel knows many of the villagers have turned their backs on him. But this seems more sinister, more diabolical. Or [00:11:00] is it God's judgment on him? No, it can't be personally against him. He's doing the best anyone can. Maybe it is to address the sins of the community collectively.
Josh Hutchinson: If praying isn't working, maybe a fast will be necessary. He will preach another impassioned sermon on Sunday, reminding his congregation of the constant presence of the devil, who lurks about the village, as he does any place where such a beacon of godliness as Samuel Parris dwells. Monday, Samuel will hold a private fast.
Josh Hutchinson: It is the devil who has poisoned men's minds against Samuel's ministry, and if there were ever a time for evil to gain a foothold in the village, he knows it is in this period of division. Samuel has to keep up his sermons and has to warn the villagers before it is too late. He will have to alert area pastors too, but maybe it's time for them to come over anyways to hold a significant fast.
Sarah Jack: [00:12:00] Samuel.
Josh Hutchinson: Alas, the cold numbs Samuel Parris's mind as he walks the short distance to Ingersoll's next door. What is he trying to get at in his sermons this week again? Samuel pulls the front door open and steps inside Nathaniel Ingersoll's Ordinary, a tavern that does quite well for itself with its central location in the village and its close proximity to the meeting house. Come Sunday, this place will be absolutely packed between the two services.
Josh Hutchinson: Nathaniel Ingersoll stands at the back of the room, discussing something with his adopted son, Benjamin Hutchinson, who helps out around the tavern. Samuel closes the door behind himself, and the two other men break off their conversation.
Josh Hutchinson: Nathaniel says, Good day, Samuel.
Josh Hutchinson: And Benjamin says, Good morning, Reverend, will you be needing a room again?
Josh Hutchinson: I would be indebted to you.
Josh Hutchinson: Nathaniel says, think [00:13:00] nothing of it, room's just sitting there unoccupied.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Samuel says, there's a ruckus at the house again.
Josh Hutchinson: I figured as much, Nathaniel says.
Josh Hutchinson: Benjamin leads Samuel upstairs and opens a door. Samuel enters and closes the door behind himself. He will be in here all day, except for meals and trips to the privy out in the yard.
Josh Hutchinson: On Sunday morning, with his sermon written, Samuel Parris leads his family the short distance from their home to the meeting house. Entering, they once again find this building even colder than the house they left. There's no fireplace here. There's no grand hearth for cooking and warming. Measuring a modest 34 by 28 feet, the wooden meeting house features a gallery to help fit the many, many people who worship here.
Sarah Jack: And there's a place today that people can visit a replica of the meeting house.[00:14:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. If you go to the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, you get a replica built to the exact dimensions that were recorded in the Salem Village Record Book. It's quite remarkable to go in there and see a pulpit just like the one Samuel Parris would have preached at.
Sarah Jack: I was able to stop by last May, so a year ago, May now, when advocate Dr. Leo Igwe
Sarah Jack: with Advocacy for Alleged Witches was in New England doing a speaking tour and visiting the memorials, and he did his presentation there, standing in front of the pulpit. It was extremely moving to think about what that room symbolizes and, of course, the message today that Leo is giving the world and the work that he's doing to save lives. The other thing that was special to me was [00:15:00] being able to look out of the window at the meeting house and over to the homestead. I just liked looking through that old glass.
Josh Hutchinson: The homestead is such a wonderful place to visit, but getting inside that meeting house for an actual talk was really a great experience.
Sarah Jack: We're so appreciative to the team at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead for hosting him and opening it up to us and, um, all of those who attended.
Sarah Jack: it was very special to, to have him there.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And for you listening, we have done two episodes with Leo Igwe, and I do recommend that you go back and listen to those to hear what's going on in the modern world with witchcraft accusations.
Sarah Jack: The [00:16:00] other thing I wanted to point out is unfortunately we can't, um, go to Ingersoll's. But there is lots of photos and chatter among descendants and locals online about its future.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And we've recently done a bonus episode on "Nathaniel Ingersoll and His Tavern in the Salem Witch Trials" and recommend you go back and take a look at that or listen to that. And there is a very passionate community online that has developed around what the future might hold for that institution there.
Josh Hutchinson: On January 3rd, Samuel had preached that, "Christ having begun a new work, it is the main drift of the devil to pull it all down." Today, February 14th, he will warn the church of the dangers of [00:17:00] division and devilry. " is a woeful piece of our corruption in an evil time when the wicked people and the godly party meet with vexations by and by to lay down divine providence as if God has forsaken the earth and there were no prophet in his service."
Josh Hutchinson: His vitriol is largely directed at those in the village who oppose him. They've challenged his ownership of the parsonage and his role as a minister. The village voted to withhold his pay and firewood, and once Joseph Hutchinson, a village committee member who had donated the land for the meeting house, fenced the building in. Now, for those of you keeping track, Joseph Hutchinson was the birth father of Benjamin Hutchinson, who he'd put in the care of the Ingersolls, who had lost their only daughter. Joseph himself had seven sons and four daughters, so obviously had a kid to spare for the Ingersolls. [00:18:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Today, Parris will also speak of "the present low condition of the church in the midst of its enemies." Non-Christians have inhabited this continent since time immemorial, and now those French Catholics to the north are encroaching again with the aid of their Wabanaki allies.
Josh Hutchinson: Monday morning, Samuel Parris rises well before dawn with the rest of his household. Betty and Abigail persist in their afflictions. Samuel needs medical advice, but first he will turn to the ministers. He sits at his desk and breaks out his writing materials, but the ink has frozen overnight again.
Josh Hutchinson: "Elizabeth," Samuel says, "warm this ink for me."
Josh Hutchinson: She takes the inkwell and places it in a pot, which she hangs over the low fire. In a few minutes, she returns the ink to her husband. The inkwell is warm to his touch. He sets it on his desk and draws ink into his pen.
Josh Hutchinson: "John," Samuel [00:19:00] says, now handing John a paper, "take this letter to Nathaniel's, he needs to send messengers to the local ministers to ask them to meet me here as soon as they all can attend to see the girls."
John takes the note and departs. Samuel and family spend the rest of the day, amidst numerous interruptions by the girls, fasting and praying, but the girls do remain unwell and continue to behave strangely.
Josh Hutchinson: On February 24th, Parris sends John on another errand. This time he is to retrieve Salem Village's only physician, William Griggs, who lives some distance down the road.
Sarah Jack: pulls Samuel aside
Josh Hutchinson: After Griggs examines the girl, he pulls Samuel aside for a conversation. "They're under an evil hand," he says.
Josh Hutchinson: "You're sure it isn't anything medical?"
Josh Hutchinson: Absolutely. This affliction is not natural.
Josh Hutchinson: "Then Satan is after me." [00:20:00]
Josh Hutchinson: "I'm afraid so."
Josh Hutchinson: In the parsonage and around the village, talk turns to witches. Perhaps the girls were bewitched by one of Satan's agents. Christ knew there were devils in his church. On February 25th, Samuel and Elizabeth Parris travel for the Thursday lecture, a weekly event hosted by various neighboring communities on a rotating schedule.
Josh Hutchinson: While they are away, a neighbor, Mary Sibley, stays with the children. Mary Sibley speaks with Tituba and John.
Josh Hutchinson: "Here's what we're going to do," she says. "Tituba, you collect some urine from Betty and Abigail. John, get the rye flour."
Josh Hutchinson: "What do you have in mind?" Tituba asks.
Josh Hutchinson: "We're going to stop a witch."
Josh Hutchinson: "With urine."
Josh Hutchinson: "By baking a special cake, the girl's urine is needed so we can burn off some of the magic that the witch put in them."
Josh Hutchinson: Soon, Tituba collects the urine of the girls, and John retrieves the heavy sack of rye flour, while [00:21:00] Elizabeth gathers the rest of what they'll need. The three adults meet at the hearth and bake the cake, with the girls wailing in agony behind them, contorting again into several bizarre shapes. After John removes the cake from the oven, Mary calls for the family dog, who eagerly devours the morsel. According to English custom, this witch-finding technique will reveal the identity of the woman who has afflicted the girls. Mary isn't exactly sure how, but her own mother taught her to do this. Maybe the witch will be hurt, or maybe she'll turn up at the door.
Sarah Jack: The witch cake is not voodoo.
Josh Hutchinson: The witch cake was English, and Mary Sibley instructed Tituba and John how to bake it, because they hadn't done anything like that before using English [00:22:00] countermagic.
Sarah Jack: How great if that had burned the magic off. What a great quick intervention that would have been.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, if only that had worked, could have spared months and months and months of trials and, um, all those deaths.
Josh Hutchinson: Now, the same day the witch cake is baked, two more village girls become afflicted. Ann Putnam Jr. is the daughter of Parris ally Mr. Thomas Putnam Jr. and Mrs. Ann Carr Putnam. Thomas and the two Anns have made several visits to the parsonage since Betty and Abigail have been ill. And I want to throw in that Thomas Putnam was also a sergeant in the local militia, serving under Lieutenant Nathaniel Ingersoll and Captain Jonathan Walcott, who are [00:23:00] also important characters in the Salem Witch Hunt story.
Josh Hutchinson: Now, another visitor who's taken ill is Elizabeth Hubbard, an orphan teenage girl living with her relatives, the Griggses. She has also visited the parsonage along with the physician, whom she serves as maid. At 17, Hubbard is five years older than Ann Putnam Jr., making her the oldest person yet afflicted and the first of legal age to be able to bear witness in court. Her age lends credence to witchcraft accusations against villagers Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne, whom Hubbard accuses of attacking her spectrally, which is to say the shapes of the women appear to her. They do not visit bodily. Everyone knows witches have the ability to leave their bodies and travel great distances to torment their victims.
Sarah Jack: There's some things, like, here where you say, everybody knows. [00:24:00] There were, this is one of the things that everybody knew. It was like, not a question. They believed it. Just as much as they believed the devil was visiting them.
Josh Hutchinson: Um, when I say everyone, of course, I mean, virtually everyone, um, believed in witchcraft. And if you didn't believe in witchcraft, that led people to call you an atheist, because how could you believe in God, not believe in his adversary, the devil, and then the devil's ability to, uh, contract with witches to do his work?
Josh Hutchinson: The girl writhes, twisting and turning, shouting at the top of her lungs, "they got me!"
Josh Hutchinson: "Who got you?" Thomas Putnam Jr. asks.
Josh Hutchinson: I don't know, but it hurts. It hurts. Make it stop.
Josh Hutchinson: Shh. [00:25:00] It's okay, Annie. You'll be fine. God is with you always.
Josh Hutchinson: It's not okay. I won't be fine.
Josh Hutchinson: What makes you say that?
Josh Hutchinson: I feel like my bowels are being torn out.
Josh Hutchinson: We are praying as hard as we can.
Josh Hutchinson: It's not enough.
Josh Hutchinson: Then we'll fast.
Josh Hutchinson: No, I'm being pinched and pricked and choked right now. Don't you see that? How do you fast that away?
Josh Hutchinson: I'm sorry, Annie, but you know the best weapon is prayer, the best weapon that we have in this spiritual battle.
Josh Hutchinson: What's wrong with me, Father?
Josh Hutchinson: I wish I knew.
Josh Hutchinson: Is it natural?
Josh Hutchinson: No, there is something very dark in this village.
Josh Hutchinson: The spectral figure of a woman approaches Ann, holding out a little red book and a red pen. Take it, she says. Sign the book and you'll be freed from your troubles. And if I don't, then we'll kill you.
Josh Hutchinson: Father, save me!
Josh Hutchinson: If father won't save you, nobody will.[00:26:00]
Josh Hutchinson: God, preserve me.
Josh Hutchinson: Just sign the book and you'll be free from your guilt, worry, and pain.
Josh Hutchinson: What book is that?
Josh Hutchinson: My God gave it to me.
Josh Hutchinson: And who is your God?
Josh Hutchinson: You know who I mean, girl.
Josh Hutchinson: A stabbing pain tears through Ann's chest. God save me, she says. Annie, Annie, Thomas Putnam is calling.
Josh Hutchinson: After a moment, Ann snaps too. The spectral woman has gone away with her book, but Ann just knows she'll be back.
Josh Hutchinson: Thomas Putnam shakes his daughter. "Are you all right?"
Josh Hutchinson: "No, father. A woman came to me with a book and said she'd kill me if I didn't sign it."
Josh Hutchinson: "What woman?"
Josh Hutchinson: "I don't know, but it is none of God's book. It is the devil's book for ought I know."
Josh Hutchinson: "What woman?"
Josh Hutchinson: "I couldn't make out her face."
Josh Hutchinson: But you must have seen her before.
Josh Hutchinson: She had a familiar aspect.
Josh Hutchinson: How did she get in here? I didn't see anyone come in.
Josh Hutchinson: She appeared spectrally from [00:27:00] thin air.
Josh Hutchinson: A witch.
Josh Hutchinson: I think so.
Josh Hutchinson: I knew it.
Josh Hutchinson: But how?
Josh Hutchinson: This explains everything. Mercy!
Josh Hutchinson: Panting, maid Mercy Lewis enters the room. "Sir," she says.
Josh Hutchinson: "Run and get my brother Edward. Tell him a witch has assaulted Annie."
Josh Hutchinson: Mercy turns and strides away to the stairs. A moment later, the front door squeaks open and promptly slams shut. Footsteps ascend the stairs, and Mother ducks into the garret.
Josh Hutchinson: "What's all this about a witch, then?" she asks.
Josh Hutchinson: Annie twists and winds.
Josh Hutchinson: "Look at Annie, Thomas says. A witch has done this."
Josh Hutchinson: How do you know it's a witch?
Josh Hutchinson: She saw a shape.
Josh Hutchinson: What shape?
Josh Hutchinson: A woman.
Josh Hutchinson: Annie groans.
Josh Hutchinson: What do you think this means? Witchcraft in our village?
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and they say the minister's girls are bewitched as well.
Josh Hutchinson: Oh dear, after they've been sick for so long, why do they suddenly suspect a [00:28:00] witch?
Josh Hutchinson: I don't know, but that's all anyone can talk about when I was over this morning. I suppose we'd better fetch Griggs and Parris to tell us if I'm right.
Josh Hutchinson: I'll send Mercy as soon as she gets back from Edwards.
Josh Hutchinson: No, I want to go now. I'll saddle the horse.
Josh Hutchinson: What shall I do while you're gone?
Josh Hutchinson: Pray, he says and mind she doesn't hurt herself.
Josh Hutchinson: God send you back to us safely.
Sarah Jack: So much fear.
Josh Hutchinson: So much fear. There's talk about, um, we recently, in an interview, our guest Francis Bremer talked to us about Chadwick Hansen's book, Witchcraft in Salem, and in there, he posits the theory that if you truly believe in witchcraft, as soon as you believe that you've actually been cursed, your body and mind [00:29:00] takes all that in, and psychogenically you have reactions. You can have psychosomatic symptoms of bewitchment that basically are just brought on by your intense fear. And I believe that's something that is plausible that the girls experienced.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. I mean, they're scared. Their parents are expressing their fear by their response to what's happening to the kids and what they're saying. And yeah, it's just, they have to find the witch.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Imagine if your children were behaving this way, screaming about pain, being twisted up like pretzels and, you know, do just randomly rolling around the room, writhing in agony, [00:30:00] screaming, get off me, get off me, you know, you would think that somebody's attacking them. You can't. I mean, what else do you think at that point?
Sarah Jack: Yeah. If, you know, the cure, the only cure is finding the witch, then that's what has to be found. With the littles that have been in my house, sometimes when they get hurt, they need an ice pack for the injury. They're in pain, you can see the bump on their leg, what's happened, ice is going to make it feel better. It's such a comfort to them that often they might have a bump that they might get bumped and there is no wound. But they want the ice, because it comforts them. And so the ice is an actual remedy for inflammation and swelling, but other times [00:31:00] just knowing that they can go to the freezer and grab an ice pack, and they do it for each other too. I think there's this element of community that, you know, it's a family and you're trying to help each other. And you see that in your own interactions with, um, people in your life. You, you try to solve each other's problems and find the remedy.
Josh Hutchinson: And it's interesting, I had mentioned that Parris had prayed for weeks. He fasted, uh, several times over January and February and the girls, they got sick in the middle of January and this, now we're towards the end of February. It's so interesting to me that it took basically six weeks for them running through all those measures that they normally take when somebody's ill, um, and doing the past, the fasting and the prayer. [00:32:00] You know, nursing the children as, you know, their mothers would have nursed them. Um, others from the community would have pitched in and come to the houses to see how they could help. Um, but after that, they run out of ideas. And basically you're left with, it must be a witch, it must be diabolical, especially after Dr. Griggs says it's nothing natural, uh, at that point, what's left. And like you said, when you know there is something that could cure or help the person in pain, then that's what you do. And when you believe that, that thing that you can do is to stop a witch, you put your whole heart into that. And I think that's what we see, uh, later on in upcoming episodes. We'll see all that playing out that these [00:33:00] people put their hearts in it because they really wanted to stop the afflictions from happening.
Josh Hutchinson: Sometime later, Thomas returns home to find his brother Edward and neighbor Henry Kinney in the Great Hall, praying over Annie, while Ann Sr., Mercy Lewis, and Mercy's sister, Priscilla Kinney, hover over the afflicted girl. When the door shuts, the people in the room stop and turn to Thomas.
Josh Hutchinson: What's the news? Edward Putnam says.
Josh Hutchinson: Where's the minister? Ann Putnam Sr. asks.
Josh Hutchinson: Where's Griggs? Henry Kinney asks.
Josh Hutchinson: Griggs girl is afflicted too. She also complains of women assaulting her.
Josh Hutchinson: Has she named them?
Josh Hutchinson: No.
Josh Hutchinson: And what of the minister?
Josh Hutchinson: He's tied up with his own girls, but he's added Annie to his prayers, says he'll come visit when his man gets back from some errand at Ingersoll's.
Josh Hutchinson: Dear God, Henry says, four of them afflicted now?
Josh Hutchinson: [00:34:00] It's spreading, Edward says.
Josh Hutchinson: The following two days, February 26 and 27, 1692, will prove pivotal, as these are the days the girls begin naming the names. Not one, but three women will be accused by the end of these days. Tituba, the enslaved indigenous woman in the Parris household, is the first accused when Betty and Abigail cry out against her, the woman who has cared for them as much as their own mother has, who will go on to profess much love for them during her examinations by the magistrates. Born in South America or the Caribbean, Tituba may have been an Arawak or a Carib Parris likely purchased her during his time in Barbados, where he tried to run his father's sugar business before his return to the Massachusetts Bay Colony, where he had for a time attended Harvard College, his academic career cut short by his [00:35:00] father's death in Barbados. To say Samuel was a poor businessman is quite an understatement. The man seems to never quite settle into a profession at which he will be able to succeed.
Josh Hutchinson: At any rate, he had Tituba in Barbados, and he brought her to Boston in 1680 or 1681. Except while he served as temporary minister in Stowe in 1685, Samuel remained in Boston working as a merchant until men from Salem Village approached him about being the town's minister in 1688. When he accepted the call in 1689 and moved his family to Salem Village, he brought Tituba with him. It's unclear when he acquired the man known as John Indian, a man of undetermined Indigenous background. And for a time, a third enslaved person, an African American teenage boy, also resided in the parsonage with the Parrises. However, Parris recorded the boy's death in March 1689. [00:36:00] While Tituba's exact origin is unknown, Elaine G. Breslaw's book, Tituba: the Reluctant Witch of Salem, posits one plausible theory and is very well worth a read.
Josh Hutchinson: On February 27th, Ann Putnam Jr. accuses Sarah Good of bewitching her. Elizabeth Hubbard, meanwhile, names both Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne as her, her tormentors. In a dramatic incident, Elizabeth claims to be followed by a wolf, which is supposedly directed by Sarah Good, or may even be the shapeshifting Sarah herself.
Josh Hutchinson: In 1692, Sarah Good is an impoverished woman with no permanent housing or reliable income. But things hadn't always been that way. Born Sarah Soulart in about 1654, she was raised by respectable parents in Wenham.
Sarah Jack: Her father, John Soulart, was likely French by birth and may have been [00:37:00] Huguenot by faith. He worked as an innkeeper and left behind a healthy estate, but he took his own life in 1672. And unfortunately Sarah was left in the lurch, inheriting only three acres of meadow. So Sarah married Daniel Poole. Who promptly ran up an eye-watering debt, which Sarah was forced to pay from his meager estate after his death, leaving Sarah destitute.
Josh Hutchinson: She next married William Good by 1683.
Josh Hutchinson: William was a weaver and a laborer who never seemed to stay employed long. He and Sarah had to sell off the meadow to pay additional debts owed by Sarah's first husband. William Good's origins are unknown, but he had two children with Sarah. The first, Dorothy, was born in about 1687. The second daughter, whose name is unknown, was born in December 1691. And we have much more with, about Dorothy in our episode with Rachel [00:38:00] Christ-Doane, that you can refer back to learning what happened to Dorothy after the witch trials. At the time she was accused, Sarah Good was in the habit of going house to house, seeking charity. She evidently was given something at least once by the Parrises, but she left the house muttering, raising suspicions.
Josh Hutchinson: Sarah Osborne had caused a scandal when, following the 1674 death of her husband, Robert Prince, she married Alexander Osborne, her young indentured servant. She was also involved in a dispute over her husband's first estate with his kin, Thomas and John Putnam, who were the executors. By February 27th, 1692, Osborne had been sick in bed for at least a year and not been able to attend worship at the meeting house all that time.
Josh Hutchinson: All three accused women [00:39:00] were markedly different from the New England Puritan ideal of what a woman should be. All three were outsiders in key ways. Tituba was most clearly an outsider, being indigenous in a period when Massachusetts English settlers were at war with the Wabanaki Confederacy, an alliance of Algonkian-speaking peoples who had chosen to ally themselves with the French over the British.
Josh Hutchinson: But Sarah Good from Wenham was also a relative newcomer to Salem Village. Being indigent placed her further outside the norms of the community. Requesting charity was itself a risky business in the age of witch hunts, as people who refused to give what was asked for felt guilt, and then resented the one who asked. If something shortly went wrong for the refuser, say a child took ill, or a livestock died, perhaps, then the person who refused the gift would suspect the [00:40:00] one they'd refused was seeking revenge through witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: Aren't there some things in the record where those who were turned away for a favor or a handout were mad when it was refused and they wished something ill on the refuser?
Josh Hutchinson: There are a number of cases exactly like that where someone, say, refused to give milk and the requester then said, "your cow will never give you milk or something to that effect in their irritation and anger and, you know, those words come back to haunt them. Definitely.
Josh Hutchinson: Uh, in the case of Sarah Good, though, she's just accused of muttering. And in the next episode, we'll discuss her examination by the [00:41:00] magistrates and what she says about her muttering.
Josh Hutchinson: Lastly, Sarah Osborne had transgressed social norms by wedding a younger man and indentured servant and by failing to attend meetings on Sundays. With three women accused of witchcraft, the witch hunt was ramping up and would soon be in full swing. We'll cover the first arrests and examinations in our next 101 episode.
Josh Hutchinson: And now we'd like to summarize the facts that we covered in today's stories and help separate fact from fiction. In January 1692, Salem village minister Samuel Parris's daughter, Betty, and his niece, Abigail Williams, began displaying strange symptoms and behaviors. Now, there are many, many theories about what caused the girl's symptoms, and many of these theories, such as ergot, have been disproven. [00:42:00] But I believe it's more important to understand the motivations of the adults who filed the complaints that we'll discuss beginning in our next installment. As I mentioned, so many theories about what caused it. Some theorize that the girls ate bad bread and got ergot poisoning. Others point to encephalitis, meningitis, and other physical ailments, while others point to mental health conditions such as mass psychogenic illness. In several instances, fraud was clearly perpetrated. Were the girls and the other people who were known as afflicted lying about everything? Or were they perhaps trying to strengthen their cases against people they truly believed were bewitching them? That's the big question.
Sarah Jack: It's a big question.
Josh Hutchinson: Whatever caused the ailments, we all know how this story ends. By the end of the saga, at least 156 people had been accused of witchcraft. So why did the men file the complaints and make the accusations they did? [00:43:00] That's something we'll be looking at in our future episodes.
Josh Hutchinson: Continuing with the facts, on February 14th, 1692, Samuel Parris did preach that the godly "must war a good warfare to subdue all our spiritual enemies." And the other lines that I quoted that he said in his sermon, he did say as recorded in his sermon notebook. And it is known that Samuel Parris did observe several private fasts. However, we don't have the specific dates for those, so we don't know whether he held one on February 15th, like I said in the story.
Josh Hutchinson: On February 24th, a physician thought to be Salem Village's William Griggs, though there's no record stating a name of a physician, what we have is that from John Hale who wrote a book in [00:44:00] 1697 that was published after his death. We know from his book that this happened with the doctor saying that they are under an evil hand, but we don't know exactly who that doctor was.
Josh Hutchinson: But on February 25th, Mary Sibley instructed Tituba and or John Indian to bake a witch cake to determine who was afflicting the girls, and Ann Putnam Jr. and Elizabeth Hubbard joined Betty and Abigail in displaying symptoms of affliction.
Josh Hutchinson: February 26th, Betty and Abigail did name Tituba as their tormentor.
Josh Hutchinson: And sometime between February 25th and February 29th, several Salem gentlemen and area ministers visited the Parris household and concurred that the hand of Satan was in the girl's afflictions. Under questioning, Tituba admitted to baking the witch cake, but did not implicate [00:45:00] Mary Sibley.
Josh Hutchinson: February 27th, Ann Putnam Jr. claimed that Sarah Good was afflicting her, and Elizabeth Hubbard blamed both Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne.
Josh Hutchinson: The four girls continued to be sick on February 28th, a Sunday. As of that point in time, there were four people believed to be bewitched and three people suspected to have bewitched them. And we can't wait to be able to tell the rest of this story to you.
Sarah Jack: That was great, Josh.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: Now Mary Louise Bingham is back with another excellent Minute with Mary.
Mary Louise Bingham: According to historian Dr. Emerson Baker, in the early 1690s, the ministers complained of the decline of moral values, which resulted in an angry God, who sought revenge. Their solution was to seek a [00:46:00] moral reformation through the court and strictly enforce laws, which served as moral codes that had not been punished to the fullest extent. The ministers feared the community would fail if there was not a return to God.
Mary Louise Bingham: One of the magistrates at the court in 1690, when this reformation was put into effect, was John Richards, who also served on the Court of Oyer and Terminer in 1692. One of the concerned ministers was Cotton Mather. According to author Marilynne Roach, John Richards was a church member held in high esteem at the North Church in Boston. So Cotton penned a letter dated February 13th, 1692, asking John to approve a commitment renewal service. According to Marilynne, John, and I quote, "apparently showed no enthusiasm." [00:47:00] Marilynne also wrote that this was not the only time that John Richards ignored the advice given to him by Cotton Mather in 1692.
Mary Louise Bingham: Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And here's Sarah with another informative edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: Thank you for joining us today for this episode. Your unwavering support and the way you share our message are invaluable to us. We're excited to announce a new fundraiser that we hope you'll consider supporting. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts.
Sarah Jack: We have the opportunity to attend a conference at Lancaster University focused on the human rights issue of witch hunting, hosted by the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. This event will debut a powerful photo exhibit focusing on harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and [00:48:00] the humanity of people who are accused of being witches globally today.
Sarah Jack: Josh has three photos in the exhibit, and it would be incredibly meaningful for him to be present at its reveal. This exhibit will travel internationally to raise awareness about these important issues, and your support can help make our participation possible.
Sarah Jack: Additionally, we will be gaining valuable knowledge and making invaluable connections, which will advance our interviews and research we do for our education and advocacy projects.
Sarah Jack: We will also have the opportunity to present on our recent exoneration and memorial work in New England, particularly the historic and landmark legislation in Connecticut that formally absolved the witch trial victims of the Connecticut colony. That bill was H. J. 34, a resolution concerning certain witchcraft convictions in colonial Connecticut.
Sarah Jack: If you'd like to contribute to this upcoming opportunity, please donate on our website, endwitchhunts. org. We appreciate anything you can give. Thank you once again for listening, sharing, and supporting us. [00:49:00] Together we can make a difference. Until the next time, take care and stay engaged.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt. We hope you enjoyed today's stories.
Sarah Jack: Join us every week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

June 25, 2024

Salem Witch Museum: New Artifacts on Display

In this Bonus episode, we chat with Rachel Christ-Doane Director of Education for the Salem Witch Museum about their new artifacts for the exhibit, “Witches: Evolving Perceptions.” The first case features four significant books from the 16th to 18th centuries:

– A 1600 edition of Heinrich Kramer’s Malleus Maleficarum.

– A 1586 edition of Johann Weyer’s De Praestigiis Daemonum.

– A 1729 edition of The Secrets of the Invisible World Disclos’d by Andrew Morton (Daniel Defoe).

– A 1796 edition of Robert Calef’s More Wonders of the Invisible World.

These books provide unique perspectives on early modern beliefs about witchcraft, from the notorious Malleus Maleficarum to the critical De Praestigiis Daemonum.

The second case explores witchcraft in popular culture with:

– An 1868 edition of the grimoire Les Secrets Merveilleux De La Magie Naturelle Du Petit Albert.

– A 1919 booklet, “Your Fortune in a Tea Cup,” by Dr. V.M Pierce.

– A signed first edition of Gregory Maguire’s Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West.

– A signed first edition of J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

Rachel shares the stories behind these artifacts and the ongoing renovations at the museum. These new additions provide a deeper understanding of how perceptions of witchcraft have evolved over time.

Tune in to learn about these fascinating artifacts and their impact on the narrative of witchcraft through history and culture and how you can see them for yourself.

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⁠Salem Witch Museum

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B008 Rachel Christ-Doane on New Artifacts at the Salem Witch Museum Download

June 23, 2024
The Puritans with Francis J. Bremer

Show Notes

Dive into the world of the Puritans with Dr. Francis J. Bremer, a historian with over fifty years of expertise in 17th-century New England and Puritanism. Dr. Bremer sheds light on the core beliefs, historical context, and diversity within Puritanism, including the differences between New England Puritans and those who stayed in England. He discusses myths about Puritans as zealous witch hunters and reveals their lasting impact on society, education, and community values. Join us for an episode filled with historical insights and surprising revelations about this influential group.

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Massachusetts Historical Society, Papers of the Winthrop Family

Purchase “Puritanism: A Very Short Introduction” by Francis Bremer

Purchase “The Plymouth Puritans and the Beginning of English New England” by Francis Bremer

Purchase “John Winthrop:America’s Forgotten Founding Father” by Francis Bremer

Purchase “First Founders: American Puritans and Puritanism in an Atlantic World” by Francis Bremer

Purchase “Puritans and Puritanism in Europe and America: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia” by Francis Bremer

Purchase “Lay Empowerment and the Development of Puritanism” by Francis Bremer

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Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

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The Puritans with Francis Bremer Download

June 18, 2024
Nathaniel Ingersoll and His Tavern in the Salem Witch Trials

In this special bonus episode of Witch Hunt, hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack detail the history of the Ingersoll’s Tavern in Danvers, Massachusetts. The episode highlights Nathaniel Ingersoll and his wife’s involvement in the Salem Witch Trials of 1692, where their tavern served as a significant location for key events and imprisonments. The episode outlines various examinations, complaints, and testimonies that occurred at the tavern, and discusses how the Ingersolls and their associates participated in the witch hunts. The preservation efforts for this historical site, now under threat of decay, are also covered, emphasizing the importance of the tavern in understanding the infamous witch trials.

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Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

00:48 The Ingersoll Family History

01:36 Ingersoll’s Tavern and Its Role in Salem Witch Trials

03:12 Key Events and Testimonies at Ingersoll’s Tavern

18:03 The Decline of Witch Hunt Activities at Ingersoll’s

21:05 Post-Witch Hunt and Legacy of Nathaniel Ingersoll

23:45 Current Preservation Efforts and Conclusion

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project

Salem Witch-Hunt Facebook Page

SAVE Ingersoll’s Tavern Facebook Group

More on Ingersoll’s Ordinary

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Nathaniel Ingersoll and His Tavern in the Salem Witch Trials Download

June 16, 2024
Salem Aftermath with Tom Phillips

Welcome to Witch Hunt, where we uncover the truths behind some of history’s most compelling events. Today, we are joined by award-winning filmmaker Tom Phillips, who is here to discuss his new award-winning screenplay, “Salem Aftermath.”
“Salem Aftermath” will be a drama series that explores the strained relationships following the Salem Witch-Hunt and the psychological impacts on those who lived through it like never before. Tom’s extensive research and collaboration with leading scholars infuses real life perspective into this often sensationalized period. Find out which historical voices he has brought to life and how science enabled these stories to unfold. Additionally we discuss the powerful Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, an active effort working to exonerate the remaining accused witches of Massachusetts. Below, you can check out Tom Phillips’ award-winning film “Chasing the Dead: Requiem,” streaming now. Please see links below to get in touch with Tom’s team or to join the Justice Project efforts.

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Agency Representing “Salem Aftermath”

How to see Salem Witch Hunt Examine the Evidence through the Essex National Heritage Area

America’s Hidden Stories: Salem’s Secrets

Murderous Minister | National Geographic Expedition Week: Salem: Unmasking the Devil: Produced by Tom Phillips.

Trailer, Chasing the Dead: Requiem

Tom Phillips Interview on Chasing the Dead: Requiem film

Tom Phillips on IMDB.com

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Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

Come Visit Us On Youtube

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Salem Aftermath with Tom Phillips Download

June 12, 2024
Legal Perceptions of Witch-hunting in India with Riya A Singh and Amit Anand

In this episode, hosts Josh and Sarah explore the complexities of witchcraft legislation relating to witch branding and witch hunting in India. They are joined by Riya A. Singh, a third year law student specializing in human rights, and Dr. Amit Anand, an Assistant Professor of Law at Reva University. They discuss the differences in legal frameworks and implementation across Indian states, underscoring the urgent need for central legislation. The discussion highlights how the shortcomings of current laws are impacting the lives of vulnerable community members. They address the importance of tailoring education, systemic changes, and community programs to fit the unique needs of each region. Join us for an insightful conversation on the urgent need for legal reforms and societal action to combat witch-hunting in India.

https://anchor.fm/s/f219b110/podcast/rss

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Anti-Superstition Laws in India

THE PREVENTION AND PROHIBITION OF WITCH-BRANDING AND WITCH-HUNTING AND OTHER HARMFUL PRACTICES BILL, 2022

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Sign the Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

ActionAid Report: “Witch-Hunting in Odisha”

ActionAid Report: “Witch Branding in India”

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End Witch Hunts

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Legal Perceptions of Witch-hunting in India with Riya A Singh and Amit Anand Download

June 4, 2024

The Connecticut Witch Trials Trilogy with Beth Caruso

In this episode, we welcome back Beth M. Caruso, author of the compelling novel One of Windsor and its sequel The Salty Rose, to discuss her latest book, Between Good and Evil: Curse of the Windsor Witch’s Daughter, the final entry in her Connecticut Witch Trials trilogy. Beth takes us through the chilling history of the Connecticut Witch Trials, focusing on Alice Young Jr., the daughter of the first person executed for witchcraft in Connecticut.

Beth shares insights into Alice Jr.’s experiences, her family’s history, and the extensive research behind the book, including work with historians Malcolm Gaskill and Kathy Hermes. We also explore themes of trauma, healing, and the lasting impact of the witch trials, along with efforts to honor the victims and educate the public. Join us for a compelling mix of historical insights and personal stories with Beth M. Caruso.

Author Beth Caruso’s Website

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Witch Hunt: Connecticut Witch Trials episodes

Connecticut Witch Trials with Beth Caruso and Tony Griego of CT WITCH Memorial

Should Connecticut Witch Trial Victims be Exonerated?

Connecticut Witch-Hunts and John Winthrop, Jr. with Dr. Scott Culpepper

Descendants of Connecticut Witch Trial Victims

Introducing The Last Night, a Connecticut Witch Trials Play

Between God and Satan with Beth Caruso and Katherine Hermes

Representative Jane Garibay on Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Legislation

Goody Bassett, Accused Witch of Stratford, Connecticut

Andy Verzosa on Museums, Mary Barnes, and Farmington, Connecticut

Connecticut Witch Trials 101, Part 1

Connecticut Witch Trials 101, Part 2: Witchcraft Belief, the Founding of Connecticut, and Alice Young

Connecticut Witch Trial Victim Exoneration Testimony with William and Jennifer Schloat

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 3: 1648-1661

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 4: The Hartford Witch-Hunt of 1662-1665

Before Salem with Richard S. Ross III

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 5: 1666 to 1691

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 6: 1692 and Beyond

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Witch Hunt, the podcast where we dive deep into the fascinating and often untold chapters of history, like the Connecticut Witch Trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we are thrilled to welcome back a very special guest, author and historian, Beth Caruso. Beth is the creator of the Connecticut Witch Trials Trilogy, and she's here to talk about her latest book, Between Good and Evil: Curse of the Windsor Witch's Daughter.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right, Sarah. In this episode, Beth will take us on a journey through the chilling history of the Connecticut Witch Trials, focusing on the life of Alice Jr., the daughter of Alice Young, the first person executed for witchcraft in Connecticut. This episode promises to be a compelling mix of historical insights, personal trauma, and the quest for respectful memory.
Sarah Jack: We'll also hear about the extensive research that went into Beth's book, including some surprising discoveries and the real life connections [00:01:00] between the characters in her narrative. Plus, we'll explore the ongoing efforts to memorialize the victims of these tragic events and Beth's exciting future projects.
Josh Hutchinson: So, grab your headphones and get ready for a deep dive into a dark and intriguing chapter of American history. Let's welcome Beth Caruso back to the show.
Sarah Jack: Hello, Josh.
Josh Hutchinson: Hi, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: Hey, Beth.
Beth Caruso: Hi. How are you, Sarah?
Sarah Jack: I'm good.
Josh Hutchinson: Hi, Beth.
Beth Caruso: Hi, Josh. And I hope you're doing well, too.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I am. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you for returning to the podcast. I am so excited to get to talk to you about your new project, and I want to thank you for all the years you've worked to ensure the legacy of this history, and we are excited to hear about Between Good and Evil: Curse of the Windsor Witch's Daughter. What can you [00:02:00] tell us about that?
Beth Caruso: Well, I'm thrilled to be back. Uh, you two are old friends. That's not a secret. So, um, I'm really happy to tell you a little bit more about the new book, Between Good and Evil. It is the third book in the Connecticut Witch Trials, uh, Trilogy, which by the way, it didn't start out as a trilogy; it started out with a book about Alice Young and then more information just kept coming. And It ended up being a trilogy, but this last one is about Alice, Jr., her only daughter, and what happened to her and what she saw and how she dealt with the trauma of losing her mother to a witch hanging.
Josh Hutchinson: How have the descendants [00:03:00] of Alice Young inspired you?
Beth Caruso: Well, the descendants had asked me a long time ago, after reading One of Windsor, when the book about Alice Jr. would be coming out. And at that point I said, "well, I don't have any plans for it. I just don't have enough information about her." Well, time went by, and there were some things that happened that gave me a lot more information where I got to a place where I could say, "hmm, okay, there's enough historical information now that I can piece together into a dramatic history."
Beth Caruso: Um, one of the biggest developments was, um. I think it's a couple years ago now, The Ruin of All Witches by Malcolm Gaskill. Can you see this okay? Um, he [00:04:00] did research into the witch trials in Springfield, Massachusetts. Of course, you know, up the Connecticut River Valley was a hotbed of the early witch trials in New England. Not just Windsor, Wethersfield, and Hartford, all the way up to Springfield, as well, with the trials of Hugh and Mary Parsons and subsequently, um, Mary Parsons pointing fingers and accusing other people of being witches, such as, um, Mercy Marshfield, who had originally been from Windsor, um, or had settled in Windsor and then, uh, Mary Bliss Parsons, as well, who, who later had trials of her own.
Beth Caruso: So, what Malcolm Gaskill did, I had read those records [00:05:00] before, but, you know, it's, they can be confusing. There's quite a lot of them, but, you know, this person had this type of aggression towards that person, and then they, Hugh Parsons did all these crazy things, and so did his wife, and without a historian putting it into a great context. It was very confusing. Gaskill was brilliant. He laid out the town of Springfield in a way that was understandable. Uh, the first pages, he says, these are the characters. And, um, I knew that Alice Junior's husband, Simon Beamon, had been living in Springfield, and he had actually been a participant in those trials against the Parsons.
Beth Caruso: Um, But it helped me understand that whole background [00:06:00] much more and how people were interconnected with each other, um, and, and how these trials weren't really black and white. Um, so I had a lot more background information about Alice Junior's life after she married and she went to Springfield and how that all like came pieced together.
Beth Caruso: But I also learned more on my own, and, and with historian Kathy Hermes, um, with our article, which I've been on your show and talked about, it's in Connecticut History Review, and it's "Between God and Satan: Thomas Thornton, Witch Hunting and Religious Mission in the English Atlantic World".
Beth Caruso: We were doing some research at the Connecticut State Archives, and [00:07:00] it was thought before that Alice Jr. had, had somehow ended up in Springfield and ended up meeting Simon Beamon there and then she married there. But we realized by looking at the original, um, archives at the Connecticut State Library that she had indeed stayed in Windsor, Connecticut, which is mind-blowing if you think about the first accusation of witchcraft happening there to her mother and her mother being murdered.
Beth Caruso: Um, we know she didn't go with her historical father, and this was also really interesting, too, in piecing together the story. Um, John Young, he went to Stratford pretty, pretty soon after [00:08:00] Alice Young's hanging. And in Stratford, he dies in 1661, but he was sick for seven months. Still, he died intestate. Basically, he had no will that he left behind. So I thought, well, wow, isn't, isn't that, um, fascinating and dramatic in some way? This, this man who's supposedly her father, like he splits, he goes to Stratford, but somehow she still stays in Windsor. Wow. What a revelation.
Beth Caruso: So you can come up with all kinds of dramatic theories about that. Did she, you know, have a parting of the ways with her father because of him not standing up for the mother? Or was he really more, in fact, a stepfather? Because it's, it, in the records, it shows that John Young was [00:09:00] sick for seven months before he died. If you have a child or children and you know you're sick and you know it's not going well, what's the one thing you make sure you do for your children? You write a will for them. He did not write a will. And furthermore, nobody came to claim the will.
Beth Caruso: So his property in Stratford sat vacant for seven years. The town couldn't sell it. They had to wait seven years to make sure no one would claim it. But once that seven years was passed, the town sold the property.
Beth Caruso: And you can't say this is because, oh, well, Alice Jr. was a woman, because by that point she had four sons. She was married with a husband. So they certainly could have claimed it, but they never did. And so I thought all those pieces together were [00:10:00] pretty interesting.
Beth Caruso: And the other thing, you know, Mercy Marshfield, I told you she was one of the people who was accused of witchcraft by Mary Parsons in Springfield during that time, I think it was early 50s. Correct me if I'm wrong, Josh. Um, but Mercy Marshfield had a daughter, Sarah, Uh, Sarah Miller, she, she married a man named Thomas Miller in Springfield, but they had been in Windsor. They would have been in Windsor for Alice Young's accusations and everything leading up to her hanging. Um.
Beth Caruso: So, Sarah ends up, Sarah, Mercy Marshfield's daughter, ends up being the next door neighbor of Alice Young, Jr., um, and, and this is, again, due to the work of, uh, Gaskill. Uh, they're right next door to each [00:11:00] other. Their two husbands work for William Pynchon, who's the head of the colony. Both of their mothers get accused of witchcraft, you know? So I thought, "oh my gosh, they, they have to be tight." They hold, they're both from Windsor. They have this unique common thing. Both their husbands know each other. They're working for Pynchon. On top of that, they have lots of children, both of them. They both have like a dozen children. And then finally, they, those children intermarry. The, they become truly family.
Beth Caruso: And, um, so I thought, well, that's a great basis too, because here is, I know this has to be, um, a unique friendship and a strong friendship. So when we talk about Alice Jr. and we talk about how she could have made it through, certainly that could have been an element of it.
Sarah Jack: It's [00:12:00] so great to get to talk about the Youngs again. This is wonderful. Um, one of your themes, um, with Alice Jr. in this story is her internal conflicts and the guilt by association. Can you tell us about how that impacted her as a mother and friend and wife?
Beth Caruso: Well, you know, of course I can only theorize, um, but I thought, here's, here's a trauma. Um, there's probably post traumatic stress syndrome in some way. And let me look at, you know, just cases that I know about, some horrific cases of childhood trauma, whether we're talking about like child sexual abuse by priests or, um, doctors or people like [00:13:00] that, or war or things like that, um, or even, even divorce within a family. How do children process that?
Beth Caruso: And for extremely traumatic events, the children will often, you know, push all those traumatic memories, all those things into their subconscious, because it's just too much for their little psyches to handle when they're children like that. And you find them later on as adults with repressed memories that come to the surface that are often quite shocking. So, that's one element.
Beth Caruso: And the other one is that when a child goes through trauma, a lot of times what they do is they internalize it. It's very common in divorce. Oh, what [00:14:00] did I do to cause mommy and daddy to break up? It's my fault in some way. Um, so those are just things that we can easily observe by these childhood traumas that we can see in present day.
Beth Caruso: Well, of course, those things are, you know, part of humanity and the human experience. And so I thought, "well, Alice Jr, it wouldn't be unbelievable at all that she would go through something like that, that she would have repressed memories that would eventually be triggered with time." and as she's more mature as a woman, you know, these memories might seep out and, um, she would have to deal with them. How would she deal with them? Another, you know, great tool to use to [00:15:00] dramatize the story. Um, because what memories are repressed?
Beth Caruso: Well, of course, I, I wanted to paint a good picture of what happens in One of Windsor, some of it fictionalized, some of it real, but I thought, "oh, wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be, um, juicy for readers to realize, oh, well, maybe there's other secrets that were not told and couldn't be told because it's from Alice Jr's viewpoint." And so I tried to do that with her repressed memories.
Beth Caruso: And then also the feeling of guilt, one, because it does fit these childhood patterns of trauma. But also because there was such a stigma in those days about, uh, someone in your family being called a witch. And there were real and deadly consequences to [00:16:00] that.
Beth Caruso: Sarah, you know, in your own, um, family history with the Connecticut Witch Trials and the Benhams and how the the stigma of witchcraft carried on from generation to generation. In fact, with Alice Young, it, it most certainly carried on and we have a story about it.
Beth Caruso: And in this case, a lot of people think that she was actually accused of witchcraft. She wasn't accused, per se, but her reputation was tarnished and known as the daughter of a witch, no doubt by this story. Her, her, um, son, Thomas, and of course this is after her husband dies. Her son, Thomas, gets into a fight with someone, and because he has said that Thomas looks like a witch and his mother's a witch, [00:17:00] um, no formal accusation there, but Thomas was extremely upset by this, because being called a witch and that may lead to being accused of something may lead to, of course, death. And he knew this all too well, and he lost it. He beat up this guy.
Beth Caruso: Um, the guy countersued. The guy brought him to court, but Thomas brought the guy to court as well. They countersued each other. The guy who basically slandered Thomas and his mother got a stiffer fine than Thomas Beamon for beating up the guy. Because I think the courts understood how dangerous it could have been for that family. And people were, this was, I [00:18:00] think in the 1670s. So things were dying down a little bit, at least until they picked up again with Salem. But so yeah, there were real consequences to all these things.
Josh Hutchinson: There were. Just having your reputation ruined in that way could really impact how you were able to do commerce and trade with others in your community and, uh, get the help that you needed from the community, because everybody had to work together.
Beth Caruso: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It wasn't, you know, always black and white, though. And that's, what's so interesting about this story. As I said before, the man that [00:19:00] Alice Jr. marries has been an active participant in the Hugh and Mary Parsons trials. He shares his stories. He truly believes that Hugh Parsons is a witch. And so how ironic that, you know, just a couple years later, basically, he meets Alice Jr. and marries her and in a way I see him standing up for her with the timing of that marriage.
Beth Caruso: The interesting thing about Alice Jr. being in town, in Windsor, in 1654, was that Windsor's second witch trial victim, Lydia Gilbert, was being accused of witchcraft. [00:20:00] So it just so happens that only about two weeks after Lydia Gilbert's conviction is when Simon Beamon marries Alice Young, Jr. And then she's out of town. So the timing is very interesting, because by marrying her when he did, he may have helped to save her life, because, of course, everyone in Windsor is in a witch hunting frenzy once again. Later, you see Simon Beamon go to trial, another witch trial, the one of Mary Bliss Parsons, the second Mary Parsons, I swear it's a nightmare to keep them straight, but he stands up for her. And you know, he talks about her trauma of, of losing a child [00:21:00] and, um, is supportive of her. So there's two sides to the coin, and it's definitely not clear.
Sarah Jack: Lydia Gilbert's story. There's so much more there than, um, what we're able to know about Alice. And what do we need to know about Lydia?
Beth Caruso: Well, the first part of the book, the first third of the book, takes place in Windsor, Connecticut. And I do tell Lydia's story through the eyes of Alice Jr. And I use the latest research to tell her story.
Beth Caruso: Um, there's been a lot, a lot of confusion about who Lydia Gilbert was and did she have children? Who exactly [00:22:00] was she married to? There's a Thomas Gilbert Sr. and a Thomas Gilbert Jr. And most historians think now that she was married to Thomas Gilbert, Jr. And if you don't mind, I want to read the exact passage that really helps us to figure this out that's in the Connecticut archives, the, in the historical record. So in the particular court in 1642, so we're talking about 12 years before Lydia's conviction, there's a record from March 2nd, states Will Rescew, he was the jailer, "is to take into his custody James Hullet, [00:23:00] Thomas Gilbert, Lydia Bliss, and George Gibbs and to keep them in guides or shackles and give them course diet, hard work, and sharp correction."
Beth Caruso: So what were one of the factors of someone being targeted for a witch? Of course, it's previous crime. So you see Thomas Jr. here and you see him with a woman named Lydia, but her name is Lydia Bliss. There was one Bliss family in Hartford that she, that we know of. Um, a lot of times when you have records for families, there may be a missing child or two, so Lydia could be a missing child accounted for in the Bliss family, or she could be a cousin or a stepchild or something like that. But in any case. um, [00:24:00] most historians think that because of this record, and because we know that Thomas Jr. bought land in Windsor, that this is the Lydia Gilbert we're talking about, the wife of Thomas Junior, not Senior.
Beth Caruso: So Thomas Jr., and there's more evidence to show that this is probably the case, although we can't say this for a hundred percent sure. Thomas Gilbert went to, um, Springfield as well, right after Lydia's Hanging. We find him marrying into the Bliss family again in Springfield in 1655. He married, um, a woman by the name of, I forget her first name right at the [00:25:00] second, but her maiden name was Chapin, and she married a Samuel Bliss. He was the brother of Mary Parsons, Mary Bliss Parsons. And so Lydia Bliss could have been the sister of both of them. Lydia Bliss could have been the sister of both of them. Um, and so this suggests, you know, more family connection.
Beth Caruso: The other thing was, we don't, a lot of us don't think that Lydia had any children. For those who think they are descended from her, please don't hate me, um, but I really don't think she had children. And I think this is one of the reasons why she may have been targeted. So some people say, well, no, no, there's children there, because when Thomas Jr. dies [00:26:00] in Springfield in 1662, in his will, he mentions the, the Chapin children, um, he mentions the children that he had in the marriage in Springfield, but he also mentions a previous family of four children. That would have been referring to his wife's previous marriage to Samuel Bliss. It wouldn't have been any children with Lydia. There are no records for children for Lydia. And those children being married to a Lydia Bliss would have already been family to him. So, so there was a combined family there in Springfield already. So, um, this is, [00:27:00] you know, this is all very interesting.
Beth Caruso: And Malcolm Gaskill, again, he, his research was so phenomenal. He spent so much time talking about the witch accusations for Mary Bliss Parsons and Mary Lewis Parsons, um, as their peculiar behavior related to grief and loss of a child. And in those days, fertility was everything for women. They were told by the patriarchy it was important for them. And Gaskill does define and other researchers define how it was suspicious for women who had low fertility, um, such as Alice Young with one child, such as Lydia Gilbert with no [00:28:00] children, and that they would be jealous of women who were fertile and who had lots and lots and lots of children. Of course, back in those days, so much of it was out of their control, right? But, um, this, this fed into all the superstition that they would be willing to make a pact with the devil to improve their fertility. Of course, this is all, you know, patriarchal musings that probably have no, nothing related to reality at all, including real feelings of women at that time.
Josh Hutchinson: We've even seen cases where women were accused of luring children to come with them. And that was suspicious to make you a witch, because if [00:29:00] you had especially lost a child, then there was an assumption that you had that child envy and you craved to have one, because that's the natural role of the woman in that, the thinking of the time.
Beth Caruso: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, that could have played a role in the Hartford witch panic with Judith Ayers, um, befriending little Betty Kelly before she died, helping feed her soup. Supposedly she had lost a child, um, and you know, oh, so now she's, she's got this yearning within, and so is she trying to lure this other child, because she gets blamed, Judith Ayers gets blamed for this child's death. You can see how it all feeds into this story.
Beth Caruso: [00:30:00] You know, what else is part of the book, like the, the aspect of, okay, There's trauma, but then what happens with healing and, uh, respectful memory, especially those witch trial victims who were just, you know, probably thrown in a ditch.
Sarah Jack: Yeah.
Beth Caruso: How this is, uh, part of respectful memory and honoring Alice and the other victims.
Sarah Jack: Beth, the romance dynamic that you're able to weave into your stories is so enjoyable. Is there anything of that nature that you would like to share with us today out of your new book?
Beth Caruso: Hmm. Well, let's see. I can talk to you about when Simon Beamon and Alice Young Jr meet each other again. In my story, I have [00:31:00] Alice Jr. going to Springfield briefly, um, because I had that in One of Windsor, so I wanted to continue that, but then she quickly came back to Windsor to, and I suppose, I'm not sure if this is true or not, but in the story, to live with her Aunt Rhody. As we're talking, you know, I've been saying Alice Jr., but to make it less confusing, I called her Alissa, which is what she was called in One of Windsor.
Beth Caruso: So Simon Beamon, his profession, I told you he worked for Pynchon up in Springfield. A lot of what he did was, besides being a cobbler, was he was a messenger for the leader of that colony. And he often took canoe trips down the Connecticut River, which is called the Big River in those days. And he [00:32:00] made many, many trips to Windsor.
Beth Caruso: So even if they didn't know each other before, like I have in my story, you know, even if it was different in real life, Simon Beamon was often in Windsor, canoeing down the river and exchanging goods, sending messages from William Pynchon to the people of Windsor and probably going down further down the Big River to share news with the Connecticut leaders in Hartford, as well.
Beth Caruso: So in this early chapter, chapter four, this is where Simon Beamon and Alissa, Alice Jr. meet each other for the very first time again. "'Alissa! Alissa! Is that really you?,' a voice beamed from the water. [00:33:00]
Beth Caruso: Aunt Rhody was surprised to hear an unfamiliar voice talking to me and looked on with curiosity. I squinted and looked down to see. I held Rhody's arm.
Beth Caruso: 'That's Simon Beamon, Uncle John's friend and Mr. Pynchon's assistant,' I whispered.
Beth Caruso: She finally remembered and nodded. 'Aye, he works for Springfield's leader. I remember,' she said.
Beth Caruso: Simon was boyish with straight brown hair and navigated the river currents so skillfully he might as well have been a shadfish. His satchel was full of papers for the leaders of Windsor and Hartford from Mr. Pynchon. The leather bag was always kept dry in his capable care. He'd been coming around for a long time to Windsor from Springfield, doing errands for his boss, Mr. Pynchon.
Beth Caruso: I smiled shyly. 'Aye, Simon, tis I, the little girl you [00:34:00] used to tease so mischievously.'
Beth Caruso: He grinned. 'Aye, I was guilty of that. But I needed you to laugh then, so I was only helping your uncle to get a smile out of you. It wasn't so bad, was it?'
Beth Caruso: 'No, well, I suppose it wasn't.' I grinned.
Beth Caruso: 'I was hoping that I would see you here in Windsor. I heard you were here, but never had the good fortune to see you again until today.' He smiled.
Beth Caruso: 'She's become quite the young woman now, almost unrecognizable for the child she once was,' Aunt Rhody said, beaming as proud as if I were her own daughter."
Beth Caruso: And in this chapter, later on, they go on, they're all going to Hartford by river and, um, Alice Jr. was going to take the [00:35:00] shallop with Aunt Rhody and her future husband, but Aunt Rhody, at this time, all these witch trials are, are, they're still going, and now all these accusations against Lydia Gilbert are happening, and she's very worried, and she sees, oh, this man seems interested in Alice Jr., so she kind of nudges her, 'well, why don't you go in the canoe with this guy?' And in this chapter they just they have a lovely time, and they get to know each other, and, um, they truly do love each other, and they have, as I said, about a dozen children together, and he's the, one of the main parts of her healing along with her friendship, and each of her children is a part of her healing, too.
Beth Caruso: Aunt Rhody says to her at one point, 'hold your children around [00:36:00] you like a protective cloak.' Again, this is the idea that women who have few children and no children are very vulnerable. Have many, many children with your husband, and indeed having those children and having a male child and Thomas Beamon at the time that, you know, the slander happens in the 1670s, even though her husband is not around anymore, her son is standing up for her. So having these male children is another form of protection.
Sarah Jack: The healing element in your book is another one of those important threads, as you just mentioned, and, um, I remember, you know, just really, um, reflecting on his [00:37:00] excitement and support of her when she has her first, um, , they have their first child coming, and then as their story unfolds, you just, you see how the family was a strength to her, the, you know, through the very difficult things that come along.
Beth Caruso: Absolutely. You know, in those days she couldn't go to therapy. Um, they had no name for post-traumatic stress syndrome. And so I thought, 'well, back in those days, how would she have healed?' Of course, healing is always possible and to some degree, um, even without the level of knowledge we have about psychology today. And what would have been those traditional ways? And I really wanted to show those.
Beth Caruso: Um, as I mentioned, her, her husband seems to be, you know, a [00:38:00] good guy. After he meets her, he's sticking up for others who have been accused of witchcraft. And they have many children together. And then, of course, Mercy Marshfield's daughter, Sarah, would have also been the neighbor right next door with the same unique experiences supporting her, and they're all, they're having children together at the same time. They would have supported her.
Beth Caruso: Um, but you know, the other part of this is I think that she comes to terms with what happened as she remembers and she understands how she can heal by remembering her mother in a way that's not the witch. She can remember her as a child remembers their mother fondly, anyway, [00:39:00] children who do have a good relationship with their mother. And those respectful memories are not just for those who have passed on. They are for us, to heal us from the grief, especially if it's been a traumatic grief and someone hasn't been buried properly, like a witch trial victim who has just been thrown in a ditch unceremoniously.
Beth Caruso: Um, so for this reason, I have a English ballad that I put, put in the book, and its theme is very much about respectful memory. You know, this is a very common thread throughout all humanity, how we treat our dead, how we remember our dead, especially those that were wronged at some point.
Beth Caruso: And last [00:40:00] year, we all did the journey together through the Connecticut General Assembly to get recognition for Connecticut's witch trial victims. This was also a form of respectful memory, trying to educate the public about who these women really, really were, um, at, uh. Josh recently pointed out at several, um, witch memorials throughout the world, there have been signs like, "just people," "just ordinary people," um, to help get the respectful memory on track and correct the assumptions and the, the, you know, reasons for the tarnished reputations, the, the propaganda against these people when they were alive. So anyway, this is a big part of the [00:41:00] story, as well. And it's, you know, it's the perfect thing to wrap up this trilogy.
Josh Hutchinson: And you've been studying the history of the Connecticut Witch Trials and educating people about it through your books and talks for a number of years now. And I know you're continuing to do that in many ways. Uh, we just had the anniversary episode of the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, but the exoneration isn't the end of the work. So what's next?
Beth Caruso: Well, what we're all working on right now is we're discussing, we have a whole group of people in Connecticut, outside of Connecticut. Um, carrying on this whole theme of respectful memory. We would like there to be a memorial [00:42:00] for Connecticut's witch trial victims. In addition to that, there is really a void in telling this history in Connecticut. I mean, it's one thing for myself and others to come up with a few novels. That does help, but, you know, there are, of course, fictional aspects to these.
Beth Caruso: And we want, we would love for people to know the full history, the accurate history, how it was a major important part of the whole witch trial saga in New England, how Connecticut was the first, how we had the first witch panic, um, how these ideas got promoted and spread. And we would like more people to know about that.
Beth Caruso: So, um, we're also working with others in Connecticut, institutions and museums, stakeholders, who are [00:43:00] involved in public history, to talk about ways that this history, the real history, not the propaganda, can be shared, um, through different venues using the archives that we do have in Connecticut.
Josh Hutchinson: Right. And there's also talk about getting something about the Connecticut Witch Trials into the school curriculum.
Beth Caruso: Yes. Well, we had a meeting with someone recently. And, uh, with a few people actually. And that was, uh, that was a pretty cool thing to bring up. We're at the beginning stages, but the work is not done, and, of course, this is all, this is all pertinent to people who are persecuted today as witches, [00:44:00] both, uh, you know, symbolic types of finger pointing as well as real witch hunts. Um, I posted today on CT Witch Memorial Facebook page an article about how exonerations, modern day exonerations of countries' past witch trial victims can have an effect on witch hunts that are still happening in many parts of the world.
Josh Hutchinson: And that article was written by Witch Hunt recent guest, Brendan Walsh.
Beth Caruso: Oh, wonderful. I didn't realize that.
Josh Hutchinson: We can, uh, you can refer back to Brendan's episode to hear him.
Beth Caruso: Absolutely. Yes. Um, I'll have to post that link next.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, it was so, like, seeing the article was exciting and then, you know, immediately I'm like, okay, who, who publishes, oh, [00:45:00] it's, it's Dr. Walsh. So that was like a, a neat surprise.
Beth Caruso: Oh, that's, that's very cool. That's very cool. Yeah.
Sarah Jack: But it just, you know, it's another way you see this conversation that is around this history, it has become ongrowing and very alive and lots of people from all different backgrounds and expertise have insight and reflect on what, what, what does that past mean for what's happening today? So it's really good to see.
Beth Caruso: It is. And there are parallels, you know, not just from a witch trial standpoint, or it's also just generalized misogyny. I mean, some of the things I'm hearing in present day are shocking to me. This, you know, [00:46:00] um, a legislator in Indiana talking about women not voting, how it should be a family vote, and the male in the family should vote, things like this. I'm like, "what? Is this really 2024?" So you know, this is pertinent on so many different levels.
Sarah Jack: Absolutely. Do you have any new projects that you have your sights on?
Beth Caruso: Um, aside from what we just talked about, I am doing, I am working on another novel, and it's also historical fiction, but based on a story, family legend about a kidnapping and immigrants from Sicily. So, um, that it's interesting and, um, [00:47:00] I'm all pumped up about it.
Beth Caruso: It's fun to kind of change gears after a while and share some different history, but, um, that, immigrant histories are very interesting too, because, you know, they didn't just come for economic reasons, um, or more freedom of religion or things like that. I mean, they, they also had hidden histories where they might not have been able to stay in the village or things like that. And, um, it's just so fascinating. And sometimes it can be just as hard to find out about them if they change their names after they come to this country.
Beth Caruso: But, um, not all those things will be an element in the next book, but it just in general, I'm saying, I think the immigrant stories are very interesting and I think [00:48:00] very pertinent to humanize now as well, because, of course, now immigrants are being demonized. Um, so I think this will be an important commentary, not a blatant commentary, but just a story that truly does humanize immigrants and everything that they go through to be a part of this country.
Josh Hutchinson: The level of rancor in politics today, people are literally being called demons, followers of Satan, and evil. It's, yeah. So it's very important to humanize all these stories of different people from different backgrounds. So thank you for that.
Beth Caruso: Completely agree with you, Josh.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
Beth Caruso: On the same page. We're all part of [00:49:00] humanity.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
Beth Caruso: Yes.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you have any events coming up?
Beth Caruso: There is a, there's a fair called Made in Connecticut. I am going to be there sharing the books and connecting with people.
Beth Caruso: Yes.
Beth Caruso: In the fall, I'm also going to be at the Webb Dean Stevens Museum. I'm going to be giving a lecture about the Connecticut Witch Trials there. Um, that's a great venue. So I'm very excited to go to Wethersfield, another, you know, hot spot in the Connecticut Witch Trials. I think there were, well, there were four victims right off the bat that I can think of.
Josh Hutchinson: And where can people go to [00:50:00] learn about your events and your books?
Beth Caruso: I have a website, it's called oneofwindsor.com, and I have links to each book that tell you a little more about each book. I have links to events. I also have a cool link to media. Um. I have been fortunate enough to be invited to be on things like Rhode Island Public, uh, Public Television. I have a clip from that. I have a clip from, uh, some news stations here in Connecticut. I have clips from the Witch Hunt podcast. Um, a couple of your, there's one episode on there now, but I'm, I'm building up the site some more. So there will be more of your episodes that will be linked there.
Beth Caruso: Um, I have a research page, if you [00:51:00] want to learn more about the research that I did with Kathy Hermes, that really went quite in depth about the Alice Young case, as well as a man named Thomas Thornton, her next door neighbor, who, uh, curiously ends up knowing so many people from the Salem Witch Trials and is in Salem at that time hobnobbing with the Mathers and, um, people like that. So we did a pretty in-depth research article about that.
Beth Caruso: Um, so that is there on the site and, you know, I add events to it all the time. I add media to it all the time. I can't wait to post this podcast on it. Um, so yeah, please, please visit the site and, uh, gosh, I, I thank you guys so much for everything you've done [00:52:00] to bring light to this Connecticut history. I think you've done an enormous amount to get the word out, and I appreciate that so much.
Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. It's such an honor that much of that has been something we've gotten to partner with or collaborate with you on. And the broad coalition of descendants and historians and authors, much of which are in Connecticut. And, um, this discussion today is so special to me. And I, I just keep thinking about that very first time I sent a Facebook message to CT Witch Memorial to you and Tony. And I just, I think, 'wow, if I could have looked into the future and seen everything that we were going to learn together. I wouldn't have believed it.'
Beth Caruso: I'm so, I'm so glad you did, Sarah. I'm really glad that you reached out. Um, [00:53:00] and it's, I, I think it's a really good reminder, like you don't know who's going to reach out to you and maybe you don't know them then, but you have no idea what they're going to do with their enthusiasm and their passion, you know. Always keep possibilities open.
Sarah Jack: Well, you're very generous, um, in responding to people. And I think that's one of your great strengths as an author and advocate.
Beth Caruso: Thank you so much. And I have to, I really, I have to say the same for you too. It's, you're very good at connecting people.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much. And we'll have links to oneofwindsor. com in the show notes, and it'll appear on the screen right about here. [00:54:00] So you'll be able to see it.
Beth Caruso: Thank you so much.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much for joining us today. It was wonderful.
Beth Caruso: It's my pleasure, always.
Sarah Jack: Mary Louise Bingham is back with A Minute with Mary.
Mary Louise Bingham: As many of you already know, I have been researching the life and legacy of John Winthrop, Jr. Beth Caruso has been such an inspiration in this endeavor because of her own desire to keep telling his story and help people understand the important role he played in saving many wrongfully accused of the capital crime of witchcraft in colonial Connecticut.
Mary Louise Bingham: Beth and I have had many conversations where I learned so much of Winthrop Jr. 's interest in alchemy, his medical practice. In addition, she has introduced me to some of his very dear friends, such as Edward Howes and Gershom Bulkeley.
Mary Louise Bingham: Beth will also appear in an upcoming presentation of [00:55:00] my program, Wednesdays with Winthrop, Jr. We will keep our audience posted of the exact time and date. Thank you, Beth, for your graciousness and your continued support, and for being the wonderful friend you will always be to me.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to this special episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Visit us on YouTube.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

May 28, 2024

The Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project Marks Anniversary of Exoneration

Join us for a special episode marking the first anniversary of the groundbreaking legislation that cleared the names of Connecticut’s witch trial victims. On May 25, 2023, House Joint Resolution 34 was adopted, officially absolving the innocent victims of the colonial witch trials and offering a formal state apology to their descendants. In this episode, hear from the five advocates who founded the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project in 2022 as they reflect on their journey to legislative success, share their personal experiences, and discuss the profound impact of the 2023 resolution. We’ll delve into their efforts to raise awareness, the plans for a state memorial, and how this historical victory resonates with the ongoing modern witch hunt crisis worldwide. Don’t miss this insightful conversation about justice, remembrance, and the continued fight against wrongful persecution.

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Mary-Louise Bingham’s YouTube video at Proctor’s Ledge about Connecticut victims

Diana DiZoglio Senate Floor Speech Exoneration of Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. 05/26/22

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Historical Sites with witch trial ties

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Witch Hunt: Connecticut Witch Trials episodes

Connecticut Witch Trials with Beth Caruso and Tony Griego of CT WITCH Memorial

Should Connecticut Witch Trial Victims be Exonerated?

Connecticut Witch-Hunts and John Winthrop, Jr. with Dr. Scott Culpepper

Descendants of Connecticut Witch Trial Victims

Introducing The Last Night, a Connecticut Witch Trials Play

Between God and Satan with Beth Caruso and Katherine Hermes

Representative Jane Garibay on Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Legislation

Goody Bassett, Accused Witch of Stratford, Connecticut

Andy Verzosa on Museums, Mary Barnes, and Farmington, Connecticut

Connecticut Witch Trials 101, Part 1

Connecticut Witch Trials 101, Part 2: Witchcraft Belief, the Founding of Connecticut, and Alice Young

Connecticut Witch Trial Victim Exoneration Testimony with William and Jennifer Schloat

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 3: 1648-1661

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 4: The Hartford Witch-Hunt of 1662-1665

Before Salem with Richard S. Ross III

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 5: 1666 to 1691

Connecticut Witch Trials 101 Part 6: 1692 and Beyond

Transcript

The Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project Marks Anniversary of Exoneration Download

May 24, 2024
Mary Beth Norton on Salem Witch Trials Research

In this episode of “Witch Hunt,” we are privileged to share the expert insights of Mary Beth Norton, a distinguished historian specializing in early American history. Mary Beth shares her profound research on the impact of frontier warfare on the dynamics of the Salem Witch Trials, offering a unique perspective that centers on the accusers. Mary Beth gives insights from her experiences teaching this intriguing topic of history at Cornell University, alongside the compelling witch trial research her students undertook. Join us as we discuss key takeaways from her groundbreaking book, In the Devil’s Snare, and hear firsthand about the innovative research conducted by her students. Don’t miss this deep dive into one of the most mysterious chapters of American history.

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Buy: In the Devil’s Snare: The Salem Witchcraft Crisis of 1692 by Mary Beth Norton

Buy: Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt by Bernard Rosenthal, editor

The Cornell University Witchcraft Collection

commonplace.online

Salem Witchcraft In The Classroom

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Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
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May 14, 2024
The Once and Future Witch Hunt with Alice Markham-Cantor

We present a thought-provoking episode that considers the enduring legacy of witch hunts, tracing their historical roots through the Salem Witch Trials to the present day with Martha Carrier descendant and author Alice Markham-Cantor. Her personal journey and research, lead our reflection on the economic, political, and personal motivations driving witch hunts. Witch hunt history reveals how accusations of witchcraft, intertwined with social disputes and global dynamics, persist across time, necessitating a call for historical truth, awareness of ongoing injustices, and activism against this continuing phenomenon. Alice’s new book, The Once and Future Witch Hunt: A Descendant’s Reckoning from Salem to the Present, releases May 8, 2024, and stay tuned to awitchstory.com for updates on the new documentary, A Witch Story, featuring Alice.

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Buy the book “The Once and Future Witch: A Descendants Reckoning from Salem to the Present” By Alice Markham Cantor

https://www.alicemarkhamcantor.com

https://awitchstory.com

United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks

Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization

‘Witch Hunt’ Podcast Episode: Ending Sorcery Accusation Related Violence in Papua New Guinea with Miranda Forsyth

‘The Briefing’ Podcast Episode: Why Witch Hunts are Still Happening in 2024 with Miranda Forsyth

End Witch Hunts

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

Transcript

0086 Alice Markham-Cantor Download

May 7, 2024
The Intersection of Spiritual Belief and Gender Roles in Hinduism with Akanksha Madaan and Amit Anand

This comprehensive discussion brings together experts Dr. Akanksha Madaan and Dr. Amit Anand, focusing on witch hunts, the intersection of spirituality and gender roles in societies, particularly within Hinduism, and comparisons with African contexts. Dr. Madaan, an Assistant Professor of Law with extensive study in Victimology, and Dr. Anand, also an Assistant Professor who has researched violence against women in India, including aspects of witchcraft and honor-based abuse, discuss the historical and sociocultural facets of witch-hunting. They examine how witch hunts have been influenced by various factors, including patriarchal structures, lack of education, and misconceptions about religious and spiritual practices. The conversation extends beyond India, touching on similar practices in Africa and drawing parallels to historical European witch trials, highlighting the universal scapegoating of women in such accusations. The discussion underscores the complexity of tackling witch hunts, calling for multidimensional approaches involving law, education, and community engagement to address this grave human rights issue.

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Show Notes

Street Play on Witch Hunting by I-CARD

Film: Testimony of Ana

End Witch Hunts

AVARNAN | SHORT FILM | NAVEEN SURESH | AMAL OSCAR | SHAMAL CHACKO | VISHNU SUJATHAN – YouTube

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

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The Intersection of Spiritual Belief and Gender Roles in Hinduism with Akanksha Madaan and Amit Anand Download

May 3, 2024
Harmful Traditional Practices with Naveen Suresh and Samantha Spence

This episode features a comprehensive discussion on superstitions and their impact on child rights in India, specifically focusing on the harmful ritual of Pillai Thookkam. The guests, Naveen Suresh, a PhD researcher on anti-superstition law in India, and Dr. Samantha Spence, an expert in human rights law, dive into the legal, cultural, and psychological aspects of superstitions and their enforcement. Naveen shares unsettling details about Pillai Thookkam, a ritual involving putting babies at risk without safety measures, to highlight the severe neglect of child rights under the guise of tradition. Both guests discuss the complexities of applying existing laws against such practices, emphasizing the importance of scientific temper, education, and mental health awareness. The episode concludes with insights into how media and education can play pivotal roles in combating superstitions and fostering a rational and empathetic societal outlook towards child welfare.

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⁠Street Play on Witch Hunting by I-CARD⁠

⁠Film: Testimony of Ana⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠AVARNAN (The Colorless People) | SHORT FILM | NAVEEN SURESH⁠

⁠Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past⁠

⁠The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠Grassroots organizations working with The International Network⁠

⁠International Alliance to End Witch Hunts⁠

Transcript

Harmful Traditional Practices with Naveen Suresh and Samantha Spence Download

April 23, 2024
Cotton Mather and the Demoniac with Brendan Walsh

In today’s episode, we sit down with Brendan Walsh, an expert in Early Modern Intellectual History and Religion to examine a chilling account of a 17th century demonic child possession in Connecticut, as chronicled in Cotton Mather’s “Memorable Providences Relating To Witchcrafts And Possessions.” Brendan takes us through the golden age of demonic possession, spotlighting significant figures such as the English exorcist John Darrell and notorious New England minister Cotton Mather.
As we consider the account of the “Boy of Tocutt,” Brendan elucidates how such reports reflect the fundamental Puritan perceptions of the diabolical or malevolent and their assault on the spiritually weak. Join us for a fascinating journey into the past, exploring how immemorial beliefs in witchcraft, the devil’s pact, demonic obsession and possession continue to shape our understanding of evil in our society and ourselves.

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“The Boy of Tocutt” and the Demonic Covenant in Seventeenth-Century New England Demonology

Memorable Providences Relating to Witchcrafts and Possessions

Salem Witch-Hunt Daily Report

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Transcript

0083 Brendan Walsh Download

April 16, 2024

The Ultimate Introduction to the Salem Witch Trials: Salem Witch-Hunt 101 Part 1

Witch Hunt presents “The Ultimate Introduction to the Salem Witch Trials,” the first episode of the Salem Witch-Hunt 101 series. This episode provides a comprehensive overview of the Salem Witch Trials, emphasizing the event’s extensive reach, the variety of people involved, and its unique characteristics compared to other witch hunts in history. We discuss the origins and progression of the witch hunt, debunking myths and shedding light on the social, legal, and political factors feeding the crisis. Also covered are some of the key accusers, victims, opposition, and lasting legacy of the trials, with an emphasis on the importance of remembrance and learning from this dark chapter in history.

Hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack, descendants of people hanged for witchcraft in the Salem Witch-Hunt, welcome you to explore the witch-hunt in great detail in this episode and the rest of the series. Look for much more in-depth Salem coverage over the coming months and years.

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A Storm of Witchcraft: The Salem Trials and the American Experience by Emerson W. Baker

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The Salem Witch Trials: A Day-By-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege by Marilynne K. Roach

Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt by Bernard Rosenthal, editor

The Ruin of All Witches: Life and Death in the New World by Malcolm Gaskill

Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials by Marion Gibson

The Once & Future Witch Hunt: A Descendant’s Reckoning from Salem to the Present by Alice Markham-Cantor

Marion Gibson on Witchcraft A History in 13 Trials

Owen Davies on Grimoires, Magic, and Witch Hunts

Finding Your Salem Witch Trial Ancestors with David Allen Lambert

Malcolm Gaskill on The Ruin of All Witches

Salem Witch-Hunt 101 Bibliography

Transcript

0082 The Ultimate Introduction to the Salem Witch Trials (Salem Witch-Hunt 101 Part 1)Download

April 10, 2024

Witchcraft Accusations in Ghana with John Azumah

Joined by John Azumah, an expert who sheds light on the origins and societal impacts of witchcraft accusations, we navigate the intricate landscape of family disputes, community fears, and the national efforts to combat this grave injustice. Our journey takes us into the heart of communities torn apart by fear and suspicion, where accusations of witchcraft have long led to banishment and the resulting formation of ‘witch camps.’ Azumah’s insights offer a profound look at the cultural and societal dynamics that perpetuate these practices, as well as the ongoing struggles to reintegrate victims into their communities amidst threats of re-accusation and violence. This episode is a deep dive into the efforts at various levels to address and hopefully eradicate the stigma and harm caused by these ancient accusations, highlighting the urgent need for reform and protective measures for those unjustly accused.

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Recommended Reading

United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks

Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization

Websites of Note

The Sanneh Institute: Research, Religious, Society

Total Life Enhancement Center, Ghana

Songtaba.org Securing Basic Rights for Women and Girls

Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom

Action Aid Ghana

Legal Resource Centre Ghana

Amnesty International, Ghana

End Witch Hunts

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

Transcript

0081 John Azumah Download

April 2, 2024
Detestable and Wicked Arts with Paul Moyer

Paul Moyer delves into New England’s witch-hunt history this week on Witch Hunt. Drawing from his book, Detestable and Wicked Arts, Moyer discusses the origins of witchcraft beliefs, transatlantic connections, and infamous trials like Salem and Hartford. Learn about the societal pressures behind these hunts, from religious conflicts to political turmoil, and gain new insights into this haunting chapter of American history. How did heavy societal expectations on family and marriage bring out the hunting of diabolical duos, couples accused of being witches? Paul Moyer discusses his upcoming book about a gripping murder case set in antebellum America, an enthralling history with themes of social justice and defiance of gender norms.

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0080 Paul Moyer Download

March 28, 2024

Stacy Schiff on the Salem Witch Trials

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Show Notes

Pulitzer-prize-winning author Stacy Schiff joins hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack for a dive into the heart of the Salem Witch Trials on this week’s episode of Witch Hunt. Celebrated for her book, The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem, Stacy sheds light on the trials’ misunderstandings, explores their actual origins, and spotlights the pivotal individuals involved. Her insights and story telling make history accessible and engaging. Together, they reflect on the timely relevance of lessons learned from the Salem Witch Trials.

StacySchiff.com

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
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Transcript

Stacy Schiff: [00:00:00] There had been witchcraft accusations before, there had been outbreaks of witchcraft before. Never before had there been this kind of prosecution where no one who walked into that courtroom exited innocent.
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt. I'm Josh Hutchinson, but you can also call me excited. We get to talk about Salem today!
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. In this episode, we are joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Stacy Schiff.
Josh Hutchinson: Schiff is the author of six books, including The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem.
Sarah Jack: In this exciting conversation, Stacy clears up some major misconceptions about the witch hunt.
Josh Hutchinson: And reviews many of the theories [00:01:00] that have been proposed to explain what started the witch hunt.
Sarah Jack: And you're about to hear the factors that really did shape the witch hunt.
Josh Hutchinson: And we'll learn about many significant actors, including Tituba, in this conversation with discussion of the roles that they played.
Sarah Jack: It was such a treat to get to hear about her research process and approach to making historical events so understandable.
Josh Hutchinson: Together, we reflect on key lessons from the Salem witch hunt.
Sarah Jack: Welcome Stacy Schiff, Pulitzer Prize-winning author known for her compelling narratives and deep research into historical events and figures. Her notable works include The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem.
Sarah Jack: What are some major misconceptions people have about the Salem Witch Trials?
Stacy Schiff: Oh, my goodness, it's such a, it's a long and distinguished list, isn't it? I think generally people tend to [00:02:00] assume that people burned, not hanged. So I think that's the first one. I think the general assumption is that all the victims were women, but as we know, five men were also victims that year. They were not universally poor women, they were not older women. They were, there was a 5-year-old accused as well.
Stacy Schiff: Because I think we take a lot of what we understand to have been the history from Arthur Miller, I think we have assumed that voodoo and naked dancing in the forest were part of it, and that's taken from The Crucible, either the play or the movie, not from the actual events of 1692. And I think the word Salem is slightly misleading because 25 communities wind up being implicated, being involved in any case, not only the town of Salem. And I guess the biggest misconception is that there were witches, of which there were none.
Josh Hutchinson: And what are some of the theories about how the Salem witch hunt happened?
Stacy Schiff: I think that the epidemic that year, the panic that year, has been pretty much written down [00:03:00] to anything you can possibly think of, from regional hostilities, to class conflict, to tensions within the church, to food poisoning, to teenage hysteria, to fraud, to taxes, political instability, trauma due to the frontier with the Native Americans, the weather. You could go mad actually staring at the events and trying to pick a pattern. As with all things, if you're really looking for a pattern, you can almost always find one, which is something of a key to what happens that year.
Stacy Schiff: So I think many of those things have been applied and then discarded. And I think we can get into this. One of the issues, of course, with that year is that so many forces come into play that it isn't predominantly actually one thing. There isn't a key. As much as we would like for there to be one, there isn't a key to the Salem witch epidemic of that year.
Sarah Jack: And how did you manage to clarify the true causes behind the witch trials? You made them so easy to understand for the readers, despite the reputation for [00:04:00] the mystery and the complexity.
Stacy Schiff: Thanks Sarah, that's a lovely, it's a lovely way to put it. I hope it's clear. I think what I did is that when I started the research, I read through all of the paper that survives, and it's about a thousand pages of, as the court papers are missing, but we have about a thousand pages of arrest documents or depositions or jailers' accountings. We have about a thousand pages of paper, and I read through all of that, and try to make that material really speak for itself in some way, because you can see the story mutating from beginning to end. What initially passes for witchcraft when the first girls are afflicted is not what will be discussed as witchcraft by late summer when this thing has really snowballed to just tremendous effect. So you can begin to tease out who's carrying the narrative and how the narrative twists and turns and what the sources of that are.
Stacy Schiff: And I guess to that end, I would say 2 things. I would say. I went back and I read all [00:05:00] eight or nine, I can't remember any longer, volumes of the records and files of the quarterly courts of Essex County, which is not, it's to the years prior to 1692, but it is a complete record of all of the, these are very litigious people, these are all of the collisions in court that all of these families had over these years. And the same issues and the same names come up as you will later see in some of the witchcraft accusations. So that was almost like a template to both the sensibility and the history of these people.
Stacy Schiff: It's interesting that about half of the women who hang had been accused previously of witchcraft. There's obviously some lingering resentment or some lingering questions here. And then the other, from a textual point of view, the other great guide was the writings of Cotton Mather, the minister who's at the center, the young minister who is at the center of the trials, and who had written a bestseller in which he had incorporated an account of the European witchcraft, Swedish witchcraft panic of years earlier, which [00:06:00] infiltrates the New England drinking water and which bears a mark on Salem. I think there's actually, I think, a great doctoral thesis to be written about this, because he imports elements from Sweden that had never before been seen in any kind of New England witchcraft testimony.
Stacy Schiff: That's a long answer to your extremely good question, but that was how I began to decode it. You can see, I read all of the sermons that the girls would have heard that year, and you can see bits and pieces of that sermon in their testimony. You can see that they're recycling the imagery that they've heard on Sundays.
Josh Hutchinson: And what were some of the factors which actually did lead to the Salem witch trials?
Stacy Schiff: Guess the chief ones, this is an overdetermined event. It's very hard, as I said, to tease one thing or another thing out. I would say more than anything, the question that year becomes not what was afflicting these young women, but why was the court so intent on prosecution?
Stacy Schiff: Because there had been witchcraft accusations before, there had been outbreaks of witchcraft before. Never before had there been this kind of [00:07:00] prosecution where no one who walked into that courtroom exited innocent. And for that, I would say that it was something of the political environment which makes that year stand apart. You have on this court a group of men who, for reasons of their own, given political instability of the previous few years, need to prove they are a law and order administration. And in particular, the Chief Justice of the Court, who has been something of a political, he's been very ambidextrous politically. He's played both sides repeatedly. needs to prove that he is solely in command and is not going to relax his hold. And he is the one who's pushing, it's very clear to us, he's the one who's pushing for convictions. So I think that the politics is something that we haven't necessarily paid enough attention to in the past.
Stacy Schiff: I think, as I said, some of those earlier accusations, some of that sense of suspicion that had never really been dissipated before. And you really do have a community that's very much under fire. Salem Village, which is where the first girls begin to show [00:08:00] signs of some sort of affliction of some disorder, is a village that has had serious trouble with its ministers, and in different ways, all of those prior ministers will play a role in what happens this year, but the minister in whose household the witchcraft, so to speak, breaks out, is under siege with his, in his community. He's at war with his parishioners and he's very much driving these events forward in some ways.
Sarah Jack: Were there any other primary actors who caused the witch trials to proceed as they did? And if you're interested in following that with what halted the witch trials?
Stacy Schiff: So yeah, I think you could probably draw something of a schematic if you wanted to just take like the, how does this thing snowball? What are the bases it has to hit, to, to produce this storm of accusations? And I think household under siege, obviously, it's a hothouse environment. You have these girls living in a situation where they can see that their father and uncle is in disfavor with the community, [00:09:00] so there's a sense of an explosion within that household. One of the first people accused, as you know, was Tituba, the Indian slave in the household. And Tituba's testimony is so vivid and so kaleidoscopic and so convincing that once she, and moreover, she establishes, she's the one of the only one of the three first accused who says, yes, witchcraft was at work. Yes, I flew on a pole to Boston with my accomplices. And moreover, I saw these spectral cats. It's a crazy testimony. Once she has established in the eyes of the community that witchcraft has been at work, it's very hard for anybody to reverse course. So that's another sort of post on the way. And then one of the first girls who testifies, a teenager named Abigail Hobbs, who's the bad girl of Topsfield, she then spreads the accusations out beyond Salem Village, because she suddenly points a finger to, toward a former minister of the town, of the village, in fact.
Stacy Schiff: And so there you begin [00:10:00] to see that the thing has tentacles, and it begins to spread beyond the immediate household. And then I guess the, I should add actually, Thomas Putnam, one of the villagers, who has had a run of terrible luck, and who will complain against, I think, 35 of the ultimate accused witches, and who will file the first charges, he does something as well to help this thing explode. And then from the other side, you have the head of the witchcraft court, Stoughton, and you have Cotton Mather, who's always in the background, trying very hard to help advise the court, but always in a way that seems to press them toward prosecution. As much as he's pretending to be even handed, he seems quite intent on somehow exorcising this ill and purifying the community. So you have these other forces that are both massaging the narrative and enforcing the prosecution.
Josh Hutchinson: It's hard to say what single element shuts down the prosecution. A [00:11:00] number of things happen, and I think the timing is crucial, as well. The trials, the witchcraft breaks out in late January, early February. The trials take place largely over the summer. And by fall, the accusations have begun to spread in every direction.
Stacy Schiff: We've got to the point where it is far easier to accuse someone else or to confess than it is to claim your innocence. And so obviously in that situation, the snowballing is out of control. It's also, however, the fall, which is traditionally the season when you wanted to make sure that you had plenty of stores in your cellar and you were ready for the winter, and so the interest in spending all day in witchcraft courtrooms tended to wane a little bit. So it may be that a healthy dose of skepticism begins to creep in for practical reasons.
Stacy Schiff: It's also true that the newly appointed, newly installed Massachusetts governor is not a Puritan. He doesn't buy into these trials the way the other authorities had, and he reaches out late that year to the New York ministers to get their opinion on what's happening in [00:12:00] Salem. And that's the first attempt to go beyond the kind of monolith, which is the New England establishment. And their opinion is very different from what the judges in Massachusetts are hearing. So you get this outside opinion, as well.
Stacy Schiff: And slowly but surely you get people in the community, and Thomas Brattle would be the best instance of this. He's a 35-year-old Boston merchant who doesn't have any relationship to any of the other well born justices, which is unusual, because they are a very inbred, familiar group one to the other, and who realizes that basically if someone gives testimony with her eyes closed, she's not observing what's happening, she's imagining something, and sees that a great miscarriage of justice is taking place and will be very hard to erase from history and very quietly, and in fact anonymously, he writes a small pamphlet about the court's proceedings, and he is one of two voices.
Stacy Schiff: There's a Boston minister as well, also very quietly, who will begin to speak up against the trials, and it may be that at that point, the [00:13:00] accusations have just reached a very high level, and too many important people have been implicated. It may just be that it begins to stretch the imagination. At first, there had been 5 witches, and then there had been 10 witches, and suddenly there were 500 witches.
Stacy Schiff: And it may be, it's as if suddenly everyone awoke from this great delirium is what it does begin to feel like. But even at that juncture, there are two things that are interesting. One is that Stoughton, the Chief Justice, is unwilling to shut down the court, and he has to be forced to shut down the court, because he's convinced still of his rectitude and of the court's probity in prosecuting.
Stacy Schiff: And secondly, and this, I think, is something we tend to lose sight of. The belief in witchcraft will persist well after the trials. People believe that they themselves were innocent or that the accused that year were innocent, but they don't yet lose their faith in witchcraft. It's an interesting thing where the trials end, but there is still this lingering sense that there was something supernatural at work.
Josh Hutchinson: And there's still a lot of supernatural [00:14:00] explanations for Salem. Sarah was talking to somebody the other day who was asking, did they have powers?
Stacy Schiff: When you see, when you begin to read the testimony in court, I don't know if you all have household mysteries the way we do, but the kitchen scissors always goes missing. Who's got the kitchen scissors? You begin to realize how much can be explained by witchcraft. It's such an elastic and versatile definition, and especially in a world where you didn't have science, where you couldn't explain illness, where weather was not something you could understand, much less control, where things seem to happen in the night, where there was a lot of drinking, by the way, where the dark was very dark, where you had Native Americans or people with whom you were at, with whom you had conflicts at your doorstep, you can see how this would be the perfect cauldron in which to dissolve your questions.
Sarah Jack: How should Tituba's station in life and experiences, especially in contrast to those of the Puritan [00:15:00] women, inform our understanding of her role in the witch trials?
Stacy Schiff: Three women are initially accused, and they are the three most obvious women one would have chosen. One is a, one is a woman who's homeless, one is a woman who'd been at, who had sued multiple times and was in disfavor in the community, and the third was Tituba, who's who's the household slave.
Stacy Schiff: And who would have had more, she's the only one of the three, as I said, who actually confesses that she is involved in something satanic, and would have had more reason, obviously, than either of the other two women, to give these men in authority what they were looking for. It's really clear when you look at the papers, how much these young women, in particular, how much all the youngsters really were cowed by these men in authority. These were the most eminent men in town. They lived in the most beautiful homes. They dressedwith the greatest of fashion. And their authority would've been something very difficult to resist for anyone but much less someone who was a slave.
Stacy Schiff: Tituba [00:16:00] has every reason to cough up this extraordinary tale about yellow birds and flying cats and flying off to Boston on a pole. She makes it very clear that the devil has said that if she talked about this, he would slice off her head. So she sounds like she's terrified of something anyway and that testimony possibly was beaten out of her, but even if it wasn't beaten out of her, there's one hint that perhaps it may have been.
Stacy Schiff: Those men knew what they were about to hear, because there were at least three people sitting in the room that day waiting for her to testify. So they knew that this was the goldmine, that she was going to be the witness who was going to make this thing real. It's very hard to believe she would have had any grounds with which to resist them given her station in life.
Josh Hutchinson: Very true. And I have to fess up that my great grandfather, Joseph Hutchinson, was one who filed the complaint along with Thomas Putnam.
Stacy Schiff: I love that. [00:17:00] Wait, are you related to Thomas Hutchinson, too?
Josh Hutchinson: No there's the. Yeah, Salem Hutchinsons and Boston Hutchinsons, and so far, genetically, nobody's found a DNA connection between the two. Anyways, what key lessons should be learned from the Salem witch hunt and applied today?
Stacy Schiff: I suppose we should avoid jumping to conclusions. This is what happens when fear paralyzes reason and when we overcorrect and sort of overanalyze and, I guess what the best that could be said for this real mishap, this tragedy, is that it should serve as a sort of vaccine for us all. We have this instance in our record. We should be looking at it and using it when we think we might be heading in this direction. So we don't end up with McCarthyism, basically. We've seen this, we've seen the dynamic so vividly so often. And it is so clearly where you end up going if you head down the road of conspiratorial thinking. This is the end of the road.
Stacy Schiff: And, as early as [00:18:00] really Thomas Brattle's writings that year, people were very aware of the fact that this was something that was going to be a stain on history, and that was going to be there a blinking red light or a guardrail for future times, which is a, which is indeed how we should be looking at it.
Stacy Schiff: It's always been interesting to me, it's very much in line with Richard Hofstadter's Paranoid Style in American Politics, but it doesn't figure in that book. But it really is the beginning of that this overheated rhetoric and the need, this tribal need to prosecute in some way and the inability to basically defer to reason when you realize that the reasonable is actually the right solution, somehow the complicated answer seems somehow like the more appealing answer often.
Sarah Jack: I wanted to talk a little bit about how you brought out some really strong themes in your book, like the darkness or the tension between people's expectations and disappointments with each other. What, how did you [00:19:00] draw those out into the forefront of your book?
Stacy Schiff: I don't know that I have an exact answer for you. I think what was important to me was to get beyond the theory. I wanted the reader to feel something of what it was like to be in New England in the 17th century, and that is why the darkness became such an obsession of mine, because so much of the testimony is based on a man trying to find his way home from the inn at night and being able to, unable to maneuver through the trees and, therefore, assuming the trees have moved, not that he might have had a few too many drinks earlier himself. But that the darkness is just constant and a sort of disability almost to everyone. So I wanted to bypass the theory at the early end of the book, leave all the explanations to the end, which may or may not have been successful, but just to plunge the reader immediately into what it felt like.
Stacy Schiff: That's why the book begins with Ann Foster, who, and I think I read fairly early on of Ann Foster, who's this older, Andover [00:20:00] farm woman who testifies in court under oath to the fact that she flew through the air on a pole, and moreover, not only flew through the air on a pole, but crash landed. I wanted the reader to think what would possess a person to swear to that under oath? How could you be so certain that this had happened and even tell the authorities about the cheese and bread you had put in your pocket before your flight? So I just wanted to literally plunge right into that New England feel and into this, into where, how a person could wind up believing that of herself, or at least believing that if she swore to that, she was telling the truth.
Josh Hutchinson: On the flying, you had mentioned the Swedish witch trials before, and is the flying, did that come from Sweden?
Stacy Schiff: Oh, I'm so glad you asked because I should have mentioned that, Joshua. Yes, there had never, witches in New England had never flown before 1692. So there were two things that were new. Basically the whole, and I should have gone back to mention this, the whole question of what was a [00:21:00] witch? A witch was basically a devil's accomplice who's target wasn't your body, but your soul. She or he was there to do the devil's work with her little menagerie of helpers who were generally cats and dogs and toads and all the diabolical creatures we can imagine, but the idea of a pact with the devil was very much an Anglo-Saxon concept, while the idea of a witch being able to fly to do her business was not. That was a continental witch.
Stacy Schiff: And continental witches tended to be much more exotic creatures. They engaged in all kinds of sexual acts. Puritan witches never engaged in sexual acts. And they did not have, Anglo-Saxon witches did not have a satanic Sabbath. That, too, was a continental idea. So both the flying and the satanic Sabbath came to New England, it seems to me, through the writings of Cotton Mather, who wrote about that Swedish outbreak of witchcraft, which almost completely parallels what happens in Salem down to the ages of [00:22:00] the first girls who are afflicted, first children who are afflicted, and with very similar results, in fact, in that innocents die. But those two concepts were something that were entirely foreign to previous, both the lore of witchcraft in New England, and to previous witchcraft testimony.
Sarah Jack: Having written extensively on various historical figures and events, how does your latest project, The Revolutionary: Samuel Adams, compare to your other works in terms of research challenges or thematic focus and the narrative approach you take?
Stacy Schiff: That's a big question, Sarah. To start with the thematic piece, there's a funny footnote in a way to the, with the American Revolution in that Salem lives on. And that's an interesting thing with Salem generally is to see how it then gets recycled and used by different parts of the country.
Stacy Schiff: Abolitionists will end up saying that basically slavery is on par with, essentially, hanging witches and pro slavery people in the South will basically point to New England and say abolition is on [00:23:00] par with, and they'll say the opposite. So both sides will end up going back to cite Salem witchcraft.
Stacy Schiff: But in the run up to the Revolution, as Stamp Act protests and other protests take off, an extraordinary number of people compare the moment to the delusion of 1692. So you get this constant drumbeat of things that there has never been this much unrest. There has never been such delusion. People have never been so mad since the Bedlam of 1692. And it's just funny to see that there's a comparison between Stamp Act protests and trying witches in the court in Salem town.
Stacy Schiff: From a research point of view, I was at a great loss, because although there are things missing from the Salem record, Samuel Adams' papers are very incomplete. He destroyed a lot of paper, because he needed to destroy his trail, because he's obviously fomenting revolution. So there is a no fingerprint school at work here, and I was working from a somewhat mutilated record for that reason. So that was a big challenge, and a challenge that I ended up filling by reading a [00:24:00] lot in the archives in London, which are essentially what his enemies were saying about him. So he would never claim credit, for example, for some misdeed, some street protest or street ambush. But you can be certain that the customs commissioners in Boston or the Lieutenant Governor in Boston was writing back to London saying, 'let me tell you what this rascal Samuel Adams is up to this week.'
Stacy Schiff: So I ended up being able to fill in a certain amount of his whereabouts and his machinations from the other side, with a grain of salt, I should add. And there was a great deal. I think this is a big difference between the two. There's a great deal of Adams in the newspapers, because he's writing constantly for the Boston newspapers, and one of the reasons the Revolution takes off, as it does from Boston, is because there are so many newspapers and such a literate populace.
Stacy Schiff: And that, in a funny way, is a fallout from something that was true in 1692. You didn't have newspapers in 1692, but you did have a highly literate populace, because in order to pray, you needed to know how to read. And it is, in [00:25:00] a funny way, that very erudition that fuels the Salem Witch epidemic, because people have bought into this library of books which Cotton Mather brings to the forefront and which these men are consulting.
Stacy Schiff: And so they have these shelves of literature on witchcraft. What they don't have are the skeptical texts on witchcraft, because those had been banned from coming into Boston. So in a funny way, you have a case of too much erudition. But anyway, it's that very, it's that literate tradition which flows obviously from one book to the other.
Josh Hutchinson: And Cotton Mather, ironically, spurred a lot of the activity on by writing about the other events. So you have the Swedish trials and the Goodwin case, and they're all feeding into the behaviors of these afflicted people. So Cotton was involved from the beginning, I suppose.
Stacy Schiff: It's funny, the court appeals to him, I think, three times. I'm now forgetting, but I think it's three times. And [00:26:00] three times, he basically says, you need to go very carefully, you need to exercise exquisite caution. And then he adds, nevertheless, I would vote for a speedy and vigorous prosecution. And there's always that nevertheless attached to each of his statements. And after the trials, there is a document and I no longer remember if it's 1694 or if it's later, where he talks about how essentially the trials had done good, because they had filled the pews, and they had awakened a sluggish generation to its faith, and really nobody who mattered had been lost in the process. It's not a statement had been meant for public consumption, but it tells you something of how the establishment viewed both the victims and the prosecution.
Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable.
Sarah Jack: How do you hope your books impact reader understanding of history and its relevance to the present?
Stacy Schiff: I called the trials a kind of vaccine. I like to think this is something of which we don't lose sight, so that we do not repeat this kind of [00:27:00] demented behavior, but generally, on a sort of happier front, I'd like to think that there's something about biography that allows one to open the window to history from a more personal point of view. In other words, through the sensibility of the individual in question, so that if you can see something like the strains and the tensions in the family of someone like Samuel Adams, you can begin to understand why someone would feel so deeply wed to American rights and privileges and so deeply sensitive to British overreach, and therefore begin to publish the kind of supposedly seditious statements that he publishes, and really spearhead what becomes a revolution. Why this cause becomes so very vital to him. And you don't really understand that if you don't really understand sort of the personal history that goes behind it. And I think we lose that sometimes when we talk about history from a higher altitude. I think when you're seeing it through the sensibility of one person, whether that person is [00:28:00] Cleopatra or Samuel Adams, you begin to understand those forces better.
Josh Hutchinson: And what subjects or events are you drawn to explore next? Is there anything that you can tell us about?
Stacy Schiff: I am working on a new book. Interestingly or not, it's actually a return to a subject, something I've never done before, it's a book about, it's another book about Benjamin Franklin, and this time it's about, the previous time I had written about the almost nine years that Franklin spends in France soliciting aid and and guns and men for the revolution, and he comes home in 1785 from that stint and will die in 1790. So this is a book which is going to tell the story of his life through those last five Philadelphia years. So it's really sort of the finale. It's Franklin's last act in a way.
Josh Hutchinson: I'm looking forward to that.
Stacy Schiff: Thank you. So am I. I'm looking forward to having written it, to being on the other side of it.
Sarah Jack: Thank you for your work in your book, but your work today too, [00:29:00] the getting this information out and dissecting it like this is just really key for the world. So I know it sounds dramatic, but
Stacy Schiff: No, it's not. And the one thing we didn't talk about, and to your point, is the silence that comes, that descends after this wipe out, right? Because for a generation, nobody would talk about it. Exoneration was impossible, because people were unwilling even to admit that they were related to victims of the trials.
Stacy Schiff: So you, even in those first, attempts So when you look at attempts at getting reparations for families in 1711, families avoiding the word witchcraft. It's basically, I lost my relative in the recent unpleasantness is essentially what they're saying. And that whole sort of cushion of shame and regret that falls, guilt that descends on the scene afterwards means that so much has been lost to us, so much of the history has been lost to us, so much of the record goes missing, because everyone just wanted to pretend this had [00:30:00] never happened.
Stacy Schiff: And I guess that's why, when we're saying this is really crucial for us to bring back to the forefront, there's your reason.
Stacy Schiff: And now, for Minute with Mary.
Mary Louise Bingham: Let me update you about Female Gleason. We found that Susanna, wife of Thomas Gleason. All the records were found proving she lived at Cambridge in 1665, when she was supposed to have been accused for witchcraft. However, the author who listed a Female Gleason accused for witchcraft in their book did not cite their source. We have reached out to that author, who has yet to respond. However, our team didn't stop. Contact was made with both the Massachusetts State Archives and the Judicial Archives. These archivists exhausted all their resources and could not locate any document tying an accusation to any woman with the surname Gleason.
Mary Louise Bingham: Therefore, until we [00:31:00] hear from this author, it can be declared as of this recording that no woman named Gleason was ever accused of witchcraft who lived at Cambridge, Massachusetts, or in any surrounding town. This is why looking at the original source or primary document is so important. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts News. We want to extend our heartfelt gratitude to each and every one of you for your unwavering support for this growing nonprofit. Your monetary donations and the invaluable time you've dedicated as volunteers have been pivotal in fueling the growth of our vital projects. It's through your contributions of time and money that we're able to continue our mission, bringing to light critical lessons from history, and fostering a deeper acknowledgment of witch-hunting today.
Sarah Jack: Your involvement not only aids in amplifying this history, but [00:32:00] also in ensuring that the lessons derived from it resonate far wide and clearly. Thank you for being an integral part of our journey and for your commitment to helping us make a meaningful impact worldwide. Your engagement is what makes all of this possible, and we're immensely grateful for the community we've built together.
Sarah Jack: We're thrilled to announce the upcoming Salem 101 series on witch hunt podcasts. This original series is a comprehensive deep dive into the Salem witch trials written by Josh Hutchinson, also known as @salemwitchhunt on social media, each episode promises to peel back the layers of this unmatched account of community betrayal, guided by the records and writings that have propelled the story to this day. Join us, Salem Witch Trial Descendants, as we examine the year these events unfolded. Join us as we look closely at the fascinating individuals that many of us call ancestors. We will tackle the pressing questions that have intrigued the world, revealing insights that have led to the [00:33:00] current understanding of the Salem Witch Trials. For those eager to broaden their knowledge, we encourage you to explore our past catalog of episodes. These recordings offer an insightful introduction to the subject and cover witch trials that predate Salem, setting the stage for this monumental series.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us again every week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

March 19, 2024

Newcastle Witch Trials with Dr. Katie Liddane

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Show Notes

In this week’s captivating episode, we are excited to welcome Dr. Katie Liddane, an expert in the History and Heritage of Witch Hunting in the North East of England. Katie takes us through her research and her dedicated efforts to illuminate the Newcastle Witch Trials. We delve into why the Newcastle Witch-Hunt remains less known compared to events like the Pendle Witch-Hunt and discuss Newcastle Castle’s creative approach to engaging the community with workshops on witch trial history. Katie also talks about her active role in creating a memorial for the victims of the Newcastle witch trials, stressing the importance of community involvement and historical fidelity. She sheds light on the necessity of merging historical accuracy with the pop-cultural fascination with witchcraft to fully honor and recognize the humanity of the accused. Join us as we explore an intricate blend of history, memory, and cultural engagement in remembering past witch hunts.

