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Transcript

Secrets of the Basque Witch Hunt with Jan Machielsen Download

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores the history and impact of witch hunts around the world. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we're uncovering the history of one of Europe's most notorious witch hunts, the Basque Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: We're joined by historian Jan Machielsen, author of the newly released book, The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History. Jan's research offers a fresh perspective on this dark chapter of history.
Sarah Jack: From sex obsessed judges to child witnesses, and from bizarre descriptions of witches' sabbaths to lingering societal fears, the episode uncovers the complex factors that fueled the Basque Witch Hunt.
Josh Hutchinson: Jan also draws some intriguing parallels between historical witch hunts and modern day conspiracy theories, reminding us that these events are not just relics of the past.
Sarah Jack: So get ready for a fascinating journey into the heart of the Basque country and the witch hunts that shaped its history.
Josh Hutchinson: Let's begin our conversation with Jan [00:01:00] Machielsen.
Sarah Jack: Welcome to Witch Hunt and congratulations on your new book, The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History. Can you tell our listeners about your background and expertise? And have you had any author events?
Jan Machielsen: Oh, so my name is Jan Machielsen. I'm a reader, which is sort of associate professor here in the UK. I'm a reader at Cardiff University. This is my, depending on how you count, my second or my third book. I've written widely about witchcraft in different guises. I have written a biography of a man called Martin Delrio, who some of your readers, listeners, might know. He is one of the very famous demonologists, but this is a very different book.
Jan Machielsen: This is a book about a witch hunt rather than a demonologist, although there is a demonologist involved in it, too. But I didn't really want to start a Jan Machielsen series of biographies of demonologists. So I was very keen on focusing it on the witch hunt rather than on the [00:02:00] demonologist in question, Pierre de Lancre.
Jan Machielsen: And yeah, the book came out, as we're speaking, the book came out last week. So at the moment I have one event here in Cardiff, next week on the 15th of October, but it's sold out. And when I say sold, it's actually a free event. So it's not that difficult. And then there is an event in London that people might want to get tickets for still, and that's on Thursday, from memory, the 23rd of October. And that's at Treadwell's. It's a bookshop in London, in Bloomsbury.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. And your book is more than a simple retelling of the story of the Basque Witch Hunt. It offers a lot more. What more can listeners expect to learn about when they pick up your book?
Jan Machielsen: Well, the story of the Basque witch hunt is really famous. It is one of Europe's most [00:03:00] notorious witch hunts. And actually the parallel here is maybe particularly with Salem in the United States. There is, just as Salem is like part of the origin story of the United States, the Basque Witch Hunt is very much part of the origin story of the Basque country as a territory, and the traditional story of the witch hunt that has been retold over the centuries is that this is a witch hunt there's been inflicted on the Basque country by evil outside judges.
Jan Machielsen: The Basque country is,as you may know, divided between France and Spain. On the French side, you have a judge called Pierre de Lancre who wrote a famous book about his experiences in the Basque Country, and he's maybe for that reason always held up as almost an archetypal villain.
Jan Machielsen: And then on the Spanish side you have the Inquisition who got involved. So it's quite easy to see why this is a witch hunt that's often been told as a story of outside [00:04:00] judges like going into a territory and then searching for evil. And that's a story that's like particular resonances in the Basque Country, because the Basque Country is quite an unusual space.
Jan Machielsen: Basque, the language, is Europe's only language isolate, which means that it has no connections whatsoever to any other European language. So the Basque have their very own distinct culture, and part of what seems to have happened also is that that culture ends up being demonized in some ways.
Jan Machielsen: And of course, this attack, or this witch hunt, is then seen as an attack not just on Basque people, Basque women in particular, of course, but also seen as an attack on Basque culture, as well. And what I sort of tried to do in this book is actually turn the story a bit on its head and show that actually a lot of the impulse for this witch hunt was actually homegrown starting in the Basque country and actually that Basques have a very [00:05:00] long-established history of witch hunting that goes back at least a century, a century and a half, possibly longer, and that this is just the most extreme version of a long-existing trend.
Jan Machielsen: That's such a familiar,the secret history part. Really am so happy to see that emphasized. We have seen when we're looking at Salem, there's the history behind what is popularly known. Is there anything else that you want to speak to about the secret history? The other part of the story, I think, in terms of the secret history is the question about the sources that we historians have and how we can use those sources to try and tell a story. Part of the reason why, particularly on the French side of this witch hunt, why this witch hunt was always seen as like Pierre de Lancre being this sole person responsible [00:06:00] for this witch hunt is because he wrote a book about it, and it was like widely believed that no other source survived. And this I think has a sort of like real methodological issue for us as historians, because it raises the question as to how can we see this witch hunt from the eyes of someone else than Pierre de Lancre? And maybe we'll get into this, but Pierre de Lancre is, he's not a nice person. And when I say that this book tries to show that the witch hunts emerged out of the Basque Country itself, it's in no way an attempt to excuse Pierre de Lancre. He was one of the most unpleasant people that I've ever had to work on. And I've worked on other demonologists. So I think that's saying a lot.
Jan Machielsen: What it does mean is trying to escape his perspective. And that's another component, I think, of writing this as a sort of secret history. And in there, I have found other documents that people weren't aware of. Some of them were really difficult documents to work [00:07:00] with. A lot of documents that I found were financial records where I literally just said, payment to this judge, payment to this interpreter, payment to this jailor, and then trying to reconstruct things from there.
Jan Machielsen: But there were also other witnesses out there who've left fragmentary accounts of what happened. And I think when you put all of those things together, you get a different story that shows that Pierre de Lancre is still a significant actor in this story, but he was called in toprosecute this witch hunt, and he was also related by marriage to a member of the local Basque nobility, so he was not actually an outsider, he was actually part of internal factionalism inside the Basque country.
Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about the scale and scope, magnitude of this witch hunt? How many victims are we talking about, and what do we need to know [00:08:00] about the victims?
Jan Machielsen: Well, this is a really great question, and it's also a question that doesn't have a very cut and dry answer. Pierre de Lancre, for the French side, Pierre de Lancre is not at all interested in telling usthose types of detail. He doesn't offer like a chronological account, being like, well, today I arrived in Bayonne, the capital of the Basque country, and now I'm going to go and hunt some witches and tomorrow I will execute four. No, all he, all Pierre de Lancre says is that he and his colleague, because there was another judge working alongside him, that they prosecuted between 60 and 80 witches.
Jan Machielsen: That number then gets a bit complex, because he talks about sorcière, so that's the female French for witch, and we know that one set of targets is also priests, who are by definition male, so there might be some men that one could add to that mix. But on the other hand, [00:09:00] we know that some of the people he prosecuted, he ended up banishing rather than executing. So you could take some people away from the equation. And then there is the final thing that is really important to my wider story, is that this witchcraft commission that was sent from Bordeaux In 1609 to deal with this witchcraft problem, and which operated for about four months, that's only one part of the story, like in my book, it's like the middle part.
Jan Machielsen: And what I try to show is that you're actually, there's already witch hunting happening before they call in these outside judges. And actually, after they leave, there's evidence of vigilante justice and people lynching suspected witches. My own estimate is that there is probably about a hundred victims, but that's based not on any clear mathematics. It's really just when you take together the bits and pieces of evidence that we have.
Jan Machielsen: I think that's still a significant number. [00:10:00] It's more than Salem, but it's also,it can also point to some German witch hunts where about a thousand people died. By that count, it's a noticeable number, but it's not exceptionally big by comparative European standards.
Sarah Jack: And was there a lot of confessing that happened with the accused?
Jan Machielsen: So with the testimony that we have,we have quite a few accusations by children that are an important part of this witch hunt.These children were in all likelihood not charged. I think there's one case whereone of these children said the wrong thing and then ended up being executed as a witch. Basically what happened is that they claimed to be taken to the Sabbath by witches, which made them valuable witnesses to use against witches, [00:11:00] and then one of them accidentally said, "Oh yes, but sometimes I went on my own." And that meant that she clearly was not actually taken against her will. And then rather tragically, when she was then on the scaffolds and realized, "Oh my God, I'm being killed too," she said, "No, no, no, I made it all up." And at that point, it was too late. So that makes it actually rather difficult to say how many of the actual accused witches confessed.
Jan Machielsen: Pierre de Lancre really valued the testimony of this particular girl, because he says, witches really rarely confess. But of course,she never thought of herself as a witch. She thought of herself as a witness. So most of the testimony that we have, particularly from Pierre de Lancre's account, comes from children and teenagers who act as accusers rather than the confessions of witches.
Jan Machielsen: But there are definitely some of them in the book. There is one particular moving example of, Pierre de Lancre does not name her, he describes her as a 40-year-old witch from Biarritz, Biarritz is a small town, and it's a seaside resort now on the Basque [00:12:00] coast. But back then it was a small seaside village and there was this, Pierre de Lancre describes this 40-year-old witch like crying and hitting her head against his desk, being so upset about what was happening. So there is some testimony there,but the bulk of the material that we have comes from accused, as well, than from witches.
Josh Hutchinson: And how were those who were convicted, how were they executed?
Jan Machielsen: So Pierre de Lancre doesn't bother to tell or describe the method of execution. I think we can take it for granted that they would be burned. It is possible, I would hope so, hopefully, likely, that they might have been strangled before their bodies were burned. That was common practice in French legal procedure at the time, for reasons that it makes it, makes the whole execution a bit more orderly and a bit more seemly. Sorry, that sounds really grim to say it in that way. [00:13:00] We have one example that he gives where a witch is executed by burning, but at that moment, a toad escapes from her body, and toads are also in the Basque country particularly associated with witchcraft, and he says that at that stage, the public gets so outraged that they start throwing stones at the dying person. And from that, I think it's, it is clear that there is death by burning.
Jan Machielsen: But that's about as close to him bothering to describe anything. As a source, he's really not interested in telling us anything in terms of chronology or detail. What he wants to convey is what he's discovered, which is the world of the Sabbath. And the book is really basically a extended description of the Witches' Sabbath, which he cobbled together from quotations from the witnesses that he had interviewed.
Sarah Jack: What was a Sabbat? And how did his [00:14:00] differ from other European Sabbats?
Jan Machielsen: Partly because of Pierre de Lancre, the Witches' Sabbath has always been associated with the Basque. In his, the second edition of his famous book, he even commissioned a Paris engraver to include an engraving of what the Witches' Sabbath looks like, which is quite an interesting thing to think about, because the Witches' Sabbath takes place at night, only witches are meant to be there, or witches and these witnesses then taken against their will, but in theory only witches are meant to be there and the devil, and it should not be accessible to normal, biased Christian eyes.
Jan Machielsen: And it's only really accessible to the judges, through the testimony of those who went there, and, and yet here, Pierre de Lancre even includes in engraving depicting what it is meant to have looked like. And Pierre de Lancre is really obsessed by the Sabbath, like when he finds out locations where the [00:15:00] Sabbath is meant to have been held, he goes there just to see if he can find any evidence. He claims at one point that he found from a marking that he can found where the pot of the witch's Sabbath, where the poisons and potions were cooked, that he couldn't find the pot where the Sabbath was held.So the Sabbath is really, really associated with the Basque Country, and that's also because the testimony that Pierre de Lancre then gathers up about the Sabbath is much more sensational than any other Sabbath testimony gathered from anywhere else.
Jan Machielsen: Stories about the Witches' Sabbath are often quite commonplace, but one story that you might know and that your listeners might know is that witches were meant to consume the bodies of dead babies at the Sabbath. But what the Basques do is that apparently they go into cemeteries and dig up the bodies of dead witches and that the devil gives them special [00:16:00] dentures, so that at the Sabbath they can eat the bodies of dead witches. So there's a lot of really bizarre graphic detail that's really highly unusual, and there's nothing really similar to it in what survives of sort of European Sabbath narratives.
Josh Hutchinson: That engraving is rather incredible of everything with all the different panels depicting everybody's different involvement. The children guarding the toads is probably my favorite piece of that.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah. Yeah. So I had a whole chapter in the book where, so basically I take every little fragment, every little vignette, and use it to decode the surviving testimony, then, and then by comparing the French material that Pierre de Lancre gathered up, we have the material that the Spanish inquisitors gathered up, you can actually see how much of this material comes from the Basque country. That's not to say that any of these stories were real, it's just is that [00:17:00] a lot of this is folkloric beliefs inside the Basque country.
Jan Machielsen: And that, to me, really explains why someone like Pierre de Lancre ended up writing this book, because he didn't arrive in the Basque Country with preconceived ideas that are that specific, like he presumably had read his Malleus Maleficarum before traveling to the Basque Country. Certainly, he knows books like the Malleus and Martin Delrio's book,the person I wrote on before I worked on Pierre de Lancre. He certainly knows those books, but then he arrives in the Basque Country, and then he has all these witnesses tell him these extraordinary stories that, you know, that as he himself said were never reported in any of the literature that he'd read.
Jan Machielsen: And that's part of his motivation to write his book is basically to show his readers look at what I found here, which is a very different, I think, reason for writing and what most authors or most historians have said about Pierre de Lancre, that he [00:18:00] wrote this book as a way of justifying his witch hunt. So that's not what he is interested in. It's more like this is amazing material, and everyone needs to know about this.
Josh Hutchinson: You wrote about a debate that was going on about whether the Sabbath was a real physical event or whether it was more an illusion or imaginary. Can you explain that?
Jan Machielsen: This is particularly the case in Spain, inside the Spanish Inquisition. And that the Spanish inquisitors really argued amongst themselves whether or not the Sabbath that they were exploring, whether or not that was a real thing or whether or not it was entirely imaginary, and when I say imaginary, I mean that what they were wondering whether or not had happened or whether or not the devil made them think it happened,and that if the devil made them think it happened, so for instance, they were sleeping, and in their sleep, the devil made them think that they traveled to the Sabbath, whether or not these people were then [00:19:00] still legally responsible. Are you still a witch if you dream that you went to the Sabbath, rather than if you actually flew to the Sabbath from on a goat, and these are the types of like really vexing legal questions that the Inquisition, in particular, got really obsessed by. And on the Spanish side, it really seems that those types of debates ultimately frustratedany further action against the witches.
Jan Machielsen: Pierre de Lancre seems not to be interested in this at all. For him, the Sabbathwas a real thing, andwitches deserve to die for going to the Sabbath, but the Spanish Inquisition is a very bureaucraticinstitution. It's also very legally minded. They were also saying, "we cannot prosecute these refugees from France, these people accused of witchcraft who fled into Spain, because they haven't committed any witchcraft here in Spain," which is quite a fun sort of thing to think [00:20:00] about, if you think about it, becauseif you made a pact with the devil, why does it matter that you made a pact with the devil in France as opposed to Spain? But that is the sort of like legal consideration that they really thought about in the Inquisition.
Sarah Jack: And is there anything we need to understand about the French legal framework with witch trials?
Jan Machielsen: That's a really good question, because it gets to the reason why Pierre de Lancre was sent in. The thing about the French legal system is that it's highly bureaucratic in a different way and that they have lots of appeals processes. And that if you are accused of witchcraft or of any other crime, then there would be a trial in Bayonne, but that trial could then be appealed to Bordeaux.
Jan Machielsen: In Bordeaux, you'd have maybe 15 judges looking over your case, and all of those judges needed paying. [00:21:00] And one of the things that's so interesting about the surviving material, the few surviving archival materials, is that a lot of them are invoices and a lot of them are like account books, listing the costs and it really brings out the high cost of French justice.
Jan Machielsen: So one of the reasons then why the Basque communities on the French side really wanted this outside commission was because it would make witch hunting a lot cheaper, because it meant that you didn't have to transport your witches from the Basque Country to Bordeaux, which was about a five days travel at the time,and you wouldn't have to house them and feed them there. You wouldn't have to pay all of those judges, you only needed to pay the two judges on your witchcraft commission. There were actually some strong financial motives for creating a witchcraft commission, because it meant that they could act, the judges could act in the Basque country, and they could act without any possibility of [00:22:00] appeal.So the main thing to notice about the French side is it's just like the high cost of justice in France.
Josh Hutchinson: The commission you mentioned before, they worked for four months. How were they able to work so much more quickly than regular justice?
Jan Machielsen: There are a few factors there, I think. The main thing is that, that there was no possibility of appeal. And this is something that the Bordeaux Parlement, which is the court that Pierre de Lancre himself was part of, that's the appeals court in Bordeaux, the Bordeaux Parlement really resisted registering the King Henry IV's edict setting up this witchcraft commission, because I think they were like, we want to get paid? And it can be maybe that, yeah, it can be that crude. So the fact that there was no longer any forms of appeal meant that they could act more quickly. The fact that they literally traveled from community to community. And I don't know [00:23:00] how accurate or complete my reconstruction has been, but like looking at these invoices and comparing it with dates that Pierre de Lancre casually mentioned, I've been able to create a map as to where they were at any given point in time, I think. And then you can get a sense as to they travel to a village, they would prosecute the witches there, and then they would execute them there, and then they would move on to the next village. And that obviously went a lot quicker than having to send all of those witches and the witnesses accusing them, sending all of them to Bordeaux. And therefore, it's quite plausible to me that they actually did end up executing 50, 60, maybe morepeople in that four months period.
Sarah Jack: You had mentioned that there was a history of witchcraft accusations in the Basque Country.
Jan Machielsen: How is that a perfect expression of the conflicts there?
Jan Machielsen: So a [00:24:00] big part of my argument about this witch hunt is that it's really significant that it took place in a border region. France and Spain in the early 17th century were the two major European powers, and they were almost always at war with one another. Spain at the time had a vast empire, and of course, from an American context, you will know about the Spanish Empire in the Americas. But in Europe, the kings of Spain were also the dukes of Milan, so northern Italy. They also were in charge of what was then called the Spanish Netherlands, which is now Belgium. There were a number of territories to the east of France that owed their allegiance to Spain. So as you can see that Spain almost encircled France at that time. So Spain and France did not reallyget along, and the Basque Country in particular, the [00:25:00] town of, city of Bayonne really is like the entry point between France and Spain, because France and Spain are separated by the Pyrenees.
Jan Machielsen: So this tiny territory of the Pays de Labourd is part of the Basque country that is in France. It's like the first French line of defense against Spain, which makes it really importantfor the French monarchy that people in the Pays de Labourd are all happy and harmonious and working together, just in case the Spanish invade.
Jan Machielsen: But what then also happens is that because of that, and because Paris is so far away, it also means that actually, it's very difficult for the kings of France to assert their authority in a territory like the Pays de Labourd, because they need to keep everyone happy. It's far away. How do youassert your authority?
Jan Machielsen: So there's actually, as a result, constant conflict between the communities and towns of the [00:26:00] Pays de Labourd, where they all argue about scarce resources and also between the nobles and the towns, where it's really clear that the towns are, by French standards, they have a lot of rights, they're incredibly independent, and the nobles are like, they look at what nobles in other parts of France are getting away with, and they're like, we want that too.
Jan Machielsen: So there's actually a lot of conflicts, and it's quite difficult to see how that conflict links to the witch hunt, except that it's clear that it did, in the sense that you can see how people from one faction accuse other people from the opposite faction of witchcraft. So again, there is maybe a parallel there with some of the stuff that's been written about Salem.
Jan Machielsen: But I think it's really important to say that we should never see witchcraft accusations as just a tool of, a cynical tool of accusing the other. I think it's also very natural to believe the worst of an enemy and that if you [00:27:00] are engaged in a long-running dispute that you would be willing to believe that your enemy would make a pact with the devil.
Jan Machielsen: But these conflicts are really gradually tearing this territory apart, and actually then sending a group of commissioners in from the outside, seems like the best way of solving this problem. But then, of course,one of the commissioners is Pierre de Lancre, and he is a rather sex-crazed maniac, who is fascinated by the devil. So he's rather the wrong person to sort out the many different conflicts that exist in this territory.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. On the subject you got into at the end, his sex obsession.
Josh Hutchinson: What's the deal with that? Why was he so utterly obsessed with the sex lives of especially the beautiful women and the teenagers?
Jan Machielsen: It's really rather striking [00:28:00] isn't it? When you read his descriptions, he constantly like talks about how bewitching the Basque women are. And he also really represents the Basque country as a feminine space. And to some extent, he's actually justified by doing that because the main economic foundation of the Basque Country is fishing and whaling. And so the menfolk are all off. Actually, some of them go as far away as like the Canadian Maritimes to go hunt for whales.So in Pierre de Lancre's imagination, that means that the women and old men and priests are just all that's left in the Basque country. And, as a result, the devil finds it very easy to infiltrate this space and seduce the women. So yeah, so the Basque Country and its women folk are clearly like an obsession of his. And he describes the Basque women and their dress, that included two contemporary engravings of Basque [00:29:00] women and how they dressed, and it's quite unusual. So if people buy the book, they can look at some images there. So it's clearly taken by how they looked.
Jan Machielsen: I think there is also maybean important factor here that he doesn't speak Basque. He uses interpreters, so he cannot actually get to what these people are saying except, through an interpreter, but he can scrutinize the bodies ofthe witnesses and witches, and they give him some sort of like direct access to this demonic story that the testimony in some sense doesn't.
Jan Machielsen: So I think there are a number of factors there that sort of come together. But yeah, as I write in the book, we know he has an illegitimate son, so it's he's already married to his wife. So there is definitely evidence that he is a bit of a sex pest. Let's put it that way, the very least.
Sarah Jack: [00:30:00] These demonology books and their authors, other men were reading these, other people, other authorities involved in convicting witches were reading these. And so I just think that impact must have really trickled through the communities, the world, the ages.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah,it's interesting cause there is actually a relatively, contemporary German translation of Pierre de Lancre's book, and it has the sort of the, I think quite revealing,title of The Wonderful Secrets of Witches, and that sort of I think really like testifies to what Pierre de Lancre is revealing here is like this exotic,often quite sexually explicit, like he also talks a great length about the size and shape of the devil's penis,like this really like a strange, remarkable worldthat he's uncovered.
Jan Machielsen: But it's also like fair to say that the Tableau, which, so that's the main text that Pierre de Lancre writes, it goes only through two editions. So it's not the Malleus [00:31:00] Maleficarum, where it's not Martin Delrio's Disquisitiones, like it's, as far as early modern demonological texts goes, it's actually not really quite a bestseller. So it's quite, and I don't quite, can't quite explain why it wasn't more successful at the time.
Jan Machielsen: But at the same time, Pierre de Lancre keeps on writing about witches. So after his Tableau, he writes two more books about witches, the last, apparently for his own personal entertainment, and that's literally what the contract with the publisher says, and it's only, it was only printed in 40 copies, and therefore only three or four copies still survive to this day, but if you put all the pages of those books together, you get to about 1700 pages about witches and demons and other sort of related supernatural things. And that does make him, I would argue, I haven't found anyone [00:32:00] else, maybe in response to this interview, someone will come up with a counter example. But I think he may very well be the person who has filled the most pages on demonology in the entire early modern period, because 1700 pages is a lot.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, when books of that time were generally pretty short, that, these were some real opuses.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah, very much Yeah.

Jan Machielsen: The only other thing I would bring up is that I also want to spend some time about the way this witch hunt ends, because I think often people think that witch hunting ends once the witch hunter packs up his bag and leaves. And that's like the traditional story that has been told about the witch hunt in the Basque Country. It's like Pierre de Lancre and his colleague, their four months are over, they return to Bordeaux, and then that's [00:33:00] that, basically. Butthe evidence that survived shows that there is substantial panic about witches persisting in the Basque Countryacross the 1610s, almost like a full decade after the judges leave, there's still people being panicked about witches, people going to, visiting missionaries and confess that they were witches.There's lots of stuff still happening. So my book doesn't end in 1609, my book ends in 1619, and it ends there because it's at that moment where I think that the witch hunt really ends, because one thing that happens with the border is that there is another group of refugees, but this time fleeing from Spain into France rather than witches fleeing from France into Spain. And these refugees are religious refugees. They are new Christians, so these are people whose ancestors have been forced to [00:34:00] convert from Judaism and Islam, but were suspected by the Inquisition of having reverted to the faith of their ancestors. And they flee across the border and obviously the Basque country, because it's just across the border, is a place where a lot of them settle. And it seems like a lot of these fears about witches are displaced. They're moved from witches to these new, these refugees.
Jan Machielsen: And in 1619, one of these refugees, a Portuguese woman called Caterina Fernandez, ends up being lynched by a mob in the small town of Saint-Jean-de-Luz, and the way that event is described, to me, sounds very similar to the fears that surround witches a decade earlier.We can have a really, I think, interesting discussion as well, as to like, how do witch hunts end? Because I don't think they end simply because a judge leaves. Because they cause so much [00:35:00] panic in the territory and that lingered. And I think those fears were transferred onto another group of victims who were then ultimately cast out and expelled from the Basque country.
Sarah Jack: I'm really glad that you wanted to speak about that. It's, your book really is going to expand people's understanding of humans and witchcraft fears put on innocent people. But I think the ending thing, they haven't ended in our world, and they don't just have that final chapter. So we do need to get there, but it, when you. Thank you for sharing that, because it's an example of how communities have that panic. And it doesn't just, it's not just over because the judge left, as you said, and how that fear can be transferred.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah, as [00:36:00] I write in my epilogue, I didn't want to write a full conclusion, but I wrote a short epilogue. But as I write there, I think witchcraft is still with us, right? I think previous historians even just five or ten years ago, people would, those historians would all be writing about witchcraft as a thing that's like in the past. And yet, I think these days, I think we're so much more aware about how there are different ways in which people think about witches, like how witchcraft was fuelled by fears about the other that transcends like just the category of witch and how conspiracy theories are not something that is just, just belong to the past. They are very much present in the present as well. And we should never see these stories as I think the witch hunt has often been portrayed as a story of like reason triumphing over superstition. Because that's not how these witch hunts ended.
Jan Machielsen: There is, at least the Basque Witch Hunt did not [00:37:00] end because people woke up and looked around and thought to themselves like, what are we doing? It's like it seems to have ended in a form of transference of fears of one group of outsiders to another group of outsiders. And it seems to have ended because of an act of like popular violence rather than like an act of radical enlightenment of whatever shape. And I think that's probably true for the witch huntwrit large in the early modern period. I don't think witchcraft beliefs were ever defeated by rational argument.
Josh Hutchinson: Right, that whole enlightenment ended the witch trials narrative has prevailed for a long time, and I'm finding myself growing out of that, that realizing that witch trials just went underground and became these extrajudicial actions, and that has continued around the [00:38:00] world.
Jan Machielsen: Yes, a colleague of mine here in the UK, Bill Pooley, who's at the University of Bristol, I don't know if you've had a chance to interview him yet, but he works on witchcraft beliefs in 19th century France, and there you can see how it's, it's no longer than like the witches who appear in front of a judge. It is people who have killed witches who appear in front of judges. And then in many instances, actually, it's like they are let go or they're released, or there's a jury who refuses to convict.The story of like how the witch hunt ends is a story that is continuing in the present day, I think, and it's not a story that has a very neat and uplifting ending either.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Certainly not yet.
Jan Machielsen: Yeah. I think that we're all working towards that ending though in one way or another. I think that's one of the really important ways that your podcast contributes to those [00:39:00] discussions.
Sarah Jack: Thank you. I. It is uplifting to see that from academics and from people who are literally advocating and rescuing folks, there's space for this conversation now, and there's lots of conversation to have. Looking at the history gives us an opportunity to ask important questions about humanity, ones that are, questions that are relevant today that were relevant then too so thanks for. Your book is so enjoyable to read. it really brought questions to mind of other witch hunt histories that I read and study on. So I just, it's a really great tool, but it tells a story that people need to hear about the Basque Country and its people as well. Thank you.
Jan Machielsen: Well, thank you so much again for having me. It's been a real pleasure to speak to the two of you and it's also been an honor to [00:40:00] be invited onto this podcast, because I know you've interviewed quite a number of very famous people already. So it's, it's honor, it's an honor to join that particular list as well.
Jan Machielsen: So
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. And, when is your book available and how can people get their hands on it?
Jan Machielsen: It's on sale now. I haven't checked the price in dollars, but I think in, at least in pounds and euros, it's quite reasonably priced. I'm hoping that it would reach a wider audience and that people who are interested in finding out more about the Basque Witch Hunts and try and, as the two of you did, try and place that into a wider history,that they'll be interested in in buying it. Yeah, I'm not sure it will hit every bookstore in, in the world, but it's certainly accessible on all the major online retailers at a, I think, a quite affordable price.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Jan. Now Mary Bingham returns with an all new Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Here is a brief [00:41:00] regarding three women over a span of 82 years, all accused of witchcraft, who boldly defended themselves, standing in the truth and though they knew that death was their outcome.
Mary Bingham: María de Echachute, from Navarre, northern Spain, repeatedly denied that she was a witch, though making a false confession would have most likely resulted in a pardon for her. Maria paid with her life in 1610.
Mary Bingham: Ann Hibbins, a well-educated woman who was tried twice and boldly declared her innocence. Ann was hanged at Boston Neck in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1656.
Mary Bingham: Mary Esty, a pillar in her Topsfield, Massachusetts community, was arrested, released, and then yet arrested again in 1692. She never wavered while being badgered by the magistrates, even authoring two petitions, [00:42:00] one advising the magistrates how to proceed with the trials after her death.
Mary Bingham: The strength of character of these three women is inspiring beyond anything that I could ever imagine. Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And now Sarah has this week's edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: On our End Witch Hunts news segment today, we're highlighting a crucial human rights issue affecting persons with albinism. The Africa Albinism Network is campaigning to have sunscreen added to the World Health Organization's essential medicines list. This campaign is driven by compelling evidence from the 2023 report by Maluka Ann Middy Drummond, the UN independent expert on the enjoyment of human rights by persons with albinism.
Sarah Jack: Her findings underscore a critical truth. For people with albinism, sunscreen isn't merely a cosmetic luxury, it's a vital, life-saving medical [00:43:00] necessity that can significantly extend and enhance their quality of life. We strongly support the rights and protection of persons with albinism. Ending their persecution and ensuring their safety is fundamental to upholding human dignity and rights. Making sunscreen more accessible by including it on the world Health Organization's essential Medicines List would significantly improve affordability and access for those who need it most. Do you want to learn about this issue or get directly involved in supporting persons with albinism? Here's an excellent opportunity. On Thursday, October 24th, at 2 p. m. GMT time, there's an important webinar you should know about. Sunscreen as Essential Medicine, a Climate Justice Webinar. It's being hosted by CBM Global Disability Inclusion, the Africa Albinism Network, the Fund for Global Human Rights, and Climate Action Network Europe. This virtual event will dive into the crucial campaign to add sunscreen to WHO's essential medicines [00:44:00] list for persons with albinism, framing it as both a human rights and climate justice issue. You can learn how you can actively support this vital campaign. It's a chance to engage in a critical conversation on human rights and climate justice, particularly for one of the most vulnerable populations affected by climate change.
Sarah Jack: We've included the registration link in our show notes. Remember, your participation can make a real difference in this important cause. Recently, Josh and I had the privilege of meeting and engaging with Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond at the Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference in Lancaster. During our interactions, we gained valuable insightsinto the critical importance of ensuring the enjoyment of human rights by persons with albinism. Muluka-Anne's expertise and passion for this cause left a lasting impression on us. Following the conference, she shared a powerful statement that directly relates to our End Witch Hunts mission.
Sarah Jack: She said, quote, "This week, I was at Lancaster University attending a conference on the UN resolution on the elimination of [00:45:00] harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks. Around the world, people continue to lose their lives and livelihoods due to witchcraft accusations, or in the case of persons with albinism, for example, witchcraft-related practices. Ultimately, whether you believe in witchcraft or not, it cannot be denied that people are dying because of it.And we cannot continue to relegate the topic to the aisles of history and fiction while the rights of so many are violated," end quote.
Sarah Jack: Our conversation with Muluka-Anne reinforced our understanding that protecting the rights of persons with albinism is not just a matter of policy but a fundamental aspect of human dignity. It's clear that addressing harmful practices and ensuring full human rights for persons with albinism are interconnected and crucial goals.
Sarah Jack: How will you use your unique skills, authority, agency, and platform to advocate for persons with albinism? Your collaboration is needed now.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah. [00:46:00]
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us every week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

October 15, 2024

Witch Hunt Podcast Goes to England to Speak about Ending Witch Hunts

Join Sarah and Josh as they talk about their recent experiences at two dynamic UK conferences focused on witchcraft and human rights. In this fun and reflective episode, our hosts share the insights gained from the York CREMS Magic and Witchcraft Conference 2024 and the Lancaster “Witchcraft and Human Rights: Past, Present, Future” conference, which centered on the implementation of United Nations Resolution 47/8. Learn about the presentations Sarah and Josh delivered for their nonprofit, End Witch Hunts, including talks on the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, the End Spiritual and Ritual Abuse (SARA) data collection project, and the World Without Witch Hunts Project. Our hosts share about the fascinating research and presentations of the other experts in the field, which offered experienced perspectives on both historical and contemporary issues surrounding witchcraft accusations. Get up to speed on the current status of implementing Resolution 47/8, which addresses human rights violations related to witchcraft accusations and ritual attacks. This episode showcases how these conferences bring together a diverse group of historians, human rights advocates, legal experts, and social scientists in a collaborative effort to combat ongoing witchcraft-related human rights abuses. Whether you’re a history enthusiast, a human rights advocate, or simply curious about this often-overlooked global issue, this first hand report promises to broaden your understanding of the intersection between history, human rights, and modern efforts to end witch hunts worldwide.

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Links

⁠Buy America Bewitched Book by Owen Davies⁠

⁠Wolfgang Behringer, Witches and Witch Hunts: A Global History⁠

⁠United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks ⁠

⁠Papua New Guinea Sorcery and Witchcraft Accusation-Related Violence National Action Plan⁠

⁠Pan African Parliament Guidelines for Addressing Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks⁠

⁠Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization⁠

⁠Donate to Our UK Conference Trip to speak and learn about ending witch hunts⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria⁠

⁠The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠Zoom Event World Day Against Witch Hunts 10th August, 2024.⁠

⁠International Alliance to End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠IK Ero On Next Steps For Ending Witch Hunts TINAAWAHP⁠

⁠Sanguma: Everybody’s Business⁠

⁠Justice for Witches, Pardon Campaign⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project⁠