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Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, where we unravel the complex global history of witch trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we are excited to bring you a special discussion from Dr. Katie Liddane.
Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane takes us through the Newcastle Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: And tells us about her witch trial history workshop at Newcastle Castle, attended by sixth-year students.
Josh Hutchinson: We also explore why the Newcastle Witch Hunt has been overlooked by many, while the Pendle Witch Trials are much more widely known.
Sarah Jack: This conversation is so engaging, you may catch yourself trying to join in with us.
Josh Hutchinson: And we don't mind if you do.
Sarah Jack: Yay!
Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane's work highlights the large absence [00:01:00] and sense of obscurity around neglected historical events like witch trials, especially when pitted against the more renowned historical events.
Sarah Jack: Dr. Liddane emphasizes the importance of remembering our past and memorializing those accused of witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: One of her outreach efforts has been to dress the part of a 17th century woman accused of witchcraft and lead castle tours.
Sarah Jack: Be sure to check out her social media so you can see her in costume. It's awesome.
Josh Hutchinson: It is.
Sarah Jack: Welcome Dr. Katie Liddane. Her expertise spans witchcraft history, folklore, historical fiction, and the intriguing realm of gothic tourism. Her research and creative projects focus on 17th century northeast English witchcraft, and she obtained a PhD from Northumbria University.
Sarah Jack: Could you please introduce yourself and share with the listeners your background, expertise, and professional journey?
Katie Liddane: I'm Katie Liddane. I [00:02:00] recently graduated with my doctorate in December of last year in the History and Heritage of Witch-Hunting in the North East of England. Witch Persecution, I think is in the title. I've been at Northumbria for all three of my degrees and was fortunate enough to get scholarships for both postgraduate degrees. And I guess in the more heritage side of my studies and my experience, I started an internship while I was awaiting the start of my PhD that showed me how heavily influenced by industrial heritage and the Northeast as a center for working class communities and scientific innovation had really eclipsed a lot of the other historical events in Newcastle, including the witch trials.
Katie Liddane: Because the first time I'd heard of the [00:03:00] Newcastle Witch Trials was through a local newspaper article that was from 2008 but had been republished in around 2016 or so. And it was a very brief article that did send me rolling my eyes a little bit, because the article was about the bones of those convicted of witchcraft being accidentally excavated, and the article describes some of the archaeologists or workmen there getting a rash from the bones and describing it as a curse.
Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
Katie Liddane: So
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
Katie Liddane: I found that obviously quite a problematic coverage, so I went in search for more to find out more about the Newcastle witches and then to understand how such a large absence and sense of obscurity had developed, especially in comparison with the Pendle Witches that are much more [00:04:00] famous in cultural memory. And I kind of had the idea and the curiosity and then found an opportunity that would fit to allow me to explore it for so long and write about it.
Josh Hutchinson: What a strange thing to put in a newspaper article, getting a rash from handling accused person's bones.
Katie Liddane: And it's not even entirely clear that it was the bones of those convicted of witchcraft. It was just in the general area that we think that the convicted were buried. And again, the article's around Halloween. So I think it was just a kind of spooky ending of the article.
Katie Liddane:
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yeah. There's always those Halloween articles
Josh Hutchinson: Every year.
Katie Liddane: Yeah. And in terms of what I'd done before the PhD and before working at the North of England Institute for Mining [00:05:00] and Mechanical Engineers, there's an abbreviation for a reason, I had done a Master's of Research in the Heritage Management and History of Crossbones Graveyard in Southwark in London.
Katie Liddane: Have you heard of Crossbones before?
Josh Hutchinson: No, haven't heard before.
Katie Liddane: It's hailed as I think the first sex worker heritage site. And that's because Southwark had a long history as an area for licensed sex work in the medieval period. And Crossbones was a pauper's graveyard for centuries, the kind of two histories had become conflated. And again, it was through the discovery of bones that interest in the site was reignited. I think it was during an Tube in the 1990s that they discovered a pauper's graveyard, and so that kind of gave me, [00:06:00] that masters gave me my foundation to explore the history of the site and the people associated with it, but also how that history morphs through heritage attractions and fiction and public history. So I can see quite a clear link between the two subjects, even though they're like quite different areas of history.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. Is there any links there that you want to talk about?
Katie Liddane: I guess just a shared background of subjects that are usually considered women's history or gendered history, sex work and witchcraft, and the histories, heritage attractions, and businesses sometimes built around the memorialization or lack thereof of marginalized people. But at that time, I'd like to say it was part of a grand scheme, but at that time I'd lived in Newcastle for at least three years and hadn't [00:07:00] heard of the Newcastle witches before. And a lot of people still haven't. So it's been very recently that people are starting to become aware that Newcastle had witch trials. Some people in the town don't even know that Newcastle has a castle. It's something that I've learned from working at Newcastle Castle.
Josh Hutchinson: Some of the work that we've done in Connecticut around the witch trial history is really similar as far as the awareness isn't there in a lot of the community. I have really enjoyed that piece, just having the new learners getting to spread something that is interesting and important. As surprising as it can be when history is just unknown, it's exciting when it gets launched like this.
Katie Liddane: Definitely has been very exciting and the opportunity to talk about it more on podcasts and heritage [00:08:00] attractions has been brilliant as well because that was the intention of my project, really, to explain and understand the obscurity of the Newcastle witches, but also use that to have a wider impact outside of academia. Because I don't think many people are going to read an 80,000 word academic thesis on the role of deindustrialization in the legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials, but there are opportunities to talk about the Witch Trials and to often clear up a lot of misconceptions that happen a lot with originating in the sort of Halloween articles and popular media that really links the fairy tale or the folk healer witch with those convicted and executed in the 17th century.
Katie Liddane: And I think Newcastle has been especially impacted by what I term in my thesis, but I don't think I coined [00:09:00] the term, 'witch kitsch' in the intervening centuries almost between the trials and their resurgence. Strangely, post 2008, 2008 seems to be a watershed moment for the afterlife of the Newcastle witches. There has been mounds and mounds of witchcraft media that has been drawn upon to a greater extent than the few sources we have of the Newcastle Witches.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that is since 2008? Why has that changed?
Katie Liddane: 2008 was the year of the article about the bones, and it was during renovation work of St. Andrew's Churchyard that what may have been the bones of the convicted were unearthed. But that was also the year that Walking with Witches, which is a children's novel by Lynn Huggins Cooper, based on the Newcastle Witches, was released. And then when you go slightly [00:10:00] further back, I have family history journals that do include excerpts from the burial register with the title, 'Was Your Ancestress a Witch?' Then we get small articles and magazines in the 1970s and things like that, but I think post sort of 2008 is the time where you see the solidification of the Northeast as a post-industrial region and there's been a greater exploration of parts of the region's history beyond heavy industry. And it's enabled people to tap into wider witch kitsch with the regional example.
Katie Liddane: That was already quite a mouthful, but there is like an 80,000 word explanation that starts literally with the witch trials, and then you see a snowballing effect of obscurity, and then a kind of redevelopment of interest. I've not been [00:11:00] able to pin down why specifically 2008, but you can tie it into wider witch literature, occult revivals, interest in the supernatural, and I guess there may have been examples of people finding out about the Newcastle Witches in the same way that I have, and then they've gone through and mined the few resources that there are out there, and we're starting to see more representation.
Sarah Jack: I was just thinking, my journey has not led me to a new degree yet, but I was trying to mine resources about my ancestor who was on trial for witchcraft in the 17th century in Connecticut, and I didn't realize I needed to stick my nose in the academic writings, because I wasn't reading academic writings at that point. I was online looking for people talking about it, newspaper articles, that kind of thing. And it [00:12:00] was really similar the type of witch kitsch that we would find, that I would find, or just lack, other people saying, I don't know, what's out there, and can there be a memorial?
Sarah Jack: And so it's interesting how these histories that do come back alive, the voices start to be heard. It's because there's inquiry, and there's a vacuum there.
Katie Liddane: Definitely, and I think with a more obscure case like Newcastle, I think it's quite important that vacuum is filled in a way in a collaboration between historians and heritage professionals, because there is that danger of this rediscovery stopping with the witch kitsch, and I think especially in a situation such as Newcastle's where there is this kind of more grassroots reengagement with the city's [00:13:00] witch-hunting past. There is that danger that the information or lack thereof that we have about the Newcastle Witches becomes supplemented and our understanding of the Newcastle Witches is that of the hag stereotype or the almost fictional caricature, and that these efforts and these interests don't materialize into memorialization and recognition of victimhood.
Josh Hutchinson: Now one way that you've worked on getting more recognition is through workshops you conducted. What can you tell us about those?
Katie Liddane: I wrote a bespoke workshop at the time for a primary school in the west end of Newcastle called Bridgewater. And the workshop is called 'Familiars and Fear,' and it was written because the children in year six, so that's around 11 years old, [00:14:00] were reading Walking with Witches for their literacy class. And the novel touches on a lot of locations in Newcastle, like Newcastle Castle, and the Lit and Phil, which is the Literary and Philosophical Society. And the teachers wanted to have a school trip to actually visit these locations, and luckily at the time I was at placement at Newcastle Castle as part of my PhD studies, so I was able to write the workshop that tied in with what they're reading at school, but also the wider witchcraft history in the region. Eleven years old is quite young to explain some of these issues, so it requires a bit of simplification and talking about suspicion and rumour and issues like that, but also bringing in issues of gender and class. And we also have a game [00:15:00] towards the end, where one of the children plays a witchfinder.
Katie Liddane: And it's quite similar to Wink Murder. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Sarah Jack: I believe I am. Is that a group game, and you don't wanna get winked at 'cause then you're dead.?
Katie Liddane: Essentially, yeah, and one of the children, or one of the people playing the game is chosen to be a detective and to work out who is committing the murders. But, this time we have someone chosen to be a witchfinder. The child is taken out of the room and told, essentially the witchfinder was given the equivalent of 106 pounds in today's money per witch, that he would find guilty and do not think that might influence your decision a little bit. And the children in the main room are given cards that they are told will say whether they are a villager or a witch. And in reality, none of the cards say that the children, say that anyone is a witch, [00:16:00] and the kind of game escalates as the children start to accuse each other, the witchfinder decides if he's going to send them to trial, essentially, and then at the end we explain to the children that none of them were witches, and it's a really good opportunity to see the shock on their faces, but also to talk about how easily they started accusing one another. So I think it's a really good way to make the session interactive but also through that and through a more tangible and active lesson, get them the core messages across about what we can learn from witch hunting.
Sarah Jack: The prickers and the finders were a strong part of the Newcastle witch trial history.
Katie Liddane: Yes, so how the witch trials originated in Newcastle was through a petition that was submitted in March of [00:17:00] 1649, for a witchfinder to be invited to the town, and unfortunately, the petition doesn't survive, but we get the sense that the witch finder was chosen by name. He was a Scottish professional witch pricker, and unfortunately, we don't know his name today. But he had a reputation that crossed the border into Newcastle, and when he arrived into the town, thirty people, which would have been around 1 percent of the town's population, were brought forward to be tried by him, and he boasted that he could tell if someone was a witch by their looks alone, but his method in court as a sort of preliminary trial method was pricking with a bodkin, which was a long medicinal pin, and he would prick the devil's marks that he found on the [00:18:00] accused, and particularly in English witch hunting, this was a protuberance like a mole or an extra nipple or a skin tag or something like that that was understood to be the teat at which the familiar spirit would feed. And, out of the 30 people, the wich finder found 15 guilty and were passed on to trial, and then they were convicted at the assizes.
Josh Hutchinson: And he was paid per witch that he found?
Katie Liddane: Yeah, he was paid 20 shillings per witch, and later on, he allegedly admitted to being the death of over 220 people across England and Scotland.
Josh Hutchinson: So he made pretty good money.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, and he was actually discovered to be a fraud after his time in Newcastle, and according to the evidence that we have, he was pursued into Scotland and [00:19:00] executed, and it was on the gallows that he gave the figure of 220, but I've unfortunately not been able to verify that anywhere, so I do have some speculation that in the town's kind of constructing of the history of this event in the five years between the event and the first surviving piece of documentation, it certainly makes the town's officials appear better if they've managed to apprehend him but have not found anything to correlate that he was executed for his involvement at Newcastle.
Sarah Jack: Were there also sociopolitical impacts in the Northeast that contributed to the witchcraft persecutions?
Katie Liddane: The 17th century in Newcastle was a very turbulent period. You've got various sieges by the Scottish. There's [00:20:00] a plague outbreak that was proportionally more devastating than London's 1666 plague. There were pirates at the ports in Newcastle in 1649 to 1650, harvest crises, just decades of political upheaval. And whilst, because we don't have the surviving material of the accusations of the individuals, you can definitely see this escalation over the time period and the fact that witch trial accusations and a reputation for witchcraft took sometimes decades to develop, you can really see, again, like this gradual increase that reached a fever pitch in 1649.
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, this sounds so familiar to what we've heard with other witch trial cases. There's this political uncertainty, maybe some [00:21:00] warfare going on, disease, crop issues. Yeah, these seem to be pretty typical contributors to at least the witch panics that happened.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. And you do see this kind of spread outside of Newcastle in 1649 to 1650. There was a peak in Scottish witch hunting in the same time period, but you also see smaller clusters of accusations in Gateshead, which is just across the Tyne, and the Sheriff of Cumberland sent a letter to London to ask for assistance in a witch hunt, and he was told that essentially the legislation, we're not going to offer any more support. And in the case of Newcastle, they did seek that support from north of the border instead.
Sarah Jack: In the Newcastle case, they were tried in Newcastle?
Katie Liddane: [00:22:00] Yes They would have been tried at the Assizes Court in the Guild Hall, which is just on the quayside, and the witch that was likely held at Newcastle Castle, she was a resident of Northumberland, so she would have been tried at the Morpeth Assizes in Northumberland, but because at the time she was in a different jurisdiction, she would have been held at Newcastle Castle because that was acting as the jail for the county of Northumberland. But she was executed alongside the Newcastle Witches too.
Sarah Jack: How many executions occurred?
Katie Liddane: So there were 14 from the Newcastle Witch Trials, 13 women and one man. And then Jane Martin was the witch who was accused in Northumberland and convicted alongside the Newcastle Witches. But also on the same day, nine Moss Troopers were executed. Moss Troopers are a local name [00:23:00] for cattle rustlers and border thieves. They would essentially use the difference in legislation and jurisdiction to hop across the border whenever they'd committed a crime. The large number of executions taking place on the same day would have been a huge spectacle for people in the region and reinforced the idea of maintenance of law and order and show some stability in a bizarre way. During this period, the number of executions were so large that a special gallows was built. We have record of the construction of an extra large gallows, and this was what made it more surprising to me that the Newcastle Witches had been so little known for so long was that their hanging was the largest hanging for witchcraft in English history. There's, a group of 18 witches that were executed in Chelmsford in East Anglia under Matthew Hopkins, [00:24:00] but they were executed in different locations and at different dates. So it, at the start of my studies, it seemed even more strange that the Newcastle Witch Trials have faded into obscurity.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, that really stands out differently. With Salem, we had 19 hanged, but there were several different dates.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, and I think similarly with Salem, because in exploring this absence throughout my thesis, I wanted to do a lot of comparison to sites that do engage with their witchcraft history, for better or for worse, in different times throughout history. I think it's really important to follow the example of memorialising those that weren't executed as witches, but died earlier in jail, or died awaiting trial, [00:25:00] things like that, so really good to be able to have that comparison of this is how it's been done in another location, in perhaps the most famous place for witchcraft heritage in the world. So this is how Newcastle can learn from that and build upon that.
Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about the memorial effort?
Katie Liddane: We're in the early stages at the moment. It's a project at the moment between myself, the learning team at Newcastle Castle, and Newcastle's Council, the Heritage and Conservation Department. We're working on contacting people that we think would be interested stakeholders, organizations that I've worked with before.
Katie Liddane: And as part of that, I'm quite keen to reach out to other heritage sites in the UK and elsewhere that have witchcraft memorials and to discuss the stories of how they came about [00:26:00] there and really learn from how other sites have engaged with their witch hunting past. Not just to, as I was in my thesis, to look at why Newcastle perhaps hasn't yet but to turn that into an action.
Katie Liddane: We'll look at involving local artists. We've got Bridgewater Primary, the school that I mentioned earlier, involved as well. They did a writing exercise for one of their classes to write a letter requesting a memorial to their local MP. So we are trying to build a communal engagement rather than a sort of top down memorial that someone will read about in the newspaper, like I did the bone discovery.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah and I are involved in an effort to get a memorial for the witch trial victims in Connecticut. So we're at a similar early stage building the community [00:27:00] and starting to conceptualize what it might look like.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, we're also hoping, we're in the sort of blue sky thinking, shoot for the stars phase at the moment, but we'd love to do a community event each year as well, on the anniversary of the executions. So to keep the memorialization process and recognition alive again, rather than just placing a memorial and that being the end of it, but also, I don't know if you've had a similar thought process, but with it being so long that Newcastle has gone without any sort of recognition or memorialization, the aims are a bit higher. Part of our thinking is that we definitely want the names of each of the people convicted and or accused that might have died during the process that they awaited trial, but a [00:28:00] small plaque doesn't seem enough after so long. Envisioning what the design looks like is definitely being influenced, on my part anyway, by the amount of time that there's been nothing.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'd say shoot for the stars. Definitely.
Katie Liddane: I think looking at the centenaries of other witch hunts and the events around that has been really important in both my research process and in starting to put proposals together for the memorial as well. So the fourth centenary of the Pendle Witch Trials that happened in 2012 has been quite influential in the various events and different means of engaging with different parts of the community. In looking at Salem as well, when I visited Lancaster, it was quite interesting to see the coexistence of serious memorialization, such as the [00:29:00] turset weight markers that were put on the Pendle Witch Trail in 2012, in contrast to the local bus companies having a lady with a pointed hat and a broomstick on the side of their, on the side of their buses.
Katie Liddane: So there's a really, like a really interesting mingling of what the early modern witch means to people and the different ways that regions with a strong witch hunting past engage with that.
Katie Liddane:
Josh Hutchinson: That sounds a lot like Salem. The city emblem is the witch on the broomstick with the pointy hat. So the police and the police cars have that emblem on them, but you do have, you know, multiple memorials to the victims there, where you go, and, they're peaceful, solemn places amidst all the witch kitsch going on all around it. So it's a [00:30:00] this interesting dichotomy.
Katie Liddane: It's really interesting, and I'd say, apart from sites like Newcastle Castle and brief discussion of the trials at the Discovery Museum in the city, Newcastle's engagement is just the witch kitch elements elsewhere, so there are various ghost tours and there's an escape room that do talk about the Newcastle witches, but it is very much in the pointed hat broomstick way.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, I've seen some local community events that embrace the history of a single witch trial victim from their town. And there's a lot of lore that has grown and then been embraced for communities. And then there's these fresher efforts of bringing their humanity to the forefront. But they're just, the lore is just envelopes [00:31:00] that woman.
Sarah Jack: And so I'm learning that, they're forever intertwined, but the life can be spoken about more, and her humanity and the dignity has to be a constant part of the conversation to grow that piece of her story. And one of the recent memorial plaques that went up, it's very brief what it says about her, but you can tell they are recognizing her as a real woman who hanged, but they are also, there's this endearment of the folklore that's been around her that they identify with as the town.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think it would be really hard to just engage directly with what we know from the 17th century records and not let any other awareness of what witchcraft and or witch hunting means to [00:32:00] us today to influence that. I think the, it's the coexistence of the pop cultural witch with the recognition of the humanity of those accused is most important.
Katie Liddane: I saw a similar memorial in Forfar in Scotland. That memorial has, it's just a stone pillar with one indentation in the stone per victim and then beneath it just says, 'they were just people.' And I think the demystifying aspect is really important there to, like I say, recognize the humanity and to a certain extent the distinction between those accused in the 17th century and our more modern understandings of the witch figure, whether it be historical or fantasy.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's so true. They [00:33:00] were just people. And I think what you're hoping to do with the annual event is so critical. Hopefully, we can do something like that too, because it's so important to give these victims their humanity and know about them outside of just the kitsch element, get a sense of who they are as real human people just like us.
Katie Liddane: Yeah. And we do fortunately have some small glimpses of what the Newcastle Witches were like as people. So Matthew Boomer, the only male defendant. We know that he was a smith of some form, and he appears in the quarter session records in the years leading up to the Newcastle Witch Trials in petty disputes with his neighbors.
Katie Liddane: We don't have much detail about much detail of what they were about [00:34:00] because the clerk didn't seem too interested by it so he didn't write much down, unfortunately. Men implicated in English witch trials are related to, or married to, female defendants, but we can't find that connection there with Matthew. And we also know a little bit more about Margaret Brown.
Katie Liddane: And in the only account that we do have in depth on the Newcastle Witch Trials and the execution again, we can't really verify this but Margaret Brown is said to have asked for a sign from God for her innocence as she was about to drop, and her blood sprayed across the crowd to the amazement of onlookers. And often when I do public engagement work, I try to explain that amazement meant something different in the 17th century than it does today. But Margaret Brown has a further connection in that one of the [00:35:00] witnesses that gave their testimony to support this account of the witch hunts was her friend Eleanor Loomsdale, and Eleanor spent a year in jail for trying to deter people from giving evidence against Margaret and the co-accused. So we can see evidence of opposition to the witch hunting at the time, and Eleanor getting in contact with the writer of the account years later to give her version of events.
Sarah Jack: Wow. And those that were executed, were they identified early on? How, I know we have the length of the event, but I wondered how quickly some of these people went from not being accused to finding themselves convicted.
Katie Liddane: From the glimpses that we can get from the brief [00:36:00] discussion of the Newcastle Witch Hunt in a kind of full length book that is actually about Ralph Gardner's grievances with Newcastle's council. About four pages of the large book are about the witch hunt and this is essentially, apart from the burial register and financial records for how much it cost to jail the witches while they awaited trial, this four page account is all we have.
Katie Liddane: And in Gardner's version of events there was bubbling unrest and informal accusations being made that caused the petition to be submitted. And the petition was submitted in March of 1649, as I said, but the witchfinder wasn't sought until 1650. So we do see a kind of reluctance, hesitance, for Newcastle's authorities to invite a [00:37:00] witchfinder, or to pay for a witchfinder, possibly. There is a suggestion that there was a sense of informal suspicion and reputation for those that were brought forward. But when the witchfinder did arrive, a bellman was sent out into the town to encourage accusations to be formalized. But I highly doubt that those accusations were generated when the witchfinder was riding through. I think it will have been years in the making for a lot of the people accused.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that it is that we only have that one four page account?
Katie Liddane: The survival of the assizes records is very scarce for Newcastle in that time period. It's hard to trace when they disappear, but they were already gone by the 19th century, when criminal histories and folklore collections were beginning to be compiled of the [00:38:00] region. In terms of why there were few accounts aside from that, I think it was probably the exposure of the witchfinder as a fraud that meant that we don't see the same sort of pamphlets that were produced about Lancaster and the Pendle Witch Trials and things like that, because, and that sort of In the sense of constructing a narrative about a successful witch hunt and the kind of defeat of evil and the defeat of the devil's agents on earth, that witches were understood to be, the exposure of the witch finder as a fraud kind of undermined a lot of that, and it would have been quite severe that the town's authorities had been taken in by a charlatan, so you can see the sense of why they wouldn't have been happy with the trial being discussed.
Katie Liddane: And we do have evidence of that with the four page account, actually, because the 200 [00:39:00] page, 200, 300 page book that it's contained within was actively suppressed by Newcastle's authorities, so we see a kind of censorship of the trial being committed to print, whether it's contained within Ralph Gardner's text against the town's authorities as a whole, or whether it's specifically about the witch trial.
Katie Liddane: In the same year, a pamphlet called Wonderful News from the North Again, that's a term that I have to explain how language evolves over time. It wasn't considered wonderful news at the time in the way that we would talk about it now. But Wonderful News from the North details Jane Martin's accusations, and Jane was the witch held at Newcastle Castle, and the writer of that pamphlet chose to have it printed in London, even though there was a printer [00:40:00] working in Newcastle at the time. Just the brief detail like that gives us a sense that there was an attempt to spread this news outside of the immediate area, or perhaps a reluctance from Newcastle's printer to discuss witch hunting so close to their executions and the exposure of the fraud.
Josh Hutchinson: Interesting. Is there a victim's story that you'd be interested in telling us?
Katie Liddane: In the case of the core Newcastle Witch Trials, we have very, very little information. But I think Jane Martin's story would probably be quite interesting to go into. Like the Newcastle Witches, Jane never made a confession, but her sister did, on her behalf, Margaret White. And Jane and Margaret became involved with the [00:41:00] story presented in Wonderful News because they were named by a cunning man named John Hutton, who was himself being accused of possessing a nine to eleven year old child called Margaret Moore. Yeah, Margaret Muschamp, her mother was Mary Moore, sorry.
Katie Liddane: And as I say, Jane didn't confess. But Margaret White, on her behalf, said that she had entertained the devil and that he knew her so well that that he nicknamed her Bessie, and that she had a black greyhound familiar. And the pamphlet itself was constructed over about four to five years and released to coincide with the Newcastle Witch Trials, quite interestingly.
Katie Liddane: There's quite a long list of Jane's alleged crimes. She was accused of using telekinesis to launch a kiln of oats at a man's head and to kill him. John Hutton, as I say, was accused of shapeshifting into the [00:42:00] form of a dragon, a bear, a horse, and a cow, of causing shipwrecks. And again to go back to Jane, she was also accused of causing a man to have a sore leg. So going from like shapeshifting into a dragon and causing shipwrecks to a sore leg, we see quite a breadth of accusations and forms of magic being used at the time.
Katie Liddane: And in the pamphlet we know that Jane was indicted, tried, and convicted, and taken to Newcastle to be executed. But, she seems to have been, in a bizarre way collateral damage of sorts. Because the mother, Mary Moore, who wrote the pamphlet, was pursuing Dorothy Swinnow, who was a wealthy widow of a colonel. And we know that she fled to Berwick, and the officials at Berwick wouldn't send her back down to Chatham for a trial, but because [00:43:00] Jane was only the wife of a miller, she gets swept up, and because a conviction can be put through with Jane, we see her executed.
Katie Liddane: And I think her tie to Newcastle Castle and the fact that we do know so much more about Jane is why she was chosen to be a castle character, and the design of the castle character that I did in collaboration with the Master's students at Newcastle came after the original Familiars and Fear workshop, but it's been really good to be able to merge those two parts of interpretation together, and the kids engage really well seeing the 17th century costume, and again, with the understanding that these were real people rather than fairy tale villains. So I think that's been a really helpful method of interpretation.
Josh Hutchinson: Is Jane who you portrayed in the costume last year?
Katie Liddane: [00:44:00] Yeah. The castle characters are the illustrations that are commissioned. So there is an illustration of Jane, too, but the castle commissioned the costume to be made by a woman known as the Rogue Needlewoman that does a lot of the costumes for the castle and for local reenactment societies, but Jane Martin is the character that I was dressed as last year, yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we love seeing people in a period costume presenting the information.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It really caught my eye too, because it was children's education.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, I think it's a really important opportunity as well and to have such an interactive session where the children can directly ask me questions, and I can directly answer them rather than just having these methods of interpretation be released out there. And if people have questions, it's [00:45:00] much harder to ask those and to research to a certain extent, because a lot of people, especially teachers in school, aren't necessarily going to go to academic theses, but to have the opportunity to speak directly to people has been brilliant.
Katie Liddane: The teachers are sometimes a bit reluctant to let the children ask me questions, because they prefer the classroom environment of putting their hand up and or they don't want the children to bother me sometimes, but I think it's brilliant like, I like to wait around at the end of the sessions and have children come and ask me 'what if witches weren't real, then why were people still saying that there were witches? Why did this happen?' And I think that one-on-one engagement is really important, as well.
Josh Hutchinson: What lessons do the children draw from the engagement?
Katie Liddane: Again, it is the breakdown of [00:46:00] kind of very complicated ideas about class and gender. So we discuss the fact that some people who, looked different, may have been accused, people who were ostracized by their communities in certain ways, so it breaks this sort of complex and very historically distant phenomenon of witch hunting into its basic themes to show what we can learn about acceptance and social justice in terms of what, what has happened to the most vulnerable members of society in the past. And through the game especially, the children gain a sense of empathy of what it would have felt like to be accused, or to recognise in themselves impulse to make accusations based on very little evidence.
Katie Liddane:
Katie Liddane: It's been really fun at the castle, especially, to directly [00:47:00] integrate my research and real examples from the region into these activities. I go through various cases and ask the children, ' do you think this person was a witch or what else might have been happening?' And in the game, as well, we see the children are handed curse cards that are real complaints that people made in their accusations about their cow's milk failing or crops failing and things like that and shipwrecks. So it's again been really good to be able to break down PhD level research, speak to children about it, and have them engage and understand.
Sarah Jack: It's amazing. And I really see this long game impact that what you have done is creating, especially with the memorial developing [00:48:00] and the annual tribute that will be happening as these children are growing. It just strengthens that community acknowledgement of the heritage and making memorialization an important part of looking at the history.
Sarah Jack: It's wonderful.
Katie Liddane: Has been a really fulfilling project, and again, as I say, the intention when I started out with my thesis was community engagement and changing this absence rather than just observing it from academia to a certain extent is to be able to build on the memorialisation process, and as I say, recently we're hearing more and more interest from local schools and groups, so it is really nice to see the development and spread of sometimes very surface level awareness that witch trials did happen in Newcastle, and then to have people reach out to the castle and myself [00:49:00] to learn more. So it's a really exciting time for the kind of legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: As a way of paying tribute, would you be able to read the names of the victims?
Katie Liddane: So the names of those executed in Newcastle on the 21st of August of 1650 were Isabel Brown, Margret Maddeson, Anne Watson, Eleanor Henderson, Elsabeth Dobson, Matthew Bulmer o r Bonner, Ellsabeth Anderson, Jane Huntor, Jane Koupling, Margret Brown, Margret Moffet, Katteren Welsh, alias Coulter, Aylles Hume, and Marie Pootes.
Josh Hutchinson: Katie, I can't tell you how much I've learned from everything that you, I've really learned a lot from you. And I look at how you mentioned how you were looking at other memorials and what other communities have done with the history to [00:50:00] implement and look at what, how you can reach your goals in Newcastle, but I feel like what you've done is so historic and is such a case study in itself and something for other communities to model after. It's incredible.
Katie Liddane: That's really nice to hear, thank you. I again, when I started the PhD, and with the blue sky thinking of the memorial project, I would really like to build a network or engage in a community of areas with witch hunting histories and to learn from each other, to a certain extent, and build an awareness of the witch hunts that fit into a wider understanding of the phenomenon and how you do find specific details that tie the cases to a region, but that also tap into a wider sense of communal memorialization and [00:51:00] its continuing relevance today. It would be great to be able to be further in touch with, with the people.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah we do know a few people in Salem and Danvers, Massachusetts that were involved in the memorials. Have you been able to talk to anyone there?
Katie Liddane: We're still in the early stages of reaching out to that extent, but I did read a lot about the 2016 memorial determining the execution site, and that seems like it was a very intensive project with a lot of researchers and historians that are referenced in my thesis.
Josh Hutchinson: So again, when we have a kind of firmer idea of where we're going with this project, would be brilliant to reach out to those people, too. I've already been in contact with people at Colchester Castle, where some of Matthew Hopkins' [00:52:00] accused were held and in discussion with Lancaster Castle, who were very helpful during my thesis, too.
Sarah Jack: I don't know that I've paid attention enough or I just haven't heard it, but hearing those two terms together, the Witchcraft Heritage, just is like a wake up call for me on messaging and the community engagement piece. I'm so appreciative of that layer of your work.
Katie Liddane: Thank you. It was really, a really interesting thing to be able to explore and to go back to what we were talking about earlier too. It's quite hard to articulate in my thesis of this, in a sense, dichotomy between witch kitsch and memorialization, but to articulate the idea that there is an interwoven relationship between the two.
Katie Liddane: And as you said earlier, I don't think we're ever going to be able to separate them entirely, but I think [00:53:00] witchcraft heritage is a very nuanced topic, and a community to discuss that in is very valuable, especially with regards to sites that are only just moving towards memorialization or moving towards the more nuanced look at their region's witch hunting past.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one thing that I believe, and I think this especially about Salem, is that the witch kitsch draws people in, and then it gives the historians the opportunity to present the nuanced history to new learners, because there's always a supply of tourists coming in willing to learn.
Katie Liddane: So the relationship is definitely much more complicated than witch kitsch tourism businesses and historians. And so far as we can know about what [00:54:00] happened in places like Salem and Lancaster and Pendle, the detailed documented evidence that we do have does, have to engage with witch kitsch in order for that message to be heard, in a way, so a lot of the way that people do learn about Newcastle Witch Trials in the first instance is through ghost tours, the escape room, and the article, but the important part is when they want to find out more where historians and heritage professionals can step in, so I definitely agree with the witch kitsch being a huge draw at Salem, the interpretation definitely doesn't stop there.
Sarah Jack: I'm just I've just had this realization with Connecticut, one of the questions that we keep having to answer is how can we move forward with highlighting the history and memorials [00:55:00] without the sensationalizing happening? Of course, I'm also seeing this lore that is important to the local culture, but I know that what has the answer is we embrace and develop the heritage, just like we do the other heritage of the history, and we haven't been highlighting that in an articulated way, and I think that can be an answer for that question on gathering some support from stakeholders there.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think the witch kitsch is always going to be there in some form, but being able to build something else from that and around that does recognize, again, the humanity of the accused and having a relationship with witch kitsch to a certain extent is very important in raising awareness and recognition of these people as [00:56:00] people. I had a particularly frustrating time in trying to track down one of the strangest misconceptions about the Newcastle Witches, and it was that Matthew Bulmer, the only male defendant, transformed into a black cat and led a load of children to fall down a well in Winleton or Winlayton, the a village in Gateshead.
Katie Liddane: And I haven't been able to substantiate that at all, but the black cat figure is so prominent within witchcraft history that I can, not academically, but I can speculate as to where that came from. But I spent a lot of time emailing the different places that it pops up, and they all assumed that they'd picked it up from the other person.
Katie Liddane: Trying to disentangle where folklore, myth, and witch kitsch becomes involved has been quite difficult, [00:57:00] but has really illustrated the kind of inextricable relationship between 17th century witchcraft history and pop cultural engagements with the witch as a figure in general. And unfortunately, I think the kind of black cat into a well story is more exciting for a lot of people than Matthew Bulmer being a blacksmith that had arguments with his neighbours.
Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
Mary Louise Bingham: Rebecca Fox was distraught, because her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was arrested under false pretenses for the capital crime of witchcraft at Salem, Massachusetts Bay, British America, in 1692. Rebecca Jacobs languished in the Salem jail for six months when her mother drafted the second of two petitions on her daughter's behalf. This petition was addressed to the Governor's Council at Boston. Rebecca [00:58:00] Fox advised the magistrates that her daughter was, quote, 'crazed and distracted in her mind for the last 12 years,' end quote. Rebecca asked them to show leniency, because she feared her daughter's mental illness could not withstand the deplorable prison conditions. Rebecca's petitions remain unanswered.
Mary Louise Bingham: Because these petitions have been preserved, we know today that Rebecca Fox's love and devotion for her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was unwavering. Here is a short quote by Rebecca Fox to the council, quote, 'Your petitioner, her tender mother, has many great sorrows and almost overcoming burdens on her mind upon my daughter's account. Your petitioner has no way for help but to make my afflicted daughter's condition known to you, end quote.' And she signed this document, 'your [00:59:00] sorrowful and distressed petitioner, Rebecca Fox.' Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
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This is National Women's History Month. Women have been pivotal and influential across all facets of human history. In March, the United States pays tribute to the enduring legacy and contributions of women throughout its history. National Women's History Month celebrates U. S. women's achievements and struggles. Originating from an 1857 protest by garment workers in New York City against poor working conditions, it evolved into the nation's first Women's Day in 1909 after a significant march for labor rights and suffrage. Official recognition came in 1981 when Congress designated the second week of March as National Women's History Week, later expanding it to a month in 1987. The month is a reflection on women's progress.
During Women's History Month, End Witch Hunts extends a heartfelt appreciation to the exceptional contributions and resilience of marginalized American women. Their narratives, deeply embedded in a diverse tapestry of rich cultural heritages, are essential to the fabric of our collective history. As [01:01:00] educators, these women have imparted wisdom and knowledge across generations, shaping the minds and spirits of future leaders. Their leadership in social and political arenas has been pivotal, driving forward movements of justice, equality, and transformative change with unwavering courage and vision.
Who are our marginalized women? Marginalized women encompass a diverse array of identities and face unique challenges and barriers. These are women of color, indigenous women, LGBTQ women, those with disabilities, the elderly, the impoverished, immigrants and refugees, survivors of violence, single mothers, and those living in conflict zones. Their experiences, marked by intersectional forms of discrimination, underline the pressing need for inclusive support and advocacy. This list is not exhaustive and can intersect, leading to compounded forms of discrimination and marginalization.
Despite marginalization, women have broken through barriers across the arts, sciences, and business, introducing bold perspectives [01:02:00] that challenge restrictive narratives and significantly enhance our collective insight. Their creativity and intelligence has been a beacon of innovation, redefining what it means to lead and excel in a myriad of fields. As entrepreneurs, they have fueled economic growth and community development, highlighting the strength that lies in diversity. Their achievements are monumental, not only in their communities, but in shaping the course of American history.
As we celebrate American women, let us commit to recognizing their invaluable contributions, advocating for their rights, and ensuring that their voices are heard and celebrated. Read about their stories, write their stories, amplify their voices. Their voices, frequently sidelined in dominant narratives must play a pivotal role in leading future generations.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:03:00]

March 12, 2024

Witchcraft Accusations and Gender Inequality with Dr. Samantha Spence

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A Voice Against Injustice: Neelesh Singh on Witch Hunts in India

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Show Notes

In this poignant episode of “Witch Hunt” we’re honored to welcome Dr. Samantha Spence back. Merging the commemorative spirits of International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month into a deep dive on the entwined paths of witch-hunting and women’s struggles worldwide, Dr. Spence brings to light the multifaceted adversities that ensnare women accused of witchcraft – from social ostracization to economic hardships, legal injustices, and educational blockades. These barriers not only underscore their marginalization but also underscore the urgency of a collective global response. Through our discussion, Dr. Spence underscores the pivotal role of international collaboration, enhanced data gathering, and rigorous research in crafting both national and global strategies to counteract these injustices comprehensively. A staunch advocate for gender equality, she points out the transformative power of education for all genders and the undeniable influence of female leadership in dispelling harmful myths, challenging age-old stereotypes, and uplifting communities. Furthermore, Dr. Spence passionately argues for the critical necessity of healthcare access, with a particular emphasis on sexual and reproductive health services, as a cornerstone in safeguarding women’s rights and well-being. Join us as we explore these essential themes with Dr. Spence, gaining insights into how solidarity, knowledge, and action can illuminate the darkest corners of witch hunts and pave the way for a just, equitable future that inspires inclusion.

⁠The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks ⁠

⁠Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization⁠

⁠Pan African Parliament Guidelines for Addressing Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks⁠

⁠Film: Testimony of Ana⁠

⁠Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past⁠

⁠Storymap explaining the dynamics of sorcery accusation related violence⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts Movement ⁠

⁠Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts⁠

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0077 Samantha Spence on International Women’s Day Download

March 5, 2024

A Voice Against Injustice: Neelesh Singh on Witch Hunts in India

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Witch Hunts in Ghana & India by John Azumah & Neelesh Singh 10.13.21

A Voice Against Injustice: Neelesh Singh on Witch Hunts in India

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Show Notes

In this episode of Witch Hunt, we dive into an enlightening conversation with Neelesh Singh, a champion for social inclusion and gender equality with India’s National Rural Livelihood Mission. Neelesh emphasizes the urgent imperative to confront and mitigate gender-based violence at every stage of life, highlighting the importance of comprehensive strategies that protect and empower individuals from infancy through to old age.From combating infanticide to empowering widow survivors of witchcraft allegations, Neelesh’s work spans a broad spectrum of initiatives aimed at fostering resilience, healing, and collective empowerment among women in rural India. Learn about therapeutic approaches including art therapy for expression and healing, the formation of women’s collectives to combat domestic violence, and the development of strategies for prevention, risk mitigation, and redressal of gender-based violence. Neelesh also discusses the importance of survivor networks in influencing policy and media, underscoring the critical role of the state in acknowledging and combating these practices. Join us for a profound discussion on the journey towards gender equity and the end of witch hunts for alleged witches in India.

Street Play on Witch Hunting by I -CARD

Film: Testimony of Ana

Stop Witchcraft Accusations and Trial by Ordeal in Guinea Bissau by Leo Igwe

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast bringing you news about today's witch hunts. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. I descend from multiple women accused of witchcraft in colonial New England.
Josh Hutchinson: I also descend from several women who were accused before and during the Salem witch trials.
Sarah Jack: Just as these women did many years ago, women today continue to proclaim their innocence.
Josh Hutchinson: One person working to end these modern-day witch hunts is Neelesh Singh, who works for the National Rural Livelihood Mission in India, focusing on gender and social inclusion. His work involves various aspects of rural development, social audit, and addressing gender issues, with a [00:01:00] specific focus on preventing witch hunting.
Sarah Jack: Neelesh highlights that gender-based violence impacts women and girls of all ages, from before birth to old age, with a range of violence for different age groups.
Josh Hutchinson: Indeed, girls can be victims of infanticide, and older women, especially widows, are vulnerable to witchcraft allegations and the associated violence.
Sarah Jack: Beyond witch hunting, Neelesh and his team are developing comprehensive strategies to address various forms of gender-based violence, including prevention, risk mitigation, and redressal mechanisms.
Josh Hutchinson: An art therapy initiative was used to help women express their experiences through painting. As they grew in confidence, they began to transition from using old newspapers to using fresh drawing papers and a wider range of colors, symbolizing their journey of healing and empowerment.
Sarah Jack: Organizing women into collectives and educating them about gender issues is crucial, [00:02:00] and it's essential to create platforms within women's collectives where members can discuss private matters like domestic violence, challenging the stigma and fear associated with speaking out.
Josh Hutchinson: Neelesh emphasized the importance of building networks of witch hunt survivors, enabling them to influence policy and media coverage. He highlighted the need for the state to recognize its responsibility in addressing and preventing such practices.
Sarah Jack: And he shares some touching stories with us today. We are pleased to welcome Neelesh Singh, expert social inclusion and gender integrator with India's National Mission Management Unit. He has spent decades working in India's social development sector.
Sarah Jack: My name is Neelesh, and I'm working for agovernment scheme and centrally-sponsored scheme called National Rural Livelihood Mission. And I am in their gender and social inclusion vertical.This is a national level of scheme, and it is being implemented [00:03:00] in every states and union territories of India.
Neelesh Singh: AndI passed my post graduation from,institute called Xavier Institute of Social Services in 2000. I did my specialization in rural development.I initiated with tribal empowerment and slowly into the natural resource management and then to the social audit and totend to gender aspects.
Neelesh Singh: And it was like in 2016 that I got this opportunity to work on gender issues. So before that I didn't have much experience of working on gender issues, but, and, I was like, fortunate enough to initiate my work on gender issues with an issue which was burning there called witch-hunting.
Neelesh Singh: Yes. And I, for me also, it was like first of time when I was hearing such kind of. That's how I started working intensively for the prevention of witch hunting. And I had my team and we had some strategy to [00:04:00] do that. And then government supported us. Because I was the part of that time with the state government, I was working under the same scheme and then the national government, they also supported us and lots of other NGOs also joined us, and we could do it in a scale, and then a special project was designed around it.
Neelesh Singh: Continue to work on this and now we have designed to further, because different states has got different kind of gender issues. So we are now working on the entire gender-based violence, for the aspects of prevention and for the risk mitigation and forredressal mechanism and so everything we are trying to now work it and we are still growing.
Neelesh Singh: Does gender-based violence affect all ages of women?
Neelesh Singh: Yes. You know, there is a saying here 'from the womb to tomb.' It affects from when you are yet to born and it goes on until the tomb. We have got like [00:05:00] range of violence for different kind of age group, which runs across it. So yeah. For every age group.
Sarah Jack: You mentioned thatthe gender violence is a little different in every state or it presents itself in its own way. That must be a great challenge to have so many different entry points to address the issue.
Neelesh Singh: At the national level, we have got very different roles to play. The things comes from the bottom from the community itself. So every community, they prioritize their issues as per their need and as per they are affected by it and all.
Neelesh Singh: Many of the places, the issues are likethe state where I belong to. They have got witch hunting asone of the priority issue and then human trafficking is there. Domestic violence is almost there in almost every state is reporting [00:06:00] against domestic violence.
Neelesh Singh: Thenthe issues like child marriage. I can see wherever the incidence of poverty is high, you will find the incidence also of child marriages and such things are also high. Andthen we have got issues like dowry that here actually in India, we have this practice for the marriage.
Neelesh Singh: The bride's side, they have to give some money for getting married to the bridegroom. We call it the dowry system. It is like quite high, quite prevalent in several parts of the country and it's just very high. There's a cost for every bridegroom. So suppose if a girl is there and she wants to marry a doctor. What happens, there's two sides of it. One is that this girl has always, right from her birth, she has been brought up very differently. Here in India,we brought up our girl very different from the way we bring up our boys.While, they are, the boys would have [00:07:00] different aspiration and we will all support them. Like he wants to become doctor or engineer or whatever he wants to become. Every family member would try to support him, the father, mother, everybody would try to support this person. Girls child are largely, they are brought up like for being a very good wife. So they are like nurtured for being wife of somebody, and she can have dream of her bridegroom. She cannot dream about her own careers. Her career will be like a housewife. Housewife only, but she can dream about her bride groom. Okay? So I would want to marry a doctor. I would want to marry engineer. She cannot dream of becoming a doctor, becoming engineer. I don't like that. And higher aspirations are, the greater would be the price of the dowry that you have to pay. While in order to grow a boy child, the father would save the money and invest the money in his education. Here, father would save the money so that he can pay for the dowry. So he would try to [00:08:00] invest least on the education of the girl, so girl will be nurtured and will be taught, will be trained, as a good wife. So for doing the household chores and all these activities, while boys will be encouraged to go to a school and go to school and have good education.
Neelesh Singh: So this incidence of sometime it is though the parents and the child might have the dream of marrying a doctor, but their poverty, their economic status, that may not allow her and her parents to realize that dream. In the process, what happens that, and this is also based on the greed of the family, because this never ends, no?
Neelesh Singh: Suppose you say that 50 lakh is the amount that you need to pay for marrying this person. And then, even if you have paid 50 lakh, it doesn't stop you that asking this money again to her father. I know that you have paid 50 lakhs but I would need 10 more lakhs because now I have [00:09:00] to give education to the child, now she is giving birth to a girl child, so we have to do something. So they keep on asking, and this often leads to exploitations and also violence and extortion and all those things. So sometimes, so it leads to dowry death also.
Neelesh Singh: So you'll find lots of incidents. And all these incidents like human trafficking or domestic violence orwitch hunting ordowry or child marriage, all these things requires different kinds of strategies. It depends in which part of the country are you living and what kind of resources you have access to, and what kind of society do you, depending on what kind of culture do you have, what kind of accessibility you have. So all, depending upon all those things, you need to knit your strategy around it.
Neelesh Singh: One thing that we have in common under NRLM is that we form women-based groups. We call self help groups here. So here, NRLM is like one of, this is one of the program, National Rural Livelihood Mission. [00:10:00] In short, I'm calling it NRLM. This program islargest network of women collectives.
Neelesh Singh: Now, in the entire country, we have got more than 10 crew of now women who became part of our self help groups now. We try to keep this in our base that we need to build our strategy on these women collectives. So we promote women collectives to plan women collectives to take action against it, and we try to sensitize these women collectives against this, because, being, even though they, this is women collective, that doesn't mean that everybody will be very sensitive to the women issues.
Neelesh Singh: Sometime because they are from the same society, it takes some time and it takes time to understand what kind of system is existing there.How are they driver of the patriarchy and all those things. And by understanding all those things, by assessing the kind of gender sensitivity that they have, we need to, we have to plan their sensitization, their awareness, and their capacity building and all those things.
Neelesh Singh: And that's [00:11:00] how strategy is built upon. So there are several strategy. While we might have human trafficking there in most of the states, but our strategy might be very different in different part of the state, depending upon the different characteristics and resources that we have.
Josh Hutchinson: In your messages with us before the interview, you talked about the importance of collective action by women's collectives. What kind of action do you mean by that?
Neelesh Singh: Now let me give you the example ofincidents of witch-hunting and witch-branding. The foremost incident that I came across, there wasa member of our own women collective. She was, branded as witch by different people and eventually what happens, her own collective, her own self help groups, the people who have come together to help each other, they also started calling her witch. [00:12:00] And eventually what happened, her husband'sbig brother, elder brother, and his wife, both of them, they once decided to kill that lady, and they came with axe in her hand and then they try to attack her and she somehow she escaped from that house, but that didn't stop them to chase her and pull her down and all those things. But somehow she could save her life, but she couldn't save her house and her grains and all those things. Everything was put on fire.

Neelesh Singh: I raised this question to the collective that. While she was being branded, while she was being chased down by somebody, while somebody attempted to kill her, why is that, she was a member of your own group? Why didn't any of you came forward to help her? So they also said that because she's a witch, so killing a witch is, it's like saving everybody else. Otherwise she would have killed all of us. So it's like a good [00:13:00] thing.So that made us think again thatunless, until everyone is sensitized towards it, there's nothing we can do again becausepolice also couldn't take much action because nobody was ready to give any witness. No evidence was there.
Neelesh Singh: And then villagers shared several incidents in whichseveral of the lady who have been killed in the name of witch, no one had came forward to say against that crime or that well and nobody even knew that this is a crime. Everyone think that this is a good thing and they have done it for the collective goodness of everybody else.What was important is that at that time, at the peak of this hour, nobody was there in support of her. Even if some people wanted to support her, they were also, would have been killed eventually, because it is very hard to go against the entire crowd. You won't have that much of voice and that much of courage also. They would kill that woman in front of everyone.
Neelesh Singh: And I don't believe [00:14:00] that everyone would believe that this lady is a witch. I know there would be at least some supporter. Somebody would believe, her friend or maybe her daughter or her son, even her husband or maybe her parents, somebody would at least, would believe that this is not her. She has not killed that child. The child died because of fever and she was not around and she wouldn't have caused any fever to that child. Why are you saying that you have casted bad eyes? She, I don't think that she would have casted any bad eyes on that child and all those things.
Neelesh Singh: You cannot intervene at the time and people have started taking out their weapon, want to kill that person. At that time, it's very difficult to intervene. You're going to start intervening right from the beginning. You can start recognizing who are the person who believe in rationality, who are the person who believe that this violence is against only women. It is not against any man also, because all the cases that we have, I think more [00:15:00] 95% were women only, and all those 5% male people who have been killed in the name of witch they were also, they were only supporter tothat lady. So this is a weapon which man folks are using against their women to take control of the women and all. We had to build up this and we wanted that this discussion should to start happening in our group. Because our self help groups was not limited only for helping each other during the economic crisis. These are also the things where they can discuss all those things in their groups. When we were going through their minute books and in the meeting minutes books, we realized that they never discussed any kind of violence within their self help groups, like nobody would discuss about any domestic violence, even though they wanted to discuss these things, but never believed on any of their member. They thought that if we will tell them about that my husband has beaten me yesterday [00:16:00] night, this incidents will reach out to her husband and again, and then she will get more bashing after that when she go back home. And while everybody in that group was suffering from domestic violence at some point of time or other, but nobody was ready to help each other. Nobody had any belief in each other, so just a note. What we wanted to do is we wanted to make this platform as a platform which has got a greater credibility in which members can discuss about these things, as well. This is a very private thing to talk about, but we wanted them to be that close where they can discuss about the kind of violence that is going through or the kind of stigma, the kind of embarrassing moment that they are living every day. Somebody might be sleeping very hungry, but she needs to tell that.
Neelesh Singh: In India, I'm not sure about other part of the country, but in India, what happens that, if a lady gets beaten up by [00:17:00] the husband, she won't tell to anyone, she thinks that, that it is the honor of the family. So she, he has to take care of the honor of the family. So she will, if the husband's beats her in open, she will rush to the home, and she will close all the door, all the window. And then she will request her husband to keep his voice down, and then you can beat me, but keep your voice down. Nobody should listen to this. And then next day,she will try to remove all the strains from her face and everything, and then she'll go back to the work like that.I don't know why this burden is there on her. She's the victim, she's the survivor. We wanted them to believe that she is not the only savior of the honor and she. And there's some responsibility of males are also there in it, and she, it's okay if she shares her story, and it's okay that everyone tries collectively to stop each other's husband from doing it and seeking some legalservices if it requires so. There are like, [00:18:00] police are there,legal services are there, all these are meant for women also, and it's okay if they go and seek out this help. These poor,the only strength that they have, they don't have money, they don't have much resources with them, but the thing that they have is their collectiveness, their numbers, they're such a high number. And we are organizing them, making them organize is, I think, we are hoping that this will give strength to them against such a horrendous crime.
Sarah Jack: So I'm hearing you say that just bringing them together is just the start. They also have to be educated and encouraged to make positive responses together as a collective.
Neelesh Singh: We learn from different parts of the country because at the national level, we don't have any other geography to work on, but different states they work on, they have their own geography. So we learn [00:19:00] from different states.
Neelesh Singh: So we have got a state called Kerala here, and they also, they are like much mature state in the sense, they have got very old women collectives, so they, now it is more than 20 years or 30 years, I'm not sure. But it is that long that women have been organized, and they are now working on the gender issues. One of the strategy that they have is they map the crimes in the villages. So every village. Women collectively, along with the district administration, along with the government officials, they map crime, what kind of crime happens in which corner of the village,this is where domestic violence happened, this is where, so likewise, they, they map the crime, and then they also map, then they also do safety audit, with different kinds of women folks and of different age group. What happens is that maybe a pregnant woman and a lactating mother or an elderly women and a person with disability. All those women, they will walk [00:20:00] in the night and also in the day in different parts of that village, and will tell that what kind of incidents happens here and who among all of us they are feel safe here, or feel unsafe here, and what kind of incidents does happen.
Neelesh Singh: They can say that this road is not safe for pregnant women to walk on, or this road is not safe for, or this building is not safe fora person with disability to go into or take any services, or here people are not friendly about it. So, Likewise, they will map all the problems, and then they'll also come up with a solution. I think there is a CCTV, if you can put here, then it will serve some problem. If you can close down that liquor shop, I think that will also close down some issue. If you can just put some lights here, because there's so much of dark, and if you can put some light. So like this, they will also propose the solution. And that prevents so much of violence to happen. This comes into the village plan, village annual action plan of that village, which you can[00:21:00] follow up, which district admission can follow up with on a regular basis that this was the plan and this was what approved and how much of it has been really implemented and where is the gap?
Sarah Jack: You'd mentioned you also wanted to talk about the healing and empowerment of witch hunt survivors.
Neelesh Singh: During the initial period, what happened is thatwe had identified,we used to develop a theater team of rural women. We used to train them on theaters. So there was a person who was a professional theater person. So we hired his services for passing this skills on or training the women on theater.And then there, we also took the services of some of the organizations who were working on the legal issues for documenting the cases. So we made a group of10 people in each team. So there were several teams. So every team had 10 women who were trained on [00:22:00] theater and who were trained also on documenting the cases.
Neelesh Singh: And we would put that team in a village for two days or so. So they used to stay there also in the night. So two days and two nights, they need to stay there, and they would play this theater there. and then eventually what would happen is that somebody in the village would relate her story with the story which they were showing in the theater. And because they were staying in the same village, so the women who were already been branded as witch. She would relate her story with the story which they were showing in the theater, and they would, and she could, she can also access them because they were staying in the same village.
Neelesh Singh: So that's how they would identify the cases. They would identify the women who have been branded as witch.So becausethe experience has taught us that,first they will brand somebody as which, and after that only, maybe after some period of, after some years, after some months, or maybe after, some decades, they will kill them.[00:23:00]
Neelesh Singh: So they cannot kill anybody before they brand her as witch. So first they need to brand her witch. Then they needs to convince everybody that she's witch and then only this killing will happen or public lynching will happen. So our strategy was to identify such women who have been branded as witch and then to call up a public hearing in which we used to calljudiciary, police, and different government officials and panchayat people. All those publicfigures, we used to call them because it was ultimately, it was their responsibility for the security and safety of every citizen of India.
Neelesh Singh: So we'll call each of them and then we'll hand over this list to them,that, we are not making this list public, but we are handing over to you publicly,handing over this list to you personally so that you take care of the safety and security of this person. This person has been branded as witch, and we don't want this person to be get killed also. Soif that person is getting killed, then you should be [00:24:00] held accountable for that. So that's how they ensure the protection of that lady.
Neelesh Singh: So we used to identify such.This theater group, they used to go village after village. They used to cover every village, and they used to identify. In the first round, we identified 65 of them. When we covered in one go, we covered 40 villages of one block before we called for public hearing. So 65 lady were identified as witch, who have been branded as witch and they were living a very pathetic life in their own village. And this was the first time we were interacting with such women. And we called off all these women to a place herein a city. And it was aluxurious hotel, and we kept this workshop for three days there. And we had called our several partner who were champion in working on the gender-based violence. And we also had several trainers along with us.
Neelesh Singh: And when we were there in that hotel, and anything that we would ask them, we will ask, what is [00:25:00] their name? They would take so much of time to speak out their name. And their tears were not stopping, and they were just crying. And I think by the lunch, they said that this is the first time that after such a long period of, somebody was saying 10 years or 20 years, that somebody was interacting with them and that they are getting such a good food and so many people are giving respect to them. They're talking to her, all those things. And this was,we got moved by their gestures, by their tears and everything. That's where we got to know that just saving their life is not enough. They also need to live their life and they need to live their life very normally. You know, we need to normalize all those things, and they need to come out from that fear. And they, everybody, the kind of incidents that the ladies were sharing,one of them,
Neelesh Singh: so [00:26:00] one of the lady, she said that her house is situated,at the end of the village, somewhere in the corner of the village. It was made oftwigs and straw and all those things, bushes and all those things. It was made of, it was like just one kick and the entire house will collapse. That kind of hut, it was a hut. Andshe was saying that every day, every night and in every night, somebody would come and will pass urine on the wall of the house. Some of the urine will also enter the house from there because it is anyway made of some thatches and some twigs and all those things, so the winds can pass on from that. So urine will also pass from that while, and it doesn't matter where she's sleeping or cooking or whatever she might be doing, but this person will pass urine and will say, 'look, my child is sick, and I know that you have casted bad eye, your bad [00:27:00] eyes.By morning, if my child is not okay, then I am going to kill you.' And this will happen to her almost every night. Somebody in the entire village would fall in. Somebody will lost something or maybe somebody will suffer from some pain, and she would become the cause for that. Everybody would believe that she's the cause for that.
Neelesh Singh: And living a life like that for such a long period was like. I cannot even imagine such a horrendous life to be. what we thought is,and if you cannot, you need to bring her out from the kind of suffering that she is undergoing and the kind of state of mind that she's living in, and we are talking about so many people here. They might be very elderly, or they might be very at the end of their life, but still they deserve a good life to lead and whatever life is left for them. So that time, we thought that some counseling would be okay for them. [00:28:00] So we did organize for some counseling and butafter that we thought that there has to be some way in which we can continuously engage with them. So one thing which occurred to all of us was,let us give them training on theater and make them as part of our theater group. And they can go to different villages and aware people against witch-hunting and because they can share their own story and that will be real story and they can influence people like they can understand the pain they're going through.
Neelesh Singh: And we have seen that just giving them like our, the trainer who used to give training on theater, when he saw the entire participants, all of them were like above the age of seventies. That was a challenge for him. He has never taught such elderly people on theater, but that was just like six training, six day residential training.
Neelesh Singh: But that slowly he understood the [00:29:00] power that they had, and the six days when they were staying together and they were discussing about all those things, it gave them so much of space for sharing their story and learning from them and opening up and all those things. And when they became the part of the theater group, when they learn from different people and when they able to, saw that they are so many, they also can make friends, they are people who also support them. They are people who enjoy talking to them or being with them, who can share their food with them or they can eat from the same plate in which she is eating and they can sleep, they can sleep in the same room in which she is sleeping. So it was like, it was a moment for them. It was like giving their life back and theater had this power to heal all those things and to give them the voice.
Neelesh Singh: We saw this power in theater. That's where,people said that theater and music. Everybody, everything, all these things has power of healing, also. They can heal the pain which is there inside you. They [00:30:00] can give you a voice.
Neelesh Singh: There's a friend called Alina and she is an art therapist. So she told me that I practice art therapy. We never heard such thing called art therapy. We wanted to know what is this art therapy. So she said, 'art also has, fine arts, this also has the power of healing andfrom the art, the kind of art that you make, I can make out the kind of suffering that you are undergoing through and the kind of pain that you are feeling and all those things. And we will, I will try to heal all those thingsfrom the art only.'
Neelesh Singh: So what happened, she was at that time, she was also suffering from cancer. And while she was undergoing through
Neelesh Singh: this chemotherapy. And she couldn't have come to our place from Jharkhand, but she was living in Bangalore. So we had organized an online thing for her. We had organizeda big screen, mic, and speakers. And then she said, 'at one time I can maybe [00:31:00] start with eight or nine people.' So that was okay for us, because we also had the challenge of a bigger room anyway, so we had all those, whatever she said, if she wanted some brush and paints and newspapers and some drawing papers and all those things. So we had organized for her and she was, she used to speak in English, whereas our people, they used to understand Hindi. So we had one interpreter also with us.
Neelesh Singh: And so we would call all those eight survivors in front of the big screen. And then she said, 'you can keep all the paints in front of them, all every color in front of them.' And she would just ask him, 'okay, paint it, whatever you want and choose whatever color that you want, choose whatever brush that you want. This is a newspaper is there in front of you. You have blank papers also, you have drawing papers also. Paint whatever.' To our surprise, almost every one of them chose dark color. And while they had the choice of several colors to select from, [00:32:00] they, everyone chose only one or two color.
Neelesh Singh: We were not expert in that, but Alina, she said, 'this is studying them. This is studying the kind of that pain that they are undergoing through. This is a dark side that they have and all of them have selected only newspaper, used paper to, to draw on. So that also tells about their confidence. They didn't have the confidence to paint any blank papers or any drawing paper or wasting, so they would not take such chance.Slowly, she would interact with them. She would tell her about her own story and then try to listen to them and would try to make them open up about all those things.
Neelesh Singh: And slowly, all of them, they shifted from newspaper to actual drawing paper, and then they started using more colors and all, and then, eventually, she asked them to paint a big wall and, it wascollectively they had to paint a wall, and she said, 'the larger is the picture, the louder the voice is about,' because they are communicating through their painting. [00:33:00] That's what they are doing.
Neelesh Singh: It was our collective's office, our,the women collective's office, they offered her their wall, office wall to them that you can paint your picture here. So it was like collective, it was showing a collective support towards such women.
Neelesh Singh: And then, eventually the police station of that block, they offered their entire wall, the boundary wall of the entire police station to them, that you can paint your picture here, and this wall is for you. So it was like entering into the police station and painting their walls and all those things which had never, and they had never been to police station before that.
Neelesh Singh: I think that, that was like working for them. That was encouraged Other part of the districts, other part of the state also to came for who came forward who wanted you know this thing so Alinashe gave us, started giving us two days in a week for two other districts.
Sarah Jack: So that's how we scaled it up, and [00:34:00] all those who got healed, who said that they are now healed. Then we had on a, in a residential mode. So we had this three, four days of workshop, drawing workshop train them on a special kind of painting called Sohrai painting and Kohvar painting. There were two kinds of regional painting, which was of Jharkhand. They would start training on them. So they were trained on these two kinds of painting. And then we got this chance to take this painting to the exhibition And there they selected this painting and we, when we had called a state level workshop to share our story, to share the story of our strategies with the rest of the world. So there we had this chance to givetheir painting as gift to the honorable guest of that workshop. And they were, they feel quite proud and accepting that as a gift. I'm really hearing today how pulling people together and then [00:35:00] finding a way to give somebody their humanity and then this collective, this coming alongside and then giving humanity back is like a start.
Neelesh Singh: In one of the village, I think it was, around 60 year old lady, she was called as witch by other women of that village. And also male people of that village. And all of them, they stripped this woman naked in front of the village. And then they applied some black color on her face and made her parade around the village and all those things. It was in the full daylight, and her son, was such helpless, he wanted to help his mother butcouldn't do that. And his friend stopped him from doing such thing.And [00:36:00] we had this collective in every village and there is a federation called cluster level federation, which is like a federation of 20 or 25 villages, like after that it federates into a cluster level federation. So this cluster level federation had 21 village under that federation, and in one of the village, this thing happened.This collective of 21 village, they took the decision to felicitate that lady and to show their support towards that lady and they took out rally from each of their village and they brought the clothes and money and some food grains and some flour and everything, and then theyfelicitated that lady in front of every villager and they showered her with the food or and the clothes.
Neelesh Singh: They said that since your clothes was stripped by these people, so every village is offering you these clothes now to you, and this is to honor you [00:37:00] and to support you and to give this message to all the villages here that nothing will ever happen to you, and nothing will happen to any of the persons here. We all, collectives are here to support everyone. From now on, if anyone tries to call anyone as witch, then we will take action against that person. We'll take that person behind the bar with the help of police and everyone, and this was almost for the first time that people were showing support to anybody called witch. Before that, they had never seen anyone supporting witch such openly in such an open forum. And here it was like people coming from every corner of the villages and rallying against that incident. And then it was reported in media, it was reported in TV and newspapers. And so everybody was talking about such support.
Neelesh Singh: So [00:38:00] that gave a strength to them, and they wanted their chief minister, the head of the state to give this statement that he won't tolerate this malpractice of witch-branding and witch-hunting. And he vows to make the state free from witch-branding and witch-hunting. They wanted the chief minister to give out this statement. So that incident of one particular village sparked the other collective of living in different parts of that state for carrying out a signature campaign against this signature was taking the signature of every officials also, and then I think more than 50,000 signature was shared with the chief minister asking him to give this statement. And then he gave this statement and also asked the department to work against witch-hunting and witch-branding practices and make this a state free from this. Share with me the strategy that you have for this. So it was very [00:39:00] encouraging for our women.
Josh Hutchinson:
Neelesh Singh: One more thing which I would like to share is that while all these things,working with government, it's important, because what happens while we are working with NGOs, we, somehow, we can work in some pockets, we can work in smaller geography, but it is important that it's a responsibility of the state and the state must realize it is their work, finally, to make this country free from such a horrendous practice. So giving importance to such a thing is, I think, we have to create this agency of such survivor. We need to build this network of all those survivors of witch-hunting and make their agency so that they can talk, sit with the government, and make the policy for themselves. And talk with the media, sit in the media, and tell the media that this is a very [00:40:00] important issue and they must raise about this issue. While it's okay that you cover so many other things, but this is also an important issue. So please do cover that. So I think that's important for us to build an agency of such survivors. So while we have identified so many survivors, I think it's a long way to go to form their agency.
Josh Hutchinson: And now for a minute with Mary.
Mary-Louise Bingham: On behalf of End Witch Hunts, I am pleased to tell our listeners that I will be working with Neelesh Singh and his team as we help the survivors of witch hunts to tell their stories through music, art, and theater. As I hold a degree in music education with a background in piano and voice studies, I will work within the team to help the survivors find their voices through song.
Mary-Louise Bingham: I am honored. I may be a small part of helping them find their voice, but the survivors and the more experienced team members will teach me so [00:41:00] much more beyond my current comprehension. I also have the full support of our board members, Sarah Jack, Joshua Hutchinson, Beth Caruso, and Jen Stevenson, who will do whatever they can to help in this endeavor. After all, whenever one of us reaches out to make a difference, we do so not only as individuals, but as a board of strong advocates who will help each other to actively make a difference.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has End Witch Hunts news.
Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a non profit 501c3 organization, Weekly News Update. Trial by ordeal is an ancient practice where the guilt or innocence of an accused person is determined through a physically or mentally challenging test. It has been a method of justice throughout history, reflecting deeply rooted beliefs in divine intervention and the supernatural.
Sarah Jack: Trials by ordeal, which depend on supernatural beliefs and physical tests to [00:42:00] ascertain guilt or innocence, lack the procedural fairness and evidentiary standards we expect in modern legal systems. Despite this, even the more formal witch trials of history were not immune to these practices, incorporating superstitious beliefs and physical tests to determine guilt. This enduring fear of witchcraft, along with the intention to prove malicious acts, highlights a continuous thread in human history. When such practices emerge in today's society, they echo historical precedents, revealing an ongoing struggle to balance myth with the principles of justice.
Sarah Jack: Guinea-Bissau is a country of Western Africa situated on the Atlantic coast. It is about 44.1 percent urban and 55.9 percent rural. As of 2022, male life expectancy was averaging 61.5 years and female life expectancy was 66 years. In 2022, their female population amounted to approximately 1.07 million, while the male population amounted to approximately [00:43:00] 1.04 million.
Sarah Jack: The Advocacy for Alleged Witches, spearheaded by Leo Igwe, is sounding the alarm on an urgent human rights issue in this African country. There was an incident this month, February 2024, in the Culade region of Cacheu. Here, eight women were tragically killed and 20 other women hospitalized after being forced to consume a poisonous potion by a traditional priest to determine if they were guilty of witchcraft. These women were all over the age of 50. This incident is not isolated but indicative of a wider systemic problem that transcends time and local cultural practices and points to a global responsibility. The belief in witchcraft crimes and the barbaric practice of trial by ordeal reflect an ongoing societal failure to protect the vulnerable and uphold justice. Witch hunts, often targeting women, expose the gendered nature of this violence, revealing deep-seated misogyny and societal complicity in these acts. The call to [00:44:00] action by the Advocacy for Alleged Witches is not only a plea for the local government to intervene but a wake up call to the world. We are the world. Legal and administrative measures against those implicated in such abuses are necessary, but so is a broader societal shift to address the impunity that allows this violence to continue. The introduction of emergency helplines and targeted actions against perpetrators are steps in the right direction. However, these actions must be a part of a larger concerted effort to stop superstitious accusations with education, protect the rights of women and vulnerable populations, and fundamentally change how societies, how the world views and addresses harmful acts due to accusations of witchcraft. This incident is a stark reminder that the fight against gender-based violence and the persecution of alleged witches is not solely the responsibility of Guinea-Bissau or any single nation. It is a global challenge that demands a unified response from all corners of the world.
Sarah Jack: Thank you for listening today. Thank you for your [00:45:00] financial gifts. Visit aboutwitchhunts.com/ to donate any amount you're comfortable with. Your generosity is the backbone of the podcast content you value. Let's commit to making a difference together.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Keep the conversation going in your sphere until you join us next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

February 27, 2024

Caring for the Mental Health of Women in Ghana’s Witch Camps with Peter Mintir Amadu

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United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks

Witchcraft in the Granite State: Unveiling New Hampshire’s Witch Trials with Tricia Peone

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Show Notes

We expand our advocacy discussion on modern day witch hunts and human rights abuses associated with accusations related to witchcraft to Ghana. Guest Peter Mintir Amadu is the Executive Director of the Total Life Enhancement Center (TOLEC) Ghana, a non-profit organization dedicated to community mental health advocacy and support. Amadu discusses TOLEC’s immersive and strategic engagement with witch hunt survivors, including psychological assessments and group and individual therapies to address trauma. Despite the challenges of severly scarce resources and logistical difficulties, TOLEC aims to bolster specialized support in ongoing efforts.

This episode of ‘Witch Hunt’ underscores the necessity of increased intersectional cooperation, funding, and international awareness to tackle the global phenomenon of witch hunts.

Recommended Reading

Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization

Websites of Note

Total Life Enhancement Center, Ghana

The Sanneh Institute: Research, Religious, Society

Songtaba.org Securing Basic Rights for Women and Girls

Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom

Action Aid Ghana

Legal Resource Centre Ghana

Amnesty International, Ghana

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that brings you news from the front lines of the struggle against modern day witch hunts. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Modern day witch hunts, also known as Harmful Practices Related to Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks, are human rights abuses perpetrated against those believed to be witches or sorcerers.
Josh Hutchinson: These abuses include physical and emotional attacks leading to injury and even death.
Sarah Jack: Survivors are frequently traumatized by the harrowing experience of being accused of witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: In Ghana, witch hunt refugees flee to so called 'witch camps.'
Sarah Jack: These camps are for people [00:01:00] banished from their communities following witchcraft accusations.
Josh Hutchinson: Living conditions in the camps are deplorable, and the residents destitute.
Sarah Jack: However, concern is developing among advocates and within sectors of the national government in regard to the conditions at the camps and the future of the witch hunt victims.
Josh Hutchinson: One recent development has been onsite mental health intervention to address the victims' trauma.
Sarah Jack: This effort involved physicians from the Total Life Enhancement Center, TOLEC,a mental health facility located in Northern Region capital Tamale and led by Executive Director Peter Mintir Amadu.
Josh Hutchinson: We hung on every word in our engaging interview with Mr. Amadu, and we know that you will too.
Sarah Jack: In this episode, you will learn about the challenges faced by the victims of witchcraft accusation-related violence.
Josh Hutchinson: And about some different treatment methods being employed by TOLEC.
Sarah Jack: We are [00:02:00] delighted to introduce Peter Mintir Amadu, Executive Director of the Total Life Enhancement Center in Ghana and a leading figure in mental health. A licensed clinical health psychologist and university lecturer, Peter is pivotal in advancing mental health services in Northern Ghana.
Sarah Jack: He advocates for mental health across multiple platforms. He mentors youth, and his work focuses on youth and maternal mental health issues. As chairman of the Ghana Psychological Association's Northern Sector, Peter's
Sarah Jack: commitment extends to providing consultation and training.
Peter Mintir Amadu: My name is Peter Mintir Amadu. My background is clinical health psychologist. I'm a lecturer at the University for Development Studies. The University for Development Studies is the premier university in the north. The northern part of Ghana has about five regions, and it was the very first university in the north.
Peter Mintir Amadu: I am affiliated to the Tamale Teaching Hospital, of which I do [00:03:00] a clinical health psychologist consulting at the internal medicine and virtually for the entire hospital. As it stands now,I'm just among two other psychologists that operate within the Tamale Teaching Hospital as a tertiary and a referral facility.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Come to initiatives, what have I initiated as a person? You got me through an organization called Total Life Enhancement Center. That is my initiative. I just felt that a people, we didn't do so much regarding mental health. And in 2017, I established this organization with a lot of young ones around me. So I founded the organization and I lead it at the civil society space where we advocate for mental health in schools, radio, and in the communities. So Total Life Enhancement Center is a [00:04:00] psychology-focused organization and the first private psychology clinic in the entire northern Ghana. I've mentioned that Northern Ghana has five regions, administrative regions.
Peter Mintir Amadu: My second initiative has been in the area of mental health advocacy. So in schools, radio, community, religious organization, and CSOs, health facilities and corporate organizations are places where my services and my skill and my passion have actually driven me to.
Peter Mintir Amadu: What have I supported? I've tried to be a mentor to a lot of young ones in the mental health space who are seeking to appreciate what mental health is and understand. So basic, senior high school, and then the tertiary level.
Peter Mintir Amadu: What are my research interest? I really have great interest in the area of youth and maternal mental health. That's my area of interest. And recently an article [00:05:00] entitled, 'Drug Abuse Among the Youth of Northern Region, The Realities of Our Time.' And that is really taking a lot of shape in the academic space.
Peter Mintir Amadu: What's my passion? What has been driving me as a person over the period? I must admit, to make available mental health services to my people has been my passion. And also to make greatly available psychological services to our operational areas. I have played different roles as a person over the period of time in the north. I have been in the Ghana Health Service over two decades, and so I have worked as the chairman of the Ghana Psychological Association members in the Northern sector, psychologist to CSOs in the northern region of Ghana and a service provider to a lot of organizations. And so in brief, this is what I'll say who Peter Mintir [00:06:00] Amadu is.
Josh Hutchinson: What more can you tell us about the Total Life Enhancement Center?
Peter Mintir Amadu: Yes. Life Enhancement Center, Ghana. TOLEC is an organization with a primary focus in psychology, so the abbreviation is T O L E C G H, and we call it TOLEC. TOLEC is dedicated to the promotion and advocacy towards improving psychological well being. We say that Tolec is an organization that provides mental health and psychosocial support services.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And our vision is to be a center that employs the biopsychosocial and the scientist practitioner approach to delivering comprehensive assessment and health promotion services. The vision of TOLEC is to be a center dedicated to advocating for and delivering holistic health solutions through both local and [00:07:00] external competent methods to our clients. This approach is aimed at enhancing psychological wellbeing, thereby fostering increased productivity and development.
Peter Mintir Amadu: What's our mandate? Our mandate as an organization is to enhance the location of psychological resources to benefit society through our contribution. TOLEC operates in six thematic areas: mental health advocacy, psychological service provision, counseling services, emotional intelligence and management, livelihood empowerment of capacity building, and mental health research. TOLEC is currently located in the Northern Regional Capital, Tamale, in the Sanaribu Municipality. So this is a little I will say about TOLEC, and TOLEC as a psychology clinic and a service provider have been in the advocacy space [00:08:00] since 2018, and we have done advocacy in schools, radios, communities, and corporate organizations, and we currently stand as among one of the very best mental health service organizations in northern Ghana. Even when it comes to the issues of psychological services, we are the first in the entire northern part of Ghana to provide psychological services as an organization.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So this is the bit I would say about Total Life Enhancement Center Ghana, TOLEC.
Sarah Jack: I found your center online when I was doing some research around some alleged witchcraft violence, and I saw that you have an initiative to support women who have been in witch camps. Is that one of your outreaches at your facility?
Peter Mintir Amadu: Yes please. It's one of the outreaches we have undertaken in [00:09:00] the recent past. We have been involved in giving some support to a number of women. In 2020, I was part of a group of organizations. TOLEC was part of a group of organizations that, roll out a number of activities. But the focus at that was with health workers in the districts that hosted this Alleged Witch Camps.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Last year, we took this initiative, and this initiative was supported by the Commission of Human Rights and Administrative Justice (CHRAJ). And they actually partnered us, basically supported almost every bit of the logistical bit of it to go provide, because they came to us. We have been to these women. We have done the normal physical examinations with them. We provided medication, but there's an aspect that has never been talked about. But the organization said to me, 'do you want to do [00:10:00] something with this?' I said, 'why not? It is an opportunity we have all been looking out for.' So they said, 'okay. Get out there and pack your bag and baggage and go to four districts in the north and perform these particular activities for us.'
Peter Mintir Amadu: So I immediately have to put in place a group of psychologists, that was counseling psychologists, health psychologists, and clinical psychologists, and clinical health psychologists. They were the people I rallied behind to look back. Then, we took up this mantle, and we spent a little over two weeks engaging these women at the alleged witch camps. And so our intervention was the first of its kind in the area of mental health, because people are going in there, but not with assessment in the area of psychology. So we went in there doing psychological assessment.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And what we basically did was to use a particular psychological tool we call DASS, Depression, Anxiety, and Stress [00:11:00] Skill. That is well, utilize and also, and trying to look at some level of distress, psychological distress among these women. So after administering these tools, we found data that was very interesting. Data that was very, at a point, if not for my background as a professional, very scary.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Scary in the sense that a lot of them who have stayed in there years, decades, have nobody to look after them, no shelter, no food, no healthcare, and in most of the places they live in very deplorable states. I, I possibly would delve deeper into this, but let me say that our, that was quite revealing for us, because when it came to the issues of depression, we were quite interested and we realized that even though after administering the psychological [00:12:00] tools, which I must admit we went in there to do an assessment for just around 300 women. We ended up doing a little over 350 women, alleged witches. this was carried out in four districts in Ghana, and those four districts, three of them are found in the northern region. Then one is found in the northeast region of Ghana. And the three found in the northern region of Ghana are the Kpatinga Alleged Witch Camp, which is found in the Gushegu Municipal District. Then we had the Kukuo Witch Camp, which is found in the Nanumba South. And then we had a Gnani Alleged Witch Camp, which is found in the Yendi municipality. Yendi is, call it our [00:13:00] traditional capital. Yendi sits the overlord of our region, call it, I mean we call it, the, the overlord of Dagbon. And so the parliament chief of the northern region sit in Yendi, and in his district also is where, we find the Gnani Alleged Witch Camp. So these 3 are found in northern region. Then in the northeast region is found Gambaga Alleged, Witch Camp, and Gambaga is one administrative district, a colonial administrative district. In the colonial era, Gambaga was one of the, I mean renowned district that govern northern region. So in the colonial era, they had more of Gambaga than even Tamale, where, which is now well pronounced.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So what did we find among the 335 women in terms of psychological distress? We had [00:14:00] 73% of our respondents, that's a little around 247 participants, who were assessed to have high level of psychological distress. Depression we assess among these groups as 61 percent of the participants. Anxiety was around 72%. And the issues of stress related was around 38%. So this was what we found at the alleged witch camps, where we were supported by the Commission on Human Rights and Administrative Justice to do an assessment and provide intervention.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So this was the assessment, what we found among them. Many people have come to know very well that when it comes to the issues of alleged witches or witchcraft accusations, a lot of organizations have often [00:15:00] put their energies around the physical bit of it. And two, three years ago, we had the experience of a woman, an old woman who was allegedly accused and beaten to death, and that actually triggered a lot of conversation in the Ghanaian media space regarding the issues of alleged witches. What can we do? And that actually initiated the legislation in the Ghanaian parliament, which is almost at the verge of completion, where accusation of alleged witchcraft will become criminal in the Ghanaian laws.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And these have been terms that we have been finding as, from our research as a professional and leading this institution towards the provision of psychological assessment and intervention. I will take the intervention bit, but I'm sure you may want to ask a bit of questions regarding this.
Sarah Jack: I'm amazed [00:16:00] at what you are tackling for your community.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Thank you.
Josh Hutchinson: At this point, do you have plans to return to do more intervention with these women?
Peter Mintir Amadu: Yes. We have a lot of plans towards, engaging further with these women. But, one after our assessment, so the intervention, but what we did, we, after we collected this psychological assessment and found these, what we did was to put the women in group therapy. So we first of all put them in groups, and our psychologists engage them in at different levels, providing support. And then we also went further to then provide individual intervention, because in the group, lemme mention that in our country and,in the space of Sub-Saharan Africa, issues of mental health and, psychotherapy, not well appreciated. We [00:17:00] went on, people can be in the groups and may not talk, so after engaging them at a group level, we decided to also open an opportunity for a number of the women to go talk to the psychologist on one-on-one basis.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And we basically spent, for logistical sakes, we spent two days in every community. We wish we did more. But the logistics were our challenge. So after providing that, we came back and we provided a report to the Commission of Human Rights and Administrative Justice. On our part, as an organization, what we have been thinking is we know psychological therapy will not yield results overnight, and if it will not yield results overnight, what else do we need to do?
Peter Mintir Amadu: We began this year with some more planning as to what is it that we can go back to the community, but the numbers are huge.
Sarah Jack: Yeah.
Peter Mintir Amadu: The numbers are huge. Even when we got in there and the idea was to do 300, we ended up doing [00:18:00] 300 plus. And even doing 350, I mean35, was just because we were running out of the logistics that were being provided. If we had stayed in there, we would have seen closer to 500 people. And that tells us that the numbers are there. And the idea is to, from this year, to see how we can at least either every six months, if we have the resources, or every quarter to go back there, provide an intervention. But first of all, I often have said that the issues of mental health cannot be talked to people in, in, call it hungry stomachs. The belly is not full. They are not going to listen. So our idea has been, how can we then go back to them with a picnic style of therapy, where we are dining with them and providing therapy, letting them understand that, yes, you are here, the challenges are there, but don't give up. [00:19:00] Life still means a lot for you.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So we are still mobilizing the resources and pushing at our own level to see how we can go back, provide 335 that we have already seen and extend that therapy beyond the individuals. And the idea has always been to also reach out to the communities, these four communities in which these alleged witch,camps are situated. They need support. They need mental health education, they need psychotherapy themself, and they need capacity building, because when they have it these women can be supported, because a number of the women listening to them said that any time at all we are troubled, those who are, who come to our help, our aid, are the chiefs, the community leaders, the assembly members, but these are people who are into a great, but barely doing minimal farming. So when they harvest, it becomes insufficient even for their own families. Let's talk of [00:20:00] supporting another family. So building their capacity, providing agri related support for them so that they can be able to till the land enough to also feed these women.
Peter Mintir Amadu: We have been thinking of also partnering with other organizations, because a number of organizations are in the area of supporting women. A lot of them are shying away from the support for these vulnerable women who, just allegation, there is no substance in it. Culture, religion, superstition. Then they push them there. Because I keep asking the question, how come we don't have the very elite members of our society, their mothers in these alleged witch camps, but the poor woman that have nobody to defend, the poor woman that the woman that have nobody to talk for, are those who are always accused and put in there, and hunger, lack of shelter, water, [00:21:00] proper, mean sanitary condition becomes a challenge for these women.
Sarah Jack: Yeah.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So we really have intention of going back. But we hope we can go back there in another style where we can be able to dine and feast with them and provide therapy, stay there a bit longer than two, three days is the target we're hoping.
Sarah Jack: Clearly, it was a significant event that your team was able to go and engage in these camps and collect this significant data and then I can see how it would also be a very big effort for you to use that data to get support to move forward in the program.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Yeah. So we are currently trying to document a bit around this, and we have actually done a little around social media publication, working a bit to see how we can publish this in academic journal. So [00:22:00] that we can be able to tell the story. We are still hoping that the district assembly, the government, the region, and then well-meaning individuals will come our aid so that we can go back there and provide enough, but this data really is something I know we can use and to make an impact in society.
Sarah Jack: Am I understanding that right now, the president has not signed the legislation on these witch camps? If he does close them, how does that impact these communities?
Peter Mintir Amadu: Thank you. You are right. I think, currently the advocacy in the civil society space is to get the president's assent to this bill and make it law, and we're hoping that this will happen before his tenure of office, which is just in the 7th of January, come next year. If that so happens, we know that [00:23:00] will create another huge need for our people.
Peter Mintir Amadu: But the refreshing part of it is that engaging these women, a good number of them are willing to go back to the communities. So reintegration should be the plan forward, so that in the event where these camps are closed down, where can they go back? Go back to their communities, go back to their families, and the communities need to be sensitized.
Peter Mintir Amadu: The communities need to be engaged, and so it means advocacy needs to get to the community, to understand that these women are just like your mothers. These women are just like those women you have at home, who could be wives, sisters, aunties, Grandma. And all that we can give them at this moment is to say that you have been with us, and it is a difficult moment that probably you have nobody to support you the way you would have wished.
Peter Mintir Amadu: But we are here as a community, and we are hoping that we can be able to provide you. [00:24:00] Because of the desire of a number of them to go back to their communities, if this law comes into force and these communities are,dissolved, what it means is that a good number of them will be more ready to go back, have people to accept them.
Peter Mintir Amadu: The few that have no support, we can look for a reintegrative process where we can engage chiefs, leaders, assembly members to see how they can absorb them. Already, some of the camps have become like towns, have become like big communities. So the women are already very comfortable. A good number of them, they're into agri, into one, I mean small businesses, and they're already doing well. So those of them who don't wanna go back can be supported.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So in the process of, if these things are dissolved, what we can do is to build their capacity to be well supported. So in terms of economics, in terms of their health care, [00:25:00] and in terms of their general well being, because once they have capital, they have resources, when they are not well, they will go to the hospitals. When they are not well, they'll go to health facilities and look for support. But some of their challenges have always been that, even when I'm not well, I have no money. Even though a good number of them, in Ghana we operate the health insurance system. A good number of them are active health insurance users, but sometimes the facilities are at a distance and they may need even transport to arrive there. So when they are dissolved, I think they can be some level of capacity building for the women, some level of support so that they can be sustaining. So income generating activities to sustain themselves.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And I, that's what I can say if this ever, if it ever happens in the foreseeable future.
Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned that you're hoping to work with other organizations that deal with women's [00:26:00] issues. When violence against women is considered in Ghana, is witchcraft based violence part of that conversation? Are these other groups already talking about the witchcraft allegations, or have they yet to get involved in that?
Peter Mintir Amadu: I'm here to get deeper conversations with them. Yes,I have just seen an article about them. I really didn't have so much information. If there is a way, I mean, I'll go into the website and try to get more information, but if there's a way we can connect, you are able to connect us too, we can work greatly together towards supporting, because some other people may have what I call the logistical support. We have a technical support, psychologists, but if we are not able to carry them there, they may not be able to do this particular great service to our women. So I'm looking for that partnership.
Peter Mintir Amadu: There is this other organization called Songtaba, and Songtaba is a women's [00:27:00] rights organization, and they have often engaged us very much when it comes to the issues of alleged witches, and they have, they were those that engaged me to work with them.
Peter Mintir Amadu: We're also trying to talk to the health workers within the district that these camps are found, because a lot of them do receive them at the hospital level, and what support they can give them. So I've often served as a consultant for them in the area of helping the health workers. Now, going to the women, they were not part of it, and we are hoping that we can be able to draw them into the system.
Peter Mintir Amadu: We're also trying to talk to the district assembly, talk to the municipal assemblies, the administrative district, to see. We have something we call the District Assembly Common Fund, and an aspect of it is supposed to be spent on the less vulnerable in society. How can this four districts make this a little token towards supporting mental health services of these women? It's a conversation I think we can begin to initiate.
Josh Hutchinson: [00:28:00] Based on your experience with the women, do you know what kinds of things they're accused of actually doing with witchcraft? What does witchcraft belief look like in Ghana?
Peter Mintir Amadu: Thank you very much. Yes, engaging and talking to a number of the women, what has brought them to the camps have been the fact that a brother's son woke up and said he saw me in his dream, and having seen me in his dream, I'm the one trying to stifle his progress in life. And that is the level of accusation.
Sarah Jack: One of the very elderly woman told me Ghana is a very communal community, where I must admit we love each other and we share a lot of things. And this woman, all that she told me, what brought her to the camp was the fact that as an old lady, [00:29:00] that's how she called herself, 'I was eating food, and this small boy was around my environment, and you can see the boy was looking hungry. I basically served the boy food. And this was my crime, accused of witchcraft, and so they have to banish me to come to that community.' And when they banish them, what they say is that they go there to perform a sacrifice, and when you go there to perform the sacrifice, and you don't return, it means all the accusation is true, and some of them go there, and they realize that even before I left the community, they were following me with cutlasses, with clubs, as if I am a chief. And when they get in there, and the chief of the community receive them, give them accommodation, give them the comfort that they need, some of them may not go back, and so they conclude, yes, our allegation is true.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Another woman said that her rival, in the Ghanaian space, we have a [00:30:00] number of women that are married to one man, so polygamy does exist in our environment. 'My rival, who is the second wife told my husband that she keeps seeing me in her dream and she realizes that her business is no longer going on as I mean it used to be. So I am the one responsible, and so the community come chasing me.' Do this woman find herself in the alleged witch camp?
Peter Mintir Amadu: The pathetic story I heard at this place was the story of one of the women? And what was her story? Her story was that 'I was accused of killing my own son. How did that happen? The child went to school, got to the university, got a job, and started to visit the village, was involved in [00:31:00] an accident and died. And they said that it is the mother, because the mother doesn't want the child to progress. And this woman's pathetic story was, 'if I can bear this child in my womb for nine months, nurse him for five good years, to go past what we used to call childhood killer diseases, why will I hurt this child? This time that he can fetch water for me to drink. This was how painful it was for this woman. If I can take care of a child who was helpless, this is the time you can probably say, mama, I am sending you MoMo, buy a little fish, buy a little meat to cook. Why would I take such a life?
Peter Mintir Amadu: These are the pathetic stories. And a number of them have been accused in ways that you just cannot imagine it. In our last activity we had, we also discovered [00:32:00] two men, or let me say a number of men, but two of them were willing to speak to us. So we have alleged wizards at some of the camps. And basically, their story didn't go far from that of the women. Because somebody see me as standing in the way of his progress. Was accusation because he's my uncle, and my uncle doesn't want my progress, and so my father will now put pressure and the community will put pressure and will banish this person from the community. Their stories are really pathetic.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And the deep seated pain alone is so much to bear for some of the women, and sometimes I look at it, I see. If all the things that we do as a country, as a region, and as a district, if we could even dedicate a little [00:33:00] resource towards the mental wellbeing of these women, I'm sure a lot of them can live there and still fulfill their life, but unfortunately, the issues of mental health little talked about in our country, because when it comes to the issues of mental health, even among the general population in Ghana, mental health literacy is very low.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And so access to mental health services become very low among our people. There is a document that was added in 2014 by a lot of researchers and, I mean pushed by the mental health authority. Our treatment gap currently in Ghana stands at 98%, and when they come to the issues of mental health resources, the professionals are really not available.
Peter Mintir Amadu: As I speak to you now, within the northern part of Ghana, we don't have [00:34:00] more than 10 practicing psychologists, and the northern part of Ghana is put all together, it's almost close to 5 million population, and this population have no adequate mental health resources. Talk about psychologists.
Sarah Jack: And so currently, a lot of us are occasionally under a bit of pressure because as I introduced myself, I teach at the university. I provide consultancy at the Tamale Teaching Hospital, but yet, because TOLEC is a passion for me, I see TOLEC as a passion I must drive to benefit my people, because at the end of the day, TOLEC most of the time doesn't put food on my table. The university puts food on my table. But TOLEC is a passion where I want to be able to reach out to many more people. So at TOLEC, we then bring a lot of young ones to advocate about mental health. And that has been what we have been doing and [00:35:00] leading us to support these women.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And when it come to the issues of maternal mental health, I mentioned that a research interest area.a lot of our women, a research currently on my waiting publication, a little over 60% of mother are battling what we call postpartum depression. In my region, around 58% are battling postpartum anxiety. How can a traumatized woman be able to raise a very successful young man? So I keep telling people when I go to seminars, if we want a very healthy society, our women, our mothers, our aunties, whatever we want to call them, our grandmothers must be in the best of health.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And that health must be in the dual form, mental health and physical health. Unfortunately, mental health is [00:36:00] underplayed, in my country and in my region, a reason why some of us are very passionate about this conversation that we're having.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for this conversation.I'm so glad that you're doing what you do, because these women, they're as important as anybody else, and they deserve their dignity and comfort.
Sarah Jack: We've learned a little bit from some of the other advocacy work that there needs to be this focus on the youth. And I'm hearing that element in your work, the mental health support into the youth, how that can trickle up into the community as they grow. That is a positive support for the future. How do you get to the point where banishment isn't an answer?
Sarah Jack: I was thinking [00:37:00] about how the banishment really is this point at which, it's a solution, but it's also a problem.
Sarah Jack: It's starting a problem.
Peter Mintir Amadu: When you look at the banishment as we currently have it in our situation, this happens, and those women are banished from the community. They leave all their livelihood, they leave all their connection, they leave all their relationship, and they leave everything they have ever lived for to a land that they don't know anything about, but just because that land is accommodating.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And so the issues of mental health plays a role in this banishment, because at the end of the day, if you think somebody else has a challenge, have you listened to this person? Have you engaged this person? Because in most of the banishment situation, they never, nobody ever listened to this one. There's never a listening ear. [00:38:00] What they call a listening ear, where the problem is sending you to a particular group of people who have already made up their mind anyway, so they just send you there for, okay, we have sent you to this place to verify, but they already know what they want to do. If the conversation around mental health can be enhanced, what we do have is that a lot of people will look at this with some other perspective. What other way could we have looked at this without banishing this woman, without asking this woman to leave her business in that village, to move to a village she knows nobody and she has no connection?
Peter Mintir Amadu: That conversation can start. And, Maybe a reason why, when we started our organization, the idea was to see how we can engage the youth and our reason for engaging the youth was to say that catch them young and they will [00:39:00] understand mental health and will use mental health services, even in their old age. So if they start understanding mental health now, they will build what I call resilience. They will build what I call self esteem. They will build assertiveness skills. So they will be able to make conversations to fight for people within the community. Sometimes some of the women just need somebody to say that, please, I will challenge you, and the problem will drop that whole accusation, but there's nobody to challenge. And these old women virtually are left to their fate.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Two years ago, I met a woman who told me her story. works in our national capital. A very responsible woman, but her mother stays in the village in the northern part of Ghana, and the children are well to do. A community member allegedly accused the woman, [00:40:00] and within 24 hours, six children of this woman arrived in the village. The best of cars that the village has never seen, arrived in the best of dressing the village, possibly have never seen, and that whole conversation died.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So this is what it means for our women. Some of them just go through some of these things just because there's nobody to fight for them. And so if the youth of today are educated about mental health, and they're ready to assertively speak for people who are accused wrongly, I'm sure we can go somewhere. We will get a way towards finally minimizing this banishment from our communities.
Peter Mintir Amadu: And that's why our activities as an organization have taken the youth dimension, where we want the young ones to lead. So we have a basic school mental health advocate. We have secondary, senior high school mental health advocate, and we have tertiary mental [00:41:00] health advocate, where we want the youth to lead the advocacy, youth leading change in the environment, so that they themselves can learn about mental health, educate their colleagues, and provide the resilience that they need, because I keep saying that in the area of our life, I have come to realize that, in my little study in the area of psychology, I have come to develop a statement that I say that we are what we think. And this is premised from Epictetus quote of, 'it is not what happens to you, but how you react to it,' Epictetus, the great philosopher. So I've come to believe that what we think as a community. What we think as a people is what we live with, because we come to think that once I don't make progress in life, somebody's behind that, my challenge. Somebody has not studied, somebody have not invested in his youthfulness, and he think the old lady in the village is the reason [00:42:00] why he's not in the best of motorbike, he's not using the best of cars, he's not in the best of building. But that is just because of the way the person is thinking.
Peter Mintir Amadu: If we can engage our youth to begin to look at the way they think that will have a great influence in the behavior that will exhibit in their old age and all of that. So the reason why we, the youth have become a focus
Sarah Jack:
Peter Mintir Amadu: and we think that if we can do this and do this very much, I'm sure our next generation will be better in terms of mental health access and service provision.
Peter Mintir Amadu: Let me divert a little bit to the area of women. The reason why we have also diverted to women as a focus. A traumatized woman, an battered woman, and a woman that is battling one challenge or the other cannot raise the best leader of the world. How can [00:43:00] that woman raise a a child, who has been accused of witchcraft? That woman is in pain. That woman is traumatized, and she cannot be in the best frame of mind to raise an adult who become that responsible in society. So we need to support our women and that is an area where we have, we taught, because the research in that area is quite scanty. And the work we have done, we have a number of data just waiting to publish this and let the people understand that we need to support women and the youth, if we want a better society.
Josh Hutchinson: Are there ways that we and our listeners can support your efforts?
Peter Mintir Amadu: We have often called for support from the international community. And I must admit we have been operating for the past, seven, eight years. We really don't have any funding, we [00:44:00] don't have any donor, and we don't have anybody who comes to, say, at the beginning of the year, 'what are your plans? Take this and begin to implement in the area of youth mental health or adolescent mental health and in the area of maternal mental health.' No, but we just do this outta passion.
Sarah Jack: The invitation from you has been my fuel or my source of motivation. Because I keep telling people if goodwill was filling bank accounts, I'm sure I could compete with Bill Gates and his compatriots, because people tell me what you do is good, but that doesn't translate to money in my bank account. It doesn't translate to fuel in the vehicles that we use as an organization.
Peter Mintir Amadu: But can we stop? Somebody must be ready to take this somewhere. So in the area of funding, I must admit, we have been challenged. And we will more open [00:45:00] and more ready to collaborate with international organization, local organization,even individuals who are passionate about the issues of alleged witchcraft and want to support. We are more ready to collaborate with them, especially to send our psychologists to these women every quarter or even every month. I cannot fund that now.
Peter Mintir Amadu: So we can only call for support from the international community. But even before the international community come, I want to charge even my own people, the local community, our chiefs, our government functionaries, and the CSOs in Ghana, to see this as a priority, to see this as a need, because if a section of our population are suffering, we cannot claim to be complete.
Peter Mintir Amadu: For us, I will say, if there are any international organizations that want to partner with us to make mental health [00:46:00] services readily available for these women, the immediate community, the health workers within this community, I must admit, we are, we will be grateful to collaborate and to assure you that your funds that you are donating, your funds that you are pushing through TOLEC will really reach these women in ways that will change their lives, because we will build their capacity.
Peter Mintir Amadu: We will resource them, and they may not need to continue dependent on the occasional support that people can. People just come and they're coming with a handful of rice. How long will this woman take with this? Sustaining income? Income where they can depend on. So we are more open and we are ready and very willing to collaborate with international organizations to provide therapy, to provide infrastructure, to provide shelter, and to provide clothing [00:47:00] and food for these women, because these are their areas of need.
Sarah Jack: And now for Minute with Mary.
Mary-Louise Bingham: It was an honor to meet with advocate on gender-based violence in India, Neelesh Singh. Neelesh and his team help women who are wrongfully accused of practicing sorcery heal both physically and emotionally so they can find their voice and pay it forward. Education is key for the women who learn their legal rights for their unique circumstances.
Mary-Louise Bingham: To heal the hearts of these wounded survivors, Neelesh and his team offer counseling, music, and art therapy. The art therapy will start small. The survivors will expand their art until they feel comfortable to create street art on walls donated by various law enforcement agencies. In other cases, women will be encouraged to write and direct their own street plays, telling the public of their stories to create [00:48:00] awareness and education.
Mary-Louise Bingham: Stay tuned for an upcoming episode on this podcast where you will hear more details as to how Neelesh's team empower by helping the survivors gain confidence and find their inner strength so they can be heard. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a non profit, 501c3 organization, Weekly News Update. As we step into Women's History Month, starting Friday, March 1st, with International Women's Day on March 8th, embracing the theme, 'Inspire Inclusion,' I prompt you to reflect on the embodiment of the international woman. Who does she remind you of? A figure of historical significance, or perhaps someone enduring the trials of today's world?
Sarah Jack: When pondering the enduring persecution and marginalization faced by women throughout history, your thoughts may gravitate towards the women in northern and northeast Ghana [00:49:00] relegated to witch camps due to accusations of witchcraft. These camps, a stark reality for many, symbolize not just the psychological and quality of life detriment stemming from such accusations, but also connect us to a broader narrative that spans centuries and continents.
Sarah Jack: The prevalence of depression, influenced by factors like gender, marital status, and the absence of biological children among these women in witch camps, coupled with their almost universally low quality of life, underscores the critical mental health and well being issues they face.
Sarah Jack: These women living on the fringes of society are the modern day echoes of the ancestors who faced execution in historical witch trials, embodying the perennial outcasts, the feared 'witch' within their communities.
Sarah Jack: As International Women's Day urges us to inspire inclusion, let's remember that the international woman of history is also the woman in a Ghanaian witch camp today. She is the mother, sister, and daughter [00:50:00] ensnared in these circumstances. But she's also the advocate fighting for those trapped in the shadows of vulnerability. In the coming weeks, we invite you to join us in a conversation about women around the world who endure persecution and exclusion,branded as outcasts and feared as witches in their communities.
Sarah Jack: This Women's History Month, we are called upon to partake in the collective action to impact history for women everywhere. How are you contributing to this chorus of voices, both past and present, forging a future where dialogue is not just powerful, but transformative, evolving into actions that construct a true realm of justice? Together, we can shift narratives and foster a world where inclusivity reigns supreme. Honoring those who have suffered and paving the way for a future where no woman stands alone in the face of injustice.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
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Sarah Jack: Visit us at aboutwitchhunts.com/.
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Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

February 21, 2024

Witchcraft in the Granite State: Unveiling New Hampshire’s Witch Trials with Tricia Peone

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Tricia Peone, Project Director, New England’s Hidden Histories

Witchcraft in the Granite State: Unveiling New Hampshire’s Witch Trials with Tricia Peone

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Show Notes

This week on Witch Hunt, we delve into lesser-known witch trials and local lore with Dr. Tricia Peone, Project Director at the Congregational Library & Archives. Our engaging discussion highlights the stories of individuals like Eunice Cole and Jane Walford, bringing to light the history of witchcraft accusations in New Hampshire from the earliest case in 1648 to a significant incident in the 1790s. You will discover how the local community’s efforts to revitalize the reputation of Eunice immortalized her in the public consciousness of Hampton, NH. Dr. Peone provides deep local insights, revealing the complexities beneath the surface. After listening to today’s episode, you might find yourself inspired to explore Eunice Cole’s history firsthand.

Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials 101 Part 1: 1648-1656

Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project

List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

Witch Hunt

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the leading podcast on the witch trials of the past and the continued witch hunts of today. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.

Josh Hutchinson: We're descendants of women accused of witchcraft.

Sarah Jack: And we're here to tell stories of people like them.

Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we're talking to Dr. Tricia Peone about witchcraft accusations in New Hampshire.

Sarah Jack: In 1648, Jane Walford became the first New Hampshire woman to be accused of witchcraft. Learn what happened to her and the others who followed.

Josh Hutchinson: As in other witch hunts, socioeconomic and religious factors played a significant role in spurring witchcraft accusations in New Hampshire.

Sarah Jack: Spectral evidence was still in [00:01:00] use in a case from the 1790s, a full century after the Salem Witch-Hunt.

Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Peone tells us all about Eunice Cole's case and its unique historical significance.

Sarah Jack: We also discuss recent efforts to exonerate Eunice Cole.

Josh Hutchinson: And close with various commemorative efforts and public interest in Hampton.

Sarah Jack: We are honored to welcome Dr. Tricia Peone. Dr. Peone holds a PhD in history from the University of New Hampshire, specializing in the study of witchcraft and witch trials with a particular focus on New England.

Josh Hutchinson:

Josh Hutchinson: And I am a historian. I specialize in the history of magic and witchcraft in the 17th and 18th centuries. And my job is I work at the Congregational Library and Archives, which is in Boston. And I manage a project called the New England's Hidden Histories Project, which is looking at Congregational Church [00:02:00] records throughout New England and digitizing them and making them accessible by publishing them online. So I've been in that job for about a year, a little over a year, but before that I've worked as a researcher, I've taught classes on the history of witchcraft and public history, and I did a PhD at the University of New Hampshire, and I was focusing on the history of magic and witchcraft in New England.

Tricia Peone: So it is truly my favorite thing in the world to study. And I'm very lucky that right now I have a job whereI get to think about Puritans all day, which not everyone would enjoy, but it can be fun. We get a lot of Cotton Mather jokes at work,and occasionally we do get to do some programming about witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: That's excellent. And what drew you into this, the field to study witchcraft?

Tricia Peone: I have a distinct memory of being in the library at the elementary school I [00:03:00] attended and finding a book on the Salem Witch Trials, and I kept returning to that book. It was a really fun book to read, and I figured out later, I tried to figure out what, what,children's books about witchcraft were available in the 1980s to figure out what book it was that I'd been reading. And I think it was Shirley Jackson's History of the Salem Witch Trials. So I think that was the first book that caught my interest at a very young age. When I was in college, I think I was an art major for a while, and then art history, and then I switched over to history, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do exactly, but I found out that you could, in fact, study the history of witchcraft and read some of the exciting books that had come out.

Tricia Peone: There was a huge flurry of publications in the 90s because of the anniversary of the Salem Witch Trials. So there's a lot of new research coming out about the history of witchcraft, and I, my interest was really piqued by that. And I did a master's in history, and I wrote about the Salem witch [00:04:00] trials, and then went on to do a PhD in history. It's not, like, maybe not the best career choice for anyone or for a historian to go into witchcraft studies, but it is probably the most interesting thing that you can study, in my opinion. You'll never be bored. There's talking cats, you got ghosts, you got haunted houses, what more could you want?

Sarah Jack: Today, we're going to talk about witch trials in New Hampshire. What background do we need to know about colonial New Hampshire?

Tricia Peone: New Hampshire is kind of an outlier in New England, although I think other New England states, I think Vermont and Maine and Rhode Island and Connecticut actually could also make that same case, but New Hampshire's a little bit different than what we think about when we think of New England, and you had a great episode with Emerson Baker a while back talking about the Devil of Great Island on his New Hampshire cases. Some of your listeners probably have heard from him how unique New Hampshire is, and it's kind of a weird place on the seacoast in that period, but there are at least four [00:05:00] cases where women face trial or some kind of court action for witchcraft in New Hampshire in the 17th century.

Tricia Peone: What I think is especially interesting about New Hampshire, though, is, particularly in this one case I want to tell you about, which is the case of Eunice Cole in Hampton, New Hampshire. She's charged with witchcraft a few times in the 17th century, but she has this, her story has this kind of a second life in the 20th century. Because this is the first time, it's in 1938, her community, Hampton, goes through basically the first community exoneration for someone accused of witchcraft.

Tricia Peone: And not a lot of people know that story, and it is really interesting. So that, I think that is one of New Hampshire's unique qualities, is that you have a community in the 1930s during the Depression that decides to revisit their past and think about what their responsibility is as a community to people who were accused of witchcraft.

Tricia Peone: So no one was executed in New Hampshire for witchcraft, but there are some formal court cases and there are[00:06:00] at least a dozen or so other pretty interesting accusations of witchcraft that happen. The last accusation that results in the community coming together to take some action is 100 years after Salem. It's in the 1790s. So it,New Hampshire also provides us with some clear evidence that witchcraft continued to be a concern for people, long after the Salem Witch Trials, even after the American Revolution.

Josh Hutchinson: That is a long history of witchcraft accusations. When was the first witchcraft case in New Hampshire?

Tricia Peone: Probably 1648. That's the first one we know of. And that's happening at the same time as the other early cases in New England, right? You've got 1647 and 1648 in Connecticut and Massachusetts with their first cases in court action. So 1648 in Portsmouth.

Sarah Jack: And what were primary factors that led to New Hampshire accusations?

Tricia Peone: The typical ones you'd expect, disagreements between [00:07:00] neighbors, old grudges. Jane Walford, who's the first woman accused of witchcraft in 1648, her neighbors accused her for several decades of being a witch. Someone said they'd overheard her husband call her an old witch, someone said they saw her turn into a cat, and, so those are the kinds of, typical accusations you might hear, but she was pretty interesting, because she took her accusers to court for slander, and she actually won, so that is one of the weird things about New Hampshire, is that at the same time as other New England coloniers are going through their sort of first attempts to formalize court actions against witches, you In Portsmouth, a woman accused of witchcraft is able to successfully defend her reputation. So there's a case where a physician from Boston calls her a witch, and he says he has proof and the court actually finds for her. So they order this physician to pay her five pounds for the damage to her reputation.

Josh Hutchinson: Wow.

Tricia Peone: Certainly [00:08:00] unusual.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. You expect the slander cases to happen later. Owen Davies calls them the reverse witch trials. So yeah, that's interesting.

Tricia Peone: Yeah, the first, from the first case in 1648, her accusers ordered to publicly apologize to her.

Josh Hutchinson: Really that early?

Tricia Peone: Yep. But that doesn't stop her. The woman accuses her again later.

Josh Hutchinson: Doesn't learn a lesson.

Tricia Peone: Right.

Sarah Jack: Do you, so what would have a public apology been like there? Would have that happened at a church service?

Tricia Peone: I would imagine, typically, it would be at a church service, although Portsmouth is a little different in thatthere were Anglican and Congregational churches competing for a little bit for people's attention. And the court moved around, so quarterly courts moved around, so it's, I don't think it's clear where that public apology would have happened, but, yeah, probably either in a court or the meeting house.

Josh Hutchinson: And how did, [00:09:00] macro scale factors like social, economic, and religious elements, how did those factors play a role in spurring witchcraft accusations?

Tricia Peone: I think in New Hampshire, you can tell those are certainly important elements to accusations. Around 1679 and 1680, when New Hampshire is officially, becoming a royal colony and separating from Massachusetts, there's a little outbreak of witchcraft accusations that happens in Hampton, so you can possibly point to that as saying, there's some political uncertainty going on,they typically, they're these cases in New Hampshire are following similar trends in the 17th century.

Sarah Jack: In New Hampshire, what influenced the proceedings in those trials?

Tricia Peone: I think that the evidence in some of these cases shows that everyone believed in magic, that it's a pretty universal belief, and certainly that's true for 17th century New Hampshire. You get some interesting kind of [00:10:00] little glimpses of what people's magical beliefs were. Like you can tell in the case, The Devil of Great Island, Emerson Baker talks about practicing countermagic. They boil urine to try to break the curse. One of the cases in Hampton shows that this woman, Rachel Fuller, who's accused of witchcraft, it sounds like she, in 1680, she'd been trying to help a sick child, like she'd gone to visit their house. They said that she brought some herbs with her, that she was, like, rubbing her hands by the fire, she spread the herbs around, and she said, the child will be well, and then she told them they should plant sweet bay in front of their house to keep witches out, and then she's accused of witchcraft because the child dies.

Tricia Peone: So I think that it shows us that people certainly did believe in what we might call superstitions today, butyou can also see it as just part of their worldview. This is a way that people thought they could protect themselves, that you could plant some bay leaves by the door to keep witches out. That certain rituals and practices might help with illness. So I think the cases show both sides of that, [00:11:00] so they're accusing people of witchcraft when things go wrong, but if things went well, if that child had recovered, Rachel Fuller probably would not have been accused of witchcraft, if her alleged magic had worked.

Josh Hutchinson: It was just a part of daily life that magic could happen anywhere, anytime around you. And that continues to be the case for many people around the world today. So you've talked a bit about some of the notable cases. You had mentioned that Jane Walford, her accuser that she took to court in 1648, that accuser came back around again to complain about her?

Tricia Peone: Yeah, Jane Walford had, I think her reputation was tarnished in the community, she, I think she was a bit wealthier than her neighbors, but she was widowed. Some of the testimony against her is like[00:12:00] saying that they saw a cat.One woman testifies that her friend was being followed by a yellow cat, and they couldn't catch the cat. There's a lot of testimony about cats as being suspicious, and that's what some of this evidence against her is.

Tricia Peone: Her daughter was later accused of witchcraft, Hannah Jones, who was accused of witchcraft in that case with the Waltons at the Walton Tavern in Newcastle, so you do have that family connection, so I don't think Jane Walford's reputation ever was repaired, even though she was successful in court, which is interesting,even when the courts are reluctant to convict. in New Hampshire, we could maybe say was using a different standard of evidence than Massachusetts, but that still means there's still damage to the reputation and to the family'srole in the community, because her daughter was also accused of witchcraft, so even when she's wealthier, she has the power to take people to court, even taking a man to court for calling her a witch and winning, that's still not really winning in the community, right? That's not going to repair those relationships.

Sarah Jack:

Josh Hutchinson: I was wondering [00:13:00] what would the evidentiary standards have been in New Hampshire at that time.

Tricia Peone: They should have been following English law. They should have been using the same kinds of legal references and guidebooks as Massachusetts Bay would have been using. I have not seen any evidence from courts in New Hampshire of what they're referring to, other than referring to the law in England. So then hopefully what they want is, you always want the person to confess, that's usually the best evidence. If not, you want to have two people who could testify to seeing the same act of witchcraft, something that shows that they're involved in a pact with the devil, which I think is usually why they're talking about cats so much. One, because they're just suspicious of cats, but also if you can show that that cat is their animal familiar, if you can find the witch's mark on their body, which is something they do in the case of Eunice Cole, they do find a mark, then that's evidence of the pact with the [00:14:00] devil. So that's the kind of evidence they're looking for that's the best.

Josh Hutchinson: And who isn't suspicious of cats?

Tricia Peone: I love them, but who knows what they're really up to.

Josh Hutchinson: Exactly.

Tricia Peone: There's a lot of talking cats in the New Hampshire cases. You see it in Salem, too. There's a few, some of the people mentioned a cat talking to them. In one of the New Hampshire cases, a little girl testifies that this gray cat offered her fancy things if she would agree to become a witch. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Those fancy things also appeared at Salem in many of the descriptions of what the devil was offering people.

Tricia Peone: Yep. Yeah. You see cases like the devil offers to help you with your chores, to buy you a new dress, to buy, to give you fancy things. So these are humble requests I think of, to make of Satan.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We had one in Connecticut where he was sweeping the hearth.

Tricia Peone: You would think maybe a waste of his time, but I guess [00:15:00] not.

Josh Hutchinson: I know, right?

Sarah Jack: Are there any connections between New Hampshire trials and the Salem witch hunt as far as people or families?

Tricia Peone: Oh yeah, quite a few. So Susanna Martin, who was executed during the Salem Witch Trial, she lived briefly in New Hampshire. She lived in Stratham for a while. And one of the first accusations against her that comes up is, so we don't have evidence of it in New Hampshire, but it comes up that this is like, it happened in New Hampshire when she was living there. She's accused of infanticide and fornication and witchcraft. And this is when she was young. I think she was a servant in a house in New Hampshire and then ended up back inwhat's Amesbury, Massachusetts now.

Josh Hutchinson: And there were a few New Hampshire residents who were named during the Salem Witch Trials.

Tricia Peone: Yeah. And there's definitely family connections. There are people who moved from Massachusetts to New Hampshire afterwards.[00:16:00] So yeah, there's definitely quite a few New Hampshire connections.

Josh Hutchinson: What kind of spectral evidence comes up in the New Hampshire accusations?

Tricia Peone: There's actually spectral evidence in one of the later cases, the case in the 1790s that takes place in Campton, New Hampshire, which is up in the White Mountains. And it has some parallels to Salem. It's interesting because it's literally a hundred years after the Salem witch trials take place. And that's the case against a woman called Polly Wiley. And the only evidence we really have about her case is a letter. So it's just this one document. It's at the New Hampshire Historical Society. And it is written by the minister, Reverend Selden Church, and he's basically, he writes this letter, it's signed by a group of 14 other men in town.

Tricia Peone: So all we really have is this one document, I'm not entirely sure what [00:17:00] happens afterwards. So we just have this one document that shows us this one moment in time, and I haven't found any other evidence really about who she was, because there's a couple people in Campton and Thornton, a neighboring town, who might have been Polly Wiley , not 100 percent sure yet.

Tricia Peone: So all we really have, we take this document at face value. Basically it sounds like they're responding to an accusation of witchcraft that Polly Wiley makes against several other people in the community. The men who are writing the document and signing it are saying they're not really sure if she is bewitched, if she is possessed. They don't know if she has a medical illness, so they're not really sure what is happening, but what they describe is that she's got bite marks on her, she's seeing things, and from their perspective, these are the men, these are the propertied wealthy men in the town, and the minister, who's the arbiter of this dispute, and what their concern is, They say, it's not safe to be sure.

Tricia Peone: They're not sure if it's the devil or witchcraft or a medical illness, but their [00:18:00] concern is that people in town and people from other towns are starting to come to Polly Wiley to ask her to name the other witches in the neighborhood. Similar parallels to Salem, definitely. You have this, this, asking someone to name, name witches, people are coming to her and asking her, they're trying to test her, doing some of the traditional tests of witchcraft, to figure out what's going on, and so she's got these wounds and scratches all over her body, she is having these difficulties. She says she's seeing people that are invisible to everyone else in the room, but she can see them. So she's seeing these specters and people in town want her to say who they are. So that's all we know. That's all there is.

Tricia Peone: And then we have the 14 men who sign it and say, they're urging caution, basically. They're saying, let's not jump to conclusions, we're not entirely sure what's happening here. It's possible that this is witchcraft. It's possible that these are specters. And so we don't know what happened after that, but it's a weird little glimpse, a little window into what was [00:19:00] going on up in the White Mountains in the 1790s, so it's the period after the American Revolution, they're just founding this town, and there's clearly some kind of tension.

Tricia Peone: And clearly some kind of maybe unexplained illnesses, some other mysterious happenings, but you have a young woman who is essentially saying that she's seeing the specters of other witches and people want more information. But the town leaders are saying, let's try to maybe put a damper on this and take a breath and figure out what's happening. Sadly, we don't know what happens, but it is definitely a, an interesting case.

Josh Hutchinson: It's really telling that a hundred years after Salem, someone presenting the same symptoms as the afflicted of Salem they urge caution now in that new era.

Tricia Peone: And, so we can read it that way, and you're right, they're urging caution, which, but people at Salem urged caution, as well. They [00:20:00] just didn't follow it until it was too late. But we can also read it as this is a continuation of those beliefs, just because the formal trials and executions for witchcraft have stopped in New England by that point. It doesn't, it didn't necessarily stop people believing in witchcraft and believing that witches were responsible for their illness.

Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's interesting to me around that same time in Vermont, we have one secondary source reporting on a witch accusation, and we don't get that lens of the community saying, 'Hey, let's take caution,' but we do know that they, she went before a committee, that they wanted to test her. Was she a witch? They threw her in the river. So here you are, a hundred years later, this is two different states or colonies that it's coming up in the community and they're not exactly sure what to make of it still.

Tricia Peone: [00:21:00] It continues, and just because the courts aren't really interested doesn't mean people aren't interested in it, doesn't mean communities wouldn't take action in both these cases. And I don't know, in Vermont, I don't know if the church was involved or not in arbitrating that dispute, but they certainly were in Campton, in this case in the 1790s in New Hampshire. There's still this role that ministers are playing, because they are still ministers, Congregational ministers, anyway, still had to believe in witchcraft, and ghosts, part of the job.

Sarah Jack: Is there anything else about the Congregationalists really informative to witch trial history?

Tricia Peone: I think, when we think about the Puritans, a lot of the ideas we have about them are they're witch hunters, they'repuritanical, right? We still use that word today, but when we look at the history of witchcraft in New England, that there are people that were congregationalists, attending church regularly who believed in and sometimes practiced [00:22:00] magic.

Tricia Peone: And you see even ministers who are sometimes confused about exactly what's happening in their congregations. A lot of ministers, Cotton Mather, John Hale, they would write about they're parishioners using magic, using witchcraft to harm their neighbors. And they're not always positive what is the real cause when something unusual happens to you or happens in your community, someone's becomes unexpectedly ill, they're not always certain if it's the devil, if it's a medical illness, or if it's caused by witchcraft.

Tricia Peone: And so I think that uncertainty continues definitely in through the 18th century, even in the 19th century, and probably still today, right?

Josh Hutchinson: What are some of the primary sources or documents that have been crucial in your research?

Tricia Peone: Because New Hampshire was part of Massachusetts for much of the 17th century, a lot of the New Hampshire documents are in the Massachusetts State Archives.[00:23:00] So Eunice Cole, I think, is the case where we have the most documentation. They're the most records about her. Jane Walford, there's just a little bit and some of it secondhand, but Eunice Cole, I think we have the most.There's some of her indictments, the testimonies against her survive, and they're at the Mass State Archives. And then, of course, her case is,it's all over the newspapers in the 20th century, so there's a lot of really amazing illustrated newspapers and commentary about her case, where you have people in the 1930s looking back at what survived from the 17th century and reinterpreting the evidence, when they're trying to put forward this effort to exonerate her.

Sarah Jack: I was thinking about that community exoneration effort, and I believe they burned replicas of the court documents as a symbol of clearing her name, purifying what happened. How much additional lore has developed around her? Is she a figure of lore as well?

Tricia Peone: Yeah, so she definitely is. She's so [00:24:00] fascinating, because she was reviled by her community. They hated her in the 17th century. Three decades, she's being brought up on charges. She's kept in jail. They send her to jail in Boston. The town has to pay for her to be in jail. There's a lot of animosity towards this woman.

Tricia Peone: The evidence against her in her cases, which I think they start in her first witchcraft case, I , think is in 1656, but she had faced some other charges before then. She was accused ofslander. She was accused of stealing pigs. So she was known to the community to be somewhat disagreeable.

Tricia Peone: So her first formal kind of accusation of witchcraft is in 1656. Her neighbors offered a lot of testimony against her. She's brought again to court in 1673. And then the final one is in 1680. So you have these three, and evidence survives from these. So we can read the testimony and see what people were saying about her.

Tricia Peone: Her neighbors say things like, they saw her in church once with a mouse in her lap. All right. One of her, one of her neighbors says that she went to [00:25:00] visit a sick friend and Eunice Cole had been there the same day. She had just been there and then the friend comes over. And the man who is sick complains and says that he saw a gray cat near his bed and then he cried out, 'Lord, have mercy upon me. The cat hath killed me and broken my heart.' And it was implied that Eunice Cole was the cat. So she's causing illness. They did find some really great evidence against her, but the court continued to be hesitant to convict her, but they did send her to jail. So they said that, they were suspicious of her and that she should be in jail, but they were not ready to execute her. So they didn't.

Tricia Peone: But at one of her trials, she was sentenced to be whipped publicly and then sent to jail, which is, I think, interesting. And when she's whipped, they see that she has a witch's teat. So she has, they see a mark under her breast that looks like it's blue and they're not sure what it [00:26:00] is and they think that this is where her animal familiars, maybe the mouse, maybe the cats, are suckling from her in the night.

Tricia Peone: And then they go back to look at it again to examine the mark, and she's scratched it off. So she's accused of concealing some of this great evidence against her. She's accused of enchanting an oven. So there's a lot. People say that they heard voices coming out of her house when she was alone. So she's like allegedly having conversations with Satan. She was accused, a girl accused her, a young girl who's nine years old, Ann Smith, she said that she had tried to entice her, that Eunice Cole offered her plums to come and live with her, and the girl said no, and Eunice Cole pushed her and hit her with a rock. So Eunice Cole runs away, a cat appears in her place, this is when the cat offers the girl fine things if she will go and live with Eunice Cole, but she doesn't. There's tons, there's overwhelming evidence, but they found that she wasn't legally guilty, in spite of this testimony, but that there was just ground of vehement suspicion of [00:27:00] her for having had familiarity with the devil.

Tricia Peone: It's cyclical in the community. What's going on? Let's accuse Eunice Cole of witchcraft again. She's in and out of jail. She comes back to town. Her husband dies. She becomes a town charge.And when she dies, according to town legend, they found her in her shack, and they buried her body with a stake through her heart and then a horseshoe around the stake so that her spirit wouldn't be able to escape and haunt them.

Tricia Peone: However, the town folklore also says that her ghost still haunts and walks the streets of Hampton, and so people have said that they've seen her over the years, and to this day, allegedly, her ghost is unsettled and upset, and so that was part of the justification for exonerating her was to appease her ghost.

Tricia Peone: So her whole reputation goes through a rehabilitation, starting in the 19th century, because in the [00:28:00] 19th century you get more of the sort of romantic idea of Puritans and witchcraft. So she's in a John Greenleaf Whittier poem, he writes about her in a poem called "The Wreck of the Rivermouth." And in that poem she's kind of sympathetic. Like, yeah, she caused this shipwreck. But she felt bad about it, right? And it was because people were cruel to her. So in the 19th century, the stories you have about Eunice Cole are more that she wasmaybe a little rough around the edges, but that basically the community was mean to her and had wronged her.

Tricia Peone: It's such a fascinating case. So then what, by the time you get to the 20th century, the community decides, and I'm not totally sure where the motivation comes from in the community to do this rehabilitation and create this monument, but it comes up around the 300th anniversary of the town. So 1938 is the 300th anniversary of the English founding of Hampton. And so at town meeting that year, the citizens get together and they vote to exonerate her and they say they're going to create this memorial. It's not [00:29:00] totally clear like why they want to do this, but what they say, and take it with a grain of salt, is they say in a newspaper article from 1938, they say the reason for the exoneration was part of the current revolt against the Puritan tradition. So that's what some of the people involved were saying, that it's a rejection of the Puritan past, but why in 1938? That's one of the kind of unanswered questions. So they have town meeting in March of 1938. The residents vote on an article, and the article says, quote, 'We, the citizens of the town of Hampton, do hereby declare that we believe that Eunice Cole was unjustly accused of witchcraft and familiarity with the devil in the 17th century, and we do hereby restore her to her rightful place as a citizen of the town of Hampton.'

Tricia Peone: And then they resolved that they would celebrate her during the 300th anniversary that summer, that they would have these ceremonies, which, as you mentioned, it's when they decide to publicly burn the certified copies of the [00:30:00] documents from her various trials. And then they take the ashes from those documents, and they take some soil from where she had lived,some soil from the earth, and they mix them together and they put them in an urn, and then they said they were going to bury that on the town green, but it's actually in the Tuck Museum, so you can go see that and see some of these artifacts from her, from the case of Eunice Cole in Hampton.

Tricia Peone: But it sounds very ritualistic, right? Like they're doing, it sounds a little bit like sorcery to me, like burning these documents symbolically, mixing them with earth, burying them, but that's what they did. And then they declared August 25th of 1938 to be Goody Cole Day. They always call her Goody Cole like the Puritan address, Goodwife, so short for Goodwife, Goody Cole. They had a pageant, they reenacted some of her trials, okay, dramatizing the events, like someone wrote a play, and the town all comes and they listen to this reenactment of the events, there are speeches, [00:31:00] there's a big party, there's the Hampton Beach Bandstand, 3, 000 people attend the ceremony, it's covered in the national news. It got a fair amount of attention. Famous people were there, government officials, they created a commemorative coin and a doll that like, is supposed to look like Goody Cole. Again, slightly witchy, but yeah, and you can see those things also at the Tuck Museum. They have the urn, they have the doll, they have the coins. And there's pictures online if you want to see them. So this, these efforts are all being led by this group, and the group calls themselves the Society in Hampton for the Apprehension of those Falsely Accusing Goody Cole for Having Familiarity with the Devil, and they made membership cards to be in this society. Not like a catchy name, really, but that's what they went with. And so they're making the coin, they make the doll, they're rehabilitating her public image. And it's a moment in New Hampshire history where New Hampshire could have been the site of witchcraft tourism before Salem really [00:32:00] took that on. It could have been Hampton, New Hampshire, and apparently there was some witchcraft-based tourism in the 1930s and afterwards. People visitedone of the alleged sites where she had lived, and they come to see this huge event at the bandstand on the beach. Quite an amazing story. They promised to build a memorial in 1938. They actually didn't. They didn't leave anything permanent after that ceremony, but then in 1963, the town placed a boulder on the town green, and then they put the plaque there at the town's 375th anniversary, which was in 2013, so there is a marker on the town green that you can go and see, but compared to the other markers in New England, this one gets very little attention, right?

Tricia Peone: Literally hundreds of thousands of people will walk through the city of Salem and see the witchcraft memorials there, and very few people know about Eunice Cole or visit her marker.

Sarah Jack: And Eunice was not a confessor. She [00:33:00] didn't confess.

Tricia Peone: She did not confess, and she was not executed, and yet there is a marker, yeah.

Sarah Jack: And what about some of these other stories that we talked about today. Do they have markers or historical sites that are remembered today?

Tricia Peone: The only marker about witchcraft in New Hampshire is Eunice Cole's boulder on the town green in Hampton. There are other kind of, informal markers, there's Witch Creek, which runs through Portsmouth, and that appear that name appears on maps still, like USGS Maps today, and, it's most likely because of Jane Walford. That area where she lived is where the creek, runs through. So that's more informal, but yeah, the only monument to witchcraft in New Hampshire is Eunice Cole's boulder. Although, in the 1970s, there was a museum of witchcraft in New Hampshire, but that's a whole other story. It's not there anymore. It was only there for a few years. It was up at, up at Weir's Beach.[00:34:00]

Josh Hutchinson: And Goody Cole's memory has lived on, and there was an effort to exonerate her just last year.

Tricia Peone: Yeah, I didn't hear as much about the recent effort, but back before the pandemic, one of the state reps from Hampton, Renny Cushing,was, had started that effort. And I talked to him a little bit about it at the time, but then he's sadly, sadly died since then.

Tricia Peone: And I think the pandemic, too. So I hadn't, I actually haven't seen if what the state house actually decided to do in this case. So if you can, if you have an article you could send me, I'd actually love to read it. Cause I haven't seen if they, did they formally do anything? Cause it's a weird case because technically it was Massachusetts that convicted her.

Sarah Jack: It passed the House, but then in the Senate, it was voted down by party lines 14 to 10. And, yeah, but,there [00:35:00] is potential for legislation in Massachusetts that would clear her, so she's definitely not been forgotten.

Tricia Peone: I'll keep following it because it's, it's interesting to think about the fact that Hampton, before any other community, so before Massachusetts exonerated anyone or Connecticut, Hampton did it in 1938 and they did it through a town article. The town passed it. It wasn't the state, but they did it on a town level. Have you seen other towns that have taken action like that? Because I think it's mostly been on the state level, right?

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Windsor, Connecticut has and Stratford, Connecticut did just last fall.

Tricia Peone: Interesting.

Sarah Jack: With Goody Bassett there. Yeah. I think these local community exonerations are so important to building that history at that local level. I think it's really important to see towns who have these connections to these [00:36:00] stories rehabilitating the reputations.

Tricia Peone: It is fascinating to me that New Hampshire did it first, right? It's bizarrethat's what happened. And the other, it was contentious, like not everyone in the community agreed in 1938 that's what they wanted to do. One of the descendants of someone who had accused Eunice Cole of witchcraft wrote to the town and was like, you can't overturn her conviction. You can't publicly say that she wasn't a witch because that disparages my ancestor. His ancestor had accused her of being a witch because she had cursed his cattle, he said, so he objected. And the town had to go through this PR process with him to get him to come to the ceremony. So he, this ancestor of one of her accusers did attend the ceremony, and agreed to like, not make a big fuss, but there were articles in the newspaper about it. Not everyone in the community agreed that they should exonerate someone accused multiple times by many people of witchcraft 300 years later.

Sarah Jack: But [00:37:00] isn't that such a great example of how, even though we fear, how does this hurt the accusers, their descendants or if we're looking at some kind of judgment from the state that just wasn't just, if we're going to make things right for the innocent, what are we, what is that saying about the authority? Or what does that do to the reputation of others? And I think that is an example in other communities that have come together through those questions that you can look at these hard histories, and everybody can come full circle and move forward with this acknowledgment of, hey, some things are not right here, but we want to make them right. And that's such a huge impact for others today.

Tricia Peone: Yeah, I think you're totally right, and I think that also shows the importance of [00:38:00] when a community or on the state level, local or state, like, when they're going through this process, to think about who all the stakeholders are, to think about, not just the descendants of the accused but the descendants of the accusers and having them be part of the process, cause I think, I think a lot of the people who have a genetic connection to the Salem Witch Trials might be on both sides, like you said, right? Josh, like you said, like you have both accusers and accused.

Josh Hutchinson: Right. I have accusers and accused, and I have ancestors who were obviously conflicted about the witch trials. My grandfather, Joseph Hutchinson, ninth great grandfather, he was one of the first accusers who signed the first complaint against Tituba, Sarah Good, and Sarah Osborne, but then later on, he signed the petition in defense of Rebecca Nurse, so he seems to have changed his [00:39:00] mind over the course of the trials, and I think there's a lot of stories like that, and, like you said, genetically, if you're related to one of the accused, because they're all it contributing to the same gene pool, the accused and the accuser families intermarried so much in the following generations that you're likely to have ancestors on both sides.

Sarah Jack: In Connecticut, there was an anonymous descendant who wanted to see exoneration for the accused who descended from accusers. So you have descendants of accusers who feel both ways. And you mentioned stakeholders. We are all stakeholders in this. I think that's why it keeps coming up, because we're the stakeholders of the dignity of humans.

Sarah Jack: And what do we know about it today? And what can we learn [00:40:00] from the bad things that happened in these courtrooms then? Let's look at them, let's look at these stories, the humanity there and have a different chapter ahead, not the same chapters, flipping through the stories that we're seeing on the news now that are too similar.

Tricia Peone: I would like to know more about your job. What can you tell us about New England's Hidden Histories?

Tricia Peone: So New England's Hidden Histories is a project that the Congregational Library and Archives has been working on for quite a while, and it's creating a digital archive to preserve and provide access to all early Congregational church records in New England. So if you go on the Congregational Library and Archives website, you can find New England's Hidden Histories, and currently there are records from more than a hundred churches, and as well as collections of personal papers, so we've got a lot of Cotton Mather's papers,and his father, some Increase Mather papers, as well.[00:41:00]

Tricia Peone: And the purpose is some of these records are, for one, they're really community records, right? Because, in Massachusetts, for example, the Congregational Church was the established church for a very long time. And sometimes a church record book, it's not just baptisms, marriages,it's not just the kind of genealogical information that's interesting for people looking for family members and their ancestry. It's also town meeting records. It's also tax records, like these, the church and state were very intertwined in the 17th and 18th century. And so these records tell a lot of really There are some fascinating stories. There are, you can find stories about, ministers who enslaved people. You can find about churches who purchased enslaved people to pay part of the salaries of their ministers. So there are stories of slavery.

Tricia Peone: There are stories of people confessing to all sorts of things. They would give public confessions in congregational churches, these relations of faith, to talk about their experiences. And you will often have people talking [00:42:00] about, whether it's like fornication or adultery, whatever sins they were committing. And those are some of the I think most interesting, from my perspective, records that you can read is these 18th century people confessing their sins to their entire community. But it also demonstrates again, like the things we see with the Salem Witch Trials of that importance of confession. So we, we talk about that for the Salem Witch Trials, that's what really what people wanted to hear. They wanted that confession of witchcraft and that it has not just this legal meaning, but also a social and a spiritual meaning. And so you can read people's confessions of all sorts of things, occasionally witchcraft, but other things, as well. So yeah, so it's a, it is a digital archive that is seeking to put together the records from congregational churches from all six New England states.

Josh Hutchinson: And what's the most recent date that is covered in that project?

Tricia Peone: We try to go up to about 1850, so we've got records from the 1620s, through about 1850.

Josh Hutchinson: Oh, That's excellent. [00:43:00] Yeah. Because my ancestors were all in the Congregational Church right down to my grandfather, who was a member of the First Congregational Church in Danvers.

Tricia Peone:

Tricia Peone: I think we have some Danvers and Salem church records.

Tricia Peone: It's really fun, it's always fun to see. It's not always a ton of information, but you might see oh, he was at this meeting and they elected him to be a church official or a deacon orjust seeing people's records of their marriage records. It's really, it's interesting to see it, to see the original, to see the actual 17th and 18th century hand of someone recording this information is always, I think it's always fun. It's a way of connecting with the past when you actually can look at these volumes.

Josh Hutchinson: Definitely. Yeah, I've seen the seating arrangements in those records before. Yeah, it gets pretty detailed about everything that went on in that community, especially around the church.

Tricia Peone: Yeah. [00:44:00] Congregationalists and New Englanders were amazing record keepers.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, thankfully for us.

Tricia Peone: So what survives isis really interesting. It's fun to think too about what didn't survive, right? We know that there are more records of witchcraft that were destroyed, and still,still new things turn up every once in a while. You'll find new documents,so we might not even know of all the New England witchcraft cases yet.

Josh Hutchinson: It's very true. Is there anything else that you wanted to discuss today?

Tricia Peone: I told you about Eunice Cole. I think that's really the most interesting New Hampshire story, is Eunice Cole. And then, yeah, I think the Polly Wiley case, too, of this kind of 100 years after Salem. It's a similar case, but goes in a different direction. The other interesting thing about New Hampshire, I think, is that in the 1970s, there was this museum of witchcraft, again, another opportunity for Hampton to be a witchy tourist destination that just didn't happen. So that's [00:45:00] a much more modern story, so probably not as interesting, but I do think this, the case in Hampton with this,the sort of the reinterpretation and the cleansing of Eunice Cole's reputation and how she changes in public memory over time, from being the most hated woman in the community to being a tragic romantic figure to beingalmost a local legend hero status, someone who was very defiant of authority, she bit a constable, she was, disagreeable, but plucky, right?

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, she had moxie.

Tricia Peone: Exactly.

Josh Hutchinson: Spirit. Yeah. And,it did, when you were describing the 1938 ceremony, it sounded like a ritual of atonement and maybe appeasement. I was wondering, in the 1930s, that's the Great Depression era, were they literally trying to appease and atone for what they did, [00:46:00] who knows?

Tricia Peone: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I want to find some more, see if there are any more records. I've seen the newspaper accounts talking about it, and I, but I wonder if there are any other personal accounts to find still, that kind of are people talking about why they felt this need, because that's, it's an outlier.

Tricia Peone: You have, the 1990s where everyone revisits the Salem Witch Trials. You have the 1880s, I think, is when they first started putting up some of the monuments to to Rebecca Nurse and John Proctor. And that's coming from families who are doing that in the 1880s, 1890s, and then there's this gap and then it's 1938, this community gets together in New Hampshire. And I think, yeah, I think, they're trying to absolve the town of guilt through their efforts, but at the same time, they're trying to make a profit, right? They're like, they're saying like, come to Hampton, come to the beach, buy a doll, get a commemorative coin, come give us your tourism dollars. It's the depression. We, we need it. I think there's a couple of different angles

Tricia Peone: to

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's good, it's a [00:47:00] good marketing strategy, whether that was the intent or not.

Tricia Peone: I'm fascinated too that they're saying in the newspaper that they're trying to reject this Puritan past, 300 years after the settlement of the town. I think Puritans are always being reassessed.

Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.

Mary-Louise Bingham: Sarah Parker was accused of the capital crime for which her mother, Mary, hanged in 1692 at Salem, Massachusetts, British America, witchcraft. However, Sarah was not legally condemned. Still, Sarah suffered the same environment as those who stood trial. After her arrest, she lived at the Salem jail for 17 weeks where she experienced the suffering and sickness of her neighbors.

Mary-Louise Bingham: It was here that Sarah was told of her mother's death, leaving her to grieve in isolation and fear her own fate. She was eventually released from [00:48:00] jail. In 1710, Sarah's brothers added her jail fees into their accounts when they filed a petition for restitution for their mother. Only Mary's fees were reimbursed. In 1712, Sarah filed a petition on her own behalf. She was denied. Sarah's trauma in 1692 was due in large part by the actions of the government. Today, the state of Massachusetts owes Sarah Parker and the Parker family a sincere apology.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501c3 organization, Weekly News Update. The Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project is a project of End Witch Hunts. This project continues its vital mission building on previous legislative successes that acknowledge the convictions of the Salem Witch Trials. Yet, a significant number of Individuals, [00:49:00] notably five executed in Boston and others accused, still lack formal recognition from the Massachusetts General Court for the injustices they endured.

Sarah Jack: The Massachusetts Witch Trials occurred between 1638 and 1693. During this period of 55 years, At least 254 individuals were accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts. 209 of these were complained of, implicated in court, questioned, arrested, and or imprisoned. The other 45 were defamed, named socially, but not complained of legally or have been linked to witchcraft accusations by incomplete evidence. 37 people were indicted apart from Salem and 81 were indicted during the Salem witch hunt of 1692 to 1693.

Sarah Jack: To learn more day by day history on the 1692- 1693 Salem Witch Trials follow our social media channels and tune into the live Salem Witch Hunt Daily Report hosted by [00:50:00] Josh. In addition to the 24 individuals executed by Hanging and the one pressed to death in 1692, at least six others arrested for witchcraft perished while in jail, including the infant sister of Dorothy Good.

Sarah Jack: Also to date the eight convicted in Boston have not been acknowledged. No official apology by the Massachusetts General Court has ever been issued for the witch trials or to the victims. This justice has been delayed for over 300 years. To quote Dr. King, 'justice delayed is justice denied.' Our goal is to secure legislative recognition for all prosecuted under various colonial governments in Massachusetts.

Sarah Jack: Suggesting an amendment to the 1957 resolve could be a viable approach. This amendment would honor victims like Tituba and the accused child witch Dorothy Good, among others, who endured significant trauma and injustice. As highlighted today by Mary Louise Bingham's observations, Massachusetts [00:51:00] victims such as Sarah Parker sought exoneration from the Massachusetts General Court, the very institution we approach today. This historical body once presided over witchcraft prosecutions in the 17th century, and it failed to exonerate Sarah. Now we stand as her representatives, appealing to the current Massachusetts General Court, today ruled by the House and the Senate. To rectify these past wrongs, we invite you to join the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project by signing our petition, volunteering, or making a donation. Your involvement, whether by sharing our content, discussing these issues in your networks, or urging leaders to act, is invaluable. Together, we can nurture values of compassion, understanding, and justice in our world. Support our mission by becoming a financial donor. Visit aboutwitchhunts.com/ to donate any amount you're comfortable with. Your generosity is the backbone of the podcast content you value. Let's commit to making a difference together.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Jack: You're welcome, [00:52:00] Josh.

Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: Please join us next week.

Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get podcasts.

Sarah Jack: Visit us at aboutwitchhunts.com/.

Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell all your friends.

Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

February 14, 2024

The Astrologer, the Witch, and the Poltergeist: Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 Part 3

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Show Notes

What happens when an astrologer, a witch, and a poltergeist walk into a barn in colonial Massachusetts? In this third installment of Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 on Witch Hunt, we delve into the intricate narratives of various Massachusetts witch trials that span from 1657 to 1687. Several significant cases are broken down such as those involving Elizabeth Morse, Mary Webster, and John Godfrey.These cases illustrate the trials of the period and their lasting impact. The hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack also touch on their ancestral connections to these trials and discuss their advocacy work to end present-day witch hunts through their organization.

Entertaining Satan: Witchcraft and the Culture of Early New England by John Putnam Demos

The Devil in the Shape of a Woman: Witchcraft in Colonial New England by Carol F Karlsen

Witch-Hunting in Seventeenth-Century New England: A Documentary History 1638-1693 by David D. Hall

The Devil’s Dominion: Magic and Religion in Early New England by Richard Godbeer

End Witch Hunts

Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Witch Hunt

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that investigates the mysteries of the witch trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. We are both descendants of persons accused of witchcraft in New England.

Josh Hutchinson: Heck, we're both descendants of people in this episode.

Sarah Jack: And we, in Mary Louise Bingham, are all cousins through our common ancestor, Mary Esty, who was executed for witchcraft in Salem in 1692.

Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we are discussing Massachusetts witch trials before the Salem witch hunt. These cases originated in towns spread across the Massachusetts and Plymouth colonies, with witch trials held in places like Boston, Plymouth, [00:01:00] and York.

Sarah Jack: These cases are fascinating, so let's get right to it.

Josh Hutchinson: Do you want to kick things off, Sarah?

Sarah Jack: Sure, we're primarily covering witchcraft accusations made between 1657 and 1683.

Josh Hutchinson: But I want to point out that our first case actually overlaps with the timeline of the trials of Hugh and Mary Parsons of Springfield, which we covered in the previous edition of Massachusetts Witch Trials 101. But continues through the 1660s.

Sarah Jack: Jane James of Marblehead sued accusers for slander in 1650 and again in 1651 and 1667 for being called a witch. On one occasion, she was accused by Peter Pitford of cursing his garden. Another accuser claimed she had appeared at sea in the shape of a cat. Fortunately for Jane, she was never tried for witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: The next case involves my possible ancestor, William Browne of Gloucester, who in [00:02:00] 1657 was accused of bewitching Margaret Prince, whose child had been stillborn. Browne was not convicted of witchcraft. Instead, he was convicted of 'diverse miscarriages' and was ordered to spend one week in jail, pay a 20 mark fine, and pay Thomas Prince, husband of Margaret, unspecified costs.

Sarah Jack: Next, we have the long and allegedly magical career of John Godfrey of Essex County. John was in court on witchcraft related matters at least five times.

Josh Hutchinson: John came to New England as a teen in the 1630s and frequently moved around Essex County.

Sarah Jack: In March 1659, 11 people accused Godfrey of witchcraft. James Davis Sr., Jane and John Haseltine, Abraham Whitaker, Ephraim Davis, Benjamin Swett, Isabel Holdred, Job Tyler, Charles Brown, The Widow Ayers, and Goodman Proctor.

Josh Hutchinson: Thomas Hayne [00:03:00] testified about a spectral horse that scared Isabel Holdred. Nathan Gould testified about a spectral snake that scared Isabel Isabel Holdred herself testified about these shape shifting animals.

Sarah Jack: Goodwife and Charles Brown testified about John Godfrey talking about witches, saying they should be treated kindly, or there could be consequences. Charles also reported he once saw a teat under John Godfrey's tongue.

Josh Hutchinson: William Osgood testified that he once, back in 1640, accused Godfrey of making a deal with the devil, and that Godfrey admitted it.

Sarah Jack: On June 28, 1659, Godfrey won two pounds and twenty nine shillings in damages in a slander suit against William and Samuel Symonds.

Josh Hutchinson: Who happened to both be my ancestors. In a document dated March 25th, 1662, Thomas Chandler said that John Care had called [00:04:00] Godfrey a witching rogue.

Sarah Jack: In a document dated March 15, 1663, Essex County Court ordered Jonathan Singletary to appear at the next court, which would be held in Ipswich, to answer charges that he slandered Godfrey by calling him a witch, saying, 'is this witch on this side of Boston gallows yet?'

Josh Hutchinson: John Remington and Edward Youmans said that Jonathan Singletary had told them he'd been visited by spectral Godfrey while in jail. Singletary was ordered to make a public apology to Godfrey or pay 10 shillings. Jonathan Singletary testified that Godfrey indeed visited him in jail and Singletary tried to hit Godfrey with a stone, but Godfrey vanished.

Josh Hutchinson: On June 30th, 1663, the court found for the defendant in the Godfrey versus Singletary suit. Godfrey vowed to appeal.

Sarah Jack: On March 29th, 1664, the [00:05:00] court found for Godfrey and ordered Singletary to acknowledge wrongdoing or pay 10 shillings plus 2 pounds in court costs. In 1666, Job Tyler and John Remington complained about Godfrey.

Josh Hutchinson: On February 22nd, 1666, the court summonsed witnesses to testify about Godfrey's witchcraft. Matthias Button, Sarah Button, Edward Youmans, Goodwife Youmans, Abraham Whitaker, Elizabeth Whitaker, Robert Swan, Elizabeth Swan, Abigail Remington, John Remington Jr., Joseph Johnson, Goodwife Holdridge, Ephraim Davis, William Symonds, Samuel Symonds, my ancestors, Mary Neasse, Francis Dane, my ancestor, Nathan Parker.

Sarah Jack: March 5th, 1666, Francis Dane wrote that he was unable to attend court due to infirmity and rough weather.

Josh Hutchinson: Job, Mary Sr., Moses, and Mary Jr. Tyler [00:06:00] testified that one time when Godfrey came over, a bird appeared with him and then disappeared. Job asked Godfrey about the bird, and Godfrey said, 'it came to suck your wife,' meaning that Mary Tyler Sr. was a witch.

Sarah Jack: Nathan Parker claimed that John Godfrey had said to Job Tyler that he could afford to blow on Tyler and not leave him worth a groat, a coin of little value.

Josh Hutchinson: Joseph Johnson said that Godfrey said, 'if John Remington's son was a man as he was a boy, it had been worser for him.'

Sarah Jack: John Remington, Jr. said Godfrey said to John Remington, Sr. 'if he drive the cattle up the woods to winter, then my father should say and have cause to repent that he did drive them up.' That December, the young Remington was riding his horse when a mysterious crow appeared and harassed them. The horse fell. The bird pecked the dog. Remington got home but was laid up a while with an injured leg. [00:07:00] Then Godfrey came over and argued with the boy and his mother.

Josh Hutchinson: Abigail Remington repeated her son's testimony about what Godfrey said when he came over after the fall, saying Godfrey had bragged about unhorsing a boy the other day.

Sarah Jack: Matthias Button corroborated the Remington's testimony, as he had been there at the Remington house when Godfrey said those things he said.

Josh Hutchinson: Godfrey was found suspicious but not legally guilty on March 6, 1666.

Sarah Jack: John Godfrey passed away no later than 1675.

MarkerMarker

Josh Hutchinson: Elizabeth Bailey of York, now in Maine, made the mistake of letting a rando minister named John Thorp board in her house. Not only did he drink too much alcohol, he also used a ton of profanity, and Bailey wasn't having it. In fact, things got so bad that she ripped her boarder a new one, prompting him to move out. As far as Elizabeth was concerned, that settled that.[00:08:00]

Sarah Jack: Unfortunately, Thorp was a bitter man who couldn't let things go. In an apparent act of retaliation, he accused Bailey of witchcraft ,resulting in her trial by the county court. She must have been ecstatic when the verdict of not guilty was read.

Josh Hutchinson: At the same court that tried Elizabeth Bailey, the minister, John Thorp, was tried for abusive speech to a social superior, excessive drinking, scandalizing two ministers by saying they preached unsound doctrine, and for actually being the one preaching the unsound doctrine himself. He was convicted of all charges and ordered to pay fees.

Josh Hutchinson: In June 1659, Winifred Holman of Cambridge and her daughter Mary were accused of witchcraft by Rebecca Gibson Stearns, who had an affliction not unlike those suffered 33 years later in Salem. The Holmans were arrested. The Holmans were both indicted. Mary probably was tried and acquitted. Winifred may not have been tried [00:09:00] at all. And the Holmans sued John Gibson and Rebecca Stearns for defamation and slander in March, 1660.

Sarah Jack: Gibson had to pay a fine and apologize. Rebecca Stearns was let off the hook, because she was in an irrational state of mind when she made her accusations.

Sarah Jack: Which is interesting because if an accused person was in an irrational state of mind, the accusations had weight.

Josh Hutchinson: Yes, that's a good point, Sarah. Next up we have a rare case from Plymouth Colony. In 1661, William Holmes of Marshfield sued his neighbor, Dinah Silvester, for defaming his wife by publicly calling her a witch. In court, Silvester claimed she had seen Goodwife Holmes in the shape of a bear. The court did not find sufficient evidence that Holmes had contracted with Satan, so they sided with the plaintiff and ruled Silvester guilty of defamation. [00:10:00] She was sentenced to sign an admission of guilt.

Sarah Jack: In 1665, Goodwife Gleason of Cambridge was presented on witchcraft charges. Not much else is known about this case.

Josh Hutchinson: Edith Crawford, a resident of Salem, found herself embroiled in controversy when she was accused of employing witchcraft to burn a house from which she had been recently evicted due to a court decision. In a bold move to confront these allegations, Crawford took legal action in 1667, suing the individual who had leveled the accusations against her, the new homeowner of the property in question.

Sarah Jack: Susannah North Martin is a well-known victim of the Salem Witch Trials. A stretch of highway going through Amesbury commemorates her. She is less known for her 1669 witchcraft trial, which marked the beginning of a long career of notoriety as a witch.

Josh Hutchinson: Born in 1625 to [00:11:00] Richard North, Susannah lost her mother when she was a young girl. She migrated to New England with her father, stepmother, and two sisters in about 1639, when Richard North was one of the initial proprietors of Salisbury, Massachusetts. In 1646, Susannah married recently widowed George Martin, and the couple had nine children.

Sarah Jack: In April 1669, her husband, George Martin, posted a hundred pounds bond to keep Susannah out of jail while she awaited trial for witchcraft. The same day, George Martin filed a defamation suit against William Sargent for slandering Susannah.

Josh Hutchinson: At her first witchcraft trial, Susannah was accused of having her first son out of wedlock and attempting to kill him, and of having another son who wasn't human, but actually an imp. The court did convict William Sargent of slander for accusing Susannah of infanticide and fornication. However, the jury did not convict him for slandering [00:12:00] Susannah as a witch, and he was fined a mere eighth of a penny.

Sarah Jack: Records of Susannah's first trial do not survive, but she's presumably acquitted, as she was soon at liberty again.

Josh Hutchinson: Also in 1669, Robert Williams of Hadley was acquitted of witchcraft but convicted instead of lying.

Sarah Jack: Another witchcraft accusation in 1669 was when Goodmen Cross and Brabrook said that Thomas Wells said he could set spells and raise the devil. He offered himself to be an artist. No formal charges filed. Wells denied the accusation.

Josh Hutchinson: In 1671, an unknown woman of Groton was accused of witchcraft by Elizabeth Knapp, a supposedly possessed young woman serving in the household of minister Samuel Willard, who later earned fame for opposing the Salem Witch Trials. Willard did not trust the devilish voice coming from young Elizabeth, so he kept [00:13:00] secret the name of the woman Elizabeth accused of bewitching her.

Sarah Jack: Then in 1673, Anna Edmonds of Lynn was known as a doctor woman and was presented on charges of witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: Next we have the sole Plymouth Colony witchcraft trial, that of Mary Ingham of Scituate. Eagle-eared listeners may remember this case from our February 9th, 2023 episode titled 'Between God and Satan with Beth Caruso and Katherine Hermes.' Unfortunately, not much is available on this case.

Sarah Jack: We've previously covered the case of Alice Young, New England's first witch trial victim hanged in 1647. 30 years later, her daughter, Alice Jr., was accused of witchcraft in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1677,Her son sued the accuser for slander.

Josh Hutchinson: In an intriguing case in 1679 and 1680, my 10th great grandaunt, Elizabeth Morse of [00:14:00] Newbury, found herself accused of witchcraft, following a series of poltergeist like events in her home. The trouble began sometime after William and Elizabeth Morse took in their grandson, John Stiles. Much of this story will be familiar if you've listened to our episode on the Devil of Great Island.

Sarah Jack: First, William Morse said sticks and stones were thrown at his house. The Morses went outside to look and saw nobody, yet stones were still hurled at them, and they retreated inside and locked the door. Later that night, a hog appeared in the house, despite the door being locked.

Josh Hutchinson: The next day, some things hanging in the chimney crashed down into the fire, and an awl disappeared only to come down the chimney. William put the awl away in a cupboard and closed the door, but the awl kept coming down the chimney again and again, three or four times. Then the same thing happened with the basket.

Sarah Jack: Things just continued to disappear and then come [00:15:00] down the chimney.

Josh Hutchinson: Another hog appeared in the locked house.

Sarah Jack: More sticks and stones.

Josh Hutchinson: The pots hung over the fire danced and clanged against each other and had to be taken down.

Sarah Jack: William's ropemaking tools kept disappearing.

Josh Hutchinson: And the bedclothes flew off while Elizabeth was making the bed.

Sarah Jack: Caleb Powell, a seaman, visited often, and he said he would take the boy for a time and see what happened. He took the boy for a day, and nothing happened while the boy was away.

Josh Hutchinson: William Morse gave in a statement on December 3rd, 1679.

Sarah Jack: Thomas Rogers and George Hardy corroborated some of William Morse's testimony. John Richardson said a board flew against his chair.

Josh Hutchinson: William Morse's brother, and my ancestor, Anthony Morse, said he saw the board that hit Richardson while it was still tacked to the window.

Sarah Jack: John Dole said a pin, a stick, a stone, and a firebrand fell [00:16:00] down beside him.

Josh Hutchinson: John Tucker said that while these things were falling by John Dole, John Stiles was in a corner and didn't move.

Sarah Jack: Elizabeth Titcomb said Caleb Powell said if he had another scholar with him, he could find whoever was bewitching the Morse house.

Josh Hutchinson: Stephen Greenleaf and Edward Richardson affirmed seeing the strange motion.

Sarah Jack: John Tucker said Caleb Powell said John Stiles threw a shoe.

Josh Hutchinson: John Emerson said Caleb Powell had boasted about being trained in the black art by someone named Norwood.

Sarah Jack: William Morse also testified to a number of strange events on December 8th, 1679.

Josh Hutchinson: Bread turned over and struck him.

Sarah Jack: A chair bowed to him several times.

Josh Hutchinson: Door closed itself.

Sarah Jack: An iron wedge and a spade flew out of the chamber at Elizabeth without hitting her.

Josh Hutchinson: A drum rolled over.

Sarah Jack: The cellar door flew shut.[00:17:00]

Josh Hutchinson: Barn doors unpinned themselves, and the pin fell out of the sky.

Sarah Jack: Caleb Powell told the Morses that John Stiles had done the mysterious things around the house.

Josh Hutchinson: Powell claimed skill in astrology, astronomy, and the working of spirits.

Sarah Jack: The Morses loaned John styles to Powell. And nothing happened for a time.

Josh Hutchinson: When John Stiles returned to the home, a great noise was heard in the other room, but nothing was seen there.

Josh Hutchinson: And William Morse's cap almost came off his head.

Sarah Jack: There was a hit to William's head.

Sarah Jack: His chair was pulled back as if to topple him.

Josh Hutchinson: And a cat was thrown at his wife, Elizabeth.

Sarah Jack: The cat was thrown about several times.

Josh Hutchinson: Once the poor cat was thrown on the bed, wrapped in a red waistcoat.

Sarah Jack: The lamp tipped over and all the oil spilled out.

Josh Hutchinson: Another great noise, for a great while, described as being very dreadful.[00:18:00]

Sarah Jack: And a stone moved on its own.

Josh Hutchinson: Two spoons flew off the table and the table was knocked over.

Sarah Jack: The inkhorn was hidden, and the pen was taken.

Josh Hutchinson: William Morse's spectacles were thrown from the table.

Sarah Jack: And his account book thrown into the fire.

Josh Hutchinson: Boards came off a tub and stood upright.

Sarah Jack: John Badger said he was at Morse's house when Caleb Powell said he knew astrology and astronomy and could determine whether the diabolical means were used against the Morses.

Josh Hutchinson: Mary Tucker and Mary Richardson said Caleb Powell said he spied through the Morse's window and saw the boy play tricks.

Sarah Jack: Anthony Morse, brother of William Morse.

Josh Hutchinson: And Anthony being my ancestor and William my uncle.

Sarah Jack: Witnessed a brick disappear from his hands and fly down the chimney. Also, a hammer came down the chimney, and a piece of wood and a firebrand, which happened around November 28th. This [00:19:00] testimony was dated December 8th in 1679 by John Woodridge, the commissioner.

Josh Hutchinson: William Morse complained of Caleb Powell for working with the devil to disturb the Morses.

Sarah Jack: Caleb Powell appeared before John Woodridge on December 8th, and the magistrate agreed William Morse could prosecute the case at Ipswich County Court on the last Tuesday of March.

Josh Hutchinson: Sarah Hall and Joseph Mirick testified that John Moores, boatswain of the vessel where Caleb Powell was a mate, said that if there were any wizards, he was sure that Caleb Powell was a wizard. This testimony was dated February 27th, 1680.

Sarah Jack: The court dismissed the case, but declared Powell suspicious and ordered him to pay court costs.

Josh Hutchinson: Israel Webster said John Stiles said that he, John Stiles, was going to hell and could not read on Sundays because the devil didn't let him.

Sarah Jack: Thomas Titcomb said John Stiles, quote, 'used many foul words [00:20:00] on Sabbath day, and when asked if he was going to meeting, he said he was going to hell.'

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, this is so familiar with other afflicted children's stories. When they're asked to do work, suddenly they're afflicted and can't do it, or they're, they're held back by a witch or a devil and they can't do the things they're supposed to do, but they can do, strangely enough, the things that they want to do. Elizabeth Titcomb said there was a mysterious knocking at her door while she was sleeping. It knocked three times, but nobody responded when Elizabeth asked who was there. Lydia and Peniel Titcomb agreed.

Sarah Jack: Jonathan Woodman said seven years ago, he was going home when he saw a white cat, which did play at my legs. As he had no weapon, he only kicked the cat, which cried out and disappeared. He later learned that the Morses had called for a doctor that same night to tend Elizabeth's head.

Josh Hutchinson: Benjamin Richardson testified about something weird [00:21:00] happening at Morse's house.

Sarah Jack: David Wheeler talked about a heifer that came home with a chewed up back twice and got sick and started behaving strangely.

Josh Hutchinson: Joshua Richardson said he tried to stash his sheep in Morse's cow house one time when he was out working on getting the sheep across the river, but Elizabeth Morse chewed him out and he left. When he arrived at his destination, the sheep were all sick and foaming at the mouths.

Sarah Jack: Caleb Moody testified that he lost several livestock in an unusual manner over the 20 years he lived near the Morses.

Josh Hutchinson: And William Fanning described being attacked by a great white cat without a tail. Maybe just a lynx?

Sarah Jack: John Mighill testified that a calf's skin fell off, replaced by something red like a burn before the animal's eyes bulged out of his head, a cow pooped out of its side, and other animals met ill fates.

Josh Hutchinson: Robert Earle said that he visited Elizabeth Morse and heard a strange sucking [00:22:00] sound, like a whelp feeding.

Sarah Jack: On March 6th, 1680, the court ordered Constable Joseph Pike of Newbury to apprehend Elizabeth Morse and take her to the jail in Ipswich.

Josh Hutchinson: Esther Wilson testified that when her mother, Goodwife Chandler, was sick, she complained about Elizabeth Morse being a witch and nailed a horseshoe to the door to prevent witches from getting in. Morse would not come in while the horseshoe was on. Instead, she'd kneel by the door and talk with them from outside. William Moody came to the house of Goodwife Chandler and knocked the horseshoe off the door. Then Elizabeth Morse would come in until the horseshoe was nailed back up. Later, Moody knocked it off and took it away. Once again, Morse would enter the home. Goodwife Chandler began having visions of Elizabeth Morse and then experiencing fits. This testimony was dated May 17th, 1680 and read in court on [00:23:00] May 20th.

Sarah Jack: Elizabeth Titcomb said Susanna Tappan said Elizabeth Morse seized her by the wrist at court to ask what evidence Susanna would give in. That night, Susanna felt a cold, damp hand grab her wrist. She then became Ill, feeling itchiness and pricking throughout her body, her skin dry and scaly. Since then, she has not been out of her house.

Josh Hutchinson: And Elizabeth Titcomb said she told Goodwife Morse about the evidence against her and Morse was greatly affected and fell on weeping and said she was as innocent as herself or the child newborn, or as God in heaven.

Sarah Jack: Lydia Titcomb claimed she and her sibling saw an owl turn into a cat, then a dog. This mystery animal was sometimes completely black. At other times it had a white ring around its neck. Sometimes it had long ears. At other times it had virtually no ears at all. Sometimes it had an extremely long tail. At other [00:24:00] times it had virtually no tail at all.

Sarah Jack: This sounds like a riddle. The beast accompanied them home, scaring their socks off.

Josh Hutchinson: Susan Tappan did testify and said that Morse did indeed grab her by the wrist, but not in court. It was actually after a public meeting on a Sabbath day.

Sarah Jack: Thomas Knowlton said that when he was escorting her to jail, Elizabeth Morse said that she was as clear of the accusation as God in heaven.

Josh Hutchinson: John Chase, another possible relative of mine, said the day Caleb Powell had come to hear his testimony against Elizabeth Morse, he, John Chase, was taken with the bloody flux, which lingered until he spoke against Morse in court. Also, his wife had sore breasts that she have lost them both and one of them rotted away from her.

Sarah Jack: Jane Sewall said that William Morse told her a story about his wife not [00:25:00] being called for at first when Thomas Wells wife was in labor, due to some hesitancy by Thomas sister. The woman suffered a long labor until finally Morris was sent for, at which point the baby came.

Josh Hutchinson: John March said that sometime around 1674, he was awakened by several cats and rats at play together. He flung several things at them but could not strike them. The next morning, he heard Goodwife Wells call Elizabeth Morse a witch to her face. After Elizabeth left, Goodwife Wells told John March that Elizabeth had told her about the cats and rats, and Goodwife Wells wondered how Elizabeth could know they'd seen them, since nobody who saw them had left the house yet that morning.

Sarah Jack: According to John March, Goodwife Wells told him she'd often seen small creatures like mice or rats under Elizabeth Morse's coat. Daniel Thurston and Richard Woolsworth affirmed that they had also heard Goodwife Wells say such things.[00:26:00]

Josh Hutchinson: James Brown, another Josh ancestor, testified that Elizabeth Morse said George Wheeler's vessel would not return from its voyage and that she told him in the morning of his misdemeanors the previous night. He asked her how she knew what he had done, and she said everyone knew. He replied that everyone knew she was a witch. She said, 'our savior, Christ, was belied, and so is you and I.'

Sarah Jack: David Wheeler testified that he had seen Elizabeth Morse, his next door neighbor, do many strange things. And once, he was supposed to do an errand for her and neglected to do it for several days while he was busy hunting geese. He was unsuccessful at getting a bird. Then, Elizabeth Morse told him he wouldn't get any geese until after he finally performed the task. At last, he did what he had agreed to do, and then he was immediately successful hunting geese.

Josh Hutchinson: Margaret Mirick claimed that she had once concealed a private letter, and yet Elizabeth Morse came a few [00:27:00] days later and recited everything in the letter, though she'd most likely never seen it as it was in hiding.

Sarah Jack: A calf belonging to Zachariah Davis mysteriously danced and roared after Zachariah failed to bring Elizabeth Morse some wings.

Josh Hutchinson: Gotta bring those wings, man.

Sarah Jack: Elizabeth was tried in May 1680.

Josh Hutchinson: And indicted on May 20th.

Sarah Jack: On May 22nd, Secretary Edward Rawson wrote that the court decided it was okay to admit the testimony of a single witness to a single event, if at least one other witness brought in similar testimony about another event only they witnessed.

Josh Hutchinson: Governor Simon Bradstreet pronounced the death sentence for Elizabeth on May 27th.

Sarah Jack: However, the governor and assistants reprieved her on June 1st. On June 4th, her husband, William, petitioned for better treatment for her in jail, such as liberty to walk the yard during the day and [00:28:00] to sleep in the common jail rather than the dungeon.

Josh Hutchinson: On November 3rd, the deputies protested the court's decision not to execute Elizabeth.

Sarah Jack: According to John Hale, The governor and magistrates rejected the death sentence because they determined that seeing a specter of Elizabeth was not the same as actually seeing Elizabeth perform witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: They also determined that multiple witnesses to the same event were indeed necessary to admit the testimony as evidence.

Sarah Jack: In 1681, William wrote to the General Court on May 14th and again on May 18th, contesting the testimony against his wife and pleading her innocence. And we are writing to the same general court today, asking for these accused witches to receive an apology from the state.

Josh Hutchinson: William Morse won the release of Elizabeth into his custody, and she was placed under a sort of house arrest.

Josh Hutchinson:

Josh Hutchinson: In 1679, an unknown woman from Northampton, Massachusetts was accused of witchcraft. [00:29:00] Unfortunately, no other details are available in this case.

Josh Hutchinson: Moving forward, we get to the 1680 case of Margaret Gifford of Lynn, who frequently appeared in court as attorney for her husband and was accused of witchcraft in 1680. Her so-called unwomanly behavior in acting as attorney may have drawn suspicion.

Sarah Jack: Our next witchcraft suspect in 1680 is Bridget Oliver, better known as Bridget Bishop, the first execution victim of the Salem Witch Trials in 1692. But that wasn't her first run in with the law on suspicion of witchcraft. In 1680, she was acquitted of witchcraft, a year after her husband, Thomas Oliver, died. We will have much more on Bridget in our upcoming Salem Witch Hunt 101 series.

Josh Hutchinson: In the 1987 book, The Devil in the Shape of a Woman, author Carol Karlsen suggests that the Mary Hale who was accused of bewitching mariner Michael [00:30:00] Smith to death could be the mother of Winifred Benham of Wallingford, Connecticut, who was accused of witchcraft multiple times in the 1690s.

Sarah Jack: In 2007, authors Michael J. LeClerc and D. Brenton Simons used the most reliable sources to connect Mary Hale to Brothers and also to Winifred Benham in their article, The American Genealogist publication, 'Origin of Accused Witch Mary Williams King Hale of Boston and her brothers Hugh, John, and possibly Nathaniel Williams.'

Josh Hutchinson: The article establishes Mary's life since 1654 in Boston, highlighting her family ties and property dealings, and suggests she was married twice, with her first husband's surname possibly being King or Ling, and her second husband's surname being Hale. Established her connection to the Williams family with roots in London and Surrey, England.

Josh Hutchinson: Despite the serious witchcraft accusations in 1680 and 81, [00:31:00] Mary was acquitted. Her family, particularly her brothers Hugh and John Williams, were prominent figures in Boston and Block Island.

Sarah Jack: Her husbands have not been identified. The 1674 Boston tax list records her name as Widow Hale. Only one of her children has been identified, Winifred, but she's recognized as having multiple children.

Josh Hutchinson: She faced witchcraft accusations in February and March of 1680. Michael had lodged at her home and had courted the granddaughter, Joanna.

Sarah Jack: Mary was accused of supernaturally transporting him to a witch's sabbath in Dorchester.

Sarah Jack: During the trial, a form of evidence for witchcraft was presented, centering around a test with a bottle containing Michael Smith's urine. Observers noted that when the bottle was sealed, Mary began to pace restlessly, exhibiting an agitated behavior within her dwelling. Conversely, when the bottle was opened, her restless movement ceased entirely. This correlation between Mary's actions and the state of the [00:32:00] bottle was deemed to be indicative of witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: Accuser Margaret Ellis wanted to see Mary burned, which was never done to a witch in New England. But Mary was acquitted, and then no more is heard of her.

Sarah Jack: Mary Hale is my 10th great grandmother.

Sarah Jack: An unknown woman of Kittery was accused of witchcraft in 1682. Unfortunately, no further details are available for this case.

Josh Hutchinson: Mary Webster, wife of William Webster, was examined at county court on March 27, 1683, and the case was referred to the Court of Assistants in Boston.

Sarah Jack: Mary was indicted May 22nd, 1683 and acquitted June 1st, 1683.

Josh Hutchinson: According to witness testimony, she served the devil in the form of a black cat and suckled imps from teats in her secret parts.

Sarah Jack: According to Cotton Mather, Philip Smith was a saintly man who died at the hands of Mary Webster.

Josh Hutchinson: Smith became [00:33:00] unduly anxious about his health and had ischiatic pain in the lowest three bones of his pelvis.

Sarah Jack: Smith became delirious and loudly ranted in multiple languages, or so it was thought. Suffered sore pain from sharp pins pricking him.

Josh Hutchinson: He claimed to see Mary Webster and some others afflicting him.

Sarah Jack: He smelled a strange, musky scent.

Josh Hutchinson: Some of his attendants went and harassed poor Mary Webster, and he was well while they were at it.

Sarah Jack: A container of medicine emptied without spilling.

Josh Hutchinson: People heard a strange scratching sound.

Sarah Jack: There was a mysterious fire on the bed from time to time. It would quickly vanish. Something strange seemed to move in the bed away from Smith's body.

Josh Hutchinson: The night after he died, the bed moved on its own.

Sarah Jack: Two nights after he died, mysterious sounds like furniture being moved in the room where the corpse lay were heard.

Josh Hutchinson: And strange signs of [00:34:00] life in the body after Smith had presumably died.

Sarah Jack: According to lore, Mary Webster was brutally beaten in 1684 by a mob of zealous youth.

Josh Hutchinson: According to Thomas Hutchinson, who wrote much later, the people who went to harass Webster actually 'having dragged her out of her house, they hung her up until she was near dead, let her down, rolled her sometime in the snow, and at last buried her in it and there left her.'

Sarah Jack: In 1685, Mary Webster sued for slander.

Josh Hutchinson: The James Fuller case from Springfield is particularly interesting. Fuller was accused of seeking the devil's aid, a familiar charge.

Sarah Jack: Fuller's change of response to the accusations is especially notable. He initially admitted to the claims but then retracted, stating he had belied himself. This turn of events adds significant complexity, highlighting the [00:35:00] challenges in discerning guilt or innocence in these trials.

Josh Hutchinson: Fuller's case exemplifies the judicial severity of the period. Despite his retraction and claim of lying, the court sentenced him to whipping for wicked and pernicious, willful lying. Such harsh punitive measures were common and reflect the Puritan's strict approach to law and order.

Sarah Jack: The harsh sentence underscored the need for control and punishment of behaviors deemed deviant.

Josh Hutchinson: Cases such as Fuller's were instrumental in perpetuating the fear of witchcraft. Understanding these cases is crucial for comprehending the complexities and fears of early American society.

Sarah Jack: It's also telling that he, a man, was let off of the witchcraft charge and only punished for lying. We have seen this several times with men, but never with women.

Josh Hutchinson: It came up a few times in this episode. Must be a thing.

Josh Hutchinson: The period of 1657 to 1687 saw [00:36:00] no executions for witchcraft in Massachusetts and only one known conviction, that of Elizabeth Morse, who was placed under house arrest instead of being hanged.

Sarah Jack: In the next episode of Massachusetts Witch Trials 101, we will examine the 1688 case of Goody Glover of Boston and what may have led the judges to condemn her after more than 30 years without an execution.

Josh Hutchinson: And stay tuned after that episode for the beginning of our Salem Witch-Hunt 101 series.

Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

Mary-Louise Bingham: You may recall from last week's Minute with Mary that Female Gleason was indicted on the capital crime of witchcraft at Cambridge, Middlesex County, Massachusetts, British America. This week, the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project is closing in on her identity. Project member and genealogist David Allen Lambert provided the team with marriage documentation for two women who married into the Gleason family. These two [00:37:00] women were alive and living in the area in the mid 1660s. I found evidence that a third woman married into the Gleason family, but her vital dates are unknown. Dr. Tricia Peone, another project member and researcher, provided a resource regarding the First Church of Cambridge records dating to the early 1660s. Diving into the list of members to locate the Gleason family has begun. We've also reached out to Beth Folsom of Cambridge History to help us locate Middlesex County court records for a possible court record regarding Female's indictment. Stay tuned, we are close to identifying Female Gleason's given name.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a non profit 501c3 organization, Weekly News Update. Remember, each case of sorcery accusation or witch-hunt represents real individuals, each with their own names, [00:38:00] families, dreams, and aspirations for peace. It's vital to actively oppose the targeting of vulnerable members within our communities.

Sarah Jack: Education and advocacy are key to ending witch hunts. This entails transforming perceptions regarding the equal worth of every individual, insisting on a moral code that upholds human dignity, and challenging mob behaviors through the enforcement of laws in place to protect victims. If you hold a position of influence, whether in your community, on social media, in educational settings, or within the government, it's your opportunity to advocate and to stand up for the vulnerable. Speak out, raise awareness, and help strengthen organizations fighting these harmful practices.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts firmly advocates for universal human dignity, echoing the United Nations Charter's commitment to human rights, equality, and dignity. We condemn harmful practices related to witchcraft accusations and ritual attacks [00:39:00] as grave violations against human dignity.

Sarah Jack: We urge states and individuals alike to defend and uphold human dignity, protecting everyone from torture, mistreatment, and discrimination. You can join us by amplifying the stories of victims of witch hunts past and present. Engage with advocacy groups, learn through our resources, and voice your concerns to authorities. Your involvement, whether by sharing our content, discussing these issues in your network, or urging leaders to act, is invaluable. Together, we can nurture values of compassion, understanding, and justice in our world.

Sarah Jack: Support our mission by becoming a financial donor. Visit aboutwitchhunts.com/ to donate any amount you're comfortable with. Your generosity is the backbone of the podcast content you value. Let's commit to making a difference together.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Jack: You're welcome.

Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: us next week when we learn about [00:40:00] the witch trials of several New Hampshire residents.

Josh Hutchinson: Visit aboutwitchhunts.com/ and sign up for our newsletter, Witch Hunt Wednesday.

Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

February 6, 2024

Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 Part 2: Mary and Hugh Parsons of Springfield

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Show Notes

Welcome to the second installment of Witch Hunt’s 101 series exploring the Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials. In Part 2, we delve into the intricate narratives of Hugh Parsons and Mary Lewis Parsons, whose witch trials unfolded in Boston, Massachusetts Bay Colony, years before the infamous Salem Witch-Hunt took place. This Springfield, MA duo found themselves entangled in what historian Malcolm Gaskill has identified as America’s first witch panic.

The Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project urges the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to acknowledge the innocence of its witch trial victims with an apology. The accused witches spotlighted in this episode have not received an official apology. Explore further details on our project website: massachusettswitchtrials.org. Take a moment to support our cause by signing and sharing the project petition at change.org/witchtrials

TINAAWAHP

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Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson:

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

[00:00:16] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack. In this episode, Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 Part Two, we will delve into the social intricacies of a New England colony building hopeful futures from backbreaking labor and long dreamt dreams in Springfield, a burgeoning company town shaped by William Pynchon's dream in the midst of Old England's conflict.

[00:00:36] Josh Hutchinson: Established as Agawam in 1635 and later renamed Springfield, this is where the lives of Mary Lewis and Hugh Parsons unfolded, intertwined moment by moment with those of their neighbors in this strategically planned community. Immersed in the pervasive fear of witchcraft and inherent distrust of others, this compelling narrative unfolds [00:01:00] profound historical repercussions and enduring aftermaths.

[00:01:04] Sarah Jack: It's the fascinating case of Mary and Hugh Parsons of Springfield, Massachusetts.

[00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: The pair were engulfed in what historian Malcolm Gaskill has called America's first witch panic. Malcolm expertly unveils the interplaying dimensions of this history in his creative nonfiction work The Ruin of All Witches. Explore more depths of this captivating narrative by reading the book and listening to our delightful interview with him in the episode titled 'Malcolm Gaskill on the Ruin of All Witches.' If you haven't acquired a copy yet, consider supporting our podcast by purchasing it from our bookshop at bookshop.org/shop/endwitchhunts.

[00:01:46] Sarah Jack: In the Parsons saga, fingers began pointing in more than one direction. How did this lead Springfield to the threshold of a witch panic?

[00:01:55] Josh Hutchinson: It culminated from several pressures: economic disparity, [00:02:00] social power concentrated in a few people, and polarized beliefs. Everything was either good or evil, though Satan was not God's equal adversary.

[00:02:10] Sarah Jack: Springfield was an especially competitive atmosphere. In the seventeenth century, twenty five thousand people from Great Britain Migrated to New England. Pynchon selected his Springfield founding settlers to fill community functions, and so they came together from different regions and backgrounds. This is very unlike many of the other regions. Because when you're looking at those people histories, you're often able to trace them all from one ship back to one village.

[00:02:42] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of times the entire congregations moved over from Great Britain to America.

[00:02:49] Sarah Jack: So these folks were brought together and had to forge friendships.

[00:02:55] Josh Hutchinson: When they probably could hardly understand each other. Even though [00:03:00] they're both speaking English, they were speaking very different forms of it.

[00:03:04] Josh Hutchinson: And the people of Springfield were experiencing conflict in all areas of life, including Politics, government, military, religious, economic, cultural, societal, social, interpersonal and intrapersonal conflict.

[00:03:22] Sarah Jack: All of these aspects of life are in turmoil throughout the western world, and this true story highlights an extreme and tragic outcome of this for one early American colonial household. As pressure builds, a release is needed, or the whole system goes boom.

[00:03:38] Josh Hutchinson: With the tumultuous backdrop of the mid seventeenth century Western world, the Parsons' American tragedy unfolds with multiple people accused and most of the town's households involved. Learn the far reaching impacts of the witch hunting resonating through conflicts in Old England, New England, the bustling town of Springfield, and within the [00:04:00] intimate confines of the Parsons home.

[00:04:03] Josh Hutchinson: The 1630s and 1640s were a time of great conflict in both old England and new. In the old, rapid population growth triggered scarcity of resources, and political conflict escalated into civil war fueled by religious strife. In many areas, external pressures combined with local animosities and personal feuds to generate witch hunts. Across the sea, the Winthrop fleet settled the Massachusetts Bay Colony as a new Israel with life centered around congregational worship.

[00:04:35] Sarah Jack: By settling inhabited territory, the colonists invited armed conflict. Even in their meeting houses, these wide eyed optimists were hit by the harsh reality of disagreement resulting in the expulsion of many who did not tow the official line religiously. As there was conflict within the Bay Colony, so there was conflict between Massachusetts and the other colonial interests, including conflict with [00:05:00] England's French and Dutch rivals and with other English settlers.

[00:05:04] Josh Hutchinson: Amidst all this chaos, a town was planted at the northernmost navigable point of the Connecticut River. This town, initially called Agawam, was established by William Pynchon as a hub for his fur trading and was originally affiliated with the communities to the south on the river in Connecticut.

[00:05:23] Sarah Jack: The settlement, soon renamed Springfield, was located just twenty miles upriver from Windsor, Connecticut and separated from Boston by a difficult overland route of one hundred miles.

[00:05:35] Josh Hutchinson: Springfield was founded as a company town, and all business went through Pynchon. If you wanted permission to settle in town, you saw Pynchon, who limited the number of families. If you wanted to buy goods, you went to Pynchon's store. If you needed to borrow, you went to Pynchon. And he made sure everyone in his town needed to borrow and therefore, everyone in his town was in his employ [00:06:00] and in his debt.

[00:06:02] Sarah Jack: Springfield residents had a besieged and a beleaguered feeling in part based on tensions with the Dutch and with towns down the Connecticut River, in part based on fear of Native Americans.

[00:06:15] Josh Hutchinson: As elsewhere, settlers also feared fire, disease, and famine. As we mentioned earlier, some small New England communities were transplanted essentially altogether from Old England, as entire church congregations followed their minister to the new world, while Springfield, on the other hand, was somewhat more cosmopolitan in that residence came from many different regions of Britain. Customs and dialects clashed like everything else.

[00:06:46] Sarah Jack: Malcolm Gaskill wrote in his book, The Ruin of All Witches, "fear incubated guilt, which was projected and returned his anger. But mainly, the mood that made witchcraft plausible settled in New England because by [00:07:00] the mid sixteen forties, its economic and social woes had reached old world levels."

[00:07:06] Josh Hutchinson: Springfield was planned for profit. Here, intense competition for limited resources, coupled with a dramatic economic disparity and feeling of servitude toward Pynchon, allowed envy and hostility to creep into the community,

[00:07:21] Sarah Jack: Hostility and fear combined poorly.

[00:07:25] Josh Hutchinson: Creating a combustible mixture.

[00:07:29] Sarah Jack: Among those who landed in Springfield was a woman named Mary Lewis, who was invited to work for Pynchon's daughter Anne Smith and her husband Henry. Mary was born about 1610 in the Welsh Marches, and her maiden name may have been Reese. In about 1627, she married a man in Monmouth. His name is unknown, but it may have been a David Lewis. They did not have any children. In the late sixteen thirties, this man abandoned her. Later, Mary would describe him as a [00:08:00] secret Catholic who threatened that he'd do her in if she didn't convert. Mary used means to try to find him, probably employing a cunning person.

[00:08:10] Josh Hutchinson: After her husband left, Mary became a member of William Wroth's church in Llanvaches. Wroth was considered by some to be the Apostle of Wales. Then in summer 1640, Mary went to America. She stayed in Dorchester in the Massachusetts Bay Colony for a few months working for Pynchon before being sent to Springfield to work for his daughter and son-in-law. She arrived in Springfield in spring or early summer 1641.

[00:08:42] Sarah Jack: Pynchon hired Hugh Parsons, whose origins are shrouded in mystery, to be the town's sole brickmaker. Hugh Parsons was a man of few words, but his legacy story is woven with the weight of those carefully chosen words. He's also remembered for wearing a red [00:09:00] waistcoat and smoking a clay pipe.

[00:09:03] Josh Hutchinson: Mary Lewis and Hugh Parsons each arrived in Springfield with hopes and aspirations, fully embracing the rare opportunity to start a fresh and promising new chapter in life. Their presence in Springfield marks the actualization of their opportunity, and both labored with the intent of turning their ambitions into reality. Now recognizing the possibilities harnessed from a marital union, They envision joining forces to construct a shared future and family.

[00:09:31] Josh Hutchinson: On June 2 1645, Pynchon wrote to John Winthrop Senior, governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony in Boston, about Mary Lewis's marriage and abandonment. The letter asked Winthrop to decide whether it was right or not for Mary to get married again. And Mary was sent to deliver the letter in person, possibly in company with John Winthrop, Jr., who had been visiting Springfield.

[00:09:59] Sarah Jack: I imagine she [00:10:00] was still traveling with excitement.

[00:10:01] Josh Hutchinson: I imagine that too.

[00:10:04] Sarah Jack: When Mary delivered the letter to Winthrop senior, he read it immediately, but did not reply. Instead, he said he would refer the matter to the House of Deputies.

[00:10:14] Josh Hutchinson: In mid September, Pynchon wrote Winthrop again to remind him. This time, a reply was received in early October announcing that Mary was officially a single person and therefore free to marry again.

[00:10:29] Sarah Jack: The future was bright for the Parsons family. On Monday, October 27, 1645, Hugh and Mary exchanged vows in a civil ceremony officiated by minister George Moxon, adhering to the customary practice in Massachusetts during that period. It's worth noting that in line with Puritan beliefs, Marriage was not considered a sacrament.

[00:10:50] Josh Hutchinson: The joy in the Parsons household was soon accompanied by the revelation of a pregnancy, a fact which was learned in November, just a month after the [00:11:00] nuptials.

[00:11:01] Sarah Jack: The first fruits of their union arrived on August 7, 1646 with the birth of her daughter, Hannah Parsons.

[00:11:09] Josh Hutchinson: By the 1647 tax assessment, Hugh Parsons owned thirty seven and a half acres of land. This land was testament to his growing stake in the community. Not only a landowner, he also took on the responsibility of Springfield's fence inspector, enriching his active role in civic duties and immersing himself directly in the high stakes realm of his neighbor's boundary, it matters.

[00:11:33] Sarah Jack: Cracks were already showing in the marriage.

[00:11:36] Josh Hutchinson: The recently laid foundation of their future was curing with visible fissures.

[00:11:41] Sarah Jack: And they considered marital strife an indicator of possible witchcraft.

[00:11:46] Josh Hutchinson: As Springfield grappled with the onslaught of smallpox and influenza epidemics in 1647, unrest and frustration descended upon the marriage of Hugh and Mary. Mary's hold on reality seemed to [00:12:00] falter, echoing the fatigue enveloping her spiritually, physically, and mentally. This wariness was exemplified by the relentless toil and anxieties embedded in the unyielding, laborious routine of colonial life, a ceaseless grind that rolled seamlessly from one sunrise to the next, offering little respite or appreciation. The spiritual toil of a Puritan woman would have equally drained her, necessitating unwavering self examination and judgment. In this instance, as in many others, these demands morphed into a disorienting self loathing for Mary. This tripartite downward spiral elicited resentment from her husband, Hugh.

[00:12:42] Sarah Jack: On May 26, 1647, just twenty miles down the river from Springfield, Alice Young of Windsor was convicted as a witch and hanged in Hartford. One night, Mary Lewis witnessed an enigmatic light. with these events, Mary Lewis experienced a profound shift in her demeanor, [00:13:00] succumbing to feelings of depression, sadness, listlessness, and a pervasive sense of being mopish.

[00:13:09] Josh Hutchinson: Night after night, yearning for a haven of solace, Hugh found himself greeted by a home wearied not from the day's toils, but saturated with the pervasive misery that Mary had imbued into its very atmosphere.

[00:13:23] Sarah Jack: By 1647, a marital bitterness encroached like ivy. It entwined itself around the fledgling Parsons partnership, steadily increasing its hold and stifling any harmony that could have fostered a healthy and strong alliance. The escalating scope of their discord transformed into an ominous darkness casting an oppressive gloom over their union, its effects seeping beyond the confines of their home into the public eye.

[00:13:51] Josh Hutchinson: In 1648, a tableau of pressures, disappointments and concerns continue to unfold.

[00:13:58] Josh Hutchinson: In April, when Hugh [00:14:00] attempted to secure a plowing job for Mary's former employer, Henry Smith, his efforts were met with rejection.

[00:14:07] Sarah Jack: That summer, England grappled with the second civil war, a royalist uprising in Kent, and the persecution of alleged witches by angry mobs.

[00:14:16] Josh Hutchinson: The arrival of a second Parsons child, Samuel, on June 8, 1648 held the potential to infuse new life or hope into their struggling marriage.

[00:14:27] Sarah Jack: Hugh continued to seek solutions that could help his household and future get back on course. He took on boarders, Sarah and Anthony Dorchester and their three children, but Sarah was dying from consumption.

[00:14:39] Josh Hutchinson: The same year, a new Massachusetts legal code was enacted. In the section referring to witchcraft, they cited Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 18:11 and Exodus 22:18, 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.'

[00:14:57] Sarah Jack: In the midst of this, the woman governor [00:15:00] Winthrop referred to as a healer, Margaret Jones, was hanged for witchcraft in Boston on June 14, 1648. Thomas Jones, her husband, was also accused in jail. William Pynchon was a magistrate on her trial.

[00:15:14] Josh Hutchinson: The same month, two infant daughters of Anne and Henry Smith, Margaret and Sarah, fell sick. Margaret died on June 24, and her sister Sarah passed a few days later.

[00:15:28] Sarah Jack: As ministers increasingly delved into warnings about the devil and heresy, Mary found herself increasingly preoccupied with the topics of the devil and witches, and her discourse on these matters became her obsession. She talked about them more and more. Her suspicions turned toward the widow Mercy Marshfield, whom she believed to be a witch. While Mercy now resided in Springfield, she had previously faced suspicion twenty miles away in Windsor, a town where ministers had stoked fear by emphasizing the closeness [00:16:00] of Satan and witchcraft. Notably, Alice Young, who had been hanged just the year before, had also lived in Windsor.

[00:16:08] Josh Hutchinson: The year sixteen forty eight concluded with yet another nearby witch execution. In December of that year, Mary Johnson of Weathersfield in the Connecticut Colony was found guilty of witchcraft and subsequently met the fate called for in the law.

[00:16:24] Sarah Jack: On February 6, 1649, Hugh had a disagreement with Goodwife Blanche Bedortha. He swore the following oath to her in front of her husband. 'Gammer, you needed not have said anything. I spake not to you, but I shall remember you when you little think on it.'

[00:16:45] Josh Hutchinson: Blanche awaited the fulfillment of the oath. One night, she noticed an unusual light on her waistcoat after hanging it up for the night. Then in early March, as her confinement period began in preparation for giving birth, Blanche experienced pain [00:17:00] emanating from her chest, extending to her shoulder and neck. During this challenging time, Mercy Marshfield remained by her side for three days.

[00:17:09] Sarah Jack: This trajectory of hardship and frustrations continued into 1649, paralleled by Mary's intense preoccupation of Satan and witches tormenting Springfield. Another Springfield neighbor, Griffith Jones, found himself in need of a knife, but none were in sight. After completing his task, he discovered three good knives exactly where he had previously searched. At that moment, Hugh Parsons was conveniently present. The two shared a smoke before heading off to then the two shared a smoke before heading off to the church meeting together.

[00:17:44] Sarah Jack: New New Year's ushers in great change. King Charles the first is beheaded on January first sixteen forty nine.

[00:17:56] Josh Hutchinson: Following the beheading of the king, governor John Winthrop senior [00:18:00] died just a few months later in March. In April, Mary Lewis Parsons began telling people she suspected Mercy Marshfield of being a witch. Mary told John Matthews she believed his daughter and heifer were bewitched to death by Mercy. She reminded him that it was known in Windsor that Marshfield was a witch, and she didn't doubt that Satan had followed her to Springfield.