⁠Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project⁠

⁠Maryland Witches Exoneration Project⁠

⁠Witch Hunt Website

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast where for the last two years, we've been talking to you about witch trial history and contemporary witch hunts, known as harmful practices. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. In fact, this week is our second anniversary as a podcast. And
Sarah Jack: this is the episode where we're going to talk about the conferences we were able to attend in England in September.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. We've come a long way since our first episode about Connecticut witch trial history. Now we've become advocates in this sphere working with others to raise awareness and bring an end to harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft, where basically people accuse someone of bewitching them or their family or their possessions and then attack them.
Josh Hutchinson: On this trip, we were able to meet for the first time, at least [00:01:00] 11 of our incredible guests who we have featured on previous episodes. We got to talk to them in person and it was amazing.
Josh Hutchinson: It really was. There's something very different about meeting somebody in person versus just talking to them over Zoom and emails.
Sarah Jack: For those of you who podcast or guest, there is an affinity in the podcasting community. You feel like friends when you meet someone who has podcasting experience, or it's their hobby or their profession. And meeting our guests was much like that.
Josh Hutchinson: Was amazing. It was so great to meet people from all around the world, many different nations on most of the continents. And just being in one place with all these brilliant minds, these great thinkers was quite a treat.
Sarah Jack: Let's tell our listeners about how we met our [00:02:00] guests.
Josh Hutchinson: Let's do that. We started with a conference at the University of York, the Magic and Witchcraft Conference sponsored by the Center for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies. And it was quite brilliant. The theme was healing and health from antiquity to 1850. Right from the start of our getting into York, we had such a great experience in that city.
Sarah Jack: We came in on a train. We hopped into a taxi and our accommodations were contemporary, but when you walk out the door and you hit the cobblestone, it was like walking back in time on our way to the university.
Josh Hutchinson: We got to pass through the fabulous road called the Shambles, which has the Shambles Market.
Josh Hutchinson: Used to be the road where they laid out all the meats, [00:03:00] the butchers laid out all their finest cuts of meat, and today it's still a busy shopping and tourist hub and an active outdoor market.
Josh Hutchinson: Well, we passed through the shambles, which is a medieval street. So the buildings are authentic going back centuries. It's quite different coming from the United States, especially the Western United States, where our oldest buildings that we have we are from,the mid 20th century in most of our towns, to go to a place that has 2000 years of history that York has since Roman times. It was quite remarkable. One of the big attractions there is York Minster, which is a very large cathedral and very impressive looking Gothic structure with all of those pointy [00:04:00] things and the gargoyles and the whole bit.
Sarah Jack:
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And we also were able to pass through the old city gates in the ancient city wall that again, dates back, the original walls go back to Roman times, but were improved upon many times over the centuries. So what's there today is mostly Norman, I believe, and post Norman, but it's still very ancient, hundreds of years old. Some of the positions there, the actual structures, were first in place in Roman times back in the early first millennium.
Sarah Jack: Passing all of these very special landmarks brought us to the University of York where our conference was.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We went to lovely King's Manor, just got to see this amazing, it has [00:05:00] this beautiful ornate crest above the door that, we'll have to put up a picture here so you can see what I'm talking about.
Josh Hutchinson: But yeah, it's quite,it makes it seem like you're going into the King's Manor. It does feel that way.
Sarah Jack: And you'll see the excitement on our face in this selfie that we took.
Sarah Jack: It was a very lovely experience there.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was so fun walking up this very short staircase to a second floor and walking into a classroom, knowing that our friends were going to be in there prepping for their own presentations. It was great. We stood around and greeted each other and drank some coffee and the conference started.
Josh Hutchinson: We got to meet in person, Debora Moretti, Tabitha Stanmore, Javier Garcia Oliva, and Helen Hall. You'll recognize those four as previous [00:06:00] guests that have been on this podcast. And we were in a room with all of them and got to listen to their talks and they got to listen to us and it was just a remarkable experience.
Josh Hutchinson: And we also met future guests.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, it was a great conference. There was an online audience as well as in person attendees, and it was a great day, it flew by so quickly.
Josh Hutchinson: It was so fun learning about healing and healers, different magical practices and beliefs about healing over time, especially,we learned, literally, like it says, from antiquity to 1850, covered the whole time period in between, and was amazing. And then we got to talk.
Sarah Jack: In our presentation at this first conference, we talked about the [00:07:00] beginnings of End Witch Hunts, the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and our podcast.
Josh Hutchinson: We also got to talk about our other projects going on in Massachusetts and Connecticut and the wonderful project happening in the state of Maryland.
Josh Hutchinson: So we got to talk about what's going on in America as far as remembering past victims from historical trials.
Sarah Jack: And we got to speak about our involvement, and especially Mary Bingham's involvement, in the BOLD project, Building Opportunities for Lives and Dignities, which is running in the Jharkhand state in India, which is bringing a holistic solution to ending harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and also supporting the survivors of [00:08:00] these accusations.
Sarah Jack: And we're looking forward to future episodes where we talk about that project much more.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
Josh Hutchinson: One of the things that I enjoyed about this conference, listening to the academic research, and then when we had our opportunity to present, having things come to mind that I'd heard that day in somebody's paper that matches what's happening right now in communities in different countries. It just really was like this. When we're in an episode and we hearin our conversation, oh, this really matches something we learned in a previous episode. But then when you like go to a conference and the subject matter is just enveloping everything that's still happening. And you just see the continuous, there's it wasn't hard to point [00:09:00] out, well, let me tell you, these things are still happening. It was unfortunately, so easy because it, there were all these examples and, just, we're listening to it. So we were just really able to discuss how, what they are researching and how important it is to understanding even the modern framework of some hunts that are still happening. Yeah. Learning about traditional healers of the past and cunning folk, those sorts of professions that occurred in the medieval period, the early modern period, and learning that, you're realizing that those professions are still around today and still involved in witchcraft accusations as they had been previously, both occasionally being accused, but [00:10:00] not so often themselves, but being used in counter magic and for the detection of witches.
Sarah Jack: When we started this podcast two years ago, there were conversations happening on university campuses, in historical society meetings, at local libraries, and in books and blogs. But over the last two years, this podcast has really made a space for the conversations and it just, I really felt that. The podcast has helped to bring together this network of academics and advocates who talk in this space and being at a conference, which was another forum where networking is able to happen was very,well, it's insightful getting chunks [00:11:00] of everybody's mind.
Sarah Jack: In our talk, in addition to talking about healing and medicinal associations with witchcraft accusations in the contemporary world, we also talked about methods to potentially eliminate those harmful practices from happening in the first place.
Josh Hutchinson: And so what we talked about was the need for a holistic approach with a focus on the conditions that allow witch hunts to occur so that you can cut them off at the source, instead of treating the symptoms of the problem, treat the root cause, pull it out by those roots, and toss it.
Sarah Jack: And that includes addressing economic conditions and creating social safety nets for communities. Often, accusations [00:12:00] are happening to families that are experiencing life-changing misfortune that is unexplainable, and so when you address the infrastructure.
Josh Hutchinson: Addressing those underlying economic conditions that lead to the great poverty, which is a big factor in witch hunting. It's one of the sort of prerequisites. You need some bad things basically to be happening in somebody's life in order for them to kind of resort to making a witchcraft accusation and you need them to have no recourse. When people don't have any recourse, there's no insurance system for crop failures, there's no safety net to catch them if the bottom falls out from them economically, it's very easy for that person to want to blame something [00:13:00] or at least seek a cause. Why did this misfortune happen to me? What can I do about it?
Josh Hutchinson: Where when you have these safety nets and insurance mechanisms, then people are compensated when misfortune happens, and they're not down to that last straw. So these things need to be a big part of it. And just addressing worldwide economic conditions is of course a concern anyways.
Sarah Jack: The things you just heard Josh touching on, those probably sound familiar to you if you've been listening to historical witch trial stories, but also we're finding the same influences now.
Josh Hutchinson: If you listen to anything we've done about Salem or Connecticut or England, Ireland, the same underlying conditions were [00:14:00] part of the problem. Economic conditions, as we know from contemporary life, are one of the key stressors in anybody's life. Andso economic conditions, the fear of losing everything, the actually having that happen to you to where you lose everything and have no support.
Josh Hutchinson: Another area that needs to be addressed is climate change. That is actually intensifying both droughts and storms that can kill livestock and crops, and in turn, the people who rely upon those livestock and crops. And that needs to be addressed, and the economics, and you've got to tackle the refugee crisis as well.
Josh Hutchinson: I read recently, there's some millions of people in [00:15:00] transit right now in refugee status, and you do havea lot of people crammed into these refugee camps and you don't know each other, bad things are happening to people, and it just creates another climate for witchcraft accusations.
Sarah Jack: Another area of importance is to raise awareness about the consequences of witchcraft accusations and about laws that may be on the books. In several nations, there are laws against making witchcraft accusations, but those laws aren't widely enforced or known about. And one of the very important things is that change needs to come from communities locally and through community members raising awareness with each [00:16:00] other, having these difficult conversations that need to be had about witchcraft beliefs, and are there other explanations for what happens when bad things happen?
Sarah Jack: And for the communities where there is legislation in place to protect victims, educating them on what their course of action can be or what their rights would be for seeking justice and protection.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, so it's very important that advocates work with the local community and with local politicians and religious leaders andthe police force and everyone.
Sarah Jack: Number of accusations arise because of insufficient healthcare treatment and insufficient understanding of healthcare. So this is something that [00:17:00] we talked about at this health and healing conference was the need to provide healthcare in underserved areas. So people don't rely on unlicensed diviners who will then identify witches. And well, traditional healers provide a very valuable service in the communities that they serve. They're often the only people with any sort of a medical background. But they need to be trained on certain fundamental disease diagnoses to understand basic conditions and know when to refer somebody to another doctor. Instead of at the end, you get to the point of, well, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. So maybe [00:18:00] it's witchcraft. Instead of that, you want to get to, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. Here's another doctor that you can go to, or that we can call into our community. Maybe they come around periodically. But there just, there needs to be that health care. There needs to be that option for the second opinion. And people need to know about basic conditions and not be afraid of them.
Sarah Jack: That also would have helped during the Salem Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: Would have definitely helped Dr. Griggs or whichever physician it actually was who diagnosed Betty Parris and Abigail Williams as under an evil hand.
Sarah Jack: There's always connections. There's always connections.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, so many of these communities, while we're on this,remote communities, especially rural communities. And we see this here in America. We see this everywhere. [00:19:00] Rural communities, just the distances between where people are and where healthcare is, are often put people at an extreme disadvantage.
Josh Hutchinson: And you can't timely get to see a doctor with the knowledge of the condition that you have. So there just needs to be better access to these remote communities. There needs to be more facilities nearby, ambulance services. police services need improvement in a lot of remote areas, because again, the local constabulary might be understaffed, or it might be a great distance that people can't travel to report an attack.
Josh Hutchinson: And then after the attacks or accusations happen, there needs to be support. There needs to be healing, therapy, counseling, everything that a [00:20:00] person who survives such an ordeal and is so traumatized by it, both physically and emotionally, everything that they need to be supported later in their lives, instead of just sending them off to witch camp, supposedly, so called witch camps or other refuge centers,allow these individuals to reestablish some kind of life in their new community. Understandably, in many situations, they can't go back to their old community, at least not very quickly, because the danger is still there that they're going to be reaccused and reattacked. But all the things that we take for granted in life, these individuals are being denied because of their being run out of their towns. They're being forced onto the road. They're [00:21:00] being forced to be jobless, homeless.So they need support so they can get back to sustaining themselves and finding value in themselves.
Sarah Jack: That was all conference number one, and we were getting ready to go to a two day conference in Lancaster that was all about the current state of this effort.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, the Lancaster conference began a week after the York conference and was hosted by Lancaster University and the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices, and it was an honor to be invited to be a part of it.
Sarah Jack: That those first moments walking up to the building, there's a gathering [00:22:00] of attendees. Some of us recognize each other or are familiar with some of the work. There was so much excitement to be standing there together and know we're going to walk in and tackle the situation together.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, this conference, the theme was about implementing UN Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8, which was passed in 2021. And finding ways to come together and compare notes and exchange ideas on how to eliminate these harmful practices that we've been talking about.
Sarah Jack: This was the type of conference where you had to, you wanted to get to every speaker. You wanted to find out what is this research or what is this experience or what is this [00:23:00] program that is getting rolled out? It was a robust gathering of information and people.
Josh Hutchinson: It was so robust. There were presentations occurring in two rooms simultaneously. So it was impossible to be able to take in everything individually, but Sarah and I being two of us were able to split up and each of us attend every event and every presentation that happened. And there were just so many great talks. It's impossible to cover them all in this episode, but we met people from Australia, Papua New Guinea, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Nigeria, India, so many places around the world.
Sarah Jack: England, of
Josh Hutchinson: course. [00:24:00] England was well represented.
Josh Hutchinson: During the conference, we were able to meet with our colleague and friend, Dr. Leo Igwe, who've you've heard on this podcast a couple of times talking about his experiences working against witch-hunting in Africa. And he received the
Josh Hutchinson: inaugural award from the International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. He was recognized, quote, "for his indefatigable work in advocating on behalf of alleged witches at both the global and the regional level, and in so doing, advancing the implementation of the Human Rights Council resolution on the elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks." End quote. Definitely a well-deserved award.
Sarah Jack: Yes, he was so humbled by [00:25:00] it.
Sarah Jack: So the honor was a complete surprise, and he just wants to save lives, and he gets up every day to do that. The conversations he has with colleagues or community leaders or accusers or victims, it's all to save lives and to get others to spring to action, as well. And that's why he got the award, because that is what he does.
Josh Hutchinson: Nonstop, indefatigably, as the award says, he's dedicated to this cause and just saving lives and also helping people once they've been affected by these accusations. He works with a lot of the survivors, helping them get restarted. What Leo does requires a certain amount of courage, as well. [00:26:00] He's putting himself in some vulnerable positions when he's interfacing with an angry mob, for example, or even the police who don't understand what his organization, Advocacy for Alleged Witches, is really about and think, Oh, these are witches meeting and we need to break this up.
Josh Hutchinson: So Leo's very brave. He's very dedicated, committed, very passionate about what he does and everybody loves him.
Sarah Jack: So we attended great talks in the morning, and then it was our turn to come up and give a presentation on spiritual and ritual abuse of how it affects children in the United States of America.
Sarah Jack: That's our newest project. This is a data collection project, so right now, [00:27:00] the project is collecting specific cases of spiritual and ritual abuse that have occurred in the United States.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we talked about the project, we talked about our objectives and the challenges that we face and went over our methodology, which right now where the project is, we're searching the internet for these cases. And then once we identify a case of spiritual and ritual abuse, particularly one that's related to an accusation of witchcraft or spirit possession, we look into those more deeply, find out the jurisdiction handling the case and see what other records we can dig up on it.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. Everything that we are collecting is tied to criminal [00:28:00] charges or a criminal death, something that is heading to court.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, our main goal with the project is to use this data to raise awareness that there is a problem out there, that these aren't one off, isolated cases, there are beliefs that are behind, behind these cases that link them together. So we're looking just to collect the data and we talked about a few of the cases at the conference.
Sarah Jack: We talk about what spiritual abuse is on our World Day Against Witch Hunt episode.
Josh Hutchinson: We do, and we talk about it in our episode with Jordan Alexander. So go back and yeah, watch that one if you haven't already. That's a great episode.
Sarah Jack: And you've also [00:29:00] heard several minutes with Mary that have told stories of some of these victims.
Josh Hutchinson: This talk at Lancaster focused on children, but our research that we're doing is not limited to any age group or any other group of people, either as perpetrators or as the victims. We're not narrowing this down yet, we're just trying to collect as much data as possible so that we can present it to the media, to government agencies, to say, hey, let's get something going to try and fix this.
Josh Hutchinson: And then after lunch, we had another talk, we talked about mostly the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, but exoneration in general, as an opportunity to raise awareness of the ongoing problem with harmful practices [00:30:00] related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And then what was really impactful to me when we're at a conference like this, gathered with advocates in the regions that are seeing witch hunting happening, we don't have to describe or explain in any way the significance of exonerating the historically accused witches. They tell us how significant it is.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. It was wonderful to be there with Leo Igwe in the room when we were giving this presentation, and we were able to tell the story of how he came to Connecticut and spoke at the state capitol to legislators andthe next week ourexoneration legislation passed the Senate 33 to one, [00:31:00] a week after Leo gave that important talk and spoke with Dr. Senator Saud Anwar and Representative Jane Garibay about how meaningful this is in other parts of the world.
Sarah Jack: But the parts of the resolution that are historical, the naming of every known accused witch in Connecticut is in the legislation and an apology from the state.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, those are both the first of their kind, the first bill to name those who were indicted but not convicted, and the first of its kind in America to apologize for a witch trial. So it's very historic. We also got to talk about plans for a Connecticut memorial. And, uh, Day of Remembrance and [00:32:00] exonerations in other states.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. What's so great about this project is it's not just Josh and I and Mary, it's many of us. Our very first episode of this podcast, our guests were Beth Caruso and Tony Griego. They are longtime advocates for the Connecticut Witch Trials. We did join up with them, but it took many volunteers, local and nationally and internationally, as we mentioned, Leo getting to talk at the Capitol, but this remembrance, these remembrance efforts, there's still a large group of people coming together to work on this. So it's a great project and you are welcome to join us.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, please do. Absolutely.Dozens and dozens of people were involved in the Connecticut effort and are involved in ongoing remembrance efforts. It was also [00:33:00] during this panel that we were a part of, this series of three presentations. we were able to meet,previous guest Alice Markham-Cantor, who presented about her ancestor, Martha Carrier, who was convicted in the Salem witch trials. And we also met Charlotte Meredith of the Justice for Witches campaign in the UK.
Sarah Jack: The four of us really enjoyed speaking about pardons and exoneration and the experiences that we have in our ancestry.
Josh Hutchinson: And also that first day of the conference, there was a keynote by Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond, who is the current independent expert on the rights of persons with albinism for the United Nations, and she gave a wonderful talk about how to go forward, how to implement the resolution 47/8.
Josh Hutchinson: And you may be [00:34:00] wondering why the independent expert on the rights of persons with albinism was speaking at a witchcraft and human rights conference. And it's because many people around the world believe that persons with albinism have special magical properties in their bodies and collect body parts from persons with albinism for use in magical potions to bring luck or better health or prosperity, whatever the case may be, they're used in these magical concoctions.
Sarah Jack: Which means children with albinism and others are targets.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, their body parts are typically harvested while they're alive to increase the potency.
Josh Hutchinson: These are attacks that people are surviving, but not always. So the parts are taken while they're alive, and [00:35:00] many don't survive.
Josh Hutchinson: At the conference, there was talk about how many children with albinism are sent to boarding schools specifically for persons with albinism, so that they're safer than if they have to walk to a local school, where their predictable route to that school makes them especially vulnerable to an ambush style attack, and people taking them.
Sarah Jack: And I, I learned at the conference that it's believed at times that persons with albinism don't have a regular death, that they just disappear. And because of that belief, when some are taken and disappear, and have disappeared, there isn't an investigation looking for that person because it's accepted that they just vanished.
Josh Hutchinson: And persons with albinism are also believed to [00:36:00] variously bring you bad luck or good luck, depending on the nature of your interaction with them and where exactly you are with the person. Local belief is exactly shaking a hand with a person with albinism might be considered good luck in one place while walking by them in another place.
Josh Hutchinson: You might feel like you have to spit on yourself or on the ground, to purge yourself of whatever taint there is. It's very terrible.
Sarah Jack: And this is in any culture, in any family. There are persons with albinism in every place needing our protection and understanding.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. All around the world, every continent, there are persons living with albinism and
Josh Hutchinson: every person deserves dignity and the right to enjoy a [00:37:00] life with the fullest possible health and wellbeing that there can be.
Josh Hutchinson: I
Sarah Jack: Really enjoyed getting to speak with Muluka and seeing her and listening to all the conversations that she was having with the various advocates about all the different complex needs and the crises that are being faced in different communities. She was very tuned in and engaging.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, definitely learned a lot from her and the, there was a lively question and answer session at the end of that. Andjust continued to learn more. Everybody was so eager to talk about how do we implement this resolution.
Sarah Jack: That night we had a very special event that we got to [00:38:00] attend.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we went to an art gallery.
Sarah Jack: And Josh had award-winning photos that were a part of a international photo exhibit.
Josh Hutchinson: Yay. That's right. Three of my photos were privileged to be part of this terrific exhibit.
Sarah Jack: Witch Hunts in the 21st century: a Human Rights Catastrophe is traveling the world. It'll be in Lancaster, England for a few more weeks, and then it's traveling to different countries around the world. So people can interact with it and learn about the crisis that's going on right now.
Sarah Jack: If your university has an art gallery that would like to participate in a social justice photo exhibit, please reach out.
Josh Hutchinson: What were your [00:39:00] photos?
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yes. The first photo was of the Alice Young memorial brick in Windsor, Connecticut. It's a brick dedicated to the first New England, first American colonies, hanging victim of a witch trial. And That is Alice Young. It's a picture of her brick with some roses we had laid during a memorial that we held on May 26th, 2023, the day after the legislation passed the Senate and the 376th anniversary of Alice Young's execution. So that, that was the first one. Then there's a picture of Samuel Parris's sermon book. You may remember him as the [00:40:00] minister of the Salem Village Church involved in the Salem Witch Trials. And the picture is open, the sermon book is open to his sermon he gave on "Christ Knows How Many Devils There are in His Church," which, was the sermon that Sarah Cloyce allegedly stormed out of because he was basically talking about her sister, Rebecca Nurse, which is Sarah's ancestor.
Sarah Jack: Did you go to Salem to get a look at that notebook?
Josh Hutchinson: No, actually it's in Connecticut at the former Connecticut Historical Society, now the Connecticut Museum of Culture and Historyso yeah, there's that picture. And the third picture is of Leo Igwe, paying tribute by laying flowers at the Procter's Ledge Memorial in Salem, which is at the site where [00:41:00] the hangings were believed to have taken place for those convicted under the Salem Witch Trials. And seeing Leo at that photo, looking at it, was very meta experience. It was. Just interesting, I got a picture of him looking at a picture of himself.
Sarah Jack: The other photos that are part of this exhibit are very moving. You are looking at the faces of communities where they have seen persecution against women and children and sometimes men for witchcraft accusations. It's very touching.
Josh Hutchinson: It is. You'll learn a lot about what's going on in the crisis by looking and reading the captions in the booklet that accompanies the exhibit. And then after the art exhibit, we had a lovely [00:42:00] dinner with the other attendees, it was great just sitting at a table. I would have been really thrilled to have been at any of the tables in that room. The only downside is you can only talk to so many people at a dinner. But we had just such wonderful conversation.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, there were attendees from Papua New Guinea at our table, from England. So it was a wonderful conversation.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was great chatting. And then at the end of the dinner, Kirsty Brimelow, K.C. gave a talk about the Lancashire Witch Trials. Yeah. And it was a great talk. I really enjoy when this type of gathering is happening. There's just this constant recognition of past matching present. And that even came through in her talk about [00:43:00] the victims of the Pendle witch trials and how that history even sometimes overshadows the court today.
Josh Hutchinson: And I want to say about the barrister here, she, I'm skipping ahead to day two for a minute. I hope you'll forgive me, listener. But she gave another talk about, talking about the history of a resolution against female genital mutilation and how that was implemented and what we can learn from the implementation of that resolution for, to apply to the resolution to eliminate these harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: And dessert was yummy.
Sarah Jack: I think I had cheesecake. I'm not really remembering.
Josh Hutchinson: I just remember it was really good.
Sarah Jack: There was coffee [00:44:00] served and I made sure everybody got a second cup who wanted a second cup.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And there was salmon, which I remember because I ate salmon like four days that week.
Sarah Jack: We really enjoyed getting to try food in England and there were yummy roasted vegetables so often.
Sarah Jack: And this dinner had them also. It was great.
Josh Hutchinson: It really was. Kudos to the chef and team that pulled that off.
Josh Hutchinson: Day two, we rode a double decker bus most of the way to the university.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it was impossible to get a ride share in the morning and wasn't sure about how to go about getting a taxi in the city. So we ended up just riding the bus out to the university and taking a little walk across the campus, which was [00:45:00] the other thing that.
Josh Hutchinson: I enjoyed eating the food. I enjoyed talking to the people and just being out. But I really enjoyed the weather while we were there. And again, this might be, we are going to do an episode specifically about our tourism that we did, but I want to say England, sunny, mild temperatures,in the sixties to seventies Fahrenheit, while we were there for highs, it was very comfortable. You could just walk around. No jacket usually. and,
Sarah Jack: no umbrella
Josh Hutchinson: be fine. Yeah. And we only had to use umbrellas one day that we were there and one morning and it rain ended in the afternoon. Yeah. It was just a lovely time in England.
Sarah Jack: Day two, we did not have a presentation, so we got to just settle in our conference seats and really soak in the presentations and [00:46:00] talking.
Sarah Jack: Speaking of settling in and having conversations, I was privileged enough to get to chat frequently with Nigel Thompson during this conference. The first day, I enjoyed talking to him about podcasting. The second day, we were talking more about what we learned the first day, at the art gallery. He and his team were there recording the conference and interviewing guests.
Josh Hutchinson: Nigel, very pleasant gentleman to talk to. so
Sarah Jack: There's just something that happens when podcasters find each other. There's just, an acknowledgment of craft that you have with each other, and you can talkall day about it.
Josh Hutchinson:
Josh Hutchinson: At day two, we had more great conversations with the attendees. It was amazing that many of them [00:47:00] know the podcast and knew of us before we met them.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, it was such a warm welcome and getting to plan upcoming episodes in person with experts that you're chatting with right there is so great. It's really beats sending an email.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Andit was so great, day two, we were free, as Sarah said, just to appreciate all the other talks that were going on and we learned so much.One great thing about it is we're going to be interviewing a number of these individuals who spoke at the conference. And so you'll get to hear what they talked about as well.
Sarah Jack: Our friend, Dr. Debora Moretti came into town to hear her boss, keynote. They're working on a project together. [00:48:00] And the keynote that Professor Davies gave was so great about linking historic witchcraft persecution to modern witchcraft persecution.
Sarah Jack: It was so great meeting him.
Sarah Jack: Owen Davies keynote was going to be one of my highlights. And it was, I was really excited that I was going to get to hear him speak in person. Having him as a guest on our podcast was a really big deal to me last year.
Sarah Jack: I hadn't even heard him speak, but I spied him sitting in a seat on that first day. And I was like, I thought, what if this is my only opportunity to say hi? It was the beginning of the day. So I'm like, I have to go over and say hi to Dr. Davies. But a little bit later I go in to get a fresh cup of coffee and my colleague is deep in conversation with Dr. Davies.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. Yeah, Professor Davies is very [00:49:00] interested in what goes on in America. He wrote a book, which is behind Sarah, America Bewitched, which talks about witchcraft persecutions in the United States after the Salem witch trials. And he talks about how more people were killed because of witchcraft accusations after the Salem witch trials than during.
Josh Hutchinson: And so it just. Lovely catching up with him, chatting with him. It's been at least a year since we talked to him about his book on The Art of the Grimoire. And so great to catch up and we got to talk to him more during the conference as well.
Josh Hutchinson: And his keynote, one of the points that stuck out to me, I think it was basically his main point was that if you look at 19th and [00:50:00] 20th century persecutions, extrajudicial, action against people accused of witchcraft are all around the world in Europe, England, the United States, all over. If you look at those 19th and 20th century events, that's where you can really see the closest similarities to what's happening in the modern world. He talked about the close links between those types of events.
Sarah Jack: And it happens to be one of the spaces of time that we haven't had the opportunity to share a lot of stories.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're really looking forward to talking about that. It's, there's not really a name for that period of witchcraft accusation. I know Sarah did ask Professor Davies, when he was on the show, last year about what do we call that [00:51:00] time period? But that's the time period that I'm most keen on getting into because we haven't really peeled that layer back of what was happening 18th, 19th and 20th century with those post Salem witchcraft accusations in the Western world.
Sarah Jack: Not only has there been. academic literature published on it, but there is newspaper archives, there's articles. It's in the papers.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. If you go to newspapers.com and just type in things like witch killing, witch killed, witch murdered, you'll find a surprising, yeah, witchcraft accusation,you find a surprising amount of things from even your own area. No matter where you are in the world, these things have been going on.
Sarah Jack: [00:52:00] Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: So yeah, that was a really good keynote.
Josh Hutchinson: And after all the talks were done, a roundtable was formed. We got to sit down,almost all the attendees just sat around tables together and the keynote speakers and some other members of the international network spoke out about what needs to be done to implement the resolution and we got to hear from Professor Davies again, we got to hear from Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond again.
Sarah Jack: Leo,
Josh Hutchinson: Leo Igwe, Philip Gibbs spoke,friend Samantha Spence spoke, Miranda Forsyth spoke, Charlotte Baker spoke, want to give a shout out to the crew that put on the conference, which was Charlotte Baker, Miranda Forsyth, Samantha Spence, Alice [00:53:00] Markham-Cantor, Leethen Bartholomew.
Josh Hutchinson: it
Josh Hutchinson: took many hands to make that thing run the way that it did.
Josh Hutchinson: And we learned so many things during those two days. We've already talked about the commonalities between historical witch hunts and contemporary harmful practices.They're extensive. They are extensive.
Josh Hutchinson: And what I'd like to point out and, talking again about Professor Davies' book, America Bewitched, really witchcraft accusations didn't end when the European witch trials ended. They continued on but went underground and extralegal.
Sarah Jack: That's why today, every day people are experiencing violence from witch hunts.
Josh Hutchinson: People often look back at historic witch hunts and say, well, [00:54:00] that ended 300, 400 years ago and, depending where you are exactly. And they say, well, let's just not do that again. But we see everyday occurrences of witch-hunting of various forms, and especially the literal, brutal, harmful practices are still going on.
Sarah Jack: And we're going to tackle this by everyone working together.
Josh Hutchinson: That was another point that was raised by Muluka-Anne Miti-Drummond and many of the other speakers at the conference. Implementation of a resolution of this nature, given the scope of this problem, it's really going to take everybody from every background working together. So researchers, academics, advocates, activists, the media, you need [00:55:00] faith-based communities to get involved. You need non faith based NGOs to get involved. You need people who are in the countries that are most effective and part of those nations and cultures, and you also need people in other locations supporting them.So it really is going to take all hands on deck and there are plenty of ways that you can get involved that I think we'll talk about shortly.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one thing that came through the keynotes, but, and also many of the other sessions is the need for more and more data to be collected around the world about the scope and scale of the problem and more data to [00:56:00] both quantify the issue, but also qualify what is the actually happening around the world, on the ground when these things take place.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. And it's really about collecting it because there is information, this tragedy can be substantiated with records and the numbers of those are experiencing gender based violence. There's lots of places that there is data, but it needs to be organized.
Josh Hutchinson: There's no government agencies going around our country or any countrygathering data on harmful practices related to witchcraft accusations or ritual attacks. There's no central repository where you can go and say, oh, here's all the data. Butpeople at the conference did talk about the [00:57:00] need to make, to have a centralized database, also where all this data can reside and different researchers can access it and study the situation. But we need this data to be able to make the case to the nations of the world that they should take steps to do what's said in Resolution 47/8 for them to do, which we'll actually cover shortly.
Sarah Jack: I wanted to say something about so what is a UN resolution, but say, you don't really have to worry about that part. You need to pay attention to the values that it is representing, which are things that are important, not to everybody though, but that are important to those that care about safeguarding children and other vulnerable people.
Sarah Jack: And some of those values are equality, [00:58:00] non discrimination, human dignity, child safety, eldercare, women's rights,
Sarah Jack: freedom of thought,conscience, and religion. And to quote the resolution, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person, and that no one shall be subjected to torture, or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
Josh Hutchinson: That's right. That's a value that we should all share. It's enshrined in constitutions around the world, those rights to life, liberty, and security of person, freedom from cruel and unusual punishment, right there in the U S constitution and other constitutions, and also in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was signed 76 Years ago now.
Sarah Jack: We're now going to read to you [00:59:00] a portion of Resolution 47/8. The entire resolution contains two pages of whereas clauses, basically where it's stating, laying the groundwork, stating all the different international covenants and treaties that have been adopted that apply to this situation that say that you need to follow these rules. So we're going to read the recommendations that the Human Rights Council has for its member, for UN member states, the things that states should be doing to eliminate harmful practices. Here we go.
Josh Hutchinson: The Human Rights Council urges states to condemn harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks that result in human rights violations.
Sarah Jack: Also urges states to take all measures necessary to ensure the [01:00:00] elimination of harmful practices amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, and to ensure accountability and the effective protection of all persons, particularly persons in vulnerable situations.
Josh Hutchinson: Calls upon states to ensure that no one within their jurisdiction is deprived of the right to life, liberty, or security of person because of religion or belief, and that no one is subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment, or punishment, or arbitrary arrest or detention on that account, and to bring justice to all perpetrators of violations and abuses of these rights in compliance with applicable and international law.
Sarah Jack: Invite states in collaboration with relevant regional and international organizations to promote bilateral, regional, and international initiatives to support the protection of all persons vulnerable to harmful practices [01:01:00] amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, while noting that, in providing protection, attention to local context is critical.
Josh Hutchinson: Also invites states to draw attention to this issue in the context of the Universal Periodic Review.
Sarah Jack: Emphasizes that states should carefully distinguish between harmful practices amounting to human rights violations related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks and the lawful and legitimate exercise of different kinds of religion or beliefs in order to preserve the right to freely manifest a religion or a belief individually or in a community with others, including for persons belonging to religious minorities.
Josh Hutchinson: Encourages human rights mechanisms, including relevant special procedures of the human rights council and treaty bodies to compile and share information on harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, and their impact on the enjoyment of [01:02:00] human rights.
Sarah Jack: Request the United Nations High Commissionerfor Human Rights to organize an expert consultation with states and other relevant stakeholders, including the United Nations Secretariat and relevant bodies, representatives of sub regional and regional organizations, international human rights mechanisms, national human rights institutions, and nongovernmental organizations, the results of which will help the Office of the High Commissioner to prepare a study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization, and to inform further action by existing mechanisms at the United Nations, and to submit a report thereon to the Human Rights Council at its 52nd session.
Josh Hutchinson: And that resolution was adopted by the Human Rights Council on July 12th, 2021. And since then, there's been some more activity in implementing it. One thing that has been a [01:03:00] major development is the Pan African Parliament developed guidelines for its member nations to develop their own national action plans to ensure coordinated response to harmful practices occurring in accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: So how is the report distinct from the resolution?
Josh Hutchinson: The report it goes in more detail about the nature of the crisis. The resolution doesn't really establish the nature of the crisis in terms of magnitude or how it impacts specific communities, which the report breaks down the impacts to various, to children, to women and girls, to elders. It breaks down all those things, what actual human rights violations are being committed, as [01:04:00] well. It gives some specific recommendations that are for the implementation by the member states and other stakeholders.
Josh Hutchinson: So we're going to read a section from this report. It was given in 2023. We had mentioned it in the resolution, one of the steps is for this report to be created, and it was done in February 2023. We'll read the recommendations section.
Josh Hutchinson: Recalling recommendations made by human rights treaty bodies, the Universal Periodic Review, and special procedure mandate holders, the Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights recommends that states undertake the following actions.

Sarah Jack: Develop and implement comprehensive frameworks at national and local levels focusing on the prevention of human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful [01:05:00] practices related to accusations of and associations with witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization.With a view to ensuring the effectiveness and sustainability of such efforts, further research should be conducted on the design and implementation of policy and legal measures, including lessons learned from responses to hate crimes, prevention efforts, protective measures, and responsive services.
Josh Hutchinson: Address and promptly investigate human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, prosecute and adequately punish the perpetrators of such attacks, and in that regard, enhance the capacities of relevant stakeholders, including police officers, prosecutors, and judges.
Sarah Jack: Collect and publish information
Sarah Jack: including updated disaggregated data, exploring the behavioral barriers that prevent law enforcement officers from fulfilling their obligations to promptly investigate harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft [01:06:00] and ritual attacks and identify strategic entry points for pilot interventions.
Josh Hutchinson: Review and update relevant asylum policy guidance, including country guidance notes to include all countries that have increased vulnerability to harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft, as well as associations with witchcraft and ritual attacks that potentially threaten the life and safety of persons in vulnerable situations, pushing them to flee their countries and seek asylum.
Sarah Jack: Ensure that national authorities,as well as all human rights mechanisms, effectively address both human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and to association with witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: Conduct further research on prevention and responses, including an assessment of the risks related to a variety of settings, including conflict, intercommunal hostility, political and economic instability, elections, natural disasters, environmental [01:07:00] degradation, and public health crises.
Sarah Jack: Ensure that authorities identify, document, disseminate promising practices of combating human rights violations and abuses rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Josh Hutchinson: And organize systematic awareness raising campaigns targeting both men and women, as well as community and village chiefs and religious leaders, particularly in rural areas, with a view to tackling the root causes of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization.
Josh Hutchinson: Many more details on the implementation ideas that people have on how to put together national action plans is available in additional episodes. And, we'll go back to this in many upcoming episodes to give more detail on what still needs to be done. But what I talked about when I [01:08:00] was talking about the our York presentation on Ending Witch Hunts, the holistic approach, is basically what's needed to go forward. You need an all-in strategy encompassing all aspects of life and society.
Sarah Jack: We have many guests that you are going to hear soon presented at this conference.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, many coming up and many that you've heard in the past or can go back and check out. So check our show notes for links to past episodes with these great guests who spoke at the conferences and subscribe to our newsletter for information on our upcoming guests.
Sarah Jack: We thank everyone who supported this trip and who have shared information and who used their voice, [01:09:00] platform, and community to advocate.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes, thank, everybody that we met at the conferences as well as, like Sarah said, everyone who generously contributed to our travel expenses. We really appreciate you allowing us to do this. We think it's very important for the movement this conference.
Mary Bingham: End Witch Hunts has recorded 99 cases related to spiritual and ritual abuse in the United States. Contributing factors known in some of these cases from the court documents of those who committed the crimes are extreme religious views, government conspiracy theories, Superstition, mental illness, and drugs. Most of these factors were present in the sad case of 13 month old Amora Bain Carson, whose life ended on December 2nd, 2008, at the hands of Blaine Milam and her mother, Jessica Carson. [01:10:00] Court documents tell us that Blaine had a 4th grade education and a history with drugs. Jessica became withdrawn and possibly suffered from psychotic depression after she began to date Blaine and was under his watchful eye 24/7. The pair used a Ouija board to contact their deceased fathers and believed a spirit was released and entered Amora. Blaine later performed the exorcism while Jessica waited in the next room. Blaine was found guilty in 2010 and sentenced to death. However, Blaine filed an appeal stating he can't be executed due to an intellectual disability.
Mary Bingham: Though these factors should be noted in our research, it is most important for us to remember the innocent lives that were lost. Rest in peace, Amora Bain Carson, and all of those who will be remembered in future segments of Minute with Mary. Thank you. [01:11:00]
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for joining us for this episode.
Sarah Jack: Have a great day and a beautiful tomorrow.
Josh Hutchinson: Yay. She said it.

October 8, 2024

Newcastle Witch Trials with Dr. Katie Liddane

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Show Notes

In this week’s captivating episode, we are excited to welcome Dr. Katie Liddane, an expert in the History and Heritage of Witch Hunting in the North East of England. Katie takes us through her research and her dedicated efforts to illuminate the Newcastle Witch Trials. We delve into why the Newcastle Witch-Hunt remains less known compared to events like the Pendle Witch-Hunt and discuss Newcastle Castle’s creative approach to engaging the community with workshops on witch trial history. Katie also talks about her active role in creating a memorial for the victims of the Newcastle witch trials, stressing the importance of community involvement and historical fidelity. She sheds light on the necessity of merging historical accuracy with the pop-cultural fascination with witchcraft to fully honor and recognize the humanity of the accused. Join us as we explore an intricate blend of history, memory, and cultural engagement in remembering past witch hunts.

Newcastle Castle

The Newcastle Witches Podcast

Walking with Witches by Lynn Huggins-Cooper

Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Witch Hunt

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, where we unravel the complex global history of witch trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we are excited to bring you a special discussion from Dr. Katie Liddane.
Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane takes us through the Newcastle Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: And tells us about her witch trial history workshop at Newcastle Castle, attended by sixth-year students.
Josh Hutchinson: We also explore why the Newcastle Witch Hunt has been overlooked by many, while the Pendle Witch Trials are much more widely known.
Sarah Jack: This conversation is so engaging, you may catch yourself trying to join in with us.
Josh Hutchinson: And we don't mind if you do.
Sarah Jack: Yay!
Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane's work highlights the large absence [00:01:00] and sense of obscurity around neglected historical events like witch trials, especially when pitted against the more renowned historical events.
Sarah Jack: Dr. Liddane emphasizes the importance of remembering our past and memorializing those accused of witchcraft.
Josh Hutchinson: One of her outreach efforts has been to dress the part of a 17th century woman accused of witchcraft and lead castle tours.
Sarah Jack: Be sure to check out her social media so you can see her in costume. It's awesome.
Josh Hutchinson: It is.
Sarah Jack: Welcome Dr. Katie Liddane. Her expertise spans witchcraft history, folklore, historical fiction, and the intriguing realm of gothic tourism. Her research and creative projects focus on 17th century northeast English witchcraft, and she obtained a PhD from Northumbria University.
Sarah Jack: Could you please introduce yourself and share with the listeners your background, expertise, and professional journey?
Katie Liddane: I'm Katie Liddane. I [00:02:00] recently graduated with my doctorate in December of last year in the History and Heritage of Witch-Hunting in the North East of England. Witch Persecution, I think is in the title. I've been at Northumbria for all three of my degrees and was fortunate enough to get scholarships for both postgraduate degrees. And I guess in the more heritage side of my studies and my experience, I started an internship while I was awaiting the start of my PhD that showed me how heavily influenced by industrial heritage and the Northeast as a center for working class communities and scientific innovation had really eclipsed a lot of the other historical events in Newcastle, including the witch trials.
Katie Liddane: Because the first time I'd heard of the [00:03:00] Newcastle Witch Trials was through a local newspaper article that was from 2008 but had been republished in around 2016 or so. And it was a very brief article that did send me rolling my eyes a little bit, because the article was about the bones of those convicted of witchcraft being accidentally excavated, and the article describes some of the archaeologists or workmen there getting a rash from the bones and describing it as a curse.
Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
Katie Liddane: So
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
Katie Liddane: I found that obviously quite a problematic coverage, so I went in search for more to find out more about the Newcastle witches and then to understand how such a large absence and sense of obscurity had developed, especially in comparison with the Pendle Witches that are much more [00:04:00] famous in cultural memory. And I kind of had the idea and the curiosity and then found an opportunity that would fit to allow me to explore it for so long and write about it.
Josh Hutchinson: What a strange thing to put in a newspaper article, getting a rash from handling accused person's bones.
Katie Liddane: And it's not even entirely clear that it was the bones of those convicted of witchcraft. It was just in the general area that we think that the convicted were buried. And again, the article's around Halloween. So I think it was just a kind of spooky ending of the article.
Katie Liddane:
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yeah. There's always those Halloween articles
Josh Hutchinson: Every year.
Katie Liddane: Yeah. And in terms of what I'd done before the PhD and before working at the North of England Institute for Mining [00:05:00] and Mechanical Engineers, there's an abbreviation for a reason, I had done a Master's of Research in the Heritage Management and History of Crossbones Graveyard in Southwark in London.
Katie Liddane: Have you heard of Crossbones before?
Josh Hutchinson: No, haven't heard before.
Katie Liddane: It's hailed as I think the first sex worker heritage site. And that's because Southwark had a long history as an area for licensed sex work in the medieval period. And Crossbones was a pauper's graveyard for centuries, the kind of two histories had become conflated. And again, it was through the discovery of bones that interest in the site was reignited. I think it was during an Tube in the 1990s that they discovered a pauper's graveyard, and so that kind of gave me, [00:06:00] that masters gave me my foundation to explore the history of the site and the people associated with it, but also how that history morphs through heritage attractions and fiction and public history. So I can see quite a clear link between the two subjects, even though they're like quite different areas of history.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. Is there any links there that you want to talk about?
Katie Liddane: I guess just a shared background of subjects that are usually considered women's history or gendered history, sex work and witchcraft, and the histories, heritage attractions, and businesses sometimes built around the memorialization or lack thereof of marginalized people. But at that time, I'd like to say it was part of a grand scheme, but at that time I'd lived in Newcastle for at least three years and hadn't [00:07:00] heard of the Newcastle witches before. And a lot of people still haven't. So it's been very recently that people are starting to become aware that Newcastle had witch trials. Some people in the town don't even know that Newcastle has a castle. It's something that I've learned from working at Newcastle Castle.
Josh Hutchinson: Some of the work that we've done in Connecticut around the witch trial history is really similar as far as the awareness isn't there in a lot of the community. I have really enjoyed that piece, just having the new learners getting to spread something that is interesting and important. As surprising as it can be when history is just unknown, it's exciting when it gets launched like this.
Katie Liddane: Definitely has been very exciting and the opportunity to talk about it more on podcasts and heritage [00:08:00] attractions has been brilliant as well because that was the intention of my project, really, to explain and understand the obscurity of the Newcastle witches, but also use that to have a wider impact outside of academia. Because I don't think many people are going to read an 80,000 word academic thesis on the role of deindustrialization in the legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials, but there are opportunities to talk about the Witch Trials and to often clear up a lot of misconceptions that happen a lot with originating in the sort of Halloween articles and popular media that really links the fairy tale or the folk healer witch with those convicted and executed in the 17th century.
Katie Liddane: And I think Newcastle has been especially impacted by what I term in my thesis, but I don't think I coined [00:09:00] the term, 'witch kitsch' in the intervening centuries almost between the trials and their resurgence. Strangely, post 2008, 2008 seems to be a watershed moment for the afterlife of the Newcastle witches. There has been mounds and mounds of witchcraft media that has been drawn upon to a greater extent than the few sources we have of the Newcastle Witches.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that is since 2008? Why has that changed?
Katie Liddane: 2008 was the year of the article about the bones, and it was during renovation work of St. Andrew's Churchyard that what may have been the bones of the convicted were unearthed. But that was also the year that Walking with Witches, which is a children's novel by Lynn Huggins Cooper, based on the Newcastle Witches, was released. And then when you go slightly [00:10:00] further back, I have family history journals that do include excerpts from the burial register with the title, 'Was Your Ancestress a Witch?' Then we get small articles and magazines in the 1970s and things like that, but I think post sort of 2008 is the time where you see the solidification of the Northeast as a post-industrial region and there's been a greater exploration of parts of the region's history beyond heavy industry. And it's enabled people to tap into wider witch kitsch with the regional example.
Katie Liddane: That was already quite a mouthful, but there is like an 80,000 word explanation that starts literally with the witch trials, and then you see a snowballing effect of obscurity, and then a kind of redevelopment of interest. I've not been [00:11:00] able to pin down why specifically 2008, but you can tie it into wider witch literature, occult revivals, interest in the supernatural, and I guess there may have been examples of people finding out about the Newcastle Witches in the same way that I have, and then they've gone through and mined the few resources that there are out there, and we're starting to see more representation.
Sarah Jack: I was just thinking, my journey has not led me to a new degree yet, but I was trying to mine resources about my ancestor who was on trial for witchcraft in the 17th century in Connecticut, and I didn't realize I needed to stick my nose in the academic writings, because I wasn't reading academic writings at that point. I was online looking for people talking about it, newspaper articles, that kind of thing. And it [00:12:00] was really similar the type of witch kitsch that we would find, that I would find, or just lack, other people saying, I don't know, what's out there, and can there be a memorial?
Sarah Jack: And so it's interesting how these histories that do come back alive, the voices start to be heard. It's because there's inquiry, and there's a vacuum there.
Katie Liddane: Definitely, and I think with a more obscure case like Newcastle, I think it's quite important that vacuum is filled in a way in a collaboration between historians and heritage professionals, because there is that danger of this rediscovery stopping with the witch kitsch, and I think especially in a situation such as Newcastle's where there is this kind of more grassroots reengagement with the city's [00:13:00] witch-hunting past. There is that danger that the information or lack thereof that we have about the Newcastle Witches becomes supplemented and our understanding of the Newcastle Witches is that of the hag stereotype or the almost fictional caricature, and that these efforts and these interests don't materialize into memorialization and recognition of victimhood.
Josh Hutchinson: Now one way that you've worked on getting more recognition is through workshops you conducted. What can you tell us about those?
Katie Liddane: I wrote a bespoke workshop at the time for a primary school in the west end of Newcastle called Bridgewater. And the workshop is called 'Familiars and Fear,' and it was written because the children in year six, so that's around 11 years old, [00:14:00] were reading Walking with Witches for their literacy class. And the novel touches on a lot of locations in Newcastle, like Newcastle Castle, and the Lit and Phil, which is the Literary and Philosophical Society. And the teachers wanted to have a school trip to actually visit these locations, and luckily at the time I was at placement at Newcastle Castle as part of my PhD studies, so I was able to write the workshop that tied in with what they're reading at school, but also the wider witchcraft history in the region. Eleven years old is quite young to explain some of these issues, so it requires a bit of simplification and talking about suspicion and rumour and issues like that, but also bringing in issues of gender and class. And we also have a game [00:15:00] towards the end, where one of the children plays a witchfinder.
Katie Liddane: And it's quite similar to Wink Murder. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Sarah Jack: I believe I am. Is that a group game, and you don't wanna get winked at 'cause then you're dead.?
Katie Liddane: Essentially, yeah, and one of the children, or one of the people playing the game is chosen to be a detective and to work out who is committing the murders. But, this time we have someone chosen to be a witchfinder. The child is taken out of the room and told, essentially the witchfinder was given the equivalent of 106 pounds in today's money per witch, that he would find guilty and do not think that might influence your decision a little bit. And the children in the main room are given cards that they are told will say whether they are a villager or a witch. And in reality, none of the cards say that the children, say that anyone is a witch, [00:16:00] and the kind of game escalates as the children start to accuse each other, the witchfinder decides if he's going to send them to trial, essentially, and then at the end we explain to the children that none of them were witches, and it's a really good opportunity to see the shock on their faces, but also to talk about how easily they started accusing one another. So I think it's a really good way to make the session interactive but also through that and through a more tangible and active lesson, get them the core messages across about what we can learn from witch hunting.
Sarah Jack: The prickers and the finders were a strong part of the Newcastle witch trial history.
Katie Liddane: Yes, so how the witch trials originated in Newcastle was through a petition that was submitted in March of [00:17:00] 1649, for a witchfinder to be invited to the town, and unfortunately, the petition doesn't survive, but we get the sense that the witch finder was chosen by name. He was a Scottish professional witch pricker, and unfortunately, we don't know his name today. But he had a reputation that crossed the border into Newcastle, and when he arrived into the town, thirty people, which would have been around 1 percent of the town's population, were brought forward to be tried by him, and he boasted that he could tell if someone was a witch by their looks alone, but his method in court as a sort of preliminary trial method was pricking with a bodkin, which was a long medicinal pin, and he would prick the devil's marks that he found on the [00:18:00] accused, and particularly in English witch hunting, this was a protuberance like a mole or an extra nipple or a skin tag or something like that that was understood to be the teat at which the familiar spirit would feed. And, out of the 30 people, the wich finder found 15 guilty and were passed on to trial, and then they were convicted at the assizes.
Josh Hutchinson: And he was paid per witch that he found?
Katie Liddane: Yeah, he was paid 20 shillings per witch, and later on, he allegedly admitted to being the death of over 220 people across England and Scotland.
Josh Hutchinson: So he made pretty good money.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, and he was actually discovered to be a fraud after his time in Newcastle, and according to the evidence that we have, he was pursued into Scotland and [00:19:00] executed, and it was on the gallows that he gave the figure of 220, but I've unfortunately not been able to verify that anywhere, so I do have some speculation that in the town's kind of constructing of the history of this event in the five years between the event and the first surviving piece of documentation, it certainly makes the town's officials appear better if they've managed to apprehend him but have not found anything to correlate that he was executed for his involvement at Newcastle.
Sarah Jack: Were there also sociopolitical impacts in the Northeast that contributed to the witchcraft persecutions?
Katie Liddane: The 17th century in Newcastle was a very turbulent period. You've got various sieges by the Scottish. There's [00:20:00] a plague outbreak that was proportionally more devastating than London's 1666 plague. There were pirates at the ports in Newcastle in 1649 to 1650, harvest crises, just decades of political upheaval. And whilst, because we don't have the surviving material of the accusations of the individuals, you can definitely see this escalation over the time period and the fact that witch trial accusations and a reputation for witchcraft took sometimes decades to develop, you can really see, again, like this gradual increase that reached a fever pitch in 1649.
Josh Hutchinson: Oh, this sounds so familiar to what we've heard with other witch trial cases. There's this political uncertainty, maybe some [00:21:00] warfare going on, disease, crop issues. Yeah, these seem to be pretty typical contributors to at least the witch panics that happened.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. And you do see this kind of spread outside of Newcastle in 1649 to 1650. There was a peak in Scottish witch hunting in the same time period, but you also see smaller clusters of accusations in Gateshead, which is just across the Tyne, and the Sheriff of Cumberland sent a letter to London to ask for assistance in a witch hunt, and he was told that essentially the legislation, we're not going to offer any more support. And in the case of Newcastle, they did seek that support from north of the border instead.
Sarah Jack: In the Newcastle case, they were tried in Newcastle?
Katie Liddane: [00:22:00] Yes They would have been tried at the Assizes Court in the Guild Hall, which is just on the quayside, and the witch that was likely held at Newcastle Castle, she was a resident of Northumberland, so she would have been tried at the Morpeth Assizes in Northumberland, but because at the time she was in a different jurisdiction, she would have been held at Newcastle Castle because that was acting as the jail for the county of Northumberland. But she was executed alongside the Newcastle Witches too.
Sarah Jack: How many executions occurred?
Katie Liddane: So there were 14 from the Newcastle Witch Trials, 13 women and one man. And then Jane Martin was the witch who was accused in Northumberland and convicted alongside the Newcastle Witches. But also on the same day, nine Moss Troopers were executed. Moss Troopers are a local name [00:23:00] for cattle rustlers and border thieves. They would essentially use the difference in legislation and jurisdiction to hop across the border whenever they'd committed a crime. The large number of executions taking place on the same day would have been a huge spectacle for people in the region and reinforced the idea of maintenance of law and order and show some stability in a bizarre way. During this period, the number of executions were so large that a special gallows was built. We have record of the construction of an extra large gallows, and this was what made it more surprising to me that the Newcastle Witches had been so little known for so long was that their hanging was the largest hanging for witchcraft in English history. There's, a group of 18 witches that were executed in Chelmsford in East Anglia under Matthew Hopkins, [00:24:00] but they were executed in different locations and at different dates. So it, at the start of my studies, it seemed even more strange that the Newcastle Witch Trials have faded into obscurity.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, that really stands out differently. With Salem, we had 19 hanged, but there were several different dates.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, and I think similarly with Salem, because in exploring this absence throughout my thesis, I wanted to do a lot of comparison to sites that do engage with their witchcraft history, for better or for worse, in different times throughout history. I think it's really important to follow the example of memorialising those that weren't executed as witches, but died earlier in jail, or died awaiting trial, [00:25:00] things like that, so really good to be able to have that comparison of this is how it's been done in another location, in perhaps the most famous place for witchcraft heritage in the world. So this is how Newcastle can learn from that and build upon that.
Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about the memorial effort?
Katie Liddane: We're in the early stages at the moment. It's a project at the moment between myself, the learning team at Newcastle Castle, and Newcastle's Council, the Heritage and Conservation Department. We're working on contacting people that we think would be interested stakeholders, organizations that I've worked with before.
Katie Liddane: And as part of that, I'm quite keen to reach out to other heritage sites in the UK and elsewhere that have witchcraft memorials and to discuss the stories of how they came about [00:26:00] there and really learn from how other sites have engaged with their witch hunting past. Not just to, as I was in my thesis, to look at why Newcastle perhaps hasn't yet but to turn that into an action.
Katie Liddane: We'll look at involving local artists. We've got Bridgewater Primary, the school that I mentioned earlier, involved as well. They did a writing exercise for one of their classes to write a letter requesting a memorial to their local MP. So we are trying to build a communal engagement rather than a sort of top down memorial that someone will read about in the newspaper, like I did the bone discovery.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah and I are involved in an effort to get a memorial for the witch trial victims in Connecticut. So we're at a similar early stage building the community [00:27:00] and starting to conceptualize what it might look like.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, we're also hoping, we're in the sort of blue sky thinking, shoot for the stars phase at the moment, but we'd love to do a community event each year as well, on the anniversary of the executions. So to keep the memorialization process and recognition alive again, rather than just placing a memorial and that being the end of it, but also, I don't know if you've had a similar thought process, but with it being so long that Newcastle has gone without any sort of recognition or memorialization, the aims are a bit higher. Part of our thinking is that we definitely want the names of each of the people convicted and or accused that might have died during the process that they awaited trial, but a [00:28:00] small plaque doesn't seem enough after so long. Envisioning what the design looks like is definitely being influenced, on my part anyway, by the amount of time that there's been nothing.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'd say shoot for the stars. Definitely.
Katie Liddane: I think looking at the centenaries of other witch hunts and the events around that has been really important in both my research process and in starting to put proposals together for the memorial as well. So the fourth centenary of the Pendle Witch Trials that happened in 2012 has been quite influential in the various events and different means of engaging with different parts of the community. In looking at Salem as well, when I visited Lancaster, it was quite interesting to see the coexistence of serious memorialization, such as the [00:29:00] turset weight markers that were put on the Pendle Witch Trail in 2012, in contrast to the local bus companies having a lady with a pointed hat and a broomstick on the side of their, on the side of their buses.
Katie Liddane: So there's a really, like a really interesting mingling of what the early modern witch means to people and the different ways that regions with a strong witch hunting past engage with that.
Katie Liddane:
Josh Hutchinson: That sounds a lot like Salem. The city emblem is the witch on the broomstick with the pointy hat. So the police and the police cars have that emblem on them, but you do have, you know, multiple memorials to the victims there, where you go, and, they're peaceful, solemn places amidst all the witch kitsch going on all around it. So it's a [00:30:00] this interesting dichotomy.
Katie Liddane: It's really interesting, and I'd say, apart from sites like Newcastle Castle and brief discussion of the trials at the Discovery Museum in the city, Newcastle's engagement is just the witch kitch elements elsewhere, so there are various ghost tours and there's an escape room that do talk about the Newcastle witches, but it is very much in the pointed hat broomstick way.
Sarah Jack: Yeah, I've seen some local community events that embrace the history of a single witch trial victim from their town. And there's a lot of lore that has grown and then been embraced for communities. And then there's these fresher efforts of bringing their humanity to the forefront. But they're just, the lore is just envelopes [00:31:00] that woman.
Sarah Jack: And so I'm learning that, they're forever intertwined, but the life can be spoken about more, and her humanity and the dignity has to be a constant part of the conversation to grow that piece of her story. And one of the recent memorial plaques that went up, it's very brief what it says about her, but you can tell they are recognizing her as a real woman who hanged, but they are also, there's this endearment of the folklore that's been around her that they identify with as the town.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think it would be really hard to just engage directly with what we know from the 17th century records and not let any other awareness of what witchcraft and or witch hunting means to [00:32:00] us today to influence that. I think the, it's the coexistence of the pop cultural witch with the recognition of the humanity of those accused is most important.
Katie Liddane: I saw a similar memorial in Forfar in Scotland. That memorial has, it's just a stone pillar with one indentation in the stone per victim and then beneath it just says, 'they were just people.' And I think the demystifying aspect is really important there to, like I say, recognize the humanity and to a certain extent the distinction between those accused in the 17th century and our more modern understandings of the witch figure, whether it be historical or fantasy.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's so true. They [00:33:00] were just people. And I think what you're hoping to do with the annual event is so critical. Hopefully, we can do something like that too, because it's so important to give these victims their humanity and know about them outside of just the kitsch element, get a sense of who they are as real human people just like us.
Katie Liddane: Yeah. And we do fortunately have some small glimpses of what the Newcastle Witches were like as people. So Matthew Boomer, the only male defendant. We know that he was a smith of some form, and he appears in the quarter session records in the years leading up to the Newcastle Witch Trials in petty disputes with his neighbors.
Katie Liddane: We don't have much detail about much detail of what they were about [00:34:00] because the clerk didn't seem too interested by it so he didn't write much down, unfortunately. Men implicated in English witch trials are related to, or married to, female defendants, but we can't find that connection there with Matthew. And we also know a little bit more about Margaret Brown.
Katie Liddane: And in the only account that we do have in depth on the Newcastle Witch Trials and the execution again, we can't really verify this but Margaret Brown is said to have asked for a sign from God for her innocence as she was about to drop, and her blood sprayed across the crowd to the amazement of onlookers. And often when I do public engagement work, I try to explain that amazement meant something different in the 17th century than it does today. But Margaret Brown has a further connection in that one of the [00:35:00] witnesses that gave their testimony to support this account of the witch hunts was her friend Eleanor Loomsdale, and Eleanor spent a year in jail for trying to deter people from giving evidence against Margaret and the co-accused. So we can see evidence of opposition to the witch hunting at the time, and Eleanor getting in contact with the writer of the account years later to give her version of events.
Sarah Jack: Wow. And those that were executed, were they identified early on? How, I know we have the length of the event, but I wondered how quickly some of these people went from not being accused to finding themselves convicted.
Katie Liddane: From the glimpses that we can get from the brief [00:36:00] discussion of the Newcastle Witch Hunt in a kind of full length book that is actually about Ralph Gardner's grievances with Newcastle's council. About four pages of the large book are about the witch hunt and this is essentially, apart from the burial register and financial records for how much it cost to jail the witches while they awaited trial, this four page account is all we have.
Katie Liddane: And in Gardner's version of events there was bubbling unrest and informal accusations being made that caused the petition to be submitted. And the petition was submitted in March of 1649, as I said, but the witchfinder wasn't sought until 1650. So we do see a kind of reluctance, hesitance, for Newcastle's authorities to invite a [00:37:00] witchfinder, or to pay for a witchfinder, possibly. There is a suggestion that there was a sense of informal suspicion and reputation for those that were brought forward. But when the witchfinder did arrive, a bellman was sent out into the town to encourage accusations to be formalized. But I highly doubt that those accusations were generated when the witchfinder was riding through. I think it will have been years in the making for a lot of the people accused.
Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that it is that we only have that one four page account?
Katie Liddane: The survival of the assizes records is very scarce for Newcastle in that time period. It's hard to trace when they disappear, but they were already gone by the 19th century, when criminal histories and folklore collections were beginning to be compiled of the [00:38:00] region. In terms of why there were few accounts aside from that, I think it was probably the exposure of the witchfinder as a fraud that meant that we don't see the same sort of pamphlets that were produced about Lancaster and the Pendle Witch Trials and things like that, because, and that sort of In the sense of constructing a narrative about a successful witch hunt and the kind of defeat of evil and the defeat of the devil's agents on earth, that witches were understood to be, the exposure of the witch finder as a fraud kind of undermined a lot of that, and it would have been quite severe that the town's authorities had been taken in by a charlatan, so you can see the sense of why they wouldn't have been happy with the trial being discussed.
Katie Liddane: And we do have evidence of that with the four page account, actually, because the 200 [00:39:00] page, 200, 300 page book that it's contained within was actively suppressed by Newcastle's authorities, so we see a kind of censorship of the trial being committed to print, whether it's contained within Ralph Gardner's text against the town's authorities as a whole, or whether it's specifically about the witch trial.
Katie Liddane: In the same year, a pamphlet called Wonderful News from the North Again, that's a term that I have to explain how language evolves over time. It wasn't considered wonderful news at the time in the way that we would talk about it now. But Wonderful News from the North details Jane Martin's accusations, and Jane was the witch held at Newcastle Castle, and the writer of that pamphlet chose to have it printed in London, even though there was a printer [00:40:00] working in Newcastle at the time. Just the brief detail like that gives us a sense that there was an attempt to spread this news outside of the immediate area, or perhaps a reluctance from Newcastle's printer to discuss witch hunting so close to their executions and the exposure of the fraud.
Josh Hutchinson: Interesting. Is there a victim's story that you'd be interested in telling us?
Katie Liddane: In the case of the core Newcastle Witch Trials, we have very, very little information. But I think Jane Martin's story would probably be quite interesting to go into. Like the Newcastle Witches, Jane never made a confession, but her sister did, on her behalf, Margaret White. And Jane and Margaret became involved with the [00:41:00] story presented in Wonderful News because they were named by a cunning man named John Hutton, who was himself being accused of possessing a nine to eleven year old child called Margaret Moore. Yeah, Margaret Muschamp, her mother was Mary Moore, sorry.
Katie Liddane: And as I say, Jane didn't confess. But Margaret White, on her behalf, said that she had entertained the devil and that he knew her so well that that he nicknamed her Bessie, and that she had a black greyhound familiar. And the pamphlet itself was constructed over about four to five years and released to coincide with the Newcastle Witch Trials, quite interestingly.
Katie Liddane: There's quite a long list of Jane's alleged crimes. She was accused of using telekinesis to launch a kiln of oats at a man's head and to kill him. John Hutton, as I say, was accused of shapeshifting into the [00:42:00] form of a dragon, a bear, a horse, and a cow, of causing shipwrecks. And again to go back to Jane, she was also accused of causing a man to have a sore leg. So going from like shapeshifting into a dragon and causing shipwrecks to a sore leg, we see quite a breadth of accusations and forms of magic being used at the time.
Katie Liddane: And in the pamphlet we know that Jane was indicted, tried, and convicted, and taken to Newcastle to be executed. But, she seems to have been, in a bizarre way collateral damage of sorts. Because the mother, Mary Moore, who wrote the pamphlet, was pursuing Dorothy Swinnow, who was a wealthy widow of a colonel. And we know that she fled to Berwick, and the officials at Berwick wouldn't send her back down to Chatham for a trial, but because [00:43:00] Jane was only the wife of a miller, she gets swept up, and because a conviction can be put through with Jane, we see her executed.
Katie Liddane: And I think her tie to Newcastle Castle and the fact that we do know so much more about Jane is why she was chosen to be a castle character, and the design of the castle character that I did in collaboration with the Master's students at Newcastle came after the original Familiars and Fear workshop, but it's been really good to be able to merge those two parts of interpretation together, and the kids engage really well seeing the 17th century costume, and again, with the understanding that these were real people rather than fairy tale villains. So I think that's been a really helpful method of interpretation.
Josh Hutchinson: Is Jane who you portrayed in the costume last year?
Katie Liddane: [00:44:00] Yeah. The castle characters are the illustrations that are commissioned. So there is an illustration of Jane, too, but the castle commissioned the costume to be made by a woman known as the Rogue Needlewoman that does a lot of the costumes for the castle and for local reenactment societies, but Jane Martin is the character that I was dressed as last year, yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we love seeing people in a period costume presenting the information.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. It really caught my eye too, because it was children's education.
Katie Liddane: Yeah, I think it's a really important opportunity as well and to have such an interactive session where the children can directly ask me questions, and I can directly answer them rather than just having these methods of interpretation be released out there. And if people have questions, it's [00:45:00] much harder to ask those and to research to a certain extent, because a lot of people, especially teachers in school, aren't necessarily going to go to academic theses, but to have the opportunity to speak directly to people has been brilliant.
Katie Liddane: The teachers are sometimes a bit reluctant to let the children ask me questions, because they prefer the classroom environment of putting their hand up and or they don't want the children to bother me sometimes, but I think it's brilliant like, I like to wait around at the end of the sessions and have children come and ask me 'what if witches weren't real, then why were people still saying that there were witches? Why did this happen?' And I think that one-on-one engagement is really important, as well.
Josh Hutchinson: What lessons do the children draw from the engagement?
Katie Liddane: Again, it is the breakdown of [00:46:00] kind of very complicated ideas about class and gender. So we discuss the fact that some people who, looked different, may have been accused, people who were ostracized by their communities in certain ways, so it breaks this sort of complex and very historically distant phenomenon of witch hunting into its basic themes to show what we can learn about acceptance and social justice in terms of what, what has happened to the most vulnerable members of society in the past. And through the game especially, the children gain a sense of empathy of what it would have felt like to be accused, or to recognise in themselves impulse to make accusations based on very little evidence.
Katie Liddane:
Katie Liddane: It's been really fun at the castle, especially, to directly [00:47:00] integrate my research and real examples from the region into these activities. I go through various cases and ask the children, ' do you think this person was a witch or what else might have been happening?' And in the game, as well, we see the children are handed curse cards that are real complaints that people made in their accusations about their cow's milk failing or crops failing and things like that and shipwrecks. So it's again been really good to be able to break down PhD level research, speak to children about it, and have them engage and understand.
Sarah Jack: It's amazing. And I really see this long game impact that what you have done is creating, especially with the memorial developing [00:48:00] and the annual tribute that will be happening as these children are growing. It just strengthens that community acknowledgement of the heritage and making memorialization an important part of looking at the history.
Sarah Jack: It's wonderful.
Katie Liddane: Has been a really fulfilling project, and again, as I say, the intention when I started out with my thesis was community engagement and changing this absence rather than just observing it from academia to a certain extent is to be able to build on the memorialisation process, and as I say, recently we're hearing more and more interest from local schools and groups, so it is really nice to see the development and spread of sometimes very surface level awareness that witch trials did happen in Newcastle, and then to have people reach out to the castle and myself [00:49:00] to learn more. So it's a really exciting time for the kind of legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials.
Josh Hutchinson: As a way of paying tribute, would you be able to read the names of the victims?
Katie Liddane: So the names of those executed in Newcastle on the 21st of August of 1650 were Isabel Brown, Margret Maddeson, Anne Watson, Eleanor Henderson, Elsabeth Dobson, Matthew Bulmer o r Bonner, Ellsabeth Anderson, Jane Huntor, Jane Koupling, Margret Brown, Margret Moffet, Katteren Welsh, alias Coulter, Aylles Hume, and Marie Pootes.
Josh Hutchinson: Katie, I can't tell you how much I've learned from everything that you, I've really learned a lot from you. And I look at how you mentioned how you were looking at other memorials and what other communities have done with the history to [00:50:00] implement and look at what, how you can reach your goals in Newcastle, but I feel like what you've done is so historic and is such a case study in itself and something for other communities to model after. It's incredible.
Katie Liddane: That's really nice to hear, thank you. I again, when I started the PhD, and with the blue sky thinking of the memorial project, I would really like to build a network or engage in a community of areas with witch hunting histories and to learn from each other, to a certain extent, and build an awareness of the witch hunts that fit into a wider understanding of the phenomenon and how you do find specific details that tie the cases to a region, but that also tap into a wider sense of communal memorialization and [00:51:00] its continuing relevance today. It would be great to be able to be further in touch with, with the people.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah we do know a few people in Salem and Danvers, Massachusetts that were involved in the memorials. Have you been able to talk to anyone there?
Katie Liddane: We're still in the early stages of reaching out to that extent, but I did read a lot about the 2016 memorial determining the execution site, and that seems like it was a very intensive project with a lot of researchers and historians that are referenced in my thesis.
Josh Hutchinson: So again, when we have a kind of firmer idea of where we're going with this project, would be brilliant to reach out to those people, too. I've already been in contact with people at Colchester Castle, where some of Matthew Hopkins' [00:52:00] accused were held and in discussion with Lancaster Castle, who were very helpful during my thesis, too.
Sarah Jack: I don't know that I've paid attention enough or I just haven't heard it, but hearing those two terms together, the Witchcraft Heritage, just is like a wake up call for me on messaging and the community engagement piece. I'm so appreciative of that layer of your work.
Katie Liddane: Thank you. It was really, a really interesting thing to be able to explore and to go back to what we were talking about earlier too. It's quite hard to articulate in my thesis of this, in a sense, dichotomy between witch kitsch and memorialization, but to articulate the idea that there is an interwoven relationship between the two.
Katie Liddane: And as you said earlier, I don't think we're ever going to be able to separate them entirely, but I think [00:53:00] witchcraft heritage is a very nuanced topic, and a community to discuss that in is very valuable, especially with regards to sites that are only just moving towards memorialization or moving towards the more nuanced look at their region's witch hunting past.
Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one thing that I believe, and I think this especially about Salem, is that the witch kitsch draws people in, and then it gives the historians the opportunity to present the nuanced history to new learners, because there's always a supply of tourists coming in willing to learn.
Katie Liddane: So the relationship is definitely much more complicated than witch kitsch tourism businesses and historians. And so far as we can know about what [00:54:00] happened in places like Salem and Lancaster and Pendle, the detailed documented evidence that we do have does, have to engage with witch kitsch in order for that message to be heard, in a way, so a lot of the way that people do learn about Newcastle Witch Trials in the first instance is through ghost tours, the escape room, and the article, but the important part is when they want to find out more where historians and heritage professionals can step in, so I definitely agree with the witch kitsch being a huge draw at Salem, the interpretation definitely doesn't stop there.
Sarah Jack: I'm just I've just had this realization with Connecticut, one of the questions that we keep having to answer is how can we move forward with highlighting the history and memorials [00:55:00] without the sensationalizing happening? Of course, I'm also seeing this lore that is important to the local culture, but I know that what has the answer is we embrace and develop the heritage, just like we do the other heritage of the history, and we haven't been highlighting that in an articulated way, and I think that can be an answer for that question on gathering some support from stakeholders there.
Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think the witch kitsch is always going to be there in some form, but being able to build something else from that and around that does recognize, again, the humanity of the accused and having a relationship with witch kitsch to a certain extent is very important in raising awareness and recognition of these people as [00:56:00] people. I had a particularly frustrating time in trying to track down one of the strangest misconceptions about the Newcastle Witches, and it was that Matthew Bulmer, the only male defendant, transformed into a black cat and led a load of children to fall down a well in Winleton or Winlayton, the a village in Gateshead.
Katie Liddane: And I haven't been able to substantiate that at all, but the black cat figure is so prominent within witchcraft history that I can, not academically, but I can speculate as to where that came from. But I spent a lot of time emailing the different places that it pops up, and they all assumed that they'd picked it up from the other person.
Katie Liddane: Trying to disentangle where folklore, myth, and witch kitsch becomes involved has been quite difficult, [00:57:00] but has really illustrated the kind of inextricable relationship between 17th century witchcraft history and pop cultural engagements with the witch as a figure in general. And unfortunately, I think the kind of black cat into a well story is more exciting for a lot of people than Matthew Bulmer being a blacksmith that had arguments with his neighbours.
Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
Mary Louise Bingham: Rebecca Fox was distraught, because her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was arrested under false pretenses for the capital crime of witchcraft at Salem, Massachusetts Bay, British America, in 1692. Rebecca Jacobs languished in the Salem jail for six months when her mother drafted the second of two petitions on her daughter's behalf. This petition was addressed to the Governor's Council at Boston. Rebecca [00:58:00] Fox advised the magistrates that her daughter was, quote, 'crazed and distracted in her mind for the last 12 years,' end quote. Rebecca asked them to show leniency, because she feared her daughter's mental illness could not withstand the deplorable prison conditions. Rebecca's petitions remain unanswered.
Mary Louise Bingham: Because these petitions have been preserved, we know today that Rebecca Fox's love and devotion for her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was unwavering. Here is a short quote by Rebecca Fox to the council, quote, 'Your petitioner, her tender mother, has many great sorrows and almost overcoming burdens on her mind upon my daughter's account. Your petitioner has no way for help but to make my afflicted daughter's condition known to you, end quote.' And she signed this document, 'your [00:59:00] sorrowful and distressed petitioner, Rebecca Fox.' Thank you.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
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This is National Women's History Month. Women have been pivotal and influential across all facets of human history. In March, the United States pays tribute to the enduring legacy and contributions of women throughout its history. National Women's History Month celebrates U. S. women's achievements and struggles. Originating from an 1857 protest by garment workers in New York City against poor working conditions, it evolved into the nation's first Women's Day in 1909 after a significant march for labor rights and suffrage. Official recognition came in 1981 when Congress designated the second week of March as National Women's History Week, later expanding it to a month in 1987. The month is a reflection on women's progress.
During Women's History Month, End Witch Hunts extends a heartfelt appreciation to the exceptional contributions and resilience of marginalized American women. Their narratives, deeply embedded in a diverse tapestry of rich cultural heritages, are essential to the fabric of our collective history. As [01:01:00] educators, these women have imparted wisdom and knowledge across generations, shaping the minds and spirits of future leaders. Their leadership in social and political arenas has been pivotal, driving forward movements of justice, equality, and transformative change with unwavering courage and vision.
Who are our marginalized women? Marginalized women encompass a diverse array of identities and face unique challenges and barriers. These are women of color, indigenous women, LGBTQ women, those with disabilities, the elderly, the impoverished, immigrants and refugees, survivors of violence, single mothers, and those living in conflict zones. Their experiences, marked by intersectional forms of discrimination, underline the pressing need for inclusive support and advocacy. This list is not exhaustive and can intersect, leading to compounded forms of discrimination and marginalization.
Despite marginalization, women have broken through barriers across the arts, sciences, and business, introducing bold perspectives [01:02:00] that challenge restrictive narratives and significantly enhance our collective insight. Their creativity and intelligence has been a beacon of innovation, redefining what it means to lead and excel in a myriad of fields. As entrepreneurs, they have fueled economic growth and community development, highlighting the strength that lies in diversity. Their achievements are monumental, not only in their communities, but in shaping the course of American history.
As we celebrate American women, let us commit to recognizing their invaluable contributions, advocating for their rights, and ensuring that their voices are heard and celebrated. Read about their stories, write their stories, amplify their voices. Their voices, frequently sidelined in dominant narratives must play a pivotal role in leading future generations.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:03:00]

March 12, 2024

Service Magic with Tabitha Stanmore

Cunning Folk: Life in the Era of Practical Magic, by Dr. Tabitha Stanmore

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Show Notes

This new episode of “Witch Hunt” features Dr. Tabitha Stanmore, discussing her research on service magic in 14th to 17th century Great Britain with Salem witch trial descendants Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack. She explains the concept of service magic, its practices, and the difference between service magicians and witches. Dr. Stanmore also touches on the impact of religious changes and laws on magic practices. Various aspects of magic, including healing methods, divination techniques, and the use of magic in daily life are delved into. Additionally, she shares about her soon to release book, “Cunning Folk: Life in the Era of Practical Magic” and her collaboration on the Seven County Witch Hunt Project, which looks at the Matthew Hopkins witch trials of the 1640s. The discussion concludes with a reflection on the legacy of witch hunts and their impact on families and communities. Anyone can submit written testimony for MA Bill H.1803. Simply write a short letter stating why this bill is important to: Judiciary Committee at 24 Beacon Street, Room 136, Boston, MA 02133 or by e-mail to michael.musto@mahouse.gov. 

Recommended Reading

Seven County Witch Hunts Project Blog

United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks

Papua New Guinea Sorcery and Witchcraft Accusation-Related Violence National Action Plan

Pan African Parliament Guidelines for Addressing Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks

Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights: Study on the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization

Websites of Note

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

Film: Testimony of Ana

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

Storymap explaining the dynamics of sorcery accusation related violence

Stop Sorcery Violence

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that asks how and why we hunt witches and how we can stop. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.

Josh Hutchinson: I'm a descendant of several people accused of witchcraft during the Salem Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: And I have grandmothers who were tried for witchcraft in Salem, Boston, and Hartford.

Josh Hutchinson: On Witch Hunt, we talk about the witch trials of old and the epidemic of witch hunts today.

Sarah Jack: Witch hunts have occurred in all parts of the world, and they've never stopped.

Josh Hutchinson: Today, witch hunts continue to occur in all corners of the globe, resulting in banishment, torture, and even death.

Sarah Jack: In this episode, we're focusing [00:01:00] on the witchcraft of the past.

Josh Hutchinson: Specifically we're dialed into the service magic of 14th to 17th century Great Britain.

Sarah Jack: Our guest, Dr. Tabitha Stanmore, tells us about her upcoming book, Cunning Folk: Life in the Era of Practical Magic.

Josh Hutchinson: She explains what service magic is and how it was used in the past.

Sarah Jack: Listen on for a great discussion about what types of service magic were practiced and who practiced them.

Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Stanmore even explains the methods used.

Sarah Jack: And we hear about what she is working on next.

Josh Hutchinson: So sit back and enjoy another mind-expanding episode of Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: We welcome Dr. Tabitha Stanmore, author and social historian of magic, witchcraft, and researcher at the University of Exeter, working with Professor Marion Gibson on the Seven County Witch Hunt Project.

Tabitha Stanmore: My name is Dr. Tabitha Stanmore, [00:02:00] and I am a research fellow at the University of Exeter, currently researching the Matthew Hopkins Witch Trials of the 1640s. But my PhD research was in service magic or practical magic in the late medieval, early modern period stretching from 1350 to 1650, which is what my first academic book was about and what the book that I have coming out this year is also about.

Sarah Jack: Does your new book have a title?

Tabitha Stanmore: Yes, it's Cunning Folk: Life in the Era of Practical Magic.

Josh Hutchinson: So looking forward to that. That comes out in May?

Tabitha Stanmore: It comes out in May, May 2nd in the UK and May 28th in the US. and yeah, it should be very exciting. I hope it's going to be very exciting. I've seen the book covers and I'm going to get the actual, physical copies in my hand at some point next week, which is, I just can't believe it's real, actually, it's great.

Josh Hutchinson: Excellent. Yeah. I've pre ordered a [00:03:00] copy, and I'm just waiting and waiting.

Tabitha Stanmore: Oh, that's so kind.

Tabitha Stanmore: Thank you.

Sarah Jack: What do we need to know about the time period and location of your service magic research?

Tabitha Stanmore: So my research focuses on the 14th through 17th century. So that's roughly 1350 when more records start becoming available, and so it's much easier to trace the line of magic in society from that point. And I finish up in 1650 because that is the period where the world really starts changing again in a dramatic way, and after the end of the 17th century, or even middle of the 17th century, society has changed so much that it's not a very useful comparative point anymore, especially in the location that I look at, which is England. And, obviously, 1650, that is the end of the English Civil Wars, which saw the beheading of Charles I, and the, the beginning of the Commonwealth, or, the [00:04:00] Commonwealth, the brief point where England didn't have a monarchy.

Tabitha Stanmore: So I decided it was a good point to stop because at that point we get a real, massive change in society and a massive change in the way that people were living their lives and approaching things and this kind of rise of, I suppose science isn't quite the right word, but skepticism in a new way, which means that the idea of magic changes at that point.

Tabitha Stanmore: But also, 300 years is enough to be getting on with, so 1350 1650, is a, it's a really formative period, I think, for English society, but also a really key point for magical practice in England, and where it starts, it really features very strongly in how people live their day to day lives and try to incorporate both the supernatural and religion and, I suppose, rational skepticism in their daily lives, as well.

Josh Hutchinson: What exactly is service magic?

Tabitha Stanmore: Service [00:05:00] magic is a term that has, I suppose it's relatively new. It's only about 10 years or so that we've been using the term service magic. And it's basically magic, practical magic, that was sold to people in exchange for a fee. So it's literally what it sounds like actually. It's something that you buy and sell. It's a commodity, but it's a supernatural commodity. Basically it's the kind of thing that you use in order to solve everyday problems.

Tabitha Stanmore: Let's say you've had your favorite horse stolen and you don't know who's taken it and you don't know where it's gone. You might go to a magician or somebody who has very strong sort of magical or supernatural skills and ask them to perform a spell to locate either the horse or the person who stole it, so that you can then confront the supposed thief and demand your horse back. Or maybe you'll even ask a magician to perform a spell to force the horse to return, by whatever magical means necessary.

Tabitha Stanmore: It sounds quite [00:06:00] fantastical, but it was something which was incredibly common for people in the medieval and early modern periods, becauseinsurance hadn't really been, hadn't become a widespread thing at that point. A lot of people were living in a very sort of subsisting kind of way, which meant that if you lost something that was valuable, you needed to get it back, and there weren't many other ways of doing it, and you couldn't afford to just lose something. Turning to magic and having people who had the skills to use magic in this way were very, very highly prized.

Sarah Jack: How does service magic differ from witchcraft?

Tabitha Stanmore: That's a great question. If you asked a modern magical practitioner how they differed, I would probably expect them to say that there isn't very much difference at all, because I think with terms like cunning folk or magician or witch, they're almost synonymous in most people's minds nowadays. They are people who are wise, they're people who have supernatural powers that most people don't have access to, [00:07:00] they're people who embrace the supernatural powers that other people fear.

Tabitha Stanmore: But in the 17th century, 16th century, 15th century, the service magicians and witches would have been seen as very, very different people. And the reason for that is because in the medieval or early modern mind, there was an idea that there are two sources or maybe three sources of power that you can tap into if you deal with the supernatural. The first one is religious or divine power. And that's the kind of thing that priests are using on a daily basis, because they have this incredibly powerful supernatural entity, which ultimately that's what God is. He is literally above nature, can break the laws of nature at will. And that's something that religious people, priests especially, can tap into and use in order to change the world. Cunning folk would often say that they used the same kind of power.

Tabitha Stanmore: They'd [00:08:00] say that their spells were prayers. They're calling on the divine, or they're calling on saints to make things happen. They might also say that they were using fairies or pixies or some other kind of pseudonatural, but also supernatural entity to help them do whatever they were doing, especially if that was something like finding stolen goods. Going and asking the fairies was a very common way of finding out where your stolen spoon or your stolen horse had gone.

Tabitha Stanmore: So they're using very benign practices in order to do useful things,these cunning folk, and also priests. Witches, on the other hand, were seen as people who were using dark forces to do bad, negative things. So a witch was seen as somebody who had probably sold their soul to the devil, or at least was using demonic forces, and they were using these demonic forces to do harm in some way, whether that was killing people, destroying crops, in one case making somebody's mill fall down on a completely [00:09:00] still day when it shouldn't have happened at all, and all of a sudden the mill just collapses right in front of the miller. How does that happen? There is no logical explanation. It must be demonic, and it must be somebody bearing a grudge and using their demonic power to cause this harm.

Tabitha Stanmore: So there was a very clear separation in people's minds most of the time between a beneficent cunning person and a malevolent witch. That does all get very muddied when you start looking at theologians and particularly zealous priests and especially when you get into the Puritan movement of the late 16th and 17th centuries, where priests andvery, very godly people would argue that there is no in-between.

Tabitha Stanmore: Basically, you can't have somebody who's using supernatural powers that clearly aren't being brought by God, unless they are using demons, and people like George Gifford, who was a Puritan preacher living in the late 16th century, argued very strongly that nobody who claims to be able [00:10:00] to just heal by, I don't know,just saying some words over somebody could possibly be using God's divine intervention. So they must be using demons. And therefore you do get this mixing of cunning folk and witchcraft, but for most people they would be very, very separate things.

Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.

Josh Hutchinson: I like the period that you cover, because it's so dynamic. There's so much change in it, referenced a little, the change in attitudes toward the source of magical power that a service magician might get. And, in addition to the attitudes, the laws changed. When the Acts Against Conjuration or Witchcraft came in, how did that impact the service magic industry?

Tabitha Stanmore: That's a great question, and it's super interesting, because in some ways, not very much. The Acts Against Conjuration and Witchcraft, and you've absolutely, you're right to use those terms, because they're often called the [00:11:00] Witchcraft Acts, and actually, witchcraft only gets mentioned in the second half of all of these acts, and the first part is very much about conjurations and practical service magic.

Tabitha Stanmore: So some of the things that service magicians would commonly be asked to do was healing, finding lost goods, treasure hunting, making people fall in love. And three out of those four things are mentioned in the Acts Against Conjuration. Treasure hunting was seen as a massive no no, partly because officially any gold or silver found in the ground belonged to the crown. So using magic to be able to dig this stuff up was actually stealing from the crown, which is one of the reasons I think it got mentioned in these acts. So that was very, very heavily penalized in the first act against conjurations, brought in under Henry VIII. It was actually punishable by death,as well as provoking people to unlawful love, and finding lost goods and receiving money for finding lost goods through magical meansis, name checked as very, very bad things that people shouldn't be doing.

Tabitha Stanmore: From my own [00:12:00] research, it doesn't look like anybody actually stopped doing any of these things as a result of this legislation, partly I think because some of the law, the first law against conjurations say under Henry VIII, was so harsh that even magistrates weren't particularly keen on prosecuting this because nobody wants to be sentenced to death for, digging up a field, but also because these services were just so useful.If people don't have any other way of finding their stolen horse, then prosecuting that and stamping out that kind of service just isn't going to last very long. So yeah, it didn't really stop anything from happening in that sense, but there is still a growing sense of concern about what sorts of powers cunning folk might have, because they are lumped together in the Witchcraft and Conjurations Act with witches. And then there's that question of, oh, if you can do this kind of magic, then can you also do this negative kind of magic? So that sort of brings a cultural shift. But in terms of [00:13:00] how often magic was practiced, it probably didn't change it very much.

Tabitha Stanmore: What I will say is that one of the other massive changes that happens in this period between 1350 and 1650 is the Reformation, so the change of the state religion from Catholicism to Protestantism or Anglicanism, as it later becomes. And that does spark a big change in magic, basically because orthodox or acceptable Catholic practices all of a sudden become seen as superstition.Appealing to saints, using prayers to heal, that kind of thing, they all start being seen as quite suspicious under Protestant, doctrine. at that point you start seeing priests potentially who were doing perfectly orthodox things five years ago suddenly being seen as potential magicians who are using their nefarious, popish knowledge to form spells and possibly being in league with the devil as a result of that, because obviously there's a very heavy idea among different Protestant sects that the [00:14:00] Catholics are actually in league with the devil. So that's a really interesting way that the kind of religion suddenly becomes sacrilege and therefore possibly magic, at least in the eyes of some people.

Josh Hutchinson: I'm wondering if that change influenced the number of service magician, magician service practitioners out there, because before the Reformation in the Catholic Church, you can go to the priest for certain things to have objects blessed and your home blessed. And now you can't go to the priest for that anymore. He's not going to do some of the Catholic rituals. So you have to go to somebody still. So I'm just wondering, did that have an influence maybe on increasing the number of lay practitioners?

Tabitha Stanmore: It's a really interesting question. there's some really interesting research by Francis Young, about what happened to monks After the on both before and after the Reformation, because the monasteries are dissolved. All [00:15:00] of a sudden you have a lot of very highly trained religious people who have an ability to read Latin, they understand things like exorcism rituals, they understandall the rituals that, around essentially conjuring and appeasing God. And they are released into society. Some of them obviously go to the continent andjoin monastic institutions in Catholic countries.

Tabitha Stanmore: Other ones stay in England, at which point, you know what, what does happen to them? And it's very possible that some of them did, yeah, end up going out to become magicians for hire, essentially. Whether that's how they saw themselves is debatable. I mean, probably not. But it does mean that, yeah, you do have an alternative option to this kind of like orthodox I'm sure you're all familiar with the idea of Protestant priests, that people obviously turn to for religious help, but also potentially magical help as well.

Tabitha Stanmore: And you do also see a very strong competition going on both before and after the Reformation between cunning folk and priests, with priests going, ' please [00:16:00] can my parishioners stop visiting all of these cunning folk?' They're taking away my business. Because obviously one thing that priests often did wasadminister to the spiritual needs of their community, and that includes the things like blessing fields, helping people to be fertile again, possibly by blessing water and letting people drink it, which kind of borders on superstition even for the Catholicism, but if people are going off to a cunning person instead to get this help or to get healing or spells or prayers, then it is actually taking away from both the income and the use of the church, which was dealt with in two ways.

Tabitha Stanmore: One way was priests complaining and saying, no, this shouldn't be done. We should be stopping this. We should be trying to stamp out this kind of magic. Or priests leaning into it and just selling spells themselves. Which I just, I love. I think it's really wonderful. It's got the adaptability of people and the kind of the grey area between religion and magic. But really clearly shouldn't come through in those kind of examples.

Sarah Jack: What are some [00:17:00] other primary uses of service magic?

Tabitha Stanmore: Healing is definitely the most common, by a long way. And again, before we started recording, we mentioned that everybody on this call currently has a cold, and they don't seem to be going anywhere. and that's, that's obviously true of all of history, right? There's always been sickness. There's always been annoying illnesses that can't be shifted or life-threatening diseases. And especially before the advent of things like antibiotics or vaccines, there is a sort of an endemic sickness, among the population.

Tabitha Stanmore: So a medicine isn't particularly effective a lot of the time. It's very good at treating symptoms. It's not necessarily very good at treating disease. So turning to magic again, kind of makes a lot of sense in that situation, especially when you're using prayer spells. So you're very much appealing to a higher power to say, St. Justinian, for example, please, cure my toothache.It might be the only thing that works, frankly. [00:18:00] So healing was incredibly common. That was one of the things that cunning folk were asked to do the most. Another one was protection, protection in battle, protection for sailors when they are out at sea, to protect them from storms.And I think the most touching one is the amount that magic was used in love spell in. in situations about spells used for love, whether that's making people fall in love with each other or actually breaking people up, potentially, because you're so in love with somebody and they've gone and married somebody else. What are you going to do about that? It's probably a spell that you can use to break that couple up so that you can get that person. And, yeah, again, that's a very, very common use, which was very likely prosecuted a lot of the time, because a lot of the time love magic, it's about community cohesion. It's about keeping people together, especially the number of spells that are often, directed at making a husband and wife get along better, whether that's making the husband less cantankerous or making the wife fall in love with her husband again.[00:19:00] Those kinds of things, they were often available and very simple spells a lot of the time, which kind of, again, I think shows quite how common they must have been.

Tabitha Stanmore: There's one woman in the 15th century who apparently used to wash her husband's shirts in holy water because apparently that made him meek and pliable for the rest of the week. And she must have heard that spell from somewhere. She was also sharing it with her neighbors and passing on that knowledge, which I guess isn't so much service magic. But it is a very obvious use of magic that people needed, and I don't know how many people took up her advice, but she certainly seemed to think it would work, and had been doing it for years by the time she finally got reported to the authorities as potentially not using holy water in the way it was intended.

Josh Hutchinson: One of the uses you talk about is divination. What are some of the key methods used to divine?