[00:18:22] Josh Hutchinson: During that spring, William Branch had a peculiar encounter. One night, he witnessed the spectral boy with a face as red as fire. While it's possible that William was projecting his own anger stemming from Hugh's curse on his wife, that wasn't the interpretation he attributed to the strange sighting.

[00:18:41] Sarah Jack: In May of 1649, John and Pentecost Matthews informed Mercy Marshfield that Mary Lewis Parsons had said she bewitched their infant and heifer. Marshfield complained to William Pynchon who set a slander trial for the end of that month.

[00:18:58] Josh Hutchinson: Hugh began sleeping [00:19:00] in the long meadow at night.

[00:19:02] Sarah Jack: Resources were limited and debts were plenty. One morning, probably leaving the Longmeadow, Hugh went to Alexander Edwards' house and asked Sarah Edwards for milk to settle a debt she owed. When she refused, he left irate. The next time she milked the cow, it gave a third the usual amount, and this time it was the yellow of saffron and tinged with blood. Future efforts yielded milk of other unusual colors. Alexander Edwards informed Pynchon they believed Hugh had bewitched the cow. Pynchon thought it might be a natural illness.

[00:19:38] Sarah Jack: Now Mary Lewis Parson tells John Matthews that her husband, Hugh, is a witch.

[00:19:43] Josh Hutchinson: On May 29, 1649, Mary was tried for slandering Mercy Marshfield and was found guilty. The sentence was her choice, either pay a three pound fine to Marshfield or else be whipped twenty times. Mary chose to pay the fine.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Sarah Jack: Hugh expressed dissatisfaction regarding the fine.

[00:20:04] Josh Hutchinson: In late summer of 1649, William Branch was afflicted as he passed the Parsons House, taken with a strange stiffness, 'as if two stakes had been bound to my thighs, this feeling continued for two days along with the burning in the souls of his feet.' In September, there was a smallpox epidemic in New England.

[00:20:24] Sarah Jack: Mary persisted in her vigilant watch for signs of the devil. On a particular day, her attention was captured by a mysterious dog, a creature she suspected Hugh might have sent. Given his previous claim to understanding her private conversations, Mary speculated that he could be supernaturally spying on her. Furthermore, she noted that now whenever Hugh returned home late, a loud rumbling preceded his arrival. Mary discerned the preternatural nature of this occurrence.

[00:20:56] Josh Hutchinson: Baby Samuel Parsons fell ill, and his secret [00:21:00] parts appeared to shrivel, an observation made by George Colton, a condition that's explainable.

[00:21:06] Sarah Jack: Samuel had trouble breathing one night. Hugh, in tears, ran out and got help from Sarah Cooley and Blanche Bedortha. They saw the diseased secret parts of Samuel and recognized it as an area witches would attack because they hated fertility.

[00:21:23] Josh Hutchinson: The Parsons household was fraught with tension. The Dorchester family with several young children boarded there, and the wife was ailing. Amidst this, Mary accused the head of the household of witchcraft, adding to the already charged atmosphere, especially considering her own young children and the ailing baby Samuel Parsons. The climax occurred on the last Sunday in September, when Anthony Dorchester experienced an unsettling incident, his prized root of a cow's tongue vanished from a boiling pot without a trace. Anthony squarely placed the blame on [00:22:00] Hugh's alleged witchcraft as he insisted Hugh was not witnessed near the pot during the disappearance, but certainly was the culprit, cementing all suspicion.

[00:22:11] Sarah Jack: There just didn't really seem to be other culprits to pin some of this stuff on, so it must be the troublemaker.

[00:22:19] Josh Hutchinson: Blame Hugh.

[00:22:19] Josh Hutchinson: you.

[00:22:20] Sarah Jack: Blame Hugh. That night, Hugh didn't come home. Samuel died.

[00:22:26] Sarah Jack: Jonathan Burt found Hugh in the Longmeadow in the morning and told him. Hugh did not respond. He just stomped off to George and Deborah Colton's house where he said to them, 'I hear my child is dead, but I will cut a pipe of tobacco first before I go home.' They had not invited him over. Hugh went home, saw Mary with Blanche Bedortha, Anthony Dorchester, and Samuel's body. Hugh said nothing and soon returned to work in his fields. Samuel was buried later that day after Hugh had invited the neighbors to the simple funeral.

[00:22:59] Josh Hutchinson: [00:23:00] More deaths. On Thursday, October fourth, Sarah Stebbins died. Then on November eighth, sir Dorchester passed away.

[00:23:08] Sarah Jack: In the winter of 1649 to 1650, Hugh threatened Mercy Marshfield with an oath, not unlike the one he had for Goodwife Bedortha. When he went to pay part of the debt for his wife, Mary's witchcraft accusation slander conviction against Mercy. He asked Mercy to relieve a third of his burden. She refused. He said, 'it shall be, but as wildfire in your house and as a moth in your clothes.'

[00:23:35] Josh Hutchinson: Residents of Springfield became increasingly reluctant to engage with Hugh Parsons, leading to tangible consequences. John Matthews promptly canceled a contract with Hugh for chimneys. As the community perceived Hughes threats as more than mere words, his sense of being slighted by them deepened.

[00:23:54] Sarah Jack: In spring of 1650, Sarah Miller, the pregnant seventeen year old daughter of Mercy Marshfield, [00:24:00] began suffering fits. She blamed Hugh Parsons for rewitching her.

[00:24:05] Josh Hutchinson: Simon Beamon refused to help Hugh Parsons carry flour home from the gristmill. Beamon then fell off his horse, and his own sack of flour fell upon him. He rode again, and again he fell. Then he tried a third time, falling again. Hugh was definitely bewitching him.

[00:24:25] Sarah Jack: John Lombard borrowed a trowel from Hugh Parsons to replace one he'd mislaid and thought had been stolen by Native Americans who'd visited on business the previous day. When Lombard spotted the men again, he called for them, but they seemed not to hear. Hugh asked Lombard, why did he call for them? They've stole my trowel, Lombard said. Hugh replied, here it is, and pointed to a trowel on the sill where Lombard had thought he'd laid the one the day before. Hugh returned his bewitching pattern of hiding and appearing tools. Previously, it was knives, And now he had done it with a trowel.[00:25:00]

[00:25:01] Josh Hutchinson: A third baby was born to Mary and Hugh Parsons October 26, 1650, when Joshua entered the world.

[00:25:09] Sarah Jack: Later that winter, Hugh allegedly kidnapped and assaulted Samuel Terry, whom he believed had assaulted his calf.

[00:25:19] Josh Hutchinson: In winter sixteen fifty to sixteen fifty one, more alleged witchcraft attacks occurred in the colonies, and more witchcraft trials brought execution.

[00:25:30] Sarah Jack: Jane James of Marblehead was slandered for witchcraft a second time.

[00:25:36] Josh Hutchinson: Alice Lake of Dorchester was executed for witchcraft.

[00:25:41] Sarah Jack: Tragically, three year old Sarah Matthews, the daughter of John and Pentecost, passed away. Mary Lewis Parsons had conveyed to them a few years ago that she believed Mercy Marshfield had bewitched their infant to death. Now the heart wrenching reality repeats itself as another young child is taken by death.

[00:25:59] Josh Hutchinson: Baby [00:26:00] Joshua Parsons was now sick at three months of age.

[00:26:03] Sarah Jack: In February of 1651, Hugh Parsons went shopping. Simon Beamon claimed to be too busy to help. Hugh said Simon would have been better off to have helped him. At home, Hugh encountered Jonathan Taylor. Hugh told him and Mary what had happened and said, He shall get nothing by it. I will be even with him. I'll remember him. Later that day, Simon was hauling timber when his horses bolted, and he was thrown from the cart.

[00:26:32] Josh Hutchinson: In early sixteen fifty one, news reached the colonies that Bermuda had a witch hunt.

[00:26:37] Sarah Jack: In early sixteen fifty one, Joan and John Carrington of Wethersfield, Connecticut faced execution for witchcraft. It's possible that Hugh Parsons knew John Carrington. When Mary mentioned to Hugh, 'I hope that God will find out all Such wicked persons and purge New England of all witches ere it be long,' Hugh responded with [00:27:00] a scornful gaze. In a fit of anger, he grabbed a block of wood, momentarily raising it as if to throw it at Mary before relenting and dropping it into the fire.

[00:27:09] Josh Hutchinson: Hugh, besieged by mounting frustrations, began issuing threats with each new challenge.

[00:27:15] Josh Hutchinson: This situation worsened when he failed to produce bricks in time to fulfill a deal with minister George Moxon, adding another layer to his already troubled circumstances. He said, 'if Mr. Moxon do force need to make bricks according to the bargain, I will be even with him. If he do, I will be even with him.' Within a few days, Moxon's daughters, Martha and Rebecca, became ill. Moxon believed they were bewitched, while some neighbors thought them possessed. The girls recovered from their afflictions.

[00:27:48] Sarah Jack: Sunday, February 16, 1651, Mary Parsons was at the Ashley Alehouse between sermons when she started spouting off, blaming Hugh for deaths of the Smiths girls.

[00:27:59] Sarah Jack: [00:28:00] She told Frances Pepper that Hugh had bewitched his cow. She claimed Hugh had also bewitched her and announced that 'he cannot abide that anything should be spoken against witches'. Mary then slipped into some sort of trance. She believed during this trance that she agreed to serve Satan and was magically carried off to a witch meeting at John Stemmons' home lot. It was the dark of night, But fires allowed her to see Hugh Parsons, Sarah Merrick, and Beth Sewell.

[00:28:29] Sarah Jack: Mary came to when the meeting house bell tolled. At the second meeting of the day, while minister Moxon held service, other women, including Mary Bliss Parsons, not to be confused with Mary Lewis Parsons, convulsed on the floor in affliction.

[00:28:45] Josh Hutchinson: Two days later, Mary Lewis Parsons was at home when she heard a loud rumble as if forty horses had been there and he walked in, that night, he dreamed about fighting Satan. On Wednesday, February nineteenth, [00:29:00] Hugh asked George Langton to sell him some hay. Langton declined.

[00:29:04] Sarah Jack: On Friday, February twenty first sixteen fifty one, Hannah Langton made a bag pudding, which came out split from one end to the other as if cut by a knife. This was the second time in ten days this had happened. John Lombard and the Langtons decided to conduct an experiment and threw the pudding into the fire. Shortly thereafter, Bess Sewell arrived, though not the expected visitor. The group dismissed her visit and redirected their suspicions towards Hugh Parsons when he arrived an hour later.

[00:29:36] Josh Hutchinson: On Saturday, February twenty second, the Langtons complained about Hugh's witchcraft to William Pynchon. Mercy Marshfield also complained about Hugh that day, as he had allegedly interfered with Blanche Bedortha during childbirth.

[00:29:50] Sarah Jack: Sunday, February 23, the Langtons tried a third pudding, this one dividing into three even slices. They complained again to Pynchon.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Josh Hutchinson: Tuesday, February twenty fifth, Thomas Miller was cut by an enchanted saw blade. That same day, Anthony Dorchester complained to Pynchon about Hugh magically stealing his cow tongue root, and Griffith Jones complained about Hugh making knives disappear and reappear.

[00:30:17] Sarah Jack: On Wednesday, February 26, 1651, Mary Lewis Parsons was arrested and detained on charges of witchcraft. Benjamin Cooley and Anthony Dorchester were assigned to watch Mary that night. Mary spoke to her watchers about Hugh's witchcraft. The pretrial examination was the next day, February twenty seventh. Pynchon took statements from neighbors, including John Matthews, Mary Ashley, Sarah Edwards, George Colton, Benjamin Cooley, and Anthony Dorchester. He was arrested later on the twenty seventh.

[00:30:49] Josh Hutchinson: He Hugh was led up the street. As he passed the Stebbins house, Anne Stebbins cried out,' ah, witch, ah, witch!' and collapsed. She had [00:31:00] seizures after. The same day, two year old Joseph Bedortha screamed and cried about a dog only he could see.

[00:31:07] Sarah Jack: Then on Saturday, March first, Hugh was examined by Pynchon. Many accusers testified of their bewitchment at Hugh's hand, and he was asked about afflicting the minister's children. It was noted that his sleeping in the Longmeadow instead of at home was sinister. Lastly, testimony to the indifference Hugh showed upon the death of his son Samuel was most compelling.

[00:31:32] Josh Hutchinson: On Sunday night, March second, Hugh suffered from an internal buildup of pressure, but didn't need to relieve himself when offered. How magical.

[00:31:43] Sarah Jack: March third, Pynchon ordered Hugh to be searched for witch marks.

[00:31:47] Josh Hutchinson: March fourth, baby Joshua Parsons died suddenly. Henry Smith noted in the town register that Joshua was killed by his mother, Mary Lewis Parsons.

[00:31:58] Sarah Jack: Starting March twelfth, hearings [00:32:00] resumed with more accuser testimony, and this continued over several days.

[00:32:05] Josh Hutchinson: Mary Lewis Parsons told Thomas Cooper about her party with the devil's own, Hugh Parsons, Sarah Merrick, and Bess Sewell that happened when she passed out at the ale house in her trance with the devil.

[00:32:18] Josh Hutchinson: Monday, March seventeenth sixteen fifty one, John Lombard testified before Pynchon.

[00:32:25] Sarah Jack: And Sarah Miller had fits a few doors down.

[00:32:28] Josh Hutchinson: Tuesday, March eighteenth, Hugh was examined a second time. This time, Mary was present. In all, thirty five people testified at the two hearings.

[00:32:38] Sarah Jack: Including the minister Moxon.

[00:32:40] Josh Hutchinson: Pynchon asked Mary to sum up her evidence against Hugh. She said that, first of all, Hugh always knew what she'd been talking about. Secondly, strange noises preceded Hugh's returns homes. Third, she'd seen a strange dog in the marsh. Fourth, the misfortunes of his [00:33:00] enemies

[00:33:00] Sarah Jack: On Saturday, March 22, 1651, Jonathan Taylor, Mercy Marshfield, John Lombard, and Thomas Merrick went to see Pynchon and informed him that Hugh had said he had often been afraid that his wife was a witch all the way back on February twenty sixth when Mary was arrested.

[00:33:18] Josh Hutchinson: Monday, March twenty fourth, Hugh and Mary began the journey to Boston for trial.

[00:33:25] Sarah Jack: Mary Bliss Parsons, not to be confused with Mary Lewis Parsons, was called a distracted woman by her husband, who would lock her up in the cellar at night, though she complained it was full of spirits. She also saw spirits while she was washing laundry in the brook.

[00:33:41] Josh Hutchinson: On March twenty seventh, Sarah Miller saw a spectral man. Jonathan Taylor testified April seventh to Pynchon. April twentieth, the Taylor child, Anna, died.

[00:33:54] Sarah Jack: Jonathan Taylor, Mercy Marshfield, Samuel Marshfield, Hannah Langton, and [00:34:00] Simon Beamon traveled to Boston to bear witness at the end of April.

[00:34:04] Josh Hutchinson: Mary was to be tried May eighth by the general court, but she was too sick that day and the next, so her trial was postponed until May thirteenth. That day, though she was still sick, she was tried. She was indicted for witchcraft and for the murder of her son, Joshua Parsons.

[00:34:24] Sarah Jack: The testimonies of thirty people were heard in court, but most were only read. Seven of the thirty witnesses managed to appear in court and swear under oath.

[00:34:34] Josh Hutchinson: Mary was acquitted of bewitching Rebecca and Martha Moxon. However, she plead guilty to the murder charge and was condemned to die. But governor John Endicott granted Mary a reprieve until May 29. Unfortunately, she passed away in prison between the thirteenth and twenty ninth of May.

[00:34:58] Josh Hutchinson: George Colton, [00:35:00] Jonathan Taylor, and Simon Beamon traveled to Boston for Hugh's trial in mid 1651.

[00:35:04] Josh Hutchinson: one.

[00:35:06] Sarah Jack: On June seventeenth sixteen fifty one, Hugh pled not guilty to witchcraft. At the June seventeenth session, Hugh was neither acquitted nor convicted, and the case was referred to the court of assistance. On May twelfth sixteen fifty two, Hugh faced trial by the court of assistance. Although no proof was presented of the charge that a witch was someone who hath or consulted with a familiar spirit, he was convicted. However, the general court overturned Hughes' conviction around May twenty sixth, and he was subsequently released from jail on June first sixteen fifty two.

[00:35:43] Josh Hutchinson: After he was released from jail, Hugh stayed in Boston a while with his daughter, Hannah. Sometime shortly after the trial, other accused witches, Sarah Merrick and Mercy Marshfield, passed away. At nearly the same time, Beth [00:36:00] Sewell and her family relocated to Wickford, Rhode Island.

[00:36:04] Josh Hutchinson: In sixteen fifty four, Simon Beamon married Alice Young junior, daughter of Alice Young, who had been the colonies' first victim of the witch trials.

[00:36:17] Sarah Jack: Hugh and his daughter, Hannah, moved to Rhode Island, probably to Portsmouth, in sixteen fifty eight. He married the widow of John Wood, a sea captain who worked for John Winthrop. Hannah married Henry Matteson and had seven children.

[00:36:32] Sarah Jack: Hugh died June eighteenth sixteen eighty five.

[00:36:36] Sarah Jack: Now for a minute with Mary.

[00:36:39] Mary-Louise Bingham: Sarah, Josh, and I had the pleasure of meeting with advocate Ikponwosa Ero on August thirtieth. I.K., who was born in Nigeria, is a lawyer by trade and spent six years as the first United Nations independent expert on the enjoyment of human rights of persons living with albinism. Her advocacy [00:37:00] focused on leaving no one behind, serving the most vulnerable first. Through her online presentations, I learned that people with albinism living south of the Sahara in Africa are often attacked. Their assailants will smuggle the body parts of the person living with albinism due to the belief that the body parts could be used for witchcraft rituals.

[00:37:23] Mary-Louise Bingham: When asked how she would advise her predecessor at the UN, IK said, "remember who you are working for." Then she concluded, "you are also working for those who have already died untimely deaths due to attack or discrimination whose memory you now honor by protecting others." Thank you, Ikponwosa Ero.

[00:37:43] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

[00:37:47] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts news.

[00:37:49] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunt urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide. At End Witch Hunts, our unwavering commitment drives us to actively educate and advocate for the [00:38:00] eradication of witchcraft accusation violence. We firmly believe in the power of collective action to bring about positive change. In alignment with our mission, we proudly support The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices, TINAAWAHP for short. Discover their impactful global advocacy work and their affiliated organizations at theinternationalnetwork.org. Subscribe at the bottom of their home page for the latest updates contributing to a deeper understanding of ongoing initiatives worldwide.

[00:38:32] Sarah Jack: Watch IK Ero's recent keynote on global advocacy for victims of witchcraft accusations and ritual attacks. You can find the link in our show notes. As the first UN independent expert on human rights for persons with albinism, she provides valuable insights and steps for future advocacy in a video titled Keynote for Expert Workshop, TINAAWAHP, November 2023. Gain perspective and consider how you can contribute to the fight for the rights and safety of victims [00:39:00] counting on us all.

[00:39:01] Sarah Jack: Join us for justice for the witch trial victims of Massachusetts by signing and sharing the exoneration petition for the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project at change.org/witchtrials. Massachusetts residents, engage your representatives, and if you're a voting member of the Massachusetts general court, lead or collaborate on the amendment effort to secure formal apologies.

[00:39:25] Sarah Jack: Thank you for supporting our podcast. Consider a financial contribution to empower our education and advocacy efforts. During this holiday season, think of End Witch Hunts for your charitable gifts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to contribute and help bring an end to the dark history of witch hunting practices.

[00:39:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.

[00:39:45] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.

[00:39:47] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.

[00:39:52] Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.

[00:39:54] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get podcasts.

[00:39:57] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com

[00:39:59] Sarah Jack: [00:40:00] com.

[00:40:00] Josh Hutchinson: We're excited about our podcast changing from Thou Shalt Not Suffer, The Witch Trial Podcast, to Witch Hunt in January twenty twenty four. Stay tuned for more great episodes of thou shalt not suffer through December, and look for Witch Hunt, January first.

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December 8, 2023

Mary Esty: Victim of the Salem Witch Hunt

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Show Notes

In this episode of ‘Thou Shalt Not Suffer, The Witch Trial Podcast’, hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack delve into an intriguing conversation with Mary Louise Bingham about their mutual ancestor, Mary Esty, who was executed during the Salem Witch Trials. They explore their genealogical connections to Mary Esty, discuss her life and tragic fate, and shed light on the historical context of the time. Hear Mary Esty’s own words from original documents, including her impassioned plea to end the witch hunt.

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Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:16] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. In this episode, Josh and I talked to Mary Louise Bingham about our mutual ancestor, Mary Esty, who was hanged for witchcraft during the Salem Witch Hunt.
[00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: And stay tuned at the end for a special announcement
[00:00:30] Sarah Jack: We hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
[00:00:32] Josh Hutchinson: And enjoy any other holidays you celebrate this time of year.
[00:00:36] Sarah Jack: One thing I know you'll enjoy is our chat with Mary.
[00:00:41] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah, how are you connected to Mary Esty?
[00:00:44] Sarah Jack: So Mary Esty was the second Towne connection, direct connection that I found. I knew that I descended from Rebecca since the nineties. That was something my family had passed down. And then when I was doing my own [00:01:00] research, I realized the Mary line was there. I couldn't believe it. Their grandchildren married. So John Esty, their son, married and then had Hannah, and Francis and Rebecca had Elizabeth who married William Russell and William Russell married Hannah. And then my Russell's go all the way to my fifth great grandmother's maiden name was Russell.
[00:01:28] Josh Hutchinson: So you're connected to Mary through a grandchild, and I'm connected to Mary through her son, Isaac Jr., who married Abigail Kimball, and they had a daughter, Sarah Esty, who married Joseph Cummings. How did you say you were connected, Mary, through Isaac Jr. also?
[00:01:51] Mary Louise Bingham: Yes, I'm connected through Isaac Jr., as well. But in terms of the Towne family, so Mary's siblings, [00:02:00] I descend from Edmund, who I found out about first, Jacob, Joseph, and then it was Gail Garda who discovered Mary Esty, and that was such a surprise. I had no inkling about that, it was such a surprise. In fact, it's one of those where I remember exactly where I was when I found out that Mary Esty was my nine times great grandmother.
[00:02:28] Josh Hutchinson: I just found out that I'm an Edmund also.
[00:02:33] Mary Louise Bingham: Here we go again, Josh!
[00:02:37] Sarah Jack: I think it's interesting that Mary Esty, Mary Towne, was not any of ours first known link to the Salem Witch Trials. She was our secondary find. All of us. Second or third, third, fourth, fifth, maybe for Josh, and with history, she always, you know, is a little less known than her [00:03:00] sister.
[00:03:01] Mary Louise Bingham: And that's why I think this episode is very historic, because it's the first episode where we're telling the story of Mary Esty. I don't think I've ever heard any other podcast episode about the Salem Witch Trials even mention her name. They name a lot of the others, but Mary Esty is not one of them.
[00:03:25] Sarah Jack: I'm so excited that we're gonna talk about her today.
[00:03:29] Josh Hutchinson: And if you've listened to this podcast at all, you've probably heard me tell the story about how it was at Mary Esty's sister's house, the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, where I found out my first connection to the witch trials through my ancestor, Joseph Hutchinson, and that inspired me to get into the genealogy, which then led to a cousin in Massachusetts who had our connection to Mary [00:04:00] Esty researched. One Towne led to another in my tree. And now I've got Edmond Towne also in my tree.
[00:04:11] Mary Louise Bingham: Edmund is also an ancestor of Lucille Ball.
[00:04:16] Josh Hutchinson: So I'm a little bit closer to Lucille Ball than I was before. Like, one step on the genealogy.
[00:04:25] Mary Louise Bingham: It really is exciting.
[00:04:28] Sarah Jack: When we first teamed up last year on the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, Mary Bingham and Sarah Jack knew that they were related through Mary Esty, but we didn't know Josh was yet. So three Mary Estys teamed up to work on the exoneration for Connecticut.
[00:04:48] Sarah Jack: That's
[00:04:49] Mary Louise Bingham: Yes.
[00:04:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, without realizing it.
[00:04:55] Mary Louise Bingham: I know that's wonderful though. That's our connection, our spiritual [00:05:00] connection to each other, too, so as far as I'm concerned.
[00:05:03] Sarah Jack: right.
[00:05:04] Josh Hutchinson: It's imprinted into our DNA. We're supposed to be friends.
[00:05:14] Sarah Jack: Mary, please tell us the story of the mutual ancestor who brought us all together.
[00:05:20] Mary Louise Bingham: Mary was the sixth child born to William and Joanna Towne about the year 1634 at Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England. And William was a farmer and a basket weaver in this seaport town, known for its smoked herring, and he lived on a three acre house lot.
[00:05:38] Josh Hutchinson: You can learn more about the lives of William and Joanna Towne in Great Yarmouth by listening to our December 29th, 2022 episode, Rebecca Nurse of Salem with Dan Gagnon, and our November 10th, 2022 episode, Witch Hunts in Great Yarmouth and Salem with Dr. Danny Buck.
[00:05:55] Mary Louise Bingham: So why did the Townes leave? [00:06:00] Well, William wanted to worship as what we term today as a Puritan, but back in the 1600s, that term was considered to be derogatory. William would have considered himself and his family to worship as a community of believers known as the people of God. Their belief centered on reading the scripture without the superstitious articles in the church that had significant monetary value. During William and Joanna's time, some of those items were sold, smashed, or demolished, as in many of the side altars. And according to author Dan Gagnon, the Townes probably attended, and I quote, and unquote, 'unofficial services,' where they hired their own clergy to preach on Sunday afternoons and market days.
[00:06:51] Mary Louise Bingham: The new Archbishop of Canterbury in 1633 further reformed the liturgy to resemble that of the Catholic [00:07:00] tradition, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Two years later, between April and September of 1635, William and Joanna decide to leave everything behind, making a dangerous journey across the Atlantic Sea with four children, including one year old Mary, to worship as they saw fit in new surroundings of which held both mystery, danger, and hope.
[00:07:30] Mary Louise Bingham: Upon their arrival, the Townes ended up at the northeastern part of Salem today, which is known as Danversport in Danvers, Mass, current day North Shore Avenue on what was a nine and a half acre farm. Their first house would have probably been an English wigwam, which did not protect well from the outside elements, though there was a fireplace, but the fireplace was made of wood, of all [00:08:00] things. About a year after their move, there was a hurricane, which caused great damage and wiped away many of the homes. So sometime after that, William would have had a more colonial wooden structure built. It was at this residence where the final two Towne siblings were born, Sarah and Joseph.
[00:08:22] Mary Louise Bingham: Young Mary would have learned how to operate the day-to-day activities of the household, such as cooking, sewing, weaving, spinning, using a cheese press and a butter churn, eventually milking the cows, taking care of the chickens, as long as the activity was in the home, in the herb or kitchen garden, or in the barn. Mary would master each skill with precision to perfection. In time, Mary would have to teach her own daughters what she herself was taught by her own mother.
[00:08:54] Mary Louise Bingham: Rebecca moved out of this residence about 1645, when she [00:09:00] married Frances Nurse. Then in 1652, William and Joanna moved the rest of the family more inland to Topsfield on a 40 acre farm, a definite move up for 18-year-old Mary and her family. Eventually, as William and his sons were granted and purchased land neighboring their parents, the entire Towne and Esty families owned the whole length of the seven mile drumlin running from east to west from what is now Essex County Co-op and the Fairgrounds all the way out to Beverly.
[00:09:37] Mary Louise Bingham: What is not certain, however, is whether or not Mary knew Isaac Esty while she was living in Salem or met him when they both lived in Topsfield. The first time Isaac appeared in the court records was in 1652, where he acknowledged judgment to Edmund Botter at a court held at Salem on November [00:10:00] 30th, but this entry does not specify where Isaac was living at that time. Also, 18 years old was considered young for a woman to get married, so she probably was married when she was 20 or 21. And since the Topsfield records from its incorporation in 1650 to 1658 were lost in a house fire, we can't be certain when Mary and Isaac were married and exactly when their eldest child, Isaac Jr., was born. In fact, Isaac Jr. is not even mentioned in the Massachusetts Vital Records to the year 1849 for the town of Topsfield.
[00:10:42] Mary Louise Bingham: But we do know that Mary eventually moved just across the street from her parents after her marriage to Isaac. And we know that Isaac loved Mary, as he demonstrated in both words and action. He said in his petition to the General [00:11:00] Court after he reviewed his travel and jail expenses, as well as the cost to provide provisions for Mary in 1692, that his total expenditures for that year for that travel was 20 pounds. Isaac continued, and I quote, 'besides my sorrow and trouble of heart in being deprived of her after such a manner which this world can never make me any compensation for,' end quote. Today, that dollar value might be about $2,070. Again, this dollar amount certainly does not include the trauma experienced by Isaac himself, his and Mary's children, and their grandchildren. Isaac traveled two times a week for five months, without fail, to bring provisions to Mary. These were long journeys, and Mary spent time in [00:12:00] three jails. The round trip from his home to the Salem jail was 14 miles. The round trip to the Ipswich jail was 14 miles. The round trip to the Boston jail was 44 miles. So this clearly demonstrated that Isaac was a devoted and loving husband to Mary and she a devoted wife to him.
[00:12:26] Sarah Jack: Forty four miles was a long way to travel in those days. Even traveling by horseback, you'd be hard pressed to complete the trip without overnighting somewhere, and he would have had all his work at home waiting for him.
[00:12:41] Josh Hutchinson: And Isaac Sr. wouldn't have been the only one in the family to be affected by this. As he was away, his adult children would have been helping tend to chores on his farm, therefore leaving their own families [00:13:00] and spending more time away than they would have, working extra hours, because they still had to work full time in their own professions and working their own farms and then go off and tend to their parents' farm.
[00:13:17] Sarah Jack: And they were used to seeing their mother there if they were visiting. If they were there before this, they would have gotten to spend time with her.
[00:13:26] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there was always that empty seat at the table.
[00:13:31] Mary Louise Bingham: Mary and Isaac had nine children who lived into adulthood. At least two of her sons were active in town affairs as surveyors, constables, and bricklayers. Isaac Jr. learned the trade of cooper, presumably from his father.
[00:13:49] Mary Louise Bingham: Both Mary and Isaac were members in full communion at the Topsfield Church before 1684. This meant that the community of believers believed that both [00:14:00] Mary and Isaac were God-fearing Christians and that they were going to heaven once they died. They were among the Elect who received communion once a month.
[00:14:09] Josh Hutchinson: And most colonists were not church members, though they were required to attend services.
[00:14:16] Sarah Jack: Before the Salem Witch Hunt, it was rare for a full church member to be accused of witchcraft.
[00:14:22] Josh Hutchinson: Even in Salem, most of the population was not full church members, so most of the people that accused were not full church members, but there were enough church members accused that it stood out.
[00:14:40] Josh Hutchinson: It's one of the contrasts between Salem and a regular witch trial, which only involved one or two suspects at a time. Those cases, generally, it was not church members.
[00:14:53] Mary Louise Bingham: Mary was also known to tell someone if they spoke out of turn and to be very careful what [00:15:00] they say. She was also described by both the jail keepers at the Salem and Ipswich locations as a model prisoner. So we might assume that Mary did what she was supposed to do, but stood in the truth, or in her truth all the while.
[00:15:20] Mary Louise Bingham: So how do we get from a woman who was totally accepted by her community to a woman accused of being in league with the devil? One reason could be that Mary's sisters, Rebecca and Sarah, were already in jail for the same crime, which increased the likelihood that Mary would also be charged at some point.
[00:15:41] Mary Louise Bingham: Reason two, John Putnam Jr., who is a cousin-in-law to Ann Putnam Sr., said later that he heard Ann Putnam Sr. say something about the Townes sister's mother, gossip also most likely heard by two of Mary's chief [00:16:00] accusers, Ann Putnam, Jr. and Mercy Lewis, who was the Putnam servant living with Thomas Putnam Jr. and Ann Putnam. And please remember, it was believed that witchcraft could be passed from mother to daughter.
[00:16:15] Josh Hutchinson: John Putnam Jr. testified that, 'I, the said John Putnam, had reported something which I had heard concerning the mother of Rebecca Nurse, Mary Esty, and Sarah Cloyce.'
[00:16:27] Sarah Jack: And Ann Putnam Sr. testified that, quote, 'Young John Putnam had said that it was no wonder they were witches for their mother was so before them.'
[00:16:37] Mary Louise Bingham: Sure enough, the warrant for Mary's arrest was issued or sworn out on April 21st, and her chief accusers were Ann Putnam Jr., Mercy Lewis, Mary Walcott, and quote unquote 'others.' She would have been brought to Nathaniel Ingersoll's tavern until it was her turn for her pre-trial examination, when she would have walked down the [00:17:00] street to the meeting house. And the meeting house would have been packed on the inside, and people peering in the windows on the outside, making it very difficult to see. The atmosphere inside would have been incredibly noisy and disruptive. But Mary stood her ground against her accusers and the magistrates, even though they tried to bully her into a confession with leading questions such as, 'What do you say? Are you guilty? And, what have you done to these children?' Mary replied, 'I can say before Christ Jesus, I am free. I know nothing.' The magistrates then ask, 'how can you say that? You see that these tormented and accuse you. You know nothing'? Then Mary turned the tables and questioned the magistrates, 'would you have me accuse myself?' they reply, 'yes, if you were guilty.' Then they continue to badger her. 'How [00:18:00] far have you complied with Satan, whereby he takes this advantage against you?' Mary replied, 'Sir, I have never complied but prayed against him all my days. I have no compliance with Satan in this. What would you have me do?' And then they repeat, 'confess if you'd be guilty.' Mary doesn't waver, 'I will say it if it were my last time. I am clear.'
[00:18:28] Mary Louise Bingham: After Mary's pretrial examination was done, she was taken to the Salem jail and stayed there until possibly May 13th, when she may have been transferred to Boston. And this, we are not sure of because Margo Burns has stated that that particular document has a tear in it and it's missing one of the names. But we suppose that that's Mary Esty, because all of the others in Topsfield who the warrant went out [00:19:00] for that same day were all transferred to Boston at that time.
[00:19:03] Mary Louise Bingham: It seems that three of Mary's accusers changed their minds regarding her guilt, and she was released from prison on May 18th to the home of her son, Isaac. Her family must have been relieved, and the Nurse and Cloyce families must have received hope that maybe Rebecca and Sarah might be returned to their homes, as well.
[00:19:26] Mary Louise Bingham: So why not go home to her husband? One might surmise that Isaac, Sr. may not have been able to adequately nurse Mary back to health and since Isaac, Jr. only had his wife Abigail and their infant daughter at their house, he and Abigail may have been the best choice to care for Mary until she could return to her home. Sadly, that did not happen.
[00:19:52] Mary Louise Bingham: There were a lot of people in and out of John and Hannah Putnam, Jr. 's house on May 20th. The [00:20:00] reason? Because their servant, Mercy Lewis, who previously was a servant to John's cousin, Thomas Putnam, Jr., was violently sick in both mind and body. In fact, Samuel Abbey got wind of Mercy's condition, and he went to the Putnam household to see what was happening.
[00:20:20] Mary Louise Bingham: He saw Mercy in bed and unable to speak. Because John was not home, Hannah asked Samuel to retrieve Ann Putnam Jr. so that she could ID the specter who tormented Mercy. Samuel returned with Ann and Abigail Williams, and possibly Sarah Trask, who was along for the ride. So Ann and Abigail ID'd the specter as the quote unquote 'woman who was sent home the other day,' end quote.
[00:20:50] Mary Louise Bingham: The other specters were visiting as well, namely Anne Whitridge and John Willard. According to Ann and Abigail, they all seemed to be [00:21:00] attacking Mercy while she lay still and unable to speak. But that changed, and Mercy, when she was able to speak, begged God not to let the specters kill her. She further declared that Mary's specter would kill her by midnight, because Mercy remained steadfast in her belief that Mary was a witch, when the others basically cleared her.
[00:21:24] Mary Louise Bingham: Mary Walcott entered the scene at some point that same day and said Mary's specter told her that she would kill Mercy by midnight if she was able. So finally, Constable John Putnam returned home about 8 p. m. with his friend, Marshal George Herrick, as well as Benjamin Hutchinson.
[00:21:45] Josh Hutchinson: Benjamin Hutchinson was my ninth great granduncle, and this isn't the only time he stuck his nose in it. In fact, we'll have tales of some of his adventures in future episodes.
[00:21:56] Josh Hutchinson: And Mercy Lewis is my cousin. [00:22:00] So I'm related to so many of the characters in this episode. It's really personal to me and to see my relatives, Mercy Lewis and Benjamin Hutchinson being deployed almost against Mary Esty, my grandmother, is very weird to me to think about all my relatives fighting for life in such a way. We got Mercy and everybody, Benjamin Hutchinson, thinking that Mercy's going to die by midnight if they don't go and arrest Mary Esty, and just so tense for both sides. And I'm related to people on either side and that itself being related to the people who did the accusations, who made the arrests, that is a weighty [00:23:00] kind of ancestry, and the way I tried to use that to understand why accusations were made, and that helps to learn how we can stop witch hunts if we understand how they started in the first place, and having ancestors who accused gets me thinking about that a lot.
[00:23:28] Mary Louise Bingham: They seriously thought that Mary's specter would kill Mercy before midnight. Now the rush was on to apprehend Mary. Though John and Benjamin's travels for the next three hours or so are not recorded, George Herrick's travels are, and it's possible that they all may have traveled together. Anyhow, Herrick would have traveled south five miles to John Hathorne's house so that Hathorne could sign the complaint. Then [00:24:00] Herrick travels north 8 miles to Isaac Esty Jr. 's house. Isaac probably saw Herrick approach the house, gathered Mary, and swiftly brought her downstairs into the basement, which would have been a small root cellar at that time And she was probably crouched, most likely in a fetal position, by the cornerstone. Words were most likely exchanged between Isaac Jr. and Herrick. I cannot even let my mind and heart begin to imagine the gripping fear Mary experienced as she heard everything going on, then to hear those footsteps approach closer and closer until they find her and she is arrested yet again. And lore states that Herrick was not patient with those whom he arrested.
[00:24:54] Mary Louise Bingham: Then Herrick, with Mary, was required to travel nine miles south to [00:25:00] Beedle's Tavern in Salem. This must have been harrowing again for Mary. The men testified that they had returned to John Putnam, Jr. 's house by midnight only to discover Mercy was still not well, and she continued to have seizure like fits, complained of severe stomach issues until she fell asleep at dawn.
[00:25:22] Josh Hutchinson: When they put the time, the midnight deadline in here, it really gets very dramatic and intense. It's like watching a Hollywood thriller with that bomb ticking down and are they going to be able to defuse it in time?
[00:25:42] Sarah Jack: It's like a scene. It gives us the opportunity to see this commotion and this reaction and this fear and these men going after, hunting the witch. And I, personally, a lot of times I'm thinking of just that courtroom [00:26:00] and people riled up and, backing each other, but this is different.
[00:26:04] Josh Hutchinson: And it shows you the intensity of the fear of witchcraft that they're willing to travel all these miles at top speed trying to arrest her before the deadline so that Mercy's affliction would stop and she wouldn't be murdered. They think they're preventing a murder by doing this.
[00:26:30] Sarah Jack: Was John Hathorne asleep or was he waiting? He was probably asleep and they didn't mind waking him to stop the murder.
[00:26:39] Josh Hutchinson: It's a warrant getting issued to call the judge in the dead of the night and try and get a suspect apprehended or a site searched in a hurry. And This guy's dead asleep, passed out, who knows what condition he's in.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Sarah Jack: is recovering, presumably.
[00:27:04] Josh Hutchinson: Presumably that family doesn't know what's going on at the Putnam house, because they're all in bed for the night. And they're thinking she's a free woman and she's going to be okay. And then it gets pulled back. That's, gut wrenching. It's ripping your heart right out of you. Imagine what both of the Isaacs felt at that moment and the rest of the family.
[00:27:31] Josh Hutchinson: You think your wife and mother is in the clear and then she's just jerked away from you.
[00:27:39] Sarah Jack: And they know she's innocent. It's like a community betrayal to them.
[00:27:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it would be so easy just to be angry at basically half the community is lining up against them. So many powerful people, the Putnams being involved and getting [00:28:00] George Herrick out in the dark of night. He also, the marshal of Essex County, would he have been asleep? Was he still awake on duty somewhere?
[00:28:12] Josh Hutchinson: How did they get him over there to Salem Village so fast?
[00:28:17] Sarah Jack: Not one of these men said, hold up, let's discuss this in the morning, because there wasn't time.
[00:28:24] Josh Hutchinson: And they're just, yeah, because there's that midnight deadline, it's that ticking clock, just ticking down and they're desperate people at this time, willing to do basically anything. It's I picture, just horses zipping along rough trails and roads in the dark at night, people carrying lanterns or torches, maybe.
[00:28:54] Sarah Jack: And Mercy's suffering.
[00:28:56] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and Mercy the whole time is having this, these [00:29:00] seizures, these fits, and everybody around her is just gotta be so tense with worry. So everybody here is getting dragged through the emotional wringer this night. Nobody's winning this one.
[00:29:19] Josh Hutchinson: So arresting Mary Esty, maybe it saved Mercy Lewis's life in these people's minds, but it didn't stop her afflictions altogether. So what does that mean? What are the implications of that? Does it mean there are other people afflicting her, or is Mary Esty somehow still doing damage from jail?
[00:29:46] Sarah Jack: There would've been accused in the jail, right?
[00:29:48] Josh Hutchinson: There would have been other accused people in the jail.
[00:29:50] Sarah Jack: Yeah. So Mary arrives at the I can just imagine the wail, the wailings that could have happened, the gasping, [00:30:00] the shock, the disappointment, and the fear.
[00:30:04] Josh Hutchinson: Right.
[00:30:05] Sarah Jack: Big brother or Yeah, Big Brother. When the house is sequestered those, they're waiting to see who's gonna come to the sequester house. shocked who walks in. But this is not just somebody losing a game.
[00:30:22] Josh Hutchinson: I'm just thinking about the people who were in jail already. They get awoken in the middle of the night, they're curled up on their piles of straw and trying to sleep on the rough floors of the really dank dungeon. And they had woken up and they're in their half. Asleep state seeing Mary Esty come to them thinking, Oh, I was so hopeful when she got released that the rest of us would soon be released. And now she's back.
[00:30:59] Josh Hutchinson: [00:31:00] Totally stunned, totally caught off guard. Yeah. Just in shock, jaws dropped to the ground and just, still rubbing the sleep out of their eyes. Am I seeing this? This is Mary Esty? Yeah. And I'd be crying my eyes out just thinking, I thought I might have a chance to get out of here like she did.
[00:31:22] Sarah Jack: Because nobody's been hanged at this point.
[00:31:25] Josh Hutchinson: No, this is still early. Nobody's been tried yet. But there've been people sitting in jail for two months by this point and just more and more people getting thrown in jail. And finally, there's a ray of hope for all the prisoners when Mary's freed that, oh, maybe, they're coming to their senses and this madness is going to end and then she's back.
[00:31:53] Sarah Jack: Absolutely. Because it's been several [00:32:00] people were hanged in the colonies.
[00:32:02] Josh Hutchinson: But the recent Goody Glover hanging in 1688, just three and a half years before this is unfolding would have still been,
[00:32:15] Josh Hutchinson: ,
[00:32:15] Josh Hutchinson: yeah. And that is tied to afflictions of children. And you're seeing that scenario play out but on this much larger scale. There's many more afflicted people, and they're pointing the finger at everybody. It doesn't matter your status or anything. They're coming after you.
[00:32:39] Sarah Jack: Those afflictions were affirmed by the authorities just a few years before.
[00:32:46] Josh Hutchinson: Cotton Mather himself had written his book, Memorable Providences, which featured the Goody Glover case and the so called possession or affliction of the [00:33:00] Goodwin children, the four children she was supposed to have tormented. And so that's fresh. People have read that book. They've heard that book being read. They've seen it around, they've heard sermons about witchcraft and everything, so it's all in their minds, and this is unfolding in real life, in their own lives.
[00:33:29] Sarah Jack: Right before their eyes.
[00:33:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's just shocking. I would have been so bewildered and befuddled by Mary's return, panic stations right there.
[00:33:46] Mary Louise Bingham: Since the records of her second pretrial examination do not exist, one can surmise that Mary was interrogated this time at Beedle's Tavern or at the Salem Town Meeting House. Either way, [00:34:00] Mary was sent to the Boston jail on May 23rd. Two days later, Rebecca Nurse and Sarah Cloyce were transferred to that same jail. This would be the last time that all three sisters were together and hopefully found some type of comfort in each other.
[00:34:20] Mary Louise Bingham: In a deposition offered against all three Towne sisters, and most likely used at both Rebecca and Mary's trial, was that of John Putnam Jr. and his wife, Hannah. He spoke of his own afflictions, from which he recovered, and the afflictions of his infant child, who died. John and Hannah described the affliction of their baby as similar to those afflictions suffered by those who accused Mary. John and Hannah were so frightened for their child's life they sent for his mother and, later, a doctor. His mother believed the child was bewitched, and the doctor could not offer relief. John [00:35:00] said that the baby died such a violent death, and I quote, 'being enough to pierce a stony heart,' end quote. However, he does not say who bewitched the child.
[00:35:15] Mary Louise Bingham: So the gossip of which John referred somehow morphed into Joanna Towne, Mary's mother, being accused as a witch about 22 years prior to 1692. After researching, I discovered that Joanna was never formally accused of being a witch.
[00:35:34] Mary Louise Bingham: While Mary was in jail, her sister in law, Mary Browning Towne, who was the wife of Edmond Towne, was summoned to appear in court with all of her children on September 7th. They don't show up. Mary Towne issued a statement September 8th that the entire family was too sick to appear in court. At this time, her daughter, Rebecca, was [00:36:00] continually falling down for no apparent reason.
[00:36:03] Mary Louise Bingham: A second summons was issued only for Mary and her daughter, Rebecca, to appear. The return for the summons does not exist, so one might assume that Mary doesn't show up again, and it turns out that her daughter, Rebecca, does accuse Sarah Cloyce of bewitchment. The fact that they don't show up for Mary's trial does not save Mary's life, but it may have helped to delay Sarah's trial and saved Sarah's life. You see, the indictment against Sarah, which involved her niece, was returned ignoramus, along with the other three indictments. Sarah Cloyce never stood trial.
[00:36:48] Mary Louise Bingham: On September 9th, Mary and Sarah offered three suggestions to the magistrates. Number one, judges should offer legal advice to the accused, who did not have legal [00:37:00] representation. Number two, testimony should be heard from the family of the accused, their neighbors, and their religious leaders. And number three, balance the testimony of the afflicted with legal evidence.
[00:37:16] Mary Louise Bingham: Furthermore, Mary's solo petition to the court, which was composed to save others from being hanged, though her date was already chosen, suggests that the magistrates examine the afflicted separately and try some of the people who confessed. Mary was confident that some of the confessors were actually innocent and believed that they were innocent. And they disguised the fact that they had nothing to do with witchcraft.
[00:37:45] Mary Louise Bingham: Mary was hanged on September 22nd, 1692. Some of the family members start to petition to lift the stain from their family name in 1703. Isaac Esty, [00:38:00] Sr. and Jr., as well as Mary's daughter, Sarah Gill. And the same thing happened in 1709 and was signed by Isaac Esty and John Nurse, among others, who had other family members that were hanged. And then, of course, Isaac Senior's petition, spoken of earlier in 1710. October 17th, 1711, was Mary's reversal of attainder. Isaac had possibly passed away. His death date is not recorded, and Jacob is a subscriber for the Esty family. They were awarded the 20 pounds, and it was equally divided amongst their surviving children, who were Isaac Esty Jr., Joseph Esty, John Esty, Benjamin Esty, Jacob Esty, Joshua Esty, Sarah Gill, and Hannah Abbott.
[00:38:59] Sarah Jack: [00:39:00] We would like to close this segment with a reading of a petition Mary Esty submitted to the governor, judges, and ministers.
[00:39:06] Josh Hutchinson: The humble petition of Mary Esty unto His Excellencies Sir William Phipps, to the Honored Judge and Bench now sitting in Judicature in Salem, and the Reverend Ministers humbly showeth that whereas your poor and humble petitioner, being condemned to die, do humbly beg of you to take it into your judicious and pious considerations, that your poor and humble petitioner, knowing my own innocency, blessed be the Lord for it, and seeing plainly the wiles and subtlety of my accusers, I myself cannot but judge charitably of others that are going the same way of myself if the Lord steps not mightily in. I was confined a whole month upon the same account that I am condemned now for, and then cleared by the same afflicted persons, as some of your honors know. And in two days time, I [00:40:00] was cried out upon by them and have been confined, and now am condemned to die. The Lord above knows my innocency then, and likewise does now, as of the great day will be known to men and angels.
[00:40:14] Sarah Jack: I petition to your honors not for my own life, for I know I must die, and my appointed time is set. But the Lord, he knows it is that if it be possible, no more innocent blood may be shed, which undoubtedly cannot be avoided in the way and course you go in. I question not, but your honors does to the utmost of your powers in the discovery and detecting of witchcraft and witches, and would not be guilty of innocent blood for the world. But by my own innocency, I know you are in the wrong way. The Lord in His infinite mercy direct you in this great work if it be his blessed will that no more innocent blood be shed. I would humbly beg of you that your honors would be pleased to examine these afflicted persons strictly and keep them apart sometime, and likewise to try some of these [00:41:00] confessing witches, I being confident, there are several of them has belied themselves and others, as will appear, if not in this world, I am sure in the world to come, whither I am now a going, and I question not but you'll see an alteration of these things.
[00:41:15] Josh Hutchinson: ThEy say, myself and others, having made a league with the devil, we cannot confess. I know, and the Lord knows, as will shortly appear, they belie me, and so I question not but they do others. The Lord above, who is the searcher of all hearts, knows that, as I shall answer it at the tribunal seat, that I know not the least thing of witchcraft, therefore I cannot, I dare not, belie my own soul. I beg your honors not to deny this, my humble petition, from a poor, dying, innocent person, and I question not, but the Lord will give a blessing to your endeavors.

[00:41:56] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to stay tuned for a special announcement [00:42:00] following End Witch Hunts News.
[00:42:01] Sarah Jack: Discover your Towne family heritage with the Towne Family Association, dedicated to preserving the history of William Towne, Joanna Blessing, and their six children, including the three sisters from the Salem Witch Trials, Rebecca, Sarah, and Mary. Open to all interested in Towne family history, membership costs 22 for individuals and 25 for families annually. Take advantage of the special two year memberships at $40 for individuals and $44 for families. Join the community on Facebook in the Towne Cousins Facebook group to connect with over 2,000 other Towne family descendants. Embrace your roots. The Towne Family Association gets together every year for a reunion. In 2024, it will be in Salt Lake City, Utah. Find out more, visit the Facebook group Towne Cousins today.
[00:42:52] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide.
[00:42:57] Sarah Jack: At End Witch Hunts, we firmly believe in the power of [00:43:00] collective action to bring about positive change. In alignment with our mission, we proudly support the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. Explore the impactful work of this global network and its affiliated advocacy organizations at theinternationalnetwork.org. Take a moment to visit their website, where you can scroll to the bottom of the homepage and subscribe to receive their latest news and updates. By staying informed and sharing what you learn in your daily conversations, you contribute to a deeper understanding of ongoing initiatives worldwide.
[00:43:35] Sarah Jack: Join us in actively participating in these crucial efforts. Our podcast episodes feature insightful conversations with experts deeply involved in the network. Hit play to gain valuable perspectives from Damon Leff, Leo Igwe, Govind Kelkar, Samantha Spence, Amit Anand, and Miranda Forsyth. By listening to their experiences, you'll not only broaden your knowledge but also become a part of the movement against witch hunts. [00:44:00] Together, let's make a difference.
[00:44:02] Sarah Jack: Are you a part of the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project? It is seeking exoneration for wrongfully convicted individuals in Boston's witch trials. We aim to secure formal apologies for all formerly accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts. Give your support by signing and sharing the petition at change.org/witchtrials. If you're in Massachusetts, engage your representatives in proposing the amendment. And if you're a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, lead or collaborate on this amendment effort. Reach out to us for support. Let's unite to close this chapter of American history. Take action now.
[00:44:38] Sarah Jack: Thank you for supporting our projects by listening to and sharing our podcast episodes. If you'd like to further contribute, please consider a financial contribution. Your financial support empowers us to continue our education and advocacy efforts. During this holiday season, we invite you to keep End Witch Hunts in mind when considering your charitable gifts. We have [00:45:00] donate buttons on our websites. Your gift is tax deductible. Your support is instrumental in driving positive change and bringing an end to the dark history of witch hunting practices. For more information and to contribute, visit endwitchhunt.org.
[00:45:16] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:45:17] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:45:19] Josh Hutchinson: now we have our special important announcement.
[00:45:25] Josh Hutchinson: Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast will be renamed Witch Hunt and the change will take effect January 1st, 2024 when the ball drops in New York City.
[00:45:41] Sarah Jack: Josh and I will continue to host the show with important contributions from Mary.
[00:45:46] Josh Hutchinson: Witch Hunt will feature interviews with leading scholars and advocates.
[00:45:50] Sarah Jack: Topics will include past witch trials, modern extrajudicial witch hunts, and everything in between.
[00:45:58] Josh Hutchinson: We will also continue [00:46:00] to create 101 episodes about specific events, regions, and topics.
[00:46:05] Sarah Jack: As well as bonus episodes focused on representations of witches and witch hunts in popular culture.
[00:46:12] Josh Hutchinson: So thank you for continuing to listen to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, and for listening to Witch Hunt next year.
[00:46:21] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:46:23] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:46:26] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:46:29] Josh Hutchinson: Which will become aboutwitchhunts.com/ January 1st. And remember to tell your friends about Witch Hunt, coming January 1st, and stay tuned for more great episodes of Thou Shalt Not Suffer all through December.
[00:46:46] Sarah Jack: Thou Shalt Not Suffer and Witch Hunt are presented by End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:46:54] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

November 30, 2023

A True Account of Pirates with Katherine Howe

Show Notes

New York Times Bestselling Author Katherine Howe climbs aboard ship for a captivating conversation about her new novel, A True Account: Hannah Masury’s Sojourn Amongst the Pyrates, Written by Herself. Embark on a voyage with us as Katherine navigates us across the enthralling seas of piracy history, offering listeners an unforgettable discussion that delves into the high-stakes world of seafaring adventures. Her expertise and passion shine through, making this episode a must-listen for history enthusiasts, book lovers, and anyone seeking a thrilling journey into the past. Ready to embark on a literary adventure? Weigh anchor and hoist the mizzen! It’s time to press play and sail through the seas of history, mystery, and the indomitable spirit of characters like Hannah Masury. And we don’t forget the witch trials.

Pitch in here on #GivingTuesday, November 28th

www.KatherineHowe.com

Buy the book: A True Account by Katherine Howe

Buy the book: The Penguin Book of Witches, Edited by Katherine Howe

Order the book: The Penguin Book of Pirates, Edited by Katherine Howe

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

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Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Ahoy, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial and Pirate Podcast. I'm Able Seaman Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:19] Sarah Jack: And I'm First Mate Sarah 'Calico' Jack.
[00:00:23] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is acclaimed author Katherine Howe, who is here to talk to us about her new book on pirates.
[00:00:30] Sarah Jack: That's right, this is our special pirate Thanksgiving episode. You may also be asking what pirates are doing on a witch trial podcast.
[00:00:39] Josh Hutchinson: Well, you know Katherine Howe the witch trial writer, but you're fixing to meet Katherine Howe the pirate writer.
[00:00:45] Sarah Jack: As announced here last year, she has written a wonderful historical novel titled, A True Account, Hannah Masury's Sojourn Amongst the Pirates, Written by Herself.
[00:00:55] Josh Hutchinson: It's not just wonderful. It's marvelous.[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Sarah Jack: That's an understatement. I had such a great time reading this book.
[00:01:05] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Once I picked it up, I literally could not put it down until I was done. It's really a thrilling book, and you have to know what's coming up next, so it just keeps you in its hook like grip.
[00:01:24] Sarah Jack: Hannah's account pulls you in immediately, and you start hearing it from the moment the story begins. It's full of local history and Hannah.
[00:01:39] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, the beginning of the book is just so captivating and really drew me in. And that's why I just, from there on, things just kept going and going. And I had to keep reading and reading.
[00:01:58] Sarah Jack: This is one of those books, as soon as you [00:02:00] have your nose in it, you are so glad you picked this book up and started it and you're thinking about your schedule and you hope you can clear your calendar so you can enjoy every page.
[00:02:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, you will be willing to drop everything once you get into this. Forget about sleeping that night or running the errands. They can wait, but Hannah Masury's story cannot.
[00:02:25] Sarah Jack: Hey, book clubs, this is a book for your club. This is great for discussion.
[00:02:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, you really enjoy Katherine Howe's comments on the book in this episode, and you can use those as some talking points in your book club. And we talk about how there are more similarities between witches and pirates than you might think.
[00:02:54] Sarah Jack: Executing the witches and executing the pirates were both acts of purification for the community.[00:03:00]
[00:03:01] Josh Hutchinson: Katherine Howe is the best selling author of The Physic Book of Deliverance Dane, The Daughters of Temperance Hobbs, Conversion, The House of Velvet and Glass, and The Appearance of Annie Van Sinderen. She is editor of the Penguin Book of Witches and, coming soon, the Penguin Book of Pirates.
[00:03:21] Josh Hutchinson: She coauthored Astor: The Rise and Fall of an American Fortune and Vanderbilt: The Rise and Fall of an American Dynasty with Anderson Cooper.
[00:03:32] Katherine Howe: Chapter One, Boston, June 1726. I don't know what made me determined to go to the hanging. I'd always made a point of avoiding them. I resisted the entreaties of my friends who wanted to be in amongst the throngs of onlookers, ears pricked for the last words and the pious advice of the soon to be damned. Of course, I'd always been curious. One cannot help but wonder about the face of one condemned, [00:04:00] to see his carriage toward the crowd and himself, to feel the swelling cheers and cries of all the townsfolk, to hear the crack of the felon's neck snapped like a chicken's. I wondered if their eyes were open or closed when their moment came.
[00:04:14] Katherine Howe: What happens in the instant in between being a living, breathing creature, trembling with needs and wants and fears, and being an empty sack of flesh and bone? Is it the same for an old woman alone in her bed with the covers pulled up tight as it is for a man mounting the scaffold before God and everyone? Does an unearthly light of heaven attained shine upon the greasy strings of their hair if they have confessed and repented? Everyone repents at the end, or so I've been told. I'd heard the moment of public death described often enough, usually by someone with a hand around a glass, but I'd always been of too delicate a nature to see for myself.
[00:04:54] Katherine Howe: I didn't like to drown kittens or stomp trembled whiskered mice, and as often as not found a way to avoid such grim [00:05:00] chores on the occasion Mrs. Tomlinson chose to impose them on me. I even crossed the street from dogs lying dead in the gutter. But something about William Fly was different. I made up my mind that I would go.
[00:05:15] Josh Hutchinson: Such a good introduction. That hook just grabbed me when I was reading it. So starting with the execution, that was quite a way, quite a bang right at the beginning.
[00:05:29] Katherine Howe: Why mess around? One of the things that I enjoyed about working on this book, because it's set in 1726, it opens at a real event. So the hanging of William Fly was a real thing that happened. William Fly led a short-lived mutiny and went briefly pirating off of Cape Hatteras, and then he trusted a guy to take him to, I think it was Martha's Vineyard for water with, he had renamed his boat the Thames Revenge, which is such a great pirate name, but the guy he trusted [00:06:00] to pilot him fooled him and led him off the coast of Boston, which of course now as a sailor in Massachusetts, I find myself wondering like going on the outside of Cape Cod, which is how you have to go to get from Martha's Vineyard, like all the way around and get back to Boston, it's actually like a really long trip. It's like really way out of their way because there was no Cape Cod canal to cut through. So that must have been, William Fly must have been a pretty naive leader, unfortunately.
[00:06:24] Katherine Howe: But what happened was William Fly's public trial and gibbeting. So William Fly is tried and he's found guilty and he's not just hanged in front of everyone, but he's gibbeted. And what that means is that his body, after he is dead, it hanged in chains in a public place for everybody to see. And so he was gibbeted on a little rock, one of the Boston Harbor islands called Nix's Mate, and just left there to rot. And the historian Marcus Rediker has pointed out that is a that practice of publicly [00:07:00] displaying the mutilated bodies of people convicted of piracy was a, was like a conscious act of terror by the state. The state was trying to terrorize people out of thinking of turning to piracy.
[00:07:12] Katherine Howe: And it's so interesting to me because, of course, this is so most people who know my fiction associate me with Salem witch trial stories or Salem stories. And of course, this is a generation later, because Salem is 1692 and William Fly is 1726. But the idea of using public execution as a mode of terror is still very much in play. And interestingly enough, too, one of the theologians who presided over William Fly's trial was Cotton Mather himself. He was much more famous by the time the 1720s rolled around, and at the beginning of the story, in A True Account, we actually talk a little bit about his fame, that people respond to him like, like he's a celebrity, they freak out when they see him in the street.
[00:07:56] Katherine Howe: And Hannah Masury, is bound out to service in a [00:08:00] real tavern, Ship Tavern is a real place, at the foot of Clark Wharf, which is a real wharf, one of the longest, most major wharfs in pre-revolutionary Boston. And so I imagine her mistress, Mrs. Tomlinson, as being very much enthralled to Cotton Mather, very much like touched by his fame and the proximity of his fame.
[00:08:20] Katherine Howe: And so at one point, I even have Hannah remark to herself that she grew up in Beverly, which is a town close to Salem, which is on the water, a seafaring town, and that she grew up close to where Cotton Mather had driven the devils out of Salem a generation before, before she was born, which seems impossible to her, as impossible as driving fairies out of a hole in the ground, because public thinking about witchcraft had changed by the 1720s, but not completely. Hannah is still living in this sort of just post-Calvinist world and much of her internal monologue or the way that she understands the world is inflected by [00:09:00] Christianity because of the moment in which she's living, even though she herself is living a very, what we might term, unchristian life.
[00:09:09] Josh Hutchinson: As you mentioned, you're known for writing about Salem Witch Trials. What drew you away from that to write about pirates?
[00:09:18] Katherine Howe: I think, I think everyone is secretly attracted to pirates. Maybe that's a sweeping generalization, but maybe it was partly having spent so much time thinking about the world of very early European-settled, English-settled Massachusetts, and what an incredibly strict and hierarchical culture that was. And trying to imagine ways that people chafed under that structure or bucked that structure a little bit. And if Salem was, if the Salem Witch Crisis was one example of when regular people are at the center of the story, which is so a little bit unusual. So [00:10:00] much of our history is so called great man history where you talk about leaders or kings or queens or people who are in charge. And I've never been particularly interested by the people who are in charge. I'm much more interested by the people who are just trying to make their way in the world who are regular people.
[00:10:15] Katherine Howe: And so another instance of regular people in extraordinary circumstances is piracy. So often pirates didn't plan to be pirates, or they turned to piracy through mutiny or, as William Fly did, through what they called hard usage, and especially at a time when impressment was such a big part of the British Navy. You could be snatched away from everything that you knew in your life and thrown into a ship with no desire to ever leave the land and have your freedom taken away. And so I was interested by piracy, like the golden age of piracy, which kind of wound down in the 1720s, but stretched broadly from the 1680s to the 1720s, the same period [00:11:00] as the period of the witch trials in North America.
[00:11:02] Katherine Howe: And also it is an example of the collision between the most radical forms of freedom and the most radical forms of unfreedom. Because so much golden age piracy was inextricably bound up with the money to be made in the transatlantic slave trade, and one of the reasons that it was so important to the state to strike terror into the hearts of mariners of the threat of being tried as pirates was because of the economic risks that they posed to this very wealthy triangle trade between the Caribbean and the North American colonies and Great Britain.
[00:11:40] Katherine Howe: And so I was, I just was very drawn to the idea of here are people in extreme circumstances, under extreme forms of constraint, or sometimes forced servitude, and who throw off those constraints, often using violence and often, with no hope of success, [00:12:00] really, depending on how we define success.
[00:12:03] Katherine Howe: So I was just very, I was very moved by it, and also very moved by, the story of witchcraft is so much a story about women in extreme circumstances, and typically piracy is a story of men in extreme circumstances, but not always. There are a couple of very famous examples of women who disguised themselves as men and went pirating, and I was very moved by that possibility and what that might look like and how that might feel.
[00:12:34] Katherine Howe: And so I have Hannah Masury at the beginning of her story, she gets a sort of traditional call to adventure, as a way of structuring the story, where she's working, she's in her late teens, we never really learn exactly how old she is. She's bound out to service, which is not unusual for this time period. In fact, Abigail Williams, famously, who kicked off the Salem Witch Panic, who was 11 years old and was bound out to service.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Katherine Howe: And so Hannah ends up getting tangled up in the events around the trial of William Fly and winds up having to flee for her life in a way that she does that, because the only way in or out of Boston, pre-revolutionary Boston at this time, was by the Neck, which is a long, skinny stretch of land. So Boston at the time was this, was a peninsula. And it was very easy to choke off access to that peninsula. The only way that Hannah could escape, people are trying to hunt her down. I don't want to give away too much about why they're trying to hunt her down. They're trying to hunt her down, and so the only way she can flee is over the water. And so she disguises herself and ships out on what she thinks is a fruit packet down for the Azores. And then her adventure goes in a pretty wildly unexpected direction.
[00:13:47] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, quite a lot of wildly unexpected directions. Yeah, you keep us guessing what's going to happen next.
[00:13:56] Katherine Howe: Yeah, I don't want to give too many twists away, but I've been telling, when [00:14:00] people ask me about this story, I've been telling people it's a little bit like Treasure Island meets Gone Girl. And and there are people who are fans of pirate fiction, anyone who's read Treasure Island is going to see a couple of little winks here and there, narrative winks or things that are slightly familiar seeming but that is of course like the ultimate pirate story, which is also set in the 17, I've never learned the specific year, but sometime in the 1700s, but was written in the 19th century.
[00:14:29] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's what got me interested in pirates, Treasure Island. Read that very early.
[00:14:36] Katherine Howe: Yeah we're, I have a young son and I've been reading Treasure Island to him at night for some weeks now. And as you can imagine, we're a completely normal family. So his playhouse in our garden has a pirate flag on it. It has a sign hanging from it that says the Admiral Benbow Inn, which is where the action starts in Treasure Island, and a bill of fare hanging from a nearby tree. And my son likes to demand kid rum. Everything's completely [00:15:00] normal in my family. Kid rum is water, I hasten to add.
[00:15:04] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, okay.
[00:15:05] Katherine Howe: Not to worry. That's a worry.
[00:15:08] Josh Hutchinson: I was thinking it was a Juicy Juice or something.
[00:15:10] Katherine Howe: no. He gets very frustrated when other kids want to play pirates, but they don't know all the weird, obscure plot points of Treasure Island. He's no, you have to be the blind man.
[00:15:19] Katherine Howe: He's, very controlling. Anyway,
[00:15:22] Josh Hutchinson: That's adorable.
[00:15:23] Sarah Jack: It is. And he'll share his love for the story with his peers. Yeah.
[00:15:28] Katherine Howe: Whether they want him to or not.
[00:15:33] Sarah Jack: How has your love for sailing influenced your writing about seafaring?
[00:15:37] Katherine Howe: I think certainly my, I sail a lot in my free time. It's my only hobby, really. And it was inevitable that I would want to write a seafaring story, even though they're perhaps a little bit out of fashion these days, but there's something so unique about being at the mercy of the elements so completely. I mean, there are many elements of [00:16:00] seafaring that are attractive from a fiction perspective. One is that it is this self-contained world, if we're talking about the Age of Sail. You're living within this community in very close quarters. of a really profound intimacy can form, but even within that intimacy there is rigid hierarchies and structures and lines of authority and lines of command.
[00:16:22] Katherine Howe: There's also an incredible technicality to it that I find interesting, and especially imagining someone like Hannah, who has no background in seafaring at all, suddenly finding herself in this universe of ropes, where every rope has a specific name and a specific purpose, and the technical aspects of it, and how much knowledge there is to acquire in order to be able to effectively make a sailing ship go has was interesting to me from a narrative perspective.
[00:16:52] Katherine Howe: And also I think there's the idea of exploration, the idea of we now live in this world of instant discovery. If I want to [00:17:00] see what a picture of New Guinea looks like, all I have to do is type it into my phone. But the idea of these undiscovered worlds or uncharted worlds, you know maps that say 'here there be monsters,' and the idea of sailing into the unknown is for me, still a very romantic idea and something that I find interesting to think about. And over the course of the story in A True Account, we encounter many different characters who are all trying to find a path towards their own self-determination. If anything, I think that is the theme of the book. There’s Hannah, obviously, who’s trying to find her own route to freedom, if you will.
[00:17:42] Katherine Howe: Many of the pirate characters that she encounters are themselves actually seizing their own authority and freedom for themselves. And something about the freedom and the rebellion of it has always been very attractive to me.
[00:17:57] Katherine Howe: And also just speaking [00:18:00] personally, I think there are only two times in my life when I'm really fully present. And both of those times, one, one is when I'm writing, if I'm really engaged in what I'm writing and I'm completely involved in it. And then the other is when I'm sailing, when I'm underway, because it is so necessary to completely focus your attention on what you're doing, on what the surroundings are, on what's going to happen next.
[00:18:25] Katherine Howe: There's no room for distraction. There's no room for worrying about something else. There's no room for preoccupation. And for someone like me who lives in the head so much all the time, that is an incredibly liberating sensation. And so my mind, I wanted to try to explore in fiction, what that sensation can be like, and what that distinctly weird world is like as well.
[00:18:52] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah you built the world so excellently. All of those details that you put in, [00:19:00] and I loved learning the the terminology that you were just talking about, the names of the ropes, the mizzenmast, and this and that, and they're so good.
[00:19:11] Katherine Howe: Thanks. And I, believe it or not, I don't even get all that technical. If you read Patrick O'Brien, it's simply staggering how much, he's the guy who wrote Master and Commander, simply staggering the level of detail that he's able to access. But having Hannah come into a sailing world, naive, means that I can get away without actually weighing it down with a whole lot of jargon.
[00:19:35] Katherine Howe: But I also enjoy, I think there's so many turns of phrase and idioms that we use in English that are derived from seafaring, some of which we know in an abstract way, but many of which I think we don't know. Three sheets to the wind for being drunk is a great one, or armed to the teeth means carrying a knife in your mouth because you're about to board somebody else and you need to bring your arms with you. I really enjoyed unearthing some of [00:20:00] those turns of phrase that we still have this nautical discourse that we're not even aware that we use.
[00:20:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, really all of that, the rich detail, really helped bring the world to life. It was like you're there experiencing all the senses. Job well done.
[00:20:18] Katherine Howe: Thank you very much. But not too jargony, right? I hope not.
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: No I was able to follow and I think I've been on boats like twice and they've been like speedboats at lakes.
[00:20:31] Josh Hutchinson: Uh,

[00:20:33] Katherine Howe: Glad to hear that, that it worked okay for you, Josh.
[00:20:36] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, my brother is in the Navy and he knows a lot about naval history, so I'm going to send him a copy of the book and see what he thinks of it. I think he'll get a kick out of it like I did.
[00:20:50] Katherine Howe: I hope so.
[00:20:52] Sarah Jack: And it allowed for us to really, as you said, experience her introduction to what she was going to [00:21:00] have to do to cope on that vessel and work. And As you can even hear in the very introduction of your book, you take us right into who Hannah Masury is. We start to learn the details about her. Who is Hannah?
[00:21:17] Katherine Howe: So Hannah Masury is, in the book, she's in her late teens. She was born in Beverly, Massachusetts, but she doesn't really remember any of her early childhood, because from when she was very small, she, it's hazy what her family situation was, but it's clear that wherever she was living, she, her parents couldn't afford to keep her, which was not unusual at that time.
[00:21:42] Katherine Howe: And so she's given to a distant relative of her mother's, and she doesn't remember if it's an aunt or a cousin, it's some kinswoman, some like long, long distance family member named Mrs. Tomlinson, who runs this inn, Ship Tavern. And Mrs. Tomlinson we understand has 13 kids, and it's a [00:22:00] boisterous kind of place.
[00:22:01] Katherine Howe: And Ship Tavern, most of their customers are Men who are sailors, who have just come rolling into town and need a place to stay, and not unlike Treasure Island, which opens in an inn, so the first, the character in Treasure Island is Jim Hawkins, and he is working in the Admiral Benbow Inn, and so I had Hannah begin her working life in a seafaring inn, which is when she first starts to encounter some of the pirate life, and similarly to early scenes, for example, in Moby Dick, you know, There's a lot of scenes there opening in where Ishmael meets Queequeg because they have to share a bunk. Because in many of these places it was very crowded and you would have to sleep in shifts or sleep two sailors to a bed head to foot or things like that.
[00:22:44] Katherine Howe: So one thing I wanted to explore a bit was the kind of, once again, I think when we look at the past we have a tendency to look at the way people with wealth lived. And it's partly because the material culture of people with wealth was more likely to [00:23:00] survive. We have a greater picture, we have a greater imagination of what a grand house might be like. House museums tend to preserve a higher class level of living. And I wanted to try to explore what was a more common way of living in around 1726.
[00:23:17] Katherine Howe: And so Hannah's days were organized by her work. She's a girl of all work. She has to wait at tables and scrub things and clean things and empty the chamber pots and do all those nasty things that she wouldn't want to do. But she also has friends who are like her. She has like girls that she hangs out with who are in similar circumstances.
[00:23:37] Katherine Howe: And early on she, she sneaks out of the inn after her mistress has told her she can't go to William Fly's hanging. She had seen them at church, because the pirates had been brought to church to be preached at by Cotton Mather, who was trying to bring them back publicly to repent. There are sins of swearing and whoring and disobedience.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Katherine Howe: And so it was, there was really in this time period, a unified perspective between religious leadership and government leadership to try to ensure compliance and obedience. And one of the things that I found so moving and striking about it was that in, in William Fly, Hannah sees someone who refuses to comply, who refuses to bend to what authority demands of him.
[00:24:29] Katherine Howe: And that is the moment that invites her own refusal of the circumstances in which she's living. And as she goes on her adventure, she ends up having to disguise herself as a boy, as a cabin boy, to go on this ship. And there are ways that I deal with objections, like why it might seem difficult for a girl to make it like she was a boy on in this time period, but I think it's actually quite credible, the more you think about it, the more you know about what the body would have been like after a [00:25:00] lifetime of work and after a lifetime of insufficient nourishment and things like that. And so we watch her come into herself or come into being as. As the more time she spends on the fruit packet, which we think is called the Reporter, but then is revealed to have actually been a ship called the Fancy, we watch her come into herself. She starts to learn what she's doing. She starts to learn her way around. She does things that she would never have imagined herself doing. At the beginning of the story, we see her steal a mug from a drunk person who is in her tavern, who drives her crazy. And at one point, that's the worst crime she's ever committed in her life. And then, within a few months, she committed crimes she never thought that she could possibly have imagined.
[00:25:45] Katherine Howe: And so one thing that I liked thinking about with Hannah was, not that she's proud of everything that she's done. She's still a moral being. But it's also an examination of what happens to our moral systems based on the circumstances in which we [00:26:00] find ourselves. In some context, morality is a luxury. And so I wanted to look at what it would be like, not to write an anti hero exactly, but to write someone who does things that we personally might find horrifying or objectionable, but to write it in such a way that we not only understand why she does them, but actually sympathize with her choices that she's made. I'm being a little bit deliberately vague, because I don't wanna give too many things away. And in the end, I also don't wanna give away the matter of what happens in the end.
[00:26:33] Katherine Howe: But suffice it to say, I also have fun with the pirate tropes. There's definitely a parrot, there's definitely a guy with one leg, there's definitely treasure, because you can't have a pirate story without a parrot, you've got one leg, and treasure.
[00:26:47] Katherine Howe: And one of the other things that is fun for me in this book, in A True Account and which you can see in the title, A True Account: Hannah Masury's Sojourn Amongst the Pirates, Written by Herself, is the question of what is true?[00:27:00] Can something be emotionally true, but factually false? What does it mean to have a relationship between truth and fiction?
[00:27:08] Katherine Howe: And there's an ongoing debate about authorship and and authority, and who is writing what in the course of this story, and who is reading what in the course of this story. I get a little bit meta, but hopefully not in an exhausting kind of way. But as someone who is a historian who writes fiction, these are issues that I think about all the time, especially knitting together things that really happen, like William Fly's trial, I actually take pretty much verbatim from the trial transcripts. So all the discourse that happens on when William Fly is hanged, I didn't make it up. It's what people actually said. And Hannah herself is based on some historical antecedents, but she herself is a fictional character. So what does it mean if I'm braiding those things together?
[00:27:55] Josh Hutchinson: She's such a rich character, how hard has it been for [00:28:00] you to wait to be able to introduce her to the world?
[00:28:04] Katherine Howe: I'm very, I feel very close to Hannah. I think I'm more emotionally involved with her than I have been with a lot of my protagonists. I'm still very emotionally involved with the protagonist in my first novel, Connie Goodwin, because I think it's not unusual to feel very close to your protagonist in your first novel and because she was so personal to me, but I feel very emotionally involved with Hannah. I feel protective of her, maybe because she's younger than me, by a lot actually now. But at the same time, I feel proud of her, and, and so I'm excited for people to meet her. I'm curious. I'm very curious what people are going to think. Also cause it's not usual for me to write someone who does despicable things, and Hannah definitely does some despicable things. But at the same time I feel, I don't know, proud of her. Is that the right word? I don't even know. It's a little unusual for me to still be as [00:29:00] emotionally bound up with a fictional character.
[00:29:04] Katherine Howe: It's a shame to say that you play favorites with your protagonists, but right now I'm definitely feeling, I'm very, I'm treasuring Hannah a little bit right now.
[00:29:12] Sarah Jack: What you did with presenting her and bringing us along and what she was experiencing is incredible. Even, even when she was like needing to rest, you like felt it with her. Is she going to get enough hours to recuperate? So I can see how you would feel so proud of her. As a reader, and you start to feel like, oh, maybe she's your friend, or you want her to be your friend. You want to know her more and more. So when she takes care of things, does things to move forward and take care of yourself, you're like, it's a role model in a way for determination and moving forward.
[00:29:54] Katherine Howe: Thank you. One thing that also comes up in this book, and a lot of my fiction [00:30:00] deals with the ways that gender roles constrain or enable things that we're able to do, that we're expected to do. And this book is a little bit unusual. A True Account is unusual in being pretty explicit about about gender roles, in part because Hannah makes such a conscious decision to disguise herself. She assumes a different identity, and that identity is of a different gender.
[00:30:25] Katherine Howe: And there's another character in the book, and I don't want to give it away, it's too much of a twist. There's another character in the book who has a similar kind of fraught relationship with her own gender, with her own sexuality, at a different moment in time.
[00:30:39] Katherine Howe: And so I wanted it to be a way for the story to talk about a different perspective on the kinds of strictures that are in place, historically, but I think in the present too, we're living through this really interesting moment where so many young people are rethinking what gender can mean and what it [00:31:00] should mean and what they want it to mean and taking control of it for themselves.
[00:31:04] Katherine Howe: And in some ways, I was looking for a historical lens through which to think through some of those same kinds of questions. And, so it's inevitably different and historically grounded and rooted in sources, but it is trying to be part of that conversation. I think I've been thinking a lot about gender roles throughout my fiction writing career. But this is a another way of looking at it, as well.
[00:31:29] Josh Hutchinson: You alluded to another character. As in your other works, this is a dual timeline narrative. What's the relationship of each timeline to the other? How do they, are they echoes of the same story?
[00:31:49] Katherine Howe: Yeah, again, I don't want to give too much away, but there is a mystery that is, that surrounds Hannah's story. And there is a [00:32:00] character who is looking at Hannah's story and is trying to figure out whether it is a true account or not. And which is one reason I was so wedded to the title, A True Account, because it is insisting on its own truth.
[00:32:13] Katherine Howe: And yet anything that is trying to insist on its own truth, I think you should automatically question whether or not it is true. And so there is a kind of a framing story. And in a similar way to Hannah looking at William Fly and taking him as an inspiration for a change that she makes in her life, I have a character who's looking at Hannah and who ends up taking some of Hannah into herself and thinking about ways that it can change what her life is going to look like. And again, I don't wanna give it too much away, 'cause there's a, there is a little bit of a twist involved. There is a relationship between those two.
[00:32:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I definitely don't want to give away the ending, so we won't even go within 50 miles of that. I'll just say that it's such a [00:33:00] good ending. Readers will be pleased with that. Take care in the way you wrap things up.
[00:33:07] Katherine Howe: Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, as usual, there are a couple of like local nonprofits I should probably like warn are in this book. I don't think the Beverly Historical Society has any idea that they're mentioned in this book, I should probably tell them as a courtesy.
[00:33:22] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yeah, and maybe they'll get some questions in there. Can we see Hannah's book?
[00:33:27] Josh Hutchinson: In addition to the dual timelines, you also do an artful job of weaving a lot of different story threads through. You've got people on a sort of a quest for independence and freedom, but there's the pirating that happens and there's other layers.
[00:33:50] Katherine Howe: One, one major character that Hannah meets, so Hannah ends up meeting some real people and some fictional people. One of the real people that Hannah meets is a guy named [00:34:00] Edward Low, who was one of, who was a real person who was based for a time in Boston in this period, and he was a real pirate, and he was a famously cruel one. He was the guy who, one of the best known kind of first person accounts of piracy in this period was actually written by a Marbleheader named Philip Ashton, who was a fisherman on the Grand Banks and who was captured by Ned Low and escaped. He ran away from him in an island in the Gulf of Honduras and ended up having to live on his own on an island before he hitched a ride home on a ship that was based out of Salem.
[00:34:37] Katherine Howe: And so we learn a lot about Ned Low's cruelty, and we get a lot of the details about life on board a pirate ship come from some of those sources. From that, we actually learned that Ned Low had a soft spot for dogs. That was true. And we learned that he refused to have married men in his crew, the [00:35:00] nominal reason being that that he felt that someone should be home with their family if they had a family, but practically, as Hannah comes to think to herself, that's, there's a less noble interpretation of it, and that is that somebody who is married has a reason not to fight, if they have something else to live for, they're not going to fight quite as hard. There are a couple of ways you can interpret Ned Lowe's perspective in that regard. So she meets Ned Lowe, and some of the details about pirating come from the truth of what happened with Ned Low and some of his raidings.
[00:35:34] Katherine Howe: And there's another character she meets who is a fictional character, but who is based on fact, and that character is a man named Seneca, who is a little bit older than Hannah, he's in his early twenties. And Seneca we gradually realize is a self-liberating person. He, we never really learn any of his backstory, but we do learn that he liberated himself from bondage and went pirating, and there are actually several examples of [00:36:00] men who took it upon themselves to flee a life in bondage and to take to the high seas in doing that.
[00:36:07] Katherine Howe: And in fact, one of the things that was so interesting to me in reading primary sources of piracy was the ways that there are so many more pirates of color than he would anticipate. In fact one of the most notorious North American pirates was Blackbeard, who was active in the Carolinas. And when he was finally taken off the coast of, I think it was Hatteras. When he was finally taken, half the crew who was with him were men of color. And in fact, there was a guy who was all set to, he was like, with, he had a flint and he was all set to blow up the gunpowder magazine and destroy the entire ship and himself out of loyalty to Blackbeard. And he was talked out of it by a guy who was like imprisoned nearby, "no, don't do it."
[00:36:50] Katherine Howe: And and it's interesting to me, because I think there's some ways in which pirates of color get overwritten if you look at a lot of pop culture, Pirates [00:37:00] of the Caribbean or whatever, every, everybody is white, but that's just not what it looked like. One of the things that was really interesting to me was to think about the way that pirate crews tended to be these mostly men of like of no country in a way, and so the crew that Hannah ends up joining are from all over the place. One of the characters that she deals with is a Spanish Creole from, who had lived in Louisiana and speaks French. One of the guys, originally from Marblehead, but it's been a lot of his time in St. Petersburg, because that's where he had ended up traveling. There, there were men from the west coast of Africa. There are men from the Caribbean. There are men who are native. There are men who are all different kinds of people. And so the thing that binds them all together is their will to self determination and perhaps a certain degree of brutality.
[00:37:49] Katherine Howe: But I was and still am very interested in the ocean as its own nation, and so one argument that the novel, that A True Account makes is [00:38:00] that it's like a different model of citizenship, in a way, that you are no longer bound to wherever you happen to have been born or even where you happen to have spent most of your time on land. You're bound to the articles you pledge yourself to live under, and you're bound to your shipmates.
[00:38:18] Katherine Howe: And one of the terms of art that I liked about piracy is the way that the collective of pirates would be called the people. The people choose this, the people elect the captain by popular acclaim, the people do this, people do that. And especially given this time period, in the early part of the 18th century, that idea of the people, of the polis, is such a unique and intoxicating idea, such a proto democratic idea, almost, that it's something that I was really interested to explore.
[00:38:49] Katherine Howe: And so Seneca ends up. We discovered that Seneca has named himself because he has cast off the name that was foisted upon him, and no one's allowed to use it. And so he has chosen [00:39:00] the name of a philosopher for himself, a Stoic, and when we first meet him, or when Hannah first meets him, she doesn't know what a philosopher is.
[00:39:08] Katherine Howe: And so I liked the idea. It was important to me to have a main character who was a person of color, who was a self liberating person, because that is a part of the history of piracy that I feel like hasn't been really sufficiently explored.
[00:39:23] Josh Hutchinson: The articles and the structure of how they organize themselves on the ship was, it's so radically different than what Hannah grew up with where she's got Mrs. Tomlinson being the authority figure, but then beyond Mrs. Tomlinson, there's the ministers and the magistrates.
[00:39:45] Katherine Howe: Everybody outranks Hannah in Boston in 1726. And so the moment that she discovers that when she's on a pirate ship, they all put their, they all sign the articles, which are loosely based, I think, on the [00:40:00] articles of war. But it is a list of rules that really existed that spelled out their obligations to each other, who the officers were and how much everyone would be paid, how much people would be paid in the event of their being maimed or otherwise hurt and offers specific outlined bonuses. So when she discovers that there's a special bonus, you get to choose the best arms on board if you are the first person to spot a prize that you end up taking. It's the first time that Hannah has ever really been in an incentive labor relationship, that where she actually has an incentive to, to apply herself and do what she's doing.
[00:40:38] Katherine Howe: And she throws herself into it very quickly. And we actually see how she is able to rise a little bit in the ranks from just being like a regular crew member to being rated able. Being an able seaman gives her like a greater sense of authority and purposefulness and belonging.
[00:40:57] Sarah Jack: When I read your [00:41:00] articles, I thought how enjoyable that must have been for you to create. And then I just, I felt like I was taking all your bait through the story. And the article that jumped out to me... You know, a few sentences after the articles, here you have Hannah grabbing onto that article. And I had already written a note for myself. Oh, this is my favorite one. We saw that as her in, know, one of her ends, one of her ways to get traction to her next step. So I really loved the articles. I loved picking one and then finding that I was following the crumbs. I was like, oh man.
[00:41:40] Katherine Howe: I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. Hannah has freakish farsightedness, which is actually something that that I've given her for myself. There's not a whole lot of myself personally in Hannah, but I've always been farsighted. And particularly in one eye more than the others, which makes this bad for ball sports. So don't expect to throw a ball at me and have [00:42:00] me actually catch it. But can be handy when you're looking for something on the horizon.
[00:42:05] Katherine Howe: I will also mention as you can imagine, I did a lot of research for A True Account. And the fruit of that research, besides the novel itself, is that in February, I'm releasing an edited volume, The Penguin Book of Pirates for Penguin Classics. And it's going to be a primary source reader, basically like The Penguin Book of Witches.
[00:42:26] Katherine Howe: And it will include a lot of the original source materials that I read to fuel my imagination for a true account and for Hannah's adventure. And it starts in the 1500s and goes up through the Amistad, the case of the Amistad, which is in the 19th century, and I'm pretty excited for people to read that book. I think it's going to be really fun. And it also includes two excerpts from the most widespread fictional accounts of [00:43:00] pirates. One thing that's interesting to me, both as a historian, but also as obviously as a fiction writer is the way that, especially for something like piracy, the way that myth and fact can sometimes blur a little bit.
[00:43:13] Katherine Howe: So there are a few examples in The Penguin Book of Pirates that are not factual, but were so widely circulated that people mistook them for fact. And then it includes two excerpts, one from Peter and Wendy, the novel version of Peter Pan, which talks about Captain Hook. And the other is 'What I Heard in the Apple Barrel,' the chapter from Treasure Island where Jim learns that Long John Silver is actually the leader of a secret pirate crew.
[00:43:44] Katherine Howe: And it was fun to do those both, because those are both pirate stories we all know so intently, they're dramatized so much. And yet have you actually really gone back and really read them? For instance, Captain Hook [00:44:00] in Peter and Wendy, which is from 1911, we learned that he was a graduate of Eton.
[00:44:05] Katherine Howe: And so like a lot of Captain Hook's ridiculousness, like you picture him, this sort of Disney restoration flowing wig and then crazy, the crazy coat and everything. But his foppishness derives from an embedded class critique in Peter and Wendy beyond anything else.
[00:44:22] Katherine Howe: Or it's also interesting to me that there is actually an allusion in Peter and Wendy. Hook's nickname is Barbecue, or they talk about him going up against a pirate named Barbecue, and they're actually alluding to Long John Silver in Treasure Island. So they're like origin point, because Long John Silver's nickname is Barbecue in Treasure Island. So there is this intertextual aspect of even classic pirate lore, and that extends even into examples of actual piracy itself, because the generation of pirates who were active at the beginning of the 18th century, [00:45:00] like Edward Low or Blackbeard or some of these other guys that we know. They're actually a generation later then the first golden age generation of pirates from the 1680s, 1690s. So the guys who go pirating in the 1720s and teens have been hearing stories about the guys who were pirating in the 1680s and 1690s. So there's already this like meta aspect of even actual piracy.
[00:45:26] Katherine Howe: And in fact, one of the, one of the guys who's my favorite is he was the guy who was dramatized in Our Flag Means Death. So one of the guys who was an active pirate in Bermuda, I think it was, in the 1710s and 1720s, was a guy named Stede Bonnet, and Stede Bonnet is fascinating, because whereas usually men go pirating out of necessity or a desperation, Stede Bonnet is rich and decides he just feels like going pirating. He gets out a ship, he hires the crew, [00:46:00] he consciously chooses to leave his life as a wealthy plantation owner and go raiding on the high seas. And he likes to wear all red and red feathers, and there's this very self aware aspect to it that I thought was really, it was really fascinating. So that's one of the reasons that the story in a true account is very much engaged with questions of authorship and truth and fiction and the relationship between those things and what is, what counts as a trustworthy source when we're talking about piracy.
[00:46:37] Sarah Jack: What you do with your writing, your fiction writing, shows the power of historical fiction and why historical characters and fictional character representations of historical characters are so important.
[00:46:52] Katherine Howe: Thank you very much. I'm glad that you think so. I have a sort of a different approach to historical fiction, but I think it's mainly, I think it's largely rooted in being an [00:47:00] Americanist and being, as I said before, particularly interested in the kinds of stories or the kinds of histories that are largely overwritten by the archive or are harder to excavate from the archive, stories about regular people, stories about people who are not literate or are not otherwise remembered, people who maybe have dramatic and memorable lives, but maybe those lives are not written in, historical annals. And so I think that's my perspective as a historical fiction author.
[00:47:35] Katherine Howe: I'm not going to be writing any regency romances, I'm afraid. Although I do enjoy them, they are quite fun, but there's not going to be any court intrigue and no regency romance in my wheelhouse.