Tabitha Stanmore: There are so many, and again, it's fascinating to see how much things [00:20:00] evolve and get adapted according to people's needs, and clearlythey're in trial and error with these spells. One of my favorite forms of divination, which sounds deeply impractical but I love, is the bread and knives method, and that's basically where you take a loaf of bread, and you stick two knives into the sides of the loaf in a cross shape, and then you put a peg in the top of the loaf, and then you, I think you turn it upside down, and then you hold the peg between your hands, and you ask a yes or no question, and basically the bread will spin one way for no and one way for yes. I've only found two instances of it being used. And I think, again, it's because it's so impractical. I did try it once to see if it would work. And you need some really stale bread, you need some very sharp knives, you need a very short hand, so you don't just drop it on your foot. But it's really interesting, because it's a method that is [00:21:00] replicated with different tools, but they all sort of work on the same principle, which is, you ask a binary question, as I say, a yes or no, or is my child going to be a boy or a girl, so one way for boy, one way for girl, or, I don't know. Am I going to get married soon? Yes or no? That kind of thing. And the cross shape I think is quite important, because it's again, it's drawing on that higher power and in this case, probably Jesus. And it's something which is simple, but only certain people, again, could possibly practice it, because you do need somebody who's got that sort of power within them, much like anybody could buy a pack of tarot cards today, but only some people are very good at reading them and have an affinity with them. You get the same kind of thing going on with divination methods. So as I say,the loaf and knives method fell out of popularity probably quite quickly. It appears in the 14th century, doesn't really appear in any other centuries, and mostly around the London area, as well, and doesn't seem to have spread very far after that.

Tabitha Stanmore: More common versions of the same [00:22:00] basic principle are the Sieve and Shears, which is, again, lots of different methods, but basically you take a pair of kind of sheep shearing shears or large scissors and put a sieve on top of those and then ask questions once the sieve is balanced on the top. And again, the sieve will tilt one way for yes, one way for no, and this is much more practical. You're not going to destroy a loaf of bread every time you attempt it. And you're also going to be able to, pretty much anybody will be able to use this method because everybody would probably own a pair of shears and everybody would own a sieve.

Tabitha Stanmore: The fancier version of this divination method is the book and key, and that is one that pretty much only priests used or people who had a very high level of education, because it would use either a Psalter or a Bible, and you'd place a big heavy key inside of the book. And you'd hold the book in between your two bald fists, and then you would ask your [00:23:00] question. And often if it was finding stolen goods that you were trying to find out with this method, then you would start by saying something like, 'by St. Peter and St. Paul, Tony's stolen my horse.' And if the key fell out, then that would be the right answer.But yeah, as I say, this is something that only some people will be able to do, because not everybody had access to printed works and especially not something as sacred as a Bible. And that's by St. Peter and St. Paul, you're definitely summoning divine intervention to make this work. Again, condemned by the church. Still used by the church . And again, a simpler method of that, is just taking a Bible and just opening it at a random page. And the first line from the gospel that you see is the answer to your question, which,some will call that just basic religion or just guesswork, but people would definitely see it as a very reliable form of divination, depending on the answer. So these are some of my favourite ones. I could go on about this forever as you can probably [00:24:00] tell, so let me know if you want any more.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm so glad you explained the Sieve and Shears and the Book and Key. Those actually turn up in New England in the Salem Witch Trials. Both of those methods are said to be used.

Tabitha Stanmore: Yeah, it's definitely an import, that.

Josh Hutchinson: And what are some key methods of healing?

Tabitha Stanmore: One of my favourite methods, which probably wouldn't have worked very well at all, comes from the 14th century, and it's probably quite a lot older than that. And it's basically, again, very strongly religious, it involved saying a short phrase in Latin, something similar to, 'as Mary sufferedin the birth of Jesus, may this person's suffering end,' essentially, or something like that. And while saying that, you would put your fingers into the wound that somebody had sustained, and [00:25:00] make the sign of a cross. Which, given that a lot of these spells do actually have a very strong logic behind them, this one makes no sense to me, because you're just going to be opening up that wound. But I suppose the idea is that you are also inserting some sort of um, ,cleansing in it, because of the, the mercy that Christ showed, to humanity, and the idea of the cleansing of sins and that kind of thing. You might be trying to cleanse the wound by putting the power of the cross inside it.

Tabitha Stanmore: More effective methods, potentially, were ones that involved writing spells onto food, pieces of food, sometimes things like communion wafers, sometimes bread, sometimes cheese, and giving that to the sick person to eat.

Tabitha Stanmore: And I say it would be more effective partly because we all recognise that the placebo effect exists, and so that kind of, that knowledge that you are being cared for and that sort of hope that will be attached to that spell, might well be exactly what you [00:26:00] need, basically, to kind of power you through and overcome your illness.

Tabitha Stanmore: Again, it is something that not everybody could do, sometimes you need to know the right words, and some people just had a better understanding of healing and whether or not this was a lost cause, and often, spells would be combined with other healing methods as well. And that's something that you see with magical drinks, which were also given as a method of healing. Again, they would normally come with some kind of chant that you would do over the the potion.

Tabitha Stanmore: But the things that went into the potions were often things which would be very helpful for curing the disease in the first place. So things like honey, things like garlic, aqua vitae, which is a catch all term for all sorts of different sort of medical concoctions that involve a lot of different herbs. And and often these herbs would have either anesthetic effects or antibacterial effects, as well. So they could genuinely do good, even without the kind of the placebo effect or without the magic that's been [00:27:00] mixed into them.

Tabitha Stanmore: Often healing spells do combine belief, that kind of, the idea of divine power or some other kind of higher power, as well as very strong experience that the cunning person would possess and use as part of their healing. And again, you see that combination in diagnostic services. A lot of cunning healers would try to diagnose somebody's illness, especially if it was something which had come on very suddenly or was just not going away and there wasn't an obvious cause for it. They'd try to diagnose whether or not somebody had been touched by a fairy or whether they'd been bewitched by a malevolent witch. And they do this by taking the patient's belt or girdle and measuring it. And they basically measure it between their extended thumb and their elbow and see, they actually never explain exactly what they see when they're measuring this girdle.[00:28:00]

Tabitha Stanmore: But what I'm guessing is that they're seeing how much weight the person has lost,and if it has been a dramatic weight loss over a very short period of time, then often they would come to the conclusion that this person had been touched by a fairy and they had some kind of terrible wasting sickness. And in that case the cure would be to try to appease the fairies, it would be to try to drive out the curse that somebody had put on the person or try to somehow otherwise fortify the person so they could get through the illness, but they'd use this diagnostic tool to say what the illness is in the first place and also whether the person had any hope of survival.

Tabitha Stanmore: And cunning folk would choose their cases accordingly. If they didn't think this person had any chance of surviving, they would be honest about that. They'd say, 'look, I'm sorry, this person's too far gone, the fairies have got him, there's nothing I can do.' But if there was some hope that they, a person could be saved, and they suspected that it was [00:29:00] witchcraft especially, then one of the things that they would start by doing is potentially performing counter witchcraft.

Tabitha Stanmore: So a very common method for that would be to take a flask of the patient's urine, and this is from the 17th century onwards, it's not particularly common in the 16th century, but it's a continental European import into England. But yeah, you take a flask of the person's urine, you'd put pins and a piece of red fabric or potentially something in the shape of a heart into that flask and then you would stopper it up and you would boil it in the fire or bury it somewhere, and the idea is that that would cause so much pain to the person who would cast the spell in the first place that it would basically rebound and then the witch would be obliged to lift the curse, or at least you'd be able to identify who the witch was and then force them to lift the curse, either by scratching and drawing blood, because that removes some of their power, or by just [00:30:00] intimidating them until they lifted the curse.

Tabitha Stanmore: So there's lots and lots of different tools in a cunning person's arsenal.

Sarah Jack: Would somebody inquire for the services of a magic practitioner to do a curse or harm their neighbor or family or spouse?

Tabitha Stanmore: Yes, although it very much depends on the intention behind it, whether your community would condemn you as somebody who is trying to use witchcraft or not. Again, going back to the stolen goods example, it would be relatively common to say, 'oh, my horse has been stolen, I am going to go to a cunning person and get that cunning person to curse the thief until the horse comes back.' And that wasn't seen as witchcraft, because it's more like restoring justice than doing harm for no reason. And that's quite an important distinction in people's minds. Because again, if you're doing something, if you're causing harm for the right reason, then you [00:31:00] can potentially ask for God's intervention in that, you can potentially ask fairies or whatever. You don't need to be using devilish or malevolent powers to be able to do that.

Tabitha Stanmore: So yeah, so if you're using a cunning person to, even if you're causing, you want them to cause real serious harm or pain, so long as it's for a good reason, it's okay. If you're just doing it because you're just filled with spite, that's when it tips into witchcraft, which does take a little bit of moral arithmetic, but it kind of works.

Josh Hutchinson: I'm not gonna lie, when I started this research, I did not expect it to go in the direction it did. And I, it's really changed my perspective on, on the early modern period, on the witch trials, on witchcraft and people's belief systems and everything else, because it's so different to what I expected.

Tabitha Stanmore: And I didn't realize quite how much magic there was going on, until I started this.

Josh Hutchinson:

Josh Hutchinson: You talked earlier about some [00:32:00] of the healing. They would write things down on food or paper and swallow it. And what were some of the other ways that Christian scripture and teachings were used in magic?

Tabitha Stanmore: I suppose one of the most famous ways, when you think about it, is exorcism rituals, because one of the things that ritual magicians in particular, so very learned magicians who had knowledge of Latin and other sort of sacred languages, one of the things that they could do with their knowledge was repurpose Orthodox Christian knowledge,and, as I say, rituals.Exorcisms obviously are intended to conjure a demon out of a person or an item, but the same method and more or less exactly the same words can be used to conjure a demon into something, whether that is a person, [00:33:00] which doesn't happen too often, thank goodness, but much more commonly into a magic circle, for example.

Tabitha Stanmore: So, that use of scripture, again, often by priests or people who trained as priests and then left their training early so they didn't actually have to take orders or monks would use this power, in order to summon demons and bend them to their will. And the things that they use the demons for vary from incredibly noble to hilarious. For example, on the noble end there is the ability to understand the secrets of the universe and understand the nature of God. So think Dr. Faustus style. He's reached the end of human knowledge, now he wants to understand the secrets of the universe, so he summons a demon, makes a deal, and, well, he thinks that he's forced a demon to tell him all these things. And ritual magicians who were careful about their work [00:34:00] definitely thought that they hadsubjugated a demon to their will, in order to answer their questions aboutthe higher powers.

Tabitha Stanmore: On the funnier end of the spectrum was summoning a demon, or even an angel, in order to learn Latin really fast so that you could get out of your lessons quicker, or summon a demon into a magic ring to make you better at gambling. Or even, potentially, summon a demon, make them look like an incredibly beautiful woman so that you can sleep with them. Real spectrum of human interests there, all of which come down to using Christian scripture in ways that it probably wasn't designed for, but the point of this is that scripture, especially when it was written in Latin, was seen to have power in its own right.

Tabitha Stanmore: It's not almost not even just the divine power. It's the fact that these sounds, these syllables, this conjunction of words in itself is enough. You don't really need to understand it to be able to [00:35:00] use it, which actually is why in some medieval, late medieval, medical texts from the 13th and 14th centuries, you have instructions from the author saying, 'do not share this particular healing charm,' which is sometimes written down in a medical text. 'Don't share this with the wider population because they'll misuse it, because you don't have to understand it in order to make it work.' Bit gatekeepery, but in some cases you can understand why.

Josh Hutchinson: That reminds me of Harry Potter, you still have that, that Latin as magical language kind of thing in our society today. There's these magical words, abracadabra or avaracadabra, if you're a Harry Potter fan.

Josh Hutchinson: Absolutely. And I actually, that's something that always bothered me about the Harry Potter books. Like at no point do they actually learn the theory of magic. And I feel like that's a massive oversight, Yeah, they don't know how it works. They're just. They're cooking the [00:36:00] meal with the ingredients, but they don't know how it all comes together.

Tabitha Stanmore: Exactly. Yeah. It's rote learning and it's lazy, frankly.

Sarah Jack: Right now, I believe you're working on the Seven County Witch Hunt Project. Is that right?

Tabitha Stanmore: Yes, yeah it is. Yeah, so it's a three year, Leverhulme-funded research project with Professor Marion Gibson. I think it's really exciting. So we're looking at what we're calling England's mass witch hunt. So it was the largest witch hunt in England, as far as we know, and it took place during the English Civil War in the 1640s. And it's estimated that about 300 people were accused across seven counties, and of that, over 100 were executed. The thing that this project is trying to pin down is all of the details within that. We don't know exactly how many people were prosecuted, we don't know how many people were executed, we don't know the names of some of those people, and we certainly [00:37:00] don't know the backgrounds of those people either, or what kind of roles they played in their communities, or the kinds of psychological scars that the communities possibly ended up with as a result of these hunts.

Tabitha Stanmore: There's been an over focus, I think, on Matthew Hopkins, the so-called Witchfinder General, and his, co-searcher, John Stearne. And yeah, this project is trying to reorient our knowledge and our focus to look at the accused themselves and their families. So one thing I'm looking at within that, and I'd love to come back onto your podcast at some point and talk about this because I'm very excited about it, is, the children of suspected witches. Because as far as I know, we haven't, nobody's really looked into that in any detail. We do tend to look at the children of witches if they subsequently get accused of witchcraft. But, for example, we have 300 people who were accused, and almost all of those had children. [00:38:00] And we don't know the fates of those, what, did they stay within their communities? Did they end up going to prison alongside their parents? Did they carry a taint for the rest of their lives of being the children of witches? Or were they able to reinvent themselves? We just don't know. And I think that's a massive oversight and one that could tell us quite a lot about early modern witchcraft and the early modern capacity to forgive and forget, which at the moment is just a massive question mark,in our knowledge of the past.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We definitely want you to come back and talk to us about that and anything else you want to talk to us about. We looked a little into children of the Connecticut witch trial victims. It's very fascinating what ends up happening with the families, like Sarah and I have ancestors who were accused. And so we know a little bit about what happened with our ancestors' families. And it's like you said, that trauma [00:39:00] is there no matter what the result of the accusation is. There's an impact.

Tabitha Stanmore: Absolutely. Yeah. Sorry. I definitely should have been a bit clearer about that. Within England, we don't know very much about the fates, but yeah, it's really exciting to see how much we actually do know about some of the legacies. in, in the U. S. for sure. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating and well done for being alive now.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. Yeah. Some of my ancestors and Sarah's, were acquitted and released and managed to recover and raise their families and everything. Others weren't as fortunate, but their children lived on and carried their names on.

Tabitha Stanmore: Honestly, the more I look into the early modern period, the more amazed I am that anybody survived it, really. um,

Josh Hutchinson: Just surviving to get born in the first place was so harrowing. Yeah.

Tabitha Stanmore: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. it's absolutely amazing. it's real testament to [00:40:00] human, I don't know, resourcefulness, hope, I'm not sure, but yeah, it's really amazing.

Sarah Jack:

Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

Mary-Louise Bingham: There was a woman living in Cambridge, Massachusetts, British America, indicted for the capital crime of witchcraft in 1665. She is only known to us today as Female Gleason. The reason we know of her existence at all is because her surname is mentioned in the book, Entertaining Satan, authored by John Putnam Demos.

Mary-Louise Bingham: I am sad that I have not yet found a court document stating her given name. I am also sad that her given name was not passed down through the generations. Her very being was almost erased from history. Today, I can assure you that the members of the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project are conducting the necessary research to discover Female Gleason's given name. It will be with great joy to speak her full name [00:41:00] when she is cleared for the crimes she did not commit.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunt, a non profit 501c3 organization. Weekly News Update What impact can the United Nations Human Rights Council have? The United Nations Human Rights Council is an intergovernmental body within the United Nations system that strengthens the promotion and protection of human rights around the globe.

Sarah Jack: The work of the United Nations Human Rights Council includes promotion and protection of human rights, addressing violations and setting standards, encouraging compliance, and standards, promoting prevention, and continuing global dialogue. The preamble of the United Nations Charter states, 'We the peoples of the United Nations are determined to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights and the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women, and [00:42:00] of nations large and small.'

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts staunchly stands for the right of human dignity for all. We believe that this right, inerrant to every person, underpins all rights and freedoms. Harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks is a violation against human dignity. End Witch Hunts implores states and individuals to uphold and protect human dignity. We all must work to safeguard individuals from torture, degrading treatment, and discrimination. We are dedicated to these principles and advocate for their universal adoption and implementation.

Sarah Jack: Witch hunts are a harmful reality that persists, and as a part of our podcast community, you play a crucial role in the collective advocacy. Thank you for tuning in, sharing our episodes, continuing the conversation with your sphere of influence, and asking leaders to take action. We must continue to cultivate the societal values of compassion, understanding, and [00:43:00] justice. It is our collective responsibility as a world community to unite against the inhumane treatment of every individual anywhere in the world, including anyone accused of causing witchcraft harm. Spread awareness. Share this information with your friends, family, and on social media. Use your voice to let others know about the urgency of combating witchcraft accusations and persecution. Support advocacy groups. You can learn all about them on our website and in our advocacy podcast episodes. Contact authorities. Raise your voice by reaching out to relevant authorities and leadership. Urge them to take swift and decisive action to ensure justice for victims and accountability for all involved.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts actively supports exoneration and memorial efforts that aim to honor victims and raise witch hunt awareness. Sign our petition at change.org/witchtrials to urge the state of Massachusetts to amend legislation [00:44:00] acknowledging all Salem Witch Trial victims. Bill H 1803, an act to exonerate all individuals accused of witchcraft during the Salem Witch Trials, is currently being reviewed by the Joint Committee on the Judiciary in the Massachusetts General Court. They must choose to pass the bill onto the House by February 7th. Please consider submitting written testimony now as to why you support acknowledging all those who suffered in the Salem Witch Trials. This bill transcends the realm of mere legislation. It holds profound significance in the pursuit of human rights. Beyond the previously exonerated victims of the Salem Witch Trials, this bill sheds light on the vast scale of mass suffering that occurred. It represents a significant step toward rectifying this injustice and delivering more comprehensive justice. This legislation holds the power to provide more long overdue formal acknowledgement to overlooked victims.

Sarah Jack: Join the Massachusetts Witch Trial Justice Project and House [00:45:00] Representative Andres Vargas in advocating for this crucial piece of legislation. Anyone can submit written testimony. Simply write a short letter stating why this bill's important to this address, which will also be in the show notes: Judiciary Committee at 24 Beacon Street, room 1 36, Boston, Massachusetts 0 2 1 3 3 or by email to michael.musto@mahouse.gov. That's M I C H A E L dot M U S T O @ M A H O U S E dot G O V. Let's persist in elevating the voices of both historical and contemporary victims of witch hunts.

Sarah Jack: Our monthly donors are our super listeners. As a super listener, your monthly contributions make a significant impact. Visit aboutwitchhunts.com/ and easily sign up for any donation amount that suits you. Your generosity fuels the content you love.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, [00:46:00] Sarah.

Sarah Jack: You're welcome.

Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: Visit us at aboutwitchhunts.com/.

Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends about the show.

Sarah Jack: Support our effort to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

January 31, 2024

Marion Gibson on Witchcraft a History in 13 Trials

Buy the book Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials by Marion Gibson

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Show Notes

Dr. Marion Gibson, highly esteemed historian returns to talk about her new book, ‘Witchcraft, A History in Thirteen Trials’. The importance of the book in bridging the gap between historical witchcraft trials and the concept of witch hunts existing today is emphasized. Learn how the stories of real victims presented in her book explore aspects of witchcraft from a 700-year period, touching on the evolution from being considered a magical crime to being a societal metaphor. Dr. Gibson also delves into the sexism inherent in witch trials, the impact of demonology on witch hunting, the impact of individual testimonies from witch trials and the enduring potency of witchcraft accusations in today’s society. Marion shares a glimpse of her future work around the Witchfinder General trials during the English Civil War.

Buy the book The Witches of St. Osyth by Marion Gibson

Seven County Witch Hunts Project Blog

United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8. Elimination of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks

Papua New Guinea Sorcery and Witchcraft Accusation-Related Violence National Action Plan

Pan African Parliament Guidelines for Addressing Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks

Marion Gibson Website

The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices

Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

Grassroots organizations working with The International Network

Storymap explaining the dynamics of sorcery accusation related violence

Stop Sorcery Violence

Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores the past, present, and future of witch hunting. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Join us as we explore fascinating tales of witch hunts from the ancient to the modern day, delving into the societal, religious, and psychological factors that fueled them.

Josh Hutchinson: Our podcast features expert interviews, in depth analysis, and compelling storytelling that bring to life the complex narratives surrounding these trials.

Sarah Jack: In this episode, we will be covering both historic and contemporary witch trials.

Josh Hutchinson: That's right. Today, we have the privilege of being joined by scholar Marion Gibson to discuss her captivating new book, Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials.

Sarah Jack: Over the next hour, Gibson will be providing us with a fascinating overview of the evolution of witch hunting and persecution over 700 years, from the [00:01:00] earliest European witch trials in the late 15th century to contemporary cases today.

Josh Hutchinson: By closely examining 13 pivotal witchcraft trials throughout history, Gibson reveals how notions of magic and the stereotypical idea of the witch have been adapted to serve as a convenient enemy and outlet for broader societal fears and prejudices.

Sarah Jack: Gibson will explain how women who were seen as overly outspoken, sexually deviant, or simply unconventional were especially vulnerable to accusations of witchcraft across eras.

Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn how profoundly misogynistic witch hunting manuals helped spread dangerous ideas that enabled the targeting of women.

Sarah Jack: Our discussion will also cover how the myth of the witch disturbingly endures today, with continued cases of witchcraft-related violence globally, as well as powerful figures co-opting the term witch hunt for their own political motives.

Josh Hutchinson: You won't want to miss Gibson's insightful [00:02:00] commentary on the gendered and political dimensions of historic witch hunts and the unsettling parallels that can be drawn with present times. So get ready to journey through 700 years of fascinating witchcraft history.

Sarah Jack: Welcome to Witch Hunt, Marion Gibson, author and historical consultant on witchcraft and magic.

Josh Hutchinson: First of all, I just want to say thank you for writing this wonderful book, Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials. It fills a need that Sarah and I have talked about for something that bridges the gap between the historic witchcraft trials and the witch hunts going on today. So, thank you for doing that.

Marion Gibson: Oh, thank you. That's what I thought needed doing, really. I think you need to, when you've seen the horror of witch trials in the past, and you've read all the history books that you can read about those, it seems to me that it's time to consider how relevant this idea still is today. And one of the things we talked about when we [00:03:00] met last time time was actually, it's very relevant. People keep using the term witch hunts and we know that people are still literally being accused of witchcraft around the world today. So there seemed a need to me to bring the story of the historic witch trial right up to date.

Josh Hutchinson: And the cases you chose are just, they're so good at illustrating, not just individual cases, but the trends and grand themes that connect all of the history and the present together.

Marion Gibson: I'm glad that worked, yeah. Every now and again I find myself still in the process of selecting, if you know what I mean, because I took so long over it and agonized so much over, is this the right one? Is that the right one? Will this really fit? Will this carry the themes through the book? Is this too complicated for the reader because there are some twisty turny moments in the book where the definition of witchcraft shifts? So where it moves, for example, from being a [00:04:00] magical crime to being a crime imagined as one of fraud. And then again, in contemporary times, to being kind of metaphor for a whole bunch of other kinds of things that the society of the time deemed to be unacceptable. So I'm really glad. I'm really glad that I do seem to have pulled that off because it was one of the things that bothered me most writing the book.

Sarah Jack: You have pulled it off and it's going to expand minds and inform and so thank you and great job.

Marion Gibson: Good. Thank you. Oh, that's great. I just come here for validation, basically.

Sarah Jack: Good, good, good.

Josh Hutchinson: You sent the book to the right people.

Sarah Jack: Can you give us a brief overview of what Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials is?

Marion Gibson: Yeah, it is what it says on the tin, but that doesn't quite cover the scope of it, I think. It covers a 700 year period, which again was one of the things that I agonized and worried about writing the book, because [00:05:00] that's a very long period of time. Our first witch trial is in 1485. And our final witch trial is effectively still going on. It's the ongoing legal battle between Donald Trump and Stormy Daniels and the many adversaries who were embroiled in that legal battle. So that is our last witch trial. And it tries to tell the story of the idea of the witch and the ways that the idea of the witch has been put on trial, both in formal courts and more informally in society, over the course of those 700 years, to give people a sense of what witchcraft meant in the past, the era of the witch trials, if you like, but then how the idea of the witch is still current today and the era of the witch trials really hasn't finished. So it tries to bring everything up to date and get people to think about what witch means now, and what a witch trial means now.

Josh Hutchinson: I want to get to what a witch is, but you point out in the introduction, [00:06:00] you first need to understand what magic is. So can you explain how would you define magic?

Marion Gibson: It's even harder than defining witches, isn't it? I think magic is a force which cannot be explained by other factors such as science, rationality, observable, physical, or material changes of that kind. But it's more than that, really. It's what people choose to define as magic. So in some cases, some of the phenomena that people have thought were magical in the past or think to be magical today can actually be explained in other ways. But people choose not to because they want to see those things as being magical. And of course, magic can be a positive or a negative thing. So if you accuse your neighbor of being a witch and doing magic, obviously that's a terribly negative thing. But you might also see magic as a positive thing. And one of the ways the witch turns up in contemporary culture is a kind of positive magician, [00:07:00] somebody who's sparkly and glamorous and exciting and maybe even a role model. Magic accompanies the idea of the witch throughout history, really.

Sarah Jack: And what does that lead the witch to be? What is the witch?

Marion Gibson: The witch is a very movable thing, but often defined as an enemy. So one of the places that the witch fits into society, even over such a long historical period, is that they are a very useful enemy. And if they, if you don't think they exist already, you need to invent them because they fill that gap in society where scapegoats and those who challenge authority, people who are subversive, people who are seen to be problematic, certain racial, religious, cultural others. Those people fit. So The witch is is useful when you want to say, I do believe the world is full of magic. It's full of spirits. It's a highly religious world. And I think that because God has his good people on one [00:08:00] side, therefore, Satan must have his bad people on the other side. And those people must be witches and they must be able to do real magic.

Marion Gibson: So the witch is useful more than anything else, useful throughout history.

Josh Hutchinson: One of the things I love about this book is that you're telling the individual stories of victims of persecution. What is the impact? How does that impact our perception of the events to learn the individual stories?

Marion Gibson: I think it's really important. I think it would be quite easy to write a long history of witchcraft where you said all the things that I say about how it's still relevant, et cetera, and how it's now a metaphor for other things. You could say all of that without the individual stories, butI don't think it would really land with people in the same way. And I don't think it would be nearly as engrossing. I find those personal stories the most engrossing and interesting part of writing a history. And I think if you don't feel [00:09:00] history, we talked about this a little bit with my last book, The Witches of St. Osyth, when I came on to talk about that. If you don't feel history, then you don't learn from history. You don't get the sense that, you know what, persecution is a bad thing. We might want to try to do less of it and work towards a world which is more equitable and just and so on. So it's really an attempt to engage people in the story as much as possible by showing individual people who were victimized as witches or who continue to be, and getting people to think but that could have been me, that could have been me in that position, or my neighbor who I care about, or my partner who I care about. I want people to have that sense of emotional investment, and I want as far as possible to give a voice back to the people who were persecuted in the past, and who perhaps were not at the time able to speak for themselves or certainly can't now.

Marion Gibson: I want people to feel those stories and feel like they're on the side of the persecuted [00:10:00] people, and they want to do something to make their stories better known and hopefully stop those kind of stories recurring again. So it's quite a big aim really, but I think the personal is really important.

Sarah Jack: The stories are so engrossing. I really felt the vulnerability of many of the characters. And Tituba has been on my mind a lot lately and how people view her. And I really felt her vulnerability when reading about her. Why are some of these people vulnerable? Why are they easy marks?

Marion Gibson: A lot of it is to do with gender. So about 75 percent of the people who we know were accused of witchcraft across all the jurisdictions that historians have studied were women. So that's a really important thing that seems to make people vulnerable to the accusation of witchcraft. But in her case, there's also the racial factor to be considered, so she's a Native American woman, and she's [00:11:00] positioned as the enemy of the colonists, the people living around her. So there's that. There's also her position within society, so she's an enslaved person and a servant, somewhere on the continuum between those positions, this very disempowered woman sits, depending on whose jurisdiction she's having to live within and how she's being treated by the community around her. All of those things matter. And she's positioned in that way because she's been translocated from one place to another. So sometimes factors like migration matter. Sometimes it's a forced migration, as in her case. In other cases, it's somebody who's perceived to be out of place in some way. And obviously these are all things that we see in today's society as making people more likely to be persecuted and scapegoated.

Josh Hutchinson: In the book, you talk a lot about demonology. What is that? And how did that shape witch hunting?

Marion Gibson: It's really the theory of witch hunting. And it's not [00:12:00] just a theory. It's a practical manual, if you like, for the finding of witches. So theory and practice, and it's stated, and this is where the first chapter of the book kicks off, really. It's stated that witches were the devil's people and they should be hunted down in society. They were more likely to be women than men, some of the first demonologists asserted.

Marion Gibson: And we start off with Heinrich Kramer, or Kramer, one of the first demonologists, somebody who people might have heard of because he wrote the witch hunting manual, Malleus Maleficarum, The Hammer of Witches, which has become notorious since the 1480s when he wrote it for being not only Yeah, a manual for hatred and for hunting people, but particularly a very misogynistic manual.

Marion Gibson: So demonology didn't really have to go those ways. It didn't have to be as misogynistic as it was, but it seems inevitable in the context of a broadly patriarchal society that it would have gone that way. And people like [00:13:00] Heinrich Kramer make sure that it does. And the first witch trial in the book is his attempt to put into practice his demonology.

Marion Gibson: So he's thinking through these ideas, and he's presumably thinking about writing a manual for witch hunting, but he decides to put this into practice. And one of the trials that I talk about in chapter one is his attempt to do that. He finds a group of women and decides he's going to persecute them.

Marion Gibson: But demonology is really important. It underpins so many of the stories, particularly in part one of the book, which goes from the 1480s to the 1730s, really the period of the witch trials as people tend to think of it. And if it wasn't for demonology, those witch trials wouldn't be possible. So first of all, you need the theory and it's a conspiracy theory. It's about Satan's people in the world and how we must find them out. And here are the ways you identify them. And this is what you need to do to them. If it wasn't for that theory, the witch trials wouldn't have happened in quite the way that they did.

Sarah Jack: What do you attribute to [00:14:00] the level of misogyny that he was directed by writing that book?

Marion Gibson: It's hideous, isn't it? And it's really upsetting to contemplate just how misogynistic he was. It's partly perhaps to do with his position in society. He's a Dominican monk, so he's a celibate individual living in a basically patriarchal, closed, masculine community. But that didn't mean that he had to be misogynistic.Lots of people managed to live in those communities without being as misogynistic as he was. It makes you wonder about factors in his biography, which we don't know about, sadly. We know where he comes from, and we know some of his previous life.

Marion Gibson: He seems to be a deeply unpleasant individual. He was accused throughout his life of all sorts of nastiness, whether that was attacking academic colleagues, embezzlement, and his job was not a particularly attractive one. So he was responsible in part for the selling of indulgences, which is a way that rich people could [00:15:00] basically buy a piece of paper which bought them out of some time in purgatory, burning off their sins, as the theology of the time said that they would.

Marion Gibson: He just seems to have been a really quite unpleasant person, who was haunted by the idea that women were out to get men, and perhaps to get him specifically. But most certainly that he thought that they were ignorant, they were lustful, they were prone to believing the wrong things about God and Satan. They were malevolent and petty and strove to take out their frustrations on other people, primarily men. He identifies them as enemies in a whole variety of ways and it is inexplicable. You can always look at factors in people's life to say, 'that's why they hate that group or that's why they're just so unpleasant to everybody,' but at the end of the day, there is no real clue to why he was who he was. [00:16:00]

Marion Gibson: What is depressing is that a lot of people listened to him and credited what he was saying and thought of him as an expert. Some people questioned it, some people stood up against it, and I think one of the interesting things about that first chapter is that we look at the people who stood up against it, which include the people on trial, the women on trial, and things don't go quite the way that he might have hoped that they would have done, which I think is good because it gives the reader a nice surprise, a starting point for the book, which is not maybe quite what they'd expected.

Marion Gibson: But whilst people challenged him, a lot of people went along with what he said. And of course, that was one of the reasons why the witch trials take off. Sometimes all you need is one quite powerful individual to want to punch down on others. And unfortunately, the human imagination often goes along with that.

Marion Gibson: It was a book that made me think twice about whether I really thought people were at bottom good or bad. And the prevalence of that kind of hatred and the [00:17:00] way that it recurs throughout human history is a really depressing thing. And I think it's something that we really ought to think more about. There are always Heinrich Kramers.

Josh Hutchinson: And to your point that you needed demonology to have witch hunting, you had to have the science of how to do witch hunting, so you needed these books in order to do that. But specifically with the Malleus Maleficarum, if that book had never been written, do you think the European Witch Trials would have played out the same way?

Marion Gibson: That's a really interesting one. Scholars have argued a lot about whether that book is a really key one or not. I think it is. It's very difficult to get a clear sense of how books circulated in this period. We know that they did. And we know they circulated in manuscript and people translated them and passed them around.

Marion Gibson: And if you were a member of an academic community or a monastic community, you might make copies [00:18:00] of books, you might give them to your friends, you might give them as a gift to somebody, you might send them abroad to friends that you'd made through letter writing and things like that. So you can see the kind of network of circulation, but actually tracing the progress of an individual book is quite hard.

Marion Gibson: So scholars have said other demonologies are probably more important, particularly the less misogynistic, less radical ones, if you like. But nevertheless, the progress of the witch hunt suggests to me that all demonologies were important and that a very misogynistic demonology most certainly had a place in the spread of those ideas.

Marion Gibson: Look what the outcome was! Oh look, 75 percent of those who are accused are women. This cannot be really a coincidence. So I do think it was quite an important book and certainly the way it was rediscovered in the 20th century and translated into English for the first time, for example, makes me think that although it's long [00:19:00] pre history of publication and circulation, it's difficult to see the fact that people in the 20th century identified it as a key one and translated it and then talked about it a lot makes me think that actually it probably always was a key text and that we should pay quite a lot of attention to it. It's quite tempting to dismiss it as an outlier, but I'm not really sure that it was.

Josh Hutchinson: It's translated by one of your subjects in here, Montague Summers. Is his translation considered reliable? Is there any other academic translation of it?

Marion Gibson: Yeah, there is. His translation is not considered particularly reliable. He had his own biases and one of the reasons that he turns up in book is that he is fascinated by the idea of witchcraft and Satanism, and to some extent he's quite like Heinrich Kramer. He too is a Roman Catholic clergyman, or at least he presents himself as such. It's not entirely clear [00:20:00] exactly how he was ordained or how he went on that path. He regards himself as somebody who's quite a superior intellect and somebody who might know something about the spiritual world and might have some theories about things like ghosts and vampires and demons and so on.

Marion Gibson: I think he and Heinrich Kramer would have had some things to talk about had they met, but he's also very different, because he's gay and he's quite openly gay, which is a surprising thing for a clergyman and indeed any man in the England of his period. So he's really interesting. He sits on both sides of being, being a scapegoated witch, because he's accused of Satanism during the course of his life. Wow.

Marion Gibson: But on the other hand, being somebody who's very interested in persecuting other people and thus translating Kramer's book. So yeah, it's not a particularly reliable translation because of his own very complicated personal history and his own deep interest in these subjects, which I think [00:21:00] sometimes led him to over read or to propose a controversial interpretation of something Kramer had said.

Marion Gibson: If people want to look at Malleus Maleficarum, the best literal translation, that's one I talk about in the footnotes of the book, and it's by Christopher S. Mackay, and people should look for that one. He's also written a great book on Heinrich Kramer and the witch trial that I talk about in the first chapter. So if you want to know more about that and you feel like you want to read Malleus Maleficarum in a translation that gives you the best possible access to what Heinrich Kramer had to say, then I think it would probably be Mackay's book that I'd point you to.

Josh Hutchinson: Excellent. Yeah, I'm going to pick that up. I know it's going to be an infuriating experience.

Marion Gibson: It really is. Yeah. I get my students to look at it when I teach my module about witchcraft in history and literature, and every year, I go into the first class, it's the first class and I look at their faces and they're just like, what? [00:22:00] What? And sometimes people say to me, 'is this, you know, is this real? Did people really write?' Yeah, yeah, they really wrote this. Yes, they wrote it. They published it. This is what they had to say about the women of their period.

Marion Gibson: And their jaws really drop, especially students who quite often think, oh, well, you know, we've progressed such a long way since this time, I'm not really sure that we still need to be banging on about feminism and talking about the position of women in society. It is always quite satisfying to see those students think,' oh, wait, hang on a minute. No, people can say these kinds of things. And this kind of thing is still said in contemporary society from time to time. And shouldn't we talk about this in our classes?' So I always enjoy presenting it to people. And it will probably be quite a disturbing experience. Yeah. And it sort of should be, but no, I'm not recommending, I'm not recommending you get a mug of cocoa and sit down with your bedtime reading, because you won't enjoy it.[00:23:00]

Sarah Jack: Reading her trial and then thinking about him going on to write that, it really struck me. She couldn't pick up a pen and write her story and push it out into the world. And so here we are in 2023 fighting that story. The power of your pen, your writing is powerful. And it's going to be combating this mentality. So I feel excited about the era we are in, because women can write and express now, but then their words, what they were able to say, the limited power they had, and they got in trouble for it.

Marion Gibson: It's a powerful thing that, isn't it? Yeah. And again, it's quite deeply felt because particularly if you are a woman, you think about how you might have fared in that society. So Heinrich Kraemer, the [00:24:00] woman who is at the center of this Witch Trial in 1485 is a woman called Helena Scheuberin, and she's quite a wealthy woman probably, in a number of ways. She's a merchant's wife. She's had some education. She has some ideas about religion of her own, which is one of the reasons why she's able to stand up and fight back a bit against her persecutors, and she and her husband have access to sufficient money to, spoiler alert, hire a lawyer during the course of her trial.

Marion Gibson: So she's a really important prefigure, it seems to me, of the position of women in contemporary society. And I did find it powerful. And I did find myself thinking, 'you have to write this. You have to write this as a woman. You have to answer back. It may be too late for many of these people, but at least I can say something from my perspective and the perspective of other women. This wasn't right. You shouldn't have done this. This is what I think of you.' And I found that quite powerful. Looking back at my own female ancestors, I've been [00:25:00] going through some of the family records recently for other reasons. My great grandmother couldn't write. She couldn't write her own name. And that's incredibly recent. That's really very recent. And it makes you think about how important it is that women do have that voice and how important it is that we should try and use it to make sure that this kind of institutional misogyny that we see in the world around us doesn't continue to flourish.

Marion Gibson: So yeah, it felt like a powerful thing. It felt like an important book to write and it felt like I had to write it. It was important to try to set the record straight, even though, in many cases, it's many centuries too late. At least something was done, I guess.

Josh Hutchinson: It's definitely important to highlight that these were and still are male-dominated societies and who are they targeting with their witch trials, not usually men.

Marion Gibson: Not usually, [00:26:00] no. And when you look towards the end of the book, you see,in the African communities that I talk about, in the North American communities that I talk about at the end of the book, very often those who are accused are womenAnd they're persecuted, at least in part, for being women under the heading of being witches. So I think this is an argument that we absolutely still have not won. And we still do need feminism. We still do need women writers and male writers who are willing to tell those stories to keep telling them and to keep telling the story of the witch trial as a story of persecution of women specifically, as well as some men as well.

Josh Hutchinson: One thing I like to point out to people is that, in New England, at least 78 percent or so of the accused were women. And that you look at that and see, 22%, that's still a reasonable representation. There's [00:27:00] some men. Half of them were directly connected to a female suspect and they were accused after she was. It's even more misogynistic than when you first look at the 78%, I think.

Marion Gibson: Yes, I think so. That's very nicely put that the men who are drawn into the witch trials are very often drawn in because they're the husband or the son or an acquaintance in some way of a woman who is the primary accused. So yes, they are drawn in. Yes, it's a terrible fate for them, too. But one of the reasons that they are accused is because they're seen to be an associate and affiliates, somebody perhaps who is defending a woman who's been accused first.

Marion Gibson: I do think that is a really important point.

Josh Hutchinson: And then I was just thinking in there, A lot of the representations, the males, even though they're much more rare as suspects, they're given authority over the female witches.

Marion Gibson: Yes, they often [00:28:00] are, which is fascinating to see, isn't it? So even in the course of the accusations, you find that the essentially patriarchal assumptions of those who are doing the persecuting are replicated. It is quite fascinating, isn't it? Once you start to unpick and you look at the kind of qualitative experience behind the quantitative statistics, you find that it is even worse than it looks when you simply look at a table of figures. Absolutely.

Marion Gibson: That's why the individual stories are so important, I think, because you want to think about the experience of those people and why they were put in the positions that they were, and the stories that were told about them, and the stories that they managed to tell about themselves. So that it's not just the kind of hard data, if you like, of history that we're talking about. It's the lived experience of history, which often determines the outcome of events as we know.

Josh Hutchinson: We've talked about a little about why women are accused, but specifically you talk about how[00:29:00] women witches are seen as being unwomanly.

Marion Gibson: Yes, often they are. So women of all ages and classes get accused during the course of the book. So we have very poor women, who barely have enough to support themselves and their families. And we have relatively wealthy women, people like Helena, who we were talking about just now,and we even have noble women. So chapter two is about a Scottish witch trial. One of those who is accused and unfortunately ultimately condemned to death is a noble woman. So we've got all kinds of women, but one of the things that holds all those women's stories together is that they are thought of as insufficiently submissive or insufficiently modest or overly lustful or overly mouthy and difficult, women who fall out with people in their communities, women who are bad mothers or are thought to [00:30:00] be attacking other people's children and just are generally women who are, as you say, sufficiently unwomanly to have attracted the attention of their community. And that does come about in a whole variety of different ways. Maybe they are accused of having an affair with somebody else's husband, or maybe they have an illegitimate child, or maybe they've fallen out with a neighbor in a dispute over, it can be anything really, anything from child rearing to business practices. Maybe they're also notable in other ways.

Marion Gibson: So some of the women, there's a woman in one of the chapters about the English Civil War, who is a disabled woman, a woman who actually only has one leg. So maybe in her case, there's not only concern about her illegitimate child, she has a young daughter outside of marriage, but maybe also they're thinking about her appearance and the way that it's not a traditionally beautiful, attractive womanly appearance that is desirable to men. And therefore they [00:31:00] single her out for those reasons, as well.

Marion Gibson: So there's a whole variety of different ways that women can be thought by others to be unwomanly. And when you look at that again, you just see the unfairness of that stereotyping and the confinements of the image of the woman within these incredibly narrow boundaries to which they must conform or else they're going to find themselves in trouble.

Marion Gibson: And of course they could get into trouble in all sorts of different ways in the societies in which they live. But being accused of witchcraft seems to be quite a powerful tool alongside all the other accusations that might be made against them.

Sarah Jack: Women in leadership roles are labeled as witches by men.

Marion Gibson: Yes, they are. Yes, they are. Yeah. So again, that sort of sense that if you stick your head above the parapet, somebody's going to come along and want to knock it off then. That applies very much across the course of many of these stories. But again, we've got women who are incredibly [00:32:00] disempowered and women who are seen as leaders or who are seen as notable in their society in some way. So all of those kinds of people get accused. And because women are more likely to be leaders in modern society, really that idea has strengthened over time that a woman leader is fair game, can be accused of witchcraft. You know, that can be something as, it's as simple as drawing a cartoon of her or making a crass comment on social media, or it can be people literally believing that woman is a witch and deciding to attack her for those reasons.

Marion Gibson: Again, it's the idea that a woman is a witch is a very malleable kind of idea. You can twist it around any way you want to and make it apply to almost any woman. But if a woman stands out in society in some way, so much so that people consider her to be unwomanly, according to the definitions of their stereotype, then that does make her more likely to be accused.

Sarah Jack: Yeah. She's out of place [00:33:00] and it's because she's evil.

Marion Gibson: Yes, see, that must be it, mustn't it? There we go. There, that's all sorted now. Yeah, that's why women become eminent in their societies, isn't it? Because they're evil, obviously. And yes, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah, we find it laughable, but at the same time, we can see how all around us, that is unfortunately a really serious thing that many people think.

Marion Gibson: And really, I would so much rather that the book contributed to people questioning that. Every time a reader picks up a book, I do want them to think, 'hang on a minute, this actually is still the case, isn't it? I need to notice those instances a little bit more. I need to push back a little bit more against those and think a bit more about why that's that.'

Marion Gibson: Essentially fairly humorous thing might still be possible to be said. Why can we still make that joke? Why can we still make jokes about witches, which we should do because the idea of the witch is inherently laughable, but why can we still do it? And that's, [00:34:00] we can still do it because it still works in society. It still works in culture. We still know people do sometimes think these things.

Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and now we see that powerful women get labeled as witches, powerful men take on the label of witch in that they're the victims of the witch hunt.

Marion Gibson: They do. This was a real gift, I have to say. But it was also one of the things that prompted me to shape the book the way I did. If you'd said to me in the early years of the 21st century, or the 1990s, when I first got interested in witches, if you said to me, people will be claiming in the society around you that they are the victims of a witch hunt, and they won't be the people that you expect. They will be powerful men in charge of the societies that they essentially run. I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought that's nonsense, isn't it? Of course, they're not going to be doing that, but the fact that they are, this is something that's happened in Britain with Boris Johnson [00:35:00] claiming to be the victim of a witch hunt, just the same as with Donald Trump in the United States.

Marion Gibson: So this travels across cultures, it's not a uniquely American thing. We see this happening quite regularly now, and it was an absolute gift for structuring the book because it gave me the opportunity to demonstrate very, very clearly just how relevant the idea of the witch is, and to talk about that curious reversal whereby it's the wealthy, white male, powerful individuals who are doing the claiming to be the victims of a witch hunt, whereas in fact it's the people who stand against them who are much more likely to fit the traditional stereotype of the witch.

Sarah Jack: You talked about the malleability of the witch. How do we recognize and interrupt a witch hunt in progress?

Marion Gibson: I think I end the book with this, and I've put a checklist, really, at the end of the book so that people can think about this. I think if you are being [00:36:00] asked to persecute and scapegoat somebody and identify them as an enemy of society, and they are female, maybe of a different race to the majority of people in a particular society, maybe they're poorer than the majority of people in a particular society, maybe they stand out in some way and are regarded as being inherently subversive in some way, maybe they're disabled or set apart by their physicality in some way. You might want to consider whether what you're being asked to participate in is in fact a witch hunt.

Josh Hutchinson: So I think if you can look for some of those signs, they might be signs that actually that old human stereotype is reasserting itself.And you're involved with The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. What's important about being involved in that?

Marion Gibson: I think it's really important for historians to try and find ways that their work is relevant [00:37:00] today. That's the first thing and secondly, that network is important in trying to stop witchcraft accusations happening today. And there are of course other harmful practices that are involved as well. So for example, people being murdered in order to be used, their body parts, for example, to be used in magical processes. So really the network is about putting together not just a group of experts on witch trials, but also a group of experts on that earlier thing we talked about, magic and human belief in magic, which, there is nothing wrong with at all, but when it leads to harming other people to the extent of killing them even, then clearly that's something that we need to be challenging. So yeah, I'd recommend people have a look at the, the network and some of the people involved in it. People like Leo Igwe, for example, who is an activist against witchcraft persecution and the harmful practices associated with it and has personal experience of being scapegoated [00:38:00] in this way and trying to help people who have today been accused literally of witchcraft, of bewitching their neighbors and worshipping the devil and so on. So if people feel like they want to know more about the notion of witchcraft in contemporary society, want to try and do something about it, then I'd recommend looking at the Network and some of the people involved in it to find out more about that.

Sarah Jack: And you mentioned that Leo and others that are doing work like him are sometimes persecuted. They're misunderstood as being supporters of witchcraft, even. How does fear cloud perspectives on efforts to educate about witch hunting?

Marion Gibson: It's very easy, isn't it, to turn the word witch against somebody, which is one of the points of the book, really. Like I say, it can be used against more or less anybody. Of course, standing up for somebody who is accused of witchcraft can lead to you being accused of witchcraft too. And that's certainly something that we see in the [00:39:00] past, and it's something we see today with people like Leo.

Marion Gibson: And there are other examples that I talk about in the book, too. For example, two female professors who organized a conference at one of the campuses of the University of Nigeria were themselves accused of witchcraft, not ultimately to the extent of being tried, which is great. But they were still accused of witchcraft. And the academic conference about witchcraft persecution was represented by some of the religious spokespeople in the area as being a meeting of witches, a kind of witch's Sabbath, which made things very difficult for them. So that kind of misunderstanding and the harassment that arises from it is one of the things that the network is really keen to combat.

Josh Hutchinson: And we've also seen, in addition, you had that conference in Nigeria that was affected by this belief. We've seen in America, school classes, college courses be cancelled because they [00:40:00] had to do with witch trial history but were represented as teaching occult practices. And I've seen articles about there's a new course being offered by one of the universities in the UK, and they're coming under a little bit of fire, it seems like, for teaching witchcraft and occultism.

Marion Gibson: They are. That would be the university that I actually work at. Yes. The University of Exeter. That's absolutely right. and one of my colleagues has brought together this fascinating master of arts in Magic and Occult Science, I think something like that. And it's pretty obvious really, as soon as you look at the course description, this is about history. This is about the history of magic and she's also based within the Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies. So it's specifically about Eastern Occultism and the way that many of the kind of discussions of magic and the [00:41:00] occult in early Eastern societies led to the sort of Western esotericism that people see now and some people practice, but other people just find a fascinating cultural phenomenon. So yeah, absolutely. There's been quite a lot of pushback about the advertisements for this course in some quarters, as if it were an attempt to, to teach people how to do magic and witchcraft, which of course, as academics, it is not our business to do.

Marion Gibson: So yeah, absolutely. These are still very live terms, aren't they? And we do see all the time challenges to particular books in libraries or challenges to courses which examine the history of witchcraft and magic, because people don't always understand that this is, it's just about history.

Marion Gibson: So it's, exactly the same as examining, I don't know, the history of the industrial revolution or the history of 17th century Puritanism or whatever, you can look at anything through the historical lens and find something valuable in it, but people don't always see that.

Sarah Jack: Yeah, it [00:42:00] really speaks to how powerful and dangerous witchcraft is perceived by some who fear it, that even a look at the history is dangerous.

Marion Gibson: Yes. It's almost as if it's going to contaminate you, isn't it? The very word witch or the idea of witchcraft or magic is going to harm you just by your association with it, or by having noticed it. That's a theme that comes up over and over again in the book, actually, the idea that, that witchcraft spreads like a virus the second you engage with it. It will draw you in and either you yourself will become a witch, which is a terrible thing, or you will be the victim of witchcraft, which is also a terrible thing. So there is this sense that it is, it's like a bacteria or a virus or a germ or something like that. And once set loose in society, it can't be put back into the box, if you like.

Sarah Jack: Well, this [00:43:00] is out of the box now too, and it's going to spread. I'm really excited.

Marion Gibson: I'm glad you've enjoyed it so much. I loved writing the book. It was very hard because, hey, it's a 700 year history of some really complicated stuff. And I found it really, really difficult. But I also thought that it was something that needed doing. We need this big history of the idea of witchcraft, because it's something that just hasn't gone away, and to that extent, I suppose it's more relevant in some ways than some of the other histories I've talked about. They too have this long legacy, but we've seen the vitality of the idea of witchcraft. And it's something that surprised me that it's come back into culture with such force and that so many people are interested in it from so many different perspectives.

Marion Gibson: And people are still using the word witch as a weapon, by the self assertion or attack on other people. So I think when you've got something that appears to be part of history, that's just medieval superstition [00:44:00] unites the past, don't worry about that, but you realize that it's actually still very powerful within your society, then that's something that particularly needs the attention of historians, it seems to me. So that's what the book tries to do, show people where it's still relevant and get people to pay attention to it where they see it arise.

Josh Hutchinson: It reminds me of something Wolfgang Berenger said in a documentary video released this summer, Why Witch Hunts Are Not Just a Dark Chapter of the Past. He said, 'there have never been so many witch hunts as there are today.' And people just don't realize that, so I thank you for raising the awareness of that.

Marion Gibson: Yeah, I think that's very true, what he says, particularly if you look at places like Southern Africa, if you look at Indonesia, if you look at Papua New Guinea, some of the places where witch hunting has become most endemic, you can see that actually witch [00:45:00] hunting is more popular than it's ever been. And that's partly because of the spread of different kinds of media.

Marion Gibson: We talked about demonology spreading through textbooks in the middle ages right through to the sort of 18th century or so, but of course now today it's the internet, it's social media, it's podcasts, it's videos, it's in some ways ancient technologies now like video cassettes and audio cassettes and CDs and people think of witchcraft also spreading through cell phones, through private conversations as if it could run through the air and infect people.

Marion Gibson: So all the new technologies, which some people would have thought would have put an end to the idea of witchcraft belief, have in fact just been incorporated into it. And so witchcraft belief and witchcraft trials spread now through new media, just as once they spread through the printed word when that was a new media phenomenon.

Marion Gibson: So yeah, it's, there are more witch trials than there have ever been. He's absolutely right about [00:46:00] that.

Sarah Jack: And that demonology theory is just right there, propelling the fear through modern technologies.

Marion Gibson: Yes, it is. It hasn't really changed that much. It's one of the great human ideas, in this case, a very bad one, that really hasn't changed that much over time. And it's still just as powerful, even though we might've tried to tell ourselves that it really wasn't, and that this was part of history and part of the past, and we'd moved on now, surely, hadn't we, but we hadn't and we need to think about why that is.

Josh Hutchinson: How do things change?

Marion Gibson: How do things change? How do things get better? That's a really difficult question. And I thought about it throughout the course of the book and I, maybe it's just because I'm old and tired, I don't know, but it struck me that they wouldn't. And that seems to me to be a horrifying insight, really, I've always lived as quite a positive person and thought, ah, things are getting better, but I think one of the things we've seen in the [00:47:00] past 10 years, say, is things slipping backwards?

Marion Gibson: So maybe over time things will get better. Maybe we will move on from witchcraft belief. Maybe society will become more just and equal and all the things that we want it to be. But I'm beginning to think that we have to push harder to make that happen because I think we had got quite complacent, or I had anyway, and thought that naturally things were getting better, right? There would be progress. Everything wasn't perfect, everything could get better, but we were broadly moving in the right direction in society. And then a whole slew of things happened that made me think, actually, this wasn't the case. So I'm not sure that it will get better, but I think we have to try.

Marion Gibson: And it takes every person's effort and everybody can do something. Yes, I think so. I think the fact that the stories I tell are individual ones shows [00:48:00] that because sometimes a witch trial can turn on the intervention of a single individual, perhaps somebody you wouldn't even expect. And that can make a huge difference for good or ill. So if we can, yeah, if we can try to be that person, if we can try to be one of those people, then perhaps there is some hope that things will get better and that people will stop being persecuted as witches, both in reality and in metaphor. It would be so nice if we could move on, wouldn't it? I, as much as anybody else, I value the idea of the witch in popular culture and I enjoy consuming fictions about witches, but if only it could be confined to the fictional realm, wouldn't that be a marvelous thing?

Sarah Jack: Absolutely.

Josh Hutchinson: Witchcraft: a History in Thirteen Trials, when is it out in the States and how can people get it?

Marion Gibson: It will be out mid January, so it's out in the UK at the moment, but there will be a lovely American edition with a fabulous cover with a little fiery red cat on it, which I hope people very much enjoy [00:49:00] when they see it. And it's coming out with Scribner, so it should be available in all good bookshops, as they say.

Sarah Jack: What is next for you?

Marion Gibson: Oh, I do know already, which is good. And guess what? It's about witches. I'm going to write a book about the Witchfinder General trials of the English Civil War, which you've probably talked about. Matthew Hopkins, John Stearne, a group of, a merry band of witch hunters, unfortunately, once again, persecuting people from about 1645 to 1647, mostly in eastern England, but a trial that, although it's confined to quite a small locality, is as big as the Salem trial and involves 200 to 300 suspects, possibly as many as 200 people executed, which is absolutely astonishing.

Marion Gibson: I don't think we talk about it enough. People will probably know some of those names. They might know the name Witchfinder General. But for the first time, because of digitization of records, we're able to [00:50:00] explore the whole series of the trials. And they move across seven counties. They are across two years and increasingly records are turning up, which casts new light on some of the people involved.

Marion Gibson: So what I'm going to try and do is tell the stories of some of those individuals, just as I've done in this book, and try to give them back their histories, their voices, and also just talk about, really talk about the national context, and to some extent, the international context, the way that trials like the Witchfinder General trials influence trials in North America, so Salem in particular.

Marion Gibson: But also the way it makes us reflect on, what we think Englishness is, what we think Britishness is, what we think those kinds of identities that subsequently traveled all around the world were. Because it's so easy, I think, for us to present ourselves as this wonderful, enlightened people who value fairness and justice and all the rest of it. But again, recent events have suggested actually we might have a slightly darker history, and it might be quite [00:51:00] important to talk about that. So it will be a book about the biggest English witch hunts and its repercussions all around the world. And that's the Witchfinder General Trials of the 1640s.

Sarah Jack: Fantastic.

Josh Hutchinson: You do give people a taste of that in Witchcraft: A History in Thirteen Trials. once you, everybody out there, once you've read Witchcraft: a History in Thirteen Trials, I know you'll just be salivating waiting for the next book to come out.

Marion Gibson: I can't wait to write it. Yeah. There's one of the chapters deals with parthenogenesis of that hunt and a particular individual who's accused. So yeah, if I can do for many of the other suspects what I've done for her, I should be very happy. Again, it's a very big project and it will take a little while, but I cannot wait to do this. I've already started on the research. In fact, I'm off to Essex, our Essex County here in England, next week to do some more work on it.

Sarah Jack: Wonderful.[00:52:00]

Josh Hutchinson: I want to recommend that everybody follow the project. You're on X as the Seven Counties Witch Project, right? Witch Trial Project.

Marion Gibson: That's right. Yeah. It's @witches7hunt, I think our address is.

Josh Hutchinson: And we'll have that link for everybody in the show description.

Marion Gibson: Please follow along. We do a regular blog, which explores our adventures in different archives.

Sarah Jack: And now, for a minute with Mary.

Mary-Louise Bingham: How do we know what we know? Historian Margo Burns has challenged her audiences many times with that question as part of her public presentations regarding the colonial New England witch trials. As I prepared to tell the story of the evening of the second arrest of Mary Esty for a past episode on this podcast, I contacted Margo. We spent two hours trying to figure out the route George Herrick rode the night of May 20th, [00:53:00] 1692, to apprehend Mary and bring her to Salem for her second examination. We pulled all the information from the best primary source, Records of the Salem Witch Hunt, of which Margo was the project manager with a top notch team who compiled and translated these documents over a 12 year period.

Mary-Louise Bingham: I would like to thank Margo for her time and expertise, and for challenging us lay historians to look to the primary sources so that our ancestor stories will be told with authority. Thank you.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)3, Weekly News Update. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to the global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate on and create projects that build awareness, [00:54:00] education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects.

Sarah Jack: Martin Luther King Jr. said, "whenever you are engaged in work that serves humanity and is for the building of humanity, it has dignity and it has worth."

Sarah Jack: Our mission is to actively enlighten the public on historical and contemporary dimensions of all witch trials. Today the issue of witch hunts represents a significant human rights crisis recognized by the United Nations Human Rights Council. This global concern calls upon nations and leaders to intensify their efforts in addressing harmful practices associated with witchcraft accusations. The United States can intensify their efforts, too. There are still witch trial victims here that need a formal apology and exoneration. [00:55:00]

Sarah Jack: Massachusetts Bill H 1803, an Act to Exonerate All Individuals Accused of Witchcraft During the Salem Witch Trials, is currently being reviewed by the Joint Committee on Judiciary in the Massachusetts General Court. They must choose to pass the bill onto the House by February 7th. Please consider submitting written testimony now as to why you support acknowledging all those who suffered in the Salem Witch Trials. This bill transcends the realm of mere legislation. It holds profound significance in the pursuit of human rights. Beyond the previously exonerated victims of the Salem Witch Trials, this bill sheds light on the vast scale of mass suffering that occurred. It represents a significant step towards rectifying this injustice and delivering more comprehensive justice. This legislation holds the power to provide more long-overdue formal acknowledgment to overlooked victims. It symbolizes a collective commitment to dismantling the historical and contemporary shackles of injustice and to find the way to a just and [00:56:00] humane world for all.

Sarah Jack: Join the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project and House Representative Andres Vargas in advocating for this crucial piece of legislation. Anyone can submit written testimony. Simply write a short letter stating why this bill is important. You can send it to this address, which will also be in the show notes.

Sarah Jack: Send to judiciary committee at 24 Beacon Street, room 136, Boston, Massachusetts 0 2 1 3 3 or by email to michael.musto@mahouse.gov. That's m i c h a e l dot m u s t o at m a h o u s e dot g o v.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Jack: You're welcome.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.

Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Sarah Jack: Visit us at aboutwitchhunts.com/.

Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends and family about the show.[00:57:00]

Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

January 17, 2024

The Astrologer and the Witch Trial with Danny Buck

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Show Notes

Join us this week as Dr. Danny Buck explores astrology and the witchcraft trial of Mark Prynne, a tenant farmer accused of witchcraft in the 17th century by Great Yarmouth town clerk Miles Corbett. The discussion considers the perception of astrology during the golden age of astrology and how it influenced the outcomes of witchcraft accusations in Great Yarmouth during the English Civil War. Learn about the intriguing behaviors of local figures like Miles Corbett, John Taylor and Matthew Brooks during the Great Yarmouth witch trials of 1645 and 1646 and other notable historical men like astrologer William Lilly and infamous Witch Finder Matthew Hopkins. The episode addresses the peak and decline of the fear of witchcraft beliefs, reflecting a notable shift in societal attitudes at the end of the trial.

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Transcript

Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores historic witchcraft trials and modern witch hunts in search of an end to witch hunting in all forms. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.

Josh Hutchinson: We're descendants of people accused of witchcraft.

Sarah Jack: And we're here to tell stories of people like them.

Josh Hutchinson: We cover the past, present, and future of witch hunting.

Sarah Jack: Witch hunting dates back thousands of years.

Josh Hutchinson: The practice occurred all across the ancient world.

Sarah Jack: And continued through the classical era and the medieval period.

Josh Hutchinson: In Europe, witch trials ramped up in the early modern period and resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands.

Sarah Jack: But witch hunts also have occurred in other parts of the world, and they've [00:01:00] never stopped anywhere.

Josh Hutchinson: Witch hunts, now mostly unsanctioned, occur in all corners of the globe today, killing thousands per year.

Sarah Jack: As historian Wolfgang Behringer has stated, 'there have never been so many witch hunts as we see in today's world.'

Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is Danny Buck, who introduces us to the witch trials of astrologer Mark Prynne of Great Yarmouth, England.

Sarah Jack: Along the way, we'll meet an interesting cast of characters and learn about astrology's role in 17th century England.

Josh Hutchinson: Danny tells us about the golden age of astrology and the great astrologers of England in the 17th century.

Sarah Jack: He shares the different perspectives on astrology, including the impact of Puritan beliefs on the perception of astrology.

Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn what astrological products exist and what their uses are.

Sarah Jack: Today, we focus on the intriguing figure of Mark Prynne, who was an amateur astrologer who was [00:02:00] involved in locating lost goods and helping his neighbors determine the future.

Josh Hutchinson: We'll also learn about the antagonist to Mark Prynne, a MP named Miles Corbett. We'll learn about his leading role in the witch hunts and the accusations specifically against Mark Prynne. We'll also learn how he was satirized by poet John Taylor, who wrote a book called A Brief Relation of the Idiotisms and Absurdities of Miles Corbett, Esquire, Counselor at Law, Recorder, and Burgess for Great Yarmouth.

Sarah Jack: This is the podcast's second visit to the witch hunt of 1645 in Great Yarmouth. Dr. Buck is going to give us an overview of the witch hunt where Mark Prynne faced allegations of practicing sorcery and using witchcraft. We will also hear about a second round of accusations in the spring of 1646.

Josh Hutchinson: And we'll conclude [00:03:00] by learning the aftermath of the witch hunt, including the fates of both Mark Prynne and Miles Corbett.

Sarah Jack: Welcome, the first guest of Witch Hunt, returning favorite, Dr. Danny Buck, a Norfolk research historian specializing in the connection between witch hunting, politics, and religious division. In his previous appearance, he kicked off Episode 6 with a discussion on witch hunting during the English Civil War in Great Yarmouth, the place where William and Joanna Towne began their family relocating to the New World and settling in Salem Village. Make sure to revisit that fantastic episode. In this discussion, Dr. Buck delves further into the religious and political conflicts that shape the Great Yarmouth witch trial of amateur astrologer Mark Prynne.

Josh Hutchinson: How was astrology perceived in early modern Great Yarmouth? And why was it important?

Danny Buck: There's the three elements which I find very interesting about how astrology was perceived. At one level, it's something that seems very [00:04:00] useful to ordinary people. We've got records going back as far as the 16th century of a man called William Wicherly, who admitted he did conjure in a great circle with a sword and ring consecrated, and Thomas Owldring of Yarmouth, who was a conjurer and had good books of conjuring, who people were going to visit.

Danny Buck: They were seeking to understand the future. And also search for lost property. For others it was actually a way of looking for their, using predictions, to look at their medical health. So find a diagnosis and seek medical treatment. As we're going to look at, for some people this element of astrology cutting into conjuring, the act of charms and raising spirits for advice is cutting into witchcraft, that you're not just looking to do a predictable science, understanding God's plan for the universe with the stars, but in fact actually asking the dead for [00:05:00] advice, or even devils. Finally, there were some people rather cynical about this, even by the middle of the 17th century. People who were thinking that astrology is nothing but a con trick, a way for illiterate peasants or gullible guests to seek lost things from someone who could tell them what they wanted to hear, probably closer to our idea of cold reading,someone who can speak the names of the constellations enough to seem educated or have some secret knowledge over the rest of them.

Sarah Jack: What was the golden age of astrology?

Danny Buck: This is a difficult question. Obviously, astrology has been something that we can go all the way back to ancient Mesopotamia, if not earlier. People have always looked to the stars and tried to seek meaning in them. We think of things like Halley's Comet being seen just before the Battle of Hastings as an ill omen for the Saxons. But the 17th century introduced a couple of elements that made astrology more accurate, or at least to [00:06:00] those who believed in it. Accurate clocks meant that birth dates would not be a vague day, but be put down right to the hour. Increasingly accurate telescopes and astronomical, as opposed to astrological, equipment was being invented that meant that stars could be understood in ever greater clarity and purpose.

Danny Buck: Think it was Bernard Capp who said that the last of the astrologers were the first of the astronomers. I think a very famous astrologer for the court in Poland, Copernicus, started off as the court astrologer. This meant that you could ask for a birth chart from an astrologer and you could put it down to the minute and therefore get what would seem to be an increasingly accurate diagnosis.

Danny Buck: But also, because of the printing press, astrology became ever more accessible to the ordinary person. The astrologer I want to talk about today, Mark Prynne, started his career with basically like a dummy's first guide [00:07:00] of how to look at the stars. Something, a brief of Moulsons Almanac. So again, as opposed to the full book, it's a brief, so it's been shortened and made more accessible for the ordinary reader, as opposed to the larger original, I think it's originally a 15th century French almanac.

Josh Hutchinson: What other products did astrologers create?

Danny Buck: The most obvious one is the element of prediction, which is by casting a chart. This isn't a particularly visual medium, but you can often see them survive in this period, often with a square with a circle inside, or some pattern of that, which is then used to reflect the houses of the stars and their positions and how that therefore interacts with the balance of the humours and health, as well as a person's personality. Again, today art forms tend to be a bit more circular, but they still are used by people. You also have the almanac itself. So the almanac is an interesting [00:08:00] product. Obviously, we still produce almanacs for people. Some of them are not astrological, just to tell us what's happened in a year.Cricketing almanacs, etc. But for the 17th century almanacs, these are being produced annually, often being used to record dates which are important for people to know and how far we are from the creation of the world or the birth of Christ, etc. But they're also used to look at conjunctions. What are the weird

Danny Buck: astronomical phenomena that are going to occur?

Danny Buck: And actually these take on quite a political element. I was just catching up today in preparation for this, and there's a wonderful piece by Imogen Peck called 'A Chronology of Some Memorable Accidents, the Representation of the Recent Past in English Almanacs,' which looks at how in the aftermath of the Civil War,people were still looking and looking at the past through almanacs in a way that reflected their own political biases.

Danny Buck: However, this was a lot more [00:09:00] complex during the Civil War itself, when there were a variety of rival almanacs. In particular, William Lilly is famous because he produced an almanac that showed how the stars were showing that Parliament's victory was imminent, but he did have a Royalist rival producing his own, believing evidence of Royalist victory, which unsurprisingly he fell into obscurity while Lilly, with a somewhat more accurate prognosis, continued to thrive.

Danny Buck: These, weren't, particularly expensive objects. They're almost mass produced, what we refer to often as ephemera. So relatively cheap paper, but were being produced through the stationers companies. They'd often rely on family names, families of astrologers, so in particular in Great Yarmouth we haveGeoffrey La Neve, starting in 1604. On his death in 1613, his nephew Jeffrey, with a J, continued the almanacs until he was dismissed for being a bit dodgy in the local corporation. And his cousin John Neve took over, continuing the almanac from [00:10:00] 1626 until 61. So these reliable names meant that people could trust them. And again, it's something that continues until at least the 18th century. I think Franklin got, Benjamin Franklin of the American Revolutionary fame got his start faking an almanac, claiming the original author had died and he was replacing him in his usual, slightly trollish way. And then on top of this we get some bigger publications. So we've mentioned, Lilly's Christian Astrology, but also these different guides how to, and evolvement.

Danny Buck: It's quite interesting because again, some of these do bring up witchcraft and the ways that astrology can be used against them. Finally, we've got that medical product that this ability to accurately understand people's maladies was quite important. In particular, I find it quite interesting a reference in the Great Yarmouth corporation book to Mark Prynne helping a distracted man in the town's bridewell. So this is the poor relief, the precursor to the workhouse. And again, [00:11:00] distracted, it's a very vague term, but suggests some kind of mental illness. That somehow this astrological conjunction, and again, it fits into our sort of later idea of things like lunacy and that connection between the stars and mental health that still remains current into the 19th century.

Danny Buck: Finally, there's this element of what they could do for you. Well, they can find the things you've lost. So in particular, we know that Mark Prynne found a variety of objects, and it's been satirised by poets afterwards that he could find anything from a calf to a windmill or a millstone, but certainly there's evidence of finding things like a particular, a man called John Sparke, a sailor nearby who had a lost hat, a cushion, and I think a gold ring, so these are an interesting variety of small items that could be easily lost. Again we don't know how much this is cold reading, that he somehow being able to talk to them, is able to deduce what's going on. Or, again, if he's being consulted, he's not necessarily successful.

Josh Hutchinson: It's interesting, you mentioned William [00:12:00] Lilly, and I just want to point out that one of his books showed up in Connecticut in a witch trial of Katherine Harrison and was used as evidence against her.

Danny Buck: That is fascinating. I find that astrologers are still, they are the more acceptable side of magic. At least, your official names, your Lillies,and they've got a high status. They're protected by, they've got connections. William Lilley, he claimed that he'd spoken to King Charles and advised him to not try and escape Carisbuck Castle. it's easy to say after the event, but he also advised parliamentarian generals. And again, there doesn't need to be anything therefore incompatible for some people with astrology.

Danny Buck: But there was also a fear. William Lilly, as well, mentioned there was fear he was accused of being a juggling wizard and imposter. There's a fear about them being compared to necromancers, so being able to somehow predict [00:13:00] using the dead. And again, there's an earlier generation there responding to men like John Dee and John Lamb, who were certainly in this box of people who are engaging in dark magic and dark practice that was unacceptable. Judith Bonzol, in her guide to William Lilly's life, mentioned that he is someone who is afraid of this line, and in particular he offers anti-witchcraft medical treatments, which actually is quite interesting because it's very much linked to the kind of witch bottles, which obviously we've looked at before, where he mentions the need to boil the patient's urine together with pins, nail parings, and the hair of the victim as a remedy against witchcraft.

Danny Buck: But he gave the example that's a relatively scientific explanation. These are natural experiments and work by sympathy, in order to torment the witch and draw her out of hiding, which then, in theory, brought relief to the victim.

Danny Buck: Of course, the most recent volume of Lilly's publications came out in the 1680s, so in time to be influencing the [00:14:00] beliefs of people in Salem.

Sarah Jack: Who was Mark Prynne?

Danny Buck: I've mentioned him a couple of times now. I've found him a wonderful figure. He's one of these people that just jumps out of the records in a really interesting way. Again, I'm very grateful to Peter Elmer, the excellent historian of witchcraft, who's certainly retired now, and getting a chance to speak to him when I was at UEA. And he brought this to attention. He, again, in his index to his wonderful Politics and Witchcraft, he brought up a lot of the details I'm going to rely on. We are always able to see so far because we're standing on the shoulders of giants.

Danny Buck: But he is a fascinating figure. He's definitely an amateur astrologer. Unlike La Neve, unlike Lilly, it isn't his full time job. He's mostly a tenant farmer. In the town, he's renting land from the local ministry at one point and using that. So this is almost like a sideline, as the Americans say a side hustle, to provide a little bit of extra income. So we don't know much about his family, where [00:15:00] he's come from. We do know he's educated, because he's noted as having a very large collection of books for the time, of theological, historical, and philosophical books. Again, he particularly mentions Moulsons Almanac, who we've described as a brief of the famed Shepherds. And we know he's being employed by local residents. So we've got hats, pillows, are definitely being searched for. John Taylor claims a lost cow, calf, horse or cart, silver spoon or bodkin, knife or ring, millstone, windmill, cork. But I think he, again, is being a little bit ridiculous. We know he's being paid 30 shillings, which is quite a lot of money, for curing one Tills, the distracted man who I mentioned earlier.

Danny Buck: And we know that this medical treatment is already current with people like La Neve. This all suggests he is in demand, he is someone who's being employed quite regularly, even if this isn't his full time career.

Josh Hutchinson: What do we need to know about his landlord, the minister?

Danny Buck: We're very lucky that there's an interesting connection here.[00:16:00] Prynne is renting land from Matthew Brooks. Matthew Brooks, as we mentioned a little bit last time, was a veryLaudian minister in a town that was very Puritan, so they did not get on well. So he arrives at the town in 1630 in the middle of a crisis, where they're trying to handle the presence of the town's Puritan minister, who's being pushed to one side by the Dean and Chapter of Norwich, the more Laudian authorities. And he starts making a splash pretty early. By December 1631, he marches into the church and reads the 1627 injunctions against the Puritan minister, which means he's then arrested by the town's corporation. So in particular, Henry Davy, Thomas Green, Ezekiel Harris, and a man who we're definitely going to come back to later, Miles Corbett.

Danny Buck: Because of this, he sends a petition to the king. He's supported to the hilt and in response those people [00:17:00] arrested him were arrested in turn for a while. The king sides with Brooks, he gets authority from it. Brooks works very closely with the bishop of Norwich, Wren, from 1645 onwards, and he carries out a campaign that's really aggressively anti-Puritan. He makes the church look nice. He brings in stained glass windows, he gets rid of the raised seating used by the Puritan authorities so they could look down on the folk of Yarmouth and keep an eye on them, make sure they're behaving properly in church. And this feud between Brooks and Corbett deepens in 1637, when Corbett is accused of harbouring two émigré nonconformist ministers, so some real religious radicals, who'd come over to Great Yarmouth, smuggled in a lot of anti-Laudian books and hidden, pretending to be soldiers who'd been fighting in the Netherlands, and they take dinner in Miles Corbett's house, allegedly.

Danny Buck: Brooks is very diligent about investigating it, like a [00:18:00] little detective. This gets worse from 1640 as Wren, his bishop protégé, has moved on to Ely and, obviously with the collapse of the royal government and the collapse of the episcopate, the Church of England, there's a lot of tension for locals. And we are helped by what for me is a lovely document, a very fascinating document from the Parliamentary Archives, as he writes a petition to the House of Lords saying, 'can you stop them bullying me?' It's not great stuff for, Brooks. Brooks, sadly, I think at one point he mentioned he's being threatened by the wife of the alderman that she's going to throw lime and blind him, lime in his eyes, along with sand. His assistant, Thomas Cheshire, who we're going to come back to, is being, when he's walked through the very narrow streets in Great Yarmouth, which are called rows that go up and down to allow easy fishing in [00:19:00] the town, he's jostled, he's got people slamming their elbows into his back, and he's forced to leave in 1638.

Danny Buck: The saddest example, if you'll forgive my tangent, because this is such a rich colour, that while Brooks has gone to London to defend himself about attempts to try and remove him, there's a large group of angry, drunken locals get together. They have a big bonfire outside his house. They go to Ezekiel Harris, who obviously holds this grudge against Brooks, and they get roaring drunk. He provides them with massive beer. They then turn up to this bonfire. There's supposedly three of them in disguise as the three most important people in the kingdom. Considering this is 1640, I think it's likely you've got the Archbishop Canterbury, William Laud, because it gets mentioned later, the King, and probably Black Tom Strafford, the Earl of Wentworth. They're having this massive party. They, obviously Brooks isn't there. Instead it's just his housemate and his poor, [00:20:00] heavily pregnant wife and their eight children, terrified. And these mass mob comes out knocking on the door, demanding entry in the name of the Archbishop of Canterbury, presumably the man in costume. So again, there's a real tension already, this desire to purge the town of people they see as dangerous and too lenient and not Puritan enough. And it's this crowd that Prynne is hanging out with, so again it's one of the things that's going to be a black spot against him with the Puritan authorities.

Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned Miles Corbett. Can you introduce us to him?

Danny Buck: Miles is a fascinating figure in his own right. So he's the second son of Sir John Corbett, a baronet from Sprowston. That probably means very little to you. Hopefully, there's a Sprowston somewhere in America amongst the other many English renamed settlements, but this one is a slightly unimpressive outskirts of Norwich today, but again, it's [00:21:00] not an unpleasant place.

Danny Buck: He's a well-educated man. He goes to Christ's College, Cambridge in 1612. He attends Lincoln Inn. He's training as a lawyer before being called to the bar in 1623. In 1625, he becomes the town recorder for Great Yarmouth, so that's a role which encompasses both your town's legal expert, lawyer, but also having a role acting as a judge in court cases.

Danny Buck: Obviously it's very important we're coming back to the witch hunt. His brother was the MP for the town and was arrested by King Charles, as well, the five members who resisted his call for a loan to try and sponsor the war against Spain and France,and sadly dies in prison, which again, likely one of the reasons why Corbett is so anti-government and so angry with the Church of England there, as well as his time in Cambridge.

Danny Buck: He also undertook the role for King's Lynn and Aldeburgh recorder, which again is quite interesting, because both of those towns are towns that are touched by the [00:22:00] witch hunt. And again, one of the things I've always wanted to do is to really get into depth and look at some of these communities, because also Southwold is well connected to Corbett.

Danny Buck: Is he someone who's helping to persuade Matthew Hopkins to come along the East Anglian coast, that all these towns are towns which he's connected to? This is something thathopefully Marion will find the answer for that. I'm looking forward to that as part of her wonderful Seven Counties project, but he's definitely someone to keep an eye on for that.

Danny Buck: His allies might say he's a very rigorous man, legally trained, has a very important role to play in the Long Parliament, and he remains as MP up until 1660, so obviously proves himself loyal. He's involved in Ireland, as well, during the Commonwealth, trying to sort out land there. But for his enemies, Taylor describes him as a stiff cathedral hater, a utopian of no religion, and whose [00:23:00] fired zeal led him to be cruel to toothless aged ministers. Even crueler, newspapers in the 1650s were comparing him to the devil, saying he was very dark, which again, I always wonder again, he's someone from Sprowston. Is he quite swarthy? We don't know. There's a couple of lovely prints of him, where he looks he's doing all right for himself in the 1650s, he looks quite prosperous.

Danny Buck: And one of the lovely things we've got in the Norfolk archives is this little paper, it's like a two pieces of A5 folded together to form a little booklet. Which is rather touching, because it notes the date when he was married, and it notes the exact date to the hour his children were born. And obviously this is something he kept with him, which I find very sweet. He's a very human figure despite all this. So his role in the witch hunt? Obviously then we've said that he's the recorder. He's the one gathering the evidence. He's also, in his role as town clark, he's keeping an eye on the papers, and he's likely the person who sent the [00:24:00] invitation to Hopkins to come to Great Yarmouth in the first place. So he's deeply enmeshed.As we look, there's accusations he took a much deeper personal interest in the case against Mark Prynne.

Sarah Jack: What kind of charges were brought against Mark Prynne?

Danny Buck: So in 1638 he's first accused of using charms to locate the lost goods of one John Sparke, a sailor. But in 1645, he faced the much more serious allegations of practicing sorcery, so using witchcraft to locate lost goods belong to Anne Can and John Ringer, who's a mason. He's also indicted for using witchcraft on John Howlett, a goldsmith, and his son also named John, conveniently, who were both sick at the time of the trial.

Josh Hutchinson: Since it's been a while since we spoke about the 1645 witch hunt, can you refresh our memories with a brief overview of that?

Danny Buck: So it starts in the 22nd of April in [00:25:00] 1645, with Howlett and his son John being some of the first people to make their accusations of witchcraft. This leads to eventually ten people being accused, six convicted, of which five are hanged for the crime. There's also a second round of accusations in the spring of 1646, six are made, but all six of them are found not guilty.

Sarah Jack: And how did the community respond to the allegations against Prynne?

Danny Buck: As far as we can tell, early on there seems to be this support, the growing support after this, that there's increasing numbers of accusations that follow this. So we have a few more people, as we noted accusers being brought, not just Howlett and his son. But the trial itself, we have an account of Thomas Cheshire, so the man who'd been the assistant to Brooks, arriving and giving testimony, defending,it's the kind of defense where this man isn't a witch, [00:26:00] he's just a con man, but it's still better than being hanged. So there does seem to be some people willing to rally in his support, and obviously he's found not guilty, so obviously the jury are convinced that he isn't someone who's engaged in witchcraft.

Josh Hutchinson: What kind of evidence would they have presented against him?

Danny Buck: So from the collection, from the account we've got, obviously we have the trial records, and we know people are speaking in evidence for and against. But in particular, we have an account, a hostile account to Miles Corbett that mentions that the evidence being brought in front of the jury included Prynne's collection of astrological books.

Danny Buck: So we've mentioned Molson's Almanac, we've also got a book of merry fortune telling with the forms of dice and stars. Also, something which is referred to as a book of circles, so again, presumably these are different forms of charts being used. I've spoken to some people upon this, and they suggest possibly the [00:27:00] Greater and Lesser Keys of Solomon or something called the Picatrix, which are being brought in front of them as official texts. The allegation is that the names of constellations and the names of the astrological forms sound quite demonic. Col Quintinta, Asaf Petita, Zazara Phila, and the allegation is that Miles Corbett is so ill educated he believes them bitter, stinking, and poxy devils, rather than obviously the form of the stars. He names Alabazama, Copernicus, Rombolax, and Mestopheles. So Copernicus the astrologer being treated as a demonic figure.

Josh Hutchinson: How did Puritan beliefs influence the witch hunt and the perception of astrology?

Danny Buck: Certainly there's an element of Puritan beliefs being used to interpret astrological evidence. Obviously, we've talked about William Lilly. William Lilly [00:28:00] had to directly write a book called Christian Astrology, trying to seek to show this connection between astrological formations as a way to determine the future, as opposed to other forms. It's a very strict and narrow vision of what astrology could be.

Danny Buck: Previous people involved in this, obviously, we've mentioned at the start those two controversial 16th century figures. So they've mentioned the sword and ring consecrated as magical elements that could use to foretell the future. Similar to Debora Moretti when she was talking about the carafe that you could look into the crystal, you could look into the glass, you could see images, which is slightly more dangerous as opposed to just looking plainly at the stars. Again, compare that to our classic image of the fortune teller with the crystal ball, that these things are more dodgy. Similarly, I think John Dee allegedly had an obsidian mirror [00:29:00] taken from the Aztecs that he could use to communicate with angels. This is where it crossed over the line. So there is the possibility of that.

Danny Buck: The contemporary astrologer John Gadbury blamed pretenders for critics connecting astrology to magicians and necromancers.You have the astrologer's club, the educated types who could be reliable, and you have those slipping on the other side into magic, so being magicians and necromancers.

Danny Buck: Also, William Lilly himself sought to reject the dark sentence of oracles. So again, you're not seeking to commune with the dead or commune with devils to tell the future. You are just doing a nice scientific analysis of the stars, certainly in the context of the very favored imagination of the 1640s, where omens seem to be everywhere, and the devil's influence everywhere, looking instead of the heavens to more otherworldly and demonic forces. What's the risk? And as we saw that, John Taylor's [00:30:00] account there with that fear of constellations and devils, the two seeming interchangeable for those who don't know quite what's going on there. Then that astrology witchcraft could seem quite similar or close enough, despite the protestations by those people who wanted to prove it otherwise.

Sarah Jack: With Miles Corbett, he was a Puritan.

Sarah Jack: I'm thinking about the war that's happening, this antagonism that's between Brooks and Corbett, and then you've got this amateur astrologist, the devil in the community, I'm used to hearing how the Puritan ministers are seeing the devil in their people, butthey're seeing the devil from the other side right now in this situation?

Danny Buck: So Miles Corbett is a fascinating figure for that. So we said he's a Puritan, but he's not a Presbyterian Puritan. He's not someone who's seeking to build a new Church of England that's going to be Puritan. [00:31:00] He's instead closer in opinion to the kind of American congregational churches. He becomes a leading member of Great Yarmouth's Congregational Church, and that is a source of tension within the town. He writes letters to the corporation saying, 'why are you trying to exclude the Congregational Church from being part of our Puritan community?' Again, this split in the godly is something that's causing increasing tension. One of the fears of the devil is that he appears as angels in raiments of light, and there we have also groups of Anabaptists in Great Yarmouth at the same time.