[00:47:48] Katherine Howe: Piracy, yes. Riots, absolutely.
[00:47:54] Josh Hutchinson: oh, wonderful, yeah,
[00:47:57] Sarah Jack: Yes.
[00:47:58] Katherine Howe: 100%.[00:48:00]
[00:48:01] Josh Hutchinson: I'm there for that,
[00:48:02] Katherine Howe: Yeah,
[00:48:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah I wanted to know if we could talk about Hannah's sexuality,
[00:48:08] Katherine Howe: Sure. Yeah,
[00:48:10] Josh Hutchinson: because You've mentioned a lot of the important themes in this story, but one of those is her quest for finding herself, and that's revealed partly through her sexuality.
[00:48:23] Katherine Howe: That's true. And yeah, writing Hannah as an explicitly sexual being, I'm, I tend to be a prude. And most of my fiction is very PG or PG 13. I tend to like, not have romantic scenes that much just because I don't think I'm very good at them. They're actually really hard to do well.
[00:48:43] Katherine Howe: And so Hannah is, for me, is a little bit of a departure in that she is so explicitly a sexual being. And one of the questions that I wanted to raise in thinking about her was, I think was the extent to which [00:49:00] she, because she operates because of her class status and because of her gender, she operates in a tense point between, on the one hand, she could be seen as sexually vulnerable, right? And there are moments in the course of the story where we see a picture of that vulnerability.
[00:49:22] Katherine Howe: Like at one point, she's, she's coming home from having sneaked off with her friends to watch William Fly's hanging, and she's on her way home and she doesn't want to go back to the inn because she's going to get in trouble for having sneaked out. And so she's hanging out in the street for a while by herself, but it's nighttime. But then she starts to attract attention because she is a young woman alone at night in the street, and she has to, and nothing happens in that moment, but I wanted to, us to be aware of what that choice would suggest about her.
[00:49:52] Katherine Howe: We don't get a full picture of, of her life, her tavern life, as she puts it. But, she, there is a [00:50:00] fluidity to her sexuality, also. She has a quasi-romantic relationship with one of her female friends. And she gives us to understand that she'll let people stop in her hayloft with her, but that it's her decision.
[00:50:15] Katherine Howe: And so on the one hand, she, within the context of her time, she is morally, like debased is too strong of a word, but she's not married. She is not a virgin. She is a sexual person, despite the fact that she's young and she's not married and she lives in this Calvinist, just post-Calvinist moment.
[00:50:37] Katherine Howe: But at the same time, I wanted to explore Hannah, the way that Hannah takes what could be a vulnerability and turns it into a source of power for her, a source of power, also a source of pleasure, because Hannah, in, in her life has so little of her own, right? So little of her own that she owns or that she can enjoy or that she can rely on or that [00:51:00] she can count on.
[00:51:00] Katherine Howe: She has no leisure to speak of. She has no time. She has no goods. She has very little comfort, but sexuality is a way that lots of people can find comfort or can find pleasure or can find freedom. And so I wanted to explore that a bit, and that comes into play in the pirate crew, as well.
[00:51:22] Katherine Howe: Because of course there you would think with a young, sexed person, in a crew only of, of men, there's an obvious question to be asked there. And Hannah does ask that question. She addresses that question. She's here's how I made up my mind that I'm going to deal with that eventuality or that possibility. And so I'm intrigued that you wanted to, that you wanted to ask about her sexuality because it is, there's at least one sort of scene of Hannah's sexuality being deployed.
[00:51:53] Katherine Howe: And it's not gratuitous, I don't think. I think it is important because it advances the plot in a way that the [00:52:00] plot has to advance. And of course there's an added risk of her discovery. And so that, that is part of what is at stake in the deployment of her sexuality later on in the story.
[00:52:11] Katherine Howe: But I think that's something that, that we all have to decide as we are, especially when we are in our coming of age, as it were, coming into ourselves, whether that happens in our teens, whether that happens later in life. Sometimes, as there's another character in the story who comes into her own sexuality and the deployment of her sexuality. She's at a later point in her life. But for whatever reason, this is the moment when it is happening for her. And so I wanted to make that an issue for Hannah that she had to, it is another arena for her to decide how she wants her life to be lived and how she wants to assert control over her life.
[00:52:52] Josh Hutchinson: And I think between the two eras that you choose, they're times of great sexual suppression, [00:53:00] and she's taking her independence from that.
[00:53:03] Katherine Howe: Yeah, but sexual suppression of a different kind. One thing that's interesting to think about, talking of like the colonial period, on the one hand, it was a time of sexual suppression, but on the other hand, it was also a time of sexual frankness. You would have shared rooms like a married couple would have, a kid sleeping on a trundle bed next to them and a baby in the bed next to them, right there. They're not waiting until everyone's at school. You know what I mean? They're not like, they're not waiting for date night. That's not a thing that happens. Like there was a greater, you know, there were no bathrooms. You'd go off into the corner and you'd use the pot and whatever.
[00:53:39] Katherine Howe: There was a different relationship between bodies in the late 17th and into the early 18th century than we have now. And it's partly because of the way that space was at a premium. There was a different sense of what privacy could look like at that time. Which I think is something that we forget, especially in [00:54:00] thinking about the kind of moral strictures under which Calvinists and just post-Calvinists were living.
[00:54:06] Katherine Howe: There's a weird tension between those two facts. Like there's the fact of bodies in everyday life, and there's also the fact of this like incredibly heavy, overbearing Christianity informing every aspect of everyday life. And then in the other time period that we're talking about, which is 1930, that is a slightly different time when there were, I don't want to go into too much detail about it because I don't want to give too much away from that timeline.
[00:54:33] Katherine Howe: But, it was also a time of changing sexual mores a bit, after the 1920s and into 1930, they're like, like laws were changing around sexuality to some extent, and the way that gender was performed or policed, depending on who you were and where you were and what time you were, was changing to some degree but not entirely. So it's a very different time.
[00:54:56] Katherine Howe: But both of those times are actually quite different from the time we're living in right this minute, [00:55:00] which is another thing that I think is worth considering that, we, all of these historical moments are so contingent on so many different factors and so many different things. And so things that we would assume as natural in one time period would seem profoundly unnatural in another.
[00:55:18] Josh Hutchinson: And you use that issue of privacy on, in Hannah's life on the ship also, where she's in disguise and can't be found out, but she has to share a head with dozens of men.
[00:55:32] Katherine Howe: I know.
[00:55:33] Josh Hutchinson: yeah,
[00:55:33] Josh Hutchinson: that gets a little awkward for a moment.
[00:55:36] Katherine Howe: Yeah. It's a little, it's a little bit awkward. At one point we address the question of of like her body and whether or not her body would give her away. And so even though she was 17 she was starving. So she was starving, and she'd spent her entire life undernourished.
[00:55:52] Katherine Howe: So she would have been skinny. She would have been almost wiry. She would not have had any body fat. Without enough body [00:56:00] fat, she wouldn't, she may have even never started menstruating, right, even at 17. She would not have had breasts to speak of. She, her body would have still looked not like a child, but like a young youth. I think her body would have read very differently.
[00:56:17] Katherine Howe: And so one thing that we, that I suggest in the story is that particularly in a time period where costume or clothing choice was so rigidly determined that if you saw someone dressed in britches and a blouse or a waistcoat, the assumption would be that you were looking at a male gendered person.
[00:56:40] Katherine Howe: That there, there was no like, oh, I feel like wearing shorts today, option, like I'm speaking to you in t shirt and shorts today, I'm wearing the exact same thing that like a 12 year old boy would wear potentially, but that simply wasn't the case in the 1720s, and so thinking about Hannah's body, but also what that [00:57:00] body would have looked like, like the way that poverty and that time period etches itself in the body in some ways independent from sex, arguably.
[00:57:10] Katherine Howe: And so that is part of how Hannah is able to be so persuasive in her disguise. And in fact, at one point I have a scene in the book where someone is looking at lots of paintings on the wall of sailors, and a lot of them are boys. And the character who's looking at them is starting, for the first time, thinks, oh, wait a minute. Are they boys? I don't know. Maybe they're not like part of it is, part of it is that you see what you expect to see.
[00:57:37] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I really enjoyed the lessons that you give about that in this story, throughout the story. I think that right now our society is grappling with that, why do we have to expect a specific, defined person. The youth and others are [00:58:00] teaching You can't count on that.
[00:58:03] Katherine Howe: Yeah. We're living through a really fascinating and exciting moment. And it's, I enjoy grappling with some of those questions in the way that I would being a, you know, a historian and a historical fiction person grappling with it and in a historically-informed way.
[00:58:20] Sarah Jack: Do we have time to talk about execution?
[00:58:22] Katherine Howe: We always have time to talk about execution. Are you kidding?
[00:58:25] Sarah Jack: I really like the parallel between the hangings of the pirates in Boston, and then you've got how the crews handle punishment.
[00:58:36] Katherine Howe: Yeah, that's true. That is also true. And this again, this goes back to the uses of terror. This is an argument that historian Marcus Rediker very generously gave me a quote for A True Account. I was really blown away that he would agree to do that. His work is very seminal to my thinking about pirates and piracy. And one of the big arguments that he has made is about the [00:59:00] role of terror in piracy. And that role was twofold. One was the terror that the pirates inflicted on the people that they were raiding. So it was actually, the threat of violence was actually their most effective tool, perhaps even more effective than the violence itself.
[00:59:19] Katherine Howe: And at one point in the course of a raid, we even learned that it's not out of, it's not unheard of for a ship to see pirates coming and just say, 'take it all, we give up,' because the threat of terror, A, and B, because of the role of insurance, actually. From a historiographic standpoint, thinking about insurance probably doesn't sound very exciting, but all the cargo that were raided by pirates, including human cargo, thank you very much, were all insured by insurance companies, and so in many cases, the mariners who are on board the ship, they have no interest in what is being taken from them. They, why would they lay their lives [01:00:00] down for a load of lumber and, or a load of breadfruit or whatever it is? Why would they lay their lives down for that when the insurance company is just going to make the syndicate whole anyway? That's the insurance company's problem. And of course, the insurance companies were then in a position to put pressure on governments to reduce the risks of piracy to maritime trade.
[01:00:19] Katherine Howe: But in many instances, the threat of violence was enough. And would give a reason for mariners to, to happily give up, not, maybe not happily, but to give up their goods. And and oftentimes if a mariner, for whatever reason, or a captain decided to fight the pirates off and was successful, I can point to at least one example of an insurance company actually rewarding the captain with a really nice silver tea service for defending their property. And so it was certainly in the insurance companies' interest for piracy to be suppressed.
[01:00:55] Katherine Howe: That being said, there's a scene where the Ned Lowe's crew [01:01:00] takes a small man of war, a small like Navy ship and hangs everybody up in the spars and in the rafters. And that was a not uncommon way of either murdering people or at times trying to torture them into getting information. So like you could hang somebody and then let them down and ask, 'okay, tell me where the goods really are,' hang them, let them down, 'no, really. I mean it', hang them, let them down because hanging, of course If it's the choking kind takes a little while.
[01:01:29] Katherine Howe: That's a grim way to think about it, but it's absolutely true. So you're right. There is a parallel, a visual parallel between the hangings of pirates at the beginning, the gibbeting of William Fly's body, the way that the state used terror to try to suppress piracy. And the ways that pirates used terror to try to get what they wanted, or the threat of terror to get what they wanted.
[01:01:54] Katherine Howe: And as I said, that argument, that sort of dual pronged uses of terror, twin uses of terror, was an [01:02:00] argument Marcus Rediker has made, not me. But which I think is a very persuasive and interesting argument, and is at work in some plot points in
[01:02:07] Sarah Jack: and it gave you then the opportunity to show the responses of the people who are experiencing the terror. And there are different ones.
[01:02:17] Katherine Howe: Yeah. There are some different ones. And yeah it's interesting because at the very, at the beginning, we see the responses to William Fly's gibbeting, particularly for Hannah, like the William Fly actually becomes kind of a recurring theme, almost like a Greek chorus in Hannah's ear a little bit, because she keeps thinking about him. She keeps turning her mind back to him. And because she was so horrified by the spectacle of his mutilated body. He had gone from being this very handsome man, who not much older than her, handsome, rebellious like playing to the crowd. One thing that William Fly really did do this, which is amazing, William Fly, he's on the scaffold, he's [01:03:00] about to be hanged, and he looks at the noose, and he says to the hangman, "don't you know your trade?" He unties the noose and reties it better, because he's a sailor and he knows how to tie knots. Which like, for my mind is ranked right up there with Sarah Good, "I'm no more witch than you are a wizard. And if you take away my life, God will give you blood to drink," for badass things people have done on a scaffold. Things that I would be far too terrified and pipsqueaky to possibly contemplate. But he really did do that.
[01:03:28] Katherine Howe: And so there is both the way that Hannah experiences some kind of mixture of inspiration and love and pity when she sees what's done to William Fly that then turns into a kind of determination or rebellion.
[01:03:46] Katherine Howe: And then there is a different reaction later in the story to a pretty grotesque scene of hanging that causes a pretty pronounced change in how the plot is unfolding and in the group of pirates. [01:04:00] And it shows the different ways that terror can be brought to bear on individual people. .
[01:04:08] Katherine Howe: And for that matter, it's still also for anyone who spent as much time thinking about witches and witchcraft as I have, or as your listeners have, you can't help but think about the spectacle of the hangings at Salem too. That was also a method of the state employing strategies of terror to get compliance. It was the same thing, the same strategy. And the fact that the Salem Witches bodies were cut down and then chucked into a ravine and were not, that it's not gibbeting, but it's not that different. It's treating their bodies like, like trash instead of objects in which a soul used to dwell. And so in that sense, especially given the proximity of those events in time, the fact that Cotton Mather presided over both of them is, at least for me, certainly something that was in the back of my mind while writing those scenes.
[01:04:57] Josh Hutchinson: And since you've [01:05:00] written about both witches and pirates, have you detected any other similarities between the two?
[01:05:07] Katherine Howe: I think the biggest areas of similarity are, well, now that, thinking about it, in some respect, they're both economic crimes. And one of the things, and piracy ends up being suppressed and becomes less of an issue in the late 18th century and then resumes its role into the 19th century as the politics of the slave trade changes, and witchcraft recedes as a crime with the dawning of the consumer revolution in the 1730s, and so in that instance, of course with witchcraft it's like personal household level of crime, butter not coming together, beer going off, what have you. And with piracy it, the crime is perhaps on a larger scale, because it is being, it is against nations and [01:06:00] nations' economic interests, and therefore nations have an invested incentive to suppress it and to thwart it.
[01:06:07] Katherine Howe: But other than that, there it, there's a funny, there is a funny similarity to it. They're both essentially economic crime. They're essentially economic crimes that are controlled or suppressed with methods of terror. They are crimes that are perpetrated by working people, people without a lot of economic power, a lot of, or without a lot of social power. So in that sense, maybe there are some similarities, of course, and of course, but then you have to look at the way that they're gendered.
[01:06:36] Katherine Howe: But that has to do with the universe in which each crime is unfolding, because the universe of the witchcraft crime is a domestic universe. It is the domestic sphere. And the universe of piracy is a maritime universe, which is an almost entirely male space. So in a, maybe there is more points of commonality between those two than we've thought about up until this point.
[01:06:59] Katherine Howe: It's a good question, [01:07:00] Josh. I'm glad you asked.
[01:07:01] Sarah Jack: I had thought on the side a little bit, because you had me thinking so much about gender roles. And then I was thinking, I was like, Oh, look at this over here with the piracy. That's a lot of male. And then over here in, In New England, a lot of, female witch accusation. So that's interesting.
[01:07:20] Katherine Howe: yeah, it's interesting. I don't know that I have a a particular conclusion to draw, but it is intriguing to, to juxtapose those two sets of circumstances, those two sets of extreme people, like individual regular people in extreme circumstances are, that's an interesting juxtaposition.
[01:07:37] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there's two sides of a coin, they're the female and male aspect of the supervillain, so to speak. They're menaces, and they terrorize communities.
[01:07:51] Katherine Howe: And anyone can be turned. Maybe there's another way to think about it, too, that you don't know who, who is going to, who will fall next. Who is going to, who will [01:08:00] resist like Philip Ashton and swim away to Roatan Island and camp out, and who will cave and sign the articles?
[01:08:05] Katherine Howe: And there's also a question of signing. You put, you, you put your mark on the articles just as you write your name in the devil's book. And I have actually the. The signature that I have Hannah use when she signs the article, she chooses a spiral, and because she's not literate at the time of the story. And she says she chooses it because of the pattern of stars that she sees in the night sky over her head.
[01:08:28] Katherine Howe: But actually, I chose that mark for her because it was one of the marks, one of the Salem girls made. One of the accusing girls made that mark, who wasn't It wasn't literate. I'm sure other people made that mark as well or chose that mark, but I, that is where I had seen that mark before.
[01:08:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's a powerful symbolism. You've certainly had a busy writing schedule and publishing schedule.
[01:08:57] Katherine Howe: I'm tired.
[01:08:58] Josh Hutchinson: Would you like to tell us anything [01:09:00] about Astor?
[01:09:01] Katherine Howe: So I have been, yeah it's a busy publishing season for me. On September the 19th, whatever that Tuesday is my next collaboration with Anderson Cooper is going to be published by Harper. It's called Astor: The Rise and Fall of an American Fortune, and like Vanderbilt, it is an unconventional look at the sweep of one person.
[01:09:27] Katherine Howe: It's about a major American family, but it also, it goes in a couple of unexpected directions, just as Vanderbilt did go in some unexpected directions. But it starts with John Jacob Astor, who immigrated first to Baltimore and then to New York from Germany, Waldorf, Germany, and became first a fur trader and then started making his money in Manhattan real estate.
[01:09:49] Katherine Howe: And then we go all the way up through the kind of conflagration that ended the Astor dynasty in New York, which was the trial of Brooke Astor's son, [01:10:00] Anthony Marshall, for elder abuse shortly after her death. And that was about 20 years ago, give or take. And in between, we have some really interesting waypoints, including an Astor being the most famous person who went down on Titanic and including some unexpected twists and turns.
[01:10:18] Katherine Howe: So we talk, we end up having a way of talking about the draft riots, which is the biggest race riot in New York city history that happened. If you saw Gangs of New York, actually, the movie, the Martin Scorsese movie. We just saw a dramatization of of, the draft riots. And we also touched on the Astor Place Riot, which happened before before the draft riots.
[01:10:37] Katherine Howe: And it looks like Vanderbilt. It looks at, What wealth can do to individuals, but it also looks at the unusual ways in which this one particular family have etched themselves into the American landscape in some regards. And I think it's going to be pretty fun. It's meant to be like an episodic history, easy to dip into and out of. You can read a [01:11:00] chapter at a time, very meant to be very readable. And if you're at all interested in the Gilded Age or in New York or riots, it's a pretty great read, and I'm really proud of it. And so that'll be out in September. And A True Account: Hannah Masury's Sojourn Amongst the Pirates, Written by Herself comes out on November the 21st.
[01:11:20] Katherine Howe: I have to say as a native Texan where there, there is an independent bookstore on the front lines of attempts to ban books in schools for teenagers. Shout out to Blue Willow Books for all that they're doing. I think it's very important. We actually can't really overstate how important independent bookstores are for free reading. And so I would really encourage readers who are listening to this to support their independent bookstore and their local library that way.
[01:11:45] Katherine Howe: A True Account will be out on November the 21st, which is the Tuesday right before Thanksgiving. And I'm gonna be doing a couple of events that week, and then also the following week, which you can find out about on my website katherinehowe.com/events, [01:12:00] or on my Twitter, where I'm still, strangely, on Twitter, @katherinebhowe, or on Instagram which I have a little bit more fun, and there's lots of sailing pictures there, too, which is also @katherinebhowe and then The Penguin Book of Pirates will come out in February, on February 6th. So it's going to be a piratey winter in my household, and maybe then I'll have a vacation.
[01:12:23] Sarah Jack: Good. So is that what's next for you? Some
[01:12:27] Katherine Howe: We'll see I, I have, I'm already have an idea or two for a couple of novels that I would like to work on next. I think one of them might be a New York City, It's a little bit, because I've been spending so much time thinking about New York in the 19th century riot era New York, I might find that a fun time to write about, and we'll see if Anderson and I can come up with another collaboration. I think it would be fun to do, and I have a, an idea where that might go, but we'll have to see what his schedule looks like for that as well.
[01:12:55] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I know Vanderbilt is such a great book.[01:13:00] Looking forward to reading Astor.
[01:13:02] Katherine Howe: We're really proud of Astor. I think it's pretty great, and I think it's a little bit. As I say, we try to have a more critical view of history. So it's not like a straight up celebration of wealth and splendor book. There's plenty of wealth and splendor, but there's also some the other side of the coin as well, as you might expect from anything I'm involved with.
[01:13:23] Katherine Howe: Yeah. Gotta have riots. Riots.
[01:13:27] Josh Hutchinson: How can you have a book without a riot?
[01:13:29] Katherine Howe: How can you have a book about a riot? Is it even possible? Is it a book if there's no riot?
[01:13:33] Katherine Howe: Oh, that's what's up for me.
[01:13:36] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, that's awesome. Congratulations on all your successes.
[01:13:42] Katherine Howe: Thank you so much. And thank you so much for inviting me back on on your podcast. I've had such a pleasure. Such a great time visiting with you both.
[01:13:50] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[01:13:52] Mary-Louise Bingham: Dr. Charu WaliKhanna welcomed me from India in September with a smile and [01:14:00] namaste before we chatted about ongoing witch hunts. She is a Supreme Court lawyer specializing in women's rights. Dr. WaliKhanna educates on accusations against tribal, single, elderly, or widowed women who inherit or own their land. A related family will call her a Daian, the Indian term for witch. The family will kick her off her land, if she is not killed first. There is no centralized anti-witch-hunting law in India. However, there are varying anti-witch-hunting laws in different states, the strictest in the state of Assam. Anyone who accuses another as a dayan in Assam and the accused is murdered will go to trial with no possibility of being released on bail and could face seven years to life in jail.
[01:14:46] Mary-Louise Bingham: Watch Dr. WaliKhanna's interview in the video, Witch Hunting in the 21st Century. Read her book, Law on Violence Against Women. Thank you for your voice, Charu WaliKhanna.
[01:14:59] Sarah Jack: Thank [01:15:00] you, Mary.
[01:15:01] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[01:15:04] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide. At End Witch Hunts, our commitment is unwavering to actively engage in educating and advocating for the cessation of witch hunting practice. We can do this through the power of collective action. Thank you for already supporting our projects by listening to and sharing our podcast episodes. If you'd like to further contribute, please consider a financial contribution. Your financial support empowers us to continue our education and advocacy efforts. As the holiday season approaches, we invite you to keep End Witch Hunts in mind when considering your charitable gifts, especially with Giving Tuesday right around the corner. We have donate buttons on our websites.
[01:15:46] Sarah Jack: Our latest historical justice initiative, the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, is dedicated to securing formal exoneration for those wrongly convicted as witches in Boston. We are also seeking a formal apology for all documented victims of the [01:16:00] Massachusetts Colony Witch Trials. Each of these individuals has a story of innocence, injustice, and consequences due to false accusations. You can make a difference immediately by signing and sharing the petition. Do so now at change.org/witchtrials.
[01:16:16] Sarah Jack: If you live in Massachusetts, you can share this project with your legislative representatives and ask them to propose the amendment. If you are a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, we need you to lead or collaborate on this amendment effort now. Please consider reaching out to the project so that we can support you as you propose or support such an amendment. Please take action, and let's work together to help close a chapter of American history that calls out to us all for answers.
[01:16:43] Sarah Jack: This holiday season, as you gather with friends and family, consider sparking friendly conversations about social issues, like the historical and modern implications of witch hunts. While it requires a thoughtful and respectful approach, discussing such topics within your community can be both enriching and eye opening.
[01:16:59] Sarah Jack: [01:17:00] Here's a guide to initiating a positive dialogue. Identify shared interests and experiences. Begin by finding common ground. Try asking about their podcast or reading preferences. Creating a comfortable sharing atmosphere before diving into more substantial topics. Lead with basic information, starting the topic with an informative comment, such as, 'I've recently been learning about historical and modern witch hunts.' This statement naturally invites a response and opens the door to a relaxed and friendly chat about the realities of witch hunting. Share a specific element. Choose one aspect of witch hunts that you find intriguing or important and share it casually. Whether it's a historical fact about witchcraft trials, or your interest in learning about modern violence related to witchcraft accusations, keep it simple and factual. Bring up a favorite book, podcast episode, share about relevant online resources like our website. This approach helps ease into the topic and fosters a more comfortable environment for such a layered social issue. Respect diverse perspectives, [01:18:00] especially around celebrations and get togethers with loved ones. Accept that people have diverse perspectives on social issues.
[01:18:07] Sarah Jack: Recommend additional resources. If the conversation flows smoothly and your friend or family member expresses interest, recommend additional resources on modern witch hunts. This could include documentaries, articles, more podcast episodes, or other educational materials. Always be mindful of comfort levels. Pay attention to cues from your conversation partner. If they seem disinterested or uncomfortable, respect their boundaries and avoid pushing more information. You've already successfully introduced the topic and created awareness. They may take time to think about and process what you introduced them to. Let them decide to learn more.
[01:18:40] Sarah Jack: May our suggestions serve as inspiration for you as you craft your unique approach to navigating social issue conversations. This holiday season, aim to enrich your personal growth by fostering understanding and by seeking meaningful connections, successfully weaving the social significance of witch hunting into your conversations is undoubtedly a triumph. [01:19:00] However, when you dedicate effort to learn more about those around you, recognizing their perspectives and experiences, consider that a victory as well. Whether you immerse yourself in thought provoking discussions about witch trials or focus on finding connections, both avenues actively contribute to richer social interactions.
[01:19:16] Sarah Jack: Your support is instrumental in driving positive change and bringing an end to the dark history of witch hunting practices. For more information and to contribute, visit endwitchhunts.org.
[01:19:28] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah,
[01:19:30] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:19:32] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial and Pirate Podcast.
[01:19:37] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:19:39] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:19:43] Sarah Jack: Visit ThouShaltNotSuffer.com.
[01:19:45] Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends about the show.
[01:19:48] Sarah Jack: Please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:19:52] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:20:00]

November 23, 2023

I Be a Witch: A Film about Salem Witch Trial Victim Ann Foster

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

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Show Notes

Meet Lori Prescott Hansen and Matthew C. S. Julander writer and co-director of the upcoming film I Be a Witch. The film tells the story of Lori’s ancestor, Salem witch trial victim Ann Foster of Andover Massachusetts. Ann’s story is told through visions and memories that Ann is experiencing during her last days in the Salem jail. Lori and Matthew reflect together on the making of the movie and the impactful lessons the history offers.

I Be a Witch Facebook Page

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Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, the show that asks why we hunt witches and how we can stop hunting witches. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:19] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack, and today we speak with Lori Prescott Hansen and Matthew C. S. Julander about their film, I Be a Witch.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: The film tells the stories of Lori's ancestor, Salem Witch Trial victim Ann Foster of Andover. Based on actual events, Ann's story is told through visions and memories Ann is experiencing during her last days in the Salem jail.
[00:00:43] Sarah Jack: Welcome Lori Prescott Hansen, Salem Witch Trial descendant, writer, and actress, and I Be a Witch film director, Matthew C. S. Julander.
[00:00:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: I'm Lori Prescott Hanson. I always throw in the Prescott, because I live in a small town, and there's five Lori Hansons just here. My husband and I have been theater artists for a long time. We actually met in a production of King Lear. And we began to do professional storytelling quite a while ago. And we've been doing that ever since. He taught theater at the university here for 20 years, and I did a lot of directing of shows here and here in small town, Idaho as far as being a storyteller goes, there's not a lot of venues unless you create them yourself. And so that's what led me along the path of doing one person shows. And this one about Ann is the second one I've done. And so that's my background. Matthew, take it away.
[00:01:47] Matthew C. S. Julander: So I'm in Utah. I went to film school at Brigham Young University and then zapped off to Los Angeles for close to 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make my way into the film industry in earnest. So I worked on a few shows and made some corporate videos and just bounced around.
And then eventually decided to move back to Utah. And at which point I met Sherry Julander, who I then married and she is the lady who co directed our movie. And also adapted the screenplay from Lori's one-woman show. And so the story goes that I don't know, two years ago Sherry comes to me and says, 'Hey, I have some friends who are putting on a one woman show up in Idaho,' so we drove for six hours and like about hour one of the drive, she said, Oh, by the way, it's a middle aged woman doing a one woman show. And she was worried that I was going to hate the whole thing and want to turn
[00:02:43] Lori Prescott Hansen: it under wraps.
[00:02:44] Matthew C. S. Julander: But so she waited until we got far enough along that I was stuck. So we went up and watched it, and the story is really compelling. I was just struck. And so I, as soon as the lights came up, I turned to Sherry and said, we, do you want to try and make a short film out of this? And thus was hatched our little plot here. What started as something that was going to be a 25 to 30 minute movie has ballooned up to a short feature length movie. And now we're on your podcast.
[00:03:16] Lori Prescott Hansen: Sherry was actually a former student of my husband's. And so we had worked together. I've done plays with her in the past. And we had talked years ago about wanting to do something around Salem just because we've both always been intrigued by the subject. Then I found out later my ancestor was actually one of the accused women, and Sherry said that name sounds so familiar and she went back and checked her personal history and lo and behold we are both descendants of Ann Foster. We felt a real a real bond and a real kinship doing that. And something that we meandered around years ago finally became a reality.
[00:03:58] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. What's it like to find out that your friend is also your cousin?
[00:04:03] Lori Prescott Hansen: It couldn't have happened to a nicer person. I love her. I love her to death. And she is an amazing actor as well as screenwriter, and she and Matthew are a force together to be reckoned with, as far as film production. We're really excited that they joined on.
[00:04:23] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah and I also have a common Salem ancestor. We started doing this show, and then found out that we're cousins.
[00:04:31] Lori Prescott Hansen: Really?
[00:04:33] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're both from Mary Esty.
[00:04:36] Lori Prescott Hansen: Oh, wow.
[00:04:38] Josh Hutchinson: yes.
[00:04:39] Lori Prescott Hansen: Yeah. You hear all these names and there's so many stories. So many stories. Yeah.
[00:04:48] Sarah Jack: Do you wanna tell us about Ann Foster's story?
[00:04:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: My son called me one day. He's known as a storyteller. I've always been drawn to crone figures, to wise women, to that sort of thing. And jokingly have always said I'm part witch. But he called me one day and said, "did you know that you are related to an accused witch of Salem?" And it just floored me. And I, cause I had no idea. So I went back and he showed me the timeline, the link from grandmother to grandmother. And she's my 11th great grandmother. And so I began to just read into her life, and the more I read, the more compelled I was and because her story is so unique and uniquely tragic, because of the elements in her life that it just it just pulled me in, and I wanted to do something about and for this woman that I felt a real kinship to. So that's the kernel of the beginning of it for me and my appeal to Ann, because like I say, even if she weren't a relation, her story is so compelling, because it's very unique in its own right. Go for it, Matthew.
What was it about Ann that sucked you in as a non relation?
[00:06:14] Matthew C. S. Julander: Something that I found striking about this whole process is how much of just the dialogue in our movie is pulled straight from like court reports. This is apparently what, at least whoever was writing it down, got, is the exact things that people were saying. And so that makes it very it does make it very personal.
And you're saying, 'oh my gosh, this isn't just a story, this isn't the Avengers, this is like a real person that all this stuff happened to.' So as we set about to make a movie of it, in large part we just followed what we saw Lori when she put on the one woman show, but we, we treated it with a certain degree of gravity or reverence or care, because we wanted to keep it a true story. We wanted to keep it true to what, as far as we can tell, Ann Foster might've really felt. I have a feeling that Lori might be, I don't know, a feistier person than Ann was? Because I'm told that at the time of, yeah, maybe Ann was feistier in her younger years, but at the time of her incarceration, she'd gotten on in years and she was quite feeble.
[00:07:20] Lori Prescott Hansen: No one will ever accuse me of being feeble.
[00:07:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: But on the other hand, just from the life that she led and some of the things that she did that were contrary to what would have been culturally accepted, especially since being culturally accepted was, I think it was a much bigger deal for the Puritans in New England. I think she probably was a feisty lady. She probably was a little bit of a rebellious lady. And maybe she was forced to be that way just because she married a guy who was way too old for her and defied some expectations.
So in any case, it was really interesting being able to look into the life of this very real person and have some of the words that she came up with when she was in the trial, when she was giving her confession and just trying to not just see through that window, but try and open that window up to other people so they could see into it as well.
[00:08:14] Josh Hutchinson: And so this began as a solo project, a one person play, and then evolved from there. What can you tell us about the one woman play?
[00:08:27] Lori Prescott Hansen: When I began writing this whole thing, I began it through a storytelling approach. I was going to tell her story third person. And I actually wrote it out, and I began reading it to my husband, and I realized it was so boring, and it sounded like a book report. And so I played around with combinations of narration and then character, and that became really singsongy back and forth and he finally said one day, you just need to write it as a play. And so I did. I take on other voices throughout the script but not a lot. It's mostly her own voice, her own words. My creation, but it's through her voice. And yeah, it was really well received where I've done it. I've only really done it a handful of times.
But the thing that really turned the corner for me on writing it was my husband again, who is also a playwright, said to me one day, 'you're writing it like you're writing about a woman who knows she's going to die. And he said, that's not interesting. You should be writing about a woman who is fighting to live.' And that was like a huge light bulb moment for me, and I realized he was exactly right, and that's when the writing really began to flow.
And like I say, it was really well received. I was really very proud of it. When Sherry and Matthew came up and saw it and they talked to us about it directly after the show, honestly, I feel such a, not ownership, but such a, this is my thing. And I was really afraid to turn what I had envisioned and done over to someone else. And if it hadn't been that it was Matthew and Sherry, I may never have said, 'okay, you can take this and do it you want with it.' But I did. And I couldn't have been more happy.
They were true to Ann. They were true to her story. They were true to how I envisioned the show, and they only heightened it with a full cast and fleshed out dialogue and lots of scenes in the jail. And anyway, so that was the metamorphosis of it for me.
[00:10:57] Sarah Jack: Is there anything about her history, the story, that you want to share today?
[00:11:03] Matthew C. S. Julander: I can give you like a slight overview of what what the story is about. So Ann Foster was in Andover. She was not among the first people that were accused or tried for witchcraft. Her story started because there was a man in her town. So Joseph Ballard's wife was ill and he thought maybe it was witchcraft. He had heard about all these people getting accused and convicted of witchcraft in Salem, so he went down to Salem and grabbed some of the teenagers who had been accusing people and brought them back up to Andover.
And they spotted Ann Foster and accused her of being a witch. And so then she was dragged in and eventually tried, convicted, and set up in the the Salem jail. We basically tell that story and something that's interesting. This is maybe not so much about Ann's story, but it's more about how this, the way that we tell the story is like structured.
When Lori wrote this script, she wasn't following like the formulaic stuff that they use for say, like writing screenplays. Whereas the story that we told it's almost as if the inciting moment happens before the story starts. And it happens like in a flashback because the whole story is told from Ann Foster's perspective in the Salem jail. And the question that we're trying to put into the minds of the audience right out of the gate is, 'okay how did she get here? What happened? How did this madness ensue?'
And then she just tells the whole story. She goes back to the whole Salem witch like craziness, to her earlier life. She talks about how she was married to a man who was quite a bit older than she was. She talked about her children. She talks about something that happens, one of the terrible events that happens to one of her children, which maybe I don't want to reveal yet, because you have to watch the movie. All these things could have had an influence on why the people of the time thought, 'oh, yeah, that makes sense that Ann Foster would be a witch.'
[00:13:00] Lori Prescott Hansen: Because when you're already the other, you're a sitting duck.
[00:13:03] Matthew C. S. Julander: She was already like an easy target for the accusations. I think that everybody who does a Salem witch trial story or tries to tell the story, the central question is, 'how did this happen?' It's always, 'how did this happen? How did these people get to the point where they're actually executed people for a thing that nowadays we see is just like being a fiction, just completely made up?
And so we tried to get in there, too. And because we have Ann's personal story. And some of the things that she said, we have some of her words, we can say, okay, this is at least the perspective of one person, how she was able to, how she sees it ,why she was dragged into it.
One of the striking things for me is that Ann Foster herself, in our dialogue, she says, 'Oh, I believe there's witches. I'd just be not one of them.' That's not the exact quote, but it's close. So it's oh yeah, everybody believed that it was real. But everyone also knew about I'm not one, though.
We even got into the idea that some people maybe started toying with the idea that, 'am I a witch? Maybe I've had bad thoughts about this person or that person. Maybe I projected some evil onto that person. Maybe that's some witchcraft. Maybe I'm somehow involved.' And that's the sort of thing that allowed it to roll.
[00:14:21] Lori Prescott Hansen: That's one Ann's lines in it is, 'can one be a witch and not know it?' Which is an interesting question. The most poignant question to me that we raise in the script is a line of Ann's. She's in jail. She's been there quite a long time. And she says, 'so what do you do with a broken, old witch?' No one's paying for her to get out, whether they could or chose not to, we really don't know. She's there for the duration until she dies
[00:14:52] Matthew C. S. Julander: Spoiler alert.
[00:14:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: So what do you do with people like this that are the throwaways? Even though your sentence has been stayed, you're still a convicted witch. That's probably the most poignant question to me in the film is 'what do you do with a broken, old witch?'
[00:15:12] Matthew C. S. Julander: And it's maybe not a question that we answer in great detail. It's something that the audience is left to think about for themselves. Because since we stay in Ann's, in her perspective, in her mind the whole time, it's yeah, we don't know why her son Andrew never showed up to pay the jailer's fees.
[00:15:30] Lori Prescott Hansen: Abraham is the one that paid to take her body. They paid to retrieve her body. They did not pay to have, you had to pay for everything. You had to pay for your straw. You had to pay for your chains. You had to pay for your food or water, anything. And we don't know if they didn't have the money to pay her way out or whether they chose not to. We know they did not sign the petition that the town raised when everyone had decided enough was enough. Whether they didn't want to bring more attention to her story or there's just so many questions that we don't have answers to.
[00:16:07] Matthew C. S. Julander: So we asked the questions.
[00:16:09] Lori Prescott Hansen: We asked the questions, and we did take a bit of a slant on things, because we realized if we're going to do this project, we have to make choices. We can't just have the whole thing be ambivalent. We have to make some choices. I hope they were the right ones, but we'll see.
[00:16:28] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think the creative piece of telling the story is an essential part. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys have put together.
[00:16:38] Matthew C. S. Julander: So are we!
[00:16:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: Me too.
We actually just did our first submission of it.
[00:16:45] Matthew C. S. Julander: That's a rough cut.
[00:16:47] Lori Prescott Hansen: It's this close to being done, but we were able to slip it in on a deadline that was important to us. Yeah, it's very close. We actually, the four of us traveled three weeks ago? Four weeks ago? We actually flew out to Andover and Salem and met with some people out there and particularly in Andover we met with a woman that works at the North Church, which is the congregation Ann would have been part of. We met with the caretaker of the cemetery on the South side of Andover.
We met with Jill Christiansen from the Salem Witch Museum, and she was very, very helpful and very kind. And in fact, all of them were, and it just, we really hope to be able to do a screening in, I would really prefer Andover to Salem, because that's where it began, and that's where it would be full circle. So anyway, we've talked to a few people and nothing's set in stone, but we're excited, excited.
[00:17:58] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of people don't realize the involvement of Andover, even though Andover had more accused than Salem did.
[00:18:10] Lori Prescott Hansen: And Martha Carrier was from Andover. It's almost treated as an afterthought in some ways to Salem, and I guess that's probably because of the hype.
And I think there are many people in Andover that feel those strong, still connections to their history.
[00:18:30] Matthew C. S. Julander: It's striking as we went to the graveyard at the South church in Andover and then the other, the cemetery it's up closer to the North Church. When we went to those places and we looked at gravestones, I was struck that very often the people who were buried in, the official graveyard, the official cemetery, are what I would now consider the villains of this story, lots of the judges, but none of the people who were accused of witchcraft and then who would not cop to it.
The ones who would never give up and say yes, I'm a witch. The ones who actually maintain their integrity, those are the ones that don't get to be buried there. And, it's not even sure where many of them any of them, are buried. Because even the ones that were officially hanged, it's they have a, there's a Walgreens. Up the street from, that's where the which memorial is it?
[00:19:23] Josh Hutchinson: That's the Proctor's Ledge,
[00:19:25] Matthew C. S. Julander: the proctor's ledge. So they have a sense of, we think they must be buried here or here, but it's not really known.
[00:19:33] Sarah Jack: It's the exact situation in Connecticut with their victims and the, the founders that ran the witch trials and those kind of things. Their statues are there honoring the history, the impact of their history. And we worked on an exoneration project for the Connecticut victims last year, and the state did pass a bill apologizing to the 34 indicted, 11 hanged.
Now we're working on. State memorial for the victims and one of the things that we're up against is making room for these accused because there's already, all the space is taken by those who have already been buried and honored and,
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: in a lot of cases are the accusers.
[00:20:24] Sarah Jack: They are the accusers. When you started talking about that, I'm like, oh my goodness, there's some other ancient burial grounds in New England, it's the same situation.
[00:20:32] Lori Prescott Hansen: And just following your Facebook posts and that, I realized that the Connecticut thing has been a passion project for you a labor of love, and,
[00:20:43] Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was interesting because there were local Connecticut residents and advocates and descendants who, for many years, have tried to get an acknowledgment. And then last year when North Andover was working on Elizabeth Johnson Jr. 's exoneration. It was happening during the 375th anniversary of the hanging of Alice Young who was the first hanged in Connecticut and it just seemed so unfair that nobody knows her name. She has not been apologized to, and it really just fired a bunch of us up and everything, it was just the right timing. The politicians there were ready to make an attempt, and so this project, which we've talked quite a bit about in several episodes, it was a passion, and we all came together and found a route to that apology.
[00:21:37] Lori Prescott Hansen: Wow.
[00:21:39] Sarah Jack: But now they need a memorial. There's a few individual bricks in some of the local towns honoring some specific victims, but there's nothing. Nothing, there's no monument for the history, so that's what's next. We'll see how that unfolds.
[00:21:59] Lori Prescott Hansen: Yeah. Because people don't even really think of Connecticut. It's that Salem story, no, it was all over. Yeah. Connecticut was earlier than Salem and Massachusetts, wasn't it?
[00:22:13] Josh Hutchinson: It, yes, it began much earlier, started in 1647, so 45 years before. But Andover also, there's not, a specific site to go to in Andover to remember the victims from there. And there were, what was it? 45 or 48 people accused from Andover? Very high number. And there's nothing there, there's no plaque, there's no statue, there's no wall or benches or
[00:22:52] Matthew C. S. Julander: Something that when we set out to make this movie, making movies can be a pretty A large undertaking. Although this movie was quite small by comparison to some. We shot the entire thing in a 20 by 30 garage. So even though it is a period piece, we built a couple of sets.
So we have a prison set that is meant to look very realistic, and we had a Foster home set that ended up looking very realistic over the course of the shoot. The first scenes that we did in that, we only had two walls of that set, but later on, we built out the whole thing. In any Case it takes over your life for a while, because you end up realizing, oh, it's I'm building a house. There's something where you have to decide that you want to go through all the trouble, right? You have to tell yourself this is worth it. And so as we've been talking about the people who are past and the people who went through this incredibly unjust situation, and some of them lost their lives I, I was thinking, eh, whether you believe in an afterlife or not, I would think that those people, maybe it doesn't matter what we think of them now, right?
If you don't believe in an afterlife, then clearly they don't care. If you do believe in an afterlife, they might be busy with something else. And so it's maybe not so much for them that we do these memorials and that we try to try to set things right. It might be more for us. And so that's the thought that I had when we were making this film is, 'I want this film to be something that shows how that happened back then.'
In that sense, that those who don't learn from history will repeat it. If you do learn from history, hopefully you grow. And yeah. As we were making the film, I was always trying to think, okay, how is this going to affect people? How can we show people something that hopefully makes them into better people?
And the crazy thing about the whole witchcraft trial fervor that ran across Europe and then America in many cases, it wasn't as if there was some ulterior motive. But a lot of times it was just, I don't know, the arrogance of the judges. The arrogance of the people in their religion thinking that they were infallible. It was just, things got out of hand, and people's emotions were driven to a certain direction and there was no one to say, 'whoa, let's calm down. Let's think about this.' And so it seems like that is an informative lesson for us right now. And maybe always, everybody always likes to say, 'Oh, in our time, things are so tough.' And it's so similar to now. And you could say that about now, you could say that about probably any epic in the Earth's history as well.
In any case, it seems like it's a useful story for us to look at and say, 'Hey, do I have any prejudices? Do I have any arrogance? Do I have any beliefs that are untested that I'm so sure about that I would do something that might turn out to be reprehensible?' And I hopefully the movie and these stories, and even when we talk about the monuments and trying to call attention to it, so like Alice Young that nobody's ever heard of. If we can call attention to these people and say, 'look, these stories all happened,' hopefully that'll affect us now and say, 'okay I don't want to create another story for somebody 375 years from now to look back at and go,'
[00:26:06] Josh Hutchinson: And Ann Foster's story is so compelling because of so many reasons. You alluded to earlier something that happens to one of her daughters before the trials. And then there are things that happen to her family during the trials.
[00:26:27] Lori Prescott Hansen: Ann, humble, meek, fragile, old Ann was very well known, because of her family and what had happened in it. Everyone knew Ann Foster's history. She was very ripe for the picking. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Matthew C. S. Julander: I think that's actually an interesting thing about the story. So maybe most people's entrance into their understanding of the Salem Witch Trials is the Crucible. That seems to be the most famous story that's been told. But the Crucible sets it portrays John Proctor and is it Elizabeth Proctor? They're portrayed as having John had an affair, right? He's portrayed as having this sin that he committed.
Ann is interesting in that there's really no sin for her, but there is this circle of bad things that have happened, things that, okay, your son in law is a really bad guy though and maybe there's a little impropriety with this and maybe like your granddaughter is a bit of a mess. She's not being very Puritan. There was things that made it look like she could be looked at as being bad somehow.
I think that's a really important thing to look at in the story. If I were to tell another story from the witch trials, I maybe would want to do one about Rebecca Nurse, because she's theoretically like the perfect Puritan, just angelic in every way.
But the idea that I'm going at is some of these people who got roped up in this, they really were unimpeachable. I guess you can't say they were above reproach. They would probably, had their, personal interactions where they might get mad at somebody or do something that people would remember and think of them as having been sinful or wicked or something.
They really were just good people, just fairly honest, fairly good. People like hopefully you and me.
[00:28:10] Lori Prescott Hansen: And John Proctor himself, the same thing that, historically there was not an affair or anything like that. That was Arthur Miller's slant on it that pulled us all in. John Proctor was unique in that he didn't buy it, and he decided he was going to beat the witchcraft out of, was there, was it Mary Warren? And because he didn't go along with it, he was pegged.
The other thing that was interesting about Ann, too, with Joseph Ballard is that was the first time anyone had gone to Salem and literally recruited these girls and brought them back to Andover. And then they singled out Ann, who they already were aware of who she was, everyone was, but that was interesting to me, the lengths that he went to to find a witch, to literally go recruit the girls and bring them up to Andover from Salem.
[00:29:08] Josh Hutchinson: That was a major turning point in the course of the witch hunt, bringing them to Andover, starting that whole, it just snowballed after that, Andover, you had Martha Carrier accused previously to that, but it was limited to her.
And then that just opened the floodgates, and they had the mass touch test where they brought everybody in and had the afflicted people touch them to see if that cured them.
The touch test, basically the belief was that when a witch used their magic against their victim they're transferring this effluvia, this kind of substance from the witch to the victim, and then on contact, the substance would go back from the victim into the witch.
[00:30:09] Lori Prescott Hansen: A literal substance.
[00:30:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, a literal substance that they could...
Yeah, so they could beam at you through the evil eye
or they could get you with it, an image of you, there was, there were poppets and image magic and spells and curses. So they had a few ways to strike at you. But there were ways to cure. You just had to get really close to the person you thought had bewitched you.
[00:30:40] Matthew C. S. Julander: So what the part about it that was backwards is they would, they would blindfold or somehow make it so that the witch was unaware of who was touching them, but they would let the person, the afflicted, still be able to see. So when they did these touch tests, the afflicted person would come in, they'd know exactly who they were touching, so if they like, oh, it's Ann Foster is the one we're accusing. When I touch Ann Foster, I'm suddenly going to not be afflicted anymore, right? So they could clearly fake it. Whereas, Ann Foster didn't know who was touching her, right? So the idea was, 'we don't trust the witches, so we have to blindfold them. But clearly our accusers are perfectly honest, good people, so we don't have to blindfold them.'
And that's just you guys are very bad at interrogation. It never occurred to you that maybe the accusers are not being honest. If we're doing the test, either they're being honest or they're, it's one of the possibilities that we should be testing for. And we can, we just blindfold everybody.
[00:31:30] Josh Hutchinson: Or even if they truly believed that the person was bewitching them, they would behave differently around the person. They buy into this stuff, they first, they see that person, they fall into one of their fits, then they touch the person believing that's going to cure them, and the fit suddenly stops.
[00:31:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: We have tried with the film to be as accurate as we know and as we can be. We all felt, I think, a real sense of obligation to do that. We want it to be true to her story. It's sensational enough on its own. We didn't need to hype it up even more than her story already is. To me, it may be the most compelling of that era, her story, because of so much, but I'm also biased.
[00:32:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: We've talked about how in Andover, it was like a much bigger problem. It was, it's really where it got it blew up more. I said something that maybe for the listeners, it'd be nice to clarify. I said maybe it was because of Ann. So Ann Foster apparently is the first one to have ever said that there were 300 some odd. 307, oddly specific, but maybe she knew that would, made the story sound more authentic. She said there were some 307 witches in our county and nobody had ever put a big number on it like that. And so maybe when she said that, everybody was like, and so then the authorities are like, 'okay buckle on your swords, boys. We got to go pick up some more people,' or something like that.
[00:33:06] Josh Hutchinson: That's also something that makes her confession really interesting, and it is a big turning point, again, in the witch hunt, because, early on, Tituba says there's nine witches, so they're looking for nine people, but then the number just keeps growing, and then it leaps with Ann Foster to this 300 some people, and yeah, they really were looking under every stone, trying to find a witch in Andover.
[00:33:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: Was she the first one, I can't remember, was she the first one in her confession that talked about flying on a stick, or had someone done that before her?
[00:33:49] Josh Hutchinson: Tituba had talked about it.
[00:33:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: and even that she had cheese in her pocket, which I thought was not funny, but like that's really specific. And you do get the idea, too, the question is raised, she was old, she was feeble, she was frail. Did she start to believe these things? Was her mind beginning to wander? Was she confessing to save herself and members of her family, to take it on herself? We don't know all those things, but they're all really compelling questions.
[00:34:27] Josh Hutchinson: And we do know that people, as you mentioned earlier, were thinking, 'could I be a witch and not know it?' Was a theme that was going through the Andover Confessions,
[00:34:41] Lori Prescott Hansen: Right.
[00:34:42] Josh Hutchinson: People questioning themselves, could I have committed some sin that turned me over to the devil?
And could I unwittingly be causing these people harm?
Yeah, people were truly confused about it.
[00:34:59] Lori Prescott Hansen: It's interesting too, to me, that Ann called out Martha Carrier. She wasn't guiltless in accusing others. In her mind, Martha Carrier is already in prison, so I'm not doing any additional harm. You could spend years delving into all of this and never get to complete answers.
[00:35:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: I feel like one of the things when we're trying to figure out how it all happened is this idea of like they had competing virtues. Like one of the virtues was you had to have faith and believe. And another virtue was you had to have integrity and be honest. And those were competing virtues in the sense that say with John Proctor, who thought that all the witch stuff was a bunch of hubbub. And Lori said he tried to beat it out of his servant. He's, ' I'll show you, say that you've sensed witches, whack whack, do you still sense witches? Nope!' For that, for Proctor to do that, it's like he's saying, 'okay, so witches, that's a bunch of nonsense,' but witches are in the Bible and witches are something that we all believe is part of, it's tied to the religion.
And so is John Proctor like showing a lack of faith and a lack of belief? That means John Proctor is not virtuous. But on the other hand, John Proctor went to his execution and wouldn't say that he was a witch. He would, he never I don't want to say admitted because that suggests that he actually was. He never copped to it, right?
And so in that sense, he had the other virtue of the integrity. So these people who were trying to say, 'maybe I am a witch. Can I be a witch and not know it?' That's their attempt to make those two competing virtues work together. I'm still going to believe, but I don't want to lie. It's a form of like cognitive dissonance for them, but like that's an interesting and I guess kind of awful way that they had to try to do the mental gymnastics to make it so they could keep all their virtues.
[00:36:52] Josh Hutchinson: That's a really good analysis. And there was so much going on in Andover contributing to the confessions. Really most of the people in Andover did ultimately confess, and they were being pressured by their own families to do so, because there was a rumor going around that if you confessed, you'd be spared.
[00:37:17] Lori Prescott Hansen: be forgiven. You were capable of being forgiven or of repenting.
[00:37:22] Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, they did end up convicting a number of people who confessed, but fortunately for them it was late enough in the game that they were never actually executed. But that rumor was going around. And then there was the whole, 'could I be one and not know it? Everybody's telling me I am a witch. If the magistrate is telling you you're a witch, and he's a reliable guy and trusted and looked up to, and maybe you start believing him instead of yourself.
[00:37:58] Lori Prescott Hansen: And if you look at that in terms of Ann, she had so much tragedy in her life that maybe this has happened because I am this and she's old and she's feeble and she's worn down and she's seen so much in her family that's just remarkable. I'm sure she was just, in some ways, just done.
[00:38:21] Matthew C. S. Julander: I do wonder how she came up with all the details that she came up with. Like the bird that came black and left white, or the dog, the stick, the cheese in the pockets. There were so many like interesting little tidbits. It's is it because she was in that kind of feeble place and her mind was just making things up now and she was in fever dream mode? Or was she like knowingly trying to protect her family and she's, this is the best way to do it. I've seen enough lying. I if she had, but I'm going to do details with the lies so they seem more.
[00:38:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: And the details of life that are given extra magical or whatever stories to explain them. Ann had a bad leg or a bad hip. She says it's because she fell off the stick. So anyway, just so many things that make it. It's interesting and sad and educational that, if we can learn the lessons that we ought to learn, we'd be better off for our own futures.
[00:39:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: Somebody was talking about how dense those forests are and imagine them without electric lighting, like how there'd be so little that you could see and how everything would be so close. There was the dangers of getting diseases. There was plenty to be afraid of that you couldn't see and wouldn't know was coming, right? And that seems like that also made it rife for people to work up in stories of things and to believe in things that maybe weren't there. It's a really strange place.
[00:39:53] Lori Prescott Hansen: New England is, it's to me a magical place. It's beautiful. It's picturesque. The houses are amazing. I love the styles and all that. I love the toll roads, but it's interesting that such a tragic thing could take place in such a beautiful place. And that's, that happens everywhere, it can happen anywhere. And it was the frontier, particularly Andover. It was the frontier.
[00:40:22] Josh Hutchinson: I've camped in the forest near Andover. There's a Harold Parker State Forest right there. And I spent about 10 days, I believe, in the woods right there. And even today, the woods are so thick that if you're out on one of those hiking trails, it doesn't take long to not have roads and sounds from roads and so just imagining back then, and coming from England where it's a little more crowded and there'd be some more lights to this very wilderness. It's so hauntingly frightening. You actually have wolves and bears and things that they don't have in England anymore. Yeah, it's just a spooky environment, but so beautiful.
[00:41:16] Lori Prescott Hansen: beautiful.
[00:41:18] Sarah Jack: At this stage with your project, what is it that you need from listeners, from supporters?
[00:41:25] Lori Prescott Hansen: We need viewers. Yeah. And exposure. Exposure. That's why we appreciate this podcast so much because it's huge. It's a huge benefit to us. So we need energy.
[00:41:39] Matthew C. S. Julander: We are going to try to put it into festivals, and as we do, we'll post about it on our Facebook page and on our website so that anybody who's interested in seeing the film can go see it. So one thing would be great for us is if you go search for I Be a Witch on Facebook and follow us there. Or you can go to ibeawitch. com, bookmark that, and go back to it. You can also go to ibeawitch. com and find your way to the Facebook group from there.
And that way, anybody who's interested in the film can keep track of, like, where it ends up, so where they can see it. And that, then, as we start, rolling it out and showing it in different places, the exposure would be great. If you, if... If you want to help us with the film, you can, "Hey, they just said they're going to be in this film festival in North Carolina. Everybody who wants to go see it in North Carolina." And that, that, that'd be helpful for us. Eventually, we hope to get it onto a streaming platform. And when we do that, of course, we'll tell everybody where that is. And then it's just a matter of, yeah, tell your friends, go watch the movie.
[00:42:38] Sarah Jack: And right now they can watch the preview,
[00:42:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: They can. You can watch the trailer.
[00:42:42] Matthew C. S. Julander: The trailer's on ibeawitch. com.
[00:42:44] Lori Prescott Hansen: The trailer, I have to say. I'm tickled with it.
[00:42:48] Josh Hutchinson: We'll have a link to that in the show description to both the Facebook and the website. And as you start to have showings, we'll definitely share that on our social media to help get the word out. It's something that our listeners are going to be interested in. We'll definitely be helping promote that as we can.
[00:43:12] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[00:43:14] Mary Louise Bingham: Alice Markham Cantor, a freelance writer and a fact checker for the New York Magazine. She is creating a database regarding worldwide witch hunts. Alice uses her writing skills by weaving the common threads of witch hunts from the 1300s to the current day. Alice introduced me to the story of Iquo Edet Iyo, a prosperous woman looked on with suspicion for years who was accused of using black magic to cause a motorcycle accident at Cross River State, Nigeria. As a result, Iquo was brutally murdered in October of 2022. Alice reminded me that there are over 1,000 innocent people killed due to ongoing deadly witch hunts every year. I encourage the listeners to read Alice's story titled, "Social Turmoil Has Increased Witch Hunts Historically" on Portside.Org. Check out her profile on theinternationalnetwork.org. Thank you, Alice Markham Cantor, you are one powerful advocate.
[00:44:17] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:44:22] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[00:44:25] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide. At End Witch Hunts, our commitment is unwavering to actively engage in educating and advocating for the cessation of witch hunting practice. We can do this through the power of collective action. Thank you for already supporting our projects by listening to and sharing our podcast episodes. If you'd like to further contribute, please consider a financial contribution. Your financial support empowers us to continue our education and advocacy efforts. As the holiday season approaches, we invite you to keep End Witch Hunts in mind when considering your charitable gifts. We have donate buttons on our websites.
Our latest historical justice initiative, the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, is dedicated to securing formal exoneration for those wrongfully convicted as witches in Boston. We are also seeking a formal apology for all documented victims of the Massachusetts Colony Witch Trials. Each of these individuals has a story of innocence, Injustice and life altering consequences due to false accusations. You can make a difference immediately by signing and sharing the petition. Do so now at change.org/witchtrials.
If you live in Massachusetts, you can share this project with your legislative representatives and ask them to propose the amendment. If you are a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, we need you to lead or collaborate on this amendment effort now. Please consider reaching out to the project so that we can support you as you propose or support such an amendment. Please take action, and let's work together to help close a chapter of American history that calls out to us all for answers.
Commemorating Goody Glover Day, November 16th.
On this day of witch trial memorialization in Boston, we want to highlight the significance of November 16th, proclaimed as Goody Glover Day by the Boston City Council in 1988.
Goody Glover, an Irish Catholic widow, was falsely accused, convicted, and hanged for witchcraft on this date in 1688. We invite you to commemorate Goody Glover Day by visiting her memorial plaque at the parish of Our Lady of Victories. The memorial plaque recounts the tragic tale of Ann Glover, emphasizing her unwavering commitment to the Catholic faith.
You may not be able to visit the memorial plaque, but you are able to pay tribute through various means, including social media discussions, coffee shop conversations, educational programs, and moments of reflection. Your support is instrumental in driving positive change and bringing an end to the dark history of witch hunting practices.
For more information and to contribute, visit endwitchhunts. org.
[00:46:58] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:47:01] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:47:02] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:47:07] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:47:09] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:47:13] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:47:16] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[00:47:19] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:47:24] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

November 16, 2023

Colonial Earthquakes: Witchcraft or God’s Will? with Kathleen Langone

People Hidden in History Podcast

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Show Notes

Kathleen Langone of the People Hidden in History podcast speaks with us about colonial New England Earthquakes before the 19th century as signs from God. We discussed several historic earthquakes and the colonists’ reactions. What did the ministers and other leaders have to say about the tremors? Were earthquakes acts of witchcraft or acts of God? What providences were considered acts of witchcraft?

Interview with Greater Boston, Josh Hutchinson, and Dr. Emerson Baker (at 15:38)

Preservation Connecticut Presentation: Sarah Jack and Josh Hutchinson

Fox Live Now, Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack

Washington Post, Josh Hutchinson Interview

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, the show that asks the questions, why do we hunt witches? How do we hunt witches? And how do we stop hunting witches? I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:23] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:25] Josh Hutchinson: Today, we're speaking with Kathleen Langone, host of the People Hidden in History podcast, talking about colonial New England earthquakes as signs of God's wrath.
[00:00:34] Sarah Jack: How did the society respond to earthquakes differently than other misfortunes?
[00:00:46] Josh Hutchinson: And what did the ministers have to say about the potential meaning of the earthquakes?
[00:00:53] Sarah Jack: Kathleen Langone is the creator and host of People Hidden in History podcast. She enjoys telling people about history that isn't commonly known, or possibly people hidden in the shadows of the more famous. Be sure to check out her website, peoplehiddeninhistory.com, and find her on X to find out more about these hidden stories. .
Kathleen, we are so happy to have you join us today on our podcast. You've had us twice as guests to talk about witch trials. Thank you for coming.
[00:01:28] Kathleen Langone: I'm delighted to be on this series, and it was always fun to talk to you folks from my podcast series, and just briefly about my series, it's called People Hidden in History, and I cover very interesting but not well known people from the 1600s up through about the 1960s. And there are 20 episodes now, a few more to come. And these are, I would say, longer, more academic episodes, but I would love for some of your listeners to come over and listen to some of these podcasts. Thank you.
[00:02:00] Sarah Jack: I love your episodes. Our listeners will really enjoy hearing them and I just, your podcast has a special place in my heart ,because it was my first experience talking on a podcast and thank you for that.
[00:02:15] Kathleen Langone: You're welcome.
[00:02:18] Josh Hutchinson: And how did you come to have expertise in New England earthquakes?
[00:02:24] Kathleen Langone: It's an interesting story, folks. I actually had an undergraduate degree in earth science. I got that from the University of New Hampshire, and through a number of circumstances, I connected with New Hampshire Emergency Management, actually in the late 1980s. There was actually money coming into New England to do research on earthquakes, because various people realized in the United States Geologic Survey that there was a pretty extensive history of earthquakes, as we'll talk about, in the 1600s, 1700s, and there was some concern if these were to happen again that there'd be little preparation, in terms of emergency management. So they brought me in and actually hired me. I worked for a couple of different groups to do historical research on earthquakes, and I went through a lot of dusty library shelves and many interesting historical accounts. And that's really how it all started.
[00:03:21] Sarah Jack: At that time, the research would have been really like hands on. You would have been digging in archives and looking at actual documents for that information, not just jumping on the internet.
[00:03:35] Kathleen Langone: Yeah, that was very true. Back then, there was very little that had been scanned in and digitized, so many hours spent in libraries. And my thanks to the many generous librarians that let me hang out in their institutions.
[00:03:48] Sarah Jack: So have earthquakes become less common? They were more common hundreds of years ago. What's the situation on the frequency of earthquakes in New England?
[00:03:59] Kathleen Langone: That's a good question, because I think people today don't really perceive earthquakes as a threat to New England. They were really quite common in the 1600s, 1700s. And even recorded back to the 1500s. So if you look at the major events, there was a major earthquake in 1638, I think was recorded likely up in New Hampshire.
There were two major earthquakes in the 1700s. 1727, epicenter believed to be in Newbury, Massachusetts, which was in northeastern Massachusetts on the coast, and the 1755 earthquake, which was quite large, maybe the epicenter about 25 miles off the coast of Boston. And then there was a break of activity. And interestingly, there were no earthquakes of note during the Revolutionary War. I think had there been, this would have been much more prominent in history. Very little activity in the 1800s, then there were actually twin earthquakes up in Tamworth, New Hampshire in 1940, and not much since then.
[00:05:03] Josh Hutchinson: You talked about earthquakes in the 17th and 18th centuries. How would the colonists have responded to those? How would they have viewed that experience?
[00:05:16] Kathleen Langone: When I first started researching earthquakes, of course, I was aware of the witch trials in the 17th century, the 1600s, and I thought that these would have been attributed to, the devilish acts of these witches, and there was never a connection there. But these events were definitely seen as acts of a vengeful God. So many of these earthquakes created sermons, which we'll talk about in a little bit. So there was a definite division between what witchcraft could cause. They often would attribute things like diseases, stillbirths, dead livestock, things of that nature, to witchcraft, whereas earthquakes, maybe even hurricanes or things of that nature, were of this very powerful, vengeful god.
[00:06:02] Sarah Jack: And what do the ministers say about his vengeance or what was to follow? What kind of ideas or messages did they have for their churches?
[00:06:17] Kathleen Langone: I think that they almost welcomed these earthquakes, in a way, because to them it was a very clear message that people have sinned and to prevent them from sinning in the future. So these ministers would record these earthquakes, like I said, as acts of a vengeful God. And we'll talk about one minister, Cotton Mather, from 1727, and he's talking about the conditions just before the earthquake and then the earthquake occurring. And he says, "the air was never more calm, the sky never more fair, everything in all imaginable tranquility." But then he says, "was heard in Boston, passing from one end of town to another, a horrid rumbling."
And let's talk back to 1638. There's a recording from William Bradford, second governor of Plymouth Colony, and this passage was actually written at a time when they were having meetings. The town fathers were meeting about actually expelling some people who were not adhering to whatever the laws were of the community, and during this meeting, the 1638 earthquake occurred, and it states, "as if the Lord would hereby show the signs of his displeasure." So in other words, if earthquake was seen as justification for them having this meeting to expel these people.
[00:07:43] Josh Hutchinson: That's really remarkable timing, the 1638 earthquake happening while you're making a weighty decision. I would definitely see them, how you would interpret that as being a sign of what you're supposed to do.
[00:08:01] Kathleen Langone: I would like to mention another recording from the 1638 earthquake. At the time that occurred, the famous Anne Hutchinson that we know ran up against Governor John Winthrop, et cetera. She, in a sense, had been expelled. She was down in Rhode Island at this point, and she was having a meeting, a religious meeting, if you will, at her home. And when the earthquake occurred, from her perspective, it was almost a justification that she was where she was, that it's good that she was no longer up in Massachusetts. So to her, it was a positive sign. And in a couple of weeks, I hope to have a podcast out on Anne Hutchinson. I've recorded it. I'm still editing it, but that's going to be an interesting story that I think you two will enjoy also.
[00:08:46] Josh Hutchinson: I'm really looking forward to that. There's some witchcraft implications in the case of Anne Hutchinson and her associates, the midwives for bearing the children with congenital disorders that they deemed the monster birth, to use the term of the day. Yeah, and John Winthrop even called one of Anne Hutchinson's friends a witch.
[00:09:20] Kathleen Langone: Exactly, Josh, she did have a monster birth. Sadly, I think when the various trials were going around, she was still in Boston. She did have basically a deformed baby that died, and I'm sure that they pounced on that.

[00:09:33] Kathleen Langone: Now in addition to earthquakes, there were some other odd phenomenon that happened in New England. In 1780, though, much later, there was something called a dark day, and this was attributed, they understand now, to these massive forest fires in Canada, which of course we're very familiar with this year, bringing over these huge clouds of smoke and it's stalling over New England. You can have one of these thermal inversions where the air just doesn't move off to the coast. And there was a minister in Connecticut that actually labeled this as a sign of a judgment day that had come across his community. And, you know, I think that's a very strong statement to actually call this a judgment day. So again, earthquakes and some other less easily explained phenomenon were seen as acts of God.

[00:10:24] Sarah Jack: Some of the other things that impacted the colonists, you wouldn't necessarily feel it, you might see it or hear it, and with an earthquake, you've got all your senses being pulled into it. I think how powerful that must have felt to them.
[00:10:41] Kathleen Langone: Well, I think, following up on what you said, the fearful colonists, I think would want to hear from their ministers, because they would see this as an act of God. They would like to hear that confirmed by the ministers, or maybe know in ways that they can repent.
So not only was there shaking of houses and everything, there was an odd phenomenon occurred with the 1755 earthquake called earthquake lights that was even more frightening. So in New England, there's a lot of granite. We all know about granite in New England. And when these earthquake waves would come through, and if they were intense enough, they would actually compress the granite and the quartz in the granite would emit sparks or lights. So in the middle of this earthquake, they would actually see lights skitter across the ground. It was recorded as a blue light, and that's even more fearful. And again, an example of something that would not be explained and be very fearful.
[00:11:37] Sarah Jack: How powerful.
[00:11:39] Kathleen Langone: So I just want to bring up a more humorous aspect of a minister talking about the 1755 earthquake. This is Reverend Phillips from Andover, Massachusetts. And I guess before the November 1755 earthquake, there'd been a lot of people who fell asleep in his sermons. And of course he would rebuke them, etc. And after the 1755 earthquake occurred, he was able to say, you better not sleep now, because God's pretty upset with you. And people stayed awake for a while in his sermons.
[00:12:09] Sarah Jack: Nobody wants to get rapped on their shoulder for dozing off in a service or class, but how even more upsetting to be rattled by God's hand on an earthquake.
[00:12:24] Kathleen Langone: And I think those sermons back then, Sarah, were a couple of hours. They weren't like the nice sweet and short ones we have now at 45 minutes. These were a couple of hours. So I probably would have fallen asleep, too.
[00:12:34] Josh Hutchinson: They would hold two a day on Sundays. You'd go for morning service, break for a long lunch, and then go back in the evening. And sometimes the evening service, it would be so dark in there that you could hardly see the minister. But these are long hours that you're putting in an uncomfortable wooden bench in a building that's either too hot or too cold. It's rarely just right inside one of those buildings.
Was an earthquake always a sign of God's displeasure?
[00:13:12] Kathleen Langone: It mostly Josh, for the earlier earthquakes. By 1755, you had some other trends coming in. This coincided with the Age of Enlightenment from Europe, a lot of new scientific thought coming out, trying to explain things in the world with rational scientific explanations. So there were scientists at that time in Boston who were trying to explain these earthquakes by other means.
There was John Winthrop, a scientist from Harvard, that said these earthquakes could be occurred by strange vapors that might explode underground. And he published his theories on that. There were even theories that Ben Franklin's lightning rods were causing these earthquakes, and you could think of conducting that energy through the lightning rod and the house into the ground causing earthquakes, which of course was not the case.
But these more rational thoughts were not met very well by the ministers, because that would take away their messaging that this was a vengeful god, so there was actually conflicts back and forth between some of the Harvard scientists and the ministers at the time.
[00:14:20] Josh Hutchinson: Were there actions or maybe a set of actions that ministers would take following a sign like an earthquake? Would they, their messaging change? What would they be pushing for to happen as a response?
[00:14:39] Kathleen Langone: They would like some sort of sign of repentance from the parishioners, and there were these fast days called where they would be asked to fast for a day. I know for the 1755 earthquake, there were broadsides, basically posters that were posted in and around Boston saying that people should lead a less sinful life, etc. These fast days were very real.
There were also more frequent sermons and meetings held at the churches. And it's funny what happened with these earthquakes, with any earthquake, of course, there would often be aftershocks. So you'd have your primary shock, and people think it's over. I'll repent. I'll be a good Christian. But then the aftershocks kept coming, and they would think God's still looking at me. I better not sin. And what happened as the aftershocks would decrease with frequency, people would be less apt to go to church. So you'd see this great uptick of people going to the sermons and even though the ministers would keep wanting them to go to church and have more frequent services, the attendance fell down when the aftershock stopped.
[00:15:43] Josh Hutchinson: It's like they had a sense of urgency while the earth was still rumbling, that you let your guard down afterwards.
[00:15:53] Kathleen Langone: And it was to their advantage, really, because it supported their word. Now one other thing I would like to mention of the 1755 earthquake, a few weeks before that earthquake, so the Boston earthquake was November 18th. On November 1st was the very famous Lisbon earthquake that was far more violent and damaging, many people died in that earthquake. It leveled Lisbon. There was a tsunami, all of these various effects. But you have to realize the news of that earthquake reached New England literally right after their earthquake, so if you're thinking of a vengeful god, this would have been even more profound and frightening, because not only did he shake up New England, he shook up Europe, so at that time, they would have thought God was very upset with mankind, and an interesting literary note about the Lisbon earthquake, it was mentioned in the book Candide by Voltaire, And it was an example of how life can turn very horrible, even though you think life is good and God is good, there can be very severe consequences.
[00:16:57] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, so other earthquakes happening in other places, the news of that must also have shaken things up, excuse the pun, in New England for as far as the them interpreting signs of God's displeasure. Hearing of earthquakes in other places must have also affected them.
[00:17:21] Kathleen Langone: Very much and again, I think it, it supported those who saw as a religious angle on this with a vengeful God. It further supported that without question.
[00:17:31] Josh Hutchinson: I know denominations, Catholics and Protestants and Puritans and Anglicans, often used natural disasters politically against each other. Did you ever see anything where say the New England ministers, there was an earthquake, maybe in a Catholic territory, and they pounced on that as a sign that God was unhappy with the Catholics?
[00:17:59] Kathleen Langone: It's interesting that you say that. Because, obviously, Lisbon was predominantly Catholic, and sadly, there were hundreds of lives lost. The number might have even been higher, so the Calvinists and the Puritans in New England might have seen that God was very directly vengeful by killing all those people. Because, if you look at some of the sermons out of Boston of 1755 Earthquake, they cite, a very powerful, vengeful God, but then maybe a kind God in that nobody died in that earthquake or any of the previous earthquakes. So it could be an example that he was directly punishing the Catholics. So you might have a point there.
[00:18:41] Josh Hutchinson: I didn't realize nobody, nobody died in those New England earthquakes. That is quite remarkable.
[00:18:49] Kathleen Langone: Let me follow up on that, because there's a saying among seismologists, "earthquakes don't kill people, buildings kill people." Because if you're just standing out in a field, and even if it's a severe earthquake, at most you're just going to be knocked down. So if you think of the structures up until 1755, they were post and beam. And when earthquakes would come through to these post and beam homes, they could shake and creak a little bit, but they didn't necessarily collapse, because there was some give given the construction.
In Boston, by 1755, there were a number of brick buildings, and they didn't completely collapse, but definitely there were bricks littering the streets, but still nobody got killed. And you didn't have highway overpasses, you didn't have large, metal bridges. So the things that killed people now simply weren't present back then.
[00:19:41] Josh Hutchinson: I imagine in Lisbon, you had more stone buildings in an established older European city.
[00:19:49] Kathleen Langone: I think that would have been very true, and if you ever read the accounts of that earthquake, it was especially nasty.
[00:19:57] Sarah Jack: Kathleen, we don't have a lot of extra information on the Jamaica earthquake. We saw that Marilynne Roach mentions it in her Day by Day Chronicle, when it happened.
[00:20:10] Kathleen Langone: I can tell you I know what the physical effects were. It was on one end of the Jamaica Island, and it was a pretty nasty earthquake. Part of the land actually subsided into the ocean, and the land there became like quicksand, and I have an account, it's a little bit gruesome, but it's a realistic account.
Some people who were walking around as this land began to subside, it became wet, it became like quicksand, and people were actually trapped in the land to the point where just maybe their head was above, and nobody could pull them out. And then actually dogs came around and actually ate some of these people. I know that sounds horrible, but it was pretty gruesome.
[00:20:55] Josh Hutchinson: Samuel Sewell mentioned it in his diary in 1692, and so it had some relevance with Salem witchcraft crisis going on. There was a belief that there was a diabolical conspiracy against the Puritans, against their mission in New England. They had warfare going on with the French Catholics and the Native Americans, who they considered to be pagans.
So they thought that they were being surrounded on all sides by the devil trying to tear down Christ's church. And I know that it was recorded that they did take some solace in that, with the Jamaica earthquake, as terrible as it was, the Puritan minister survived, and no New England vessels were lost in that earthquake. So they took that as solace, but they were still deeply concerned of what the earthquake itself meant.
[00:22:05] Kathleen Langone: Yeah, that's an interesting comment. And again, it goes to the examples where no one died in the New England earthquake. So again, it was a vengeful God, but he spared lives. And I do want to talk a little bit about the 1755 earthquake again. That was during the height of the French Indian War. And a number of accounts are in the accounts of the war, et cetera. So they do mention that earthquake. So it was recorded in journals, if you will, of the French Indian War.
[00:22:39] Josh Hutchinson: That's fascinating how you seem sometimes to have these events compounding, there's just one thing on top of another, and that really gets you wondering, what is this a sign of? Is this maybe the end times?
[00:22:57] Kathleen Langone: Exactly.
[00:22:59] Sarah Jack: You mentioned the dogs at the Jamaica disaster. I was curious if you got to see any other information about animals responses, or if anybody talked about behavior, animal behavior in relation to earthquakes.
[00:23:18] Kathleen Langone: Very good question. There were often recordings of dogs howling just before earthquakes. There's even been some scientific study on that, that before you have the ground motion, there could be some sort of very high frequency waves that can come through an area that animals pick up on. It's been documented many times that dogs and other animals will howl or become restless within a few minutes of an earthquake.
[00:23:44] Sarah Jack: I was also wondering with the fishing, if anybody reported an effect on their fishing.
[00:23:52] Kathleen Langone: There was an account with the 1755 earthquake from a ship that was off the coast of Boston, that just after the earthquake, they saw this huge upwelling of dead fish. It might have been some sort of compression of the water waves that might have killed a school of fish, so there was a recording of that.
[00:24:12] Josh Hutchinson: Wow, that is fascinating. You mentioned tsunamis in regards to the Lisbon earthquake. Was there ever a report of a tsunami or anything to that effect in New England?
[00:24:27] Kathleen Langone: There were not. It just happened to be with the angle that these earthquakes occurred, if you will. There's no recordings of that per se. There are recordings of land subsidence, maybe not huge chasms in the earth, but there were recordings of certain areas of land that became depressed. And there was another effect that I'll mention, what happened in the Jamaica earthquake. If you have certain kinds of sandy soil ,and if it's moist, it can become like quicksand. There were incidences of land that would just depress. You might have a hole where the sandy soil was. You might have some trees tilt over, if they were rooted in this sort of soil. There were many accounts of that.
In fact, what scientists do now, and in present time, they might go to an area that they suspect had this kind of soil. And they would take samples, they would take these ground corings, and they would see through the levels of the sand or the clay or whatever, these explosions, if you will, they're called sand blasts or sand blows. So that would have occurred, and that's a great marker when people do research, because if you have these, you have to have an earthquake of magnitude at least five or above.
And let me digress for a moment and talk about the magnitude of these various earthquakes, just to give people a reference. The 1638 could have been a very powerful earthquake, maybe 6.8 on the Richter scale. The one in 1727 in Newbury, Massachusetts, maybe a little less, maybe a 5.7 or 5.8 on the Richter scale. The Boston earthquake could have been as powerful as a 6.1 or 6.3 on a Richter scale. And do remember that the Richter scale is logarithmic, simply meaning that if you go from a 6.1 or 6.2, it's a pretty large jump. So it just gives you an idea of the magnitude of these quakes. They were quite appreciable.
[00:26:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, 6.8, in modern times with modern structures, would be devastating.
[00:26:33] Kathleen Langone: Most certainly. And there's certainly a lot of predictive models that say these earthquakes will come back, and they will at some point. I don't know if they'll be in our lifetime, but they easily could occur again. And just to give some explanation of how these earthquakes occur, there are no active fault lines that we have here. We're very familiar with the San Andreas Fault in California, etc. But these are called intraplate earthquakes, so they're in between the spreading zones. So you think of the Mid Atlantic Ridge, which you might be familiar with, where you have the earth being formed and the crust sort of pushing both against the North American continent and towards Europe. So as this pressure keeps happening, something has to happen. It's like the middle of a graham cracker cracking, if you will. So this pressure comes into New England and old faults from many eons ago are basically activated, and you have these earthquakes.
[00:27:29] Josh Hutchinson: I didn't know that type of earthquake existed. I was thinking there must, surely there must be a fault. I live out in the West, so I'm much more familiar with the California earthquakes. I've experienced a couple of those. And knowing that there's activity in the middle of a plate, that's brand new.
[00:27:51] Kathleen Langone: Yeah, there is, because all these crusts, you put enough pressure on anything like that, and it's going to crack at some point.
[00:27:58] Sarah Jack: At what point would have they started reflecting on these scientifically, putting data together, would it always have been looking back to get information, or I'm just curious, when you have Governor Winthrop reporting what he saw and what the experience, when did the documenting become more scientific?
[00:28:24] Kathleen Langone: I think that you have to look at the rise of science of geology. I think geology came into its own more so in the 1800s, and maybe there was more scientific recording, etc. So back, I believe in the 1970s, there were seismic networks set up throughout New England and Southern Canada, seismographs, of course. And now we have Weston Observatory, which is basically an earthquake observatory in Weston, Massachusetts. They're associated with Boston College, and they're, if you think of it, a major monitoring station and their instruments will pick up anything in New England, as a matter of fact, anything from around the world. So there's quite a sophisticated network set up now, but I think that's really recent, in the last 60 or 70 years. I don't think there was much monitoring formally done before then.
[00:29:17] Josh Hutchinson: And how are these magnitudes of historic earthquakes, how is the magnitude calculated?
[00:29:26] Kathleen Langone: Very good question. Of course, back then, you know, in the 1600s and 1700s, you didn't have the concept of a Richter scale. You had a scale, which we now call the modified Mercalli scale, and that is a scale of felt effects. And I'll give you an example, back to colonial times. If you had, let's say, a pewter goblet fall off the table, that might be a magnitude like a Richter scale four or something like this. So a lot of these reports and what people like myself and many others did, they would record all of these physical effects and say, okay, if I've had a collapse of a chimney, that's maybe at least Richter five. So you would map these physical effects to what that would map into the modern day Richter scale.
And it's funny back then, because if we think of an earthquake coming through, we might say it would sound like a jet coming by or a train, but back then it was carriages coming by, like large, thunderous carriages. So there were different descriptions of how these things were back then.
[00:30:32] Josh Hutchinson: It's interesting.
[00:30:33] Sarah Jack: I'm curious what surprised you while you were researching. Did you have any insights that you didn't expect or what was most impactful to your research for what you found?
[00:30:49] Kathleen Langone: I think what surprised me the most was the tight correlation between religious life and these events. There was no question when these occurred, people would immediately think it was an act of God. There was no question. There was not a split second, gee, I wonder what that was. It was immediately thought of as an act of God. And how these ministers would use these earthquakes or things like the dark days to bring people into their parish and to help people stay to the way of God's and not be sinners. So again, it was a very integrated thing of these events going into the religion of the time.
[00:31:24] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it really shows how encompassing the interpretation of all the things happening, how tied it was to God's favor or God's displeasure and what their behavior should be. We look at the witch trials, and we see what a major piece of that the religion was, but it's very interesting to look at weather or these natural disasters and see that it didn't take them off guard. They didn't try to find a reason for it. They just knew, hey, this was part of God's working as well.
[00:32:03] Kathleen Langone: Now, from both of your research, what would you say was most frequently perceived that witchcraft would cause? We talked a little bit about that, but what would you say, witchcraft caused this in the village? What would that list of bad things be?
[00:32:18] Josh Hutchinson: Start with the death of animals and children. Death and sickness were the most common issues. There were some reports of weather related to witchcraft. There was one of a ship that was caught in a storm by witchcraft during the Salem Witch Trials. There was also a really infamous case, the North Berwick Witch Trials in Scotland, where King James VI of Scotland, who became the first of England,, his bride was on the way over from Denmark to meet him in Scotland to get married. And this huge storm nearly sank the ship and they blamed it on, I believe they ended up rounding up dozens of individuals as witches based on that storm. So there was some of that, but most commonly it was a neighborly dispute that led to an animal dying or was believed to have directly led to an animal dying or a child dying or a mysterious illness, maybe an early death.
[00:33:45] Sarah Jack: Another one that comes to mind is food or anything they might've been preparing, butter. It comes up on all the continents as being bewitched, and then even soup has been a culprit in more than one dispute.
[00:34:04] Josh Hutchinson: And the pudding in Springfield, Massachusetts, with the case of Hugh Parsons, he was believed to have bewitched a pudding, so it came out of the oven split evenly, as if by magic, and there were in Ireland, I know Andrew Sneddon mentioned the butter thieves and milk thieves that by witchcraft would take the milk from your cow directly. So then when you went to milk the cow, it was dry.
And there's some degree of nature, some degree of magnitude where a witch could cause a minor storm, but God would cause an hurricane or an earthquake, or was often responsible for large fires and plagues. Where a smaller, individual community episode of smallpox might be witchcraft, a grand plague sweeping would've been seen as requiring more power than what the devil could have given to a human.
[00:35:23] Kathleen Langone: Oh, that makes perfect sense. I could see plagues certainly being directly attributed to God and not a couple of weakling witches, if you will. That's very interesting, Josh.
[00:35:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there were limits to the power of witches based on the limits biblically to the devil's powers, because he was the source of all the witchcraft powers, at least in the eyes of the ministers and the elite. Now, the folk beliefs in witchcraft were largely just based on believing that certain people had innate abilities to perform magical feats, but again, that there would be, presumably be, some limits on what a human can do compared to what a demon or a devil or some more advanced being could do.
[00:36:14] Sarah Jack: Katherine Harrison had too much good luck, and they would attribute her cattle responding to her well to her witchcraft.
[00:36:26] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. She called to her cattle, and her cattle came to her more quickly than other people's cattles came to them. There were like multiple witnesses to this event. She went out and she said some, something that to the hearers sounded like a magical phrase. It was like a nonsense word. And she just shouted this to her cattle, and then they came at a gallop, according to the witnesses. There were interesting effects with livestock.
[00:37:01] Kathleen Langone: So for your listeners out there, if you Google New England earthquakes, there's a lot of great online resources. There's certainly a web page for Weston Observatory, which I mentioned is a very active observatory now. And for those living in New England, you just might want to know about how to deal with an earthquake if it occurs. It wouldn't be a bad thing to read.
[00:37:22] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[00:37:24] Mary Bingham: Sashiprava Bindhani, a lawyer, was the first advocate to meet with me, a board member representing End Witch Hunts. Her beautiful smile lit up my phone screen last July and we have remained in touch. Sashi relayed how she put measures into place to slow the spread of witch hunts in her home state of Odisha, India.
Her reasons? To protect women from witch hunts. After all, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights recognizes that both men and women deserve equal protection under the law. Before 2014, anyone who accused a woman to be a Dayan or a Dhani, the Odisha words for witch, suffered little consequence.
Sashi's hard work resulted in the Odisha Prevention of Witch Hunting Act and was signed by the governor in 2014. Anyone who now accuses a woman to be a die in could be imprisoned up to three years and or pay a fine of one thousand rupees, which is twelve US dollars. Thank you, Sashi.
[00:38:27] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:38:29] Josh Hutchinson: And here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
End Witch Hunts News. End Witch Hunts is a 501c3 non profit organization. End Witch Hunts is a movement to stop the deadly practice of witch hunting around the world. Our vision is a world without witch hunts, where all victims are exonerated, and modern victims and their families receive justice. Your financial support empowers us to educate and advocate. Your donation is tax deductible. Please keep us in mind when you give your holiday charitable gifts. Thank you for supporting our podcast project. Go to the show notes to see how to donate to our nonprofit organization and podcast.
Our newest project, the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, is seeking formal exoneration for those convicted as witches in Boston, and asking for a formal apology for all those documented to have suffered in the colony witch trials. We have researched these individuals, and they each have a story of innocence, injustice, and devastating life altering consequences due to false witchcraft accusations.
We want to address this colony wide miscarriage of justice with an amendment to the previous legislation that has already exonerated those convicted in the 1692 Salem Witch trials. Please sign and then share the petition change.org/witchtrials to show your support.
To learn more about this project and how you can get involved, visit Massachusettswitchtrials.org. Our podcast creator, Josh Hutchinson, and Professor Emerson Baker had a great conversation last week on GBH News Greater Boston about the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project. Watch it today to hear about the significance of acknowledging the five innocent women who hanged in Boston for witchcraft. Margaret Jones, Alice Lake, Elizabeth Kendall. Ann Hibbins and Goody Glover.
An amendment to previous legislation is all that it takes to clear their names. It's the right thing to do. It's an easy thing to do, but someone in the Massachusetts General Court has to initiate the amendment. Thank you for stepping up and making a difference. If you live in Massachusetts, you can share this project with your legislative representatives and ask them to propose the amendment. If you are a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, we need you to lead or collaborate on this amendment effort now. Please consider reaching out to the project so that we can support you as you propose or support such an amendment. Please take action, and let's work together to help close a chapter of American history that calls out to us all for answers.
[00:41:04] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:41:06] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:41:08] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:41:12] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:41:14] Josh Hutchinson: Please rate and review wherever you get your podcasts and hit that subscribe button.
[00:41:19] Sarah Jack: Go look at our other episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:41:24] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[00:41:27] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to help end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:41:32] Josh Hutchinson: To support the show, please make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop or merch from our Zazzle shop, links are in the show description.
[00:41:43] Sarah Jack: Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast? Join us as a super listener. Your super listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.
[00:41:53] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

November 9, 2023

Ending Witch-Hunts in India with Samantha Spence and Amit Anand

The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

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Show Notes

Today we talk about the complexities of witch hunting across India with advocates Dr. Samantha Spence and Dr. Amit Anand from the organization, The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. This conversation highlights how intersectional factors such as legislation, culture, religion, superstition, gender, and status tie into the manifestation of witchcraft fear and resultant violence in unique communities. What solutions can work on the ground?

We consider: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?

Links

Interview with Greater Boston, Josh Hutchinson, and Dr. Emerson Baker (at 15:38)

Two of Windsor: Accused and Exonerated of Witchcraft with Beth Caruso

Preservation Connecticut Presentation: Sarah Jack and Josh Hutchinson

Fox Live Now, Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack

Before there was Salem, there was Connecticut with Dr. Kathy Hermes and Sarah Jack

Washington Post, Josh Hutchinson Interview

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts

Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.

[00:00:13] Josh Hutchinson: I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:15] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today's guests, Dr. Samantha Spence and Dr. Amit Anand, are human rights advocates and will be speaking to us primarily about the witch hunting situation in India.
[00:00:29] Josh Hutchinson: They represent the organization, the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices.
Could you please introduce yourselves?
[00:00:41] Amit Anand: I am Dr. Amit Anand. I am currently working as a lecturer in law at the School of Legal Studies, REVA University, Bangalore, India. I Recently graduated with a PhD in law from Lancaster University, UK. The topic of my research was violence against women in India, where I was focusing on the practice of witchcraft, honor killing, and temple prostitution. I also hold an LLM in Human Rights Law from the University of Reading, UK and my research interests, they lie in the area of international human rights law, particularly on gender based violence and caste based discrimination in India.
[00:01:20] Samantha Spence: My name is Dr. Samantha Spence. I am the course director for postgraduate studies in law at Staffordshire University in the UK. I have been working on this issue for over 10 years now. My research is predominantly around harmful practices in women. And my PhD I did at Lancaster University, where I met Amit, was on witchcraft accusations and persecutions as a marginalization mechanism of women. So the predominant focus of my research is international human rights and women's rights and marginalized communities.
[00:01:59] Josh Hutchinson: And you're both part of very important organizations, international NGOs that are working to address the situation of witchcraft and sorcery accusation related violence. . .
[00:02:16] Samantha Spence: So the International Network came about from essentially there was a group of us that started this work many years ago. It was started originally by I. K., so Ikponwosa Ero, who was the previous mandate holder for albinism at the U.N. and Charlotte Baker at Lancaster and Gary Foxcroft who had WHRIN, which was the Witchcraft and Human Rights organization. Being at Lancaster, I jumped in due to similar research areas. And then the International Network is basically the group of people who worked on this issue from the start and have continued on this journey. So I'm the co director of the International Network with Miranda Forsyth, who I believe has been interviewed also. And then we have a variety of international advisory board members, of which Amit is one.
[00:03:08] Sarah Jack: What do listeners need to know about the witch hunting situation in India?
[00:03:14] Amit Anand: Okay so the witch hunting situation in India or witchcraft accusations, it's a very complex phenomenon here in India. We can't really understand it from one perspective, but mostly overall what I found in my research was that it's very gender-specific. So most of the victims are women, and these are women who are already marginalized because of their status in society. And this again depends on several factors. So status in society is not just about rich or poor, but then there are different social markers on which people are divided here in India. It could be religion, it could be caste. So there are these intersecting factors, but like I said, it's very gender-specific. And because India is mostly set to be a patriarchal society, so then there is also this male dominance and subordination of women just to safeguard male supremacy. So it's a very complex issue, and that's why it's still something that's not clearly talked about.
People have though, written about this but very, very briefly. And there is very less literature or very less dialogue from a legal perspective. Nothing much on the human rights violations front. Because the society is complex and then again, talking about gender-based violence or witchcraft accusation or witch-hunting, which is a part of that.
It makes it all the more complex, so there are these different factors that we really need to take into consideration to understand why this practice still happens in 21st century India, despite there being several legislations in place and despite the law saying that everyone's rights should be protected, there are these different factors which are very complex but we do need to consider all of them and if you want to understand why this happens.
[00:05:11] Samantha Spence: For me, I find, I agree with what Amit has said, and I think the problem is because this belief in witchcraft, it encompasses these different areas, so religion and culture and superstition, and underlying that is these concepts of fear and evil. And if you put all these together, this is problematic, because people don't want to challenge any of these.
And superstition is rife in India, and it's this misconception that specific behavior can actually influence events, but they're unrelated. Because what it does as superstition is it creates this link between an action and an outcome, but the reality is that there's no causality there. And this culmination of superstition and evil and fear is problematic, because it regulates society. People are afraid to challenge it, and it regulates through fear. So it provides this kind of discourse, let's just say, as to, it explains that why things are happening, but it doesn't actually give the answers.
But the fear itself is enough for people not to challenge it. And as Amit said, in India, there's a patriarchal society and women particularly are completely unable to challenge it and they become the victims and the intersectionality there of the caste system and all these other factors just perpetuates this kind of narrative of witchcraft, because it's prevalent, and it's foolproof. How do you counteract this discourse? You can't. Yeah it's so complex, different manifestations in different places, but for me that, there's still the underlying cause there is this fear.
[00:06:47] Josh Hutchinson: There are many different states in India, many different cultures. How do the witchcraft beliefs, how do they differ across those cultures?
[00:07:00] Amit Anand: I guess there are certain things that tie them together, but in practice is what they differ. So in terms of accusations, how that happens, to whom it happens, what happens after the accusations, that's something that differs in nature. The kind of violence that is inflicted, that could differ, but what ties them together, like Sam said, is superstitious beliefs and that's just the starting point.
And you know that places where this happens, people are not educated very poor literacy rates. So these superstitious beliefs, which are often strengthened by folklore and myths, they allow malicious intent to spread rapidly within these communities and then create a sense of fear, which is then used by a certain group of people who hold some kind of power and then want to dominate and control women. And then comes the accusation and which follows violence.
Superstitious beliefs, fear of evil eye, these are things that you will find are common. How they are understood might differ. When a woman is accused of being a witch, that might differ. How the violence is conducted, that might differ. But there are a few things which tie all of this together, but it's very difficult to pinpoint what those factors are because all these separate places, they tend to believe in things differently and how they relate with the nature or how much fear or superstition actually works in favor of then prolonging witchcraft accusation, that might differ. So it's very, what's the source of all of this? Is it religion? Is it something else? Is religion used as a tool to then perhaps see that our beliefs are right, so it's very difficult to pinpoint when it has started, how it has started but yeah it, they are different in different places, but then if you see it all in one place, you will realize that there are similarities and that's why the law can, in some sense, work on the ground, but then again, these social realities have to be taken into account.
[00:09:05] Josh Hutchinson: Then is there a need for different approaches in different places?
[00:09:12] Amit Anand: Yes, definitely. I would say that, for instance, the place that I come from, that's the state of Jharkhand, and that tops the list of witchcraft accusations in the entire country. The government collects records with respect to witchcraft accusations and mostly accusations resulting in violence and in the death of the victims, which are mostly women. So my state has a lot of killings over the last 10 years. So if you take the data says that from 2010 to 2021, there are close to 1500 people who died in my state alone. So that's a huge that's a very big data and that's very disturbing.
But in, so how my state sees it, the literacy rate isn't high in my home state, but despite all of that, we do have a state based legislation, so it's a legislation that doesn't cover the entire country but only restricted to my state, but the legislation, it's very weak in nature. In terms of punishment that it gives, it's just three months of imprisonment, even if you are accused of killing a woman who was accused of being a witch. So if you have accused her and the violence happens and she is dead, then the maximum punishment that you get is just three months of imprisonment.
So obviously, the law hasn't really looked at the social reality or what it can actually do in terms of practice but my state essentially what it's focusing on and this is, again, replicated in other parts of the country, as well, is about social awareness. So they are conducting camps, trying to educate people, and this is where in, nGOs come in picture. The state government has joined hands with local NGOs and is trying to educate people in villages. It's actually reaching out to survivors of witchcraft accusations, because they know what has happened to them. And if they come out and speak to other people, then whatever it is that they say, their story will have more impact than the government telling people not to do it.
So they have joined hands with survivors, tried to locate them, tried to bring them in the forefront, and then take these people out again in the villages and then try to explain to people that whatever it is that you believe is completely against the law and then how you believe that how it manifests in violence, then that's, again, a very huge violation of the right of the victim.
But this is a good way of doing it, but the government, again, is slow. If there are budget cuts, it's not a priority. Again there was a very big news that the government plans to do it. They actually started doing it, but then they stopped midway, because they said we don't have funds, there are other problems that we need to focus on.
Other states tried to replicate this, but they haven't really moved far ahead. It's a problem. It's a very big problem. They do acknowledge, but then there isn't that will to actually do something about it. So that's why most NGOs on the ground are even struggling to, to get all these separate state governments on board together and then force the center to pass a national law. Very many challenges in different parts of the country.
[00:12:17] Sarah Jack: Yeah. I can see what a challenge it would be. You have two facets. You have the need for the people in society to understand that the violence is not okay, and you have your victims the survivors with the message there. And then you have... your message to the leadership that, to change that mindset and to find a drive for collaboration across the states. That's a lot. That's a big mission.
[00:12:49] Samantha Spence: Yeah, I think the law doesn't work in isolation. As lawyers, we'll both say, laws, unfortunately, don't work all the time. They still don't work in the UK, for example. We still, people still murder people. This is the reality of life. But because it's so complex, it's not a priority. And what you're dealing with is these issues of the intertwining. Is it religious? Is it cultural? What's it driven by? And people don't want to challenge that. And as a government, why would you? You want to maintain the status quo and keep the people happy. And this is where the problem lies. And also that people aren't educated on the laws, and the laws then aren't, they could be there, but then they're not implemented because there's corruption. And like I say, if you deeply, if you believe something so deeply and passionately, then a law is not going to change that.
It's this kind of social awareness, like Amit says, in these campaigns, and there's some fantastic people, Dr. Dinesh Mishra, for example, he has an awareness of superstition, and he's an ophthalmologist by trade, so he's a scientific doctor, and he goes around to try and disprove some of these theories. But again, you can't, it's not something that will change overnight, and you need to empower people, but it's also very hard to empower people in a society where that's not the done thing.
Even internationally, as well, we actually held a recent event at the UN, and we asked mandate holders there and a lot of them weren't aware. We have the resolution through, but they still weren't aware. And when you discuss it, "oh yeah. That's just a cultural thing." But the reality is okay, but people are dying. People are suffering here. And this is why it's so complex. People just don't want to challenge this narrative.
[00:14:33] Amit Anand: I just wanted to add a minor point. So I was reading up about uh, witchcraft and what's the latest that is happening in India. So I simply found out that in the month of May, there's an article that was written in the New York Times, which was focusing on witchcraft situations in India. And it largely focused on the problem of acknowledgement, that we need to understand that yes, it happens, witchcraft accusations, witch hunting, killing in the name of witchcraft accusation does happen, but it mostly happens in places that are remote, people are not very literate. They don't know about the laws.
But we have to keep in mind that a society like India, even in educated classes or people that are well off or in metropolitan cities, people do believe in such things. They might not agree with the killing, but there are things if you ask them that, is there evil eye existence, they would say yes, they would be mindful that there is magic or superstition, some form of superstition exists and almost every Indian does believe in some sort of superstition. It might not be to the extent of killing someone, but they do relate to these things, sorcery, supernatural entities, and they do different things to, to safeguard their personal interests.
But then you look at these communities where all these killings happen, and their belief system is tied very heavily with how they associate themselves with nature. And then religion also has a very big role to play in that. And it's very difficult to disassociate these two things. So religion on one side and your belief system, which is again very complex and what actually goes into it, it's very difficult to experience. So is religion then only used as a tool to then spend on the belief system or the belief system? Is it standing on its own?
The educated class on one side, when it listens or when it hears about such killings, it automatically brushes all of this away, saying that this is something wrong, it's killing people in the name of witchcraft or witchcraft accusations is wrong, but then they don't do anything to stop it because they also in some ways play some sort of a role in then advancing superstition or because they can't then detach themselves from that very fact because their belief system, their religion also teaches them something about good people, inherently good people, inherently bad people. There is good and then there is evil, and mostly evil is associated with with women.
And because they're things are said they have a very weak nature from the very beginning, so they are, they could be attracted to evil easily, and if that happens, then the men need to jump in and safeguard the interests of society, and one way of doing that is by removing these women from the picture, and you could kill them, and then that still would be right, because it's, the good is winning over the bad, and it's how that could be wrong in any sense, so it's It's a very complex thing, like how Sam also said that if we are trying to find solutions, we are at a stage when we don't even know what the right questions are to which we are trying to find answers to.
So there are a lot, many questions, which we haven't even thought of which might play a very big role in actually moving forward with solutions that could that could really work on the ground. So there are these.
[00:17:58] Sarah Jack: It appears that the marginalization is something that many women in the country in different states are really trying to rise above and then you've got this constant branding of women as evil. That's such a complex thing.
[00:18:20] Samantha Spence: Complex, it's intersectional, because, let's take India, so you've got women, you've got the caste system, you've got patriarchy, you've got culture, you've got belief, superstition, religion, throw it all together, and you've got a mix that no one wants to tackle, and unfortunately in society, women are the other. They always have been, and we fight and fight, and we're still fighting. So imagine, and that's in places where we think we are quite modernized and democratic. We're still fighting.
And what witchcraft does is it gives people answers, as Amit was saying, then it gives people answers to the things that they don't have an answer for. Something bad happens, then we always want an answer. Why? Why has it happened to me? Why has it happened to them? And what it does, it provides the cause, because it would say, it's distinguishing between the how and the why, and we know sometimes that it's just bad luck. But actually, they're looking for someone to blame, and how does that work? Someone's daughter died from a disease? Oh, she's killed them. She looked at them a certain way, and you think, wow, really?
But yeah it's really, people genuinely believe, and it's how, it's not to say that people can't believe, that's not. It's how you manage those beliefs. It's how it's manifested, and it's that next step into, you might believe that something's happened, but then actually going and accusing somebody that is completely innocent in mob violence, which is quite often.
Again, and even the stronger women would say, Oh, she's not a witch. Oh she must be a witch as well. And it's foolproof. There's a discourse, and that's why it's used, but it's used to, um, manipulate, it's used to get answers, it's used to deal with conflict, so when it's the election time, it's rife, everybody's accusing everybody else, and these are politicians, but it's also, for me, used to deal with difference. If someone's a little bit different, and we're not quite sure how to understand that, then there must be something wrong. Mental health, for example, elderly people with Alzheimer's, widows, or you want to get rid of someone. It's a perfect example of what we'll do is we'll do this. And my question has always been, and I still don't know the answer to this and I think, I always discuss, do people actually deeply believe the people that propagate, say the witch doctors or shamans, whatever you want to call them. And they can say, this can cure whatever. Do they actually believe that? And I don't know the answer to that, because I would say no, it's a manipulation, because what we have now is I, this term spiritual entrepreneurs, I think Jean LaFontaine said many, many years ago, people now manipulate it to make money.
And this is what we've seen for persons with albinism in Africa, this kind of, as I. K. said, menu of, oh what you need to do is go and get the arm of such a person and this, and that will cure whatever you've come, and they're paying money for it, and we see it here with people are paying for their children to be exorcised from the devil when maybe they've just wet the bed, or they've got some issues there that are logically explained, and it's a manipulation, and that manipulation is dangerous. And I think this is what takes it to the next level.
So you've got an understanding here of where people genuinely are looking for answers to questions, but then it goes a step further and it becomes manipulating. So I know we can get something out of this. We can get land, we can get money, and that's where it becomes even more dangerous. And I don't know how you stop that. Because it's everywhere. That seems to be a similarity I've found globally now. It's become monetarized as such. And when money's involved, what do you do?
[00:22:03] Amit Anand: I just want to add two points to what Sam just said. One thing was, which I was speaking about earlier, which was about how the educated class in India also believes in some form of superstition. In my research, I did find that you with respect to the existence of the evil eye, there are different notions attached to it but that's in some ways common with with the most with all the educated classes regardless of which part of the country they are, they believe in certain things, so there are things like witches are often accused of casting the evil eye, and then the term witches, which is, again, only associated with women and witch hunters or witch doctors are always men is again a very different debate.
So it's said that these women, they cast the evil eye mostly on children and men. And it is said that children who are very young are at high risk of being harmed by witches. So people generally are asked to be careful around old, sterile women and women who have had a miscarriage. And when a child is frequently ill, it is usually said that there must be a witch was at work. So there are these things that go around families and regardless of how educated you are, you do believe that there are these bad people out there. There are these bad things, and we need to do everything that we can to protect our loved ones.
So you will find people, most people in India, wearing amulets, rings, threads around their waists, they'll have lockets with some incantations. All of these things they'll fairly regularly devote themselves to performing different rituals, either, either on their own or with the help of either a witch doctor or someone else, just so as to ward away the evil eye out of their homes.
Another thing that I wanted to point out was about property disputes, and this is something that Sam also touched upon, is property dispute is one of the main reasons for witchcraft accusations in India, and this happens because you have a woman who is single, might be a widow as well, and she has some property in her name. And then you have her own family members, male family members. Very rarely would it be a stranger who accuses her of being a witch. Mostly it will be men in her own family who does that to her, just because they have the intention of grabbing the property. So property disputes is one of the very big reasons for witchcraft accusations, and there's one other point that's added to it.
So it's often said, it's also true that witchcraft accusation comes from men that belong to, say, a higher class or a higher caste, and that's, and these men do it to women of lower class and lower caste. But when you look at property dispute, that within the family itself, it could be a family that's already marginalized. And the men and women belong to the same family, to the same downtrodden family and the same caste, but then these men are doing it to their women, so there isn't a higher class man or a high caste man involved here. The family is doing it to one of her own, just because she has a property in her name and she can't really stand up for herself.
But the other way is also true that generally it happens from a higher class or a higher caste man to a lower class or a lower caste woman. So it's a property dispute. The main motive is to grab the property, but then how do you do it? Superstition, fear, gossip, rumor, all these things help you then do that. And you say that you, someone in your family had some disease or something didn't work out. It could be a very minor thing, but you tend to then blame it on the woman just so as to label her as a witch and then take away her property.
[00:25:56] Samantha Spence: It removes your responsibility, then, if you blame somebody else, it's somebody else's fault, and it's just removing, so it absolves that person of any responsibility whatsoever and puts it onto the person who's completely innocent.
[00:26:08] Josh Hutchinson: Such a good point. You spoke earlier about the difficulties in approaching this culturally, because no one wants to interfere with another group's culture. However, every culture has these negative consequences somewhere within it, and we all need to work to address those things. So how do you tackle the negative without interfering with the positive aspects?
[00:26:46] Samantha Spence: In international human rights, you have this theory of universalism and cultural relativism, and there's long been the argument that human rights are universal to all, and the counter argument is, yeah, but not in our culture. In our culture, we believe this. As I said, it's not so much tackling the belief as it is the manifestation of the belief, because everybody believes you can't go over and as Amit well knows, this happened to me recently in India, why are you over here telling us how to behave?
And it's that's not what it's about. It's about take away all that, and it's about the women and the victims. And I, for me, these, oh it's our culture, this, it just becomes an excuse or a layer to justify, and the reality is that people are being killed, that's the reality, that's what we're trying to stop. We're not coming to take away your culture, or whatever you believe in, that's not my right to do. But what... My, I feel my right is to do is to protect these people that cannot speak for themselves and you provide that voice there, but of course you're always going to get these labels because people don't want to change the status quo.
That's the way it works. If a system is working based on these characteristics, then why would they want to change it, those in power? Why would you want to empower women and give them a voice? Look what's happening across the world. We need to shut them down. So for me, the. The UN, universalism is supposed to be there, but countries very often use this cultural relativism argument.
And I completely agree, culture is different everywhere. I mean, Even in the UK, from the north to the south, it's very different in people. I'm a northerner, my accents can tell, but it depends all over. Take all that away though, what is the issue? The issue is that people are being harmed, people are being killed and discriminated against. And that's, for me, the way I look at it, because you can't challenge the others. I can't anyway, because I don't live in that particular society or culture, and you don't want to come across as that you are coming across with your Western values, which is something else that has been thrown there.
Again, that's not the case. It's not Western values. The values are that people are dying. And that's everybody's values. And we need to sort it. How? We don't know. But yeah, let's get to the crux of the issue and stop making excuses about why we're doing it.
[00:29:05] Amit Anand: Yeah. There's also, if we are focusing only on the law or the legal aspect or looking at it from the very human rights centric, taking that approach, then I guess we tend to, at some point, we will stumble upon power and authority, these two, these two words, in a society like India. So even if we are not talking about culture or belief system or witchcraft accusation or what that is, we can't really turn a blind eye to the fact that there is someone dying or getting seriously injured because of what's happening.
But if we are only looking at it from a very legal point of things, we'll know that it's about control. It's about power and authority and which is directly going against right to life or equality before law. To some extent, if we take help of the law, it can solve the problem to some extent, but then we then need to really tell people that why is it that this person is a victim of why are we calling this person a victim?
Because to the ones who are doing it, that person isn't a victim. That person is the bad guy, the bad person. So they feel that whatever their actions is all good. It's good. It's getting a very big support from the community that nobody's thinking that it's wrong. But if you are looking from the victim's perspective or what the law actually tells these people is that there is a victim involved here and it's about what you people are doing is you are trying to make sure that the status quo doesn't change. You want to hold on to the power, you want to hold on to the authority that you get by virtue of using all of these things to then manipulate the larger society, and then they back you up with whatever it is that you are doing. So again, it's about gender relations, it's about, it's mostly about men who are trying to control gender relations through various rules, regulations that they often impose on women. And then women who do not abide by them, who are vocal, who want to fight for their rights, then they are the ones who get punished. And witchcraft accusation is just one part of it. Women have been punished for being vocal in different ways. Domestic violence, rape, domestic abuse, gender based crimes. There are so many offenses that and so many different forms of punishment that women have to bear and go through because they are trying to be vocal and witchcraft accusation is a part of all of this. It's one form of that larger punishment that is done to women for just being, just trying to be vocal, just trying to stand up for themselves.
To some extent, if you are taking the legal perspective or the human rights centric approach it's, I'm not saying that it won't work, it works, but then it can only go so far. Beyond a certain point, I believe the law does not know what more it can do. It can specify the rule. It can tell you if you do this offense, that's the punishment that you will get, but our focus shouldn't be that, and to pass a law is a very good thing, but we should try to focus on prevention rather than punishing people for having committed a very gruesome offence.
If we are capable of at least in some ways getting to a point where we can actually prevent these things, then I guess it would make a much more sense. And then we can say, turn around and say that society actually learned a few things that we try to make sure that it won't happen. Because if it does, the law obviously is there, but our focus should be about preventing it rather than strengthening the law up to a point wherein maybe to some extent, it doesn't really make that much sense in paper, because at some point, it's going to then attack culture, it's going to attack religion, but I don't think that would help, because you would then, in some ways, be violating the rights of other people, as well. You would be telling them that this is wrong, you don't believe in these things, that shouldn't be the thing. And this is where I guess a lot of confusion exists, that you're not telling you not to believe, you're telling you to believe, but then you also should be mindful of other people's right. You would believe, or whatever it is that you hold close to yourself shouldn't then lead up to violent crimes, shouldn't then encourage other people to do violent crimes. And this is where both law and then society both these different factors should then actually work together to then try and find a compromise, a solution that is close to a compromise so that the violence stops.
[00:33:49] Samantha Spence: Yeah, I'll just jump on that. As women are the bearers of their own culture and places the rights are assigned to them. It depends on their religion, ethnicity, class, caste, and that's fine. But my question is, and it touched on what Amit has just said, how can women be equal legally if they're not equal socially?
The answer is, they can't. It's impossible. I go back, you can have all the laws in the world, but if you're not equal in society, then it doesn't matter. It's as simple as that. And that is the problem. And that will always continue to be the problem until we sort that out. And people, again, don't want to sort that out because the power and control, the status quo it's there throughout the world, and people don't want others to get above the station, and they want to keep people in their place, because when people become outspoken and they start to get educated, they start to challenge. People in, in power don't want that. That's the problem. You need to be equal in society before you can be equal legally. And we don't have that as women, unfortunately.
[00:34:56] Josh Hutchinson: And how do you go about solving that?
[00:35:01] Samantha Spence: That's the question, isn't it? For me, I think you give women the tools to empower themselves. But again, that's difficult in different societies and situations. Education, I think you educate and you make people aware within their own cultures. Again, this is pointless me coming and telling somebody from a completely different culture how to live their life. That wouldn't, that's not right.
There's many NGOs, smaller NGOs that are working within their own languages and within their own cultures to make this understanding of how it works for them. There's not a one size fits all model, there's no magic bullet. It's little steps. We've been taking little steps for years, and it's little steps. There's a lot to overcome and I'm really glad that we have people like Amit, for example, who, who are men, who are fighting this cause, because that's what we need. We need everybody. Men can be part of the problem, but they're also part of the solution, and we need that. We need everybody to work together, because if everybody's not working together, then you're not going to win this battle. And that's what we need, a more holistic approach of everybody on the same page. How we get that? If you find out, please tell me.
[00:36:14] Sarah Jack: But we do, we need to work across the cultures, across the miles, around the globe, together like that.
[00:36:26] Samantha Spence: Across the cultures is that, as we go back, people are dying. People are suffering. That's cross cultural. That's nothing to do with any of those excuses or, oh no, not here. No, people are dying. We need to sort that. We need to empower people, because the levels of violence are horrific.
And there's a phrase that was used for women, which is womb to tomb. So from the very start with female infanticide, right to the very end of widows being murdered, all the way through is this cycle of violence. And it needs to stop. It just cannot continue. And I think we just keep trying and trying to get the message across as a community. That's all we can do.
[00:37:10] Josh Hutchinson: And as Sarah mentioned, this is happening globally, and I think it's important to note that other nations are facing this problem. Many are. Killings like this even happen in the U. S. occasionally, so it is a problem that's common to probably every culture but it sounds like every culture is using the same excuse or reason for not dealing with it.
[00:37:45] Samantha Spence: Very much yeah, I think the problem is state impunity doesn't happen here. It's not our problem. And you see it on the reports that come through from the UN special rapporteurs that go into a country and the country will completely deny all knowledge of it happening. And until it's actually realized that there's a problem, then nothing will be done about it.
And, of course, there's this phrase in the UK, it's, yes, it's the headline is tomorrow's chip paper, because the world moves on, it doesn't become a priority, something else happens and something else happens and takes over and that will always be the case, and that's been the case for the rights of women for forever. You keep fighting and fighting, this is just another manipulation and a way to, of controlling.
[00:38:31] Amit Anand: Yeah, a lot of the debate is. In India, it's mostly about what exactly is violence against women, or what is gender based discrimination? Till today, there isn't a very clear understanding of what these things are, let alone different forms of violence against women or different forms of gender based discrimination.
We have the harshest law on the offense of rape, but then we still haven't been able to put an end to it, or at least try and bring down the crime rates of the offense of rape, because the society thinks that young men have this right to, to rape women if they reject their proposal for marriage or if they reject their sexual advances. So they feel that it's the right thing to do. And that's where the problem lies, that we just don't know what is violence against women and what our behavior or our acts could then fit into violence against women. And then we are talking about something as complex as witchcraft accusation. Most people in India would say these are the things of movies and folklore and myths and it doesn't happen in the country, but it does happen. But we are still struggling to get past what is violence against women and then we are trying to tell them even something which is more complex and still deeper and we are trying to educate people about witchcraft accusation and this is happening and it's complex, there is culture involved, religion involved, gender relations. Solutions could be in policymaking, in education, in just raising awareness, there could be things that we haven't even thought about that could work in terms of a solution, giving voices to survivors could be one thing.
Yeah, the discourse around violence against women in India is very weak, and we are trying to then build it, build something on that weaker structure, which again, That's why I think most attempts have failed to actually bring some change on the ground because the foundation itself isn't strong enough. And then we are trying to then make sure that we sustain on that weaker foundation this idea of witchcraft accusations and why do we need to stop them? So like I said, it's a, it's a very complex issue. It has links in almost every other aspect of life and how people live and how they relate to each other in India.
And I think the problem starts from there. And then it becomes something entirely different when it takes the form of witchcraft accusations and witch killings in the name of men, mostly labeling women as witches. Yeah we still don't know how it starts, where it starts. Is there even a starting point? And because of these challenges, we just don't know where to look for solutions, but then just because there are these problems, we shouldn't stop talking about the problem and trying to focus on the solutions, because if we then just give up, then we aren't actually helping the victims or the survivors, that it's a very long, it's a very long fight, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't at least try to speak and educate the ones whom they can about these things.
So if that starts, then perhaps because of that could be leading up to a snowball effect and we could then educate a lot, many people and then perhaps some change, or at least we'll try to move towards some change in terms of at least bringing down these violent crimes, even if you can't really stop them, at least just trying and bringing down the, the crime rates, especially with related to witchcraft accusations and killings.
[00:42:13] Samantha Spence: I think Amit just hit the nail on the head, though, it was we need to talk about it, start the conversations, and then let's see where it takes us, because I teach in the UK, and I used to teach, and they'd go, what, he what, what, historically, you're going, no, now, this is happening now, and people aren't aware it's happening now, and we need to get the conversations out there. And the more we can do that in any shape or form, it starts to create this dialogue, whether people agree or disagree. It doesn't matter, people are still talking about it. But it still goes back to this issue in society of we need the equality in society.
We need that stable foundation that Amit was saying. If you're building a house, you wouldn't build it on mud, you'd have a solid foundation on which to build on. And we haven't got that. So these awareness campaigns and these conversations are good, but we also need a joined-up approach, because we found that when we were starting the network that there's so many people working on this that we weren't aware of, and we all need to come together because it's more powerful when you come together, and it gives you that gravitas to move forward.
But these conversations and things like this podcast are good because it gets people thinking about, Oh my God, I didn't realize that was happening. Oh, it doesn't happen in our country. I think you'll find it does. Let's try and keep the conversations going. And also it affects everybody. I think the other thing I find is, Oh, it's not my problem. It is, it's everybody's problem. And we all need to step up and deal with it. How we do that, I don't know the answer, but little steps of moving forward as opposed to just completely denying or saying it's nothing to do with us. Yeah.
[00:43:54] Josh Hutchinson: Your answers have been so enlightening and eloquent. I appreciate you both giving us your time and your best. And this has been so wonderful. Is there anything else that you wanted to be sure that you were able to say today?
[00:44:15] Samantha Spence: Thank you for the opportunity and thank you for trying to help raise this awareness. We need more, definitely.
[00:44:23] Amit Anand: I would say the same that it's important to have platforms like this where you can talk about things like these, because in societies where this is happening, you might not get the opportunity to talk about something as sensitive as this, because people just wouldn't want to know about this for whatever reason. So whatever opportunity you get to just get the message out should just grab that opportunity and thank you for allowing us to speak about something that's very close to us and just giving us this chance to talk about something as sensitive as witchcraft accusations. Thank you.
[00:45:03] Samantha Spence: Never just accept, always challenge, always ask why. I always say to my students, why? Ask those questions, because you don't know what answers you're going to get, but if you don't challenge, and you carry on to accept, then, yeah, things won't change. Culture changes, the world changes, and we need to enable the change for good and help people, as opposed to this, it's not my problem. That doesn't get us anywhere.
[00:45:31] Josh Hutchinson: Now, Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.
[00:45:34] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts News. End Witch Hunts is a 501c3 non profit organization. Our Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project is actively educating about the history of hundreds of witch trial victims from the Massachusetts Bay Colony who have not been acknowledged for their suffering of such a miscarriage of justice. We are seeking formal exoneration for those convicted as witches and executed in Boston and an apology for all those documented to have suffered in the colony witch trials. We want to make this happen with an amendment to the previous legislation that has already exonerated those convicted and executed in the 1692 Salem Witch Trials. Please sign and then share the petition to show your support at change.org/witch trials. To learn more about this project and how you can get involved, visit Massachusettswitchtrials.org.
But don't stop there. If you live in Massachusetts, you can share this project with your legislative representatives and ask them to get involved. If you are a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, we need you to lead or collaborate on this amendment effort. Please consider reaching out to the project so that we can support you as you propose or support such an amendment. Please take action and work together to help close a chapter of American history that calls out to us all for answers.
Most citizens of Earth who have been accused, attacked, or killed as witches are not known and have not been remembered. We only know of and memorialize a handful of witch hunt victims from across time. The witch hunts of today are more than a remnant of witch trials and witch hunts past. They are the bulk of the victims. Like before, the women, men, and children are unjustly blamed and feared. They are unjustly punished. We must keep working to make people aware that witch hunts are not simply the result of superstition and hysteria, but rather a fundamental human reaction to pressure and strife, an outcome of power over the vulnerable, intertwined within all cultures and religion. There are always multiple factors that are repeatedly found in combination.
Informed advocates in countries gripped by witch hunts are asking us for our acknowledgement and support. You should not think, I wish I could help. Helping is simply you sharing the information in conversation and on your social media. Helping is you searching out knowledge about what is happening. Help by talking about what they told us today. Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast supports the efforts to end witch hunts.
We never stop educating. You can continue to learn. Check today's show notes for links to recent news media and presentations by Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project members Sarah Jack, Josh Hutchinson, Beth Caruso, and Kathy Hermes. Does your company or organization want to invite us to present witch trial history and anti-witch-hunt advocacy? Please contact us. Your partnership helps to end witch hunts. The End Witch Hunts website has information on active witch-hunt advocacy organizations. Go and learn more. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. To support us, purchase books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or make a financial contribution to our organization. Our links are in the show description.
[00:48:50] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:48:51] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:48:53] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:48:57] Sarah Jack: Join us each week.
[00:48:59] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get podcasts.
[00:49:03] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:49:06] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[00:49:09] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:49:14] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