Danny Buck: How much conformity can you have? In some ways, seeking someone who is obviously outside the pale you can unite around is something important, but this is something that goes way back. The first accusations are in 1638. While Corbett already has, we'd say, congregational leanings, he's communicating with congregationalists, people looking to build a new church the New England way, that divide is only [00:32:00] caused when there's an actual congregational church there. In this way, his role in promoting the witch hunt, in trying to seek to remove the devil, it provides a mirror to how ministers are, as well, I feel. The ministers in Great Yarmouth are involved in other accusations, particularly against Elizabeth Bradwell, a poor woman. We can see Corbett's crusade here as something that feels very personal, but again, we have reasons for thinking so, because of the way it's being treated as such, that it's used as something to ridicule Corbett later, for his superstition, his foolishness to get involved. But I feel, from the fact that he's so intertwined with these accusations, that it's something he takes seriously.

Danny Buck: And this man, who's been sitting there connected to the old regime and all its corruption provides a useful [00:33:00] vehicle to try and engage in this process of reformation and to reunite these two different kinds of godly people to make them move in the right direction. But again, it's one of those tragedies that, despite all this death that he's willing to engage in, it doesn't work really in the long term.

Sarah Jack: What is the outcome of criticism of this astrology being used by a farmer? As we know, Miles becomes a joke to some about this. What other outcomes were there?

Danny Buck: So this is particularly interesting for me. This is what brings it to life, is that this is used as part of a campaign. There's a wonderful poet, who I think we can describe in detail, John Taylor, who is in London during the 1630s. He's originally a waterboatman. He basically just travels across the river in his little [00:34:00] boat, creates ditties and witticisms, and is a very sharp wit. And now he feels a loyalty to the crown, but he also has a particular enmity against Miles Corbett and Corbett's role in London. The Civil War radicalizes him, so he starts producing political squibs in support of the king and against Parliament. But Taylor was arrested by Corbett and the Lord Mayor of London for seditious words against the five members, the people who the King tried to arrest in 1642, precipitating the Civil War. So Corbett becomes a particularly good example for him of someone he can satirize. He sees him as the classic example of the Parliamentarian elite. These people are officious, they're cynical, they are untrustworthy, and as the wonderfully titled poem, [00:35:00] A Brief Relation of the Idiotisms and Absurdities of Miles Corbett, Esquire, Council at Law, Recorder and Burgess for Great Yarmouth, they're idiots. He creates a wonderful 18 page pamphlet poem which lists 11 idiotisms in total.

Sarah Jack: And you're going to recite the 18 pages.

Danny Buck: Sadly, the last couple of pages have been damaged, but I will have to bring up some wonderful passages on the Corbett trial. This isn't the first time he attacks, Corbett. He does create a satirical parliamentary speech, which is allegedly by Corbett, which again shows his gullibility and his cruelty. And there's another one, 1641, which brings up the witchcraft case again, allegedly about the sort of things that Corbett's done in the year 1641. In the Idiotisms, we have, supposedly, allegedly Corbett presents a dog to the sessions for the crime of stealing some meat and accuses a man of stealing his own goods, even sort of him [00:36:00] getting drunk in the sand dunes outside the town. In particular, by Corbett's credulousness, his ill education, that means he sees Prynne as such a threat. It is a really good way to show the recorder's supposed injustice, credulity, and ignorance. So again, he can ridicule the recorder, he can ridicule puritism.

Danny Buck: Again, it's something that we can come back to because it's a theme that develops later, particularly after the Restoration, and about how people view witch hunting in general, which is part of the sort of end of that. But in this case, it's particularly useful, because he spends so much local detail trying to explain this case and explain why Corbett is useless.

Danny Buck: But he also does it in a way that feels quite modern, that what he ridicules isn't that somehow Prynne is a particularly skilled astrologer. He's just a con man. And it's part of the [00:37:00] expression of the idiotism of Corbett, is that he falls for this common man and sees him as a real danger, so just this sort of part time crook.

Danny Buck: 'There was a juggling, cunning man of fame, a nickname conjurer, Mark Prynne by name, whose skill was in astrology so great, that by that art he many folks did cheat. This Mark, pray mark me now that what here I write, could many fiends and planets recite, and more strange magic words from him would drop, there are in an apothecary shop.'

Danny Buck: Lovely bit where he describes where Thomas Cheshire has proven that Prynne is innocent. 'The substance of the book did straight explain to be as far from Master Corbett's talk as oatmeal is from eggs or cheese from chalk. And by that book's virtue we dare both to swear that no man can ever be a conjurer. They therefore, prayed the jury to conceive [00:38:00] the law cannot this man of life bereave. By their verdict, Prynne not guilty found and escaped a Popham check twixt sky and ground, and there the learned recoverer gained much credit, as some said, if they did not lie that said it.'

Danny Buck: So yeah, it's stirring stuff you could imagine around a pub after a few drinks.

Josh Hutchinson: What ultimately happens with Mark Prynne?

Danny Buck: This is the thing that, again, intrigues me with so much of this, that ultimately I don't know. He's found not guilty, he disappears from the record. Obviously we know that La Neve's almanacs continue into 1661. But we don't really hear much more about Prynne. Doesn't help that I've seen about four or five different spellings of his last name, anywhere from Pryne to Prince. And I know that Marion Gibson's new book is going to go from the ground up. I'm sure she has some tasty titbits for us about his life and career, but sadly this is where his story [00:39:00] ends, obviously a court case triumph for him, but sadly no further details on that.

Sarah Jack: Which I mean, we find that over and over, we hear, we have these court cases, they're intriguing, there's some details, we find, we get a look into a life and then that's the last word.

Danny Buck: Just lucky to have this much snapshots of him and Elizabeth Bradwell that mean we can build the sort of picture of their life and their beliefs, and again how these beliefs are changing, which I think is the most fascinating thing. I think one of the interesting elements in England is how this represents the peak of witchcraft beliefs and how already some of the themes of cynicism and rejection of witchcraft are starting to drop in. Obviously, there's still people like Joseph Glanville talking about witchcraft into the [00:40:00] 1680s. But by 1660s, we have Hudibras, the great epic poem about the life of the Restoration, but also looking back at what has happened in England during the Civil Wars and Commonwealth. And again, one of the first mentions we get of Hopkins and his reputation, along with the myth that he himself was hanged as a witch.

Danny Buck: So certainly that spirit of seeing the Puritan enthusiasm as being falling for fraudsters or an overenthusiasm about this is already coming out of Taylor's work in the middle of the 1640s, that these themes of how puritism is seen as an overreaction, it's interesting how this story is having much wider resonances.

Josh Hutchinson: What happened to Corbett with the Restoration?

Danny Buck: [00:41:00] He's elected to Parliament, and then people remember he's one of the regicides. He's the last person to sign the king's death warrant. So there's a general pardon, apart from the regicide, so he escapes to the Netherlands. So he's there with a group of regicides, and he's eventually caught in a daring raid by George Downing. If you want to know some of this detail, Charles Spencer's Kiss the King has a very vivid account of this. He's brought back. He has a rather touching last meal with his wife. We talked about he's obviously kept a record of her life alongside his, and is then executed for treason. So hanged, drawn, quartered, as you'd expect. So rather a grim end.

Josh Hutchinson: Is there anything else you wanted to touch on today?

Danny Buck: I also would recommend Bernard Capp. Bernard Capp is a really excellent writer in general on Stuart culture, but in particular in this account. He's [00:42:00] written.a very good biography of John Taylor and his fascinating life but also on astrologymore generally, definitely worth a check if you want to find out more of this stuff.

Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

Mary-Louise Bingham: November 23, 2023 was the last time that I visited Salem for at least one year. It was a special visit, because I went to Proctor's Ledge, not only to pay my respects to the 19 men and women who were hanged there in 1692, I also memorialized 19 men and women who were wrongfully accused and murdered for practicing sorcery and black magic as recent as October of 2023. These innocent women and men named came from countries such as Nigeria, South Africa, India, and the United States of America. I also tell the listener when that person died and the [00:43:00] circumstances of their brutal deaths. I urge you to watch this video on YouTube titled 'End Witch Hunts at Proctor's Ledge.' The link to the video will be in the show notes. Thank you.

Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.

Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunt News, a non profit organization, Weekly News Update. Thank you for joining us again this new year in unraveling obscure yet familiar witch hunt stories, true stories that persistently unfold in violence and the death of vulnerable and innocent society members today. We anticipate engaging with you each week as we navigate diverse and nuanced perspectives on magic, witchcraft, and the spiritual and supernatural across time, governments, cultures, and religions.

Sarah Jack: We must all respond to the destructive role of witchcraft fear driven actions. Exploring the intricacies of both historical witch trials and the ongoing [00:44:00] crisis of witch hunting alongside experts provides us with the necessary insights to take meaningful action. Witch hunts are a disturbing reality that persist, and as part of our podcast community, you play a crucial role in the collective advocacy. Thank you for tuning in, sharing our episodes, continuing the conversation with your sphere of influence, and asking leaders to take action.

Sarah Jack: Very recently in Malawi, there has been a heartbreaking incident of an elderly woman nearly buried alive after being accused of witchcraft. Recent podcast guest and Malawi advocate, Wonderful Mkhutche, reported that the sister of the accused witch passed away suddenly after a headache. The accusers then spread rumors attributing the death to magical harm caused by the accused. The victim was rescued just in time by the police, but all the perpetrators must be brought to justice.

Sarah Jack: A statement from Advocacy for Alleged Witches reads, 'we urge the Government of Malawi to take all necessary measures to [00:45:00] combat witchcraft accusations and witch persecution. Authorities should ensure that alleged witches are protected and witchcraft accusers, including those who aid and abet witch hunting in the communities, are punished.'

Sarah Jack: But this isn't isolated to Africa. There were individuals burned and killed just a few weeks before the end of 2023 in India, as well. In one incident, in Assam's Sonitpur district, a 30-year-old woman was brutally assaulted and set ablaze by a neighbor and accomplices. The motive behind the tragic attack was reportedly rooted in accusations of witchcraft harm against the accuser.

Sarah Jack: While attacks are still happening, there are advocates and organizations working to intervene. Please learn about these efforts and support them in any way you are able to. Take the action that you can. We must continue to cultivate societal values of compassion, understanding, and justice. It is our collective responsibility as a world community to unite against the inhumane treatment [00:46:00] of every innocent individual anywhere in the world, such as these women falsely accused of causing harm with witchcraft. Spread awareness. Share this information with your friends, family, and on social media. Use your voice to let others know about the urgency of combating witchcraft accusations and persecution.

Sarah Jack: Support advocacy groups. Organizations like the Advocacy for Alleged Witches are on the front line, fighting against such atrocities. Consider supporting them and similar groups dedicated to ending witch hunting. Contact authorities. Raise your voice by reaching out to relevant authorities and leadership. Urge them to take swift and decisive action to ensure justice for victims and accountability for all involved.

Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts actively supports exoneration and memorial efforts that aim to honor victims and raise witch hunt awareness. Take a stand for justice. Sign our petition at change.org/witchtrials to urge the state of Massachusetts to amend legislation, ensuring the inclusion of [00:47:00] all those wrongfully executed for witchcraft in the Massachusetts colony. Five women faced unjust executions for witchcraft in 17th century Boston, and it's time to clear their names. Let's persist in elevating the voices of both historical and contemporary victims of witch hunts.

Sarah Jack: Unlock the power of supporting our podcast by becoming a monthly donor. Our monthly donors are our Super Listeners. As a Super Listener, your monthly contributions make a significant impact. Visit our website and easily sign up for any donation amount that suits you. Your generosity fuels the content you love.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Jack: You're welcome.

Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to the first episode of Witch Hunt.

Sarah Jack: Witch Hunt can't wait to meet with you next week.

Josh Hutchinson: So subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Sarah Jack: Be sure to visit at our new website, aboutwitchhunts.com/.

Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell all your friends, families, and anybody you meet on the street all about Witch [00:48:00] Hunt, your favorite podcast.

Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

January 3, 2024

Irish Witch Trials with Andrew Sneddon

Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project

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Show Notes

This episode on Irish witch trial history takes a close look at the 1711 mass witch trial in Islandmagee through an illuminating conversation with Dr. Andrew Sneddon of Ulster University. We discuss what took place and learn about why there may have been fewer witch trials in Ireland than in other countries during the early modern period. We cover critical aspects of the witchcraft accusations, like Demonic obsession and possession, and address the similarities between Islandmagee and witchcraft accusations in Salem, and other New England witch trials. Dr Sneddon and his colleagues have launched a historic multimedia Islandmagee witch trial history commemoration project that opens September 9 in Northern Ireland. Find out what you can experience in person and what is available to experience online.

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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with Dr. Andrew Sneddon about witch hunts in Ireland.
[00:00:34] Sarah Jack: This episode is full of Irish witch trial information.
[00:00:40] Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn about the Islandmagee Witch Trials, Ireland's largest witch-hunt.
[00:00:48] Sarah Jack: There were eight women imprisoned and one man, a father and husband, likely executed.
[00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: The victims were Janet Carson, Janet Latimer, Janet Main, Janet Miller, Margaret Mitchell, Catherine McCalmond, Janet Liston, and Elizabeth Sellor. And the man who likely was executed was William Sellor.
[00:01:17] Sarah Jack: Dr. Sneddon and his colleagues have rolled out an exceptional exhibit with the Carrickfergus Museum that is hosting it September 9th through November 16th.
[00:01:33] Josh Hutchinson: This exhibit's got it all. It's got images, video, virtual reality, a video game, a graphic novel, an animation, and a play? It's got it all.
[00:01:52] Sarah Jack: A historic play from 1948, couple years before The Crucible.
[00:02:00] Josh Hutchinson: Before the Crucible, there was this play.
[00:02:03] Sarah Jack: Witches in Eden,
[00:02:05] Josh Hutchinson: Witches in Eden. Check it out.
[00:02:09] Sarah Jack: The Ulster University Research Project was led by Dr. Helen Jackson, Dr. Victoria McCollum, and Dr. Andrew Sneddon. There's also a range of objects from the Carrickfergus Museum's own collection, plus loaned items from the National Museums Northern Ireland and the National Library of Ireland and Belfast Central Library.
[00:02:30] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds exciting. Count me in.
[00:02:32] Sarah Jack: It's amazing what is available on the website to be able to look at and learn and enjoy. But, getting to go in person. It's a historic presentation of witch trial history, so what an incredible opportunity. If you can go, you need to go.
[00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: You do. And for those of you who can't, w 1 7 1 1 .org, w1711.org, is the place to go to check that out. They've got videos you can watch and images to look at and history to read up on, including all of the transcripts of the trial records from the Islandmagee Witch-Hunt.
[00:03:19] Sarah Jack: So spread the word. Let your people know that this is going on. Get them online looking. If they're in the area, send them over to go experience what's available.
[00:03:31] Josh Hutchinson: Be there.
One thing you'll notice at the exhibit and in this episode is how similar the Islandmagee witch trials were to many of the other witch trials that we've heard about, including those at places like Salem. And there's this element of a possible diabolical possession, and we talk about how there's a fine, flexible line basically between possession and bewitchment, basically comes down to who the victim blames. Does the victim say that the devil is affecting them directly, or do they blame it on a witch?
[00:04:24] Sarah Jack: And there's some great comparisons in the dialogue today, right out of the Salem history.
[00:04:32] Josh Hutchinson: Out of Salem, out of Connecticut, out of so many places, there are these cases with afflicted persons behaving very similar to how people behave when they're possessed by the devil, according to the set down traditions that we have from this time period.
[00:04:58] Sarah Jack: We are so happy to have Dr. Andrew Sneddon here today. He's the leading expert on the history of the Islandmagee Witch Trial of 1711 and has published widely on Irish witchcraft and magic. He has spent the last decade taking the untold story of the Islandmagee Witches and Irish witchcraft to a new, diverse, international audience. He has worked with numerous libraries, archives, museums, community, educational, and women's groups. He's the president of Ireland's oldest professional historical Society, Ulster Society for Irish Historical Studies.
[00:05:34] Josh Hutchinson: What sets the Irish Witch trials apart from others?
[00:05:38] Andrew Sneddon: I think the lack of them, probably, you start with a negative, Irish witchcraft. There was only a handful of trials now in the early modern period. Now there's a lot more trials after, ironically, the witch legislation is repealed. And they're involving witch accusation at some level, but they're not witch trials per se. But during the early modern witch hunts there, there's very few of them.
[00:06:07] Sarah Jack: The Witchcraft Act was enacted in 1586, but not repealed until 1821.
[00:06:14] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. So it's actually a copy of the Elizabethan Act of 1563, which I know that you've covered before, in other programs. This is part of the Elizabethan colonial rollout of legislation to, Uh, Ireland and did the roll out the Witchcraft Act as well. You're right, it's there right until the early 19th century. And it's almost, by that point, it rolls out of the imagination of the elites and it is just an administrative cleanup, I think Ian Bostridge said it was at one point, but that doesn't mean that popular witchcraft belief isn't everywhere, or that all elites don't believe in witchcraft anymore. But definitely of that legislative level after the Irish Parliament is away it's repealed.
[00:07:05] Josh Hutchinson: Can you quantify how many witch trials there were in Ireland?
[00:07:11] Andrew Sneddon: There was many accusations and formal accusations, but there were usually coming from Presbyterians and Presbyterians coming from Scotland with their own witchcraft place where, as you know, it was really bad. So they're coming after 1660, so most of them are not going to trial.
So there's loads of accusations that we know of, and some of them get to court, but don't go anywhere. So there's actually only two trials, two main trials. There's some trials before the 1586 Act and obviously ones after it, but there's only two main, one of Florence Newton in Youghal in Cork in 1661 and Islandmagee Witches in County Antrim in what is now Northern Ireland in Ulster in 1711, and this is nine people.
We don't really know what happened to Florence Newton, if she was executed or not. Some people think there are, but the, I've transcribed the, all the documents. It doesn't tell you what happened to her. And we know that the eight Islandmagee witches were not executed and, the, they missed out that, just, a legal nicety and on the day of the trial, and they were imprisoned under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act for four times in the pillory on Market Day, as well. And the one male witch we think might have been executed
[00:08:28] Sarah Jack: How do you think he would've been executed?
[00:08:32] Andrew Sneddon: Well, do you remember what we were talking about, the rolling out of the Irish witchcraft legislation was just a rolling out of the English witchcraft legislation? Again, by 1600 the older Gaelic systems of law, the Brehon law and systems of legal prosecution are being replaced at a county level in the 32 counties, at least with the English system.
So what you know about the English witch trials and how they were actually like governed, just put that in Ireland. So you've got justice of the peace, you've got magistrates, you've got the grand jury of 23 men. You've got the assize court. So all the things that are keeping witchcraft prosecution low in England, which it was quite hard to get somebody prosecuted for witchcraft in England, are operating in Ireland. So same legal administration, same courts, same law. And it's coming from Scottish Presbyterians. That's where the accusations are coming from. So it's very weird. It's a Catholic country with Presbyterians making the accusations, mainly that we know, and an English court system
[00:09:45] Josh Hutchinson: So it's a jumble of three different sets of beliefs and rules and traditions. Four.
[00:09:54] Andrew Sneddon: Four 'cause what we haven't talked about is a mass of the population. So you start getting Protestants coming in after the Reformation. Even before that Ireland has a colonial past from the 12th century, but they're in increasingly coming in after the 16th century and the plantation, and the people who are bringing them with them strong belief in witchcraft are usually coming from England.
So if you go back to Youghal, that is a puritan settler English place. It's in Cork. And so you will see familiars, and you'll see swimming. You'll see tropes that are in English witchcraft there. And then if you go up north, if you go to Islandmagee, you will see more Presbyterian and tropes.
But the fourth one is the mass of the population. The kind of, at this period, 80% of the population, they still Irish speaking, Irish Catholics, population and they are not making formal accusations. Now, in the past we would argue that it was because they didn't want to go to Protestant courts, but we found out that they did for other things, so they might have for witchcraft, it's still a permanent argument perhaps, but we've looked at, Ronald Hutton and myself, and we've looked at belief more, and we would suggest that they just, it's not that they didn't believe in witches. They just believed in a witch that was less threatening, that attacked agricultural produce, stole milk and butter.
Now, you get this in Poland and places where they do execute witches, but the threat level is higher there, because they have a higher demonic input to them. There is no demonic input to these beliefs. These witches are women. They shapeshift into hares to steal milk, and you get that more in the folklore, or they use a sympathetic magic to transfer the goodness from their own crops to elsewhere.
Now you will see this in Isle of Man, you'll see it in Wales, and you'll, as I said, you'll see in other countries. But when it starts to become a wee bit demonic or it becomes more of a problem, then that's when you start getting, I think, the prosecutions of witches. And you don't get that in Ireland, in this period, anyway. So the mass of the population have a low threat level of witchcraft. They have a witch figure, or it's nothing.
[00:12:16] Josh Hutchinson: So the people accused of witchcraft, generally, they weren't killing children and causing people to be sick, that kind of thing?
[00:12:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, I, and they weren't actually formally accusing them. They might have been doing it, probably don't know, because we just don't have their records. They're, they were an Irish speaking population, and we don't have, we don't know quite frankly. We know very little, we know about the beliefs usually transmitted through English, unfortunately, rather than, there is very little in Irish and it's mainly legal and political, and that has survived in manuscript form and nothing about witchcraft. It's usually transmitted through, as some people would say, the colonial gaze through English.
But let's go back to Islandmagee and let's get back to Youghal. What they're shared is, they're very similar, in fact, to Salem, the start of Salem. They're very similar to what you're getting in Lowland Scotland in the 1590s and the early 1700s. They are witchcraft trials involving demonic possession, where the main is demonic possession. Now, I know that there's controversy over whether there was demonic possession in Salem at the beginning, but definitely like the tropes are all there, the similarities, the fits, and the young people and blaming other people for that, blaming witches rather than blaming the devil himself, which would, indicate some sort of, sinfulness in their own parts. So they blame witches for their symptoms, so you get spectral evidence, although unlike Salem, it's not kicked out, it's the main one in Islandmagee, and it's the main one that's used in Youghal, as well, although witness testimony, as well.
And they actually in Islandmagee bring forth the vomited objects. That's why, we'll talk about it later, but that's why we've represented them in the VR. There's a material culture there. Yeah.
[00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: But the demonic was unusual for Ireland, even the type of possession that was occurring was that unusual?
[00:14:36] Andrew Sneddon: It wasn't unusual given who it's happening to, so you're getting demonic possessions in the late 16th century and early 17th century in England. And then lo and behold, you'll see it in Cork in 1661 among the same people, the settler populations. And then you're seeing it increasingly in the north of Ireland in Ulster from the people who are coming from Scotland.
I know that Brian Levack in a great book on witch-hunting in Scotland argued it was the Calvinist Network, the British Calvinist Network.
[00:15:09] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah and I were talking about demonic possession yesterday, and there was really like a fine line between what's demonic possession and what's bewitchment. So yeah, so sometimes hard to say.
[00:15:27] Andrew Sneddon: It is hard to say in some circumstances, but you can see when they're talking about the devil made me roll about or the devil will not get me, and when they're in their fits or their convulsions, as well, when, you know, the witches are visiting them, is it that's what's causing the convulsion or is it the devil or? It's much more clear cut when you go to certain places in Europe, when you're getting whole convents are demonically possessed.
But it is direct demonic possession, rather demonic possession via witchcraft. It starts to get a bit gray when you, when it's involving witchcraft, but I think in some clear cases that is clearly not your normal witch trial.
[00:16:09] Josh Hutchinson: It's easy for things to get out of hand. You mentioned Salem and Islandmagee starts with this possession or affliction, and then you bring in the spectral evidence. It's really easy for things to start getting outta hand.
[00:16:25] Andrew Sneddon: What I argue in my book, Possessed by the Devil, it was 2013, it was a long time ago I wrote. I'm writing a second edition as we speak, but what I suggested was what was key here. And especially when you're looking at 1711, within the grand scheme of things, it's a period of decline, perhaps not in belief, that's a tricky one, but definitely judicial skepticism and a drop in trials, different times, different places, different reasons, different rates of decline. We know that. But there definitely is trailing off. And what you need, a committed central actor. And again, Levack would argue they're following a cultural script here that's easy to learn. You need a central actor who's keeping it going all the way through that you can focus your attention on.
Now she is Mary Dunbar, she's 18. She's educated, she is visiting a family where there has been demonic obsession and the matriarch has died in suspicious circumstances. Now, she is as I said, educated, biblically sound. The male authors of the sources tell you that, at pains, that she's good looking and she's trustworthy and all this stuff, and they're always demoniacs, demonically-possessed people are always showing themselves to be paragons of virtue, and I think she does that.
Contrast against the eight women that she accuses, first of all, who are tried at 31st of March, 1711. They are visually different. They're disabled. Two of them have lost an eye, one has fell on a fire and is burnt down one side, she has a crooked hand, one has, in the parlance of the time, a club foot. They're a small pox scarred. And the idea that everybody was small pox scarred, , I don't think is true when you read diaries at how people are affected by their visual change.
So they'll look different, but they're also act different. They challenge patriarchal norms, they drink strong alcohol, wine, they smoke, they resist arrest. They don't follow the prosecution process. They try to evade it at every turn. And even when they have no idea what's going on at the trial, they still plead guilty and deny their innocence, right to, so there, there is resistance and there's agency, but these are marginal women. They're poor. They have dubious reputations. Some of them could have been practicing at some level popular magic. The contrast is really palpable between believable witches, marginalized people, and the believable accused. So they're believable witches and she's a believable witness. And it's a heady combination.
Then Mary Dunbar dies three weeks after the first trial. We don't know why. And it took me going through every newspaper in 1711 in Ireland, and I found it. And basically, yeah she died and, but she'd already been accusing a final witch, William Sellor. Janet Liston was his wife, and his daughter was Elizabeth Sellor. Basically, it went from a misdemeanor to a felony, because she had died in the time that she had accused him. And he went to trial in 1711. Like we do a lot of the time in Scottish trials, we are assuming that he was executed.
[00:19:58] Josh Hutchinson: So the eight women, they're tried first, and then Mary Dunbar dies, and then William Sellor is tried with the enhanced charges?
[00:20:08] Andrew Sneddon: Yes. And that's it. There is no more under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act. There's one, an interesting one, in 1807 where the person could have been prosecuted for witchcraft. Mary Butters, she's a cunning person. She's a magical practitioner or a service magician, if you want to use that parlance, and she tries to cure a bewitched cow, just like we were talking about there, and ends up killing everybody in the house. Her magic goes wrong and she kills them by carbon monoxide poisoning by burning sulfur in a house to where everything has been sealed up.
She could be done under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act, but isn't. And it just shows you there's no, at a judicial level, anyway, by that time to try people for witchcraft under the witchcraft act, so it's a dead letter in that sense. Doesn't mean belief has went anywhere.
[00:21:06] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means, that she was a cunning woman?
[00:21:12] Andrew Sneddon: If you look at the main historians, but the parlance, maybe it's changing. Some people don't like cunning folk because it's, it is anglophone. But and I want to widen the, the parameters of it, but there are among many magical practitioners, and I'll no go through them all, there's so many different ones and the borders between them are very different. But a fortune teller, for example. But a cunning person, I would say, is a multifarious magical practitioner. That is somebody who's commercial who usually charges money or goods in kind and usually perform more than one magical service. Now, this can be thief detection. This can be a counter magic, which is bread and butter a lot of the time. And that means detecting, thwarting, or bringing witches to the authorities. But they also can do some magical healing using herbs or spells or whatever that is not caused by supernatural means, that are natural means. And there's some divination in there, as well, as I said, lost or stolen goods, but also thief detection and that sort of thing. So they're remarkably consistent, cunning folk, that particular type, I think, from the early modern period, right through in the modern period. And you get 'em all over Europe, and you get them in America as well, right up to the late 19th century, possibly beyond.
[00:22:35] Josh Hutchinson: When people were accused of witchcraft in these few cases in Ireland, how were they tested?
[00:22:45] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, this is the thing, spectral evidence, by this time, they haven't used it after, I think, is it 1655 in England? And obviously, it's overturned in Salem and this is 1711 we're talking about. So they know there is ultimately question, so they, they do blind tests, almost pseudoscientific the, because a demonic possessed person will get worse when the person approaches them or touches them.
And they actually did that in some trials. I think they did that in the Bury St. Edmonds, one in 1645 in England. And they get the person to touch them. That could be said, oh, they're just seeing the person that they want to get executed and acting up. So they get them and bring them in silently and get them to come in behind them so they can't see it. They also get a lineup. They bring 30 people, from everywhere, 30 women from everywhere and line them up. And she has to pick out the witch. She says she's never met them before. She only has met them when they attack her spectrally.
[00:23:48] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of that sounds so familiar with Salem and other witch trials that we've talked about on the show before. In Salem, they did the touch test, the exact same thing. I wish they would've done a lineup, because that could have eliminated some of them who, the witnesses who were accusing didn't, like you said, they'd never met a lot of these people that they were naming beforehand, and so they would name somebody in some far off town and have no idea who they were when they saw them, except that they were the only one that was brought in. So by process of elimination, they're like, oh, that's Goody Sandwich or whoever it was.
[00:24:39] Andrew Sneddon: The problem there is that Mary Dunbar says she had never met them before, but she's able to pick them out every single time. Every single time.
[00:24:47] Josh Hutchinson: So she knew them somehow?
[00:24:49] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I argue in the book that she's got an accomplice.
[00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We know in some of the testimony in Salem, there's accounts given by like defense witnesses that say we heard that afflicted accuser ask somebody, "who is that lady who's up there, who's the prisoner at the bar?" And they would get information from the crowd. But yeah, she must have known somehow. You don't get a hundred percent right.
[00:25:19] Andrew Sneddon: No, and you, the public spectacles. The house was absolutely full, and you could argue if it's demon possession case. It's a chance to see the devil in action. You are basically touching the other world through this person. And yeah, there's no tv, This is something that's happening in a community in a peninsula that is eight miles long with 300 people in it. You can see why everybody's interested in it. And you're right, there could be all sorts of things that, that are happening that are culturally transmitting this to her. The idea that is a cultural script, that she's actually following a script, but she's also reacting like every good actor to the audience.
This is why I think their symptoms change in demonic possession cases. Now not all of symptoms are simulated. They can start off simulated and then become unsimulated. They can be suffering from some illness. Now, I couldn't, I went through all the types and I couldn't see, and they usually would bring this up at some point. And they did before in other occasions in Ireland, but they didn't, here. I think it was simulated to some extent in Mary Dunbar's case.
[00:26:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I have some theories about that too, about how in Salem, at least, the afflicted persons, there might've been some illness, there might've been just a genuine fear that they were bewitched and like you alluded to, with the touch test, they get near the person that they think is afflicting them, they're gonna act out somehow just because the fear is gonna overwhelm them.
[00:27:08] Andrew Sneddon: They know what's expected culturally, there's a cultural script. They know how to react in a demonic possession case. They know where it is and that's when, we've always tried to, I've tried to do is that the idea of these people live in a magical moral universe where spiritual essences are constantly interfering in your world, everybody believes that some sense, not everybody, but a lot of people, the accused and accusers would believe in witches and witchcraft and the possibility of demonic possession. But then again, you've got quite a lot to gain. We've talked about the forces, the patriarchal forces, that brought the eight women to the fore, those patriarchal forces were also constraining Mary Dunbar. She's in a tight, clerical family. She's not considered in Ireland an adult. Doesn't matter if she's 40 until she's married. Even then, I understand the agency, I understand resistance, and understand the ways that you can overturn patriarchy and the forces that cut through patriarchy, but it still limits your options. And so you could see it in that sense as well.
It's a reaction against are very strict, gendered, patriarchal upbringing. You are able to swear in the minister, punch 'em, spit on them, rip up bibles, cavort, and roll about in beds with young men without any damage to your reputation. You can move from the margins of adult attention to the center stage of a drama of your own creation. Now, this is James Sharpe who put words to this and Philip Almond, when he was studying mainly English demonic possessions. But I think it's, I think it's a good explanation. I don't think it's total explanation in all demonic possessions, but I think it works here.
[00:29:00] Josh Hutchinson: It works in so many cases that we've heard about of this kind of thing it's these young women who have the pressures to get married and be good Christians and good mothers and wives, and they're acting out against the system that's squeezed them into that role.
[00:29:24] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. And so that's why, accuser and accused, and putting pejorative spins on both, I think is a mistake. I think you have to understand the situation they're in.
A community itself is under pressure because the Presbyterians are being basically turned against, they, they help to defeat the the Catholic uprising and they help bring William of orange to power and then they're abandoned by the Church of Ireland.
They're trying to shut down their schools. They're trying to enforce old laws. After 1704, they force 'em out of local government. So they feel that they're their whole raison d'etre is under threat. Their whole religion and religious freedom are under threat. And that's the Presbyterians in 1711. Now, you get economic downturn and then you get famine, and then they all go, like whole communities from where I'm sitting, just go to America. Just, we're talking a minister and 300 families, they just go to America.
There's pressures there and communities under crisis. All these things make whatever problems you've got worse. We've all lived through covid. If you were having anything, any problems in Covid, the wider situation made them worse, and I definitely think you've gotta look at that when you're looking at Islandmagee, as well.
[00:30:51] Josh Hutchinson: We've heard about this almost formula of this confluence of all these tensions that has to occur to put the pressure on the community so that they start seeing witches, things like the warfare and the crop failure and religious conflict.
[00:31:13] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a whole load of things. Not all the time, but it's a whole load of things going wrong at the same time when you get a mass trial.
And this is a mass trial, nine people. So it is.
[00:31:26] Josh Hutchinson: Out of a community of 300, that's a lot of people. We've talked about the demonic possession. In Islandmagee, there's also a talk about a demonic boy. What can you tell us about that character?
[00:31:42] Andrew Sneddon: He is part of the demonic obsession. It's like it's a precursor, it's where the demon, and you'll see it quite a lot of the time in Presbyterian Ulster, where they get the elders from the Presbyterian church and they get a minister to come and investigate instances of this, where a demon is basically wrecking the house. Fast forward 150 years and it's a poltergeist, but at this point it's demonic obsession, and the demonic boy seems to be at the core of this. And he a appears to old Mrs. Haltridge. Now old Mrs. Haltridge owns the house. She's the widow of a Presbyterian minister and that's where Mary Dunbar visits, 'cause she is the niece of Anne Haltridge. After that, she's died in mysterious circumstances and that's when it all kicks off.
The demonic boy visits old Mrs. Haltridge and threatens her and grabs a Turkey cock and tries to kill it with a sword and smashes windows. But do you remember I was talking an accomplice? One of the persons who see this is the servant, Margaret Spear, and she is around a lot when this happens before me comes and then she's around that when a lot it happens, 'cause this behavior continues. They only, I think, Mary Dunbar only sees the demonic boy, once or twice. Now the demonic boy is obviously, a demon and it's recognized sometimes it's called a spirit. And this is the popular imagination. Sometimes specters and demons, there's a porous boundary between them, they're always coming up against it. You've mentioned it already, the unstable meanings all the time when you're dealing with witchcraft. And I think that is definitely one of them. The demonic boy. He is dressed in black. He's got everything that tells you he's a demon.
[00:33:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like he was a little prankster or something to me.
[00:33:48] Andrew Sneddon: Or it's fantasy.
[00:33:50] Josh Hutchinson: Either one.
[00:33:51] Andrew Sneddon: The demonic body wasn't seen by many, but a lot of the witnesses saw the other stuff, right? So they saw a big bolster pillow about two foot high walk across the floor of the kitchen. They saw a petticoat just twirling. This is like horror movie stuff, twirling in the middle of the floor. You've got lithobolia everywhere, getting pelted with stones and other classic demonic obsession possession thing. Cats, there's some demonic cats in there. If you wanna see something similar, look at the trial of Jane Wenham in 1712, a year later in Hertfordshire loads of people have written loads of good stuff on it. But you can see some of the politicization happens in 1711 in Islandmagee, as well. You see it becoming a party political tool between whig and Torries, only it's reversed in Ireland. The Torries want to let the Islandmagee witches off, and the Presbyterians want to get her prosecuted.
[00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have a couple of these stone throwing demon cases in New England, also. There's one we're looking at in Massachusetts right now, the Elizabeth Morse case, with her grandson that comes to live with her and then all the weird stuff starts happening with the bed moving in the night and stones coming in the chimney and all these things. So that sounds like it was the demonic obsession playbook.
If you want to talk about the 19th century, what happens then as far as witchcraft accusations?
[00:35:27] Andrew Sneddon: They don't end. I have argued elsewhere that witchcraft belief, there is people who publicly deny it and then what they do actually suggests that they do believe in it, right? So they say they don't believe in witches, but they will put up witch stones to protect their houses or they will maybe accuse somebody of witchcraft or they will not go somewhere or something, it'll affect their behavior.
And then there's people who say they believe in witchcraft and this and accuse people of witchcraft and follow through it even to the court, and you're getting this in the 19th century in Ireland. So by the late 19th century we were talking about kinda polarization between Gaelic Irish Catholic belief and Protestant settler belief. I think they come together in a kinda perfect storm.
So the Protestant belief, you get more of this kind of dairy stealing seeping into that. And you can see it even when it goes to some, go to the church courts, the Presbyterian church courts. You can see it by the late 1700s and again, I think on the other side, Gaelic Irish communities, what you'll see is by the 19th century definitely is witches can harm human beings more. And itself, the act of, especially after the famine in the 1640s that stealing produce and in rural areas becomes a bigger problem and something, especially among the communities where these accusations are happening.
So people are accusing, again, accusing their neighbors, usually co-religionists. There's usually not Catholic v Protestant, it's usually Catholic against Catholic, and they're accusing them of killing cows, stealing butter, stealing, even transforming into hare, sometimes, but usually just stealing butter, using the evil eye on their cows, using charms, buried on their land, things like that, and they're accusing each other, but they can't really take them to court because after 1821, there's no act to do it by, and whether they want to anyway, but what they take things into their own hands, so you'll get accusers just like in England and just like in 19th century America accusers grabbing them and swimming them and, you know, beating them up. But in Ireland, it's usually rather than mobs doing it as an England, in some places in America in the 19th century, in Ireland, it's usually individuals.
So what you'll do is you'll think somebody has been stealing the milk produce from your cows using sympathetic magic. And you'll get cases where they shoot them, they hit them with shovels, they hit them with reaping hooks. There's one murder. And Will Pooley again is doing some brilliant work in France showing that this is happening in France as well.
And so you're getting accusers taking it out that way, but they're also using the lower courts that are rolled out after 1840s, the petty sessions. And so what they're doing is they can't prosecute somebody for magically stealing their milk or their butter or killing the cow, but what they can do is they can do them for theft. They're, you know what they think they've magically stole their milk, but they're just doing them for theft.
The people who are accused are also using the law to accuse their accusers of slander. And sometimes they're finding themselves in hot water, because what they're doing is reacting to the accusation by beating up the accuser. So they're doing the same thing and or slander in the accuser, so you're getting flooded after 1840s up to the end of the 19th century of these accusations, usually in lower courts, but sometimes they go to the higher courts, like the quarter sessions or the assizes when some serious, when they're slashing people, and it's not just like a factional violence, this is violence it targeted to, against something you think has bewitched you or the other way around. And so you're getting that right up until the end of the 19th century. I think that the last one that I came across, it tails off in the 20th century, and the last one's in 1946. The last big one is 1927, so it's tailing off definitely in the 20th century. Courts are just turning their backs, especially when the island of Ireland separates into Northern Ireland and the Republic in 1921, but the belief's still there and you're still getting it in rural areas right up to the end of the 20th century, belief, especially in witches who can harm cattle or steal produce and occasionally harm humans.
[00:40:15] Josh Hutchinson: 1927, huh?
[00:40:18] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And you'll see as well, if you look at the material culture, if you look at some of the objects that survive, and this is a real one, a witch stone, hag stone. You'll see these in museums in Northern Ireland and they're hung in buyers or sometimes wee ones around the necks of the cows to protect them.
So they, they do take it seriously. They're used against fairies sometimes, as well, and also, yeah, I think it's important to look at doubt and to look at saying one thing and doing another. But I think it's very important to understand as well, in the Irish context, at least, people are believing in witches, they're frightened of them, and they're doing something about it for a good party in the 19th century.
[00:41:00] Sarah Jack: I don't understand, like that's less than a hundred years ago. How did so many of us forget and we don't understand what these protective things are just a century later? How did that happen?
[00:41:17] Andrew Sneddon: Just like cultural memory and social memory, there is a great book by Guy Beiner called Social Forgetting. And I've argued in a book in 2022 called Representing Magic that you've got all this kind of popular belief, right? But the books and sermons written by male elites are saying they're using enlightenment rhetoric. They're in the 19th century.
But the idea that we are enlightened elites. We are enlightened. This land's enlightened. We are moved beyond the ignorance and the bigotry of the witch hunts. Look how great we are, and they use it as an example to place distance between them and themselves. And it's easier in, in Ireland 'cause there's so few of them anyway, it's the same rhetoric you'll see in England and you'll see in North America as well.
The historians will talk about historic witch trials in the 19th century and the antiquarians, and completely ignore the fact that all this is happening around them. And you'll see it in the cultural representations, as well. Ian Bostridge and Owen Davies were saying that witchcraft is history, basically. And it's the same thing. It's, it is when you deal with witchcraft, you deal with the historic example. So when the 19th century, they love talking about Islandmagee, they love talking about Youghal. They don't discuss the fact it's happening all around them. And what they also do, they, and invest it with gender ed language as well. By the 19th century, the end of the 19th century, is weaponized by the newspapers. And so what they start talking about, again, some of the same newspapers as reporting the crimes at another part of the newspaper are saying, "oh, there is some belief, but we're past that." But still, it is still there.
And the historians, as well. And the newspapers are gendering it just as female. Now as we, we saw 1711, there was a male witch, but also in the 19th century, a lot of these people who are accused are actually male, as well. I think it's something like 40%. I can't remember the figures off top of my head, but I think Will Pooley's finding this in France as well, that there's a far greater proportion of men, so their gendering it as female. They're just saying it is something that's passed and that has been reproduced in newspapers and then it's been reproduced in culture and poetry and paintings and drama. And I think that's where it is, and you'll find that in Ireland.
And you know what they'll say why are you doing witchcraft? And I was told by hundreds of people, even historians, what are you doing, because there wasn't any in Ireland. I think part of that is a problem that it was remembered at a local level 'cause people in Islandmagee for two centuries after it remembered it, but there's a discursive silence around it as well.
When we are saying about this kind of, almost discursive silence, that's, if you're looking at kinda official sources, you're looking at sermons, you're looking at male elites. But if you take on board folklore and material culture, if you go beyond the kind of, you don't know, almost the official to the vernacular, whether it is in Irish or English, if you go to the folklore, then you will find, I think this more and more, and that's where I have went as well to learn about witchcraft. And it's something that Guy Beiner argues as well, that when he was talking about the 1798 rebellion it's forgotten in certain spheres, but kept alive in others in different ways, in, in different contexts. And I think it, it works for the Islandmagee trial as well.
[00:45:00] Josh Hutchinson: Talking about the material culture, what were some other forms of protective magic that might have been employed?
[00:45:08] Andrew Sneddon: The big thing you know, would be, especially, and in Ireland would be protecting the churn. So you would put hot embers into the churn when you're churning. You would maybe have something roundabout the churn. You would make sure that people didn't say things or do things, you wouldn't have anybody looking at the churn. With children as well you have a lot of, especially when they were young, a lot of rituals and sometimes objects used to protect against witchcraft.
But just like in everywhere else, you get written charms are held close to the body, especially in soldiers. You get personal amulets all those sorts of protective magic. And you get, it's used in Islandmagee, as well. She first goes to a Catholic priest who, she's a Presbyterian, but it just shows you the cross boundaries of popular magic, because he's meant to have the best charm. So she goes to him, it doesn't work, and then she goes to a Scottish man, and he has one that works, but it makes her worse. So they cut it off, and it's a magical string that she uses , but they also use herbs as well. Especially this is something that's probably argued more by Ronald Hutton. He would say that witchcraft belief wasn't taken up as much because the Gaelic Irish believed in fairies and a lot of the things that fairies did were blamed on witches but use a lot of vervain and other plants were used, foxglove, all the kind of stuff, and mountain ash as well. You all the ones you see elsewhere would be used either to cure or as protection, but they're limitless. I could go all day on the different types.
[00:46:50] Josh Hutchinson: The commemorative project and exhibition, can you just explain that in a nutshell to begin with?
[00:46:57] Andrew Sneddon: This is a commemorative an a memorialization. The first plaque to Islandmagee Witches was erected this year. That was something outside the project, something we were involved in, but something that was outside this project. No. And we have taken it forward with this exhibition.
It's the first exhibition of an Irish witchcraft trial. And it's happening here. As far as I know, it's the first one. And it comes out of a project called the Islandmagee Witches a creative and digital project. The website is, and I'm sure you can put it up in yours, w1711.org, and all the outputs are there.
And what we wanted to do was to take this to another level. I have a practitioner of public history. I've done TV and podcast, but it mainly radio and TV and talks. And I took it all after it broke in 2013. I took this everywhere. I was talking about it a lot. This is creative collaboration of public history where the historian is actually helping to create a history as well.
So the outputs are that, so we are wrote with a local graphic artist from Derry, Londonderry, a graphic novel about the trial. We also wrote with it, the project I'll say is led by me and Dr. Victoria McCollum, but it involves a whole load of people from Ulster University as well, and a lot of funding from Connected and AHRC and things like that.
But the VR was with Dr. Helen Jackson. And that makes you become demonically possessed. And we're trying to get across what it's like to be demonically possessed, but also what it's like to be accused in a kind of way to deal with intangible cultural heritage in a very immediate and immersive environment and let people engage with the story that might not otherwise engage with it.
So the VR there, but we've also got a prototype of a video game. Again, it's a kind of serious video game where you go into the shoes of the accuser. And it's just trying understand the moral choices and why people accused, not just to understand the accused, but understand the accuser and why these things happen. So that's the video game.
And then there's a bespoke animation. We got a local all women animation studio in Belfast to create a 14 minute animation, which I scripted on it. And that is actually in the VR app, but I think you can access that through the website, as well. And the graphic novel, as well. And we got local people, and we got staff and students Adam Melvin and Brian Coyle and Sabrina Minter. They were working on the computer game. And Adam was working on the score, so he has come up with an original score for the VR.
Lastly no, we're doing a lot of workshops as well. So we're doing creative writing workshops, we're doing printing workshops, but we're also putting on a play called Witches in Eden. And this is produced by Dr. Lisa Fitzpatrick, Ulster University, Victoria and myself.
And it's involving staff and students, and Witches in Eden was written in 1948, just before The Crucible, and it actually contains a lot of the tropes of The Crucible, by Olga Fielden, who was a Belfast based playwright. And it's never been put on since I think 1951. And I wrote about that in Representing Magic, the 22 book, as a kind of idea of exploring the cultural representations and the afterlife of the Islandmagee trial. But, Victoria had a great idea. Why don't we put it on and, so it'll be on, in the Riverside Theatre at the end of October in Coleraine in Northern Ireland. The exhibition is in Carrickfergus, and that is on the ninth, and it runs to the 16th of November, 2023. There's a big launch in the 16th.
The great thing about it, so the exhibition space right, is across the road from where the trial happened. Touching distance.
[00:51:10] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
Wow.
[00:51:13] Andrew Sneddon: So, yeah. And you can see more about it on the website. We're working with other people who work in memorialization, as well, the University of Highland and Island working with RAGI and other people who, who have worked on, how to memorialize in different ways, not just through plaques, but through digital and creative technologies and storytelling.
[00:51:34] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a creative way to present the story to this generation of people. Use all the technology that's available and it's like you've covered every form of media that you can, basically.
[00:51:53] Andrew Sneddon: It is been quite thorough, but it was organic. We didn't go right. We're doing everything right,
[00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: yeah,
[00:51:58] Andrew Sneddon: but, but we work in a university with such talented people like Brian and Adam and Sabrina and Victoria and Helen and Shannon Devlin and the history department, as well, and Lisa Fitzpatrick, all these people who are so good at what they do. And if they come together and we work as a team, it's amazing what you can achieve.
[00:52:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm hoping it serves as an example for other locations where there were witch trials.
[00:52:25] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And so you don't go down the Disney World of war, aspect, you know that some places are, over commercialization, certain that with respect, and the historical aspects we respect as well, that there were real people with descendants that are still around.
[00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Speaking of the commercialization, you were recently in Salem actually, weren't you?
[00:52:51] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I've been before and to be honest, the first time I went I was more kinda whoa than the second time, yeah, I was doing a kind of tour, so we went, Victoria and I went Steilneset Monument, monument in Vardo in Norway in winter, which was mad at the Arctic in winter.
[00:53:12] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
[00:53:13] Andrew Sneddon: and that was absolutely beautiful and, in the snow and in it, so well done, just look it up if you don't know about it, is to 91 people executed in that region, Finnmark in the 17th century, mostly women, some indigenous people as well, and then going to Salem as well, where the history, you've got the kinda big set pieces of the memorialization, but the history otherwise is fighting to get out.
[00:53:45] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:53:46] Andrew Sneddon: So you're, you are looking for the history, and I love them in memorials. And I and I like the most recent one, is it 2016? That was erected. I didn't see that the first time I went, but I've seen that and I think the all got their, the all get their they're good points.
I do think the memorialization is very good and I do like them, and they're very important, especially in that context, you've got a statue to Samantha from Bewitched.
[00:54:13] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yes. There's a statue of her, just like a block or two away from the first memorial to the witch trial victims. Yeah, it's interesting juxtaposition there, the history and the modern.
[00:54:31] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. That's why I haven't tried, a disentangle, and we just discussed it there, the kind of, what happened and the way it's been represented and the way it's used, and I think that you can be creative with it. And I think you can, I don't think you, you can, you have to say the historians just know the the story because we've read the documents, now on the website, I've put every document for the Islandmagee trial. I've digitized them. They're all there for you. But it's more than that. And we've included them in the exhibition as well.
But it's more than that, and that's why we've got the workshops, the storytelling, and the printmaking. People can make their own histories, and we shouldn't try to have ownership completely as historians of these stories. So that is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying sometimes the representations that you know are not all positive, and and the commercialization aspect that are not all positive.
[00:55:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, but a lot of those attractions, they do get people's attention. It's just somebody has to come in and say, set the record straight at some point.
[00:55:40] Andrew Sneddon: The thing is as well, what happens is what, 2,500 executing Scottish history and 38 in American history, but most popular consciousness would say, what's the big witch trial? What do they think of Salem And that, I was talking to somebody the other day when we were actually launching something and yeah, they were absolutely gobsmacked. And I says, yeah, there was more people executed in one car park in Perth in Scotland than the whole of Salem. And that has only been righted now in the last two years with this new kind of campaign. And for the, I didn't, I'm Scottish I'm from Glasgow. I did not hear of any of this growing up. I didn't know there was any witches in Scotland. But I think that's changing as well. That kind of, and then that's the power of representation. That's the power of cultural representation and what a leaves out and what puts in.
[00:56:32] Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable that you can grow up and not hear about these things. And there were just so many in Scotland. We hear that from people in places like Connecticut in the US where there were witch trials and people just don't know that they happened. You grow up, you go to school there, and they never talk about it. But for a whole nation like Scotland to just turn its back on the memory. That's really something.
[00:57:03] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. Again, forgetting, so it's we're putting it behind us. It was a bad time. We were one of the first enlightened countries in Europe. We were the home of moral philosophers and Adam Smith, Glasgow University, and Edinburgh University, and St. Andrews. We're not all about witches. The people who were writing history in the 20th century perhaps, no interest in that either, 'cause it's ordinary people.
[00:57:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw that with Connecticut. A lot of the antiquarians in the 19th century wanted to show the state in a good light, and so they would poke fun at Massachusetts and say that we never had anything like that here. They did.
[00:57:47] Andrew Sneddon: That's exactly what was happening in Ireland, yeah. Putting distance between I, Owen and Davis does it brilliantly in America Bewitched, is putting distance between, the past and ourselves, and using it as an oppositional tool regionally, as well. look at.
[00:58:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. They did that in the States with Salem before the American Civil War. The southern states were poking fun at the northern states for having witch trials. And yeah, you just use it as this political thing later on, and then today, of course witch-hunt has become just a real political metaphor that's used, I would say way too often.
[00:58:30] Andrew Sneddon: You've had Marion Gibson on talking, and she brilliantly showed the kind of misogynistic aspects of The Crucible. And arguably, the Crucible brought forth that idea of the witch-hunt as politic, getting rid of your rivals, and it's used a lot of the times, I think, misogynistically today by men who you know are accused, of all sorts, but accusing his accusers using that, which is doubly insulting, I, I don't like modern appropriation of the word witch-hunt, because as your whole podcast shows, it's so complex even to appropriate it at all. It's so reductive. But to appropriate it in that way is particularly bad, I think.
[00:59:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And there's still people dying in literal witch hunts. And then you're gonna use that as a political thing and say, no, I'm a victim here. You're not.
[00:59:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And it's usually the worst type of people who are using it.
[00:59:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes,
[00:59:30] Andrew Sneddon: I'm.
[00:59:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. The ones who are guilty as sin. Yeah.
So I definitely encourage everybody to go check out that exhibit. I really wish that I could be there to see it myself. It sounds amazing. So many different aspects coming together to really immerse people in this.
[00:59:56] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely.
[00:59:57] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

[01:00:07] Mary Bingham: For me, the most important reason to memorialize is to remember. We memorialize a loved one or an event through the preservation of memories, perhaps sharing stories, looking at a scrapbook, listening to a compilation of that person's favorite music, erecting a burial monument. Creating a celebration of life ceremony.
No matter what we do to memorialize a person, group, or people and or event, we keep their legacy alive. When I first started to roam Essex County in search of my ancestors, I looked for their burial sites to visit their graves, to pay my respects, and to thank them for their decisions which caused me to be alive today. I still do that from time to time. Then they wanted to find where they lived, how they lived, where they walked, discover their experiences, funny, odd, different, wonderful, and sad. It was during this part of my journey, which led me to stand where some of my ancestors were hanged to death in the area of Proctor's ledge at Salem Mass in British America, 1692. A simple, beautiful, and important memorial was built and dedicated at that site on July 19th, 2017, so that the area would no longer be lost to history.
Now, descendants can visit from time to time to pay their respects. Another beautiful memorial was dedicated 25 years prior to Proctor's ledge in 1992, and is located in Salem abutting the Charter Street Cemetery. 20 beautiful stone benches are attached to a stone wall lined with beautiful trees and historic homes for descendants and many visitors to sit and contemplate the lives of those whose names are engraved on each of those benches who were executed in 1692.
However, my favorite memorial to the victims at Salem is the monument that was also erected in 1992 and is located on Hobart Street in current day Danvers, Mass. The beautiful life-sized stone monument is in two parts. The front displays the Book of Life with a replica of the iron shackles that accused would have worn while in prison. The back displays the Puritan Minister. The one thing that stands out is that this is the only monument that lists the 25 names of the people who died as a result of the Salem Witch Hunts that year, the 20 that were executed and the five who died in jail. Not only that, but also engraved are the powerful statements that the accused said during their pretrial examinations. It is a wonderful way to contemplate their lives, offer a glimpse into their horrifying experience, and share lessons on how we can learn from history.
And here are all their names. Infant daughter of Sarah Good died in prison before June. Sarah Osborne died in the Boston Prison May 10th, Bridget Bishop hanged June 10th, Roger Toothaker died in the Boston Prison June 16th, Sarah Good hanged July 19th, Susanna Martin hanged july 19th. Elizabeth Howe hanged July 19th. Sarah Wildes hanged july 19th. Rebecca Nurse hanged July 19th. George Burroughs hanged August 19th. George Jacobs, Sr. hanged August 19th. Martha Carrier hanged August 19th. John Proctor hanged August 19th. John Willard hanged August 19th. Giles Corey died under torture September 19th. Martha Corey hanged september 22nd. Mary Esty hanged September 22nd, Mary Parker hanged September 22nd, Alice Parker hanged September 22nd, Ann Pudeator hanged September 22nd, Wilmot Redd hanged September 22nd, Margaret Scott hanged september 22nd, Samuel Wardwell hanged September 22nd, Ann Foster died in prison December 3rd. Lydia Dustin died in prison March 10th, 1693. Rest in peace. You'll never be forgotten.
May those who suffered a similar fate at Ireland in 1711 also rest in peace. Thank you.

[01:05:08] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:05:10] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[01:05:20] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch-hunt memorials and commemorations serve as enduring tangible reminders. They provide comfort and solace and education. We can touch the cool, solid surface of a monument like we are reaching out and connecting with witch trial victims of the past, even though they're no longer physically present. Tributes like historical fiction, coffees named in honor of a witch trial victim, stone and metal monuments, and arts that teach and commemorate, like Salem by Ballet Des Moines, the play Prick, the play The Last Night, the play Saltonstall's Trial, the play Witches in Eden, the Echoes of the Witch photographic documentary, and multimedia museum and online exhibits like w1711.org, are a lasting witness of the impact these lives had on the world. You can listen to previous episodes to learn more about each of these projects. I hope the w1711.org project brings you to reflection, contemplation, and advocacy action.
September brings cooler temperatures, crisp, warm colors in nature, and a season of anticipated festivities, like fall festivals that hold meaningful rituals, well-planned get togethers and individual and group celebrations across the earth.
We are moving into the final quarter of the year and considering and planning for what lies ahead after December. What lies ahead for thousands of vulnerable world citizens is experiencing unjust violence due to excited sorcery accusations inside their communities. When individuals are branded as a witch and blamed for causing harm with witchcraft, their actual safety and life is in danger, and it often comes at the hand of their own families and neighbors. Please learn more about the advocacy that is happening around the world by going to our show notes and finding links to advocacy groups.
Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.

[01:08:07] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:08:09] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:08:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:08:15] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:08:17] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:08:20] Sarah Jack: See what's going on at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:08:23] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and everyone that you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[01:08:31] Sarah Jack: Support the global efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

September 7, 2023

Prick: A Play of the Scottish Witch Trials

Prick, a new play by Laurie Flanigan Hegge, directed by Meggie Grievell

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Show Notes

Writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling speak about their new play production Prick. Prick is inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign and tells the story of folk who were victims of the terrible miscarriage of justice of the witch trials in Scotland. The story of Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. This special conversation is a reflection of the evocative, poetic, and satirical way artistic work can deliver a relevant and critical message about our history and human experience.

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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Today we're here with the makers of the play Prick, which is now showing at Edinburgh Fringe. We are talking to writer Laurie Flanigan Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling.
[00:00:46] Sarah Jack: Prick is a satirical play about Scottish witch trials.
[00:00:50] Josh Hutchinson: Features stories of three witch trial victims, including an unknown woman, Marioun Twedy, and Isobel [00:01:00] Gowdie.
[00:01:00] Sarah Jack: There's difficult topics dealt with in the story, like pricking and shaving and watching of the alleged witches, and it's really an important part of understanding what thousands of women went through a few centuries ago.
[00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: Puppetry is employed throughout. The art of the puppets is masterful, and how they're used in the scenes really brings life to the settings, and the puppets help make uncomfortable topics more comfortable. It's a quite enjoyable play. There's dark comedic elements to it, and it's got the devil himself.
[00:01:48] Sarah Jack: Laurie, Meggie, and Madeline have a great conversation with us about how this play came together, the significance.
[00:01:59] Josh Hutchinson: A [00:02:00] lot of the themes of the play are very relevant today, including the ever present element of misogyny in the witch trials and in women's lives these days, also. And so you learn about the double meaning of the name Prick, why they chose that name.
[00:02:25] Sarah Jack: In this conversation, they share some things that you're not gonna get from just attending the play, so this is a really great opportunity to understand the layers. Here is a special conversation about Prick, which was written by Laurie, directed by Meggie, with puppets created by Madeline.
[00:02:48] Josh Hutchinson: What brought your creation team and performance team together?
[00:02:53] Meggie Greivell: So I reached out to Laurie last summer with [00:03:00] the hopes of writing a play about the Scottish Witch Trials, because it had piqued my interest since I moved to Scotland in 2021. I found out about the North Berwick Witch Trials, and I was very shocked and angered. And I'm graduating with my master's in directing soon. And this project is my directing thesis. I needed a play that was a new work, and I reached out to Laurie, because I'd worked with her before at the History Theatre in St. Paul, Minnesota. And I really loved her writing. And she said yes, she was interested in writing this play, and that's how we began. And Laurie, do you wanna take it from there?
[00:03:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was interesting, because when Meggie asked me to do it, it was at a point where I had been, is the word fallow? When you don't have, you haven't been writing or like it, it had been a very fallow time for me, and I was just so happy to have a project to explore, but [00:04:00] I didn't know how to get into this project at first. The subject was so huge, and once I started researching, I felt pretty daunted by kind of the scope of it and a little bit nervous about the fact that I'm an American playwright who has, at that point I hadn't been to Scotland and I didn't really understand the history.
[00:04:21] And then as things clicked along in my research, things started coming together in my brain. My introduction to this piece was through listening to modern media, which is podcasts. I was listening to your podcast and Witches of Scotland podcast and getting to know all of the amazing writers and historians and researchers through their own words.
[00:04:49] And as time went on, I got more and more immersed in the understanding of the witch trials and how things connected. And I'm still right now [00:05:00] working on understanding what's happening in the modern world, which I was just saying, Sarah, that I had listened recently to your episode about Papua New Guinea, and it was, came for me at a very timely moment in my own understanding of just how our modern world is expressing this same horror that the women in this play lived through. But you'll notice in the play that media and the, kicking off with news of Scotland and my little kind of twisted take on that it is directly related to my relationship to media and the subject of the witch trials and the spread of witchcraft through the modern world.
[00:05:40] Sarah Jack: And did you guys plan on incorporating puppetry?
[00:05:45] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I would say right out of the gate I knew that I had the title Prick before I had anything else. When I heard about witch prickers I was, I said, "Meggie, I'd like to call it Prick." And she said, "yes, please do." And I knew that I wanted pricking [00:06:00] and the pricker to be a theme of the play but that I did not want to ask any actor or audience member to be subjected to seeing any kind of torture or harm inflicted on a body on stage.
[00:06:17] And so from the gate, I said, I'd like to incorporate puppets. And by the way, my neighbor across the street is a puppet artist that I've been dying to work with. That's Madeline Helling. She's with us today. And I told Meggie I wanted to use puppets. She gave me a wholehearted endorsement and Madeline was immediately part of the process. Madeline, do you wanna say anything about that?
[00:06:41] Madeline: Oh yeah, just Laurie said, "I have this project, it's about the witch trials." And I, yeah, it was an easy yes, easy thing to say yes to. The theme and working with Laurie and then doing this in Scotland was very exciting. Yeah, and Minneapolis is a really vibrant puppet community, so [00:07:00] I've had a lot of amazing experience working with a lot of amazing people here. That helped me gain some skills to do that.
[00:07:09] Josh Hutchinson: That's interesting. I didn't know that about Minneapolis.
[00:07:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, it's a hotbed actually. There's a large puppet community and the, so the vocabulary of using puppets is something that I'm really familiar with as a theater artist, and I think, because of that vocabulary, and Meggie has lived in the Twin Cities too. We know, we all understand like what a puppet can mean in terms of emotion and how evocative a puppet can be. It's like a musical element. Does that jive with what you would say, Madeline, that there's a lyricism to using puppets?
[00:07:41] Madeline: Yeah, I think it's just a language understood the world over and it's a street language that like, it's just, it's a cheap art form that is, there's roots in it all over the world. And in that way it has this sort of universality to it. And there's this way that [00:08:00] puppets, like everything they do has to be articulated. And in that way it can draw a little more focus and attention on certain elements, physical elements like breath is an action in a purposeful way, which is, I feel like for this play, for Prick it makes so much sense to have puppets in it.
[00:08:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: We also wanted to incorporate aspects of the world, of the other world, the familiars. and. When I said to Madeline, "I'd like a fox, a jackdaw," immediately that was possible and shape-shifting is possible. And it did organically change. My first draft, I think, Meggie, I said that there were puppets attached to bodies on stage, and that was just my first thought about it. And it evolved into the design that Madeline brought to us. But yeah, Meggie, I don't know. What did you think when I said puppets right away? You never seemed to fight that.
[00:08:55] Meggie Greivell: I jumped right in. I was gonna say puppets are also [00:09:00] having, I think, a golden age in theater right now. In the UK they are, I think in the US they are, too. But in the UK, especially, with shows like a Warhorse that was, took over the West End and the Life of Pi right now has just won so many Tony Awards. The puppet artists and the tiger won a Tony Award. It was the first ever puppeteers to win a Tony Award, the seven actors that play the tiger.
[00:09:28] I'd never done it before, and I thought this sounds like a great opportunity to learn and for all of the student actors to learn, as well. And also I knew that it would help tell our story that we wanna tell, especially with The Accused puppet and not wanting to show a woman being tortured on stage. But also The Accused has become this really powerful symbol for women not having control over their own bodies during the witch trials.[00:10:00] And I think puppets bring magic to the theater. Like they belong in the theater and on the street, as you say, Madeline.
[00:10:09] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It's interesting that we discovered the disassociation that people experience when they're experiencing trauma is personified by having the characters in our play talking about what happens. But it's embodied by The Accused, our puppet that we call The Accused. And so that was a very organic discovery that felt totally right. When we observed what that disassociation looked like on stage, it felt, like, oh my gosh, yes. It just felt really central to the whole premise of the piece. And we were working really quickly in conceiving and creating this piece. It was a beautiful discovery that felt completely in alignment with what we were trying to do with the piece.
[00:10:49] Meggie Greivell: And all of the audiences have been responding really strongly to all the puppets, and they understand the symbolism of The Accused immediately. [00:11:00] We've had really, really powerful responses about that and the familiar puppets as well.
[00:11:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So in the piece we have three different women who are called into what we call a liminal space, and when they get there, they are conjured into the space by the ensemble, and they are facing off with the pricker character. And in that space, The Accused appears. And so when the women are conjured and they are representing their own, this kind of core character, The Accused is with them.
[00:11:35] Meggie Greivell: The Accused represents all three of the women, but also each of them individually, as well.
[00:11:42] Josh Hutchinson: Can you talk about what pricking is?
[00:11:46] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: ah, pricking.
[00:11:47] Meggie Greivell: Yes.
[00:11:48] So pricking in Scotland during the Witch Craft Act, there were witch prickers who were employed to prick and torture the women. So there, there [00:12:00] actually were witch prickers. But the play also has a beautiful double entendre. Pricking symbolizes women being pricked with misogyny, as well.
[00:12:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So the witch picker would use an instrument or a tool to search for a spot on the woman's body that wouldn't bleed. Witch prickers weren't part of every single trial, but they came and went in the Scottish Witch Trials, and they were sometimes charlatans, brutal. Women would be shaved, stripped, and searched and pricked with an iron rod, looking for a place on their body that wouldn't bleed. And if it was found or falsely found, it was stated that was where the devil's mark was.
[00:12:47] Meggie Greivell: And they were paid very well to do this, and they're very respected in the community.
[00:12:55] Josh Hutchinson: I would say for our audience, a [00:13:00] similar thing happened when they would have a group of women, a jury of women search a female suspect the body looking for witches' teets. That's what they were looking for at Salem and other American trials, and they didn't use the torture method of pricking along, but if they found an insensitive place, sometimes they would stick a needle through it to see if it drained any fluid. And yeah, they would just check for insensitive locations that stood out as unusual.
[00:13:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: To think that a person would be touched in this way. And I, I think it's interesting that prickers in Scotland and the witch trials had their eras. It wasn't consistent throughout, but prickers would show up.
[00:13:57] One of the characters in our play, Marion Twedy [00:14:00] was pricked and actually that I found her in the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft database. And it so happens that she had two really interesting, compelling things about her case, one that she was pricked and one that she never confessed. But in her pricking, they did discover the devil's mark. We don't know what that was, but we know that she was pricked and that without a confession, the mark that was found on her was enough to end her life.
[00:14:31] Josh Hutchinson: Terrible. We, Sarah and I have ancestors who were examined that way in the Salem witch trials, not with the pricking but with the close inspection of their secret parts. And teets were found, and they said, "get some more experienced women over here." But for the pricking, it's just extremely invasive and misogynist to have a man doing that to a [00:15:00] woman. That just is so brutal. I can hardly imagine it.
[00:15:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The fact that sometimes the pricking instrument was a fake instrument that was enough to condemn a woman was that's not something we addressed in Prick. There was a lot I couldn't address just because the play is a one act play, but it did give a character a line, "you're pricking me now with every word," and to me that is that is the thread that Meggie was talking about earlier about the misogyny piece. Not every woman was pricked, but we all know what it feels like to be pricked in some way. And I'm not suggesting that the kind of pricking that these women underwent was in any way comparable to the pricks I felt in my life, because it's not the same, but that kind of image is resonant for all of us, I think.
[00:15:51] Sarah Jack: Absolutely.
[00:15:52] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I asked Madeline to create different size prickers, too, so that each character is met with an [00:16:00] instrument that gets bigger and bigger as the piece proceeds. So it starts out as a normal size, and then she plays with scale. So by the end, we see that this pricker is like the boogeyman is holding this pricker, and it's a little bit more universal.
[00:16:13] Josh Hutchinson: Such a powerful image.
[00:16:16] Madeline: And you just wonder at one point the person instigating or physically doing the harm disassociate themselves. So when we were like working through that piece in the show, that pricking object, like we just worked with the power that object held a bit, which was an, I dunno, it's just an interesting exercise, those elements and objects of torture.
[00:16:49] Josh Hutchinson: It's amazing to me that anybody made it through without confessing.
[00:16:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Zoe and Claire on the Witches of Scotland podcast, they talk about that a lot and [00:17:00] the whole thing about Scotland doesn't torture. It's like there was no torture in Scotland. It's just such a ridiculous thing to suggest that's not torture. I would've confessed for sure I wouldn't have been able to take that pain. That's how I think. Maybe I'm wrong, but.
[00:17:14] Meggie Greivell: And Marion Twedy, did you, I can't remember if you said this earlier, but the character, Marion, our play, she did not confess, and we have that in the play. She's one of the women who did not confess, which is just so unimaginable to think about that.
[00:17:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have cases where the interrogation itself was intimidating enough to get a confession without the added physical duress, and it's just a marvel to me that anybody got through that process and even lived to be tried.
[00:17:56] Sarah Jack: Does the play open with a strong start [00:18:00] or do you ease the audience into things?
[00:18:02] Meggie Greivell: I would say it opens with a strong start.
[00:18:05] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It opens with it well, some audience members have described it as a chant or an incantation. But it starts with a list of communities around Scotland and one of our actors, she's from the Isle of Skye, and she said, "oh, this sounds like a walking song," and she came up with the song to go along with it. So it comes across as this really beautiful kind of chant, and then it's followed by an incantation welcoming the women into the space.
[00:18:33] Meggie Greivell: It's a very haunting song. And we were using, Laurie wrote a heartbeat into the script and we organically discovered this, I found this very large stick at a store called Pound Savers, which is like the dollar store. And in the rehearsal room we discovered that it made a really great heartbeat sound, and that's in the song [00:19:00] and throughout the play, as well.
[00:19:02] But it's become a symbol as well for a broomstick, as well as other types of domestic things, like a butter churn. And we also learned this was a happy discovery, coincidence, but also works really well with the play that in Scotland, a lot of the ministers and commissioners that were involved in the trials, they used questioning sticks. In the opening song, it sounds almost like a sea shanty or like this haunting folk song. And Laurie's written all these really beautiful words and incorporated in the Scottish cities where the witch trials happened into the song.
[00:19:42] Josh Hutchinson: What stood out to me about the opening song is just how long the list of those cities is, the communities where witch trials happened. It's dozens of places.
[00:19:56] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And yet it's still not comprehensive, right? That was my fear. What did I leave [00:20:00] out? And even now as I'm talking about things that are happening, as I'm trying to wrap my mind about where things are happening in the world, I feel like, again, not comprehensive to understand where modern witch hunts are happening. Just everywhere yet in between is how I got through that as a writer.
[00:20:19] Meggie Greivell: And that's one of the lyrics in the song as well.
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: You talked about one of the women who's a victim who's in the play. Who are the other main characters whose story's being told?
[00:20:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The first is an unknown woman, which was very intentional. I was really struck by the sundry witches and all the people whose names are lost. And so she was really the first woman to be conjured in my mind and also to be conjured into this world of this play. And she doesn't know who she is, which is part of her journey.
[00:20:59] [00:21:00] She arrives in on the scene and is confused. She's come back, because she's looking for her baby, her bairn, and doesn't find her baby there. And she tries to leave, and they pull her back in. And we call her the unknown woman. She's an individual, but she represents many of the sundry witches who have no stone, no memorial, and no way of knowing who they are, erased by time.
[00:21:27] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie writes very beautifully into the unknown woman's language that she has no stone. That's a through line throughout all of her scene.
[00:21:39] Sarah Jack: So many elements of this work are just so incredible. I was so thrilled to see this aspect that you put into the story, because the unnamed, for the reasons that you just mentioned, but there's so many we don't know their name. You think about like with this specific [00:22:00] unnamed woman, she didn't know who she was. It's so striking, because before they're accused and examined, these women felt very confident, possibly some did, from testimonies you read, they're confident they're not a witch, they're confident that they're clear before God. And there's other historical unnamed individuals that are memorialized.
[00:22:26] And then I think of when we were working on our exoneration legislation in Connecticut this past year. There is an unnamed person in some records, but the politicians didn't include it in the final draft that individual who could have represented so many, who could have been a symbol for these women like your unnamed is, she was removed from that legislation, and that was so disappointing to me. I [00:23:00] am so thrilled to see that a part of your message.
[00:23:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's heartbreaking. The fact that we don't know who she was doesn't change the fact that she existed. I think this is what's so important about memorialization, too, is that marking someone's life acknowledges, it's like how we all wanna feel seen, right? I wanna feel seen. You wanna feel seen. To be unseen and to be invisible is another insult. And then for, I think for these women who were Christian women, to not be given a Christian burial, at least in their own understanding of the world as they know it, they're not seen in the world, in the afterlife, in the way that they wanted to be seen. That's an aspect for her, too, that she's stuck in purgatory or whatever it is, the liminal space.
[00:23:45] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie used the Scottish Witchcraft database to get information for the three accused women in the play. And we learned that there are thousands of unnamed in the [00:24:00] records here. So it's a lot really.
[00:24:04] Josh Hutchinson: I found the line in the play about the and sundry witches were killed so powerful, because it shows how little these women were valued. You don't even deserve to have a name, like you're just erased entirely.
[00:24:26] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I think we included the definition. Our version of this play has three men who play various roles, and then three women who play various roles, plus each having their own individual women. But the chorus of men says sundry witches confessed. And one of the women says, "sundry: definition, various items not important enough to be mentioned individually." And that's what it comes down to. It's you're not important enough for us to know who you were.
[00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Our listeners here will be familiar with a lot of the women who are just known as Goodwife or Goody, [00:25:00] because their first name, nobody bothered to record that. They just recorded that they were the wife of so-and-so and the man mattered, but the woman who was the actual target, her name didn't matter. So yeah, it's very moving.
[00:25:20] Sarah Jack: I also think it's a recognition of the modern victims that we're just getting to know. We know of such a small fraction of the individual cases. So here today, there are unnamed victims.
[00:25:36] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, and I think it's hard for people when you don't have a name or a story to attach to something to actually hang their understanding on what happened. If it's oh, this woman, this happened to this woman or these women, versus knowing the names of people who are going through this trauma, that's a completely different thing. It's like a personification in a way. [00:26:00] Sundry objectifies people. It makes them into just another witch, when it's an individual who has a story and a life and a history and a family and a living, breathing identity.
[00:26:11] Madeline: It is incredible the power that language has here in dehumanizing. That's actually like what my college thesis was about, our language and use of the words torture and terrorism around like torture tactics used, created by the US government, used in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. And dehumanization that happens to each of those individuals and the things that are defined as torture and those that are not, and those are, that are defined politically and have ramifications of teeth attached to them. It's really interesting what happens when certain words are attached to things and then a whole people become numb to the realities of what that means, of the people behind those [00:27:00] things, or the victims.
[00:27:00] Josh Hutchinson: And there's more than just the pricking in the play. There's also the watching, which was another form of torture. Can you talk to us a little about the watching?
[00:27:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's really interesting, because one of the things that we discovered in the writing of the piece was that the cast was really interested in kind of understanding what it meant to be watching, too. And you may have noticed that a character who is just a general farmer becomes a watcher, and he has this really beautiful arc throughout the piece.
[00:27:36] That's, those are his words. He was talking about how he felt about playing this role, that his character had an arc. He went from being an accuser to a watcher to the spouse of a victim and essentially a nonbeliever at the end in God or the devil. But that watching piece, people were paid to [00:28:00] watch women, keep them awake, keep them from falling asleep. Sleep deprivation was a a form of getting a confession, and they, the people who were, the women and their families were paying for the candles that the watchers were using. They were paying the salaries of the watchers. This is another weird aspect of the economics of it, is that it got turned back to the families at the end. You, this is your bill for what your witch costs our community.
[00:28:28] You were just asking about the watchers, but it's a bigger answer. We were really curious about what it was like to be responsible for inflicting this on someone else. Our watcher walks into the room and sees his wife in a witch's bridal, which was a way of keeping a woman awake, keeping her tongue from being able to talk and a terrible torture device. And that's bridal is on our puppet, the accused. And I think people respond to that in a way that's really shocked. [00:29:00] Even though you know it's not on a person. It's very evocative.
[00:29:04] Josh Hutchinson: So the watching we're talking about, you would sit a woman in the middle of a room and have somebody keep them awake for days on end, and they're looking to see if a familiar or imp comes to feed while they're watching, so the witnesses can confirm that the suspect has had a contract with the devil.
[00:29:33] And they did that also in England. Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General, is known for doing that. And there's at least one case in New England that's documented of Margaret Jones of Charlestown. She was watched in this way.
[00:29:49] But in your play, I know the characters are awake for untold hours and days, [00:30:00] and at that point, you're just delirious, and who knows what you're seeing even to get a confession out of you at that point, doesn't seem like it might be the most accurate confession that you're gonna get, but it's what they wanted to hear is what the person would say.
[00:30:18] Madeline: Important to note that in Scotland at the time, torture was illegal and known to produce inaccurate information. So there was that piece of recognition there, on the books in Scotland as the official way of the land. And then the reality of the witch trial.
[00:30:38] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And what do they say? It takes 48 hours before you start hallucinating when you're sleep deprived. Or I hope I'm getting that when I was just in Edinburgh last week, somebody was talking about that, that you are not a reliable witness after being awake for 48 hours. And there is records of a lot of these people being kept awake for days at a time, like you said.
[00:30:59] [00:31:00] I took the perspective that a person who was kept awake like this would do anything to make it stop. That is part of this piece, as you mentioned, but it's a thread that goes through every single trial that we read about the sleep deprivation.
[00:31:13] Meggie Greivell: And it was often the accused family members or friends or neighbors who were doing the watching, which I find like just so incredibly harrowing. That's with all of the witch trials. I know that was something that happened where neighbors had to be complacent, and that's the something that just really disturbs me so much, and I think Laurie wrote that so beautifully.
[00:31:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: These really small communities, everybody knows each other, right? They're accusing people they know, they're watching people they know, and they're executing people they know.
[00:31:49] Meggie Greivell: Yeah.
[00:31:51] Josh Hutchinson: And you do see that with the modern day witchcraft persecutions, as well. The [00:32:00] accusation often comes from within the family, and it's just so extra tragic that it's somebody that you know and you trust turns against you.
[00:32:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The third woman that's conjured into our space is probably the most famous of all the Scottish witches, Isobel Gowdie. And she was the last character to come to me. What we love about Isobel Gowdie is how much agency she has in her confessions, or seems to have in her confessions and what she means to people now, that she represents somebody with power.
[00:32:37] And as we were creating this piece, Meggie asked for a powerful character to come into the, this realm. And she was the obvious choice. I wanted to be really careful about how I present her, because I know she has so much meaning to so many people, right? And there's a lot that's unknown about her, [00:33:00] but her confessions are long and interesting and curious and awesome in a way.
[00:33:07] They're just such interesting documents, but we really don't know how she got to those confessions. We don't know if she was pricked or not. There was a pricker in the area, and yet there's no record of the pricker being part of her trial. There's nothing sure about whether she was watched or kept awake. We don't have that information, but we know what she said and it's so interesting. So she was fun to write, and she's, I think Lisa McIntyre, who plays her in this production, really enjoys the power and the fact that she's a bit of a baddy. She gets to speak truth to power and own her own story in a way that the other characters don't, Isobel.
[00:33:49] Meggie Greivell: Laurie and I talked about how we made the choice to give her power back because Laurie was saying, we don't, [00:34:00] nobody knows why she said all things that she said, or if it was really just the ministers and the investigators putting words into her mouth or making these things up or if it was from sleep deprivation.
[00:34:12] But we've made the decision to have her kind of take her power back and say, "no, I did do these things. I did turn into a jackdaw and attacked the pricker."
[00:34:24] Josh Hutchinson: What are some of the other things that she confessed to?
[00:34:28] Meggie Greivell: Part of it though, is she did turn into a lot of different animals.
[00:34:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: She did say she did a lot of shape shifting. So Isobel Gowdie, her confessions are pretty remarkable. She says things across a huge gamut, like she's confessed to mixing the body of an unchristian child with nail trimmings, grain, and colewort. I'm reading this right now from the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft, but she said she chopped it all up and used it to take away the fruit of a man's corn. Just think about that, [00:35:00] chopping up unchristian child with nail clippings.
[00:35:02] It's ah this flying in a straw broom was a thread that we see the witch on a straw broom. That was a, an Isobel Gowdie kind of a one of her biggies. She talked about elf shot. She would fly around and use elf shot, flick it with her thumb, and kill people to send a soul to heaven, but the body remained on Earth, according to her confessions. Talked about meeting the queen of the fairies, taking away milk, doing things in the devil's name. She said she um, destroyed, let's see, she made an image of the laird of Park to destroy his children, and she went into great detail about how she did this. She confessed a lot to shape changing jackdaws, cat, hare, and we really play with that shape changing aspect in our show. I could go on and on, but she's got a lot of really specific things. And she had four, I think four sets of interviews or [00:36:00] interrogations, and she got more and more specific with each one.
[00:36:02] Sarah Jack: I was thinking about some of the New England witch trials, and there's actually some of the afflicted girls either in Connecticut or in Massachusetts had very detailed accusations. I don't know if there's anything quite that detail coming out of New England in the record from an accused.
[00:36:24] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, incredibly detailed. She talked about her specific ritual acts, shape changing, using magic, things she did at the Kirk of Auldearn, communal sex with the devil. That was one. He had sex with her whole coven. And meeting and dancing with her coven. She talked about the fairies. She hit the greatest hits of everything. And she gave them all the information that they wanted to have.
[00:36:53] She explicitly said that the devil rebaptized her as Janet, that she had sex with him, [00:37:00] and that his member was great and long, and that younger women had greater pleasure in sex with the devil than with their own husbands. The idea of sex with the devil was really important to the Scottish witch trial confession logs that they would put together. And we also play with that a little bit in our show, that whole thing of this obsession with sex, which is fascinating to me, but also just strange.
[00:37:27] Sarah Jack: We learned of some of that this fall when we talked to Mary Craig, that was really where I was introduced to what a big part of that history it is.
[00:37:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Your interview with Mary Craig was one of my favorite interviews. She was a great resource.
[00:37:47] Sarah Jack: You had a couple lines that the devil said that I loved, and the first is, "I get the credit and I don't have to do any of the work." And [00:38:00] I also, I thought it sounded just like him to say, "I've been here a while. You were nay paying me mind."
[00:38:06] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was fun to write for the devil. It was fun to write that character. And I have to be reminded that for in this world, that the devil was absolutely real. The fact that I personally don't believe that the devil exists doesn't matter. These characters believed that the devil existed, and it was a great and real threat. And that's the first thing that when I'm talking to modern people about this play, that they're like, "oh, really?" But the devil was a threat.
[00:38:36] Josh Hutchinson: They didn't just believe in the devil. They believed that he was roaming around physically as a person and luring people over to his side to sign contracts with them, which I found interesting in the symbolism in Scotland of someone [00:39:00] becoming the devil's with the touching of the head and the foot. I found that to be very interesting also.
[00:39:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And claiming everything in between.
[00:39:10] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
[00:39:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I believe that was in Isobel's confession, as well, if I'm not mistaken.
[00:39:18] Josh Hutchinson: I think that I read that in that scene. Where she says she's be been baptized as Janet. Yeah. Which I love the Janet and Janet show, because those names, I've listened to all of Witches of Scotland, and Janet and Jonet just come up again and again in the Scottish witch trials.
[00:39:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, that's where I got that.
[00:39:43] And it was also a happy accident that our actor who plays Janet in the Janet and Janet scene plays Isobel Gowdie and says, "no, I am Janet. You'll call me Janet." And so that was just another kind of discovery of another added layer of something cool.
[00:39:58] Josh Hutchinson: Another [00:40:00] theme in there is the labeling of women as quarrelsome dames. And you took that from the reality.
[00:40:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: There was a lot to mine. And I think that as a woman of my time, I relate to that a lot. And as I get older and feel like, yeah, I'm gonna take up as much space as I want in this world, I see how some people respond to that. We take the quarrelsome dame mantle pretty proudly. Would you say Meggie?
[00:40:37] Meggie Greivell: Definitely, we are quarrelsome dames.
[00:40:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yay.
[00:40:42] Meggie Greivell: embrace it.
[00:40:43] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm so happy to hear that.
[00:40:46] Meggie Greivell: I think, yeah, as women, we've all experienced times where we've been told that we're too loud, too rude, too bossy, too something. That's an aspect right there that we still have [00:41:00] so far to come with in terms of misogyny. The accused women were called quarrelsome dames then, and now we're just called something else.
[00:41:09] Josh Hutchinson: Now we see a lot with women politicians still getting labeled as witch.
[00:41:16] Meggie Greivell: Yes, definitely like Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren and here in Scotland no, Nicole Sturgeon, the former Prime Minister of Scotland. She has been called a witch several times.
[00:41:33] Josh Hutchinson: I've seen some of that, and it's just very inappropriate. It feels like men feel threatened when a woman comes into her power and can't just share responsibilities with women. You gotta feel threatened. They're taking over your job or something, but they're not, so [00:42:00] chill out dudes.
[00:42:01] Meggie Greivell: Exactly. As a female director, I've encountered that over my career, as well, with being in a position of power in what is still male-dominated industry. Some pushback definitely.
[00:42:17] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It is interesting to write a piece that's like blatantly naming what most women agree is an experience of being responded to or being pricked by misogyny. It's interesting to encounter what that's like for an audience member who doesn't feel comfortable with that. I think that I'm comfortable with someone being uncomfortable with this piece.
[00:42:46] And part of the reason why I infuse comedy or dark comedy into a subject like this is because that's one way that I can acknowledge that this is a I, [00:43:00] we all know what we're seeing here, right? We know what we're seeing. We're getting what we're seeing here. And it's just a way of acknowledging something that but just putting it into a vessel of communicating that is not a victimized place. That's a more of a an owning the power of what it means to be having this conversation at all.
[00:43:25] Madeline: I think the way you wrote it, Laurie, with the kind of time shifts to the modern platform with like comedic elements allows us to take in the gravity of the reality of the situation. And I feel like in many ways, like comedy, is it the element of that is necessary in this piece. It's not like we're just diving into some disaster tourism situation, like we're getting into something that's relevant and related to now, and you give like those little plant the seeds so people are [00:44:00] making connections. So like why does addressing this thing that happened a long time ago matter now, and how is it still happening, and what are the ways that even in the same place, even in, how is that still showing up?
[00:44:14] Because all of those pieces are still very much alive. And then there are other places in the world where like the reality perhaps even looks similar. But there's also that piece where like this history is a part of our history. And yeah, I feel like it makes it more accessible in a way to have the juxtaposition of that, of the conversation going on, like within the piece.
[00:44:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Madeline, something you just said about the disaster aspect. Like I didn't, that's another thing I didn't want, I didn't want it to be torture porn. That's a terrible word, but I didn't want everybody, everyone to come and see a piece that lives in a place where women are being harmed for an hour or more.[00:45:00] That color and that kind of gut punch, that's not interesting, and it's abusive. It's an abusive thing to do. I wanted people to be able to come in and out of this space and our characters and their cast to be able to come in and out of this space, have a conversation that needs to be had, raise a voice that needs to be raised, and by the grace of something, let them exit that space and move, shift into something else.
[00:45:24] And that, again, was a discovery along the way. But I felt it was important to lean into that as it was unveiling itself to us in the process. And our cast is doing a great job of navigating the kind of different colors of this piece. It's hard to describe, though. It's hard to explain, a piece about witch trials that has comedy in it. It seems a little hard to explain, but.
[00:45:50] Meggie Greivell: The piece really does lift up all of the women and gives them their voice back. And I think that is the most powerful [00:46:00] part of this. And the last word in the play that Laurie wrote is, "and the rage." So we have that whole aspect of it. It's giving the voices back to these women.
[00:46:11] Madeline: Also wanna add that in the process, like the week that we were over there, Laurie and I were over there working with actors. She was like, "I want you guys to tap into this and then I want you to tap out, like physically, do hands up. Okay, I'm getting into this role. I'm putting this on for a moment. But we're not like doing this to each other. This is we're agreeing right now." There was just this like little element of consent exercise that happened, like for the actors. It was like this facilitated thing that was, it was just nice to come in and out like that as a cohort.
[00:46:44] Sarah Jack: I just think undertaking this topic as a visual and audible presentation. It is such a layered undertaking, just like the history is, and you used the word [00:47:00] unveiling. It's an opportunity to unveil what we can't get everybody to acknowledge. I just keep thinking about the complexity of the reality, but then also, when I was reading through the script, there's just, all, Meggie said the double entendres, and then the iconic symbolisms, and you even got an apple in there with the devil, and the catchphrases, but then the puppetry and everything about it was just, I think it's such a remarkable piece of art. And thanks for putting it out there. It's important. It's so important.
[00:47:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I really appreciate that. I was really nervous about kind of the tone shifts right out of the gate, and so I really appreciate that feedback. And if something didn't work, I would wanna know that too, right? Because I feel like this subject and these people and just the larger conversation needs to be right, [00:48:00] like the history needs to be correct. The level of respect needs to be correct, and I'm serving a bigger thing, which is why I'm so pleased to be working on this project.
[00:48:12] Sarah Jack: I was gonna add, too, that whole comedy element, it's in the history. There's so many times where we're looking at these dispositions or different things we can read that were happening or people were saying, and you just are like, this can't even be real. It's sadly hysterical, and so I think that's a really great thread to be able to weave in to the storytelling, too, like you did.
[00:48:37] Meggie Greivell: It was all so much about fake news being spread around, which Laurie has written that in so well into the play, as that's so relevant today.
[00:48:47] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Honestly it was my, weirdly my way into this piece, 'cause I would say, I don't know how I'm gonna get into this piece, I don't know what my way in, I don't know what my way in is. And then it was, fake news. I was like, that to me, that was the [00:49:00] hook that got me started writing in the first place.
[00:49:03] I typically write musical theater pieces, and so when it came to the monologues that the women were doing, I didn't really know what to do. So I said, okay, I'm gonna treat this like it's a lyric. And if I were writing a lyric, I would just be brain draining all of my ideas about things that could be in a lyric. And then I would take that kind of dump of writing and find kernels inside of it to craft into a lyric.
[00:49:27] But I approached it in that way and I realized, oh no, this is the same approach, like they are having this moment of expression that is simply for their a mining of their emotional life at this moment of time when they're being when they're being interrogated. And it It felt the same to me as a song moment where it was, we call it sometimes in, in crafting musicals, theater, in crafting songs, a vertical expression instead of a long horizontal line. It's what is your thought? We're gonna go deeply into [00:50:00] this thought. And for me, it had a lyrical element in working it. And I think that's what I love about working with the puppets, too, is that the puppets to me have a lyrical element, too, because their movement is so expressive, and it's like the actors are singing the puppets alive.
[00:50:18] Madeline: I'm curious now. I haven't seen the script in a long time and probably haven't seen the things until it was like puppet does something here. And then Laurie would come to me and be like, "so what can I do?" So it was fun, I was building even as we got to Scotland and was building the week that we had with the actors.
[00:50:38] I'm curious what it says now when you're reading it, Sarah, because I'm like, oh, that, like we developed those things together and like we didn't really know what it was capable of until we're like figuring out what it's capable of doing. Yeah, just a funny curiosity thinking like, how does that look on paper now?
[00:50:59] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I don't think I [00:51:00] changed it in the script. I think the script just says, "the fox comes through" or that, yeah. But to Madeline's point about working collaboratively, I knew who the cast was before I had written a word of the play. So I was setting this piece onto this cast, and I was writing for the actors that I had, which is a really a luxury when you're a playwright to be able to write for actors that you know who they are. It's the best case scenario, I think.
[00:51:25] Madeline built The Accused, this woman puppet, which is gorgeous. And she built a fox, a cat, a jackdaw, and then a flock of jackdaws, a flock of 13 jackdaws. And the script, it just says that they sweep through, and some actors use them throughout the entire play, and they're just beautiful.
[00:51:50] Sarah Jack: I wanted to give you guys the opportunity to read something from the script.
[00:51:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I'd love to. Would you like to hear the Unknown Woman or from [00:52:00] Marion Twedy?
[00:52:01] Josh Hutchinson: I vote for Unknown.
[00:52:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: This is an excerpt from the Unknown Woman. So in this monologue, by the time we get to this place, she's realized that there's no stone. No one knows who she is. She's been wiped off the face of the earth, for all practical purposes. She explains that she understands why she was accused, that she doesn't blame her accuser, but that she didn't do what she had been accused of.
[00:52:30] And she's completely vulnerable at this point. So we hear the crescendo of a heartbeat, and she's alone.
[00:52:40] "Let me die, I think. I will tell them whatever it is they want to hear. If only I can get some rest. Only, but there is no rest for the wicked, they say. Am I wicked? I was baptized. I'm a Christian. My bairn was baptized, had a Christian burial. [00:53:00] How did it come to this? I'll tell them whatever it is they want to hear, I'll tell them, yes, no, whatever I'm supposed to say to make this nightmare end so I can sleep, so I can hold my bairn again. But there is no rest for the wicked. Let me die, I think. I want to die. I think. I think I'm dead, for here I am here in this purgatory. Is this purgatory or is this someplace worse? Some kind of purgatory with no hope of escape? Is this hell? There's no rest here, no bairn, no breath. I do not lay in consecrated ground. I have no stone. Ah, that explains it. That explains why nobody visits me. Nobody comes to weep or laugh or make a pencil rub or write a poem or mark a holiday.[00:54:00] Will I my soul, will my soul ever be allowed to be at peace? Will I ever hold my bairn again? You damned me to an eternity of what, what you damned yourself, they said. How? How? I made a charm the way my mother taught me, the way her mother taught her, the way her mother taught her. They said I danced with the devil. If I did dance, that's all I did, dance. I don't know what I did. I don't know anything anymore."
[00:54:33] I didn't use Scottish dialect. I'm not gonna pretend to be Carys Turner, the beautiful performer who does that in our play.
[00:54:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much.
[00:54:44] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.
[00:54:46] Josh Hutchinson: Wonderful. I just want to talk for a moment about how people can see the play. Can you tell us about how it's playing right now and any future plans that you have?
[00:54:58] Meggie Greivell: Yes, so [00:55:00] it's right now we are on until the 25th at the Space on the Mile at 11:15 AM on odd days. We are hoping, really hoping, that it gets picked up for a tour in the UK and Scotland. We've had a few producers, so fingers crossed on that. And it will be filmed professionally on the 21st, so we will have it archived, and so we will have a film version of it, and we hope to bring it to the US, as well. Laurie hopes to bring it to the US, as well. So we just are right now, our fingers are just crossed that we can get it on a tour.
[00:55:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: If anybody's interested in reading the play to produce a version of it, feel free to reach out to me, and I'd be happy to send a copy of the script.
[00:55:50] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a powerful story that needs to be told. So I wish you all the best of luck getting it picked up for tours.[00:56:00] It's so good to give voices to the voiceless. So that's something that we want to do with the podcast, as well, is tell the stories of these people, even the unknown person that Sarah was talking about earlier, they need their story told. So I think you, I think that theater is an excellent way to introduce the story to audiences.
[00:56:29] Sarah Jack: Is there anything else you wanted to be able to express today?
[00:56:34] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The people who were prickers were individuals, and in our world they're represented by this kind of boogeyman character who's a pricker, not a specific individual.
[00:56:47] Meggie Greivell: And he represents all of the men of the time who are abusing their power.
[00:56:52] Madeline: I maybe wanna add that there was a lot of deliberation that kind of went into landing on doing one woman puppet, [00:57:00] and we talked about making specific puppets for each of the actresses, of their like particular faces, sculpting off of their pictures. And yeah, it was just a vibrant conversation and we landed on this, but in a way also just thinking about honoring the larger experience, I think landing on one woman.
[00:57:21] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I would say that people respond to seeing that one puppet as a very universal creation and see themselves in it. I the feedback that we've gotten from people is that was the right thing and that it really is very resonant. I also wanna say that this piece is still alive, right? So it was created super collaboratively and quickly and generously by all of the collaborators that were involved. Meggie brought the idea, Madeline was part of it from the very beginning, and the students gave us a lot of feedback in the process of writing. First time that they saw a script, it was just [00:58:00] the first 30 pages. That was the first time we said, "okay, how do we feel about these tone shifts? How do we feel about the fact that it moves through time and space?"
[00:58:09] And we were all in agreement. As I went forward writing pages for them about what that would look like, they would come back to me and say, "we wish that the devil would come back."
[00:58:21] "Okay, what does that look like?"
[00:58:23] "We wanna see King James again."
[00:58:25] "What does that look like?"
[00:58:26] "What if the watcher in the next scene is the farmer watching his wife?"
[00:58:30] "Oh, that's a great idea. Let me see what that looks like."
[00:58:32] So those, and it's still a new work and I suspect that the next production will have edits, like a new play does when it goes into another iteration. So I'm really excited to see how this play continues to grow. And I would say that if anybody does wanna do this piece, that they should hunt down Madeline Helling to work on the puppets with them.
[00:58:52] Madeline: Well, and I'll say too on that note, like there was a lot of changes. She'd be like, "oh, I met with the cast. So this whole part has changed." Like every [00:59:00] time there was like a Zoom, there was like both of you could attest that there were many changes that were made. So on my end I kept being like, "okay, you're not ready for that part, so I'm just gonna hold off or build this thing and then change it." And just given our time constraint and like what I needed to craft, it was like, okay, I'm just, I was just like crafting at a pace that went with the ebb and flow.
[00:59:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I'm just grateful to Meggie for having this idea and bringing it, she, she actually, when she first in invited me to this piece, she said, "I just got back from having dinner at The Witchery." There's this restaurant called The Witchery in Edinburgh. It's a fancy, beautiful restaurant, but she said it's a restaurant called The Witchery on the grounds, essentially of where the witches were burned. And that felt off to you, would you say, Meggie? That felt.
[00:59:50] Meggie Greivell: Yeah, that's how this all started. The first time I went to North Berwick too, when I'd never been there before, and I learned about the North Berwick witch [01:00:00] trials, and I was completely floored and disgusted. There was just a tiny little plaque in this old church by the sea about it, but nothing else.
[01:00:10] And then from there I kept getting even more enraged. Like Laurie said, I went to The Witchery and my family, and it's this beautiful restaurant with exquisite dining options. But yeah it's where the witches, the women were burned. Not the witches. The women, or the women were burned.
[01:00:29] And I also went on a tour, a ghost tour about a few months before I approached Laurie, and they pulled out thumbscrews that they, I replicated thumbscrews. I don't think they were real. And they took, were asking for volunteers to put them on, and I think they put them on me, and everyone was laughing and I was just disgusted this isn't funny but that's a problem with Edinburgh. It's very exploitative of the witch [01:01:00] trials and I know it's like that in Salem, as well. I just thought this is a story that needs to be told, and theater is what I do, so that is going to be the medium for it. And I reached out to Laurie on a whim, and I got lucky.
[01:01:18] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[01:01:22]
[01:01:29] Mary Bingham: Recently I suffered a situation which resulted in my feeling anxious, heartbroken, and most sadly not wanted. Luckily, I have a wonderful community of family, friends, and social services in which I can tap into if needed until I get back on my feet. I am grateful.
[01:01:49] This is not the situation for those women of Ghana accused of witchcraft. They are accused for causing sickness to their neighbors, weather [01:02:00] conditions to cause crop failures, among other things. Those women who are not beaten and burned alive for this crime they did not commit, were sent to one of six witch camps where their living situations were abhorrent at best.
[01:02:15] I cannot begin even to fathom their feelings of total abandonment and betrayal at the hands of their neighbors and family members. Yes, family members. I shouldn't complain. I will survive. Some of these women will not, but there is hope. In 2005, ActionAid started to infiltrate these camps with basic life necessities. The advocates also educated these women and children, informing the women of their rights. In 2011, the women were thus able to stop the Ghana government from closing the camps the following year. Quick closure could result in homelessness [01:03:00] and possibly death by those wanting these innocent human beings dead. They spoke loud and strong using every media and social service at their disposal, increasing benefits for themselves to survive.
[01:03:15] For me, I look forward to the day when my living situation improves. However, I look more towards these women who survive circumstances I will never understand. They are the heroes along with the advocates who risk their lives to save the many for whom they advocate. Thank you.
[01:03:34]
[01:03:42] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:03:43] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[01:03:47]
[01:03:53] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. We must continue to educate [01:04:00] against witch-hunt behavior and provide communities with the resources to feel safe together and to work together. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
[01:04:14] Today, the victims of sorcery accusation related violence must not be nameless and disregarded. We may not know the names of men and women who were attacked today, but we know what is happening. We can speak about their stories and their innocence. We can continue to educate the world about which hunting today. We can acknowledge the crisis. Know that the victims have names, that they have lives, that they have plans, that they want their beautiful tomorrow. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors in which attacks, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
[01:04:46] I am descended from two well-known accused witches, one whose name was used in the iconic play of The Crucible by Arthur Miller. Rebecca Nurse is a name that is familiar with everyone who knows even a little about the Salem witchcraft trials. She said on the record, the [01:05:00] world will know my innocence. We do know her innocence, and we can name her as innocent by name. Rebecca Nurse
[01:05:06] was not a witch. Some of the trials on record have accused identified only by their husband's surname as Goodwife or Goody. Goody Knapp, Goodwife Bassett. We do not know the given name of these women, but we do know that they were innocent of causing supernatural harm. Goody Knapp and Goodwife Bassett were not witches.
[01:05:24] In the American colonies, we have primary sources indicating that at least one unknown person was accused of witchcraft crimes in Connecticut. Unknown was not a witch. Unknown was innocent. Although some names are recorded, the names of thousands of other imprisoned and executed alleged witch across Scotland are unknown. They were innocent. They were not witches.
[01:05:45] When we hear the name of Rebecca Nurse, Marion Twedy, and Isobel Gowdie or other named, executed witch trial victims, may we always see their unnamed sisters, the unknown victims standing there with them in history, unforgotten. Today, 70 years after The Crucible, [01:06:00] the play Prick is memorializing the thousands of women who suffered and died as unnamed alleged witches. This play recognizes them. It is a memorial to the unknown. We must remember them. Thank you, Prick, for honoring their memory in a significant and beautiful way, and for educating the world about witch trials through creative art.
[01:06:18] You are part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. Your listening and support is part of the work that keeps the critical conversation on ending witch hunts alive and expanding. When you share episodes with your friends, you are making an effort against violence. Having conversations about what is going on is an easy way that you can jump in to end witch hunts. Advocates worldwide are using their particular abilities, influence, and social network. And when you also listen and share, you are part of strengthening that network. It takes every mind, every voice, every small effort. You are a part of the world network that succeeds because of collaboration and collective efforts. When you speak up about sorcery accusation related violence, you will get questions [01:07:00] about the issue. Questions regarding violence against alleged witches can be scary, but we have your back. Not only have you garnered the answers by listening to the conversations on Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast, you can direct anyone to the program for more information. You can reach out to us with your questions and comments anytime. We are on all social media platforms and have a contact form on our website. Let us know how the conversation is going for you in your sphere of influence. We want to know. Reach out.
[01:07:26] Visiting our websites and the advocate websites listed in our show notes often is another way to stay up to date and support the work. To support us, make a tax deductible donation at endwitchhunts.org. Your support funds are witch trial history and advocacy education projects. You can purchase most of the books discussed on Thou Shalt Not Suffer episodes in our online bookshop, or you can buy it directly from the guest. We sell End Witch Hunts, Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast t-shirts and coffee mugs online in our zazzle.com shop. Make a purchase to support us.
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[01:08:13]
[01:08:19] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:08:21] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:08:22] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:08:28] Sarah Jack: Join us next week for another important episode.
[01:08:31] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:08:34] Sarah Jack: I hope you're visiting us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[01:08:42] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:08:48] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:08:51] [01:09:00]