November 2, 2023

Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials 101 Part 1: 1648-1656

Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
Witch-Hunting in Seventeenth Century New England
The Devil in the Shape of a Woman
Entertaining Satan: Witchcraft and the Culture of Early New England
End Witch Hunts

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Show Notes

In Part 1 of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast’s Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials 101 series, we start at the beginning of witch hunt history in Massachusetts Bay Colony, decades before the famous Salem Witch-Hunt. This episode focuses on the stories of those accused of witchcraft who faced trial in Boston, including Margaret Jones, Alice Lake, Elizabeth Kendall, Anne Hibbins, John Bradstreet, Jane Walford, and Eunice Cole.

The Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project is asking for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to proclaim the innocence of its witch trial victims. The convicted victims talked about in this episode have not been exonerated, and no Massachusetts witchcraft trial victim has received an official apology. Please visit our project website at massachusettswitchtrials.org for more, and please take a moment to sign and share the project petition at change.org/witchtrials

Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, the show that asks why we hunt witches and how we can stop hunting witches. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:20] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. This episode is the first part of a Massachusetts Witch Trial 101 series.
[00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: We're so glad to be able to give this part of history the detailed coverage it deserves.
[00:00:33] Sarah Jack: Massachusetts had more witch trials than just Salem.
[00:00:37] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. Before 1692, witchcraft trials were held in Boston.
[00:00:42] Sarah Jack: Let's dive into the details.
[00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: Though rumors of witchcraft arose soon after settlement of the Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies, and were certainly making rounds by 1638, when Governor John Winthrop wrote that Jane Hawkins "grew into suspicion to be a witch", it took many years of suspicions under normal circumstances to trigger formal witchcraft complaints.
[00:01:09] Sarah Jack: Between 1648 and 1693, two hundred and seventeen individuals were formally charged with witchcraft, and several others sued their accusers for slander. For a complete list of victims, visit massachusettswitchtrials.org
[00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: 156 people are verified to have been formally accused during the Salem Witch Hunt.
[00:01:35] Sarah Jack: And 61 were accused before Salem.
[00:01:38] Josh Hutchinson: A total of 38 were convicted, 30 in Salem and 8 in Boston.
[00:01:44] Sarah Jack: In all 24 were hanged and one was pressed to death in Massachusetts . These 24 hanged included my ancestor, Rebecca nurse,
[00:01:54] Josh Hutchinson: And our mutual ancestor, Mary Esty.
[00:01:58] Sarah Jack: You know the 19 hanged in Salem, and you know Giles Corey's story, but do you know the 5 victims who were hanged in Boston between 1648 and 1688?
[00:02:08] Josh Hutchinson: And over the years, at least six additional people died in jail while awaiting either trial or execution for witchcraft.
[00:02:18] Sarah Jack: In total, 118 people were indicted, including my ancestor, Mary Hale.
[00:02:24] Josh Hutchinson: And my ancestor, Mary Osgood, as well as several of my aunts, uncles, and cousins.
[00:02:30] Sarah Jack: Another 99 were complained of, arrested, jailed, and/or examined, but their cases did not go to trial.
[00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: In many of these cases, we simply do not have complete records to know the outcomes.
[00:02:46] Sarah Jack: Contrary to popular belief, confessing to witchcraft did not save your life. Before Salem, several confessors were put to death in both the Massachusetts and Connecticut Colonies.
[00:02:57] Josh Hutchinson: During Salem, several who had confessed to witchcraft were indeed condemned to die and death warrant was issued and a date set for execution. However, the governor stepped in and metaphorically called the warden at the last minute. Those who had been condemned were reprieved.
[00:03:21] Sarah Jack: I want to hear about the first woman formally charged with witchcraft.
[00:03:25] Josh Hutchinson: The first woman formally charged with witchcraft in Massachusetts was Margaret Jones, who was accused in 1648. We know about her case primarily through the journal of Governor John Winthrop and a book by minister John Hale, which was written a full 49 years after Margaret's trial.
According to John Hale's recollection, Margaret "was suspected partly because that after some angry words passing between her and her neighbors, some mischief befell such neighbors in their creatures or the like." These neighbors used counter magic to identify the witch who'd bewitched or charmed certain objects, which they burned. Margaret unfortunately came to the house where the objects were burning at the worst possible time and was assumed to be the witch.
According to Winthrop, Margaret was a healer, but one whose malignant touch could cause deafness, vomiting, and "other violent pains or sickness," and whose medicines also had unspecified "violent effects." But if someone didn't use her medicine, she told them they would never be well, and accordingly, they never got well. Margaret was also supposed to be able to foretell the future, and she knew things that she wasn't privy to from private conversations in private houses.
During the investigation, Margaret and her husband, Thomas, were both watched. Now watching was an English technique for detecting witches, which was popularized by the self-defined Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins, during his East Anglia witch hunt in the mid 1640s. Watching involved sitting a suspect in a room, keeping them awake hour after hour, and watching to see if an imp or familiar would come in to feed, because witches were said to feed their imps and familiars from teats, which were often hidden in their secret parts.
Men would take shifts watching, instructed to keep the victim awake no matter what and use any means necessary to wake them up if they did fall asleep, because also once the person was sleep deprived, they were more likely to confess.
[00:06:22] Sarah Jack: Couldn't the watcher become sleep deprived?
[00:06:25] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And in this case, while Margaret was being watched, one of the watchers saw a small child in her arms who ran away into another room and then vanished when the watcher followed. Perhaps the watcher himself was suffering sleep deprivation, as you said, Sarah. But others also claimed to see this apparent familiar in different locations associated with Margaret at other times.
In addition to being watched, Margaret was examined for witch's teets and was found to have one in her secret parts. They described it as being "as fresh as if it had been newly sucked, and after it had been scanned, upon a forced search, that was withered, and another began on the opposite side."
Alice Stratton attempted to defend Margaret by saying that the teats were just scars from a difficult childbirth, just as Rebecca Nurse argued in Salem 44 years later. Subsequently, Alice Stratton would find herself accused of witchcraft. Ultimately, Margaret was convicted, and she was condemned to die by hanging.
On the day she was to be executed, young John Hale and some neighbors went to the prison and exhorted her to confess and repent. They were not there to save her life. They were there to save her soul. However, she refused to belie herself and maintained her innocence up until her death later that day.
Now, according to John Winthrop, the same day and hour she was executed, there was a very great tempest at Connecticut, which blew down many trees. Then, following Margaret Jones's execution, her husband Thomas tried to board a ship to Barbados but was refused passage due to lack of payment. While anchored at Charlestown, before it could even get underway on the Charles River to Boston Harbor, this ship, carrying a load of 80 horses, began rocking side to side violently, though the weather was calm. And so this continued for 12 hours.
At some point while the ship was struggling, a witness ran to the county court, which was in session, and told the magistrates about the rocking and also told them about how Thomas Jones had been denied passage on that ship and hey, wasn't it weird that the husband of an executed witch would be refused passage and then the ship would have these troubles? The magistrates agreed with that logic. How could you not? So they send an officer over to arrest Thomas.
Now, according to the account of Winthrop, as the officer was crossing over on the ferry, someone said to him, "you can tame men sometimes, can't you tame this ship?" And the officer answered, "I have that here that it may be will tame her and make her be quiet." As the officer was showing his arrest warrant to this other person, the ship slowly began to stop swaying. The stoppage of the swaying was completed once Thomas was behind bars.
Unfortunately, we don't have good records to show us what became of Thomas after this incident. We don't know how he lived out the rest of his life.
[00:10:36] Sarah Jack: Do we know anything of their children? She had a birthing scar.
[00:10:40] Josh Hutchinson: We don't have anything about their children. We have very scant records of this couple. We basically know about them through the witch trials.
[00:10:51] Sarah Jack: We know that there were accused witches who didn't have a full house of children or they lost their pregnancies or infants.
[00:11:04] Josh Hutchinson: We will talk about that during this episode, because there is a recurring theme of childless women who were perceived by the others to have child envy and want a child for their own by any means necessary, including witchery.
[00:11:27] Sarah Jack: Let's talk about Alice Lake from Dorchester. She was a wife of Henry, a mother of four. We don't have a lot of information on Alice Lake, but what we know is sad. We know that later she confessed that she "played the harlot" when she was young and single. During that time, she became pregnant. In trying to hide her shame, she attempted to terminate that pregnancy but failed. Following this event, she considered herself to be a murderer, because she had made the attempt. As shown by the cases we've already covered and many still to come, infanticide and perceived sexual immorality are more reoccurring themes in witch trial accusations.
According to Nathaniel Mather, brother of Increase Mather, when another child died, Alice Lake was visited by the devil in the child's shape.
The exact timing of Alice's trial is unknown, but she is believed to have been executed in about 1650. As with Margaret Jones, Alice received visitors on the day of her execution, who likewise pleaded with her to confess and repent. They were trying to save her soul. Following her execution, Henry moved to Portsmouth, Rhode Island. Four children remained in Dorchester, where one died. The other three later moved to Rhode Island and then uprooted to Plymouth Colony with their father.
We have heard from Alice Lake descendants.
[00:13:00] Josh Hutchinson: We have, and we want to hear from more descendants. If you're out there listening to us, please get in touch. The contact information is in the show description.
Another person accused of witchcraft around this same time was Elizabeth Kendall of Cambridge. Again, like Alice Lake, the date of Elizabeth's trial cannot be pinned down but is believed to have been somewhere between 1647 and 1651. The one and only source that we have for her case is John Hale's book, A Modest Enquiry into the Nature of Witchcraft, which wasn't published until 1702, so only very limited information is available about Elizabeth.
What we know from Hale is that she was accused by a nurse from Watertown, who claimed that Elizabeth had bewitched a child to death. This nurse stated that Elizabeth made much of the child and it was well, but then it changed color and it died a few hours later. On the basis of this witness testimony and other, unspecified evidence, Elizabeth was hanged, despite her own protest of innocence.
After the hanging, Watertown's deputy to the General Court, Mr. Richard Brown, questioned the parents of the child, the Jenningses. This couple told him they hadn't suspected Elizabeth at all. They'd actually believed the nurse was to blame for the child's death, because she had kept them out in the cold. Later, the nurse was jailed for alleged adultery. While there in the jail, she gave birth to a child born out of wedlock. For this, Mr. Brown visited her and told her off, saying, "it was just with God to leave her to this wickedness, as a punishment for her murdering Goody Kendall by her false witness bearing. The unnamed nurse died in prison, and her false allegation was never investigated any further, and Hale did not note what happened to the child that was born in prison.
[00:15:26] Sarah Jack: Here's a couple that should be familiar to you if you've been reading an important history book this past year. Mary Lewis Parsons and her husband, Hugh, were formally charged with witchcraft in Massachusetts. They were featured in our fifth episode with Malcolm Gaskill on his book, The Ruin of All Witches, and will be featured again in our next Massachusetts 101 episode, along with fellow Springfield residents, the widow Mercy Marshfield, another Mary Parsons, and Alice Young Beamon, daughter of Alice Young of Windsor, as well as a few familiar faces from down the Connecticut River.
[00:16:07] Josh Hutchinson: In 1652, John Bradstreet of Rowley was charged with witchcraft and presented to the Essex County Quarter Court. Allegedly, John had been claiming to perform magic and saying he was hearing mysterious voices. These things led to suspicion that he had familiarity with the devil. According to the complaint against him, he said he read in a book of magic and that he heard a voice asking him what work he had for him. He answered, "go make a bridge of sand over the sea. Go make a ladder of sand up to heaven. And go to God and come down no more." The court, reviewing this evidence, ruled that John had not actually committed witchcraft but had simply lied about it, a decision that they would make in certain cases for a handful of men.
[00:17:06] Sarah Jack: I was just gonna say, "wait a minute."
[00:17:09] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, they never did this for women, but men, they would say, "oh, you can't be a witch, you're just lying about it. So you're on a first name basis with the devil, but you lied about that." Whereas women, they just say, "take a hike."
So the court ruled that he just lied about it, and he had also been convicted of lying previously in 1650, so this was considered a repeat offense, and so they ordered him to either pay a fine of 20 shillings or submit to a whipping if he couldn't pay.
[00:17:49] Sarah Jack: A ladder of sand, that's interesting.
[00:17:54] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. This guy was like, "you build me something impossible," and are basically just telling the devil to get lost. And even though he told the devil basically to leave, or whoever the voice was that he was hearing, he told them to leave, but he still got in trouble for talking to them.
[00:18:18] Sarah Jack: Jane Walford of Portsmouth was accused of witchcraft in 1648 and won a defamation suit against her accuser, Elizabeth Rowe, who was ordered to apologize and pay two pounds plus court costs. Eight years later in 1656, Elizabeth Rowe's husband, Nicholas Rowe, and six others brought witchcraft accusations against Jane Walford to the court. This time, magistrates bound her over for 20 pounds as assurance she would attend the next court session.
Nicholas Rowe claimed in court that Jane Walford came to him in bed in the evening and put her hand on his breast so that he could not speak, and he was in great pain till the next day. Witness Susannah Trimmings said that on the evening of March 30th, 1656, on her way home, "she heard a rustling in the woods, and presently after, there did appear to her a woman whom she apprehended to be Old Goodwife Walford. She asked me where my consort was. I answered I had none. She said, ' thy consort is at home by this time. Lend me a pound of cotton.' I told her I had but two pounds in the house, and I would not spare any to my mother. She said I had better have done it, that my sorrow was great already, and it should be greater for I was going a great journey, but should never come there. She then left me, and I was struck as with a clap of fire on the back, and she vanished towards the water side, in my apprehension in the shape of a cat."
That night, according to Goodman Trimmings, Susannah was ill, a condition which persisted at least until April 18th, when the Trimmings gave in their testimony. Elisa Barton said she was there while Susannah was sick, and her face was colored and spotted with several colors. Her eyes looked as if they'd been scalded.
An unidentified witness testified in June that he was actually with the Walfords on March 30th, and Jane was at home at least until it was very dark out.
[00:20:25] Josh Hutchinson: He's her alibi.
[00:20:27] Sarah Jack: John Puddington claimed that three years ago, Jane Walford said that her own husband called her an old witch. Agnes Puddington claimed that on April 11th, 1656, Mrs. Evans came over and lay at her house all night. Around sunset, Agnes saw a yellowish cat, and Mrs. Evans was like, "a cat has been following me all around, everywhere I go." John Puddington then tried to shoot a cat in the garden, but it got up on a tree, and the gun wouldn't fire. Following that, Agnes saw three cats but could not tell which way they went as they exited the area.
Three unnamed witnesses claimed that Elizabeth Rowe said Strawberry Bank had three male witches. They were Thomas Turpin, who had drowned, a second man called Old Ham, and the third was "nameless because he should be blameless."
[00:21:18] Josh Hutchinson: Nameless because he should be blameless. That totally sounds like a Johnny Cochrane court statement. OJ Simpson should be nameless because he should be blameless.
[00:21:33] Sarah Jack: This testimony against Jane Walford did not sway the court. Upon a magisterial review of the evidence, Jane was cleared by proclamation, so her witness was key.
[00:21:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, her alibi held up. Susanna Trimmings' statement did not fit, so they did acquit.
[00:21:52] Sarah Jack: In 1659, Jane won a slander case against Robert Couch, a physician who claimed he could prove she was a witch. How was he proving it? This time, she was awarded six pounds.
[00:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: I bet he was going to look at her secret parts.
[00:22:09] Sarah Jack: It's very likely.
The stigma of witchcraft remained with Jane even beyond her death and passed down to her five daughters.
[00:22:18] Josh Hutchinson: Now we're turning our attention to Mrs. Anne Hibbins, who was accused of witchcraft in 1655. Now, Anne had immigrated to Boston with her second husband, William, back in the 1630s, leaving three sons behind in England. After arriving in Massachusetts, William set up a shop as a merchant and also got into politics.
Things were going well for the couple, when a dramatic business error cost William 500 pounds, which was a huge sum of money that people would literally probably have killed for back in that day, because the average person had an estate, probably more in the 100 to 200 pound range. So this is way more than what other people have total.
[00:23:13] Sarah Jack: Unexpected financial devastation.
[00:23:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And what brings tension into a marriage more than an unexpected financial burden? And so this is often cited as occasioning a major personality change in Anne. Thomas Hutchinson later wrote that "losses in the latter part of [William's] life had reduced his estate," and this is Thomas Hutchinson saying this, not Josh Hutchinson, "increased the natural crabbedness of his wife's temper, which made her turbulent and quarrelsome." And there's that word again. We've got another quarrelsome dame, yet another one of those themes that pops up. A woman speaks her mind, so she becomes quarrelsome and therefore suspect, because who but the devil's handmaiden would be so damned quarrelsome.
[00:24:24] Sarah Jack: Exactly.
[00:24:26] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So despite the financial setbacks, William continued to be elected to public office.
They had this financial setback, and then in 1640, the family suffered a different kind of setback. This began as a dispute between Anne and some joiners, who were a type of carpenter, that had done some work on the Hibbins house, and this dispute escalated big time owing probably to Anne's assertive, or quarrelsome, nature, depending who you talk to. Anne didn't like the quality of the work. She didn't like the price that she was charged in the end. So she was very agitated, and once she got going on this, she wouldn't let it go.
The church steps in and tries to mediate, because the joiner that she's arguing with is also a member of the church that she's a member of, which is at the time in 1640, the one, just called the Boston Church. So the church elders, the minister, people are getting involved in this, and ultimately decide that Anne is raising a fuss about nothing, and the men are right, and she should mind her place in society, and shut her mouth. And so they tried to make peace, but she wouldn't accept it. And because she wouldn't accept what the church had offered to mediate, and because she was usurping her husband's authority as the head of the household, she was excommunicated in 1641, even though her husband was this prominent figure being elected to offices. They still kicked her out, said, "you're not welcome in church anymore," and they literally told her, "you can go to hell now." But whatever ill will Bostonians harbored toward Anne, they didn't seem to hold it against William, who was elected an Assistant. This is the upper house of the Massachusetts legislature at the time, the General Court, the House of Assistants, and he's elected to that in 1643 and reelected every year until his death in 1654.
But once William was out of the picture, it didn't take long for the neighbors to come for Anne. The year after he passed, Anne was tried for witchcraft by the Court of Assistants, the very institution to which her husband had belonged for nearly a dozen years.
And here's another theme that we see recurring, widows with money appear to have been more vulnerable to witchcraft prosecution. We see the same thing happen in Connecticut with Katherine Harrison. When John Harrison dies, the neighbors really turn on Katherine, and she ends up being charged with witchcraft, just like Anne here.
She's vulnerable. There's no husband. She doesn't have any male relatives in the colony. Her sons are back in England, remember? So they're not going to be any help. And basically there's no men around who the other men would actually listen to. So the men are just saying, "oh, that, that woman over there, she's been in trouble for years and years. She must be a witch."
And Anne was convicted by the jury. The magistrates actually refused to accept the verdict and instead referred the case to the full General Court, which would include Assistants and the Deputies, and they held a retrial on May 14th, 1656. So this is about a year after her arrest, and she's convicted again. So this time, everybody just consents to the decision of the General Court, and she's hanged June 19th, 1656.
So the decision to hang Mrs. Anne Hibbins was not popular with everybody. There was an element out there talking against this. Bravely, minister John Horton is said to have said, "Mistress Hibbins was hanged for a witch only for having more wit than her neighbors."
[00:29:40] Sarah Jack: You think about these women who were retried. It could have gone either way.
[00:29:47] Josh Hutchinson: The story of Eunice Cole begins in England and ends in New Hampshire, but is mainly a Massachusetts tale.
Okay, so here we've got a prototypical witch. This is your ordinary suspect kind of figure. Eunice Cole has a reputation also for being a quarrelsome dame, she has a checkered past with several arrests for different things, she's older, by the standards of the day, and impoverished. So here's basically this old, grumpy lady, but basically she's past her childbearing years, and she's got no money. She's very vulnerable, a person on the fringe of society.
Rewinding back a while, it's 1637, and William Cole is in the employ of a merchant in London, England. But William, he longs to go to New England, so he makes a deal with his boss, and his boss says, "okay, I'll let you off the hook for future service, and I'll pay for your passage across the Atlantic and your wife's passage, if you agree to send me 10 pounds once you get over there." So they make this deal, they travel over.
In November, 1637, a bill is sent to them, and this still exists today, somehow, remarkably, and states the nature of this agreement. So that's how we have all this information. Another bill, actually a claim filed in court against William Cole 20 years later for the same debt, also exists. William couldn't come up with 10 pounds in 20 years. He couldn't save half a pound a year. That's just either shows you their financial situation, the dire straits that they're in most of that time, or maybe he just wasn't very happy with his old employer, and he didn't want to send him the money. He was like, "hey, I could use this 10 pounds. I got stuff to do."
[00:32:34] Sarah Jack: He probably thought it was going to fall off the credit report after seven years.
[00:32:38] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, exactly. But they're still after him after 20 years, they hire an agent in Massachusetts to pursue this for them. So they're really determined to get their 10 pounds.
Now once they were in New England, the Coles first settled south of Boston in a settlement called Mount Wollaston, which is now Braintree. In Mount Wollaston, William received what historian John Demos describes as a small land grant. Now this town was also the starting point in Massachusetts for the unorthodox minister John Wheelwright, who the Puritans deemed to be an antinomian. Wheelwright uprooted and, along with a lot of his flock, moved to Exeter, in what is today New Hampshire, at the time of the move, was outside of Massachusetts control.
Now the joke's on them, because they get up there, and in 1643, Massachusetts says, "hey, we're making another county," the original Norfolk County. And this consists of basically anything between the Merrimack and Piscataqua and about a dozen miles inland from the ocean. So you've got the towns of Exeter, Hampton, Portsmouth, they're part of this new county along with Salisbury and Haverhill in what is still today Massachusetts.
So William Cole goes up along with Wheelwright and becomes a founding member of this town. They signed a covenant agreeing to abide by godly laws that would be enacted by the town of Exeter, and William signed with his mark. The Coles lived in Exeter for five years, and in 1643, William was elected to serve the community as fenceviewer, which was actually an important job. It sounds odd today to say, "oh, we're hiring you to go around viewing fences." But at the time it was critical in keeping harmony between neighbors to make sure there weren't gaps in fences or loose parts that animals could get through and ravage a neighbor's yard, which going back again to Sarah's grandmother, Rebecca Nurse, pigs got into her garden and she got angry about that, and it's like the one recorded instance out of all the testimony against her where she showed anger, because pigs were eating her garden, and that's her vegetables and herbs and everything that she needs for cooking. Fence viewing was serious business.
For unknown reasons, in 1644, the Coles uprooted once again and moved over to the coast to Hampton.
[00:36:06] Sarah Jack: I really wish I knew why, because this is where things start to get really juicy.
[00:36:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, once they get to Hampton, it gets real. Eunice starts getting arrested left and right. Their financial situation really just nosedives. It wasn't very good where they were, but it just bottoms out in Hampton. So in 1645, Eunice was charged with making "slanderous speeches" against some women.
And in 1647, Eunice and William were charged for withholding pigs that were owed to the plaintiff in this case. Apparently they had made some arrangement where they were going to sell or give to this person pigs and they really, this person really wanted their pigs. So the court did rule in favor of the plaintiff and said, "Coles, you've got to hand over these swine."
But the Coles, they decided to fight back and literally. The constable comes over to take the animals. The Coles start screaming their heads off. Eunice is reported to literally just be shouting, "murder, murder," and William is going, "there's thieves in this town. All these thieves in this town." And they're just shouting this. The constable grabs a pig or two, so the Coles, what do they do? They bite his hands. What else would you do? He takes your pigs, you bite his hands. He didn't drop the pigs, so they pushed him to the ground, and then they pulled the pigs from his arms. And after this, they faced more charges, but unfortunately, no record exists today of the outcome of these added charges.
That same year, William is rated on the Hampton tax list, he's in 51st place, income-wise, out of 60 people. By 1653, he is 72nd of 72, dead last in the financial hierarchy of Hampton. He is literally the poorest man in town.
Eunice, again, she went to court in 1651 and 1654 for similar things about mouthing off. And historian John Demos in his work, Entertaining Satan, Demos states that Eunice was involved in even more trials. We don't have records of those to know what they were all about.
So now we get to the year 1656. Hampton has about 350 people. More than three out of five residents are under the age of 20. So they're all kids and teenagers, 62 percent of the population is under 20. So that leaves around 130 adults that are 20 or older. And among these adults and possibly even among the younger people,
[00:39:48] Sarah Jack: Yeah, that just made me think about the influence of children on these witch trials sometimes.
[00:39:52] Josh Hutchinson: We get to some good ones coming up.
So suspicion is building about Eunice, the words getting around, the children have probably heard the gossip, maybe their parents have even told them some things about it, or they've asked, because you hear that Goody So-and-so's a witch, you go running to your parents like, "is she really a witch? Do I have to be afraid of her?" I would have so many questions and concerns as a child.
So this gossip is spreading. For one thing, it's because Eunice is an outspoken woman. Another count against her, she's got no children, so she's the antithesis of the godly housewife and mother that the Puritans expect women to be, and she would have felt that pressure. Even today, women report feeling intense pressure to get married, to have children, to be mothers. But back then, imagine just how intense that pressure would be on her. Everybody would be saying, "Eunice, you gotta have kids. You gotta have kids." And then by 1656, she's too old to have kids. So what does she do? According to neighbors, she was very interested in their children. And we'll talk about that in just a moment.
Eunice often made snappy remarks when confronted, and one time she was bold enough to just barge into a meeting of the Hampton selectmen and demand that they give her aid, because they were giving aid to another couple that was somewhat better off, and yet the town's trying to say, "you've got resources, you have an estate, use that to pay your bills," and she just wasn't having it. So she just went in and told them what the deal was.
Now, a few days later, the man who was receiving the aid lost some livestock. So this follows the same worn, old pattern we see again and again. There's a difference of opinion, an exchange of words, and soon there's an injury or damage to something or someone valued by the person who's the target of the witch's malice.
Now, as a child-free woman, as we've said, Eunice was immediately sus. But when she hung out at the bed of a neighbor's child who later died, many were convinced she had killed the child out of envy. And this child envy theme would feature heavily in her multiple arrests for witchcraft.
But it wasn't only children that Eunice envied. Apparently livestock were also vulnerable to her jealous gaze. A witness testified that they had caught her eyeing their sheep and asked, "what on Earth are you staring at?" And Eunice supposedly said, "what is it to you, sawsbox?"
Another person who testified, Thomas Philbrick said he lost two calves and reported that cole had told him that if his calves "ate any of her grass, she wished it might poison them or choke them," and then they died. So of course it's gotta be her. It can't be a coincidence.
[00:43:32] Sarah Jack: Didn't in America Bewitched, doesn't Owen Davies talk about the cattle getting ill? In the fur balls inside from the grass.
[00:43:44] Josh Hutchinson: oh yeah. Yeah. The hairballs.
So in 1656, Eunice was tried in Boston for witchcraft. A number of witnesses came out against her, representing the full spectrum of the income ranks of Hampton. There were upper class, middle class, lower class people engaged in testifying against Eunice. So in a lot of cases, it's middle class against middle class or maybe lower class against lower class, because it's generally who you're associated with most closely are the people that are actually going to accuse you. Who are you interacting with every day? And generally you don't see someone like a Eunice Cole interacting with the upper crust, and yet upper class residents are coming out to say that she has harmed them with her witchcraft.
[00:44:52] Sarah Jack: It's a really good point.
[00:44:54] Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, half of the depositions against her have been lost over the 300 some years since the trial.
Now, Eunice, another thing that she's associated with is animal familiars. We talked about the watching and how they, the animals, imps or familiars would suckle on a witch's teat to get their nourishment. This is just watching her during Sunday meeting. Apparently minister's up there giving the sermon, and a woman named Mary Perkins sees a mouse just pop out of Eunice's cleavage and scurry away. At another service, a witness heard a sound like the whine of hungry puppies coming from under Eunice, very suspicious, of course.
Another charge leveled at this time was that Eunice bewitched the oven of the constable who brought her aid when aid was rendered to the Coles. This person who brought her the food and fuel, apparently he had more bread at home than he was bringing to her, so that's unfair. And apparently she was vindictive because he had more than she had, and she cursed the stove so that the owners couldn't make their own bread at home.
In a loss that has frustrated historians to no end, there's no record of the verdict in Eunice's 1656 trial. So historians debate whether she was convicted or not. Now, she wasn't executed, so John Demos contends that she was likely not convicted, because witchcraft's a capital crime, and you're basically automatically executed if you're convicted. But there's a record that Eunice was whipped and that she was imprisoned indefinitely, so historians, including Carol F. Karlsen, argue that Eunice was most likely convicted but spared death for unknown reasons, because if she wasn't convicted, why was she whipped and committed to jail for life or the pleasure of the court?
[00:47:38] Sarah Jack: But there are no other known accused witches from the mid 1650s that were convicted and jailed.
[00:47:47] Josh Hutchinson: Right. The others all leading up to this that were convicted, we've covered Margaret Jones, Alice Lake, Elizabeth Kendall, Ann Hibbins. They're all executed after convicted. One we'll cover in the next episode, Hugh Parsons, gets convicted, but then he gets acquitted in a new trial, and then he has to leave for Rhode Island.
Whatever the case with Eunice, the 1656 trial was far from the last time that she was persecuted as a witch. Indeed, she would reside in the Boston jail off and on for the next dozen years and would face more courts on witchcraft charges over a span of about 25 years. Now, the man who whipped her was Salisbury Constable Richard Ormsby, and he claimed that when he stripped her shirt off to whip her, he saw under one of her breasts "a blue thing like unto a teat hanging downward about three quarters of an inch long, some blood with other moistness." So here's another document stating that she was whipped, she had been charged with witchcraft, and then she was whipped.
So while she's in jail, maybe in the first year that she's in there, she petitioned for early release on the basis of her age, and especially the age of her husband, William, who was about 88 years old and needed her help. She also bemoaned the plight of her estate, and she promised good behavior if released, but the court's response has not survived, and she apparently remained in jail for a little while, but Eunice may have been back in Hampton in 1658. John Demos points out a 1659 town record that includes a notation of a payment of five shillings to constable Richard Ormsby for expense about G. Cole, presumably Goodwife Eunice Cole. And this entry's marked 58, so presumably it's about 1658.
So now in 1659, the even more aged William Cole petitioned for relief. He couldn't farm anymore, had no children, and he couldn't afford to hire a farm worker. He had received some aid previously from the town in 1658, but one of the problems that he had was that he'd signed over the property to his wife in 1656, and she keeps being in and outta jail, so it's hard to manage her property. She's not there. He's considerably aged and can't really take care of himself the way that he used to. So the general court gets this and they invalidate the transfer of the deed to Eunice Cole. And then they ordered the town of Hampton to take possession of the estate and use the proceeds from it to support the Coles.
Within a year of the 1659 petition, Eunice was back in Hampton, again getting in trouble for unseemly speeches. In 1660, she's charged for this, because she allegedly asked a girl named Huldah Hussey, "where's your mother, Mingay, that whore? She's abed with your father, that whoremaster." And this gets her in big trouble. This is something you don't just go and say to a girl back then.
By 1662, Eunice was back in the Boston prison, and she again petitioned for her release. That same year, William Cole died, May 26th, 1662. And after his death, Eunice was totally destitute. He was already the poorest man in town, and his income gets taken away. Now there's a complicated situation with his will. He, for some reason, maybe because Eunice was in jail, I don't know, he decides that he's going to bequeath his property to another man and so the town of Hampton, which is supposed to control the Coles' property, doesn't like this, so Hampton petitioned the General Court regarding William's will and also the possible return of Eunice Cole that they were worried about that year.
On October 8th, 1662, the General Court met and declared, "that the said Eunice Cole pay what is due on arrears to the keeper and be released the prison on condition that she depart within one month after her release out of this jurisdiction and not to return again on penalty of her former sentence being executed against her." So she's more or less released on parole, and she doesn't stay out of jail very long before she's back in trouble.
By October 1663, the county court had split William Cole's estate between Thomas Webster and Eunice Cole, who received a grand total of eight pounds to take care of her for the rest of her life. And this eight pounds doesn't even go to her, because it's ordered to go straight to the Hampton selectmen so they can provide for her upkeep.
And then, once more, in 1665, Eunice submitted a petition to the general court to be released from imprisonment. So at some point she was put back in the jail. The court this time agrees to release her only if she gave security and left the colony forever. She couldn't pay. She had to remain in jail.
But sometime between 1668 and 1671, Eunice was released, because by 1671, she was back in Hampton, totally broke. Now the town built a home for her. By tradition, it's a small hut. Anyways, they give her the shelter, and they ordered that each family in town would take turns providing food and fuel a week at a time.
In 1673, she was charged again with witchcraft and in court in Boston. This time she's accused of shape-shifting into human and animal forms to convince a girl, Ann Smith, to live with her. Again, this is the child envy thing coming up. She's supposed to be basically a child snatcher. And she desperately wants one of her own and will use her witchcraft to attain what she desires, according to the townsfolk.
She's accused of many other things, acquitted on all charges. However, the court specified that though she was not legally guilty of witchcraft, the court vehemently suspected she had familiarity with the devil.
In 1680, New Hampshire was granted its own status, independent of Massachusetts. That very year, once New Hampshire becomes its own thing, Hampton residents take Eunice back to court, complaining against her once more for witchcraft. And we'll have even more on this 1680 episode, because more people were involved in this than just Eunice. This was a miniature witch panic.
In 1680, the court didn't find enough evidence to bring her to trial. The Hampton Court, like the Massachusetts General Court before it, "vehemently suspects her so to be a witch."
Now, fast forward to 1938. Hampton celebrated its 300th birthday, and one of the things that they did was actually recognize Eunice Cole. At a town meeting, the citizens of Hampton unanimously passed a resolution to clear her name. The resolution stated, "we believe that Eunice (Goody) Cole was unjustly accused of witchcraft and familiarity with the devil in the 17th century, and we do hereby restore to the said Eunice (Goody) Cole a rightful place as a citizen of the town of Hampton." and today, a stone memorial to Eunice stands on the town green, and the town hall houses an urn which is said to contain Eunice's remains.
Earlier this year, a bill to exonerate Eunice at a state level was voted down by the New Hampshire Senate after having passed the House. So now the Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project seeks to have her good name restored by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Eunice Cole deserves to be exonerated and to receive an apology.
[00:58:05] Sarah Jack: The witch hunt victims we have discussed today need your voice. The four innocent people we covered who were convicted and executed in Boston have not been exonerated, and they are not alone. Others were convicted in Boston in the years before the Salem Witch Hunt. In addition, none of the alleged witches of Massachusetts have ever received an apology. Thou Shalt Not Suffer would like to see exoneration for those convicted and an apology for all accused, whether the case was handled out of Boston, Salem, or anywhere else in Massachusetts. Our petition is available at change.org/witchtrials. Sign and share today.
[00:58:49] Josh Hutchinson: We hope you've enjoyed this first episode of our Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 series. And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:59:01] Sarah Jack: Join us again next week and stay tuned for another Massachusetts 101 next month.
[00:59:06] Josh Hutchinson: Please rate and review the show wherever you're listening.
[00:59:10] Sarah Jack: And don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
[00:59:12] Josh Hutchinson: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:59:16] Sarah Jack: And check out endwitchhunts.org. Goodbye.
[00:59:21] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

October 19, 2023

Halloween History and Traditions with Scott Culpepper

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Show Notes

An engaging conversation on Halloween history and traditions, witchcraft, horror films, jack-o-lanterns, ghosts, zombies, the Satanic Panic, and more. We welcome back the podcast’s inaugural historian guest, Dr. Scott Culpepper, a historian, storyteller, author and Professor of History at Dordt University in Sioux Center, IA. After listening to this episode, be sure to return to episode 3 where he kicked off our historian episodes last year discussing the Connecticut Witch Trials in depth.

Transcript

[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to a haunted episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:18] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack-o'-lantern.
[00:00:22] Josh Hutchinson: We're talking about the history of Halloween with Dr. Scott Culpepper.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: Lore and the history.
[00:00:30] Josh Hutchinson: Find out why we do certain things that we do every year at Halloween time and find out where the holiday came from.
[00:00:39] Sarah Jack: What might have they been up to centuries before?
[00:00:45] Josh Hutchinson: What is Samhain? What did they do at Samhain? Did they do human sacrifices?
[00:00:51] Sarah Jack: If this episode was a neighborhood for trick or treating, we hit every house.
[00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: Full size candy bars for everyone.
[00:01:00] Sarah Jack: All Souls Day, All Saints Day, Hallowtide, Day of the Dead. You'll hear a little bit about everything.
[00:01:09] Josh Hutchinson: Yes! Where do all these different Halloween things come from? Where did we get jack-o'-lanterns from? Who is this Great Pumpkin I've been hearing so much about?
[00:01:21] Sarah Jack: What kind of things do people get up to? Why is Halloween rebellious?
[00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Why is Halloween a night you get to act out? We'll talk about the origins of the word Halloween itself. Where did that even come from? We'll learn how Halloween became an American thing.
[00:01:43] Sarah Jack: Even though we're excited about Halloween and exploring its history, you can't talk about much of it without witches.
[00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we do talk witches a lot in this episode, and Scott gives some great information on the connections between witchcraft and Halloween, and we talk about the Satanic Panic at the disco.
[00:02:16] Sarah Jack: Did you say at the disco?
[00:02:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. We talked about the colors, the candy, the costumes.
[00:02:24] Sarah Jack: Hollywood and movies.
[00:02:26] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, there was some discussion of Halloween favorites. Be thinking about yours when you hear our questions.
[00:02:36] Sarah Jack: It was so great to have Dr. Culpepper back. When Dr. Culpepper talks history, you can picture it.
[00:02:44] Josh Hutchinson: I know you're going to have as much fun with this episode as we did.
[00:02:48] Sarah Jack: We did have a lot of fun in this episode.
[00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: So grab that bag of candy that you were thinking you were going to give to the trick or treaters and pop some kettle corn, drink some apple cider, and settle right in.
[00:03:06] Sarah Jack: Welcome back, Dr. Scott Culpepper, Professor of History at Dordt University, who holds a PhD in religion with an emphasis in historical and church state studies from Baylor University. He specializes in Europe and the Atlantic world with a particular emphasis on the intersections of politics, religions, and popular cultures. You will enjoy what he has to share.
[00:03:28] Josh Hutchinson: What is your favorite Halloween tradition?
[00:03:32] Scott Culpepper: Ah, I think the whole haunted house thing. I just like to go in as an adult. I like to go into the haunted houses and be scared a little bit, but then I also like trick or treating. It's hard to put that second, but that's up there as well. Two of my favorite traditions.
[00:03:49] Sarah Jack: Awesome. And what is your favorite Halloween candy?
[00:03:53] Scott Culpepper: Ah, Nestle Crunch, which is my favorite candy overall.
[00:03:57] Josh Hutchinson: Okay. So when you're trick or treating, you'd look forward to getting that in your basket.
[00:04:04] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. Yeah, it was always fun as a kid, and then as a dad, to get to go along, do the ride along, and my kids like Nestle Crunch okay but it's not their favorite, so I was able to assist and then get rewarded with Nestle Crunch. It was always great.
[00:04:19] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, that's perfect. That would be dangerous for me to be assisting anybody with trick or treating these days. We always have enough candy just at the house to give out to the trick or treaters.
[00:04:32] Scott Culpepper: I don't think we ever ate all of ours. We had so much. Not that we didn't eat more than we should, but I can remember it being around in the house for months after.
[00:04:42] Josh Hutchinson: What is your favorite Halloween movie?
[00:04:45] Scott Culpepper: Oh, that's a good question. I think just because it's a classic of classics, Halloween, the original Halloween, and I like it just because of the atmosphere. It is very evocative of Halloween in middle America. And it's funny because, of course, it was filmed in California. We actually went to visit my daughter and we were in Los Angeles, and we went and saw the house, Michael Myers' house that was in the film, and we saw the yard next door, which was supposed to be Laurie Strode's house, the realty house. And it's crazy. It's just like in downtown Pasadena. You go around the corner and you've got California, palm trees all around, but you've got this one little street where they create the illusion of middle America.
[00:05:29] Josh Hutchinson: It's funny how they're able to do that with a place like Pasadena. I know that's used in Back to the Future, Dr. Brown's house was in Pasadena.
[00:05:39] Scott Culpepper: Yes.
[00:05:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So I've been by that one.
[00:05:43] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, it's been so impressive on our trips out there to go to the studios and all that and just see the magic of movie making. You've always known about it, but to actually see how they transform these spaces and just bring you into a very different reality from the place that you're actually in, it's just incredible.
[00:06:00] Sarah Jack: That's awesome. And do you have a favorite Halloween topic?
[00:06:06] Scott Culpepper: That's a good question. Witches, obviously, which is the topic that kind of draws all of us, the associations of Halloween festivals and ritual and lore with people's assumptions about witches and witchcraft and all of that. I like ghost stories, and so that's one of my favorite things, as well. And of course, being somebody who studies the Reformation and the fallout from both the Protestant and Catholic Reform movements, it's fascinating to me how there are very powerful influences, which we'll probably talk about later, stemming from that period into at least the precursors of what we now call Halloween.
[00:06:45] Josh Hutchinson: We are excited to announce the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, which seeks recognition of all of Massachusetts' witch trial victims.
[00:06:56] Sarah Jack: According to the available research, the colonies of Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth took action against at least 211 different individuals.
[00:07:06] Josh Hutchinson: Past legislation has focused on the 30 convicted during the Salem Witch Hunt, plus Giles Corey, who was pressed to death with stones. Legislation to date has not included 180 other individuals prosecuted by Massachusetts.
[00:07:26] Sarah Jack: The Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project proposes that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts restore to good standing those convicted of witchcraft and issue an apology to all who were accused and suffered the consequences of accusation.
[00:07:41] Josh Hutchinson: This effort follows on the heels of the exoneration of Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. by Massachusetts in 2022 and the exoneration of 34 individuals by Connecticut in May, 2023.
[00:07:53] Sarah Jack: We welcome individuals, schools, and organizations to be a part of making this project a success. Please visit massachusettswitchtrials.org to find out how you can volunteer.
[00:08:05] Josh Hutchinson: Lend your voice and effort to speak for people like Tituba and little Dorothy Good, both jailed during the Salem Witch Hunt, all but forgotten to history.
[00:08:14] Sarah Jack: These memorable victims, and many more, deserve to be formally recognized by name as innocent victims of Massachusetts witch trial history.
[00:08:24] Josh Hutchinson: Sign the petition today. The link is in the show description. Thank you.

[00:08:29] Josh Hutchinson: There doesn't seem to be a lot of knowledge generally about the origins of Halloween. Has the fear of Halloween hidden the knowledge, or is that from some other? Why do you think it's obscure?
[00:08:46] Scott Culpepper: I think so. And not even so much that it's obscure as we have legendary ideas about where Halloween comes from. Probably most people have heard the term Samhain, the ancient Celtic festival, which supposedly is one of the precursors of Halloween. And a lot of people are aware of that, but they have a lot of folkloric sort of concepts of what that is, and rightfully so, because we really don't know much about what that festival was. Yeah, I think that is definitely one barrier to people learning more about the past of Halloween, and the legend that it's primarily a pagan holiday has really obscured the fact that it's got those very strong Christian roots and origins. Especially fundamentalist Christians, they'll go off on the pagan rites, and maybe even Greek and Roman rites if they're a little bit better read, that may have been precursors to Halloween, but they don't acknowledge the very deep roots of the observance in the history of the church and the church's attempt to convert pagan peoples in the early medieval period. So definitely, yeah, I think fear, suspicion, and then just the willingness to accept legends that may not actually have had very little to do with the development of the holiday really obscures people's knowledge of the true origins.
[00:10:07] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think the legend aspect of things is so interesting. That makes me think about, specifically, Goody Bassett. She's such a legend to her community, and they really love the legend, and they are starting to embrace her as a person, too. But I think that also, Halloween of course is such a massive thing, but the legends are such a cherished piece and some people that, it doesn't matter to them necessarily. It's not important to them to enjoy it, what's historic and what's legend. And I was chatting with my sister briefly about Halloween questions, and one of the things she said was, "what's myth and what's the history?"
[00:10:48] Scott Culpepper: Yeah. And that is such a good question, because so much of what we think we know about the world is entangled with mythologies, and we all have our personal mythologies that we embrace. So it really is, it's a tricky thing. And sometimes the myth is enriching, the myth is empowering, the myth serves a good purpose.
It's always important to try to, as accurately as possible, I think, get to the historical roots, but the mythology has its own impact that's worth appreciating, as well. It's interesting in the history of modern paganism and modern Wicca, modern forms of witchcraft. That's, of course, very different from the accusations that were made during the early modern period. But early on in the early 20th century, you had scholars of folklore, like Margaret Murray, who were talking about legends of ancient rituals, and they constructed this whole framework of what people might've been practicing out in the groves and out in the forest and all that. And a lot of that inspired modern forms of Wicca and contemporary witchcraft.
The reality is probably none of that was actually going on, or at least very little of it. And the people who were accused of witchcraft, as you say often on the podcast, during the early modern period and later, these were people that had no thought of practicing real witchcraft. At the most, they may have been involved in some forms of folk magic or superstition.
So it's interesting in terms of the folklore, the mythology, looking at that duality as well, how you've got this contemporary movement that has really made the concept of witchcraft cool in our culture now, and its associations with Halloween today make the idea something that's more culturally acceptable, but they're grabbing onto, in some cases, the very folkloric stories that led to the accusation of these people that were so violently mistreated in the past.
[00:12:36] Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned Samhain. Can you explain what that is?
[00:12:41] Scott Culpepper: It is. It's an ancient Celtic festival that was practiced around the time of the end of October, about the time that we now celebrate Halloween, and it marked the transition from the days of light to the time of darkness. It seems like in a variety of different ancient religious systems there was an attachment of the religious system to the cycles of agriculture, as you would expect, because most people's lives depended very much on that cycle operating successfully and that ties you to the mystical forces that foster the earth, that whatever deities you believe in, they're expressed through those natural cycles and through natural phenomena.
And so the idea was you're getting to the end of the cycle of growth. You're entering the time of harvest when things need to be as perfect as possible for you to have a good crop to last through the winter. And you're entering the time of darkness. Days are going to get shorter. The nights are going to get longer until, of course, finally, you get to the winter solstice, when you have the very longest night of the year. And so it's seen as a time of death and a time of pending rebirth, so to speak, as you're entering into the winter months.
And so from what we know, Samhain is a celebration of that, an expectation of what's to come and an honoring of what happened in the past. It seems like they were probably ceremonial rituals with bonfires, maybe people bringing some of the produce that had been harvested in those fall months, and just crying out to the gods for a good winter and fruitful times to come in the future.
And so it's very much marking that point of transition. It's one of several observances throughout the year that marks the point of transition. Having said that, that's what we know, but there's so much we don't know about exactly what happened.
And one of our struggles to understand a lot of the ancient Celtic religions of the British Isles is the fact that most of the information we get about them is mediated through other people, particularly the Romans. And the Romans had all kinds of reasons to exaggerate and to misrepresent what was being practiced. People like Julius Caesar, Tacitus, many other Roman historians, they'll write about the people of the British Isles and they'll record the actions of the Druids, who were said to be the priestly class among the Celtic peoples of the British Isles, and they'll talk about human sacrifice. They'll talk about the resistance of Celtic peoples to the Romans. And so you get these very enticing images of Celtic peoples worshiping out in the groves with the sacred trees and all of that, a lot of which probably is based on accurate information to some degree, but then you get a lot of things about ritual sacrifice and all that as well that we're not nearly as sure about.
We do appear to have some archaeological evidence of people dying violently in some parts of the British Isles, and so the scholarly community is very divided about the degree to which there might have been human sacrifice, and if there was, in what way or what context it operated. Most scholars that I've seen would argue that where there were sacrifices or offerings, they typically were animals or they were the produce of the earth, the things that had been gathered during the harvest, more so than human sacrifice. But there is still an ongoing debate about there being pockets where human sacrifice was practiced.
Now, of course, for the Romans, this is the kind of thing that they certainly wanted to magnify and amplify. They're overcoming these, what they would view as twisted cultures, uncivilized cultures. And then with the transition of the Roman Empire to being a Christian empire, you get a lot of Christian leaders who are willing to sign on to those legends, as well, because again, they're Christianizing these people who are uncivilized, who are practicing violence against others. And so it's something that got a lot of legs.
We really don't know all of the specifics, but at least those are some of the things that we know about the traditions of Samhain.
[00:16:51] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. I'm learning a lot. I knew I was going to. I love it.
[00:16:57] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and you also mentioned that the holiday has Christian origins. Can you tell us about the origin of the word Halloween?
[00:17:06] Scott Culpepper: Yes. It's very interesting. You've got these different observances that mark not only the transition of the seasons, but also there arises this belief that that period is a very liminal time, because you've got that transition from greater light to greater darkness. And part of that liminality is the idea that the barrier between the living and the dead becomes more permeable.
There were Roman festivals that were practiced around May 13th that sort of venerated the dead, those who had gone before, and even posited the idea that the dead might be in contact that night. Samhain seems to have had an element of that as well, where the power of the ancestors is invoked to try to help increase yields in the future, to preserve the people over the course of the long winter months.
So when you move into the early medieval history of the church, a lot of officials are wanting to reach out in a variety of ways to pagan peoples, people who practice the old religions, and bring them into the Christian fold. And one way they do that is by trying to adopt and then co-opt, transform practices that are very popular amongst them.
And one of the things they'll do is to move that festival that in Roman culture happens around May 13th or May 16th to the end of October. And during that point of transition from the greater light to the greater darkness, they will set aside the observance on November the 1st of what's called All Hallows Eve. And the idea behind that initially was to celebrate the saints, because during the early medieval period, the concept of sainthood is beginning to rise in prominence in the medieval church. And so first and foremost, they set it as a day to celebrate the saints and the way the saints, through their great actions, have set aside treasury and merit for people. That whole sacramental system is developing within the Catholic church.
People are also having a need to acknowledge their own ancestors, as well, not just the sort of super sanctified Christians represented by the Saints, but people that are dear to them, as well. And so they'll also eventually create another day, November 2nd, which is All Souls Day. All Hallows Day is set aside to commemorate the Saints. November 2nd is set aside to commemorate others who have gone before. So October 31st becomes known as All Hallows Eve, the day before All Hallows Day. And eventually it gets transformed from All Hallows Eve or Even to Halloween, the compound word, it gets all incorporated together.
That cycle really becomes popular by the end of the 12th century. It goes through a period of evolution, but we see pretty good evidence that by the end of the 12th century or the 1100s, it's very well established. There were some monks that were headquartered around Cluny in France in the early 900s who began to be very taken with that whole cycle. And so the Cluniacs especially helped to popularize that so that by the end of the 1100s, it's a pretty central part and pretty widely accepted observance within the Catholic Church.
[00:20:25] Josh Hutchinson: Is there a relationship between Halloween and the Day of the Dead?
[00:20:32] Scott Culpepper: There is, and again it stems through the Church, because so many of the areas that commemorate the Day of the Dead, especially in Latin America, Spain, Italy. These are places that are very heavily Catholic influenced, and it's an interesting sort of joining of popular folklore and Catholic tradition.
So definitely, I would say they stem from many of the same roots, and I think you see that, especially in the fact that some of the rites of Mardi Gras, Fat Tuesday, and Carnivale, in parts of Latin America, they're similar to things that are done on the Day of the Dead. They have a similar purpose, commemorating those who have gone before, especially in cultures that believe in purgatory, praying for those you love to advance through purgatory well.
So yes, definitely there are affinities there, and it's just a great recipe. It's a great mix. As we were talking about earlier, Sarah said the importance of acknowledging mythology and the richness of it. We try to draw these hard barriers, these hard lines, especially in a lot of contemporary cultures, and the reality is it's all a big soup flowing together. It's the Christian traditions, it's the pagan traditions. Once all of that arrives in North and South America, it's the traditions of the Native peoples there, as well. You see like, say, the Virgin of Guadalupe. She is so much an amalgamation of Christian and Native conceptions. In many ways, she's a combination of the Virgin Mary and conceptions of an Aztec goddess forged together. It's interesting how that soup of mythology, folklore, just blends together and creates these traditions.
[00:22:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's really intriguing, the connection there and the merge of those two.
[00:22:21] Sarah Jack: And I really love the soup metaphor, just because, thinking of the cauldron.
[00:22:26] Scott Culpepper: Yes. Yes.
[00:22:27] Sarah Jack: but
[00:22:28] Scott Culpepper: I saw a special a while ago, I think it was produced by the History Channel, where they were talking about the legend of the witch, how it began to arise in the late medieval and early modern period. And they noted the fact that these are primarily women who are being accused of witchcraft, and her tools are born of the domestic sphere. And they talk about the ordinary household broom and the ordinary household cauldron that is used for cooking and how that becomes incorporated into the legends as the tools of the witch, because those are the tools that women would have used in that culture.
[00:23:02] Sarah Jack: What is Hallowtide?
[00:23:04] Scott Culpepper: Hallowtide is that whole sort of sweep of events, that whole cycle from the very end of October through the beginning of November. And it's just a time of commemorating death, rebirth, new life, and of course is very central to the background of what eventually is going to become our celebration of Halloween.
[00:23:27] Josh Hutchinson: And when did Halloween come to America?
[00:23:31] Scott Culpepper: It comes pretty early in the sense, and I, to kind of preface that, it would be important to talk about where it stood in the British Isles, especially, but in other parts of Europe, too, about the time that the American colonies began to come together. The Reformation had really affected people's concept in the British Isles of Halloween and how its origins played into current politics and culture. You'd had the reform movements, the Protestant Reformation. You'd had the answering Catholic reform movements within the Catholic Church.
In the British Isles, especially, Halloween is suspect because of its Catholic associations, which is interesting. Now it's suspect because of its supposed supernatural or demonic associations. At the time, it was suspect because they rightly saw it as a very Catholic sort of observance. And of course, Protestants reject the idea of purgatory. And so the entire premise of this in many ways, and also they reject saints. So the whole premise of this cycle of days is a problem for them.
And so they very actively campaigned against it. Protestantism as it comes to the fore in England is somewhat puzzled about how to deal with it. Under Henry VIII, they really didn't do much about it because he was a very pragmatic sort of reformer. With Edward, his son, he tries to ban observances of Halloween, and then of course with his sister, Mary, they go the other way. Mary tries to revive it because of her Catholicism. Finally, under Elizabeth, Protestantism gains control of the conversation, and Halloween is less often commemorated.
But then at the very beginning of the 17th century, in 1605, you get the infamous Gunpowder Plot, where Guy Fawkes tries to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and immediately after that, the year after Guy Fawkes is executed for that crime, you get the birth of Guy Fawkes Day. And so during the 17th century, a lot of the things we associate with Halloween, they're being practiced as part of Guy Fawkes Day observances, and it's an interesting patchwork quilt where you see Guy Fawkes being magnified, the Guy Fawkes Day celebration in some parts of the British Isles. And in those pockets where Catholicism is stronger, you see still Halloween or at least those sort of pre-Halloween observances still practiced.
And it's interesting, because a lot of the customs are the same for both. They'll have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. For instance, one thing that's practiced in the Catholic tradition at the time of Halloween is that poor people would go to the homes of people who are a little bit more affluent, and they would ask for offerings to pray for the souls of those who had gone before, those who are in purgatory. So if you're a poor person, you go to a family and say, "if you give me something, I will give prayers throughout the rest of the year for your family members who have gone on." Of course, Protestants are not open to that theology, but it becomes a way still of gathering alms. And so here you see the incipient origins of the idea of trick-or-treat, the idea of people coming for candy.
So I go into all that as background just to say that it was in a very interesting place in the British Isles. And so when colonists first came to America, they brought that with them. If you had more Protestant immigrants, they're going to tend to commemorate Guy Fawkes Day more in that Protestant tradition. If you're a Scotch-Irish immigrant, you're from the Highlands or whatever, and you're more Catholic in your orientation, you'll probably practice some of those older versions of Halloween folklore, Halloween observances. But it's interesting because some of the customs were the same all around. Looks like it really begins to get a lot of attention from people like Longfellow and Hawthorne in the 19th century. Robert Burns had been writing about it in his Scottish poetry in the late 18th century. It's being practiced, it's part of the custom.
Probably about the mid to late 19th century is when it really starts to get traction in American culture. I've heard some people refer to the Civil War and say that the large number of dead coming out of the Civil War may have given an impetus to this obsession with the dead, with commemorating the dead, with the idea of the veil between this world and the next, as that's also the time when spiritualism is really popular in American culture, probably in part because of all the deaths that were suffered during the Civil War and people's desire to get in touch with their loved ones. So that seems to be the moment when it becomes more popular, although it's a very different sort of celebration then than it's ultimately going to become.
[00:28:19] Josh Hutchinson: What would it have been like around the end of the 19th century?
[00:28:25] Scott Culpepper: Very interesting, very different, but you can see the beginnings, the contours of what we do now in it. You had this whole tradition, of course, of the gift giving, people coming and petitioning for gifts, and that was still a present thing.
There was this tradition of the Lords of Misrule in the early modern period, where people would also play pranks. It was a time a lot like some of the other festivals, too, like Carnival, where you had this inversion of the social structure, where people could pretend to be something else, and you would have people put on masks and basically pretend to be something other than they were. They could dress like a lord or a lady.
And sometimes people would engage in pranks that were quite cruel. They would damage property. There were instances in the early modern period where people challenged each other to go and to mock a witch as a way of essentially trying to control malevolent powers in the area. So some poor woman is going to be beset by people accusing her of being a witch. And a lot of those sort of customs continue, probably carried by Irish and Scottish immigrants into the late 19th century.
You get a lot of pranks during Halloween, and it begins to get out of hand, so much so that by the time of the Great Depression, there are people who are concerned that there's too much vandalism, too much rowdiness, the holiday has gotten very out of control, and so it's during the Great Depression that retailers and other culture producers begin to work to transform the holiday.
They basically set out to tame the holiday, and one of the ways they're going to do that is by making it a more child focused event. They'll take some of these customs, such as coming and asking for favors to be granted, trick-or-treat, and they'll start to encourage the idea of giving candy to those who come, people coming just to seek gifts for nothing in return, as a way to pacify those who might engage in more socially unacceptable behaviors, and this actually came from a custom where people would sometimes pay folks off that they thought were going to engage in rowdy behavior. In the 1910s, 1920s, some people who want to protect their property, they would pay folks off. And so this is a way of taming that, making it more culturally acceptable.
[00:30:57] Josh Hutchinson: And you talked about how Halloween was frowned upon by the English Reformation movement and was somewhat vilified as this Catholic practice. When did it begin to be vilified as demonic or satanic?
[00:31:14] Scott Culpepper: Probably I would say a more modern vintage because in the 1950s and early 1960s, it was a fairly mainstream sort of holiday. American culture had done a really good job of making it a cherished family observance. And that seemed to be very widely accepted. I've seen a lot of people give tremendous credit to the Great Pumpkin episode of Charlie Brown as a way to mainstream Halloween, which I'd never thought of. I watched it every year as a kid and never thought about the fact that this was a very representative presentation of what people do on Halloween to a culture that may not have been as familiar with it as we would think.
Also, they talked about Disney cartoons. Donald Duck had several episodes where he was featured with his nephews trick-or-treating. And so they're mainstreaming these practices through these cultural artifacts, and it seems very innocent and fairly well regarded. You had people dressing up like the Wicked Witch from Wizard of Oz, and nobody's really batting an eye.
The hostility seems to have really arisen powerfully during the late 60s and early 70s when you've got this whole series of upheavals associated with the counterculture, a lot of older people's mistrust of young people. You've got things like Anton LaVey founding the Church of Satan and some people having concerns about what that is and how exactly it's going to influence the culture, so it seems that is the point where you have a little bit of a tipping point where you've got concerns about demonic activity.
I'm sure you could find evidence of, especially fundamentalist groups, even as early as the 1950s, are criticizing the idea of people dressing as witches and things like that. That's a perennial thing in American culture, but it really gets legs in the 60s and 70s, anxieties about where culture is going, things changing, some people think too fast. And then these legends that persist that are universal, that have always been there, as well. They're meeting the moment.
Really goes into overdrive in the late 70s, early 80s, with the development of Satanic Panic. You've got Michelle Remembers, Michelle Smith, and Lawrence Pazder released this memoir where she claims to have recovered memories of satanic ritual abuse, which were later demonstrated to be completely false. And so you get this whole movement concerned about satanic covens in the hinterlands practicing satanic ritual abuse.
You get things like in a 1982, this Tylenol scare where you had several people that actually did die from tainted Tylenol in the Chicago area, a case which is still open. It's still never been solved, and, associated with that, you started to get accounts of Halloween candy being tampered with. There may have been one or two instances where that actually happened, but as one historian said, we don't know if it's a case of the chicken or the egg. We don't know if somebody did that at some point in one isolated case and it started something or if that was a reaction to the legends that grew. And where there has been demonstrated evidence of any tampering with Halloween candy, it was in the case of a family member doing that to children in their family because of issues they had because of problems in the marriage and just a lot of emotional issues, and so it's within that family. It's not someone setting out to do this to strangers, but the legends really grew during the eighties, and that's when you get this full-fledged belief among at least a minority of the population that Halloween is a demonic time, a time when Satan is at work and evil things can happen and evil people are trying to harm the innocents.
[00:35:12] Sarah Jack: And is that about the time that the theories about the witches' Sabbaths became inaccurately passed and affected legends around alleged witchcraft in the modern period?
[00:35:26] Scott Culpepper: To some degree. They've always had their cycles. They are very prominent at certain times. As you so well know, the early modern period, which was the big age of very intense witchcraft hunts in Europe, and then the cycle in America with the Connecticut witch, trials with the Salem Witch Trials, and that never absolutely goes away at American culture.
It goes into hibernation. But as you talk about all the time, it's still there. It's always in the background informing and creating accusations and false understandings of who people are. Like we said earlier, Margaret Murray's work, the folklorist in the early 20th century, did a lot to prompt people to speculate about whether there weren't actual rituals going on on which the witchcraft accusations were based.
For a while, people were really intensely into studying that possibility, and it was a big fixture in academia. And that's a great illustration of the fact that academia is not perfect. We struggle towards the truth. We try to understand the evidence as best we can. Sometimes that means eventually we have to let go of pet theories. And that was one of the ones that was let go of pretty much by the early seventies. Most scholars would acknowledge by then there's no real evidence of any major organized movement that would have rightly been identified as even a revival of what was perceived as ancient pagan worship. That's all mythology, but the cycle of belief in it, it just ebbs and flows.
It's very powerful in the early 20th century, very powerful in the 60s and 70s and 80s. And what's so interesting is the interplay of different groups. This is not just the creation of fundamentalist Christians, although they certainly are going to thrive off of it and they're going to incorporate it quite a bit. But Hollywood's obsessed with that, as well. You've got Rosemary's Baby. You've got lesser known films. When Sharon Tate was killed tragically by the Manson family, one of the things that some outlets showed were stills from a picture that she was in called Eye of the Devil a few years ago, and they alleged that Sharon Tate was involved with a satanic cult. She wasn't. She had been in this movie, and they were stills from that movie. The Exorcist, which William Friedkin just died this week, that was the director of that film. The Omen. Just a lot of interesting cultural artifacts that connected with those fears and anxieties and then connected with Christian theology, as well. And some groups just really use those to highlight.
And so the template they've got for like the satanic groups and Rosemary's Baby, the satanic coven there in the uh, apartment building where she lives, the practices that you see on TV, they're crafted and shaped by those legends. It just grows like a snowball.
There's a scholar named Joseph Laycock who has done some work on Dungeons and Dragons, and he's done some work on the Satanic Temple. He's got a book coming out later this fall that he wrote with someone else. I'm not sure who his coauthor is, but they are looking at how Hollywood films have shaped religious practice in American culture, and they're looking at films like The Exorcist, and they're going to look at The Conjuring series, and they're talking about how the exorcism ritual in the Catholic Church changes in many ways, and people's expectation of what it can do and what it is, changes because of The Exorcist, because of this cultural product that is created by Hollywood entrepreneurs that are just wanting to entertain people but has a very real impact over religious practice.
And so I see those legends of witches sabbaths and all that as serving the same role. It really through those different forms of media conditions what we expect, how we see the past and the rituals of the past.
[00:39:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's amazing how pop culture can influence people's behavior.
[00:39:30] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, it's incredible. And both positively and negatively, because on the one hand, you've got the continuation of these terrible misconceptions about what women may have been practicing in earlier times and this idea of the witch as a malevolent figure. But then you get to the 90s, especially the late 90s, and you get this whole collection of media products that are celebrating the power of the witch.
Even in the 60s and 70s, the notion of the witch or the liberated woman is transformed into this idea of a woman who has power, a woman who has agency. And that's probably part of the kickback against the notion of witchcraft and Satanism, as well. People who were threatened by second and third wave feminism, they often linked witchcraft, especially modern witchcraft like Wicca to women undermining the system or whatever. And in their attempts to do that, of course, they often misrepresent contemporary practitioners of Wicca by using the old tropes. They associate them with the old, legendary behaviors of witches in the past. But you get a refurbishment of the image of the witch, you get Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Willow, and you get movies like The Craft, and increasingly Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and it becomes something that's actually cool in American culture.
And it's a double-edged sword. You guys have talked about this really well on the podcast in the past. On the one hand, it's created this new religious tradition, and it's very empowering for many women who are part of practicing it. On the other hand, it does muddy the waters when it comes to trying to assess the harmful legacy of witchcraft trials, because you never want to accept the illusion that was cast by their persecutors that these women were guilty of anything. And there is a tendency within those revived pagan religions or neo-pagan religions to want to find connections to the past and want to say these women must have been proto-Wiccans or whatever, which, as we all know, does a disservice to their memory, because more than likely they were not guilty of anything but just being different sometimes in a society that didn't tolerate difference well.
[00:41:50] Megan: Hello everybody, this is Megan, and welcome to Tea Time Crimes, the true crime podcast that explores women's stories under the lens of murder and mayhem. Each week my co-host Alana and I delve into the psychology of killers, the strength of survivors, and everywhere in between.
[00:42:07] Alana: Wait, what? I thought this was a tea podcast.
[00:42:09] Megan: Oh yeah. And Alana is left completely in the dark for each episode. So join us every week for a fascinating case with Alana's fresh perspective and a comprehensive yet accidentally comedic tea review.
[00:42:21] Alana: I bring the tea, and she brings the crimes.
[00:42:24] Megan: Find us wherever you listen to your podcasts.
[00:42:27] Alana: Tea Time Crimes, out.
[00:42:31] Josh Hutchinson: It's amazing how few references there actually are in the colonial witch trial records to actual magical practices. The appearance, at least, is that of all the people accused of witchcraft, like a very small minority were doing some kind of magic, and the rest had probably nothing to do with it at all.
[00:42:56] Scott Culpepper: And it's amazing when you look back at those kind of practices. Those women are noted for doing that because they ultimately get involved in these witchcraft accusations. But how many other people were doing things like that? That was not as well documented. What kind of folk superstitions did people practice every day that just didn't attract the attention of the authorities, because they weren't on the margins or they didn't fit the profile?
[00:43:20] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and I've had a question recently and some of this conversation is clarifying it for me, but it I feel like interested in understanding in the last 300 years or less, how did we as a American culture forget what those ancestors, six, seven, eight generations back, what their symbols of protective magic were that they had hidden in their home? Like, how did we become confused about images? I also think about how Hollywood or fears associated with the devil vilified specific symbols, like really boldly for generations and generations, but the actual, historical protective magic that many people had passed down, we are surprised now when we're finding them in these historical buildings and during research.
[00:44:20] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, symbolism has changed so much through the centuries. You look at something like the swastika, which was a part of Hindu belief at one point, and then it became incorporated as a Christian symbol, and then reversed and transformed, it becomes the symbol of antisemitism and Nazi Germany, and of course, very rightfully becomes so notorious.
The pentagram is now so tied to occult activity and Satanism in American popular cultures, but there are times it was incorporated as a Christian symbol. There've been times when it was used simply to highlight the elemental forces of nature in alchemical beliefs. So yeah, the transformation of those symbols is just incredible, and it is amazing how we lose contact with their meanings even within the span of one lifetime, much less over the course of decades or centuries.
[00:45:11] Sarah Jack: There's other things that have just endured for centuries, but other stuff falls away.
[00:45:18] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, and there's a temptation to want to tie that to institutional sponsorship or protection, and that is some of it, especially Christianity. The Christian church has been a very powerful preserver and negator of cultural elements, depending on the need. But at the same time, you get these interesting symbols that survive despite that, ones that have been suppressed and others that have been pushed forward have gone by the wayside, so I guess the institutional sponsorship or protection is part of it but it's not the whole story. It's complicated.
[00:45:53] Josh Hutchinson: I want to talk about Halloween symbolism a little. And part of that is I'm wondering about things like the origin of the jack-o-lantern and where we got the colors for Halloween. It's generally orange and black, maybe a little purple thrown in. Can you explain some of the origins of those traditions?
[00:46:16] Scott Culpepper: Yes, definitely. There was a custom during the nights when the bonfires were lit and people were doing these commemorations for the dead of putting a light in the turnip so that people could walk along and light the path as people are progressing through the woods or whatever. And that evolves into jack-o-lanterns in the early modern period as a more durable and a bigger sort of product to carry that light in. There was a legend about a guy named Jack who was so bad that he went to hell and the Devil decided he didn't want him in hell and so he ejects him from hell and condemns him to walk the earth. And he gives him, as a small comfort, a light to light his way as he walks the earth, and supposedly that's in a pumpkin. So that was one of the folklore streams that fed into the origin of the jack-o-lantern, as well.
The colors, black obviously from the darkness of the night, and associations with the supernatural, maybe even the malevolent supernatural. I think the orange probably arises from the continuing central place of the jack-o-lantern in the celebrations. And so black and orange just naturally arise from the incorporation of those symbols. And then the purple, I don't know, it's not quite as easy to say. It matches well and that may be one aspect of it. And that seems to be a more contemporary addition, the purple and sometimes the green, as well. You're seeing like some green, which I assume may have something to do with the stalk of the jack o lantern.
Those have been incorporated more recently. It's worth noting that a lot of that different innovation has come in the last 30 or 40 years, where you have Halloween lights, which has led to a further embracing of those colors of Halloween. And part of the reason for that is because the kids that enjoyed Halloween in the 50s and on through the eighties, they have now become the adults with kids of their own. The holiday has become a very adult holiday once again. It's come full circle. It's still very kid friendly, but it's very adult focused, as well.
It's like a billion dollar industry now every year. And a lot of that is adult costuming, not kid costuming, and the lights and all that as well. So I think part of that's commercial. The colors have become embedded, and then they've expanded on them, as well. They become a little more creative with the palette so that they can create better products.
[00:48:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I remember as a younger adult how important Halloween was as just a festival and a time to have a party, and everybody dresses up. The adults all embrace the costuming very much. And yeah, then you just do the traditional Halloween things, but in an adult setting.
[00:49:09] Scott Culpepper: That draw to be someone else, to be something else for just a little bit, it's pervasive in our culture now. We see it not just at Halloween, but cosplay, things like Comic Con, Renaissance festivals, and the LARPing that's associated with those now, just that pull to be able for a little bit to be somebody else, to be somebody we admire or to be the monster. I heard one historian say it's fun to put on the mask of the monster, because the idea is if you're the monster, then the monster can't hurt you.
[00:49:41] Josh Hutchinson: A thread that's come up in this episode so far has been the subversive nature of Halloween, flipping things on their head. You talked about the power structure being inverted and people costuming to be the wealthy, but there's also that costuming to be the scary, and yeah, it seems like almost a night that you want to get a lot out of your system.
[00:50:09] Scott Culpepper: Yes. And that's not only tied to Halloween, but that's tied to the Guy Fawkes traditions, as well. As you probably know, one of the things they have done is burn a figure in effigy, and it started out as Guy Fawkes. Now it's everybody. You're not really somebody significant in British politics if you haven't been burned in effigy on Guy Fawkes night. Almost everybody gets that treatment at some point.
And yeah, in American cultures as well, we see masks that look like our political leaders or look like pop culture leaders, and people like to dress up like them. And sometimes they'll do it in a mocking sort of way. It's an inversion. I get to be this powerful figure for a night, either as a show of admiration or as a way to poke fun at them.
[00:50:54] Josh Hutchinson: And now Halloween's become the the fall version of Christmas, in regards to, you talked about the lights being put up and the decorations all over the yard. It's a very Christmassy almost co-opted a holiday. I can't think of too many holidays where you go that all out to decorate.
[00:51:17] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. It is, what is this, August 10th, the day that we're recording, and I just went to what formerly was a very well cherished store that sold products for bath and for smelling good and all of that at one point. Rest in peace. And literally, rest in peace, because now it is a Spirit Halloween, and I just went on August the 8th, so they are already open, and they are active. Like you said, it's like the Christmas season, it starts, it's a three month affair now, at least.
[00:51:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw people celebrating Summerween this year.
[00:51:56] Scott Culpepper: Oh, wow.
[00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: Doing, like it was the middle of the summer, dress up and do jack-o-lanterns and things like that.
[00:52:04] Sarah Jack: It's a jack-o-watermelon, wasn't it?
[00:52:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, they were doing watermelons, yes.
[00:52:10] Scott Culpepper: Oh, that's great.
[00:52:12] Josh Hutchinson: Summerfy, or whatever.
[00:52:14] Scott Culpepper: I interact with a lot of horror movie fans and a lot of agents as well that do, they try to represent horror novels and other works for publication. When they get to October 1st, they'll release their schedule of the movies that they're going to view that month. They've got all of their favorite Halloween films and 31 days, 31 movies. It's amazing how many people are doing that now.
[00:52:39] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. Yeah, I've actually found myself starting earlier and earlier in the year to watch the classic horror movies and the new horror movies. It seems like by Labor Day, if not even earlier than that, people are getting geared towards Halloween.
[00:53:01] Scott Culpepper: There's this email service that I think operates out of Substack. It's called Dracula Daily. Yeah, Dracula famously is an epistolary novel made up of letters and journal entries. This service sends you an email for every day there's a dated entry in Dracula. And so you start with Jonathan Harker's journal, which starts in early May, and they'll send you an email throughout the summer. And so it covers the whole story, Jonathan's experience, the voyage of the Demeter, and all of that. And then it picks up with Mina and other characters. And pretty much from early May until early November, they will send you an email every day there's an entry in the journal. And so you're following the story in real time throughout the summer and into the early fall.
[00:53:47] Josh Hutchinson: Wow, that's like half the year.
[00:53:50] Scott Culpepper: Yeah.
[00:53:51] Sarah Jack: I love that.
[00:53:53] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we love the dedication that we see among Halloween fans.
[00:53:57] Scott Culpepper: Yeah. It's neat.
[00:54:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
[00:54:02] Sarah Jack: I've been curious, the last three years or so was so affected by the pandemic and sickness and that first fall when towns were canceling the trick or treating. And then I loved some of the creative ideas people had, shooting candy down these long pipes down their stairs and I think some of that's gonna stick around and it's so fun to, you know, have your bag at the bottom and it comes shooting down but I'm wondering, you know, are people going to have like just so many parties they can't get to all of them this year, and what other ways is it possibly going to surge larger because we're not being held back as much?
[00:54:49] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. I think we're seeing what a huge community gathering place it is, that it is a great moment for bringing people together and fostering community and, yeah, I agree. I think we're going to see even more of that. And it was really cool to see the creative ways that people tried to deal with it during the pandemic.
We left candy out for people where they could drive up and just take it. And that's not quite the same, but it was neat to see the resilience of people overcoming those horrible barriers that we were dealing with.
[00:55:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And I know that last year was a record year in Salem for October visits. They had over a million people come in the month of October, and it's a town of 40,000 or something. And yeah, I could see it getting even bigger this year. Seems like as many people as will fit in Salem will go there.
[00:55:48] Scott Culpepper: That is Oh My Bucket List. I may be crazy because it sounds really busy, but I would love to go to Salem and Halloween at some point. That sounds like a lot of fun.
[00:55:59] Josh Hutchinson: I was there in October probably seven years ago. And yeah, it was just this whole carnival atmosphere to the whole city.
[00:56:10] Scott Culpepper: That's another of those strange aspects of all this. I've had some people, as I've been working on the Satanic Panic book that I've been researching, who have said, you've been really good at highlighting the dangers of this kind of thought, and the terrible consequences, but don't forget that one of the reasons why this became such a cultural phenomena is that for some people, it was fun because they enjoy being scared. And that's one of the interesting things about the whole Halloween mythos and all of the mythologies that go into it, as well. As some of it has caused great harm and there's no doubt at the same time, we love it. We love to scare ourselves, and I think sometimes even the people that act most offended in culture and do some of the terrible things, there's a part of them that kind of likes being scared. They like the notion that they're engaged in some great crusade, light versus darkness or whatever, and so you see that really in those festivities, in those celebrations. We, even those of us who know that these dark legends are not true, we still enjoy scaring ourselves with them this time of year.
[00:57:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I really buy into the movies when I'm watching them. You can't help but get caught up in the emotions, and the fright is part of that. Why do you think people are so attracted to horror?
[00:57:33] Scott Culpepper: At one point, I was reading this book by a lady named Judith Flanders, a scholar named Judith Flanders, called The Invention of Murder. And she was talking about why we love murder mystery so much. It seems contradictory because we're reading stories about violence being done to somebody, and why is that comforting for us to read on a rainy night? And for her, she said, there's some comfort in it because it's happening out there. It's not happening right in front of you. It's a fantasy world that you can go to where these terrible things are happening, but at the end of the day, you can come back to your normal world, your normal life.
And I think there's something to that. I think we like the thrill of it. It's the same reason why people love roller coasters. We like to live on the edge, but in safe ways, we like to experience a little bit of that adrenaline rush, but in a way that preserves our life and limb, that's not dangerous to us.
I've always loved ghost stories, and I'm not a believer in ghosts, but I enjoy the mystery, the thrill. It just really pulls me in. That's probably my favorite type of horror story is a good ghost story. M. R. James or Edgar Allen Poe or whoever, it just really just enjoy the fascination, the gothic settings that it just transports you to another world.
[00:58:54] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I agree. I'm also a ghost fan, especially ghost children, if they're good or bad. I just love that element. When they're meddling in, whatever the storyline is for good or bad in one of my favorite films that may have that in it, is The Devil's Backbone, if you haven't seen that.
I really enjoy that one. I think another reason people enjoy reading and watching horror, it can be for that ending. Sometimes it isn't great, but sometimes you see the villain defeated or you see the person who's been running or suffering come out on top or win. And that's one of the things I like about it, but I'm a zombie fan.
[00:59:42] Scott Culpepper: Oh yeah.
[00:59:42] Sarah Jack: My very favorite thing to start the Halloween season with would be the original Night of the Living Dead and then follow them all through. There's someone's going to survive, maybe, there's that chase. Yeah, that's me.
[00:59:57] Scott Culpepper: It's worth mentioning, I just heard about this summer, the papers of George Romero are now at the University of Pittsburgh, and they're developing a whole wing of their academic library devoted to the study of horror. We're gonna see some good things hopefully come from that, the study of the horror genre.
[01:00:14] Sarah Jack: That's great.
[01:00:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, there seem to be more academic conferences. We see things on the artist formerly known as Twitter that, different academics posting conferences about folklore in pop culture and horror in pop culture, doing, starting to do studies around that.
[01:00:40] Scott Culpepper: It's funny, connected to what Sarah said about the way that pop culture both reflects and shapes what's going on the ground. It's funny to me, some of the strident Catholic opposition to movies like The Exorcist and The Conjuring series, because the Catholic Church never looked better. You do have that whole conflict of light versus darkness, and nine times out of ten in those stories, a Catholic priest is the one who's coming to save the day. And so it's funny the discomfort that some Catholics feel with those films because there's never been a better sort of vehicle to make Catholic leaders look more heroic and Catholic ritual look like a symbol of light and hope.
[01:01:23] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm thinking based on what you and Sarah have said, I'm getting, horror as it's this safe outlet where you can watch what is your worst fear, and then somebody's overcoming that fear, and that's rewarding.
[01:01:41] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, I really love the ability of horror to make such profound social commentary. Just like a Night of the Living Dead, or Psycho, or you name it, there's so many horror films that are so much deeper than just the surface level story, that really make some profound social commentary about the human condition, or current political trends, and you really see that reflected when you go watch some of these films and then you put 'em in their historical context or books or whatever. I really appreciate that fact that you create these fantasy worlds where you do have these horrors that people are facing and they end up saying something about real life as well, that whole concept that J R R Tolkien talked about of escaping to reality, escaping to a fantasy that teaches you something about real life.
[01:02:32] Josh Hutchinson: You've mentioned a number of books during this conversation. Do you have any others that you recommend our listeners read to learn more about Halloween?
[01:02:43] Scott Culpepper: I think there's some really great ones out there. One of the best. It's published by Oxford Press, and it's one that I actually looked at a little bit for our conversation. It's by Nicholas Rogers, and it's called Halloween: From Pagan Observance to Party Night, which is a fantastic title, and it's an Oxford title, so those are usually very high quality scholarship. And there are a lot of others that you can find, as well, that are written at a more popular level, but get at the story behind the story, as well.
[01:03:17] Josh Hutchinson: I've been reading that book, and it's very fascinating insights into the origins of Halloween and how we got all the traditions.
[01:03:27] Scott Culpepper: Someone else who's really good at almost all the holidays is a scholar named Stephen Nissenbaum, and he's written extensively on Christmas, on Halloween, and he's written some of Witch Trials as well, so the audience would really enjoy his work.
[01:03:43] Sarah Jack: That's a really good suggestion. And when you start to use the lens that we're using today to look at Halloween, just across all the types of observances and seeing the influences and the individuals that were influencing and what was influencing them, that's so important, and that carries over to looking at the witch trials and the documents, how those were formed, what was informing those people. It's all really important to start dissecting and looking, what was shifting through these times and impacting the beliefs and the fears and.
[01:04:25] Scott Culpepper: It really is a neat form of detective work. I mean, you're sort of like a historical detective reading all these different layers of tradition and folklore, historical record, and then trying to discern the reality of what was happening and not just the reality of what actually transpired, but the reality of what people thought about what was transpiring as well and how that affected their actions.
And I think Thou Shalt Not Suffer is a great vehicle for Thank you. Putting people in contact with those primary and secondary sources, as historians call them, like giving them the chance to look for themselves. And one of the great things about the world that we're in right now is that so much of it is being digitized. So it is really awesome to go to an archive, there's nothing quite like it, and actually touch a document that historical figures touch. So I would definitely recommend that if anybody ever has the opportunity, but also if you can't do that, so much of it is at our fingertips, and even more so every day. So it's an exciting time to be interested in any form of historical study. And in this field especially, because it's just taking off right now, the study of the past of witch trials and coming to grips with that history. It's a really good time to explore the facets of that history.
[01:05:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we had the opportunity this last spring in May to go to Connecticut to what was known as the Connecticut Historical Society at the time, I think it's now the Connecticut Museum of Culture and History but we were able to see Reverend Samuel Parris sermon book the original book with his handwriting in it, and that was so amazing, and we saw a couple other documents from Connecticut Witch Trials, the originals, and yeah, there's nothing like that experience.
[01:06:19] Scott Culpepper: That tactile contact with the past is just incredible. That I touch something that these people touch that you've been reading about. Just, yes, it's just a great experience. I'm glad you had a chance to do that.
[01:06:33] Josh Hutchinson: It was so exciting. Just, I was stunned when I saw what they had out displayed for us because we met, it was basically a delegation of us and Dr. Leo Igwe went there to get some information on the Connecticut Witch Trials. And the people there had put all these things out on display just for us. And it was, when I saw Samuel Parris's notebook and they told me what it was, I about fainted.
[01:07:04] Scott Culpepper: Wow. That's amazing.
[01:07:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it was so cool, but I like you talked about how these things are also available digitally so anybody from anywhere can access, say the records from the Salem Witch Trials. There's a lot from Connecticut Witch Trials online also. So I encourage readers definitely read the primary sources, and if you want to know how to find a primary source, just get in contact with us and we'll let you know.
[01:07:37] Scott Culpepper: That's great.
[01:07:39] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Next, I'd like to talk to you about what you're working on right now and what's next for Scott Culpepper, beginning with what are some of the courses that you're teaching this year?
[01:07:55] Scott Culpepper: I teach a wide variety, because my institution's a fairly small college, so you do a lot across the spectrum, but this fall, I'm teaching our basic introductory civilization course, and then I'm teaching a course on Latin America. Next spring, I'm teaching the second part of Civilization, and I'm teaching a course that used to be called Renaissance and Reformation, but I got my hands on it, and I've changed the title to Witch Hunts, Wars, and Reformations, and so that one will be very heavy on witch trials. We'll do a witch trial simulation and be looking into that history, so I'll be teaching that one.
And another one that is really going to be fun. I've done it one time before, but we're going to make some tweaks to it. It's like an immersive simulation course where we do three historical simulations. There's a consortium, a group of people that works out of Columbia University and Barnard College in New York called Reacting to the Past. And they create these large scale historical simulations that play out over the course of about three weeks. And I'm going to do that class. I haven't decided what three simulations we're going to do. I know one of them is going to be India on the eve of independence in the 1940s. Last time we did something on the Wanli emperor succession crisis in China and something on Rwanda during the period of the genocide. So that was a really good class for just immersing people in the history. We may do it a little bit different. It may not be just international topics. So I'm looking forward to that one as well. That's what I'm going to do over the course of the next year, as far as teaching.
[01:09:29] Sarah Jack: That's exciting, powerful stuff.
[01:09:32] Scott Culpepper: It's a lot of fun. I enjoy exploring it, and students are great. They really get engaged with it. As far as writing and research goes, I'm still working on the Satanic Panic book, and I am talking with and working with an editor at a publisher. I shouldn't announce yet who it is, because everything hasn't been signed and sealed yet, but hopefully I'll know something for certain about that soon. And he has been really good to help with that and to open new avenues of exploration. So I'm pretty excited about that.
And I'm interviewing a lot of people connected to that, both historians and scholars of religion who have worked on the topic before, and also people who are actually involved in it. That's really getting underway. I'm doing more of those in connection with the work.
So at some point, I'd like to take those and package those in either a podcast form or some other outlet. Podcast is what I'm thinking. Maybe do some of these interviews and cut them and put them out there for public consumption. Because like we were saying earlier, so much has already been done that people are not aware of. So it would be great to put some of this information in a forum that was accessible to people if they have an interest in exploring this stuff, that's something I'm thinking about as well.
[01:10:47] Josh Hutchinson: That sounds like a really interesting and informative program.
[01:10:53] Sarah Jack: I can hear from what you're saying how you had a vision of what you wanted to be able to review, research and give, and you're seeing how there's these other layers and bigger ways to get it out there. That's exciting. Absolutely
[01:11:09] Scott Culpepper: It's opened up a lot of worlds that I didn't even know were there. And one thing I want to try to do, I've been trying to be more conscious of this as I've been working the last month or so, is to document the process as well. Like you were saying, it's really fun, and it's really interesting how this comes together, and I don't know that a lot of people really know much about that process from conception to your finished idea. You just see these books spring forth fully grown. So one thing I'd like to do as part of the road to publishing this is release videos or audio connected with the process and maybe write some blog articles as well about how I did this and what I thought about it in the beginning and then, like you were saying, the ways in which that was reshaped and changed as I got deeper into the research. So hopefully it can do that. I've started putting aside those tidbits so that anybody who's interested can see the ingredients that went into the mix, as well.
[01:12:07] Sarah Jack: It'll really maximize the outcome and the influence of the work. That's great.
[01:12:12] Scott Culpepper: Hopefully so, definitely.
[01:12:15] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, definitely be listening and watching whenever you put anything online, especially if you're interviewing people that have been involved in the Satanic Panic, that just really, intrigues me.
[01:12:30] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, the people that you can get to talk have got really interesting stories to share. And there are some people you have to let it go because they will never speak, but it's surprising who will. And it's fun to get some of those insights.
[01:12:45] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:12:49] Sarah Jack: Join us next week if you dare.
[01:12:52] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:12:55] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:12:58] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and trick-or-treaters about the show.
[01:13:04] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end with Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:13:09] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

October 12, 2023

Owen Davies on Grimoires, Magic, and Witch Hunts
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Esteemed Historian, Folklorist and Author Owen Davies talks about his upcoming new book release: Art of the Grimoire: An Illustrated History of Magic Books and Spells available Oct, 10th. Every culture and every period has magic. Learn about the global history of written magic and how it has evolved in conjunction with religion and science. This episode continues the message and questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?

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Owen Davies, Professor at University of Hertfordshire

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October 5, 2023

Omens with The Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast

The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast

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Happy Halloween has begun on our show. Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast hosts The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery podcast in a conversation around death and omens. Guest podcasters Jennie Johnson and Dianne Hartshorn share their research around burial rituals and animal signs. We discuss how omens and signs are interpreted in different ways by different cultures. Why is death feared by some and celebrated by others? Join us for our first haunted talk of the 2023 spooky season.

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Transcript

[00:00:06] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:11] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:13] Josh Hutchinson: How's your fall going, Sarah Jack?
[00:00:15] Sarah Jack: I am so excited it's here.
[00:00:17] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, you ready for Halloween?
[00:00:20] Sarah Jack: Yes.
[00:00:21] Josh Hutchinson: I'm still working on putting my costume together. How are you doing in that department?
[00:00:28] Sarah Jack: I have all of it. I'm going all out for Sally this year.
[00:00:33] Josh Hutchinson: Sally?
[00:00:34] Sarah Jack: The nightmare before Christmas. She's not a witch, but she does have a bad vision, and she needs to warn Jack. So it actually goes with this episode, because she's sees this vision of Christmas and then it goes up in flames.
What do you have to get together for your Halloween costume?
[00:00:59] Josh Hutchinson: I decided this year I'm going to go as both a pirate and a witch and be a pirate witch. So I need a pirate ensemble and a witch hat and a cape and like a wand and a cutlass and a zombie parrot.
[00:01:19] Sarah Jack: That's awesome.
[00:01:21] Josh Hutchinson: So now I'm actually thinking of maybe becoming a space witch.
[00:01:26] Sarah Jack: Oh,
[00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: honor of Starfield. I definitely want to do something witchy this year. And speaking of Halloween, we're so happy to speak with Diane Hartshorn and Jennie Johnson from the Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast.
[00:01:43] Sarah Jack: I had followed their podcast for a year before I had any idea that I could possibly be podcasting myself. So they're one of the first podcasts that I followed on social media.
[00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: That's great. We'll be talking with them about omens, signs, portents.
[00:02:04] Sarah Jack: Welcome Dianne and Jennie, co-hosts of the Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery, a podcast that explores old cemeteries and the stories of the people buried in them. It's history. It's spooky. And they share great photographs and extra history on their wonderful social media. Be sure to find them today. We're so happy to have you guys visiting with us today. I'd love to hear more about you.
[00:02:30] Dianne Hartshorn: I'm Dianne Hartshorne, and it, we've been doing this for two, two, three years on the 8th of October, and how we got together was by sheer accident. Jennie and I were both in this Facebook group in regards to a tombstone restoration class that was going to be taking place up in Leadville, Colorado, and we just started chatting back and forth, but the class got canceled, and this was right at Covid October of 2020, and she just reached out to me and said, "Hey, would you like to do this with me?"
And I'm like, "oh my gosh, I have never done this before. I don't know." So I asked another friend, I go, "what do you think?"
And she's, "if it doesn't work, you can always not do it."
I'm like, "oh, okay."
And then, so I don't wanna sound cliche, but the rest has been history.
[00:03:25] Jennie Johnson: That's okay. She sounds cliche. I know. I completely threw her off when I had asked her to do our podcast with us, because I didn't even know what I was doing when I first said, "let's do a podcast." So I just wanted to be able to put out more information about cemeteries. I love digging up the stories of the people that are buried in them, especially people that aren't famous. There's a lot of like TikTokers and Instagrammers and stuff that do famous graves, and they talk about who those people are. And so that's easy to find, but there wasn't really anything out there for the stories about just the everyday people, but they had an impact on their communities or their families.
And that's what started our podcast. I had been doing a bunch of research about the cemeteries up near Central City in Colorado, and I, so I had all this research that I had done, and I didn't know what to do with it, and I didn't want to write a book about it. So I said, "let's just do a podcast." And because Dianne has a lot more preservation information than I had at the time, and she'd been doing it for a long time, I wanted her to join me so she could talk more on that part of the subject on how we do the preservation and taking care of headstones. And because I was just starting to learn that at the time, so I needed somebody that had more experience with that. And that was Dianne. So that's how we got together and started the Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast.
[00:04:49] Dianne Hartshorn: Yes.
[00:04:50] Jennie Johnson: And yeah, we're super excited.
[00:04:52] Sarah Jack: I'm so glad that all came together. You're filling a really important need.
[00:04:57] Jennie Johnson: Yes, it and interestingly, like Dianne said, we started our podcast in 2020. It launched in October, and there was one other podcast out at the time that was doing cemeteries, and that was Tomb With a View podcast, but Liz has a different approach generally to how she covers cemeteries. She does a lot more with the architecture, stone carvers, not quite as much about the stories like we do. So we've actually, both podcasts have covered some of the same cemeteries, but from different viewpoints. So that's been really interesting.
But, with the exception of that podcast, there weren't any others out there about cemeteries that weren't paranormal related. And I was looking for something that wasn't par I mean, I love a good ghost story, don't get me wrong. And I watch ghost hunters and I watch kindred spirits and all of that, but I wanted something that had more of the history and the real stories about the real people. And since it didn't exist, I decided I should create it. So that's how we got into the whole world of podcasting, creating what wasn't there, which I think you guys have done very well with your podcast, too. There's definitely podcasts where they've done episodes on witchcraft here and there, or they've talked about the same, like we've talked about the Salem Witch Trials, but like the fact that you guys really delve into so many of the stories about witches and all of that is fascinating to me. And you created what wasn't there.
[00:06:20] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there's definitely no other show like it in the States. There is Witches of Scotland. That's the only one that's really, like our format kind of that does witch hunts specifically.
[00:06:39] Jennie Johnson: And you've covered some stories that are lesser known, too, for the witch. I mean, you've covered some more well known ones, as well, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of witch stories out there and witch hunting that happened that people don't always realize was part of history, and you guys have covered some of those really brilliantly, which is great because again, it's something people want to know more. I think there's a lot of people that want to know more about it but don't know where to find that information. And you guys have done an excellent job presenting that information.
[00:07:10] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. There was even more out there available for us to share than I had any comprehension of. So I'm so glad, though, that we've created this catalog of experts and researchers, and if someone does want more information, there's just so much. They probably don't even know where to start at this point, 'cause we have so many. But yeah, I'm really glad that all the information has come together and new stuff comes to us every week. I'm sure you guys experienced that as well.
[00:07:41] Jennie Johnson: Oh yeah.
[00:07:41] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah.
[00:07:41] Jennie Johnson: Dianne has said it time and again, we've learned so much from what we thought we knew when we started, to the things that we've learned, especially from our guests and things.
[00:07:50] Dianne Hartshorn: And just.
[00:07:51] Jennie Johnson: Blows our mind.
[00:07:52] Dianne Hartshorn: In American history, there are so many stories that when we first started this, it was like, I didn't learn this in school. I didn't learn this in school. And it's and it seems and Jennie's really good at finding those stories that we basically weren't taught in school. So we, they're, they're fascinating. It's so much better than what we have been taught. And that's why we love sharing that, because there is just so much more out there that we need to know.
[00:08:21] Jennie Johnson: They're nuggets, they're like little gold nuggets that we find and then we can expand on those and, hopefully, our listeners have learned some things, too, but I know, and I know, and I've seen it even on stuff that we post on our social media, because I will post stuff there that doesn't make it into our podcast episodes, but just other interesting tidbits about stuff, and I've had plenty of people comment, "oh my gosh, I never even knew this, didn't know this was there, or I've been to that cemetery, but had no idea that this person was buried there." So that's always a lot of fun to see the impact that what we're sharing with everybody has on them.
[00:08:59] Josh Hutchinson: I like that you emphasize the real stories of real people. It's important for people to be remembered for who they really were.
[00:09:10] Jennie Johnson: Yes, and it gives us, I think sometimes. And again, this was where the paranormal ones get away from it. And in those podcasters and sometimes shows and stuff, you forget in a cemetery when they're trying to make it creepy and scary and all that, you forget that those people that are buried there lived like lived real lives and they had emotions and they had children and they had jobs and they had good things happen to them and bad things happen to them.
And I think people forget that sometimes when they just want to tell a good ghost story and that you lose sight of, what I say, the humanity of it, but these were all real people and I, if we can find their stories and remember them, I think that makes it so much better. And you can still have the ghost story there, too. That's fine, but just put the humanity back in these cemeteries. And when people go to visit, then hopefully that makes them stop and think when they're looking at particular graves about who that person might have been when they were alive and what they might've been doing in their lives. That and certain things that parallel our modern lives, too. So I like having that comparison.
So today we brought for you guys, and I was so excited when you reached out about this. So the reason we get to be on your show today is because you had reached out about a post I had made a while back that had a crow in the cemetery, and I had quoted the movie The Crow about crows leading souls to heaven or something. I don't even remember the exact, I should know the exact quote, I've seen that movie a million times, but that's how we got here today.
So we did some more digging into death omens, and this was actually good timing for us, because we had talked about doing something similar on our own podcast with this for October, because we do get a little spookier in October than we do the rest of the year.
But I went into digging up some omens and some taboos that are somewhat connected to cemeteries, more often connected to death itself. But death means different things around the world. Every culture has its own connection with death, and some cultures actually celebrate it, others fear it.
Like, it's interesting when you start to dig into death and burial rites and those kinds of traditions, how different cultures treat death. And then the omens that have come about, which a lot of them, or at least the ones that we looked at for today with you guys, we were able to connect to, in a lot of cases, witchcraft and witches, and that's how certain stories have happened. And then you end up with the big witch trials, especially the further back in history you go.
But so we thought we'd start out by defining an omen. I actually went and looked up the actual definition of omen and the actual definition of taboo. So an omen is an event regarded as a portent of good or evil, and it has prophetic significance. So that's an omen.
And then a taboo is a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing. Like I said, the one that had interested you was the one about crows, and crows and ravens together, in different cultures, they almost cross over as far as what they signify, but crows often in a lot of cultures can mean illness or death is coming if you spot so many of them together, they're in a certain configuration or whatever, but there are other cultures that think of crows as guiding souls to heaven, like the souls can, or whatever heavenly body. And with ravens specifically, so there's Norse tradition that ravens delivered messages to Odin between the dead and the living. So they And Odin was their biggest god out of all their gods, and so ravens had that significance, but you see it in other things, but the other reason crows and ravens and even vultures get a bad rap, especially when you see them in cemeteries, is because they are scavengers, that's how they eat, so they're attracted to any place where there's going to be dead bodies, because that's going to feed them, and I think a lot of their like scariness of people attached to it is because you've seen them on battlefields after in the past, especially you have all the dead from the battles and those birds come almost immediately and start helping themselves. And cemeteries, I'm sure they can smell things that, even though the bodies are generally buried or in the crypts or whatever, they can still smell death. So they tend to hang out in those places. So they get a bad rap, I think. Unfortunately.
[00:13:53] Dianne Hartshorn: And do you think through literature and the gothic romance era that, with our boy Edgar, that he that sort of just warped maybe more of the I don't want to say maybe more the spiritual connection with the crow and then that crow became that omen, that spooky creature that is bad and instead of good. And because in some of the Native American stuff, a crow is not looked upon as evil or foreboding.
[00:14:24] Jennie Johnson: Yeah. Especially Native American cultures, crows are generally a kind of a revered animal. It's more of a, from like an English and Irish.
So this day and age with people having so much access to the internet and being able to look things up, I think this is where cultures cross sometimes. You get omens that seem really scary or significant from one culture that crosses over to another culture. And I think people will look at that and go, "Oh, that's really interesting." So that's what started all this was the crows.
[00:14:56] Dianne Hartshorn: Then you get our precious little black cats in there as well, too, as being omens. And Jennie and I personally know that black cats are freaking awesome. And I think the other thing with death omens and that is learning and respecting and appreciating different cultures and their death and burial practices, because Jennie mentioned here, the Navajos and the Native Americans, they would have their own very specific rituals involved with, death and that. And then since, unfortunately, that some of their practices may have been looked upon as being pagan or primitive, it wasn't really respected by the people who came to settle this land and actually they would take the body and bury it away from living areas. And in a way we followed that, where cemeteries started moving from the churchyard out away from the community. Next, I think a lot of that had to do with, that was valuable land.
And I think a lot of it is when we learned a lot through, like, archaeology and all that with burial practices, but then I think when people do that, they have taken away the sacredness when they discover things and then they don't quite understand maybe what was left there that may be looked at as being very primitive, where from the Native American's perspective, it might've been something very, very sacred at now lost because we didn't understand it.
[00:16:41] Sarah Jack: Such a devastating point because you mentioned, you know, the lens of the settler, the European settlers, here was we don't understand their culture and their practices, so it's witchcraft or it's evil. Their practices were very sacred to them. It's so unfortunate when cultures don't recognize what is sacred to other cultures just because of fear.
[00:17:05] Jennie Johnson: And you have to think, too, so going back like to the Navajos specifically, they actually, and I think it's still true today for, especially for those who've really been able to go back to practicing their own traditions again. They have a fear of death, because they, and it's more, it has to do with like your spirit or your soul getting trapped here in, on earth, rather than moving on to where it's supposed, wherever it's supposed to go afterwards.
And so a lot of their burial practices have to do with making sure that soul gets contained or gets sent into the right place, because you don't want that, because if the soul gets trapped, it's not going to be the kind, loving, respectful person that it was in life. It becomes something very twisted and dark.
And so you don't want that trapped soul here. So they, one of the things they do that I know the European settlers found very odd and weird, when somebody died, if they died inside their hogan, which is their traditional sort of house, if they died with inside the hogan, they would actually burn the hogans afterwards. Nobody else was allowed to move into them or live in them, because again, you could be trapped in there with an angry spirit that didn't get to move on to where it was supposed to go. So that's one of those kind of practices. And there were other tribes that did that.
The Apache did that, as well. If you had somebody who died inside of a place, you got rid of the place, you didn't keep it, you didn't move on and use it again for somebody else, which again, from the European standpoint, when they came, that just was like mind blowing to those people because you would inherit things, and you would move on, and you would move into those places, but that's not how that those cultures thought of that. It became very sacred to help that spirit not be trapped and to move on and go where it was supposed to go, so I find that interesting.
But at the same time, there's other cultures. So there are the Malagasy peoples, they are from Madagascar. The Malagasy is like the big term for all these tribes that are in the Madagascar region, and they have African and Asian heritage mixed together. That's what the Malagasy are, because of where they're located, but they have a practice called, and I'm hoping I don't butcher this too much, because it's a kind of a tricky word, but it's Famadihana and it's, which translates roughly into the turning of the bones.
Every five to seven years, they have this practice, where they open up their tombs or their vaults, and they actually remove their deceased ancestors, they redress them in fresh burial garbs, and they have them out, and they eat and drink and dance and have this whole ceremony, because they're honoring their ancestors, and then they put them back inside their tomb, but they put them upside down in their fresh garbs. They put them back upside down, so like on their heads quite literally, because it closes the cycle of life and death when they do that, and then they close it all up for another five to seven years, and then they'll do it all over again.
But they have a very strong belief that they're the deceased ancestors are that connection, those physical bodies are sort of their connection between the earthly realm and the spiritual realm. And they have a lot of practices that border on Christianity and other practices, because they took up with some Christianity. So they have certain beliefs that they follow a very Christian thing. So they do believe in like God and stuff, but then some other practices can go beyond that. And so this is one of those things where I know people from other cultures would be like, "why are you dancing with your dead relatives?" But it's because they're intervening on their behalf. Those dead relatives are intervening with God on the behalf of the living, and so they have a very close connection with death, and they don't view it quite so fearfully or negatively as like other cultures do.
So it's similar to what they do, you know, for Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead celebrations that they have in parts of Mexico and parts of South America where they're honoring their ancestors and the love and the life that they had. It's that same sort of celebration. So again, depending on where you're at in the world, the connections to death are very different. But I think it's really cool.
[00:21:28] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah, because what was, you know, Halloween, became All Souls Day. All Saints Day, we have lost, I think we've lost a lot of that, because I believe All Saints Day and All Souls Day, or I may be saying it backwards is more of a Catholic ritual belief. So when trying to get away from that, then they made that stuff evil, and sort of, I don't wanna say they warped Halloween because, and then I think here in the States, especially with death and mourning, we want to forget it and get over it so, so quickly 'cause and not even put out there that we are in mourning or this you know, whatever around that. Because I have a friend who's, who grew up in the Philippines, and when her mother died, they don't bury in big, elaborate, expensive caskets and that, and her mom was placed in a shroud into a crypt. I mean, she has since moved her mom to another cemetery and that could be part of the reason, but what was interesting was when she was flying back home, and I think, and I didn't know how this came about or how she got her or anything, um, she had mentioned to the stewardess or somebody, it could even have been before that she was, you know, returning home after her mom's death, and somehow she ended up being given a black pin that she could pin to her blouse.
So basically it was like you know, going back into the Victorian age of how it was almost an elaborate display of mourning. I don't want to say they turned it into a trend, but you know, it was just like everybody, it was very, I don't know, I don't want to say romantic, but they sometimes took things to the extreme, where I mean, my friend was able to wear that pin home, and they signified that she was in mourning,, and I think she was supposed to wear it for 40 days and she signified that she was in mourning so that way she didn't, people honored that and I think with some of these omens and that they have been warped because either we don't understand them, or we don't, we try to push death so far away that we forget it's basically, unfortunately, an everyday part of life.
[00:23:57] Jennie Johnson: Yeah, there's, especially in Western cultures like ours, death is more feared than it is revered. And that's a little scary to people. In creating some of these omens, when it relates to things that people see, to the animals that are around, to all of those things they, I think it tries to help people maybe process death a little bit differently and either to use it as a warning to be like, "hey, stay away from the cemetery, stay away from sick people, stay at whatever, because you're going to die, this could be bad."
And then again, a lot of things go back to our fear of witches and witchcraft, especially European cultures, because in Europe, witches were horrible for centuries. Like we were after them for forever. And so there's all these things that relate back. And now I think in a more modern age, I think a lot of people look at these things, and they laugh it off, and it's not as scary or upsetting anymore, but for a long time, that was the warning of if you see this, if you see the crows and the ravens hanging out in the cemetery, you're going to be the next one to die type thing. And there's a lot of those kinds of omens, especially related to animals, which I find interesting. The birds, owls are another one that a lot of cultures are afraid of. It's interesting because with owls, a lot of the fear around those for the omens comes from a lot of South American cultures. If you hear it, if you're hearing the owls hoot, that could mean death within your household immediately. Like if an owl comes and sits on your rooftop and starts hooting, that's an omen of death, like, headed in your direction, which I find so fascinating, because I love when the owls come and hoot.
But also, you know, black cats, if they cross your path, you're supposed to die.
And well, I would be dead so many times over at this point, because I've had black cats forever in my house. And, uh, that omen has never come true for me, so.
[00:25:59] Dianne Hartshorn: No, they're the best cats. I'm sorry.
[00:26:02] Sarah Jack: One of the things that popped into my mind is how the finality of death is, like, immediate for a lot of the Western culture here in America, and we're, like, trying to shut the door and move on, mourn privately. We're all still trying to figure out the stages of grief and where we're at, you know. We don't have these practices that walk us through those, and then what I'm learning from you is that a lot of these cultures, it's just like a new phase of the relationship, and they continue their connection to them, even in death. They're not shutting that door.
[00:26:36] Jennie Johnson: There's a lot of the cultures, life and death are very intricately connected, and most cultures have some sort of a belief in some kind of afterlife. And it's, and even Christianity, the goal is when you die, you're going to go to heaven or you'll go to hell or where there's somewhere you're going to go and continue on, but a lot of cultures have that sort of afterlife belief or a reincarnation belief is another one that they have. So even if your physical body is no longer being useful, you still have a soul or spirit that's going to go somewhere. And I think for most cultures, the beliefs that they built around that was to help people through the grieving process and not to shut it out and say, "yes, you can be sad that physically this person no longer sits next to you at the dinner table, but we know they've continued on into this other world, and they're doing the things in this other world that they did in life."
You go back to the ancient Egyptian cultures and the way they buried their dead with all the grave goods and things they were going to need to continue living their life in the afterworld. They gave them their food and their dishes and their clothing and all those things in the thought that you're going to need it in the next life, and so I do think we as Western society became more fearful of death and a lot of that goes back to certain things, too, like all the different plagues that ran through Europe and the way people died horrible, tragic deaths. The black plague was a nasty disease and it was very scary to watch people die. And it would happen so fast. Somebody would get sick and be gone within a day or two, and it was very terrifying to watch people die like that. And so I think a lot of our traditions in Western culture then stem from things like that. Like we've become fearful.
And then there came a time where all of a sudden we had to be very stoic and serious about death. And even still, as you mentioned, people are uncomfortable with the idea of death. And when somebody dies for somebody else, like people don't necessarily know what to say, feel like they should say something or what to do, because there's not necessarily something you can say or do to make somebody feel better about a loss of a loved one. There's not always words there, or there's very empty words. So then people get uncomfortable, then they don't want to be around the person who's just lost somebody because they don't know how to act or what to say. And then the person who's actively grieving then goes into this, "oh, I have to just put it behind me, and I have to move on, because nobody's going to understand this."
And again, by creating omens or taboos about death, then in our brains, it gets stuck there that this is, this is wrong and we can't think like this. And we have to just move on, even though we know logically grief can last a very long time. It can take years to get over losing somebody, and there shouldn't be a time limit for how long somebody grieves. You should just be allowed to be sad and still live your life.
But if you can make a connection with your deceased loved ones in some way, I think that's very helpful to a lot of people. And like you said, there's a lot of cultures, they, death and life are interconnected and you have to have one to have the other.
So yeah, I was having fun researching some of the other ones. So some of the other omens that we came about that have to do with animals, I thought this one was interesting cause I'd never heard of it, but white horses, especially in Europe, this was especially European, but if two white horses are pulling a hearse, hearses when horses still used to pull hearses, a death will occur in the town within a month. Also, if you saw a white horse at night, that could be an omen of death coming for you.
[00:30:24] Dianne Hartshorn: I wonder if it's from revelations, because it talks about the white horse.
[00:30:30] Jennie Johnson: Oh, it could be. That's true.
Snakes are another one that people have a lot of weirdness around when it comes to, because snakes creep people out anyway.
[00:30:40] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah, they don't have to have omens, they're just creepy.
[00:30:42] Jennie Johnson: They're just creepy, but a lot of that relates back biblically, though, since Lucifer is said to present himself as a snake, and then, of course, that got tight, so then snakes can bring death and sickness and other curses, and they can be used by witches to do their bidding and be horrible and nasty, so snakes are another one, and bats were the other. Bats I thought were interesting, and of course there's the association with bats because of vampires and Bram Stoker himself is the One who really was like, our vampires turn into bats. That's how they fly around and get around without being noticed. But they've been in other cultures where vampires aren't necessarily a part of their culture. Bats are still considered to be bad luck, especially if you see them flying around in the daylight. Because they're nocturnal creatures. So if you're seeing them during the day, that, oftentimes it means somebody's going to die right away in those kinds of cultures. It's more likely the bat has rabies at this point, or some other illness that bats can get.
[00:31:46] Sarah Jack: Did you, in your research, did you see any ways that people believe that they can get out of a bad omen?
[00:31:54] Jennie Johnson: You know what? It's weird, because I was trying to look that up, and I wasn't finding a lot on that. There are a few cultures that do have you can cast a counterspell and things like that, or you go visit your shaman or your witch doctor, and they can be the ones to cure you of that omen.
In those cases, you have to have some form of payment, though, oftentimes, or something for trade, again, depending on the culture and where you're at. But that's, those were the only ways I was coming up with that could counteract these bad omens. Otherwise, most of them are like, yep, this is going to happen, so prepare yourself. Be prepared. You're dying, or somebody is dying, and I'm sure a lot of that also stems back, you could have seen a bat flying around during the day 300 years ago. And somebody probably died within that week, because people just died more often and at younger ages, because healthcare wasn't as good, so they started making those connections like, "oh my gosh, I saw a bat on Monday and now my grandma's dead on Tuesday, because that bat was flying around in the daytime." But yes, there are a few cultures where there are ways to fix it, but you usually have to have some form of payment or something to get that fixed.
[00:33:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I was really curious about that, because we've talked about countermagic before and protective magic, how people use amulets and rituals or put things around the house to ward off this and that. But I guess it depends on how you interpret the origin of an omen. I was thinking if an omen is a sign from the gods or God, then you probably can't do a whole lot to counteract God's will through a prayer or something, but maybe for in certain cultures, where you sacrifice to appease a God, maybe that's a way to get out of an omen.
[00:33:50] Jennie Johnson: And that does come up in a few of them. The other thing that you'll find more often is what you've mentioned is protective charms. And so there's a lot of charms that people have come up with over the centuries, things to wear, foods to eat, herbs and stuff that you put around your home or across your threshold, using salt is a big one that goes back to a lot of things. Salt protects you from witches and bad spirits and demons. And salt is highly functional for that kind of stuff, in addition to making your food taste better. So there's a lot more of the protective type of charms to prevent things, bad things from happening if you happen to come across one of these animals or whatever.
But yeah, it's more of the protective thing rather than the once it's happened. Like you said, if it's the god's will, whether it's the Christian God or any other god, then that's, you just have to prepare yourself and be ready to do what, whatever that god was wanting at that point. They make themselves well known for that.
[00:34:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we were reading about omens and portents in colonial New England. In Puritan society, everything basically was a sign of God's favor or displeasure, and if God was angry with you, you're supposed to take your medicine, and, uh, correct whatever you were doing.
[00:35:17] Jennie Johnson: And with the Puritan belief in predestination, where God has already decided whether you're going to heaven or hell, you don't know that, God knows that. But yeah, it made it very hard to break away sometimes from the idea of certain things. If you were going to go to hell anyway, why be good? Or, if whatever, but I do find that belief really strong and they did, everything was assigned from God in the Puritan ages.
And that, during all their various witch trials, when they, when the accused were being accused, a lot of them had, part of that accusation was whatever familiar that they had. And a lot of times it was either some sort of a bird, a cat, rats were another one I think you would quite often see. So then, those just over time, and even once those beliefs got put aside and we got more scientific about stuff, those types of stories stuck with us as humans. And we, and then you have like our Victorian authors, like Edgar Allan Poe, who used all of those in their stories and in their writings. And so again, in our psyche, that all now sits in our brains as being very scary and dark and or ritualistic, depending on, again, what it is. And we see a lot of that.
[00:36:37] Dianne Hartshorn: Especially had those strong beliefs, and they had the the control of church, they, even if it didn't make any sense whatsoever, people couldn't question it, because if they questioned it, then they probably would be accused of being a witch because they questioned it. So it just was easier to perpetuate the story that continues. So yeah, it's easier sometimes just to go along and not say anything than try to make real sense out of some of these omens.
[00:37:10] Jennie Johnson: We were talking about protection and stuff, and this kind of goes back to some cemeteries. So something some people would do in cemeteries, and even before cemeteries became cemeteries as we think of them now, trees held a big belief for, certain trees held certain types of beliefs of protection, especially. And so graves were put under certain trees or near certain trees or trees were planted on top of graves for the very reason of protecting against all these other omens that are out there.
Yew trees are a big one, willows, the silver birch, all of those trees have a lot of important symbolism in protecting against the evils of death or evil spirits. Yew trees are specifically like a symbol of immortality. And for a long time in European customs, a lot of times they would carry yew branches on Palm Sunday to church instead of having, like now we use palms, but a lot of times they would use yew branches.
Or they would carry them during a funeral too. It was part of the funeral ritual. They would have them. In Ireland, yew was the coffin of the vine, wine barrels were often made of yew because it imbibed the wine with good juju, it was good. I don't know if it actually made the wine taste better or not, but it apparently helped protect the wine from bad things. And so they used yew for that.
The willow tree, which is one of my favorite trees, it's gone back and forth being a good tree and a bad tree. It depends on the season, a lot of times the Victorians, actually slightly before the Victorians, they started using yew trees as a symbol of mourning, and you will see them a lot on graves and headstones, because they are sad and they're weeping and the weeping willow is what we get from that.
But it can also be like, there's other traditions, and if you've ever read any of the Lord of the Rings books, the trees have a lot of issues in there, but the Willow, Old Man Willow in the first Lord of the Rings, in the Fellowship, he's quite sinister and evil and dark and has a dark spirit within his tree, so willows, like I said, they've over time have gone back and forth from being a good tree and a not so good tree, but they are very often associated with death, and you will find them a lot in cemeteries or burials will have been put beneath them.
And then the other one I really thought was fun was the silver birch tree, which for a lot of, if you're Wiccan, a lot of them look at that as the Goddess Tree or the Lady of the Woods. And it's associated with light and new beginnings, love, and fertility, so it has a very good symbol. It's a tree that can protect against evil spirits. So you'll find that one sometimes near graves, because it's protecting the deceased from the evil spirits who might come to, to, claim those bodies. And it's a much happier tree than the willow tree. And I didn't find any evil connotations connected with the silver birch tree, other than they used to like to use birch branches for like whipping your children and stuff. Or they would whip, if whipping became your punishment in town for something, because they believed that using the birch branch would help drive out the evil that was making you be naughty.
[00:40:30] Sarah Jack: Wow.
[00:40:30] Jennie Johnson: I thought was interesting. I do have some stuff about insects. I always think it's interesting, because I know a lot of people will see like butterflies or dragonflies as a good omen, you know, when somebody's died, and then you see it land on their headstone. Or even if you're out somewhere and you see one and somebody has recently passed, a lot of times we will associate those particular insects with like the soul of the person coming back in that.
But butterflies, again, this is culture to culture, so different. Some cultures, butterflies, especially if they're black or they have a lot of black in their wings, represent trapped souls that have been trapped within the butterfly, which is not necessarily a good thing to them.
But then other cultures look at it, because of the way a butterfly transitions into a butterfly and their cycle of life with the cocoon and going from the caterpillar all the way up to the butterfly. A lot of other cultures use that as a representation of death. The same way our life was sort of our caterpillar phase and then death becomes your butterfly phase, and your soul is free and it can fly away to heaven or wherever as a butterfly. And I thought that was a very beautiful, more poetic way of looking at it.
[00:41:48] Dianne Hartshorn: Cause the omens have all been taken as something as being evil for whatever reason, I'm sure it had its purpose at the time for whoever came out with what the omens signified. But what if we took those, all these evil omens, turn them into something positive, like the butterfly? I could see in a way that it was black and that but when I have seen butterflies at the cemetery, it's a sign from the person that has passed. So it'd be interesting to change, to flip the omens into something, but then they wouldn't be omens anymore.
[00:42:24] Jennie Johnson: Moths kind of have the same thing. It's funny, cause moths freak a lot of people out more so than butterflies, even though they're related. But they're seen as rebirth, resurrection, changing. And because moths are drawn to light, like actual moths are drawn to actual light, there's a lot of associations where the moth is leading a soul from darkness into light. So the soul, they're like saying, "okay, follow me. Don't get away from the light. Follow me into the light."
Unless you're in Latin America, and then they're bad, because moths come out only at night type thing. So then they're a bad omen down there, but a lot of other cultures look at moths as a more positive thing. And, it's, again, the transformation from one form to another when you die. And so I kind of like the whole leading it, leading your soul into the light and it's that guide so you don't get lost along the way.
When I was doing our research for this, things are passed down word of mouth, grandparent to grandchild. And a lot of times, because a lot of cultures do revere their elders, like their elder elders, they're the ones that had the wisdom. So these, whether they're omens or whether they're signs of protection or whether they're a good sign, like they help it. It's the older generations that held that wisdom and made sure that it got passed on to the next generation. Their hope was that somebody within that generation would continue on with those beliefs and pass them down again. And of course they change over time, too.
[00:43:49] Josh Hutchinson: I was thinking about how there are good omens and signs that people embrace, things like rainbows. I was thinking, and this might blur the line between what's an omen and what's good luck, what's a lucky break, because finding a penny might be interpreted as good luck, or finding a four leaf clover, but, or it could be a sign that, you found this four leaf clover, is that a sign of something? I don't know, but I think we still have a lot of those in our society today.
[00:44:29] Jennie Johnson: Oh, for sure. Yeah, and like finding the penny, finding it face up is better luck than finding it tails up, that type of thing. When it comes to coins, there's actually a lot of coins that get left on graves. Most of the time it has to do with the military significance. Each one of those coins has a significance, like if it's a penny, you're just saying thank you for your service. If it's a nickel, you knew the person, and the higher up you go, if it's a quarter, that means you served with them during combat type things. So they have those representations, and so there are a lot of times, especially in military graves, you'll find those coins and it's a sign of respect to leave them.
So don't steal the coins off the graves, because then that becomes a bad luck sign if you take the coins away from the graves. Same thing with rocks. Rocks are more of a Jewish tradition. Leaving a rock on a grave symbolizes you were there to visit them. But I have seen plenty of rocks on graves that are not Jewish, because I think a lot of people like that. It's a comforting thing for them to say, "I was here, and I want you to know I was here." Whoever the deceased is, it's your way of saying, "I was here." So again, not removing the rocks that got left on graves. I know it bothers some people, but leave them, leave them.
[00:45:44] Dianne Hartshorn: It's a sign of respect. When you know what it is, and you've like laid the coins on the military headstones, or, rocks placed, it's just something, I keep using the word sacred, because for me, a cemetery is sacred, and that's why we don't do paranormal stuff.
[00:46:04] Josh Hutchinson: I wanted to point out that we've been back to Salem and at the memorials there, people leave coins, flowers, of course, rocks, crystals, seashells are really popular. Because we don't know where most of those people are buried. So because they weren't allowed in the cemeteries. So people leave these tributes behind.
[00:46:32] Jennie Johnson: We had a guest on who was telling us about the cemeteries in Galveston, and there's one particular grave, the woman who's buried there, she was murdered on Mardi Gras, during a Mardi Gras celebration, and it's become the tradition after their Mardi Gras parade, a lot of people will go visit her grave, and they leave all their beads, so her headstone is covered in the beads that people have left over the years, and Kathleen was, our guest, was saying the only time they remove them at this point is if they break, like the actual beads break or whatever, they'll clean up the broken beads, but they pretty much leave all the other ones that get wrapped around her headstone there because it became, and this happened back in the 1880s, but it's been a tradition since then to visit that grave and leave all those beads for her, which I think is really special. Yeah. And she doesn't get forgotten this way.
She had come to America from England and married a not so great guy. And she was actually granted a divorce, because the judge was like, yeah, you shouldn't be married to him. He's horrible. And she actually ended up getting custody of his two daughters that were not even hers biologically. And unfortunately his jealousy got the best of him, and he was the one who murdered her later on. But her story could have been one of those that kind of got lost and forgotten, but because of when it happened and where her grave is located, nobody, people go in and they respect it, and they visit her and they say, "hey, we're still thinking about you for 150 years later. We haven't forgotten her."
So that is one of the good things about cemeteries is you will see a lot of stuff on and around graves, because people are trying to remember. There, if the Central City cemeteries here in Colorado, those were, the majority of them were mining families or whatever, and there's a lot of children's graves, and there's a lot of people who still, they may not have any actual connection to them, they may not be descendants or whatever, but I will see, especially on the children's graves, people will still leave a lot of toys and other little knickknacks for the kids, because they're just so sad about the idea of losing a child, and so those graves, if you're ever up there wandering around, you'll see a lot of little stuffed animals and toy trucks and things that have been left by people who have zero connection to the families there, but they just are touched by the fact that it's a child's grave and they want to honor that child's short little life, however long it was, which I always find very sweet.
[00:48:50] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

[00:49:01] Mary Bingham: Imagine someone living in colonial times who learned differently and simply could not follow the status quo. Imagine the life of Jacob Goodall, Giles Corey's healthy, robust servant who's only downfall was that he was considered to be simple-minded. Instead of exercising patience with Jacob, one fateful day, Giles beat him with the thick end of a stick, striking him harshly about 100 times. A shocked Elijah Kibbe, who witnessed the event, ran to Giles and told him to stop.
Not only that, but Giles' son in law, John Parker, struck Jacob with the side of a bed. Soon after, on June 28th, 1676, Jacob Goodall, being bruised and swollen all over, succumbed to his injuries. Giles Corey was not charged with murder, because Jacob did not die right after the initial beatings. The only punishment Giles received was to pay a fine and reimburse the witnesses. What a slap in the face for Jacob, to say the least. John Parker received no discipline by the court for his atrocious actions towards Jacob. Though he may have learned differently or may have other mental health issues, Jacob did not deserve to die such a cruel death. No one does. Rest in peace, Jacob Goodall.
Thank you.

[00:50:39] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:50:41] Josh Hutchinson: Now, here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[00:50:51] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for following along on our weekly news. How's your advocating going? Have you found your platform to share about the modern day witch hunts and sorcery accusation violence crisis happening today in your world? You can start being an advocate by sharing witch attack victim news articles, research, or social media posts. Share your favorite international advocate episode with your circle of influence today. Go back and listen to any of our informative international advocate episodes and then write a post on your social media in your own words about what can be done to help end witch hunts. Keep getting more comfortable with the subject by sharing it and talking about it.
Congratulations to writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling of Light the Match Productions on the new play production Prick. Prick, inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign, will now be premiering in London this January. This creative play tells the story of folks who were witch trial victims in Scotland. Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. Give them a shout out on social media and help spread the word about this exciting news. If you missed it, go back and listen to our conversation with the creators of Prick on episode 47, "Prick, A Play of the Scottish Witch Trials." Congratulations, friends.
Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. Learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.

[00:52:40] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:52:42] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:52:47] Sarah Jack: Join us all spooky season.
[00:52:50] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and drop us a review.
[00:52:55] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:52:58] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell all your friends and family and everybody else you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[00:53:06] Sarah Jack: Support our effort to end witch hunts, visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:53:11] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today, a beautiful tomorrow, and a happy Halloween.

September 28, 2023

A Year of Talking Witch Hunts

Mrs. Krieger, Vermont’s Only Witch, The Looking Glass

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Show Notes

Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, Anniversary Special. This episode was recorded live and unscripted at the Podcast Movement Conference in Denver, CO. With the anniversary of their first episode fast approaching, cohosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack take this rare opportunity to discuss their favorite things and reflect upon the past year and the experience of producing a podcast. This is the story of how Thou Shalt Not Suffer became what it is after in 12 months.

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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, Sarah Jack.
[00:00:29] Sarah Jack: I'm good.
[00:00:30] Josh Hutchinson: We're actually together for the first time recording in person with each other. We're at Podcast Movement in Denver, and we're having a great time, aren't we?
[00:00:40] Sarah Jack: We are.
[00:00:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Learning a lot.
[00:00:43] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: So far. Off to a good start. In a change of pace, I'm going to start by getting to know Sarah a little better.
[00:00:54] Sarah Jack: Oh, dear.
[00:00:54] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, Sarah. What's your favorite movie?
[00:00:58] Sarah Jack: Jaws.
[00:00:59] Josh Hutchinson: Jaws? Why is that?
[00:01:00] Sarah Jack: Jaws.
[00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: Why?
[00:01:01] Sarah Jack: I love anything with a chase and an attack. And the book.
[00:01:06] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, and you love the book also.
[00:01:09] Sarah Jack: I did. Yeah.
[00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Okay.
[00:01:12] Sarah Jack: The characters.
[00:01:13] Josh Hutchinson: Characters. Yeah.
[00:01:16] Sarah Jack: I've watched it hundreds of times.
[00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: I love the sheriff guy. What's his name? Brody?
Yeah.
Yeah, Brody. He's pretty cool. And the Richard Dreyfuss guy.
[00:01:30] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's, as many times as I've seen it, I can't think of the name.
[00:01:35] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. That other guy.
[00:01:37] Sarah Jack: This is a very different feel than the normal.
[00:01:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, doing a podcast together in person. We're recording in a booth with a glass wall and people are walking by and we're just not used to the distractions. I know I'm not, but
[00:01:54] Sarah Jack: What's your favorite movie, Josh?
[00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, my favorite movie is Dumb and Dumber and that's just because it's hilarious. And it stands the test of time. It's just a classic. Came out when I was in high school, so it was one of those movies that I went to attend without my parents that was a little bit raunchy at times but just mostly the slapstick humor, and that really is something I'm a fan of, I'd say.
How about a TV show?
[00:02:33] Sarah Jack: The Walking Dead.
[00:02:35] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah?
[00:02:36] Sarah Jack: Or any of its spinoffs.
[00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: Many spinoffs of that show now.
[00:02:41] Sarah Jack: There's even a new one starting next month. Can't wait.
[00:02:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, what's that new one?
[00:02:46] Sarah Jack: It's got Daryl. I don't remember what it's called, but I just finished watching the first season of Dead City, which was a spinoff on two of the characters.
[00:02:54] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, Dead City. Okay.
[00:02:56] Sarah Jack: It was great.
[00:02:58] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
[00:02:58] Sarah Jack: One of my favorite zombie situations of the whole series was in this season.
[00:03:05] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. What attracts you to the Walking Dead universe?
[00:03:10] Sarah Jack: The survival and relationships and making choices and the survival.
[00:03:19] Josh Hutchinson: Okay, great. My favorite TV show is Psych. And if you're not familiar with it, it's a detective comedy about a man posing as a psychic and starting a psychic detective agency with his best friend, who's a pharmaceutical sales representative, and it's just a lot of comic hijinks, and, I'm about the same age as the lead actors in that, so they were, I was at the same stage of life when the show aired, and I really saw myself in Sean, the lead character.
[00:04:00] Sarah Jack: That's great. Today we're learning how to do this on the spot, in person, but what have we learned this past year about podcasting?
[00:04:11] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, we have learned so much, it's been a full year. This is the end of that, and we're contemplating what we've learned and how far we've come since then. So much has blown my mind about the experience. It's, we do the full production ourselves. So end to end, getting a podcast made every week is challenging and doing all the edits and stuff, but it's been opportunity for growth, getting new skills, new technical skills, and just the people that we've met. Been amazing.
[00:04:56] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Yeah. There's the pace has been fast, putting one out every week, but that those deadlines keep us moving even when we weren't exactly sure, throwing ourselves out there and trying the next thing.
[00:05:12] Josh Hutchinson: And we have tried different things. We do usually an interview, but we've also done our own 101 episodes. And we've interviewed such a variety of guests, the academics, the artists, the advocates, it's been quite an array. And just wonderful meeting people from all these different walks of life.
[00:05:40] Sarah Jack: It has been amazing. And so we've got that learning curve going on, while at the same time, we're starting to learn more about witch hunts past, witch hunts present.
[00:05:53] Josh Hutchinson: The witch hunts present, that I would say has been the most impactful lesson of this whole thing for us. It prompted us to start a nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. We learned the reality, the sad reality that many hundreds, if not thousands of people are being tortured, banished, and or killed each year in occurring in at least 60 nations that there've been reports from. And it's just so prolific and widespread, when we learned about that, it just touched our hearts right away and we knew we wanted to amplify the message of those advocates who are doing the great work in these various countries struggling with this problem.
[00:06:50] Sarah Jack: Yeah, we, I've looked at the work that we were doing as before educational, telling you the information, telling you what's happening, but there's another part of that and that is finding out what needs to be done. So we hope that you learn what's happening, but also hear what you need to be doing to help stop it.
[00:07:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And our path to where we are now, that's been so enlightening and revelatory. We started off with that interview of Damon Leff about South African witch hunts. And then we had Leo Igwe talk to us about Nigeria, and those two interviews brought us along really far, but what we've done since then is maintain relationships with those guests, and we've had the opportunity to meet Leo in person and help him with a speaking tour in New England this past May. Just that relationship with him leads to continued growing, and now our colleague, Mary Bingham, has reached out to advocates worldwide, and we're meeting so many people from so many countries that, continuing us on this path to wherever we're going, trying to eliminate this violence.
[00:08:29] Sarah Jack: The witch attacks are violent, and they're in more communities than you would imagine, and learning from the history, looking at the research from academics and those who've been out in the field where these attacks are happening, looking at all of it is really important to understanding the bigger picture. Sometimes we hear that people don't quite understand those historic witch hunts, and if we don't understand what was happening then and we don't understand what's happening now, we're not going to find solutions.
[00:09:03] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. That's why we got into the podcast, I think, in the first place, was to educate people primarily about historic witch hunts in Connecticut and elsewhere. We've launched the podcast with that education in mind because when we started the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, we were just getting weird looks from people anytime we mentioned that Connecticut had witch trials in the first place. People just weren't aware of that, and we thought we'll use every form of media that we can, and podcasting just seemed a natural outgrowth of that.
And I'd say that's why we got involved was just to educate, but what we're learning is there are so many connections between the past witch trials and the modern witchcraft persecutions that learning about one helps you learn about the other, because if you can understand what happened in, say, 1692 in Salem, you can understand what's happening in 2023 in any of these nations that are affected by this and vice versa, if you understand what's going on right now, you understand the same suffering that happened before. So I think continuing to educate about both of those aspects is what lies ahead of us in the future. Yeah.
[00:10:46] Sarah Jack: One of the things that I didn't expect when I started was how much Research I was going to be doing to be prepared for our episodes, for the guests that were coming, and that we're continually being informed by our preparation. Were you surprised at how much preparation we do for each episode?
[00:11:06] Josh Hutchinson: I was, yeah. The research is constant, continuous, every day, seven days of the week. Research It basically fills in every hour that we're not doing the production tasks, we're doing the research tasks. So these are full days and doing a 101, especially, it's really takes nearly a week to do the, just the research and write out what we're going to talk about and how we're going to present it.
So yeah, the research. It's, it's been so beneficial, that's probably what surprised me more is just the amount, the number of different topics that we're reading about. Because we can be reading in the same week, as we were recently. We're reading a novel, we're reading a screenplay, we're reading research and learning about witch hunts in India.
At the same time, we're learning about witch hunts in Scotland. And we're learning about witch hunting at Salem. Just that variety of what we're learning has been, I just, I adore it, really. I like the research, because I'm that history nerd. And I'm just so curious about the current situation and what's going on and how do we solve that? So constantly reading is a great benefit.
[00:12:47] Sarah Jack: One of the things that I love the most is as I'm reading and thinking about talking to our guests, I know that I'm going to get to have some questions clarified. Even though the podcast episode is literally a set of questions and conversation that comes from that, I know that I don't have to read something, look at something that I'm reading and wonder. If I need something answered, I'm going to get a moment to ask the question, even if it's not part of the script. So I've really loved that direct access to the people who've created the information. And the other thing that has come out of the variety of the topics is we, when we hear from our listeners, and we do, which we love it, we hear all sorts of different ways the show's impacting them. Sometimes they share research that they've done to update us on something. Sometimes they ask questions. A lot of the times it's just, "Hey, we're so glad you're doing this." And one of the, one of the things that came out of our week with Leo Igwe this May, if you listen to his episode that we did directly after that, he talked about that he hopes that next time he comes through the United States, there's more, "hey, what can I do to help?" and less "you're kidding me. I had no idea." And I really feel like people are understanding that they need to inform themselves more on the modern crisis, and there's a lot of information out there to do so. I'm feeling really hopeful about that goal.
[00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. I'm really excited about the advocates that we're meeting and getting more of them on the podcast is something I look forward to, but you also made a good point about that direct access to ask questions. It's quite a privilege to be able to speak with these esteemed professors and other guests who've written about the witch trials. Many of our guests are people whose books I've been reading for years. And so it's been really something to now be talking with them in, I say in person, but it's, we do our recording remotely because Sarah and I are in different states and our guests are all around the world. But having that access you talk about to directly to the brains that have all the information, whatever questions arise in our research, we're able just to ask the experts.
And so that's really something.
[00:15:42] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's really great and another thing that's exceptional that has come out of this is our community is there and has grown. When we've reached out to our previous guests, all, they've all been so willing to answer other questions or help with new ideas. Yeah, I guess I'd like to thank our guests directly, each of you, because so many of you have communicated with us on the side afterwards. We're starting to bring back some of our guests. That's really exciting, but that's a huge component, the ongo the conversation is ongoing with our guests after their episode is complete.
[00:16:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and we do thank all of you guests. We appreciate you very much all of your help and just giving us your time and allowing us to pick your brain. We really appreciate that and hope that this message is starting to get out to people around the world and yeah, I look forward to continuing to grow.
One of the big moments in the podcast for me was landing our first, all of our first guests, and talking the first time to a university professor was a really big moment. When we had Scott Culpepper on, that was big. And Danny Buck was the first international guest we interviewed, plus the first thesis we read. Talking to Malcolm Gaskill was incredible, because I'd read so many of his books. Several, can't number the books, but, once that happened, guests just kept wanting to come on and the positive response that we've had from the academic community is something that surprised me.
[00:17:46] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And we couldn't, we could not have done this without them.
[00:17:50] Josh Hutchinson: That's very true.
[00:17:51] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And then I think back to our very first episode, it was our exoneration project team members, Tony Griego, Beth Caruso, Josh, and I, and then we did a piece of the conversation with Mary Bingham. We just kicked it off with ourselves, but Scott came next, because he had been working on, he was giving, he was teaching on Connecticut witch trials and Governor Winthrop, Jr., and that was like a really great second springboard for us.
[00:18:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And then since then we've interviewed so many people who have literally written the book on the subject that we're talking about, like the book. So many of our guests, you look at early authors that we had on the show, Marion Gibson, Mary Craig, they literally wrote the book on the subject that we talked to them about. And people like Emerson Baker and Margo Burns and so many others have written these excellent books that I highly recommend, and one way that listeners can support us is by buying those books through our bookshop.org, bookshop.org/endwitchhunts. Thank you very much.
[00:19:20] Sarah Jack: Yeah. It's really fun to look through those books in there. And it, when you look through all of the titles from the guests that we've had, it's amazing to know that that much information and research has been a part of what has come together. And when you listen to these episodes with these authors who have written the book, you're getting to hear more straight from the author. I love that part.
[00:19:46] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And most of the time our show is serious in nature. But we've been able to record some fun episodes. We've got a really fun one coming up with Katherine Howe That's actually about pirates, so for one week, we will be the Witch Trials and Pirates Podcast. And that was just such a blast, because that book is such a fun ride.
[00:20:16] Sarah Jack: Yeah. A year ago, we were so excited about Ruin of All Witches. That book is so important and also a fun ride. And I think it's so great that here we are a year later, we're looking at another exceptional story, so what's next year? I'm thinking about that. Which of our guests or who are we going to find that has something like this exciting coming out?
[00:20:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And Katherine Howe is somebody that I've followed for many years who now we talk to, and it's just an amazing privilege, perk of the job, that I've got to pinch myself sometimes and say, yeah, we're talking to these people. We're talking to people who are heroes in their own countries doing the advocacy that is dangerous because if you advocate against witch hunting, people might interpret that as advocating for witches and they, there can be serious consequences when, if you yourself get labeled that way.
[00:21:24] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And we've really learned too about the definition of witches and, how does all of this affect people who are practicing Wiccans or Pagans and their discrimination that they face and how it's different. Yeah, we're just learning all these different layers of the witch and I remember when we, early on, I'm just thinking, man, it's like peeling an onion, it's like peeling an onion, and then there's just the, all these layers and there's been all these different ways of referring to the layers and the complexities and...
[00:22:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. So many layers to learn about. And one thing that I like about our podcast, in particular, is we're able to take these deep dives. When we did our Connecticut 101, it ended up being a six part series, so we're able to explore the details of the events that transpired. We're able to review an entire witch hunt from start to finish, because we're taking that time to do that, where a lot of shows, especially that are interview only, you're not able to explore that far, you're able to explore things at a high level, which is really important also, but to be able to do both and do a mix like we've done. And then to do follow up interviews and interview other people about similar, maybe this, we've talked to multiple people about Salem. We've talked to multiple people about Connecticut. We've drilled into those pretty extensively, but we've also approached those from the high level to see what caused those witch hunting events and what helped to end those witch hunt events, which is, both are key to our understanding what's going on now and how does it end? It ended for Europe and North America to the most part, for the most part. Organized witch trials aren't happening any longer. So what was it about that point in time when those witch trials ended in those regions? What was it about that point in time that they were able to overcome centuries of persecutions. And how do we apply that to the modern day? So I love getting the high level, but I also love being able to drill into, and we've got some more 101s coming up, and we've also got some really exciting Halloween content, don't we?
[00:24:30] Sarah Jack: We do. Yeah. We got to bring Scott Culpepper back. And we talked about the origins of Halloween, and I'm really excited for that episode.
[00:24:40] Josh Hutchinson: I'm so excited for that one. It was a bit of a fun episode. We talked about some fun things while also tying everything back to the portrayals of witches, things like that. I'm also really looking forward to talking with Maya Rook about witches in pop culture.
[00:25:02] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that again. It coming, through a year and getting to speak with some of our first guests a second time is exciting. And I'm excited to discuss the pop culture aspect of witches with Maya. It's something, throughout the year, I think that topic comes up as a layer, but we haven't really got to spend much time really discussing that, its impact on women, on culture, on society, on the arts. So it should be really enjoyable.
[00:25:42] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And we have another episode coming up that's going to be a real blast talking Halloween history with Sean and Carrie from Ain't It Scary with Sean and Carrie. That's one of our first real crossover kind of episode that we're doing with another podcast and they're just so much fun on their show. I know we're just going to have a ball doing that.
And then what else do we have coming up for Halloween, Sarah?
[00:26:14] Sarah Jack: The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery. They travel and they talk about cemeteries, and one of the topics that we're going to discuss with them is omen, signs.
[00:26:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. That's going to be very interesting. And again, that speaks to the variety of content that we've had on the show. I wouldn't have expected to be doing an episode like that when we began. We began with a relatively narrow focus and have broadened into so many different areas.
One thing that I'd like to touch on is, Sarah, we talk about a lot of really heavy stuff, a lot of deep topics and our guests give us so much information that sometimes it's a little hard to process everything that's going on and to deal with really challenging subject matter at times. So how do you, would you say you get through those challenging moments?
[00:27:31] Sarah Jack: I really try to go ahead and, put myself in the shoes of those people that were in those stories. Even though it's really hard to look at some of the horror, if you humanize it and really think about what was that personal journey like for that person? Who wasn't that much different, if they are at all, from us? So I think that's one way that I do.
[00:27:58] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I like to repeat, we have this little mantra in our organization that is just "mellow vibes" and so when things get heavy, I just remember to keep mellow vibes and be chill about stuff, basically. But at times it's challenging because the subjects are so ponderous, the talking about the modern witch hunts, especially, learning what's actually happening to the victims, which we don't always share all the details, because they're really gruesome. But we're seeing videos and images of victims and that can really weigh on you. But I just find a lot of motivation in that and turn it around to just use those images to inspire me to push harder and keep doing what we're doing with the show and with the nonprofit, End Witch Hunts. By the way, visit endwitchhunts.org.
[00:29:12] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Josh Hutchinson: Learn about our organization. We started as a continuation of the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project. The board consists of four of the founders of the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, plus the wonderful Jen Stevenson as secretary.
We have multiple projects running. We're excited that we get to probably talk to you about more of our projects coming up very soon, but we're working on memorialization in Connecticut right now. That's one thing that we're working on, and we're working on this world advocacy now, as well, largely amplifying other voices from these countries that have these issues.
[00:30:11] Sarah Jack: Yep. And there's still some exonerations that need to be looked at in the United States.
[00:30:15] Josh Hutchinson: There are other exonerations and so our show and our nonprofit organization we're doing, basically trying to honor the memory of past victims, educate about the past trials and of the many lessons that we can learn from witch trials, and inform people about the modern crisis. And then our other kind of branch or activity that we get into is advocacy, which is trying to inform world leaders about the situation and the options on how it can be resolved.
[00:31:07] Sarah Jack: Yeah, we've learned through the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project that community leaders are a critical part of moving forward with education and change around witch hunts. We are so grateful to Jane Garibay, House Representative Jane Garibay in Connecticut and Senator Saud Anwar. They worked so hard to get support from the other legislators, and when I say work hard, they were doing, navigating through their jobs and how they see bills through the process, but there, there was a lot of, some of it new information to them, and they were so attentive as we gave them more layers and more layers, and by the time the bill was on the last vote at the Senate floor, the modern witch hunt crisis was being mentioned. We'd had so many yes votes from the House from all political parties, and so when that final vote happened in the Senate and everyone voted yes but one politician, that, that really was a testament to the work that had been done into the project.
[00:32:20] Josh Hutchinson: And now that the exoneration has been done, the work of memorialization has begun.
[00:32:29] Sarah Jack: It has. We're excited about it. There's lots of community members and community organizations talking together, brainstorming, looking for that route, and you are welcome and should be a part of this.
[00:32:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, you can join us. Go to ConnecticutWitchTrials.org. There is a volunteer form on there you can fill out, if you'd like to help out with planning and executing this project to get a memorial built. And I want to talk a little bit about why a memorial and what a memorial might be. We're looking into doing a two pronged memorial, where there'd be one state memorial to all of the victims. We'd name all of the indicted, as well as those who were executed and honor all, so that would be 34 individuals.
And in addition to the statewide memorial or monument, there would be a state trail that called something like the Connecticut Witch Trials History Trail. And that would involve stops in each of the towns that either had witch trial action or were the hometowns of the victims, so you might start in Windsor, the hometown of the first victim, Alice Young, and travel through the state, you go through places like Farmington, Wethersfield, Hartford, Wallingford, Stratford, Fairfield, Bridgeport, New Haven, Old Saybrook, and there's even a stop in, on Long Island at East Hampton because that used to be part of Connecticut and while it was part of Connecticut, one woman was tried for witchcraft by a Connecticut court.
[00:34:42] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And over the last decades or more, there have been people working and providing and researching their local witch trial in their town in Connecticut, and having this trail, having the memorial, it's an opportunity to bring all the work that's been done to, to connect it so that Connecticut has a clear picture and it's, each of the efforts won't be so siloed, there's just so much that has actually been done, but some of it isn't reaching the whole state. The whole picture isn't being told yet, and so I'm excited to see more of that shown, how the work has been done on the local level in many of the communities.
[00:35:33] Josh Hutchinson: It's exciting how the local communities are embracing the history and they're willing to take it on. It's a challenging moment in history. A lot of people look at it and feel shame and guilt for that. So it's not the easiest subject to broach that hey, we hunted witches here. But we need to learn those lessons and you learn them very well by going to these locations where trials were held, where executions took place, where victims lived their lives and accusations arose. You get to go to physical locations now in some of these locations. There's the Goody Knapp Memorial in Bridgeport dedicated to a woman who was executed in that area. It's so great to see these communities, and we know of others that are working on getting memorial markers placed similar to what was done with the Goody Knapp stone with the plaque on it dedicated to her memory.
You'll start to see those in these other locations, and we're starting to see historical societies and museums really take an interest in this part of the past, and so there will be lots of stops on the trail, but the basic premise is you go to a memorial and then for more information you go to historical societies, museums, and libraries in that community, and they'll have answers to your questions about what happened there. That's our vision for the trail, for the memorial. We've talked about our advocacy, we've talked about amplifying other advocates voices. What haven't we talked about?
[00:37:49] Sarah Jack: And just like all of that came out in less than a year, but there's one other thing that I was thinking while we were sitting here talking is this wasn't our first podcast to have a conversation on. No.
[00:38:00] Josh Hutchinson: What was that?
[00:38:01] Sarah Jack: People Hidden in History.
[00:38:03] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, that's right. We had a conversation on the People Hidden in History podcast with Kathleen Langone a month before we conducted our first interview for this podcast. And so that was an informative step and we really appreciate you, Kathleen.
[00:38:24] Sarah Jack: We do. And if you haven't heard it, she did a followup conversation with us after the exoneration went through and that also a great episode.
[00:38:34] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So a year apart, there's the two episodes of us, what we wanted to get out of the exoneration in the first episode, and then what it was like to experience the process of getting the resolution done.
[00:38:51] Sarah Jack: And we also, we had our first invite as Thou Shalt Not Suffer to have a conversation on another podcast to talk about witches.
[00:39:02] Josh Hutchinson: Witches, yes. That was a big one. And then you were invited to be on the NPR show 1A.
[00:39:13] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:39:13] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
[00:39:14] Sarah Jack: Having the opportunity on Extreme Genes with Scott Fisher and David Allen Lambert that, that's their podcast. That really helped me realize, hey, I can have some of these impromptu conversations. I can speak to what I've been learning.
[00:39:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And in addition to the podcast, going through the process on exoneration, we had so much interaction with traditional media. Everybody had questions about what are we doing? Why are we doing it? And learning, getting comfortable answering journalists questions, I think, really also benefited our podcasting.
[00:39:58] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and so many of them were able to get what we were saying through the editing and into the article. There's some really great articles and quotes out there this past year from those interactions.
[00:40:13] Josh Hutchinson: The stories about the exoneration were picked up by literally hundreds of news networks and outlets. We got to see us in the Associated Press, Sarah was in the New York Times, there's been, we've been in The Economist. Some really big organizations have covered our story, CNN, the BBC, all of them, basically.
[00:40:48] Sarah Jack: And I hope what you're hearing, we haven't spoken much of the descendants. There were lots of descendants involved wanting this exoneration. They want the memorial. We have a great episode where we talk to some of the descendants, but the, there was such a collaboration of descendants and authors and advocates and politicians and the local museums. It's really been great to see. It's not just one reason that the exoneration.
[00:41:18] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. And just looking through, there were something like 34 written testimonies submitted to the General Assembly in support of this resolution, and 11 people gave in-person oral testimony.
[00:41:39] Sarah Jack: I got to be one of those people.
[00:41:42] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah got to be one of those people. And she ought to be asked some difficult questions, we'd say. And there were young people also involved in that with William and Catherine.
[00:41:57] Sarah Jack: It was Catherine, 14, stood up, spoke to the history, answered some tough questions.
[00:42:04] Josh Hutchinson: Brilliantly.
[00:42:05] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and William.
[00:42:07] Josh Hutchinson: And William.
[00:42:07] Sarah Jack: Exceptional for 9, I believe. Yeah.
[00:42:10] Josh Hutchinson: Nine years old at the time.
[00:42:12] Sarah Jack: And you could hear he and his mother speak on one of our episodes. That's a really great episode, too. Jennifer Schloat was a great guest.
[00:42:19] Josh Hutchinson: That was a really great episode to do with the two of them. And just to hear a 9 year old and a 14 year old speaking to these issues, and they both came from different perspectives on how they got interested in the topic. I think one was compelled for, by his interest in human rights issues and the other was really propelled by an interest in women's issues and you see all of those things coming together.
[00:42:57] Sarah Jack: Look at the story we just told. It's a very layered podcast and podcast year, and we couldn't do it without our supporters.
[00:43:06] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we thank you for listening. Couldn't do a podcast without having listeners, that would be awkward. We really appreciate you interacting with us, and subscribing to the show and getting involved in the ways that Sarah presents.
We haven't talked about the news piece and Minute with Mary. Those are two important segments of the show and those will continue to be important going forward. The news, every week Sarah asked the audience to participate in the advocacy. You can do it just by telling somebody that you know about what's going on. Just get that started, post something on social media, share something that we post. Now, so thank you for your involvement. I hope you have a really great today and a very excellent, happy tomorrow.
[00:44:16] Sarah Jack: I was going to say, "Hey, let's say your final tagline together."
[00:44:19] Josh Hutchinson: Okay, let's try it.
[00:44:20] Sarah Jack: All right.
Have a great today
[00:44:24] Josh Hutchinson: and a beautiful tomorrow. We said it together.
[00:44:30] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:44:30] Josh Hutchinson: So that's a first too for us saying things and we're sitting on a couch and in this booth here and in person.
This was fun.
It took us like six months to meet each other.
[00:44:47] Sarah Jack: And now our friend Mary Bingham is here with this week's Minute with Mary.

[00:44:58] Mary Bingham: What does it mean to gaslight a person? As a verb, it means to manipulate someone so much that the person being manipulated questions their own reasoning. Most of us have been on the receiving end of this extremely cruel treatment.
According to Aaron Mahnke and the podcast titled Unobscured, Hannah Stone certainly was a victim who paid with her life. Hannah was the daughter of Ann and Andrew Foster of Andover, Massachusetts, British America. She married Hugh Stone in 1667 and started to bear him children when their first son, Hugh, was born November 24th, 1668. According to author Richard Hite, Hannah bore six more children through 1686.
Between 1680 and 1686, life must have been pretty tough for Hannah. Richard Hite says in his book, In the Shadow of Salem, that Hugh appeared before the quarterly courts three times for being drunk. The two times I found him listed, he seems to man up before the judges, saying that he is sorry. Even Nathaniel Saltonstall believed Hugh was repentant when Hugh voluntarily stepped before him. That Hugh turned himself in could be because some were ready to testify against him. Nathaniel determined that Hugh should pay an undisclosed fine. I wonder if this public displays of misbehaviors, though unsavory as they were probably masked the horror that was really going on in the Stone household.
Hannah must have feared for her life. What could she do? How could she escape? How could her family help her? They couldn't. Hannah was pregnant when Hugh murdered her in broad daylight and in public. Ann Foster lost her daughter. Hannah's children lost their mother. The generational trauma would become evident in just a few short years.
Hugh was sentenced to hang. His final words at the gallows were that Hannah's family caused him, at least in part, to murder his wife. He gaslighted his in-laws to the end. What a stab in the stomach that must have been to Hannah's mother and her children. Please listen to the episode in this podcast titled The Andover Witch-Hunt with Richard Hite. You won't be disappointed. Thank you.

[00:47:39] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:47:42] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has another insightful edition of End Witch Hunts News.

[00:47:54] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a non profit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch hunt memorials and commemorations now take many forms and serve as enduring, tangible reminders. On September 16th, 2023, a historic and poignant event took place in North Pownal, Vermont, as the community came together to dedicate the Legends and Lore Witch Trial Marker.
This significant occasion was made possible through the collaboration of the Vermont Folklife Center and the William C. Pomeroy Foundation, with the invaluable support of the Bennington Museum and the Pownal Historical Society. Attendees heard the captivating narrative of the widow with many names, a story that has been passed down through generations. While formal documents about the witch trial have yet to be found, the marker commemorates the Krieger family, who resided in North Pownal, and the remarkable woman who became known as Widow Krieger in 1785.
The dedication ceremony featured a heartfelt reading by a Historical Society member who has dedicated years to researching Widow Krieger and her family. During the reading, they shared their personal reflections and wondered what it would have been like to live as Widow Krieger's neighbors in the 1700s. According to student staff writer Eva Dailey of Southern Vermont College Media, The Looking Glass, in the article, Vintage Vermont Lore 5: Mrs. Krieger, Vermont's Only Witch, quote, "though an exact year is not given, as only a brief record of the incident exists, clues are available to those who dig deep enough. According to town records, the Kriegers, a Dutch family, first settled in Pownal in the early 1700s and are mentioned in the original town charter of 1760. Her accusers asserted that she possessed extraordinary powers. According to Vermont's lore expert, Joe Citro, Mrs. Krieger was thrown into the Hoosic River, still iced over by winter, to see if the devil would hold her afloat or not. The story goes that her accusers dove in to rescue her when she sank."
At the marker ceremony, it was shared that, unable to own land as a woman, the widow was ultimately forced to leave Pownal, Vermont, and return to her birthplace, Williamstown, Massachusetts. Margaret Schumacher Krieger rests in Westlawn Cemetery in Williamstown, Massachusetts, alongside her husband, John, her son, Peter, and her granddaughter, Elizabeth.
To learn more about this memorial marker and the event, go to the Pownal Historical Society Facebook page. Pownal is spelled P O W N A L. Links to the Facebook page and the referred article are in the show notes.
Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We have enjoyed this last year with you. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.

[00:51:27] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:51:28] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:51:30] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[00:51:34] Sarah Jack: Join us again for another year.
[00:51:37] Josh Hutchinson: Once again, have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow and a totally epic next year.

September 21, 2023

Diana Helmuth on her Memoir The Witching Year

Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project

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Show Notes

Learn about one woman’s passage into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America. Author Diana Helmuth is releasing her second book, The Witching Year: A Memoir of Earnest Fumbling Through Modern Witchcraft in October 2023. In this author interview, we have an unreserved conversation about the year she spent journeying into modern witchcraft practices. She offers a heartfelt discussion on the successes and failures, the ins and outs that her upcoming memoir details.

DianaHelmuth.com

International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

The International Network

Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis

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Transcript

[00:00:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
Josh Hutchinson: We're eager to bring you this interview with Diana Helmuth, author of The Witching Year: a Memoir of Earnest Fumbling through Modern Witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: Today you will learn about one woman's journey, Diana's, into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America.
Josh Hutchinson: Diana spent 366 days learning how to practice the modern craft.
Sarah Jack: The Witching Year is an honest trip through her successes and failures as she learned the ins and outs. [00:01:00] Here's Diana Helmuth. She studied cultural anthropology at UC Berkeley and American University in Cairo. She is a nonfiction author, freelance writer, Silicon Valley startup veteran, hiker, producer, and cupcake baker. Her first book is How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking. And her new book, The Witching Year, is available to pre order now.
Josh Hutchinson: We begin with a reading from The Witching Year by author Diana Helmuth.
Diana Helmuth: In the spirit of better planning, I am trying to come up with a list of what I'm now referring to as significant pagan locations where I can spend Lammas. I don't want to be locked in my office with a cardboard box again, and unfortunately pagan sanctuaries continue to elude me. I've already emailed five in California and received no response. (I'm assuming they are ignoring me because of COVID, but that might also be me just trying to protect my ego.)
Diana Helmuth: I text both Emma and Lauren about this [00:02:00] problem, asking their advice.
Diana Helmuth: Lauren replies, "have you thought about going to Salem?"
Diana Helmuth: And this gets me excited, because I have been waiting for an opportunity to spring into my speech. "Salem?" I reply. "But those women weren't even witches. In fact, they were insisting they were Christian the whole time they were being indicted. Isn't it pretty ironic to build a witchy homeland on their legacy? By doing so, aren't we committing the same offense as their captors and denying the wishes of the falsely accused? How did Salem become a place where actual witches connect?"
Diana Helmuth: "You have given this some thought," she replies.
Diana Helmuth: I have. Salem is the home of witchcraft because witchcraft in the modern zeitgeist is a community of weirdos bonding about abandoning Christianity.
Diana Helmuth: She taps back, "there is no homeland. So we made one. It was easy to put it there."
Diana Helmuth: "But isn't the place where Christian women insisted they weren't witches and got burned anyway for being witches a pretty dumb place for a witchy homeland?" I retort.[00:03:00]
Diana Helmuth: "Nobody actually got burned in Salem, she replies. They were hung. As for Europe, women were burned for witchcraft whether or not they were witches, and most weren't. They just owned land or were Romani or just happened to be someone's least favorite washerwoman. But those women became symbols for the persecution of women, and witchcraft is about reclaiming female power, so you end up back at square one."
Diana Helmuth: I grumble. I can't plan a trip to Salem on this short notice, but I wonder about Samhain, the witch's new year, also known as Halloween. I switch over to Emma, who lives in New England, and ask her what Salem is like in October.
Diana Helmuth: "Hell," she replies. "You do not want to come here on Halloween. It is goth Outside Lands. There's trash everywhere. You can barely get through the crowds. I thought I was going to have a panic attack just walking around."
Diana Helmuth: "I see," I reply, a bit disappointed.
Diana Helmuth: "But as for a Wiccan sacred place," you know, "you've already been going there, [00:04:00] her text bubble reads. It's nature. I don't know if you're aware of this, but your favorite hobby has been, for some time, pretty damn witchy."
Diana Helmuth: She's right. I know she's right. A deep connection with the earth is one of the few things that witches seem to universally agree is important. At the same time, I know a lot of witches I would lovingly describe as "indoor cats"-- tarot-throwing, tea-sipping, pentacle-wearing cat moms without so much as a potted mint on their windowsill. They have their kinks, but putting everything in a bag and getting spanked by nature for three days isn't one of them.
Diana Helmuth: "Hiking and backpacking isn't sacred for every witch," I tap back.
Diana Helmuth: "No," she replies, "but that's the great part about witchcraft. Everyone connects with nature in their own way. You get to make it your own. It's pretty obvious you've felt pulled by nature for a long time. So just keep going."
Diana Helmuth: I briefly consider telling her about my failed experiment with the oregano and then change my mind.
Diana Helmuth: Backpacking, while being a favorite hobby, might [00:05:00] also help with meditation. Roderick encourages people who have trouble meditating in stillness to try slow, mindful walking. What's more, walking doesn't hurt my back. It's stillness that is causing me issues. When I'm moving, nothing hurts. I began prepping for my first pilgrimage.
Sarah Jack: Thank you.
Josh Hutchinson: You've published two books now, right?
Diana Helmuth: Yes, the first one was called How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking, which was a kind of a tongue in cheek approach. I like to think of it as a permission slip that I, someone had written for me when I was younger and figuring out backpacking for myself. The idea was allowing people to feel like even if they feel incorrect or like they're doing something wrong, or that someone is going to make fun of them, that they still deserve to go into nature, they can still engage with this hobby, perfection is an illusion, and the [00:06:00] whole thing is pretty goofy and painful in the first place, so just lean into it and fall down a lot, and it's fine. You still belong, you still deserve to do this, which sort of was the energy we took into The Witching Year, even though The Witching Year is not, it's not a how to. It is not prescriptive. It's just a memoir of me falling down a lot, trying to become a witch.
Josh Hutchinson: What was occupying your time before you started writing?
Diana Helmuth: I was, like most writers, like most artists, I think you do your art as often as you can while you're doing the other things that make you money or make you feel like a responsible human, taking care of other people and getting your bills paid. But I started to lean more into my writing while I was an operations and marketing assistant at a robotics company, Silicon Valley.
Diana Helmuth: I went to school. I wanted to [00:07:00] be a diplomat. I wanted to work in the Foreign Service. I was studying Arabic. I wanted to create intercultural communication bridges between the West and the Middle East. And a long story short, that didn't end up happening. I got jaded with some of the processes there, but we don't need to have that conversation.
Diana Helmuth: I worked in Silicon Valley startup land. I grew up in Northern California. I graduated from college right when the startup scene was booming in San Francisco, and I got swept right up into it. And I don't have any regrets about that, actually. I learned a lot. And I got to work with some really interesting, really smart people in a very interesting and funny time in San Francisco's history.
Sarah Jack: What led you to begin your year long spiritual quest?
Diana Helmuth: When is a good time to decide you want to try and become a witch? What happens? Crisis and the desire for something [00:08:00] interesting. I have two answers to this. The first is, I grew up in Northern California near a lot of the 1960s kind of hippie movement witchcraft started.
Diana Helmuth: These were the people who took Wicca, and you have Starhawk with the Goddess Movement, and you have Oberon Zell-Ravenheart working with all these neopagan groups, and all of these folks are percolating, Zsuzsanna Budapest starts Dianic Wicca, and all of this is happening in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and I'm born in the 80s. When I grew up, kids in school weren't just reading Harry Potter, they were reading Harry Potter and learning tarot and reading each other's star signs, and a lot of them were reading Silver Ravenwolf and Scott Cunningham and were saying, "I'm a Wiccan. I am a witch. And this isn't a joke to me. This is actually serious."
Diana Helmuth: I think I knew as many witches in high school as I knew Jewish people and actual Christians. And I think that is just very unique to where I grew up. I don't think most people in the country experience [00:09:00] that. So I knew witches growing up, and I thought it was interesting. I went to some rituals in high school, I dabbled, but I never really felt it in my bones in a very serious way. I never engaged with it in a very serious way. Like I also went to church with some of my friends and I think sermons were interesting and I didn't think Christianity was for me for a few different reasons. I always had a pleasant time when I went to church. I get the appeal. I saw the pull of inspiration and community and love that is at the root of a lot of religions that draws people in.
Diana Helmuth: But why did I decide all of a sudden at 35 to start to become a witch? I had been dabbling with it for years again, and I actually had some friends, I had two friends who are characters in the book, Meg Elison and Lauren Parker, who are both witches and also authors themselves, and they've become [00:10:00] my mentors throughout the year. And I got in an argument with Lauren one night while Meg was in the room. It was over Zoom and we were arguing about astrology and I said to her, I just got really real.
Diana Helmuth: And I said, "listen, astrology is bullshit. And it's bullshit because it is precisely antithetical to the goals of self empowerment that it peddles. It's like, how can you have this whole pseudoscience that is designed to get people in touch with who they are when it's entirely prescriptive and unchangeable based on when they were born? This is a crime."
Diana Helmuth: And she, she's, "that's not what astrology is, you're being narrow minded, it's not that scriptive, it's a path to discover the self."
Diana Helmuth: We were just buttheads and butting heads, and finally Meg intervened and she said, "do you know what the funniest thing in the world would be? Is if you got your chart professionally read and then tried to live it for a year and [00:11:00] saw what happened."
Diana Helmuth: And then Lauren said, no, it'd be, I might have it backwards. One of them said, "you should try living astrologically for a year." And then the other one said, "no, you should just try being a witch for a year," because the astrology conversation, the fight had, was born out of me saying, "I don't think this is what the occult is about."
Diana Helmuth: And Lauren said, "the fuck do you know the occult is about? Do you really know?"
Diana Helmuth: So we were in this fight about the occult and she basically said, "what do you know?"
Diana Helmuth: And I said, "nothing, but here's why I think too much of it is ironic. And I think too much of it encourages you to practice the opposite of what it is preaching."
Diana Helmuth: And she said, "you should try living as a witch for a year, because I think this would be hilarious."
Diana Helmuth: And I was looking for another book idea, and I pitched it to my agent. And she said, "oh, this sounds really funny. Okay. Yeah, do it."
Diana Helmuth: And originally, it was supposed to be a comedy. Is not a comedy now. We were spoofing off of A. J. Jacobs' Year of Living Biblically. I'm [00:12:00] very honest with that. I used his journey as a foil for my own, and he's quite funny in that. He's very glib. I found it harder to stay as glib as the year went on. I think parts of it are very funny. I am told parts of it are extremely funny, but it is not a comedy. It quickly became not a comedy as the year went on.
Sarah Jack: I could really relate to, I don't, wouldn't even call it sarcasm either, when you're having your experiences and you're talking, even at the beginning with just your intro, but when you're talking about the day that you're in and there's something funny about it, the way you present it is super relatable. Those moments where I think, okay, I'm either going to laugh right now or I'm going to cry. There's like some of that, like where you try to find the humor and just what could really be upsetting or frustrating. So I think you're really good at doing that.
Diana Helmuth: Thank you. Yeah I think some of this stuff is just... It is funny. [00:13:00] It's not supposed to be funny, and that's precisely why it's hilarious. It's supposed to be very serious. This is religion. This is spirituality. We're tapping into divinity. We're invoking gods. This is intense. And then it gets so serious. It's like when someone looks you right in the eye. My mom does this to my niece all the time, especially when she's in a really cranky mood and she goes, "whatever you do, don't smile." And it's, she can't help it. She erupts and giggles. And that's started to feel every time I sat down and actually tried to be a serious witch.
Diana Helmuth: And then quickly it was depressing, like I'm not doing it right. Cause I'm actually trying, really trying, I'm trying to do this right. And then, eventually, not to give the book away, but I don't want people to think this book is a dunkathon on witchcraft, because it isn't.
Diana Helmuth: But some breakthroughs happen, and when they happen, they are actually ecstatic. And you are laughing, but you're laughing for a different reason. You're laughing because you're happy. You're laughing because you feel like you made it to the top of the [00:14:00] mountaintop, and you never understood before, and it's, yeah, that's pretty cool.
Diana Helmuth: So I did want to talk about the honesty of the pitfalls of going on a spiritual journey, but there are also moments where I hope it's apparent that the rewards were savored.
Josh Hutchinson: That definitely came across with your gratitude for those moments when things went more as expected. But you write, and I like that you're very honest about your experiences and when things weren't working, you talk about how it didn't work, but you kept going. So how did you manage to keep going through all the setbacks?
Diana Helmuth: Ah, that's a great question. All completely honest, I think if I wasn't on a contract and getting paid to do this, I probably would have thrown in the towel three months earlier, which I am a creature who needs a lot of [00:15:00] accountability. I think witchcraft is an autodidact's dream religion.
Diana Helmuth: You could argue if it's even a religion. Of course, a lot of people would say it's not. I'm not here to fight with them. It doesn't have to be, you don't want it to be. But for other people, it is. And I think that's fair, too. But the mentors are helpful. I think just sitting and reading your books, and this is something that happens to me throughout the year. I am alone. It is COVID. It wasn't supposed to be. We thought COVID was going to wrap up at the end of 2021. It sure didn't. So COVID basically became a character in the book. We changed the whole roadmap of what the year was going to look like.
Diana Helmuth: I was supposed to go to all these events. I was supposed to do all these fun things, attend these festivals, attend these conventions. Very few of them actually happened. Most of the book is me in my house reading, talking to Lauren and Meg and interviewing some folks in the community, but for the most part, I am alone, which on the one hand, I think is a bad way to learn and on the other hand, I think reflects the experience [00:16:00] of most people who are dabbling in witchcraft now. So hopefully there is some relatability there.
Diana Helmuth: But near the end of the year, I also do start to, as the world opens up, I start to reconnect with other witches and just things get solved for me so quickly. I have amazing conversations with people that are so educational and productive and healing, and I would say, again, the book's not prescriptive and I'm not going to teach anyone how to be a witch, but if you were going to dabble, I think like any major undertaking, it's good to have some accountability and some voices outside of your own head. Get a group, man, get a coven.
Sarah Jack: And you really had a variety of voices in your story. I love that. The different conversations and encounters you're having and your inquiries. You're getting personal experience and opinion from the different individuals, and it feels like you're collecting, that you're [00:17:00] in the field collecting research and looking. I really enjoyed that piece of the journey, too.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah. We initially when I turned in the first chunk, my, one of my editors said, "this reads like a dissertation. Can you? Can you chill a little?"
Diana Helmuth: And I was like, "I want to make it clear I did my homework."
Diana Helmuth: And she was like, "remember, this is entertainment. No one is giving you a PhD at the end of this."
Diana Helmuth: There's a long bibliography. I wanted to make it clear that I had endeavored to educate myself and present the education that was relevant and fascinating. But yeah, we did have to tone some of it down a little bit, but I'm glad that came through, some of that research came through. Really nice to hear, actually.
Sarah Jack: My tie to witchcraft is the witch trial history, because I descend from two women that hanged in Salem, Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty. And then I had another family in my tree that stood trial, but they survived.
Diana Helmuth: [00:18:00] I think it's really interesting that you descended from these women who were accused in this whirlwind of hate, basically, and then suffered and then died. I think it's interesting that both of you were, and something that I, in the book I talk about this, but I do go to Salem, and I'm bitter the whole time I'm there, and I, even though Salem is actually a lovely town, and everyone I met there was extremely nice, and the reason that I was a little bitter about it is because I thought it was, again, I thought it was a little bit ironic that this has become the home of modern witchcraft, because all of the women there who were accused of witchcraft wouldn't have said they were witches. So I think it's a little twisted and macabre to then build this celebration of this thing that they rejected, probably until their dying breath, basically. There's something a little [00:19:00] twisted about it. These women said they weren't witches. They were killed in a hate crime. And now we're here being like, "we're witches, yay." And we know they didn't sign up to be the symbols for this. When I bring this issue to Lauren, one of my mentors in the book, she says, "witchcraft needed a homeland and it was easy to put it there because, after 200 years, there's an evolution."
Diana Helmuth: So maybe in the soil of Salem, there is some kind of reclamation about how at the end of the day, you end up back at square one when you're talking about the persecution of witches and the persecution of women because the women and, the man, but the women who were largely accused and harmed on the charge of witchcraft. Even if they weren't, you're really looking at a hate crime against women, and witchcraft is a lot about the liberation of women and female empowerment. So again, you end up back at square one, which I suppose is fair. [00:20:00] I'll give it that. It just always struck me as a little strange, but at this point, I think Salem is here to stay. I think it's only growing. I think the more people who think about neopaganism in general is a good thing. I don't think Salem should shut down tomorrow. I'm not advocating for that. I just think the building up of Salem into what it is today is a little bit of a funny story, but you know what, so is the existence of the United States. So what are you going to do?
Josh Hutchinson: I think it's beautiful the way it's come like full circle. It built up this infamous reputation because of the witch trials and had this reputation as being an intolerant place. And now it's the scene of religious tolerance, tolerating the neopagan faiths, which certainly there's been a lot of intolerance towards that, so it's good that there's like a safe haven. Yeah.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah. I like that. I really like how you phrased that. I think [00:21:00] that's absolutely true.
Sarah Jack: I think that the people who go to Salem are seeking empowerment. There's a lot of opportunity to learn the history, too, when you're there.
Diana Helmuth: I went in the off season, it was actually quite lovely and the snow is very pretty, but everything was closed. I mean, when they say off season, they really mean off season. There was a museum we didn't even get to because they were just like, we don't open until April. I was like, Oh my bad. I came in February for Imbolc. I have heard during Halloween, it is probably depending on your personality type, a rowdy, vivacious, magnificent party or an absolute hellscape but I didn't manage to make it out there during Halloween, but it's quite pleasant in the off season if anyone ever wants to go, recommend it, actually, just make sure everything you want to see is actually open, but yeah, it was nice.
Josh Hutchinson: One of the things that I liked about your approach to the book and to your experience is that you sought information from different traditions. [00:22:00] You didn't just say, I'm going to do Wicca by the book, or I'm going to focus on being a particular type of witch. So I thought it was very interesting that you have all these multiple perspectives coming in.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah that was the hardest part, actually, was the methodology. A. J. Jacobs has the Bible, which, granted, there's a lot of different versions, and how do you interpret? I'm not saying the Bible is like a clean path or anything, but it is a book. And witchcraft does not have an equivalent.
Diana Helmuth: It does not have a pope. It does not have anything that formal or hierarchical, not really. So I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? Because I simply cannot read every book and every website and listen to every podcast episode. There's just so much content in this landscape and some of it contradicts itself and some of it is very old and some of it is very new and it's [00:23:00] hard to even know what qualifies sometimes.
Diana Helmuth: So I looked up all the books with Wicca in the title or the subheading were the best sellers for the past hundred years. And I bought them all or the top 10 or 15 or something. And I said, "okay, this is it. This is my canon." That was the best methodology I could actually think of. And then of course, there's been in the United States, it's a growing trend in younger witches away from Wicca. Wicca I think is starting to be seen as a little bit stuffy, a little problematic, a little doddering, even though Wicca has absolutely permeated the American witchcraft landscape and largely, I would say, of the entire West. People throw in different flavors, but it's, you can't, Wicca is everywhere. I think people are accidentally doing it all the time, even when they think they're not. Oh, did you know that practice was borrowed from Wicca? They might not even know who Gerald Gardner is, but they're like doing stuff that he recommended in a book he wrote in the 1950s.
Diana Helmuth: Granted, Gerald [00:24:00] Gardner took a lot of that stuff from older traditions. I'm not saying he invented them but I think that some people get really upset with Wicca. I'm not quite sure why. It gets a little, it gets a little funny to me because I think it comes out of a fear of religion and you can't be religious or you'll be stupid. It's everybody just breathe. I'm not saying Wicca's perfect, but I think there's a lot of good in it. And I think we should acknowledge how much it has influenced modern witchcraft.
Diana Helmuth: But anyway, so I get to November and Meg says to me, Meg is a Gardnerian Wiccan. She tells me, "what are you doing with this reading list?"
Diana Helmuth: And I say, "I wanted to stick to Wicca because it had structure and I felt like I needed structure and it seemed a little more just organized and considering how much of modern witchcraft is influenced by Wicca, it just seemed like an easier path."
Diana Helmuth: And she was like, she just looked at me and she said, "you are keeping yourself in the dark with this reading list. Like you need to branch out now or you're [00:25:00] kidding yourself."
Diana Helmuth: So I went back to the drawing board. She was right, of course. I went back to the drawing board and said, okay. So let's just focus on witchcraft. Wicca is small. Witchcraft is way bigger. Witchcraft is a spirituality. Wicca is a religion. And again, that can be debatable depending on the person. That's what I personally think. But I bought the top 10 to 15 books on witchcraft, and threw those into my cart, bought them all, and then started devouring them. And there were some interesting trends. There were some things that changed, but what's funny is most of the books that I bought, and this is why I say what I said earlier about how I think when people are practicing witchcraft and pretend it's so different from Wicca, unless they're doing something really specific like Hoodoo or Conjure or Voodoo they're, if they're doing like European defensive witchcraft, it probably has a [00:26:00] lot of Wicca in it because if they're reading these popular books, these top books that I read, every single one of them was written by a Wiccan. I thought I was going on this whole new magical journey and really, I was just basically hanging out in Wicca. The sole exception was Juliet Diaz's book Witchery. And she's written many books since, and Juliet Diaz, of course, is a bruja.
Diana Helmuth: But there is even a lot of Wiccan flavor in her writing, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just there.
Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like witchcraft, broadly speaking, offers something for every personality type. If you want the structure, you can choose the structure. If you want to practice independently, you can practice independently.
Diana Helmuth: Gardnerian Wicca is very structured. It has a lot of rules. It has a lot of formality. It really follows in the tradition of someone who is seeking something, someone who is seeking religion. And by that, someone [00:27:00] who is seeking order and community and clean paths to connect with other humans and the divine together. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. You have to be initiated. It's secretive. I don't, I wouldn't necessarily call it a closed practice. Solitary Wiccans of course exists. Scott Cunningham wrote a beautiful book about it, because he said Wicca is too beautiful for people to continue to just have it be a, this closed door thing, and you have to know someone to get you in, and he was like, fuck that, I this should belong to everybody, I refer to him as the Bernie Sanders of witchcraft, you know, because he threw open the doors and was like, everybody get in here, we're not doing this anymore, come on, this is too good.
Diana Helmuth: And I, I always, I will always love Scott Cunningham for that. Some of his writing is problematic. I like to think if he had lived longer, he would have gone back and corrected some things. But unfortunately, he died when he was very young, so he never got the chance.
Diana Helmuth: Witchcraft, on the other hand, is [00:28:00] much more free form. Who decides if you're a witch or not? Unless you're part of some organized coven, which a lot of people are. There's so many witchcraft traditions, but a lot of people today are just eclectic, they're just picking up stuff online, things are resonating with them, and then they're following them, and I do think that's a good thing, also, because so much of modern witchcraft is essentially therapy and self empowerment in every sense of the word, and it is not just for women.
Diana Helmuth: There is so much here for men. Like, whenever I meet a male witch, I'm like, good on you, king, holy shit, tell the brethren please we need so much, we need so many more of you. Yes, witchcraft is about women and women's empowerment, because it's usually women who are getting persecuted, if you look at the history books. But... Oh my god, there's so much here for every gender. I really just want every guy I know to get into witchcraft so badly. I think the world would be such an amazing place if that [00:29:00] happened.
Diana Helmuth: But yeah, I, witchcraft is very open, it's very freeing, there are very few rules, and subsequently I think we just fight a lot about what is correct or not, but at the same time, they're all on the same team because we all just want to feel safe and connected, and we're all fighting for the same thing.
Diana Helmuth: And I often talk about witches being truly the perfect example of sisterhood. You can be fighting with someone really viciously, and then 10 minutes later, like sharing Skittles with them. That, that is sisterhood, and a lot of witchcraft is like that, which I like. It's a safe place to spar ideas, knowing that you guys are ultimately on the same team as each other. I really like that about the witchcraft community and I think that's true even across traditions, like not just with European Wiccan style, but with, brujas and other sects. I really think there's this larger sense of we're all working towards the same goal. It's really beautiful.
Sarah Jack: [00:30:00] I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you have such a bond and perspective with nature and our climate, and then of course witchcraft has so much nature in it. You have your own personal relationship with nature and then now this journey probably brought a new dimension.
Diana Helmuth: Trying to be a witch for a year turned me into a rabid environmentalist. And I was always very left in my politics. I believe in climate change. I want politicians to help us reduce our carbon footprint. I believe in preserving the forests that I play in. And I think nature is a good thing and should be preserved. And the more nature we have, the better the planet will be and the better we will be with it, on it. But with that said, there was something about, I think, meditating on the interconnectedness of things, just [00:31:00] going outside and just staring at your garden for 20 minutes. Okay, you don't have a garden, maybe you live in an apartment. Okay, going outside and just like looking at the tree that's down the block from you, that boring ass tree. It like is a pathway to the universe. I know how insane that sounds.
Diana Helmuth: There was something that happened during the year where I got almost eco anxiety, actually, because the earth is a sacred thing in witchcraft. And I was writing about that a lot and meditating on that a lot. And I started to have anxiety around buying things in plastic containers and everything I wanted to do to help protect the environment just felt so impotent. Oh, I can vote and recycle. Oh, what? No. That's nothing. I'm the smallest of drops in a very dry bucket and we need so much more than that.
Diana Helmuth: Which in a way I think was a good thing. It motivated me to be more active in my political life in these efforts, but at the [00:32:00] same time, ultimately, it was very depressing because I think when we as individuals think about things as massive as climate change, it's very difficult not to get just horrifically depressed and especially with wildfires that are going on across the West Coast every year. I mean I weep over them. I really do. I take it very personally. These forests don't bounce back super fast. People say that they do, they don't. They will, but it doesn't happen in a year or two or three or five or even 10 in many cases. Yeah, I guess being a witch increased my eco anxiety.
Diana Helmuth: Nature is beautiful and powerful, but also is not your friend. Nature is a process. You are a part of that process. That process is not always kind. Backpacking will teach you that very quickly. To romanticize nature is to put yourself in danger, and a lot of witchcraft does romanticize nature, but I think what I actually learned is that it [00:33:00] doesn't mean, witchcraft doesn't mean going outside and thinking that nothing's going to hurt you and that everything is for you and talking to you. I think it's more like going outside and realizing that everything is connected and you're a part of that connection. And wow, doesn't it feel so good to be part of something so big and to feel plugged in like that? That's more what it is, I think.
Josh Hutchinson: The realization that you had during your journey when you realized hey, we're all the same atoms from the same distant stars and everything. We're made, literally made of the same stuff. So you know, that's just seemed like such a beautiful realization.
Diana Helmuth: Thank you. Yeah. I am worried a lot of my atheist friends are going to read this book and think I am insane now, but that's just the risk you take when you go on a spiritual journey. [00:34:00] We'll just see how it shakes out. Hopefully, I'll still have friends.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. As one atheist here, opinion, I. I don't feel that way. I think what you did was great. And I have nothing but respect for that. And if I were to choose a religion, I think that something that valued nature would be what I would do. I'm a guy who once spent two years camping.
Diana Helmuth: Two years.
Josh Hutchinson: living among nature is. All around the country. I just drove campground to campground and I'd stay for a week or two and then go to another one. And then after a year and a half of doing that, I decided to spend the next half year doing a hike. So I started on the Pacific Crest Trail. And
Diana Helmuth: Yeah. Wow. I want to read your book about the camping. Oh my god.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you.
Diana Helmuth: that sounds, I bet you've had some pretty [00:35:00] intense realizations about that. Did you ever read Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey?
Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
Diana Helmuth: I'm actually in the middle of it right now, and he is articulating so much. When I was a teenager, I felt like I would go into nature and I would have these experiences that really felt like quasi spiritual and profound.
Diana Helmuth: I didn't want to say the birds, it's not like the birds were talking to me. I just felt like I wanted to merge my atoms into the rock and become one with the rock. And wouldn't that be the best thing that could ever happen to anybody? And it was very romantic and very strong and very intense. And I don't know, it was probably just high on puberty hormones.
Diana Helmuth: And I started to lose that as I got older and it honestly breaks my heart, but I'm reading Edward Abbey right now and he's articulating it. And he's this like salty old dude and I'm like, okay cool. If he can do it, I can get it back. Yes. Yes. It wasn't just puberty, man. It was real. It was real. So yeah I'm loving it so far. It's like changing my [00:36:00] life in a really good way.
Josh Hutchinson: I had this one experience on the hike where I wasn't talking to birds, but the bees spoke to me, and I listened to them because bees tend to hang out around water sources.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: Really, you realize that instantly thinking about bees, you think the hive and hanging from the tree and whatever, but they're down where the water is. And so they led me to water on two occasions. And
Diana Helmuth: Thanks guys.
Josh Hutchinson: I don't know, just listening to nature was very helpful for me.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah. It's connection to land is something I tried to talk about a lot in the book and very quickly back, it's tricky. If you're white, do you live in America? Tricky is a mild way of putting it. There was definitely a part of the year where I also really had to work through a lot of white guilt. And I was reading a lot. I was reading a lot of authors that were helping me [00:37:00] process guilt and hidden racism and what it means to be an ally and what land back really means and all of these things. And not the book. And initially I turned in 160,000 word manuscript. They wanted 80,000 and they were like, buddy, we don't have the ink for this.
Diana Helmuth: And I was like, okay, so we cut a lot. But I do hope the sections of the book where I do write about that, they were really hard to write, because I was really afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I think there's an opportunity to do justice. And when you have that opportunity, you really don't want to fumble the ball.
Diana Helmuth: But ultimately, I hope some of the things I did in the book inspire other people, especially white people to like inquire a little bit internally around their own possible repressions and ancestry and complicated feelings about where I belong in the world and what my ancestors did to get me here. [00:38:00] Obviously that's a very personal journey, but I do think the more we talk about it probably the better. Probably the better. And maybe even my own hesitance is just white fragility, but probably is still working through, but I think it's a good thing to try, because ultimately it's all for justice and justice is always a good thing at the end of the day and should feel good, not hard.
Sarah Jack: We have an interview that's coming that we just had with a professor named Owen Davies. If you haven't read his book, America Bewitched, it's really good. It's so informative. And it really plainly shows that the trials ended, but the hunting increased, it continued. We don't have the story from 300 years ago and then, Oh, how did this keep, how come this is happening over in these 60 countries right now? America got it right [00:39:00] at some point. Maybe we got the legislation right and prosecution but it was still happening in communities, and he talks about how the mentality of witch fear within your family or within your community transferred over into, to indigenous cultures that were here. Their fear of witches was the outsider and it became the insider. And that's a tragedy.
Diana Helmuth: If anyone asks me if I'm a witch, I will say who's asking and why? Because the word witch means so many different things. It could mean a girl upstairs in her room playing with crystals and journaling about her shadow, or it could mean a woman being burned to death in Nigeria. I'm thinking about Martina Itagbor, this happened like a month ago, right? She was burned, I think, semi alive in the street [00:40:00] because people accused her of being a witch. And the thing that drives me crazy, I have read so much about her story, is, I'm like, I don't, I don't think she was. I don't think she would have said she was. I don't think, I think she would have said she was a Christian. And then of course, there are Christian witches, there's folk Catholicism and all that jazz, so that the, sometimes that either even the same word in English drives me bonkers because here I am, this, this girl in the West Coast, like who grew up where everyone could be whoever they wanted.
Diana Helmuth: And I'm writing a book about being a witch, and I feel pretty safe. There are some evangelicals who are going to come for me, and I'm a little nervous about them, but I'm not like, oh god, should I knock on wood if I say I'm not worried about being burned alive.
Diana Helmuth: And then of course in history, it's just anyone who was practicing a religion that wasn't the colonizer's religion was a witch. Any power that was not the colonizer's power was a witch, and of course in America that was Christianity, right? Indigenous practices for witchcraft and, I don't know. I know you [00:41:00] know. I don't need to tell you this.
Diana Helmuth: But that's also why I feel a little weird donning the name sometimes because I'm like, that's a lot to take on. It's a lot to compare myself to that doesn't feel entirely justified, which is why I think I feel more comfortable calling myself a neopagan because I am and I like neopaganism. I don't know if there is a more layered word in the English language. Maybe fuck. That's about it. It's witch and fuck. Those are the two most loaded words in English.
Josh Hutchinson: I think that's such a good point about how you define witch really depends a lot on your own background and perspective and understanding of what a witch is. But there's so many different versions of the witch over the thousands of years that witches have existed. I bring it down to like intentionality.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: The intentional [00:42:00] witch who wants to be practicing and is practicing. And then there's the like more reviled witch, that's the evil one who the actual person that's accused isn't usually practicing any magic or what they're doing is totally harmless, but they're being accused of harming somebody. It's put on people as a forced label, but then it's also available to embrace as a label, and that's, one of those is very disempowering and one is very empowering.
Diana Helmuth: And that to me is how the witch becomes the symbol of female empowerment, because in many parts of the world today and in the past, a witch is a woman who has too much power and is displeasing, right? So then you have this group of feminists who are saying that's exactly what we're going to fucking be, man, and we're going to wield our will. It's all about willpower. The connection there, it's just, [00:43:00] then I did have a lot of moments when I was writing this book, like, wow, I'm so privileged that I can just casually talk about how I'm trying to be a witch and there are women in the world who are literally still getting murdered in the street because other people are accusing them of being witches and they're like, "bro, I'm not." I just feel like sometimes they should be different words, but I guess they're not because the root of it is misogyny.
Sarah Jack: Yeah.
Diana Helmuth: Which is the collective struggle. There's probably a scholar who can articulate this a lot better than me, but I think we're under, we're all understanding each other, we're all understanding each other.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. And our listeners can relate and they would like to jump in the conversation right now. I'm sure when they're listening to this, it's a conversation they want to have with people. So in its conversations, they can listeners, you can have these conversations. We, one of our very early episodes that we recorded. We're what's the [00:44:00] crew that is doing the Last Witch film documentary about one of the gals that was exonerated late from the Salem Witch Trial era. And that was such an interesting conversation. But one of the themes of that conversation that came out was having the conversations, have conversations with new people, with people with different backgrounds, and go talk to them and find your connections and see the humanity in each other.
Diana Helmuth: I do love talking about this stuff. So I have, I'm on social media and stuff. If anyone wants to talk to me about this, if you are dabbling in witchcraft, I really like to hear from other people who are doing that. Because I, cause I genuinely think it's just fun to talk about this stuff. It's endless, it's boundless and it's important.
Sarah Jack: I'm excited for your book to be in hands. I think it's something that people who would embark on such a journey will enjoy, [00:45:00] but I hope those who have someone in their life that is starting a similar journey could find encouragement and guidance in your book and not guidance in witchcraft, but guidance and understanding what a journey is like for somebody and supporting them.
Diana Helmuth: That is also my hope. That is also my hope is that's what this book could be, not so much a guide, but more like a friend. Not Gandalf, but Sam. Or something like that. Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: It's not an instruction manual, but it's like a helping hand, a friend you can reach out to and support you while you're doing the same thing.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah. Hopefully, there's something that's relatable that will make you feel less stupid. If you ever did. Maybe you never did. But if you ever did, hopefully this book will just make you feel [00:46:00] like it's okay.
Josh Hutchinson: The book's message is also one of just tolerance and mutual respect for each other. And you can differ about how you go about your spirituality or faith or religion, but humans are humans and we should respect each other.
Diana Helmuth: Yes. That is something I think witchcraft will teach you very quickly is about tolerance and patience with yourself and with others. And the more tolerant you become of yourself, the more tolerant you become of others. The more patient you are with yourself, the more patient you can become of others.
Diana Helmuth: I, again, I feel simply lucky, privileged, grateful that I grew up in an area where there was a lot of tolerance. It wasn't perfect. Definitely not for everyone, but I think compared to most parts of the world, it was extraordinarily tolerant. And [00:47:00] that I got to just do this there without fear of literally anybody killing me because I was doing something different, hopefully tolerance will increase.
Josh Hutchinson: It was good for me, at least. I can only speak from my own experience, but reading it really answered my questions about what goes on in the practice. What's it like living that way? I just want everybody else to have that same kind of experience to realize this is an acceptable path.
Josh Hutchinson: And I'd say for anybody who still has any reservations, maybe just from upbringing or your own religious background, if you have reservations about witchcraft, read this book and a lot of that'll be taken away. You clear up misconceptions. You talk about the value you're getting out of what you're [00:48:00] doing. So back to that tolerance thing again.
Diana Helmuth: Yeah, it's normal. Well, depending on who you ask. Don Martin, who wrote The Dabbler's Guide to Witchcraft, I've heard him say this before on social media. He's, witchcraft really is mainstream at this point. Like it's not really what it was in the eighties and nineties. A lot of people are playing with this stuff now. It's just how deep you are in the water. And I think he's right.
Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

Mary Bingham: My heart breaks for men and women who suffer from Alzheimer's disease. It is cruel. In my dad's case. It has taken him from a vital, active, well-loved citizen of his community to a man who cannot remember to do what he needs to care for himself. Many, like my dad, live in a community where he will receive the quality care that he deserves so that [00:49:00] he can live out his remaining years with dignity. We, his family, love him and our mother. We are their number one advocates and will do anything to make sure the wonderful facility where they live continue to do their best. For our parents, we, on our part, do our best to educate ourselves on his disease for his sake and to be a listening presence for hers.
Mary Bingham: However, unlike my dad, many in other communities have not received quality care. Here is a recent quote from our friend, Dr. Leo Igwe, director and founder of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and I quote, "family members abandon them and make them suffer painful and miserable deaths. Advocacy for Alleged Witches urges the public to stop these abuses and treat people with dementia with care and compassion," end quote.
Mary Bingham: Sarah Jack says almost [00:50:00] every week in the following segment, End Witch Hunts News, that education is key. Spreading the word regarding ongoing witch hunts is also key. Please listen again to Dr. Leo Igwe in the episode "Deadly Witch Hunts of the 21st century" and Damon Leff in the episode "Witch Hunting in Modern South Africa." Then share these episodes on your social media channels. Visit our website, endwitchhunts.org, to discover how you can help to save a life.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update.
Sarah Jack: Advocacy for Alleged Witches has made a stand to help and rehabilitate elderly victims who have suffered from [00:51:00] violent witchcraft accusation attacks in Nigeria. Last year, hearts were shattered when Pa Justin was unjustly accused of witchcraft and subjected to a horrific act of violence. He was set a blaze in his own village in Nigeria. This month, Advocacy for Alleged Witches took a crucial step by accompanying Pa Justin back to his village. The community members asked Pa Justin to return.
Sarah Jack: Quote, "this is an exercise in social experimentation. AFAW will be closely monitoring the case of Pa Justin for some insights for future use," end quote, Dr. Leo Igwe.
Sarah Jack: AFAW advocates have also initiated an outreach and sensitization campaign within the community. AFAW is teaching that the elderly deserve dignity and care. Elderly members of society should be revered, cherished, and cared for, not unjustly accused of causing harm with witchcraft.
Sarah Jack: Witchcraft harm accusations are a deeply rooted problem, not only in many African communities, but in [00:52:00] nations across the globe, leading to devastating consequences for innocent individuals like Pa Justin. Witchcraft and sorcery accusation violence advocacies represent many countries and have an unwavering commitment to End Witch Hunts. They are taking legal action, educating community members and leaders, rehabilitating victims, and addressing how victims and communities can move forward.
Sarah Jack: Our organization, End Witch Hunts, also firmly believes that every individual and community can live free from fear and harm. We support advocacy organizations that are helping affected communities fight for justice against this gross violation of human rights through grassroots efforts. Please help spread awareness by talking to your circle of influence about modern witch hunt violence occurring across the globe. Please go to our show notes and see links to the advocacy groups that are actively working to stop the violence. Consider making a donation to AFAW, End Witch Hunts, or any of the advocacy groups listed in our show notes, and volunteer your voice to support their initiatives. Your conversations and [00:53:00] donations are making a significant difference in the lives of those affected by witchcraft accusations. Engage with local leaders and community members to advocate for policies and practices that protect the rights and dignity of vulnerable individuals like the elderly, widows, and children. Report suspicious cases. If you come across any incidents of witchcraft harm accusations, report them to the appropriate authorities and organizations like AFAW. Together, we can put an end to this injustice. Let us stand together, not just for Pa Justin but for all those who have suffered and continue to suffer due to witchcraft accusations.
Sarah Jack: Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch [00:54:00] hunting behavior. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts. org to learn about the projects.
Sarah Jack: To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Sign up today. Thank you for being a part of our work.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Sarah Jack: Find all of our episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends about the show.
Sarah Jack: We appreciate your support to end witch hunts, visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[00:55:00]

September 15, 2023

Irish Witch Trials with Andrew Sneddon

Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project

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Show Notes

This episode on Irish witch trial history takes a close look at the 1711 mass witch trial in Islandmagee through an illuminating conversation with Dr. Andrew Sneddon of Ulster University. We discuss what took place and learn about why there may have been fewer witch trials in Ireland than in other countries during the early modern period. We cover critical aspects of the witchcraft accusations, like Demonic obsession and possession, and address the similarities between Islandmagee and witchcraft accusations in Salem, and other New England witch trials. Dr Sneddon and his colleagues have launched a historic multimedia Islandmagee witch trial history commemoration project that opens September 9 in Northern Ireland. Find out what you can experience in person and what is available to experience online.

Dr. Andrew Sneddon

Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

The International Network

Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis

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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with Dr. Andrew Sneddon about witch hunts in Ireland.
[00:00:34] Sarah Jack: This episode is full of Irish witch trial information.
[00:00:40] Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn about the Islandmagee Witch Trials, Ireland's largest witch-hunt.
[00:00:48] Sarah Jack: There were eight women imprisoned and one man, a father and husband, likely executed.
[00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: The victims were Janet Carson, Janet Latimer, Janet Main, Janet Miller, Margaret Mitchell, Catherine McCalmond, Janet Liston, and Elizabeth Sellor. And the man who likely was executed was William Sellor.
[00:01:17] Sarah Jack: Dr. Sneddon and his colleagues have rolled out an exceptional exhibit with the Carrickfergus Museum that is hosting it September 9th through November 16th.
[00:01:33] Josh Hutchinson: This exhibit's got it all. It's got images, video, virtual reality, a video game, a graphic novel, an animation, and a play? It's got it all.
[00:01:52] Sarah Jack: A historic play from 1948, couple years before The Crucible.
[00:02:00] Josh Hutchinson: Before the Crucible, there was this play.
[00:02:03] Sarah Jack: Witches in Eden,
[00:02:05] Josh Hutchinson: Witches in Eden. Check it out.
[00:02:09] Sarah Jack: The Ulster University Research Project was led by Dr. Helen Jackson, Dr. Victoria McCollum, and Dr. Andrew Sneddon. There's also a range of objects from the Carrickfergus Museum's own collection, plus loaned items from the National Museums Northern Ireland and the National Library of Ireland and Belfast Central Library.
[00:02:30] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds exciting. Count me in.
[00:02:32] Sarah Jack: It's amazing what is available on the website to be able to look at and learn and enjoy. But, getting to go in person. It's a historic presentation of witch trial history, so what an incredible opportunity. If you can go, you need to go.
[00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: You do. And for those of you who can't, w 1 7 1 1 .org, w1711.org, is the place to go to check that out. They've got videos you can watch and images to look at and history to read up on, including all of the transcripts of the trial records from the Islandmagee Witch-Hunt.
[00:03:19] Sarah Jack: So spread the word. Let your people know that this is going on. Get them online looking. If they're in the area, send them over to go experience what's available.
[00:03:31] Josh Hutchinson: Be there.
One thing you'll notice at the exhibit and in this episode is how similar the Islandmagee witch trials were to many of the other witch trials that we've heard about, including those at places like Salem. And there's this element of a possible diabolical possession, and we talk about how there's a fine, flexible line basically between possession and bewitchment, basically comes down to who the victim blames. Does the victim say that the devil is affecting them directly, or do they blame it on a witch?
[00:04:24] Sarah Jack: And there's some great comparisons in the dialogue today, right out of the Salem history.
[00:04:32] Josh Hutchinson: Out of Salem, out of Connecticut, out of so many places, there are these cases with afflicted persons behaving very similar to how people behave when they're possessed by the devil, according to the set down traditions that we have from this time period.
[00:04:58] Sarah Jack: We are so happy to have Dr. Andrew Sneddon here today. He's the leading expert on the history of the Islandmagee Witch Trial of 1711 and has published widely on Irish witchcraft and magic. He has spent the last decade taking the untold story of the Islandmagee Witches and Irish witchcraft to a new, diverse, international audience. He has worked with numerous libraries, archives, museums, community, educational, and women's groups. He's the president of Ireland's oldest professional historical Society, Ulster Society for Irish Historical Studies.
[00:05:34] Josh Hutchinson: What sets the Irish Witch trials apart from others?
[00:05:38] Andrew Sneddon: I think the lack of them, probably, you start with a negative, Irish witchcraft. There was only a handful of trials now in the early modern period. Now there's a lot more trials after, ironically, the witch legislation is repealed. And they're involving witch accusation at some level, but they're not witch trials per se. But during the early modern witch hunts there, there's very few of them.
[00:06:07] Sarah Jack: The Witchcraft Act was enacted in 1586, but not repealed until 1821.
[00:06:14] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. So it's actually a copy of the Elizabethan Act of 1563, which I know that you've covered before, in other programs. This is part of the Elizabethan colonial rollout of legislation to, Uh, Ireland and did the roll out the Witchcraft Act as well. You're right, it's there right until the early 19th century. And it's almost, by that point, it rolls out of the imagination of the elites and it is just an administrative cleanup, I think Ian Bostridge said it was at one point, but that doesn't mean that popular witchcraft belief isn't everywhere, or that all elites don't believe in witchcraft anymore. But definitely of that legislative level after the Irish Parliament is away it's repealed.
[00:07:05] Josh Hutchinson: Can you quantify how many witch trials there were in Ireland?
[00:07:11] Andrew Sneddon: There was many accusations and formal accusations, but there were usually coming from Presbyterians and Presbyterians coming from Scotland with their own witchcraft place where, as you know, it was really bad. So they're coming after 1660, so most of them are not going to trial.
So there's loads of accusations that we know of, and some of them get to court, but don't go anywhere. So there's actually only two trials, two main trials. There's some trials before the 1586 Act and obviously ones after it, but there's only two main, one of Florence Newton in Youghal in Cork in 1661 and Islandmagee Witches in County Antrim in what is now Northern Ireland in Ulster in 1711, and this is nine people.
We don't really know what happened to Florence Newton, if she was executed or not. Some people think there are, but the, I've transcribed the, all the documents. It doesn't tell you what happened to her. And we know that the eight Islandmagee witches were not executed and, the, they missed out that, just, a legal nicety and on the day of the trial, and they were imprisoned under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act for four times in the pillory on Market Day, as well. And the one male witch we think might have been executed
[00:08:28] Sarah Jack: How do you think he would've been executed?
[00:08:32] Andrew Sneddon: Well, do you remember what we were talking about, the rolling out of the Irish witchcraft legislation was just a rolling out of the English witchcraft legislation? Again, by 1600 the older Gaelic systems of law, the Brehon law and systems of legal prosecution are being replaced at a county level in the 32 counties, at least with the English system.
So what you know about the English witch trials and how they were actually like governed, just put that in Ireland. So you've got justice of the peace, you've got magistrates, you've got the grand jury of 23 men. You've got the assize court. So all the things that are keeping witchcraft prosecution low in England, which it was quite hard to get somebody prosecuted for witchcraft in England, are operating in Ireland. So same legal administration, same courts, same law. And it's coming from Scottish Presbyterians. That's where the accusations are coming from. So it's very weird. It's a Catholic country with Presbyterians making the accusations, mainly that we know, and an English court system
[00:09:45] Josh Hutchinson: So it's a jumble of three different sets of beliefs and rules and traditions. Four.
[00:09:54] Andrew Sneddon: Four 'cause what we haven't talked about is a mass of the population. So you start getting Protestants coming in after the Reformation. Even before that Ireland has a colonial past from the 12th century, but they're in increasingly coming in after the 16th century and the plantation, and the people who are bringing them with them strong belief in witchcraft are usually coming from England.
So if you go back to Youghal, that is a puritan settler English place. It's in Cork. And so you will see familiars, and you'll see swimming. You'll see tropes that are in English witchcraft there. And then if you go up north, if you go to Islandmagee, you will see more Presbyterian and tropes.
But the fourth one is the mass of the population. The kind of, at this period, 80% of the population, they still Irish speaking, Irish Catholics, population and they are not making formal accusations. Now, in the past we would argue that it was because they didn't want to go to Protestant courts, but we found out that they did for other things, so they might have for witchcraft, it's still a permanent argument perhaps, but we've looked at, Ronald Hutton and myself, and we've looked at belief more, and we would suggest that they just, it's not that they didn't believe in witches. They just believed in a witch that was less threatening, that attacked agricultural produce, stole milk and butter.
Now, you get this in Poland and places where they do execute witches, but the threat level is higher there, because they have a higher demonic input to them. There is no demonic input to these beliefs. These witches are women. They shapeshift into hares to steal milk, and you get that more in the folklore, or they use a sympathetic magic to transfer the goodness from their own crops to elsewhere.
Now you will see this in Isle of Man, you'll see it in Wales, and you'll, as I said, you'll see in other countries. But when it starts to become a wee bit demonic or it becomes more of a problem, then that's when you start getting, I think, the prosecutions of witches. And you don't get that in Ireland, in this period, anyway. So the mass of the population have a low threat level of witchcraft. They have a witch figure, or it's nothing.
[00:12:16] Josh Hutchinson: So the people accused of witchcraft, generally, they weren't killing children and causing people to be sick, that kind of thing?
[00:12:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, I, and they weren't actually formally accusing them. They might have been doing it, probably don't know, because we just don't have their records. They're, they were an Irish speaking population, and we don't have, we don't know quite frankly. We know very little, we know about the beliefs usually transmitted through English, unfortunately, rather than, there is very little in Irish and it's mainly legal and political, and that has survived in manuscript form and nothing about witchcraft. It's usually transmitted through, as some people would say, the colonial gaze through English.
But let's go back to Islandmagee and let's get back to Youghal. What they're shared is, they're very similar, in fact, to Salem, the start of Salem. They're very similar to what you're getting in Lowland Scotland in the 1590s and the early 1700s. They are witchcraft trials involving demonic possession, where the main is demonic possession. Now, I know that there's controversy over whether there was demonic possession in Salem at the beginning, but definitely like the tropes are all there, the similarities, the fits, and the young people and blaming other people for that, blaming witches rather than blaming the devil himself, which would, indicate some sort of, sinfulness in their own parts. So they blame witches for their symptoms, so you get spectral evidence, although unlike Salem, it's not kicked out, it's the main one in Islandmagee, and it's the main one that's used in Youghal, as well, although witness testimony, as well.
And they actually in Islandmagee bring forth the vomited objects. That's why, we'll talk about it later, but that's why we've represented them in the VR. There's a material culture there. Yeah.
[00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: But the demonic was unusual for Ireland, even the type of possession that was occurring was that unusual?
[00:14:36] Andrew Sneddon: It wasn't unusual given who it's happening to, so you're getting demonic possessions in the late 16th century and early 17th century in England. And then lo and behold, you'll see it in Cork in 1661 among the same people, the settler populations. And then you're seeing it increasingly in the north of Ireland in Ulster from the people who are coming from Scotland.
I know that Brian Levack in a great book on witch-hunting in Scotland argued it was the Calvinist Network, the British Calvinist Network.
[00:15:09] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah and I were talking about demonic possession yesterday, and there was really like a fine line between what's demonic possession and what's bewitchment. So yeah, so sometimes hard to say.
[00:15:27] Andrew Sneddon: It is hard to say in some circumstances, but you can see when they're talking about the devil made me roll about or the devil will not get me, and when they're in their fits or their convulsions, as well, when, you know, the witches are visiting them, is it that's what's causing the convulsion or is it the devil or? It's much more clear cut when you go to certain places in Europe, when you're getting whole convents are demonically possessed.
But it is direct demonic possession, rather demonic possession via witchcraft. It starts to get a bit gray when you, when it's involving witchcraft, but I think in some clear cases that is clearly not your normal witch trial.
[00:16:09] Josh Hutchinson: It's easy for things to get out of hand. You mentioned Salem and Islandmagee starts with this possession or affliction, and then you bring in the spectral evidence. It's really easy for things to start getting outta hand.
[00:16:25] Andrew Sneddon: What I argue in my book, Possessed by the Devil, it was 2013, it was a long time ago I wrote. I'm writing a second edition as we speak, but what I suggested was what was key here. And especially when you're looking at 1711, within the grand scheme of things, it's a period of decline, perhaps not in belief, that's a tricky one, but definitely judicial skepticism and a drop in trials, different times, different places, different reasons, different rates of decline. We know that. But there definitely is trailing off. And what you need, a committed central actor. And again, Levack would argue they're following a cultural script here that's easy to learn. You need a central actor who's keeping it going all the way through that you can focus your attention on.
Now she is Mary Dunbar, she's 18. She's educated, she is visiting a family where there has been demonic obsession and the matriarch has died in suspicious circumstances. Now, she is as I said, educated, biblically sound. The male authors of the sources tell you that, at pains, that she's good looking and she's trustworthy and all this stuff, and they're always demoniacs, demonically-possessed people are always showing themselves to be paragons of virtue, and I think she does that.
Contrast against the eight women that she accuses, first of all, who are tried at 31st of March, 1711. They are visually different. They're disabled. Two of them have lost an eye, one has fell on a fire and is burnt down one side, she has a crooked hand, one has, in the parlance of the time, a club foot. They're a small pox scarred. And the idea that everybody was small pox scarred, , I don't think is true when you read diaries at how people are affected by their visual change.
So they'll look different, but they're also act different. They challenge patriarchal norms, they drink strong alcohol, wine, they smoke, they resist arrest. They don't follow the prosecution process. They try to evade it at every turn. And even when they have no idea what's going on at the trial, they still plead guilty and deny their innocence, right to, so there, there is resistance and there's agency, but these are marginal women. They're poor. They have dubious reputations. Some of them could have been practicing at some level popular magic. The contrast is really palpable between believable witches, marginalized people, and the believable accused. So they're believable witches and she's a believable witness. And it's a heady combination.
Then Mary Dunbar dies three weeks after the first trial. We don't know why. And it took me going through every newspaper in 1711 in Ireland, and I found it. And basically, yeah she died and, but she'd already been accusing a final witch, William Sellor. Janet Liston was his wife, and his daughter was Elizabeth Sellor. Basically, it went from a misdemeanor to a felony, because she had died in the time that she had accused him. And he went to trial in 1711. Like we do a lot of the time in Scottish trials, we are assuming that he was executed.
[00:19:58] Josh Hutchinson: So the eight women, they're tried first, and then Mary Dunbar dies, and then William Sellor is tried with the enhanced charges?
[00:20:08] Andrew Sneddon: Yes. And that's it. There is no more under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act. There's one, an interesting one, in 1807 where the person could have been prosecuted for witchcraft. Mary Butters, she's a cunning person. She's a magical practitioner or a service magician, if you want to use that parlance, and she tries to cure a bewitched cow, just like we were talking about there, and ends up killing everybody in the house. Her magic goes wrong and she kills them by carbon monoxide poisoning by burning sulfur in a house to where everything has been sealed up.
She could be done under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act, but isn't. And it just shows you there's no, at a judicial level, anyway, by that time to try people for witchcraft under the witchcraft act, so it's a dead letter in that sense. Doesn't mean belief has went anywhere.
[00:21:06] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means, that she was a cunning woman?
[00:21:12] Andrew Sneddon: If you look at the main historians, but the parlance, maybe it's changing. Some people don't like cunning folk because it's, it is anglophone. But and I want to widen the, the parameters of it, but there are among many magical practitioners, and I'll no go through them all, there's so many different ones and the borders between them are very different. But a fortune teller, for example. But a cunning person, I would say, is a multifarious magical practitioner. That is somebody who's commercial who usually charges money or goods in kind and usually perform more than one magical service. Now, this can be thief detection. This can be a counter magic, which is bread and butter a lot of the time. And that means detecting, thwarting, or bringing witches to the authorities. But they also can do some magical healing using herbs or spells or whatever that is not caused by supernatural means, that are natural means. And there's some divination in there, as well, as I said, lost or stolen goods, but also thief detection and that sort of thing. So they're remarkably consistent, cunning folk, that particular type, I think, from the early modern period, right through in the modern period. And you get 'em all over Europe, and you get them in America as well, right up to the late 19th century, possibly beyond.
[00:22:35] Josh Hutchinson: When people were accused of witchcraft in these few cases in Ireland, how were they tested?
[00:22:45] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, this is the thing, spectral evidence, by this time, they haven't used it after, I think, is it 1655 in England? And obviously, it's overturned in Salem and this is 1711 we're talking about. So they know there is ultimately question, so they, they do blind tests, almost pseudoscientific the, because a demonic possessed person will get worse when the person approaches them or touches them.
And they actually did that in some trials. I think they did that in the Bury St. Edmonds, one in 1645 in England. And they get the person to touch them. That could be said, oh, they're just seeing the person that they want to get executed and acting up. So they get them and bring them in silently and get them to come in behind them so they can't see it. They also get a lineup. They bring 30 people, from everywhere, 30 women from everywhere and line them up. And she has to pick out the witch. She says she's never met them before. She only has met them when they attack her spectrally.
[00:23:48] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of that sounds so familiar with Salem and other witch trials that we've talked about on the show before. In Salem, they did the touch test, the exact same thing. I wish they would've done a lineup, because that could have eliminated some of them who, the witnesses who were accusing didn't, like you said, they'd never met a lot of these people that they were naming beforehand, and so they would name somebody in some far off town and have no idea who they were when they saw them, except that they were the only one that was brought in. So by process of elimination, they're like, oh, that's Goody Sandwich or whoever it was.
[00:24:39] Andrew Sneddon: The problem there is that Mary Dunbar says she had never met them before, but she's able to pick them out every single time. Every single time.
[00:24:47] Josh Hutchinson: So she knew them somehow?
[00:24:49] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I argue in the book that she's got an accomplice.
[00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We know in some of the testimony in Salem, there's accounts given by like defense witnesses that say we heard that afflicted accuser ask somebody, "who is that lady who's up there, who's the prisoner at the bar?" And they would get information from the crowd. But yeah, she must have known somehow. You don't get a hundred percent right.
[00:25:19] Andrew Sneddon: No, and you, the public spectacles. The house was absolutely full, and you could argue if it's demon possession case. It's a chance to see the devil in action. You are basically touching the other world through this person. And yeah, there's no tv, This is something that's happening in a community in a peninsula that is eight miles long with 300 people in it. You can see why everybody's interested in it. And you're right, there could be all sorts of things that, that are happening that are culturally transmitting this to her. The idea that is a cultural script, that she's actually following a script, but she's also reacting like every good actor to the audience.
This is why I think their symptoms change in demonic possession cases. Now not all of symptoms are simulated. They can start off simulated and then become unsimulated. They can be suffering from some illness. Now, I couldn't, I went through all the types and I couldn't see, and they usually would bring this up at some point. And they did before in other occasions in Ireland, but they didn't, here. I think it was simulated to some extent in Mary Dunbar's case.
[00:26:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I have some theories about that too, about how in Salem, at least, the afflicted persons, there might've been some illness, there might've been just a genuine fear that they were bewitched and like you alluded to, with the touch test, they get near the person that they think is afflicting them, they're gonna act out somehow just because the fear is gonna overwhelm them.
[00:27:08] Andrew Sneddon: They know what's expected culturally, there's a cultural script. They know how to react in a demonic possession case. They know where it is and that's when, we've always tried to, I've tried to do is that the idea of these people live in a magical moral universe where spiritual essences are constantly interfering in your world, everybody believes that some sense, not everybody, but a lot of people, the accused and accusers would believe in witches and witchcraft and the possibility of demonic possession. But then again, you've got quite a lot to gain. We've talked about the forces, the patriarchal forces, that brought the eight women to the fore, those patriarchal forces were also constraining Mary Dunbar. She's in a tight, clerical family. She's not considered in Ireland an adult. Doesn't matter if she's 40 until she's married. Even then, I understand the agency, I understand resistance, and understand the ways that you can overturn patriarchy and the forces that cut through patriarchy, but it still limits your options. And so you could see it in that sense as well.
It's a reaction against are very strict, gendered, patriarchal upbringing. You are able to swear in the minister, punch 'em, spit on them, rip up bibles, cavort, and roll about in beds with young men without any damage to your reputation. You can move from the margins of adult attention to the center stage of a drama of your own creation. Now, this is James Sharpe who put words to this and Philip Almond, when he was studying mainly English demonic possessions. But I think it's, I think it's a good explanation. I don't think it's total explanation in all demonic possessions, but I think it works here.
[00:29:00] Josh Hutchinson: It works in so many cases that we've heard about of this kind of thing it's these young women who have the pressures to get married and be good Christians and good mothers and wives, and they're acting out against the system that's squeezed them into that role.
[00:29:24] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. And so that's why, accuser and accused, and putting pejorative spins on both, I think is a mistake. I think you have to understand the situation they're in.
A community itself is under pressure because the Presbyterians are being basically turned against, they, they help to defeat the the Catholic uprising and they help bring William of orange to power and then they're abandoned by the Church of Ireland.
They're trying to shut down their schools. They're trying to enforce old laws. After 1704, they force 'em out of local government. So they feel that they're their whole raison d'etre is under threat. Their whole religion and religious freedom are under threat. And that's the Presbyterians in 1711. Now, you get economic downturn and then you get famine, and then they all go, like whole communities from where I'm sitting, just go to America. Just, we're talking a minister and 300 families, they just go to America.
There's pressures there and communities under crisis. All these things make whatever problems you've got worse. We've all lived through covid. If you were having anything, any problems in Covid, the wider situation made them worse, and I definitely think you've gotta look at that when you're looking at Islandmagee, as well.
[00:30:51] Josh Hutchinson: We've heard about this almost formula of this confluence of all these tensions that has to occur to put the pressure on the community so that they start seeing witches, things like the warfare and the crop failure and religious conflict.
[00:31:13] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a whole load of things. Not all the time, but it's a whole load of things going wrong at the same time when you get a mass trial.
And this is a mass trial, nine people. So it is.
[00:31:26] Josh Hutchinson: Out of a community of 300, that's a lot of people. We've talked about the demonic possession. In Islandmagee, there's also a talk about a demonic boy. What can you tell us about that character?
[00:31:42] Andrew Sneddon: He is part of the demonic obsession. It's like it's a precursor, it's where the demon, and you'll see it quite a lot of the time in Presbyterian Ulster, where they get the elders from the Presbyterian church and they get a minister to come and investigate instances of this, where a demon is basically wrecking the house. Fast forward 150 years and it's a poltergeist, but at this point it's demonic obsession, and the demonic boy seems to be at the core of this. And he a appears to old Mrs. Haltridge. Now old Mrs. Haltridge owns the house. She's the widow of a Presbyterian minister and that's where Mary Dunbar visits, 'cause she is the niece of Anne Haltridge. After that, she's died in mysterious circumstances and that's when it all kicks off.
The demonic boy visits old Mrs. Haltridge and threatens her and grabs a Turkey cock and tries to kill it with a sword and smashes windows. But do you remember I was talking an accomplice? One of the persons who see this is the servant, Margaret Spear, and she is around a lot when this happens before me comes and then she's around that when a lot it happens, 'cause this behavior continues. They only, I think, Mary Dunbar only sees the demonic boy, once or twice. Now the demonic boy is obviously, a demon and it's recognized sometimes it's called a spirit. And this is the popular imagination. Sometimes specters and demons, there's a porous boundary between them, they're always coming up against it. You've mentioned it already, the unstable meanings all the time when you're dealing with witchcraft. And I think that is definitely one of them. The demonic boy. He is dressed in black. He's got everything that tells you he's a demon.
[00:33:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like he was a little prankster or something to me.
[00:33:48] Andrew Sneddon: Or it's fantasy.
[00:33:50] Josh Hutchinson: Either one.
[00:33:51] Andrew Sneddon: The demonic body wasn't seen by many, but a lot of the witnesses saw the other stuff, right? So they saw a big bolster pillow about two foot high walk across the floor of the kitchen. They saw a petticoat just twirling. This is like horror movie stuff, twirling in the middle of the floor. You've got lithobolia everywhere, getting pelted with stones and other classic demonic obsession possession thing. Cats, there's some demonic cats in there. If you wanna see something similar, look at the trial of Jane Wenham in 1712, a year later in Hertfordshire loads of people have written loads of good stuff on it. But you can see some of the politicization happens in 1711 in Islandmagee, as well. You see it becoming a party political tool between whig and Torries, only it's reversed in Ireland. The Torries want to let the Islandmagee witches off, and the Presbyterians want to get her prosecuted.
[00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have a couple of these stone throwing demon cases in New England, also. There's one we're looking at in Massachusetts right now, the Elizabeth Morse case, with her grandson that comes to live with her and then all the weird stuff starts happening with the bed moving in the night and stones coming in the chimney and all these things. So that sounds like it was the demonic obsession playbook.
If you want to talk about the 19th century, what happens then as far as witchcraft accusations?
[00:35:27] Andrew Sneddon: They don't end. I have argued elsewhere that witchcraft belief, there is people who publicly deny it and then what they do actually suggests that they do believe in it, right? So they say they don't believe in witches, but they will put up witch stones to protect their houses or they will maybe accuse somebody of witchcraft or they will not go somewhere or something, it'll affect their behavior.
And then there's people who say they believe in witchcraft and this and accuse people of witchcraft and follow through it even to the court, and you're getting this in the 19th century in Ireland. So by the late 19th century we were talking about kinda polarization between Gaelic Irish Catholic belief and Protestant settler belief. I think they come together in a kinda perfect storm.
So the Protestant belief, you get more of this kind of dairy stealing seeping into that. And you can see it even when it goes to some, go to the church courts, the Presbyterian church courts. You can see it by the late 1700s and again, I think on the other side, Gaelic Irish communities, what you'll see is by the 19th century definitely is witches can harm human beings more. And itself, the act of, especially after the famine in the 1640s that stealing produce and in rural areas becomes a bigger problem and something, especially among the communities where these accusations are happening.
So people are accusing, again, accusing their neighbors, usually co-religionists. There's usually not Catholic v Protestant, it's usually Catholic against Catholic, and they're accusing them of killing cows, stealing butter, stealing, even transforming into hare, sometimes, but usually just stealing butter, using the evil eye on their cows, using charms, buried on their land, things like that, and they're accusing each other, but they can't really take them to court because after 1821, there's no act to do it by, and whether they want to anyway, but what they take things into their own hands, so you'll get accusers just like in England and just like in 19th century America accusers grabbing them and swimming them and, you know, beating them up. But in Ireland, it's usually rather than mobs doing it as an England, in some places in America in the 19th century, in Ireland, it's usually individuals.
So what you'll do is you'll think somebody has been stealing the milk produce from your cows using sympathetic magic. And you'll get cases where they shoot them, they hit them with shovels, they hit them with reaping hooks. There's one murder. And Will Pooley again is doing some brilliant work in France showing that this is happening in France as well.
And so you're getting accusers taking it out that way, but they're also using the lower courts that are rolled out after 1840s, the petty sessions. And so what they're doing is they can't prosecute somebody for magically stealing their milk or their butter or killing the cow, but what they can do is they can do them for theft. They're, you know what they think they've magically stole their milk, but they're just doing them for theft.
The people who are accused are also using the law to accuse their accusers of slander. And sometimes they're finding themselves in hot water, because what they're doing is reacting to the accusation by beating up the accuser. So they're doing the same thing and or slander in the accuser, so you're getting flooded after 1840s up to the end of the 19th century of these accusations, usually in lower courts, but sometimes they go to the higher courts, like the quarter sessions or the assizes when some serious, when they're slashing people, and it's not just like a factional violence, this is violence it targeted to, against something you think has bewitched you or the other way around. And so you're getting that right up until the end of the 19th century. I think that the last one that I came across, it tails off in the 20th century, and the last one's in 1946. The last big one is 1927, so it's tailing off definitely in the 20th century. Courts are just turning their backs, especially when the island of Ireland separates into Northern Ireland and the Republic in 1921, but the belief's still there and you're still getting it in rural areas right up to the end of the 20th century, belief, especially in witches who can harm cattle or steal produce and occasionally harm humans.
[00:40:15] Josh Hutchinson: 1927, huh?
[00:40:18] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And you'll see as well, if you look at the material culture, if you look at some of the objects that survive, and this is a real one, a witch stone, hag stone. You'll see these in museums in Northern Ireland and they're hung in buyers or sometimes wee ones around the necks of the cows to protect them.
So they, they do take it seriously. They're used against fairies sometimes, as well, and also, yeah, I think it's important to look at doubt and to look at saying one thing and doing another. But I think it's very important to understand as well, in the Irish context, at least, people are believing in witches, they're frightened of them, and they're doing something about it for a good party in the 19th century.
[00:41:00] Sarah Jack: I don't understand, like that's less than a hundred years ago. How did so many of us forget and we don't understand what these protective things are just a century later? How did that happen?
[00:41:17] Andrew Sneddon: Just like cultural memory and social memory, there is a great book by Guy Beiner called Social Forgetting. And I've argued in a book in 2022 called Representing Magic that you've got all this kind of popular belief, right? But the books and sermons written by male elites are saying they're using enlightenment rhetoric. They're in the 19th century.
But the idea that we are enlightened elites. We are enlightened. This land's enlightened. We are moved beyond the ignorance and the bigotry of the witch hunts. Look how great we are, and they use it as an example to place distance between them and themselves. And it's easier in, in Ireland 'cause there's so few of them anyway, it's the same rhetoric you'll see in England and you'll see in North America as well.
The historians will talk about historic witch trials in the 19th century and the antiquarians, and completely ignore the fact that all this is happening around them. And you'll see it in the cultural representations, as well. Ian Bostridge and Owen Davies were saying that witchcraft is history, basically. And it's the same thing. It's, it is when you deal with witchcraft, you deal with the historic example. So when the 19th century, they love talking about Islandmagee, they love talking about Youghal. They don't discuss the fact it's happening all around them. And what they also do, they, and invest it with gender ed language as well. By the 19th century, the end of the 19th century, is weaponized by the newspapers. And so what they start talking about, again, some of the same newspapers as reporting the crimes at another part of the newspaper are saying, "oh, there is some belief, but we're past that." But still, it is still there.
And the historians, as well. And the newspapers are gendering it just as female. Now as we, we saw 1711, there was a male witch, but also in the 19th century, a lot of these people who are accused are actually male, as well. I think it's something like 40%. I can't remember the figures off top of my head, but I think Will Pooley's finding this in France as well, that there's a far greater proportion of men, so their gendering it as female. They're just saying it is something that's passed and that has been reproduced in newspapers and then it's been reproduced in culture and poetry and paintings and drama. And I think that's where it is, and you'll find that in Ireland.
And you know what they'll say why are you doing witchcraft? And I was told by hundreds of people, even historians, what are you doing, because there wasn't any in Ireland. I think part of that is a problem that it was remembered at a local level 'cause people in Islandmagee for two centuries after it remembered it, but there's a discursive silence around it as well.
When we are saying about this kind of, almost discursive silence, that's, if you're looking at kinda official sources, you're looking at sermons, you're looking at male elites. But if you take on board folklore and material culture, if you go beyond the kind of, you don't know, almost the official to the vernacular, whether it is in Irish or English, if you go to the folklore, then you will find, I think this more and more, and that's where I have went as well to learn about witchcraft. And it's something that Guy Beiner argues as well, that when he was talking about the 1798 rebellion it's forgotten in certain spheres, but kept alive in others in different ways, in, in different contexts. And I think it, it works for the Islandmagee trial as well.
[00:45:00] Josh Hutchinson: Talking about the material culture, what were some other forms of protective magic that might have been employed?
[00:45:08] Andrew Sneddon: The big thing you know, would be, especially, and in Ireland would be protecting the churn. So you would put hot embers into the churn when you're churning. You would maybe have something roundabout the churn. You would make sure that people didn't say things or do things, you wouldn't have anybody looking at the churn. With children as well you have a lot of, especially when they were young, a lot of rituals and sometimes objects used to protect against witchcraft.
But just like in everywhere else, you get written charms are held close to the body, especially in soldiers. You get personal amulets all those sorts of protective magic. And you get, it's used in Islandmagee, as well. She first goes to a Catholic priest who, she's a Presbyterian, but it just shows you the cross boundaries of popular magic, because he's meant to have the best charm. So she goes to him, it doesn't work, and then she goes to a Scottish man, and he has one that works, but it makes her worse. So they cut it off, and it's a magical string that she uses , but they also use herbs as well. Especially this is something that's probably argued more by Ronald Hutton. He would say that witchcraft belief wasn't taken up as much because the Gaelic Irish believed in fairies and a lot of the things that fairies did were blamed on witches but use a lot of vervain and other plants were used, foxglove, all the kind of stuff, and mountain ash as well. You all the ones you see elsewhere would be used either to cure or as protection, but they're limitless. I could go all day on the different types.
[00:46:50] Josh Hutchinson: The commemorative project and exhibition, can you just explain that in a nutshell to begin with?
[00:46:57] Andrew Sneddon: This is a commemorative an a memorialization. The first plaque to Islandmagee Witches was erected this year. That was something outside the project, something we were involved in, but something that was outside this project. No. And we have taken it forward with this exhibition.
It's the first exhibition of an Irish witchcraft trial. And it's happening here. As far as I know, it's the first one. And it comes out of a project called the Islandmagee Witches a creative and digital project. The website is, and I'm sure you can put it up in yours, w1711.org, and all the outputs are there.
And what we wanted to do was to take this to another level. I have a practitioner of public history. I've done TV and podcast, but it mainly radio and TV and talks. And I took it all after it broke in 2013. I took this everywhere. I was talking about it a lot. This is creative collaboration of public history where the historian is actually helping to create a history as well.
So the outputs are that, so we are wrote with a local graphic artist from Derry, Londonderry, a graphic novel about the trial. We also wrote with it, the project I'll say is led by me and Dr. Victoria McCollum, but it involves a whole load of people from Ulster University as well, and a lot of funding from Connected and AHRC and things like that.
But the VR was with Dr. Helen Jackson. And that makes you become demonically possessed. And we're trying to get across what it's like to be demonically possessed, but also what it's like to be accused in a kind of way to deal with intangible cultural heritage in a very immediate and immersive environment and let people engage with the story that might not otherwise engage with it.
So the VR there, but we've also got a prototype of a video game. Again, it's a kind of serious video game where you go into the shoes of the accuser. And it's just trying understand the moral choices and why people accused, not just to understand the accused, but understand the accuser and why these things happen. So that's the video game.
And then there's a bespoke animation. We got a local all women animation studio in Belfast to create a 14 minute animation, which I scripted on it. And that is actually in the VR app, but I think you can access that through the website, as well. And the graphic novel, as well. And we got local people, and we got staff and students Adam Melvin and Brian Coyle and Sabrina Minter. They were working on the computer game. And Adam was working on the score, so he has come up with an original score for the VR.
Lastly no, we're doing a lot of workshops as well. So we're doing creative writing workshops, we're doing printing workshops, but we're also putting on a play called Witches in Eden. And this is produced by Dr. Lisa Fitzpatrick, Ulster University, Victoria and myself.
And it's involving staff and students, and Witches in Eden was written in 1948, just before The Crucible, and it actually contains a lot of the tropes of The Crucible, by Olga Fielden, who was a Belfast based playwright. And it's never been put on since I think 1951. And I wrote about that in Representing Magic, the 22 book, as a kind of idea of exploring the cultural representations and the afterlife of the Islandmagee trial. But, Victoria had a great idea. Why don't we put it on and, so it'll be on, in the Riverside Theatre at the end of October in Coleraine in Northern Ireland. The exhibition is in Carrickfergus, and that is on the ninth, and it runs to the 16th of November, 2023. There's a big launch in the 16th.
The great thing about it, so the exhibition space right, is across the road from where the trial happened. Touching distance.
[00:51:10] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
Wow.
[00:51:13] Andrew Sneddon: So, yeah. And you can see more about it on the website. We're working with other people who work in memorialization, as well, the University of Highland and Island working with RAGI and other people who, who have worked on, how to memorialize in different ways, not just through plaques, but through digital and creative technologies and storytelling.
[00:51:34] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a creative way to present the story to this generation of people. Use all the technology that's available and it's like you've covered every form of media that you can, basically.
[00:51:53] Andrew Sneddon: It is been quite thorough, but it was organic. We didn't go right. We're doing everything right,
[00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: yeah,
[00:51:58] Andrew Sneddon: but, but we work in a university with such talented people like Brian and Adam and Sabrina and Victoria and Helen and Shannon Devlin and the history department, as well, and Lisa Fitzpatrick, all these people who are so good at what they do. And if they come together and we work as a team, it's amazing what you can achieve.
[00:52:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm hoping it serves as an example for other locations where there were witch trials.
[00:52:25] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And so you don't go down the Disney World of war, aspect, you know that some places are, over commercialization, certain that with respect, and the historical aspects we respect as well, that there were real people with descendants that are still around.
[00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Speaking of the commercialization, you were recently in Salem actually, weren't you?
[00:52:51] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I've been before and to be honest, the first time I went I was more kinda whoa than the second time, yeah, I was doing a kind of tour, so we went, Victoria and I went Steilneset Monument, monument in Vardo in Norway in winter, which was mad at the Arctic in winter.
[00:53:12] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
[00:53:13] Andrew Sneddon: and that was absolutely beautiful and, in the snow and in it, so well done, just look it up if you don't know about it, is to 91 people executed in that region, Finnmark in the 17th century, mostly women, some indigenous people as well, and then going to Salem as well, where the history, you've got the kinda big set pieces of the memorialization, but the history otherwise is fighting to get out.
[00:53:45] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:53:46] Andrew Sneddon: So you're, you are looking for the history, and I love them in memorials. And I and I like the most recent one, is it 2016? That was erected. I didn't see that the first time I went, but I've seen that and I think the all got their, the all get their they're good points.
I do think the memorialization is very good and I do like them, and they're very important, especially in that context, you've got a statue to Samantha from Bewitched.
[00:54:13] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yes. There's a statue of her, just like a block or two away from the first memorial to the witch trial victims. Yeah, it's interesting juxtaposition there, the history and the modern.
[00:54:31] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. That's why I haven't tried, a disentangle, and we just discussed it there, the kind of, what happened and the way it's been represented and the way it's used, and I think that you can be creative with it. And I think you can, I don't think you, you can, you have to say the historians just know the the story because we've read the documents, now on the website, I've put every document for the Islandmagee trial. I've digitized them. They're all there for you. But it's more than that. And we've included them in the exhibition as well.
But it's more than that, and that's why we've got the workshops, the storytelling, and the printmaking. People can make their own histories, and we shouldn't try to have ownership completely as historians of these stories. So that is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying sometimes the representations that you know are not all positive, and and the commercialization aspect that are not all positive.
[00:55:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, but a lot of those attractions, they do get people's attention. It's just somebody has to come in and say, set the record straight at some point.
[00:55:40] Andrew Sneddon: The thing is as well, what happens is what, 2,500 executing Scottish history and 38 in American history, but most popular consciousness would say, what's the big witch trial? What do they think of Salem And that, I was talking to somebody the other day when we were actually launching something and yeah, they were absolutely gobsmacked. And I says, yeah, there was more people executed in one car park in Perth in Scotland than the whole of Salem. And that has only been righted now in the last two years with this new kind of campaign. And for the, I didn't, I'm Scottish I'm from Glasgow. I did not hear of any of this growing up. I didn't know there was any witches in Scotland. But I think that's changing as well. That kind of, and then that's the power of representation. That's the power of cultural representation and what a leaves out and what puts in.
[00:56:32] Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable that you can grow up and not hear about these things. And there were just so many in Scotland. We hear that from people in places like Connecticut in the US where there were witch trials and people just don't know that they happened. You grow up, you go to school there, and they never talk about it. But for a whole nation like Scotland to just turn its back on the memory. That's really something.
[00:57:03] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. Again, forgetting, so it's we're putting it behind us. It was a bad time. We were one of the first enlightened countries in Europe. We were the home of moral philosophers and Adam Smith, Glasgow University, and Edinburgh University, and St. Andrews. We're not all about witches. The people who were writing history in the 20th century perhaps, no interest in that either, 'cause it's ordinary people.
[00:57:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw that with Connecticut. A lot of the antiquarians in the 19th century wanted to show the state in a good light, and so they would poke fun at Massachusetts and say that we never had anything like that here. They did.
[00:57:47] Andrew Sneddon: That's exactly what was happening in Ireland, yeah. Putting distance between I, Owen and Davis does it brilliantly in America Bewitched, is putting distance between, the past and ourselves, and using it as an oppositional tool regionally, as well. look at.
[00:58:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. They did that in the States with Salem before the American Civil War. The southern states were poking fun at the northern states for having witch trials. And yeah, you just use it as this political thing later on, and then today, of course witch-hunt has become just a real political metaphor that's used, I would say way too often.
[00:58:30] Andrew Sneddon: You've had Marion Gibson on talking, and she brilliantly showed the kind of misogynistic aspects of The Crucible. And arguably, the Crucible brought forth that idea of the witch-hunt as politic, getting rid of your rivals, and it's used a lot of the times, I think, misogynistically today by men who you know are accused, of all sorts, but accusing his accusers using that, which is doubly insulting, I, I don't like modern appropriation of the word witch-hunt, because as your whole podcast shows, it's so complex even to appropriate it at all. It's so reductive. But to appropriate it in that way is particularly bad, I think.
[00:59:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And there's still people dying in literal witch hunts. And then you're gonna use that as a political thing and say, no, I'm a victim here. You're not.
[00:59:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And it's usually the worst type of people who are using it.
[00:59:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes,
[00:59:30] Andrew Sneddon: I'm.
[00:59:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. The ones who are guilty as sin. Yeah.
So I definitely encourage everybody to go check out that exhibit. I really wish that I could be there to see it myself. It sounds amazing. So many different aspects coming together to really immerse people in this.
[00:59:56] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely.
[00:59:57] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

[01:00:07] Mary Bingham: For me, the most important reason to memorialize is to remember. We memorialize a loved one or an event through the preservation of memories, perhaps sharing stories, looking at a scrapbook, listening to a compilation of that person's favorite music, erecting a burial monument. Creating a celebration of life ceremony.
No matter what we do to memorialize a person, group, or people and or event, we keep their legacy alive. When I first started to roam Essex County in search of my ancestors, I looked for their burial sites to visit their graves, to pay my respects, and to thank them for their decisions which caused me to be alive today. I still do that from time to time. Then they wanted to find where they lived, how they lived, where they walked, discover their experiences, funny, odd, different, wonderful, and sad. It was during this part of my journey, which led me to stand where some of my ancestors were hanged to death in the area of Proctor's ledge at Salem Mass in British America, 1692. A simple, beautiful, and important memorial was built and dedicated at that site on July 19th, 2017, so that the area would no longer be lost to history.
Now, descendants can visit from time to time to pay their respects. Another beautiful memorial was dedicated 25 years prior to Proctor's ledge in 1992, and is located in Salem abutting the Charter Street Cemetery. 20 beautiful stone benches are attached to a stone wall lined with beautiful trees and historic homes for descendants and many visitors to sit and contemplate the lives of those whose names are engraved on each of those benches who were executed in 1692.
However, my favorite memorial to the victims at Salem is the monument that was also erected in 1992 and is located on Hobart Street in current day Danvers, Mass. The beautiful life-sized stone monument is in two parts. The front displays the Book of Life with a replica of the iron shackles that accused would have worn while in prison. The back displays the Puritan Minister. The one thing that stands out is that this is the only monument that lists the 25 names of the people who died as a result of the Salem Witch Hunts that year, the 20 that were executed and the five who died in jail. Not only that, but also engraved are the powerful statements that the accused said during their pretrial examinations. It is a wonderful way to contemplate their lives, offer a glimpse into their horrifying experience, and share lessons on how we can learn from history.
And here are all their names. Infant daughter of Sarah Good died in prison before June. Sarah Osborne died in the Boston Prison May 10th, Bridget Bishop hanged June 10th, Roger Toothaker died in the Boston Prison June 16th, Sarah Good hanged July 19th, Susanna Martin hanged july 19th. Elizabeth Howe hanged July 19th. Sarah Wildes hanged july 19th. Rebecca Nurse hanged July 19th. George Burroughs hanged August 19th. George Jacobs, Sr. hanged August 19th. Martha Carrier hanged August 19th. John Proctor hanged August 19th. John Willard hanged August 19th. Giles Corey died under torture September 19th. Martha Corey hanged september 22nd. Mary Esty hanged September 22nd, Mary Parker hanged September 22nd, Alice Parker hanged September 22nd, Ann Pudeator hanged September 22nd, Wilmot Redd hanged September 22nd, Margaret Scott hanged september 22nd, Samuel Wardwell hanged September 22nd, Ann Foster died in prison December 3rd. Lydia Dustin died in prison March 10th, 1693. Rest in peace. You'll never be forgotten.
May those who suffered a similar fate at Ireland in 1711 also rest in peace. Thank you.

[01:05:08] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:05:10] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[01:05:20] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch-hunt memorials and commemorations serve as enduring tangible reminders. They provide comfort and solace and education. We can touch the cool, solid surface of a monument like we are reaching out and connecting with witch trial victims of the past, even though they're no longer physically present. Tributes like historical fiction, coffees named in honor of a witch trial victim, stone and metal monuments, and arts that teach and commemorate, like Salem by Ballet Des Moines, the play Prick, the play The Last Night, the play Saltonstall's Trial, the play Witches in Eden, the Echoes of the Witch photographic documentary, and multimedia museum and online exhibits like w1711.org, are a lasting witness of the impact these lives had on the world. You can listen to previous episodes to learn more about each of these projects. I hope the w1711.org project brings you to reflection, contemplation, and advocacy action.
September brings cooler temperatures, crisp, warm colors in nature, and a season of anticipated festivities, like fall festivals that hold meaningful rituals, well-planned get togethers and individual and group celebrations across the earth.
We are moving into the final quarter of the year and considering and planning for what lies ahead after December. What lies ahead for thousands of vulnerable world citizens is experiencing unjust violence due to excited sorcery accusations inside their communities. When individuals are branded as a witch and blamed for causing harm with witchcraft, their actual safety and life is in danger, and it often comes at the hand of their own families and neighbors. Please learn more about the advocacy that is happening around the world by going to our show notes and finding links to advocacy groups.
Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.

[01:08:07] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:08:09] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:08:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:08:15] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:08:17] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:08:20] Sarah Jack: See what's going on at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:08:23] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and everyone that you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[01:08:31] Sarah Jack: Support the global efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

September 7, 2023

Witch-Hunting in India with Dr Govind Kelkar

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Show Notes

This conversation is our podcast’s first inquiry about witch hunting in the nation of India. Our guest, Govind Kelkar, holds a PhD in Political Economy of China and is Professor and Executive Director for GenDev Centre for Research and Innovation in India. She has authored 16 books and numerous scholarly publications. This episode introduces us to the impact of witch-hunting on indigenous societies, women, and about variations between matrilineal and patrilineal cultures within the broader patriarchy in India.

We ask: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?

Culture, Capital and Witch Hunts in Assam, by Govind Kelkar & Aparajita Sharma

Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Meghalaya and Nagaland

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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:27] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:29] Josh Hutchinson: We are so excited to bring you this interview with Dr. Govind Kelkar about witch hunting in India. This is our first time visiting that country on the podcast, and we're going to learn about some of the concepts and different occult roles that are available either by choice or by other people's labeling. It's not just about witches and sorcerers, there are also healers and diviners, and we learn about tiger people and snake keepers and all kinds of interesting stuff.
[00:01:23] Sarah Jack: A lot of what we learned today comes out of the academic study that she did on communities in two northeast Indian states.
[00:01:32] Josh Hutchinson: She focused on indigenous communities and studied both matrilineal and patrilineal cultures.
[00:01:43] Sarah Jack: Enjoy this discussion today and also take time to pull this study up to read it for yourself. We will have this specific research linked in our show notes, and you need to read it as a follow up.
[00:02:01] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we hear straight from an expert who's been working in this field of study in India for 25 years and has a lot of field experience, as well as professorial experience. Just done a lot of hands-on research in communities that are affected by witch hunting.
And another important aspect that we discuss with Dr. Kelkar is how to go about ending witch hunting in India. So she talks about the roles of healthcare and education and things like that to help alleviate the crisis.
[00:02:58] Sarah Jack: Dr. Govind Kelkar holds a PhD in political economy of China. She's a professor and executive director for GenDev Center for Research and Innovation in India. She has authored 16 books and numerous scholarly publications. She has recently completed two co-authored studies: "Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Assam" and "Witch Hunts, Culture, Patriarchy, and Structural Transformation." She has previously taught at Delhi University, the Indian Institute of Technology, Mumbai, and the Asian Institute of Technology, Bangkok, Thailand. There she founded the graduate program in gender development studies and also the Gender, Technology, and Development Journal, published by Sage and now by Routledge, India.
[00:03:47] Josh Hutchinson: So this is our first time for our listeners to visit India. What should our listeners know about the situation with witch hunting in India?
[00:03:59] Govind Kelkar: There is a general kind of ignorance about the witches. Once in a while, the article, a newspaper article appears, and from particular indigenous areas, and this practice does exist in rural areas also, but it generally it is ignored. Oh, this is their practice. So othering of the problem is one thing, and second is that it is forgotten, as if it doesn't exist. So this is generally kind of thing. And whenever there is a presentation I have made in Council for Social Development, where I'm affiliated, then or any other organization and they think, oh, this is not a general problem, this is only confined to indigenous people, which is very painful. We have quite a sizeable number of indigenous people, but it is very painful to know this kind of attitude.
And the so-called kind of is considered uneducated people living in forest and they are not uneducated by any means. Those who consider this kind of problem are uneducated, really, about their own society. I have been part of the women's movement and feminist movement in India, and we also did not take into consideration for quite late into the violence against women.
And it still, it is not the mainstream of discussion in the violence against women. I have a bit of critique of our feminist movement also. Now, there are a couple of filmmakers and people who talk about it, but very few.
[00:05:38] Sarah Jack: Can you give us a definition of a witch in the context that happens in India or tell us how a witch should be defined to understand who's getting attacked?
[00:05:53] Govind Kelkar: I would define the witch, which we discuss this, and when we wrote the book I have a co-authored book, as I was telling you, published in 2020 by Cambridge University Press. And that is one thing that I thought that it would be. One day we will ask the question that, who do you consider the witch?
A very brief and crisp definition is a woman or a man, sometime it is men also, but supernatural powers who cause harm to their own or to her community people. So it is not that she causes harm to other people, but within, to her extended family, to her close family, to her community. Somebody falls sick, somebody has the crop loss, untimely rain, which destructive, all these kind of considered a kind of something which is caused by the witch, with the exception of Covid, which happened. There was a large number of people who were denounced as or branded as witches during that period. But Covid was not considered as a witch phenomena, maybe because it came as a tsunami or it has came a kind of a, or affected everybody. So that is the reason that if it has happened in certain parts, then probably this would've been also one reason.
[00:07:15] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:07:17] Josh Hutchinson: And so the allegations, they're usually coming from people who are close, either kin or neighbors?
[00:07:25] Govind Kelkar: Unfortunately, very close. It would be husband's brother, his nephews. In most cases they would be the people. Sometime it is close neighbors extended who are likely to get hold of some property by extension the woman has. And normally these would be unsupported women, either where the husband is weak, either physically has some ailments, or he's not there, or the sons are working.
It's very patriarchal society, okay, with the exception of Meghalaya. So either sons are away and they visit only once in 6 years or once in 12 years. And then the woman would be harassed by the husband's nephews, which are, who are her nephews, because they will get that property.
The question one raises what property it has, I think even a kind of tattered house for utensils, whatever in that context, the property there, they will get hold of that. So if the woman is driven out or killed, then this would be the case. Sometime neighbors also do, if there is a child dies, then probably the neighbors also would join together.
I recently visited about three months ago, I was in the field in a state of Tripura, and I went to see a case, which has happened only two weeks ago where a woman was buried alive and her husband and seven others, close relations of the husband, they were party to it. And I was surprised. I was in the village. I did not know before that where the husband was also party to it. So I asked the mother-in-law, I said, who are the people who did it? And she said people in the village, close relatives. I said, where is the husband? Because the son who was eight year old, he was wearing those funeral kind of clothes, white clothes, not sleeping on the cot, but sleeping on the mat. So he was carrying that to sit on that so that he did not sit either on the ground or on something else. So I said why this little boy is doing this white clothes and all this. And they said, oh, because it is our custom.
But I said, where is the father? Says that he has gone to market, but actually he was in the police custody. They were arrested. So even this kind of incident how the people are saved or they lose face in telling the outsiders.
[00:10:00] Josh Hutchinson: Are the perpetrators often arrested?
[00:10:04] Govind Kelkar: Wherever there is a law or the person is killed. The accusations or branding as a witch, that there is no arrest for that, even when the law is there, which is very unfortunate. She's harassed for months. She is driven out. Only when she's killed, then there would be arrest. So it is the case of the murder then. They see that.
So there is the Indian penal code. In seven states of India, we have the law against witch hunts, but they're also really the, they call it prevention witch hunts kind of thing. But police acts only when the woman is killed. Being driven out, being harassed, being branded as a witch, there is a whole process goes on for quite some time before she's killed. Nothing happens during that period. Although they are supposed to do that legally.
[00:10:57] Josh Hutchinson: So it sounds like authorities could step in before it gets to the point of murder, but they're not doing that.
[00:11:06] Govind Kelkar: Yes, if you see the laws of these kind of where the state has been passed, highest number is in the state of Jharkhand and then followed by Assam. These are the, we call them states, what is called the provinces in the earlier kind of thing. And then it is in Mizoram, and I have done work in all three these areas. And one finds that the law is very, Mizoram doesn't have any law. Assam has these laws recently passed. And they're really toothless, very lame laws kind of thing, including in a ridiculous, the first law that was passed in 2005 or something, it was two thousand fine for this kind of thing.
So court treats this as a part of the belief system. They say it was done as a kind of under the influence of the belief, although legally it is, this is not so in the law, but this is the treatment of the code. Police is generally from this caste society. And even when they are part some indigenous people are there, they also get influenced because they are in a smaller number. They don't raise the voice. And then also you see that this is treated as the kind of part of the belief system. This crime is not treated as seriously as the other crimes would be treated. So harassment, although they say for some laws that I recently passed, like in case of Orissa State harassment is part of the law, but it is not implemented.
Nobody reports about it. They don't go to the village. They don't know. The woman also doesn't know that she has to go to the court because she finds court very useful. First thing, there is a general fear. You don't know the language that lot of women have not familiar with Hindi or English, which is the language of the law. And the result is that they are not taken serious. They don't have the confidence to go also, that is the, to go with the lawyer or to the police. So there is a lot of gap between law and the what actual happens in the practice.
[00:13:18] Sarah Jack: Can you tell us how the gender systems are diverse?
[00:13:23] Govind Kelkar: In indigenous areas, we have two kind of varieties by and large, two major kind of thing. One is the matrilineal state, which is the, where the, it is not matriarchy, but it is matriliny in terms of the lineage, property rights that the land rights, they are with the women, they are even spiritual heads, in terms of making decisions in some community. Within the particular state, also, there are communities. So somewhere they are spiritual heads. So for example, the Khasi society, they are the spiritual heads, but not in Garo.
But they are not there in the decision making. All the decision is made in these matrilineal systems by men. So not a single woman would be there in the, either in the local body, which is called durbar, village level or onwards till the state level. So political matters and decision making, these are considered as the male role. And the male preserver a male domain. And the women's domain would be cooking, cleaning, agricultural work, managing the household, providing for the family, taking care of children, and also property management. Youngest daughter inherits the property. Whether it is a management or it is the ownership, in both cases, the youngest daughter would get it. So this is one system of the matriliny.
Then the rest of the societies, by and large, are patriarchal, where it happens. In the patriarchal, women don't own any land. There is total economic independence on men. They don't make any decisions. They, what else would be of course, cooking, cleaning, all that kind of division of labor, gender, division of labor, which is by and large universal kind of thing, except some changes happening now that is there in these patriarchal societies.
And in these societies also, there is a kind of very high level of brutalization of women, unlike in the matrilineal society. But there is one thing that needs to be really noted that even in this matrilineal society, there is a movement of men for taking control of the property. Somewhere they have succeeded also. For example, in case of Nagaland, nokma, which was the village head, that was the position, N O K M A, nokma was the title of the village head, that these village heads were women.
And the, when she got married, then the husband would assist her. So he would be called traditionally as nokma's husband, but now it is the other way. As soon as the nokma gets married, the entire kind of responsibilities and authorities, powers, they are taken over by the husband, and he goes around, and he makes the decisions, and nobody even knows really, except the village itself, that the nokma is the woman, not the man, only that kind of village. I was surprised. I was three days in this village. Third day I came to know that woman was the nokma, and I was interviewing with the husband as the nokma, he was introduced. And this was the general pattern. This is happening in Garo society, particularly, which are the matrilineal.
In Khasi society, you find that there is a movement of the men. There are two organizations like that. One organization called the equal rights of property division that to boys and girls, they should inherit both. And second is saying that no, we should follow what is happening in the rest of India. We are not progressive. We are backward. Progressive means here, not in terms of ideology and ideas, economic development, but they use the word progressive. So we are not economically developed or so-called progressive, because women are ruling here.
These are the kind of gender systems, the kind of, but even in matrilineal kind of thing, what is important? No decision making powers with women except when a woman is involved kind of thing. But even then, within that, there is a kind of less number of cases, a woman being denounced as witches or brutalized, that kind of thing. Once or twice a case happens, there is actually there more attack on men. This is surprising.
There, which I have found that men are considered as a kind of doing the, if we same take the definition of the witch, which I told you that they are causing harm to others as the thlen keepers. Thlen is the biggest snakes. So that is they worship the kind of this big snake, giant snake, or we can call it dragon, but they call it the serpent.
So this serpent, which is known as thlen, the household known as the thlen keeper, and thlen keeper are the people if you make money, all of a sudden. That's why I consider capitalism also responsible. So suppose you are working outside in Delhi and you send remittances and you have a good house and you don't associate so much with your community, then probably there would be a initially no interaction with you or with your family, because it's supposed to be, if you go there, then your blood would be sucked. Nobody knows kind of thing. And they say, oh, the thlen changes the shape, sometime he is as as a string of a thread, so nobody sees it, but he is supposed to subsist on human blood. The saying goes like this, that even this family employs some men to collect the blood from the fingernails. So the distrust is there that if any kind of unknown person comes to the village, he's threatened with his life. There have been some cases, and particularly young boys have been killed. I think about two years ago, five young boys were killed because of that. Three in one case and two in one case.
[00:19:39] Josh Hutchinson: And that's because they were outsiders?
[00:19:43] Govind Kelkar: They were outsiders. They were having some free time and they wanted to go around and they did not tell the families and they were outsiders. So they were.
[00:19:52] Josh Hutchinson: Okay. And you mentioned that accumulating wealth causes suspicion, as well?
[00:20:00] Govind Kelkar: That's precisely the kind of thing. This is happens in both matrilineal and patriarchal societies that if you are rich and the rich, better off, economically, much better off than the rest of kind of thing, than rest of the household, then it is considered that you have some mystical powers. And then through a, those kind of exploitative means that you have become rich. So I visited one area in matrilineal society where the ojha or the healer was killed, the ojha or shaman, why the shaman was killed, and by his own nephews, because the nephews kept asking him, why don't you teach me how you have become rich?
He didn't say clearly. He said, of course, I just treat others and I don't do anything. He said no, you must have some mantras, some kind of powers you must have. So you have become rich. He has much better house than the cousins have, or the brother's sons have. And then he couldn't give them anything because probably there were not. And one night, 11 in the night they came, this is about a year old story and Garo Hills in the matrilineal society. And these three brother Sons they came, nephews. And these nephews just beheaded him.
[00:21:22] Josh Hutchinson: For the listeners, I just want to let everyone know we recently read your study titled Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Meghalaya and Nagaland. We'll put a link to it in the show description so people can see what we're talking about.
The ojha or shaman that you spoke of, they also are involved themselves in finding witches?
[00:21:50] Govind Kelkar: That has been their role that when something happens, the villagers go to ojha to the shaman. They have different names. Sometime they are kabiraj, that is the healer and the one who treats others some. So because the person gets sick, then they go there also. Now he first probably tries to find out what is the diseases has caused kind of thing. And then he finds out, oh, it is a difficult disease if in case there is fever, persisting fever, like typhoid or something. Then he tries to really tell them that somebody has caused this problem. Now he doesn't name the person. But he indicates enough that person is that direction, third house from that house.
And there is a general kind of process. So that who would be the kind of person who would be identified? So without even naming, precisely naming the person, the whole village or that part of the village knows who is going to be affected. So this is the identification. Now, these ojhas, after where the law has been passed, these ojhas have now underground practice.
So they consult each other. Almost every village has a ojha. But now two, three villages would have one ojha, because the practice is little bit on decline. And they also is scared of the legal system, because the system of ojha is illegal in the states where the law has been passed. In Nagaland and Meghalaya, there is no law.
So they are the thlen keepers, and I have given some photographs also, and they're a ritual kind of thing. And where they put a hot, iron rod in the bubbling, in the bottle. And if the bubbles come up, they think it is the witch kind of thing. So I made a video out of this and he allowed that. He says, okay, because there is no law, he was not think that this can be at one point illegal, but it's not illegal. So then he will find out who's the thlen keeper, which household has the thlen? And if the household is very powerful, somebody in the government or somebody in this, then they leave that household. Otherwise somebody from that household would be affected and um, less killing in that household, because that generally these households are powerful but no interaction. It is the communitarian way of life, but they are ostracized, that household. So they are not invited for any ceremonies, any village functions.
And you live there or they are asked also in some parts that you please leave the village, if they are very poor, similar kind of thing. So they don't have the power really to report to the police or report to do something. And also when you are socially boycotted, there is no kind of action that you will report to the police also for that.
So that kind of, you live in a society which is ostracized. Their children also would carry that. So the, in the school, when the children goes, I interviewed one woman who has said that how she was really harassed while she was in the school, because the little girl, that household was known as the thlen keeper household. And oh, it was declared by the ojha.
And what did the system goes that you cut a piece of hair, girls have long hair, or you cut a piece of cloth that's a scarf, and this is, they say, then it offered to the serpent, it turns into blood and the serpent drinks, that kind of thing. So nobody's going to sit next to you, thinking that you might cut little piece from the flowing hair and the long hair, or you, or from the scarf, you can cut it kind of thing, and then you would be affected, you would die as a result of that. So total kind of boycott or, eh, total lack of interaction or isolation.
[00:25:53] Josh Hutchinson: Nobody feels safe interacting with that person or being close to that person?
[00:25:58] Govind Kelkar: That's right.
[00:25:59] Sarah Jack: It sounds like the thlen keeper families for generations, they would be viewed as the thlen keepers.
[00:26:14] Govind Kelkar: The only way that unless they made it so much in the system, because from, I know two thlen keepers family where one woman has married a UN official. So she definitely upgraded one. Her sister was a police officer. I met out of seven, only two. So that family could survive, but no interaction. Villagers would not interact with them. But they were able to live, they were not driven out.
And the other family I know who was a professor in Delhi. The girls are the supporters of the family. So she was professor and she also has written about it. So this is the only way out, that you made it in the system. Then you can really get rid of this. Then you will get married, not in your community and some other community out of, I mean it would be the so-called self-arranged or love marriage. It'll not be in the traditional system, the village or the surrounding villages.
[00:27:17] Josh Hutchinson: How does someone become an ojha?
[00:27:21] Govind Kelkar: One way is to dream. Somebody getting a dream that is and in different ways, in different kind of things. So one way was the dream that you, and in lot of cases it is from father to son that is the kind of practice. He learn.
Interestingly I met an ojha, who was, whose picture also I have given and who was very frank in discussing this kind of thing. He was a truck driver earlier, and he tried to become ojha. And I told him, how did you become? And he said he was being treated and nothing was working. That ojha was not. So he thought he would practice. And so that's how that he learned. And he, I said, how much time you took to become ojha, and he said about one and a half year.
So it is also learning from others. Sometime you become ojha, they have the kind of assistant also. Initially you watch, you help the kind of thing. You heat the fire, you put the fire on, and you boil the water. And so that is how you learn. And then you set up your own practice. Sometime dream, dream is very convenient. They strongly believe it. And since I'm a nonbeliever, so I say it's very convenient, but they believe that they had the dream and this kind of thing, and this dream can be sometime like that you dreamt about a word entering into your body or some other objects entering your body, and that is seen as this is a kind of God's wish that you become a healer kind of thing, that you have become the treating others as your duty to the community.
[00:29:05] Josh Hutchinson: And then how does someone get associated with keeping the serpent?
[00:29:11] Govind Kelkar: Keeping the serpent. Nobody has seen it. It is normally the rich families. I'm using their term as the rich, better house, children going outside, better clothes, acquiring car. In such a way that you are called within your community as much economically better off, much better off than others.
And then they think that it is the thlen worshipers, they are known as the thlen worshipers. That serpent must have blessed them. And thlen lives on the human blood as I explained earlier. So that's why people don't go to the house. But they, in most cases, they are not driven out, because of their economic power.
[00:29:54] Josh Hutchinson: Speaking about the economics, you talked in the study about the emergence of the accumulative economics, where before it was largely communal economics, and what impact is that having on witch hunting?
[00:30:16] Govind Kelkar: Either we call it market forces or we call it accumulative society, or we call it a capitalist society. So this is one of the thing, so the accumulating household, that means who are in their perception accumulating household. And really they are become the, they are much better off than the rest of them. There is a mystical belief that how they have acquired the wealth and we have not acquired? Or for example, if I fields and then that it would be considered how your fields are fertile? I have also fields, I'm also working, but my fields do not produce as much as your fields produce, so there must be the kind of some kind of mystical means. So this thlen is considered that you must be worshiping, thlen must have blessed you. The thlen is like a kind of god in this sense, the spirit, and that that has blessed you and that's why you have become like this. So that is one thing in Meghalaya, the matrilineal state.
The other society, Nagaland, this is the tiger. The human takes the form of the tiger, and they go on robbing others. And that is very kind of a system has become like that. They have council of tigers, tiger men, and nobody can blame them for this kind of tiger men, because they are not human when they attack them, when they rob others.
The first thing they do it in the night, and it is supposed to be that these are the tigers who are doing it. Tiger men, they call it tiger men who are doing it. And it is really not those our neighbors who are doing it. Yeah. Or the villagers, our villagers are not doing this is the tiger spreads that make them. So no reporting against them, no appeal against them. They take anybody's cow, anybody's pig, anybody's chicken, and they subsist on that. And of course this is a scot-free.
They also molest women, and that was very meekly discussed in a kind of that they go in the forest where there is a drinking, there is a feasting because somebody has, who has got this by other tigers within the village, outside the village. And there would be the, a woman who is collecting, gathering things from the forest, she would be normally subject to their attacks. The sexual attacks I'm talking about.
[00:32:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
[00:32:46] Govind Kelkar: The tiger possessors, they are not really driven out of the village, because they are considered tiger. And it goes like that tiger and humans are brothers. On the one hand that even if the real tiger comes, animal, they would not kill that tiger because that is considered as the brother has come, and of course there are studies also sometime for random at the Burmese border, Burma, and Mizoram border. There are some people who in order to terrorize I was in one interview was I was told that there is a random shooting of the human beings also. So that it would be the, and of course there is also that human flesh eating or cannibalism that was also reported. From earlier period of headhunting, it emerges from there, but now they don't talk about that much, but they say that tigers have this urge to eat raw meat. That is the time that they go on robbing others.
I met a tiger woman also and a tiger man, and they discussed their kind of thing. Woman has retired from the government service, and I was surprised all her life from the childhood till now she was being blamed as the tiger woman. Tiger girl, tiger woman. And when I had a dinner with her, and I asked her that, how did she herself probably started, because I didn't have the courage to ask whether you were branded as a tiger woman, but probably she could know that why I was meeting her all of a sudden coming from Delhi.
She said that she had preferred to work in the night. And that she was sleepy during day in the school. And as a result of being sleepy, she was not able to pay more attention or the focus attention or she will look like this here and there. That was also his, and they said that because she's active in the night, she's a tiger girl. And this tiger girl, she kept studying, but they kept saying that kind of thing. And of course you don't say the girl, you would say that she's a tiger girl, but when she becomes a woman, she starts kind of thing. You don't start talking to her as that. Are you a tiger woman or not? So everyone talks about you, but nobody says things on your face.
She gave some information to her brother-in-law, who was in the deputy inspector general of police, who were looking in that area. She gave some information because she happened to gather some forest produce, and her brother-in-law, in fact, informed me that I have a sister-in-law who's a tiger woman. Would you like to meet her? I met this retired police officer. That's how I met her. So even the brother-in-law confirmed that she was, and a police officer, highest ranking police officer in the state, confirmed that she's a tiger woman.
I asked him, where are the other tiger men that you are talking about? And he said they are in the lot in the police force, a lot in the army. So I was surprised to see that, how matter of fact, he, of course, he gave me very frank interview that I was doing the research that he understood well. But I was also surprised to know that how this system is prevalent, belief that they change the form in the night. They become tigers, these human beings, and then go and take resources from people.
[00:36:19] Sarah Jack: These interviews are so important. The information that you gather firsthand from the individuals seems very important.
[00:36:31] Govind Kelkar: Thank you. I also thought, because I have been associated with the indigenous studies for, I don't know, over two decades and that time I studied in Central India and these two states, Jharkhand and all this, this system was not there. So this is also diversity kind of thing. The tiger were not there. Witches were there, outright witches. And killing them was only to getting rid of them. And you ask them that, what is the number of the witches would be there. And they would say that their, every village would have two or three witches, women. And they are either old, most of them are old. Sometime you do find young women also, but they would be unsupported, sometimes single, sometime unsupported and sometime they assert their right. I got a call, I think last year a woman ward member, ward is the panchayat, which is the local village kind of thing.
She's a considered important person to deal with the local affairs. So a woman was a ward member, and she was very effective, and she was told you step down, otherwise we'll call you a witch, and we will treat you like that. And her husband was there, but he could not protest. And the child was also young. Two daughters, one son. So it is the normal family, but it was not by single, by any means kind of thing. The single women now are supportless women. Everybody was there, but because she was asserting her right? So patriarchy is another factor. You should be where you society has kept tradition, has kept you subordinate to men, economically dependent on men, and do your kind of work that has been assigned to them, household. Don't attempt to do things. So that is also factor besides capital, besides accumulation, these things are also there.
[00:38:32] Josh Hutchinson: And how do you make changes to improve the situation for women?
[00:38:39] Govind Kelkar: Very important question there. The government of India recently in the last two, three years, have recognized three women for fighting the witch system. They were denounced as witches and one in central India in Jharkhand state, one in Assam, and one in Mizoram. They were labeled and they fought or they fought this kind of thing.
So government gave them a kind of award called Padma Shri, so I interviewed this Padma Shri woman I said, how you have become so important. You were able to fight the system. You didn't care. One point was that, of course, it was not easy fighting the system, was not easy.
What I gather from that discussion that you have raised, that women's agency is very important. Capacities and agency is very important. I don't care if you call me a kind of tiger woman or you call me a witch. Okay. So that becomes very important capacity of the household. If of course, if household is supportive kind of thing. In one case, this woman, her husband has denounced her as witch. She took the support from other women who were, some organizations have come, NGO support, and she left the house and she went there because that's how she was able to survive. Supportive structures within an outside community is very important. That is one is strategy is important.
Second is law is also important. If you have, wherever there is a law, these ojhas and shamans, they are no longer as active as they used to be. They are underground. They are working very stealthily, but they are not they would be arrested if they know that they are ojha. Then particularly if there is witch killing case, then ojha also would be arrested because he would be the person who has identified. So he's scared for that. So law is important, but law by itself is not enough. Law has to be strict, more kind of punitive and punishment for this action, and punishment has to be not only in terms of when she's killed, but punishment when she's branded, because that is a state that would be there. So the law has to look all kind of things.
A general neglect of the indigenous people I also feel in the legal system. Oh, this is their part of the belief. And some people also, I also feel felt a bit of resistance and it is state like Meghalaya. They say you are, this is the part of our sacred culture. So indigeneity or kind of identity movement, which is coming, that needs to be really a cushion that in, your identity as a group, as a community is important, but this identity has to be the human rights respecting culture.
So the cultures have to be really, and there is no harm in taking good aspect of the culture from any other part. There has to be good kind of aspect of culture, because I give them example of India where the sati system was there. I don't know if you're familiar with sati. Sati was the, S A T I, sati was the system where the woman was burnt alive with the death of the husband, which was outlawed. And this was considered as a part of the Indian culture. So I gave them that example that how these things have been eliminated. Treatment of the women or burning of women in Europe, witches thing. So this so that, so this is the second law has to be effective by capacity building of women and it has to be Good punitive with good punitive measures. It doesn't have to be larger sphere of the sake of it has to be implemented. Third has to be really the case, which is more important, strike at the belief system. So throughout the campaign, the discussion, research-based advocacy would be important against this kind of practice. So women's agency, effective legal measures. Third would be really the good kind of research based advocacy at the community level, advocacy at the state level, because we normally think everything you do to the government, it is solved. No, here the community is also involved.
So we are not attacking the cultures, but we are attacking some aspect of the, I have a lot of respect for the indigenous people's culture in their communitarian way of life, in their conservation of the resources, water conservation, forest management, the very kind of good practices. But along with good practice, you have unfortunately this practice. So that is important that somehow it is not a attack on their culture. It is only one part of the culture that needs change like untouchability cast system in India that needs to be changed. Whatever the good kind of part would be of the Indian culture. That would be the one of the things. Or like racial situation in the US or treatment of the indigenous people. So in any society, we have these kind of belief features and they need to be changed. So that is one thing that repeated kind of dialogue with the indigenous people with their community, that has to continue and till they take their in their own hands so that, because there are some women group that has come, there are some individuals, one or two organizations. And film would be a good source for this.
And most important was a woman who was a kind of awardee, this Padma Shri awardee, in Jharkhand, whose husband has denounced her as a kind of witch. She said the proof is very important, and in the European history also, if you see that proof was required. Show me how I have caused harm. So it is not really that I did something to make somebody sick. There has been concrete evidence, concrete proof. So once if the judicial system is start asking for the proof or the legal system start asking for the proof, the community asking for the proof, because first the cases go to community before they go to the court, then the proof is very important. If I am witch, then show me what I have done to your child, kind of thing.
Healthcare is also considered, good healthcare. So these are the five strategies that I think would be useful to address this kind of system, because there has been a PhD work on somebody did a research on Chhattisgarh one state, and there used to be in the 19th century cholera witches, because people were dying of cholera, children were dying of cholera. And that time it was that they were called as a cholera witches. That means that somebody has caused some kind of poison the child through some means, and she was known as the cholera witches. Not much earlier, not now. This brand of cholera witches completely disappeared after this kind of became that what you need on the dehydration, rehydration kind of thing in order to avoid the cholera. And you could survive.
So I think decentralized, effective healthcare also would be important. So then people won't go to ojha. These states are also literate states but out of belief, they will not go to a doctor, they'll go to ojha for treatment. So if you go to fever, so that, that is also needs to be changed. And I think this will be changed through the community dialogue.
[00:46:32] Sarah Jack: I have a question. How does the education of children work in these communities?
[00:46:42] Govind Kelkar: Very educated, very articulate in English, very articulate in other subjects. But there was a young man who was recently for me, local researcher. And he was studying in very elite College of Delhi. I asked him, because he was my local, I said, do you believe in the witch system? He said, not in Delhi, but when I go back home, I believe. I said, how do you believe? He says, I'm fearful that something might happen to me, somebody might cause something. I was so surprised. Then I said, this is the study that is not there in that kind of thing, but hopefully soon you will be able. I'm writing that study. So I was surprised, because I thought a person who is comes very articulate, very knows things, and he is acting as my research assistant, so we have discussed the thing. But he also said that while I'm Delhi, I don't believe in, that's nothing would happen to me, but back home, something, somebody might do something.
So how this kind of in socialization kind of thing, socialization does internalization also, we we internalize many things without knowing, and there nothing as education that attacks our internalization. It is the other way, in fact. If we are questioned for something, then we become very defensive. So that is one of the things that education is not, that's why I didn't refer to education. 86. 6% and 90% people are educated. Much better kind of educational figures than you have in the other parts of India. But they have these practices.
And there is nothing in our textbooks. And sometime media, it seems very popular in terms of television shows talking about how the witches are there and how would this source of kind of so-called entertainment their feet are towards the backside and upside down feet and they don't touch the ground. All these kind of promoted as a part of the entertainment, but they enter our mind for this. So they further reinforce the belief system.
So in this young man, then I gave him the assignment that he interviewed about 21 young people, youth, and out of 21, and they were all in the college and the doing the BA. Out of 21, only one did not believe in the witch system. Others, including he himself, everyone believed in the witch practice. So this is the education that is the role, how we can see that. Probably education is important, but what kind of education we are, we question that.
These things should be included in the textbooks, in the primary school itself kind of thing. Then education works. That definitely education works. This is our attempt, but I don't know when we will be able to effectively address this. That in the education really it should be kind of part of the thing and that need to be addressed. But we are going through a difficult phase in terms of with our political system. So let's hope that someday, change would come. That kind of education is very important that with the real education, I would think and parents also need to be educated probably. We stop saying that. Oh, stop crying. Otherwise the witch would come and take you. Huh? So that also happens. Many families. Many families.
[00:50:23] Sarah Jack: That could happen in any culture on any continent. That warning, for sure.
[00:50:29] Govind Kelkar: Yes. These are the lingering kind of things that continue with their cultures. Yes.
[00:50:34] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:50:35] Govind Kelkar: Yeah, that is very important, really how effective kind of thing it can be. That is because here it is the kind of vengeance, vendetta. As soon as somebody child dies, particularly child dies, and then they are looking for somebody to attack. And they know that child may has been having fever or something, but even then they are looking at that, start looking what somebody must have done something.
So along with the healthcare, availability of the healthcare, this kind of measure also needed, training of the healthcare workers, ASHA, we call them, this would be important at local level. There is a healthcare worker, ASHA, a training of ASHA in this regard would be very important.
[00:51:19] Sarah Jack: When you were talking about the asking for proof, the requirement of proof, that's the beginning of critical thinking and questioning. I know when we heard from Dr. Leo Igwe with witch attacks in Nigeria, one of the things that they're trying, the Advocacy for Alleged Witches is really trying to implement critical thinking curriculum in the elementary, young pupils, and just getting them to question things.
[00:51:55] Govind Kelkar: It would be important probably. There is some beginning is being made here also in terms of questioning. In Jharkhand it has happened both among the supportive structures outside the community and within community. But in northeast India, which is more literate and more as a kind of, these seven states together, what kind of thing, as all are indigenous states and all are highly educated people, and I think 60 to 80% are Christians converted to Christianity. They are also very well educated because one of the things for Christianity was the education and doing kind of thing there.
I did not find this kind of questioning. That is what comes as a surprise to me. And one of the things was also that limited research has been done and anthropological researchers that have been done earlier, they have done really like a state of affairs that is this is happening among these communities. Why it is happening, what kind of impact it has, whether it need to be changed, this was not questioned. So this othering of the people, othering of the problem, that is the only thing that kind of is available in the literature that is on the society that is there. Our attempt here in this alliance that they are like us and we are like them, whatever the way we can put it.
And every society has some problems, so it is not really that, and we need to address this problem. We need to question that problem, because both caste system and sati which I gave these two kind of very bad examples, or even female infanticide, we are still working on these kind of things. Somewhere it has changed, somewhere has not changed. But it has come with much kind of after long struggle kind of thing. So I think this thing is also going to change. I am a strong with optimist that this is also going to change. The laws have been passed in some states. We are trying our kind of effort to pass a laws in other states also. And central, some people were thinking that there should be one laws from the center. And probably there is need for it, but we need specific laws from a state level also, because there are special characters of this problem.
I define witch, thlen keeper is also witch, because it causes harm to the community that kind of furthering or the tiger person. So that's why I call them in ritual attacks and witch hunts kind of thing. This is hunting of these people, witches, going on within that largely women because they are at a weaker place in the society. So 80% or 85% would be women only. Some men would be denounced. These are the figures that come.
I have a case study. This has been qualitative study, so case studies about one. 1 63 people, 110 from Jharkhand and the other kind of thing, 14 plus the, FG D'S focus group discussions. So I've not included them, so probably that would be an important thing. That's why I am trying my best to write in these kind of, small monograph or small papers like that. They can be sent to these states, and they can be subject of discussion, but they can be in English because everybody knows English. The language is English. So that is what, but where it is not, probably it can be translated in local languages, also. So that will be the next step that I am aiming at, or we are aiming at the part of this society.
[00:55:45] Sarah Jack: I'd be interested in understanding a little bit more about the struggle and the work for the human rights around the gender inequalities.
[00:55:59] Govind Kelkar: Gender equality and in this kind of sense also, both are sustainable development goals are very important. And there the all states have signed. So it is not really that it is the imposition of North on South that south is very much responsible for the, and a state of gender inequality is very high. India is known for kind of gender inequality. Yeah. Women don't have land rights. Land, I am saying property rights. But land is very important where it's still 63% population is in the rural areas, you will take land as the one kind of factor. So land, house, other property. So this economic dependence of women on men, unless this is addressed, this is the fundamental part of the kind of their inequality.
Second is about the kind of socialization process. Care work, not being recognized as work. This is another part kind of thing that is, which really feeds on all of us, and these are done at. You know how educated these people are. You sit in the UN system and then you or the economist doing this kind of thing that not a woman does work from morning to evening that goes, and that work is not recognized as work. And so eight hours or six hours you work in the office and that is recognized as work.
So these are the struggles that are going on in the whole feminist movement or gender movement. Economic rights in terms of the real property rights and in terms of the care work, these are the important kind of thing and social norms. How do you question the social norms? Social norms inhibited these laws that have been passed. We need to question our social norms everywhere kind of thing. That would be important. The dress, the hair, the kind of whatever that we want to do. We can do this thing. I'm not taking anarchic position, but I'm taking really the rights based position that we have signed human rights, we have signed human rights declaration. Since 1948, we have been talking about these things about that no discrimination based on sex, class, creed, but these are continuing kind of things. They go back, they come back, some changes made kind of thing. So this is the inequality and that gives us hope, that witch question is also part of this?
How much violence is there women within home and outside in public spaces, and we are all civilized people, that kind of thing. So this is not really that we kill, we call gorillas from somewhere and they are doing it. No, we are doing within our own society. I don't want to blame only indigenous people or indigenous societies or some rural areas for these kind of practices. We are so much engaged in these kind of practices both North and South. South is also North is also a struggling. Women in the North is so struggling against for recognition of their work for maternity leaves.
I studied the University of Michigan five years was there. And it is not really that women , has any maternity leave as a producing child is the private thing. If you stop producing children, what happens to the human society? Huh? That is the otherwise we talk so much of human resource development, but production of the human resource is not considered, given any value. And how do you maintain support that kind of that work is not even recognized, and there is no recognition of this kind of thing. So of course we come from a historic past where the women did not have the even the right to vote. So in kind of European society, what is the Switzerland got in 1971 or something that is as late as that. So inequality is so much ingrained. Gender inequality is so much ingrained in our social systems.
These norms need to be changed. And this also applies to a whole question of the witch hunts, that also norms should be changed.
[01:00:08] Sarah Jack: And how are the women as far as fighting for this change? Even getting women to the point where they can say, this isn't fair. There's probably so much work to do there.
[01:00:26] Govind Kelkar: We are doing so much work, both in terms of advocacy, in terms of writing, in terms of protest. Doing a lot of work. There is a very vibrant movement in India, also, both women's movement and feminist movement, but atrocities also are committed against women. But we are also not taking it lying down. We are protesting, we are questioning the government system. We are questioning the judicial system. So both are happening, but when you don't, you are not in the positions of power, then it becomes very limited change that you can bring about. So women are not there in parliament. They should be in the parliament in 50% numbers. We don't have 30% kind of thing. And how long this law has been that 30, this is the goal that has been 33% women. So that is, they should be there if, except in the Scandinavian countries, we don't find this kind of number coming up. US doesn't also have, so this is the global situation that we're talking about.
Globally women's movement also very vibrant in the US. And also in India, also in China. China is supposed to be a very controlled society, but within China also there is a very kind of strong women's movement that is happening. But besides this, there is a kind of this strong movement and the repression is also a strong. So those who are in the positions of power, they also want to maintain their power, whether they are men or women, but in this case it is men who are in the positions of power.
[01:02:04] Josh Hutchinson: Is there anything that we haven't talked about today that you want to be sure to get across?
[01:02:11] Govind Kelkar: Not as a question, but as a kind of as a solidarity statement that was, I was thinking that at international level this is a big progress. You in the US and Miranda in the Pacific or that part of the world and I in South Asia. Coming together and discussing this itself is a very important step.
We are not really living in our comfort zones, having the kind, we are talking of the social transformation when we are discussing these things. But I don't want to treat this as the exceptional kind of exceptionalism of indigenous people. That has to be the kind of thing it is.
We have also similar situations in Europe, in US, and in Pacific, much worse. Violence is very high in Pacific. We have racial question in the US. My daughter is there, so I'm familiar. I studied there. So I'm familiar. In India, caste system and in a neglect of indigenous people by and large, that prevails all over. We have a solidarity to work together towards this.
[01:03:21] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

[01:03:32] Mary Bingham: Elizabeth How was a woman in her late fifties described by her friends as a devoted Christian and wife, everything a good Puritan carried in her heart. In fact, Elizabeth sought membership with the Ipswich Church in 1682, which she lived in Colonial Massachusetts, British America, but was railroaded by Samuel Perley, who at that time believed that Elizabeth bewitched his sick, 10 year old daughter, Hannah. Hannah remained sick with an illness the doctor could not diagnose. She remained in ill health for three years and blamed Elizabeth for her illness until her dying day.
So now Elizabeth was considered somewhat of an outcast by some with anger and vengeance rearing their ugly heads. Eventually, Elizabeth was formally accused of witchcraft 10 years later, and the Perley family were soon to testify against her recounting stories from 10 years prior. The only thing that Elizabeth could do as she waited to be hanged at Proctor's Ledge in Salem was to stand to her truth until her dying day, which she did with grace and dignity.
Let's fast forward to 2012 in the country of Papua New Guinea. A beautiful 20 year old woman and mother of two, Kepari Leniata, was accused of witchcraft when a young neighbor became seriously ill and died at the local hospital. Due to the continuing strong beliefs in others using supernatural harmful means when a sudden death occurs, his grieving parents and relatives blamed his death on sorcery. Two women originally hunted down by the family pointed the finger at Kepari. Kepari was forcefully removed from her hut, dragged through the streets to the local landfill, and was burned alive on a pile of trash with onlookers watching, not helping to save her life. Kepari, like Elizabeth How 320 years prior, stood firm to her truth while she was violently and brutally murdered.
Please listen to Sarah Jack inform as to how you can become involved to end violent deadly witch hunts. Thank you.

[01:05:53] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:05:55] Josh Hutchinson: And here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[01:06:05] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends, have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump into end witch hunts with your particular abilities, influence, and network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing, long-term, collective effort for all of us to participate in.
I wanted to share about a special email I received this week from Connecticut. The email was from a local coffee shop that will be featuring an original drink concoction on their upcoming fall menu, honoring their local witch trial history. Stay tuned to our social media to see photos of the drink and find out which town and coffee shop is remembering this victim. What a meaningful gesture to recognize the story of this victim. A menu item created as a tribute to one of the victims named in the recent Connecticut General Assembly bill, HJ 34, is a thoughtful act of memorialization. Those accused and tried for witchcraft crimes in the American colonies were innocent of all witchcraft charges. We are so pleased that Connecticut leadership voted to clear the names of all 34 witch trial victims who are known that were indicted, arrested, or hanged. We'll be continuing advocacy work to see that the remaining known victims in the American colonies witch-hunt history receive exoneration in their states, as well.
That's two cliffhangers I'm leaving you with today: a coffee surprise, and you just found out you'll be able to join us in continued witch trial victim exoneration efforts in... you'll find out soon. Well, if you follow our social media, you may already have a hunch.
This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. In 2022, while we were working on the exonerations for the Connecticut Witch Trial victims of the 17th century, volunteers from the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project founded End Witch Hunts. This organization directs our current and future initiatives such as collaborations for more education and a memorial in Connecticut, exoneration efforts in other states in the U S A where witch trial victims remain guilty for supernational crimes, as well as growing the podcast and our international partnerships with witch-hunt advocates in other nations. When we say that we are working with others to end witch hunts, it means just that. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy. You can learn more by visiting our websites and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country- specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org.
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[01:09:15] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:09:17] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:09:19] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:09:23] Sarah Jack: We look forward to talking to you next week.
[01:09:26] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:09:32] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:09:35] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, acquaintances, neighbors, and coworkers about the show.
[01:09:41] Sarah Jack: Please continue to support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:09:47] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

August 31, 2023

Prick: A Play of the Scottish Witch Trials

Prick, a new play by Laurie Flanigan Hegge, directed by Meggie Grievell

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Show Notes

Writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling speak about their new play production Prick. Prick is inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign and tells the story of folk who were victims of the terrible miscarriage of justice of the witch trials in Scotland. The story of Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. This special conversation is a reflection of the evocative, poetic, and satirical way artistic work can deliver a relevant and critical message about our history and human experience.

National Archives, Scotland, Early Modern Witch Trials

Witches of Scotland Campaign

U.S. Strategy to Prevent Conflict and Promote Stability

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