August 24, 2023

Italian Witchcraft Trials with Debora Moretti

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Show Notes

Take a first look at witch trial history in early modern Italy. Dr. Debora Moretti, of the University of York Centre for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies shares her research on Italian witchcraft beliefs and trials during the Roman Inquisition. What type of historical record is available today from this period in Italy? In this intriguing conversation she talks about witchcraft belief variations around Italy, some differences and similarities between Italian witchcraft beliefs and those found in other countries, Witch Sabbat details, and word origins for varying terms for the word witch in Italian.

Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, Dr. Deborah Moretti of the University of York Center for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies tells us about Italian witchcraft beliefs and trials.
[00:00:40] Sarah Jack: I am so excited that we got to talk about Italy. There are so many variations in witchcraft beliefs around Italy, and Dr. Moretti is the person to learn about it from.
[00:00:52] Josh Hutchinson: In addition to learning about the witchcraft beliefs in Italy, we'll compare differences and similarities with beliefs found in other countries.
[00:01:04] Sarah Jack: There's a lot to learn about the witches sabbat, and it's in this episode.
[00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: And we'll learn about the differences between demoniac and non-demoniac witchcraft, and we'll learn about the Inquisition's role and practices in witchcraft trials in Italy.
[00:01:24] Sarah Jack: Dr. Moretti talks to us about the records of some specific witch trials that occurred in Siena and Piedmont, and it's fascinating.
[00:01:35] Josh Hutchinson: Among the many words that we'll learn for witchcraft, one is masca. We'll learn what that term refers to, what the origins of the word are, and who was the last masca.
[00:01:51] Sarah Jack: Here is Dr. Deborah Moretti, who holds a specialized master's degree, an MLitt in ancient history and archeology from the University of Florence and a PhD in history from the University of Bristol. She has taught courses and seminars in ancient history and medieval and early modern history at the University of Florence and Bristol.
Her research interests cover the history of Italian witchcraft in medieval and early modern period; ancient, medieval, and modern European paganism and magic, and also material evidence of magic in archeological context. Her published research focuses on the interactions between magic, its archeological evidence, and the social perception of the historical practitioners of magic and witchcraft.
Marker
[00:02:35] Debora Moretti: The curiosity in historical studies and archeological studies is out there. I have just done a three days public outlet for archeology. I had many young people, they're doing also history, and the interest is there. So that's a positive sign. We, as you know, we just did in July a witchcraft conference, magic and witchcraft conference over two days. We, when I say we, it was myself and Tabitha Stanmore from University of Exeter, we organized the conference, and we focused, we really wanted to give more space to early career researchers following magic and witchcraft academic studies. And I have to say many people were surprised of the interest.
The interest is still there. There are new avenues being studied, being researched. Therefore, I think magic and witchcraft studies are still in a very good place. There is a new blood coming in, and it was really exciting to have them all. Great exchange of ideas. We both have learned quite a lot.
And because of that, next year is already in preparation. Next year will be the third year. So last year, it was just me organize it, and I had big names like Ronald Hutton or Owen Davies, Marina Montesano from Messina University, just to assess their research, where this year we focused on early career researchers, because we wanted to see is there a follow up to the big names? And there is.
So yes exciting times for studies in magic and witchcraft in all directions from spatial analysis to linguistic analysis, not just history or archeology, ethnography, anthropology. So it's still very vibrant, which is good to see, really. And also I think what excited me the most was how we are all prepared to embrace different type of media. So rather than follow the classical conferences, symposia, publication, there is more interest in having a more wider outlet, in social media and platforms like Instagram or, I'm not quite sure about TikTok, but Facebook, yes, I say I knew that the field was not stalling. I knew that it was still, the academic research was still carrying on, but I think I came out of the two days conference quite refreshed, knowing that yes, we are still there, we're still working, we're still researching in different areas to answer the many questions that still need to be answered.
[00:05:27] Sarah Jack: Dr. Danny Buck tweeted out a lot of his experience as he was there, and it was very enticing, and it sounded like the topics and the discussions were really, what he was sharing really highlighted what you just shared for sure. I followed a lot of new historians that I hadn't been aware of yet, and I thought some of their focus topics were really important, too. So what an exciting time.
[00:05:58] Debora Moretti: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.
[00:06:01] Josh Hutchinson: I think of this as something of a golden age in witchcraft academic studies. There's so much research out there now, where, when I first got interested in witch trials about 15 years ago, there were a few books around, some of them older, but now it's just, I can't keep up with everything that's coming out. It's so wonderful.
[00:06:34] Debora Moretti: Yes, it's, as I said, is refreshing to see. So of course, up to maybe five years ago, everybody was following the same pathways, because I think the usual pathways have to be explored more in depth, and now that we have explored them, there is like an explosion. For example, there is a focus on the inner emotions of basically of both the accusers and the people that were accused and even of the judges or the inquisitors, what was their background culturally, but also what was the input that put them there to ask certain questions? There is a focus on, as I said spatial narratives.
So, for example, there was a panel dedicated to the location of the Sabbat. So you, wherever you go in Europe, nevermind just one country, but in Europe altogether, you have different places that've been chosen to represent the perfect location for the sabbat by the people at the time. So you have liminal places. Therefore, you have a wooded area, you have the forest, you have the mountains, you have the sea.
And of course these liminal places were connected to the local culture of specific groups at the time. So what was important for their economy? What was important for their livelihood? What was important in the fears, like the fear of the forest, that contributed to create the perfect location of the sabbat?
[00:08:20] Sarah Jack: I was also thinking about the circle of borrowed concepts.
[00:08:24] Debora Moretti: Yes that's mine. I'm really proud of that. Of course, I was referring to what I am studying specifically. So that is the context of the Roman Inquisition trials. In the trial documents, you see, there has been an argument in the last 20 years on how really the Inquisition trials documents are primary sources to understand the perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices at the time, in both the people who were accused, the accusers, but also the inquisitors, because it's like a dichotomy.
So you have a more learned approach to witchcraft beliefs or it's more a theological approach. And that was what was driving the inquisitors and the judges. And then there is more a folk approach or folk perception of magic and witchcraft. And that's what you can read in the depositions of both the accused and the accusers.
Borrowing concepts, the idea behind that is that when somebody accused somebody else, they brought to the table their own perception, cultural and folk perception of what they believed a witch was or witchcraft acts were. And they were confronted by the perception of the Inquisitor of what a witch was and what witchcraft acts were.
And of course, the two met during the witchcraft trials and there is evidence of the one part influencing the other. Also you have to think that a witchcraft trials was not just one event. And despite the, both the accusers and the accused were told of not discussing the trial outside of the tribunal, discussion did happen.
So whatever the Inquisitor or the judge said was then reported to the wider village people. And it was absorbed in a way, but also the other way around. There is the folk perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices, and then you have the more learned perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices that come together and influence each other. That was the idea of the borrowed concepts of witchcraft beliefs.
[00:11:12] Josh Hutchinson: Turning our attention specifically to Italy, what elements of witchcraft beliefs are unique to Italy?
[00:11:20] Debora Moretti: The first element is the longevity. So let's talk about the folk perception of witchcraft and what a witch is in the witchcraft trials. So the archives that I am using, they're dated between 1570 to 1780, more or less, and the same concepts come through across the 200 years period. Two different perceptions.
So there is still the idea of a witch as we have been told a witch should be, this almost supernatural figure, who would fly to sabbat either on top of a mountain or in a forest or somewhere else, have a pact with the devil, participate to the sabbat, so gathering of people. And during that sabbat they would do certain things, learning the dark art, copulating with the devil, eating specific things, amongst which, babies. So you have the supernatural witch, but then at the same time you have also the more practical witch, which is a normal person that has the capability of working sorcery for both a positive and negative end.
So you find the same spells throughout the 200 years period. And I'm not sure if I confront them with the English trials, for example, I'm not sure you find the same chronological broadness of certain beliefs. At least the practical side of beliefs is there is a famous spell the spell of the carafe or specifically called the Spell of the White and Black Angel, which you can find as early as mid-sixteenth century, but then you can find in mid 18th century. Is the same spell that has been maintained and practiced across the country.
So I would say the longevity, yes, the longevity of the beliefs, but also the practices is one characteristic of Italian witchcraft beliefs. Some others, for example, how to remove the evil eye has survived till now. I have example of the evil eye and how to remove it in trials dating mid to late 16th century. And then, I have my great-grandmother who was born in the late 19th century, who used the same practices to remove the evil eye.
So can we say that certain spells have survived throughout centuries? Yes, but with a condition. So where in the 16th century you would see a more defined perception of the supernatural, nowadays, removing a evil eye is just a matter of fact practice. So it has a less supernatural perception in it, if you like. So definitely let the longevity of the beliefs both as what a witch is and what the practices are. It's just that nowadays, because there is no pressure of the inquisition at certain practices are not, even in the 18 19th century, certain practices are no longer considered maleficia. So there's no connection to heresy. They're still there in some form. So continuity. Absolutely. The perception has changed. We no longer think that the devil has a major part in it. We are no longer talking of heresy, but we are still talking of bad and good practices, and certain practices are specifically maintained to help people to overcome certain problems.
[00:15:37] Sarah Jack: So as a little bit of an explainer, I'm wondering so like when you look at the New England witch trials, which is very different in every way, there is no longevity of practice, understanding. They're not even, there's no spells as a part of the trial history. But there are the hidden protective magic in their homes. The magic is there somewhere, but we don't really understand what their perception of it was. And we don't even have a perception of it today here in the United States. It's very interesting to me that we were targeting and murdering women as witches in the United States, but there wasn't even that element of spells or anything with it. So it seems very different, and I just wonder what people need to understand about that.
[00:16:33] Debora Moretti: I think the element was still there, but has not been recorded in the primary documents. Owen Davies has written a great book, I think it came out in 2013, which was America Bewitched: The Story of Witchcraft after Salem. And he pointed out that the perception of witchcraft and magic practices did not end at 1692. They carried on, but is the documentation that has changed.
He looked at different records, and he found evidence that the perception of witchcraft beliefs and beliefs in witches carried on later on and only petered out around the 1960s. Personally, what I really think is that there you had the same elements. So there were certain beliefs, certain practices that gave a push to the witch-hunt, but perhaps they were not recorded, because you have to understand the media through which this information has come to us. Now, I am lucky because I have the Inquisition records, and they were very meticulous in recording what constituted a witchcraft crime or a heretical crime. But if the local judges or the local priest did not record that and focused only on the heretical element or only on the pact with the devil, that's what we have.
So we have to remember that witchcraft-related sources are incredibly biased and they've been biased from the time that were created. So we have to see who wrote them, who actually wrote the documentation, why the person has written them, and what was the purpose of the final document? So again, if I make you a comparison with Inquisition trial documents, we know that the Roman Inquisition dealt with heresy. Therefore, in the interrogations, you can see how the Inquisitor was chasing the heretical crime. So of all the many things that the accused person was telling, the Inquisitor focused on the heretical crime, and that is a form of biased. Now we are lucky. I am lucky because everything was recorded.
But if in your case, the person noted down on the document decided that a certain spell did not qualify as heretical and did not fit the agenda of that specific trial, it was left out. So the fact that references to spells are not there does not mean that they were not there. It probably, in fact, very likely means that the person writing down did not consider them important to the agenda that the person was following or the trial agenda.
So we have to be really careful in how we handle any document that is related to witchcraft accusations, because ultimately they were written by somebody who did have an agenda. Therefore, large parts were left out. In Italian witchcraft trials, we, back 20 years ago, we were saying, oh yes, from the late 17th century witchcraft trials were no longer important. They didn't happen or they petered out. That's not quite true. The agenda of the inquisition changed. Therefore, the questions during the interrogations did not cover some elements. You have to understand what was behind the interrogation. What was the agenda of the institution or person that was carrying out the interrogation? What was the ultimate goal? So for the Roman Inquisition was to find out heretical practices, because they had jurisdiction only on practices that had a heretical nature. The rest, they didn't have jurisdiction on them.
I think I would say the first step for anybody that wants to get into witchcraft studies is, especially if they're working on archival material, is to understand the institution that has created the archival material and what was the ultimate goal of this institutional judge or, I don't know, tribunal? What was the ultimate goal? Was it really persecuting every form of magical practices, or was it just one section, were they chasing only the pact with the devil? Therefore, in that case, they would've left out everything else. They would've left out, I don't know, healing practices that might have had a magical side to them or other things, because did not support what they were chasing, basically.
And Owen Davies has used, as I said, different materials like newspapers, ethnographical material, and I love the book. And he, I think he showed that the perception of witchcraft did indeed change, but accusations were still there. The perception of the malevolent witch was still there. It was just in different primary sources. It was treated differently by the legal system. It's a different form, but the beliefs themselves, they were still there and I think, maybe spells and magical practices were there, but they were not recorded because not necessary for what they were looking for.
[00:23:10] Josh Hutchinson: They did record a few practices, divination, but not the spells. They would mention that a person would go away mumbling, but they wouldn't say what the person said. They never wrote down the words. They just wrote down that, yeah, they might have cursed this person. But the words weren't important for whatever reason.
[00:23:36] Debora Moretti: Exactly. Where again, I am lucky because the words were recorded is like in the case of Caterina Caponero, for example, we are early 17th century. She was, by the time she was accused and therefore put on trial, she had a 20 years career of magical practitioner, if you like, and she did all sorts of things. She did love spells, she did healing spells. She was quite well known in the community. The real reason why she ended up in front of the Inquisitor was because of this specific Spell of the White Angel, Black Angel, which the inquisitor's manuals saw as heretical because, shall I tell you what the spell is so you understand?
This is a spell that is very famous, and, as I said, it has survived. It was practiced across Italy for 200 years. So basically the person doing the spell would collect holy water from a church and put the holy water in a carafe. The person then would get a holy candle, usually what was leftover of Candlemas, so a specific type of candle. They would put the candle, so the carafe on the table, the candle behind the carafe, and then they would ask either a child or a nun, somebody who had not had sexual intercourse or a virgin human being to look into the carafe. So the candle would create shapes into the water and the person would tell the magic practitioner what the shapes were, and the magical practitioner would basically understand what the shapes were, and this spell was usually done for either finding treasures or recovering stolen objects.
Now, even some churches across Italy would ask the help of magic practitioners to use this spell, if they had some goods stolen by others. Now, Caterina was really good at it because there is a woman accusing her, saying that she didn't want to get involved with her, but she was desperate to find the stolen goods. So she went to Caterina, and not only Caterina saw where the goods were, but Caterina also saw who had stolen the goods and we don't know if then the woman went and got her goods back. But she was adamant on the fact that Caterina was, she never said, oh, she's good, but she said something on the lines of, I was surprised, and she was right. She told me who they were, and I knew that they were these people. So of 20 years magical practices career, the Inquisitor just focused on this one because the Inquisition manuals said that the black angel is the devil. So the magical practitioner was interacting with the devil.
And that was that. Nevermind the fact that she cured many people. Nevermind that she used other things for love magic. That was the thing that got her in trouble, and she was in and out of prison for decades and she got tortured for this. And she was basically kept in prison. So you see if the Inquisitor or the tribunal was not really careful in taking notes of what she was saying, we would've missed her spell, her love spells, or her healing spells, and we would've known of her, only of the white angel, black angel spell.
See how very narrow it's, so it depends on who is down the interrogation. So yeah it's very, the sources are very biased from the very beginning. So I think one who wants really to approach the trials documents has to keep that in mind all the time.
[00:27:50] Sarah Jack: Yeah. I just keep thinking about Samuel Wardwell in North Andover, and part of it's my own as I've come along trying to put all this together. He has this fortune telling. He's known, or it's brought up about him. He's questioning it. If these practices were getting them in trouble, but they were known to do it and comfortable, like, why were they so surprised for getting in trouble when they were publicly doing these things?
And now I'm seeing that many of them were, it was a very, possibly a very normal part of their interaction with each other, but because of what the target of the Salem witch trials was, which was the devil and the covenanting. There are these tiny little flickers of magical practices, even in the Salem witchcraft story. And it doesn't fit, it doesn't make sense. But that's why, this is why, what you are explaining is the answer to that.
[00:28:51] Debora Moretti: Even further back in time many practices were in place generation prior the person being accused of witchcraft. Now, you would wonder why all of a sudden what they have been prac, like Caterina, she has done that for 20 years. What happened to suddenly make her a heretical witch?
There is a shift with the at least I'm talking of course, for Italian witchcraft here, specifically. So when the Reformation kicked in and the Roman Catholic Church kicked back with a Counter-Reformation, so we are mid 16th century, the Catholic Church had to reform its ways so could fight back the Reformation. In reforming itself, push down on its flock. The supervision of the Church of its flock's practices became more focused.
So the general people had to follow a tighter line, a better Christian behavior. So all of a sudden the practices that they are carried out and learned from their parents and they have freely carried out up to that point, became dangerous practice, or the church started to consider them dangerous. Therefore, they became suddenly visible. And what the church did was also to invite the general public to come forward, if they had known of people practicing heretical. And they did, the population did. So the church provided a platform and the people used the platform. So we tend to say that the witchcraft accusations did not come from above, they came from below. So once there was a platform created by the Church, the general people used it, and that's when the accusations started. And the accusations, a good percentage of the accusations, were between neighbors, within the same family, and what propelled these accusations were usually bad social interactions.
There is an example in the witchcraft trials of Novara in the north in Piedmont, where a woman, an elderly woman, she was a widow and her husband, and you can read this in the trial, her husband left with good money, which was unusual. So she ended up lending money to different people, farmers, traders, et cetera, because that's how she would have an interest and have a better life.
When the time came that these people had to pay her back, that's when they accused her of being a witch. So she was bad-tempered, and everybody knew that. And they used that to say that she was a witch, so they didn't have to pay the money back. So you see, once they had the platform upon which to act, they did act on it, and they accused, whoever they were unhappy with at the time. They accused these people.
But then if you come forward to nowadays, don't you think people would do the same? If the authorities created a platform where you could get rid of your neighbor that has been making your life miserable for 15 years, wouldn't you do that? I think what happened there is a very human behavior. Pettiness, jealousy, even competitiveness played a role and also social situation. Generally speaking, these people struggled in their day-to-day lives. So they had to make their lives better, and they had a place to do that. They had a stage upon which play all these things.
So witchcraft trials are, gosh, so complicated. There are so many factors that one has to keep in mind, and that's why it feels like you are never a specialist. You are one person that continues to study even the same witchcraft trials, because you have to approach them from different viewpoints, and you have to understand exactly the role played by everybody in a specific trial. You can't just see the side of the accused. You have to see the side of the accusers. You have to understand what type of economy was there at the time. You have to understand the political scenery of the time, the religious background of the time, and then also considered, in my case, what was the ultimate goal of the Roman Inquisition? What and who were they chasing?
It is like Caterina, for example, she was a bit surprised of all these accusations. And she did say, "I've been operating for so many years." And she actually did say, "I even went around saying, 'oh, I'm really good at doing this and that magical practices.'" And she had a good trade, and she could not understand why all of a sudden she was being accused by the very same people who she helped, because the main accuser on her trial was a really disgruntled wife who had a cheating husband. And the wife thought that the cheating husband was cheating on her, because he was somehow bewitched. Personally, I don't think so, but there you go, that's my very personal opinion. But previous this so she accused the two women who took away her husband and then she accused Caterina of providing the magical meaning for these two women to steal her husband. Now, previous that, few years previous that, and this is in the trial, the same wife did go to Caterina for a love spell, to have her husband back.
So Caterina gave her the spell of the magnet. Literally was a piece of magnet that had been baptized in the church. And Caterina called the wife to keep it either in her mouth when she was kissing the husband, or in other parts of her body while they were doing other things, so the husband would be attracted to her, literally magnet attraction. So Caterina is saying, "but I have helped you with your husband, so why are you now accusing me of this?"
So you can see the social interconnection. These trials are never in isolation. You have to keep in mind the social context of them amongst all the other things. And that's why I say trial documents are complex. You have to read them in context. I am fond of giving the stage to the people that were in the trial rather than me making assumptions. I like them to be the main actors, because it's them who we should be listening to. And also the judges and inquisitors, because it's only them that can tell the story appropriately.
And then we have to place these stories within a really wide cultural, political, social, economic background. And I think only then we can get a glimpse of really what happened to have the full picture of them.
[00:37:11] Josh Hutchinson: Many excellent points. In Italy, in your articles, you've written about the regional differences in the witchcraft. Can you explain some of those? What was the difference, for instance, between belief in the Alps and belief south of the Alps?
[00:37:31] Debora Moretti: Yes. So this was part, this was the main part of my PhD thesis. So I worked on two different archives. One is the inquisition archive of the city of Siena, which is still is thankfully in Tuscany, so we are talking center north of Italy. And in the Episcopal Archive of the city of Novara, which is in Piedmont, therefore in the North.
And the witch trials of the Novara archive, they are, the events took part in two very small villages in the Alps. Now, the difference between, and I'm going to give you the general differences. Otherwise, we will be here for three days. So the main differences are that in the Novara archive, the witches, or the accusations carried out, present the supernatural witch, the heretical witch, as we know it from Central Europe, so the typical witch that we know.
So the person, supernatural person, who would indeed fly to the sabbat on top of a mountain, in a gathering, the sabbat, where first and foremost they would meet the devil. They would kiss his bottom of the devil and then have sex with the devil and then dance obscene dances. And usually they were dancing backwards, and then they would have lots of food, always without salt. One of the preferred food was children, there's a lot of children.
So that's the stereotypical, heretical witch that was pushed by the elite of the time. So that is the heretical witch. Whereas in Tuscany or in the Siena archive, there are references to the sabbat, but they are, they're almost like passing by references. And the figure of the witch is not really the heretical witch. You have more a low level sorcerer. So the person who would learn certain spells and they were not necessarily all bad. So the majority of the spells that you find in the accusations that you find in the north, as I said, they are heretical acts and mainly killing children, adoring the devil, and all that. So that is pure apostasy, and that's why that is a heretical crime. Where in the Siena archive, you find healing spells, you find love spells, you find what at the time called a tero tero spells. So they are spells to make, usually men, win games or find treasures. You do have references to the devil, but they are very specific. The adoration of the devil in Central Italy or in the Siena archive is usually associated with priests, nuns, or educated people.
The references to the devil of your normal folks is, you don't find the devil much, and when you do find it, it has almost like a secondary role. They addressed the saints, they addressed God, they addressed the angels, they even addressed stars, certain stars. And then if all that did not bring a change, then they addressed the devil. The devil was not that important. It was part of a supernatural universe. They, the majority of these people, apart the few, like the priests or the aristocrats or the nuns, the majority of the people accused were poor people that were struggling, so in the trials, you see how they justified certain acts as a way of making their life better. So sometimes you have people saying, when they've been asked, did you address the devil? And they say, oh yes, but it wasn't my first choice. I went to Saint So-and-so first and then the angel, and then the bright star, and then I have to go to the devil, because nobody else made it happen.
So you have this feeling that the sabbat is not important. Not even in the accusations, because we have, if we want to understand the sabbat, we have to read the accusations. So in the accusations of the Novara Piedmont North, you have, people accusing somebody else of going, flying to the sabbat and committing apostasy and kissing the devil's bottom. Where in the Siena Archive, there's not much there. There, there are references, but they are not your typical heretical gatherings.
Now, you find different references to different type of sabbats across Italy. So these are not the only two typologies. It's almost a regional perception of the sabbat. But whereas in the north you have your typical sabbat that you also have in central Europe, for example, or even in Scotland, in the center and maybe the south is more local. So you have the walnuts of Benevento or you have other types of sabbats. So they're more folk perceptions of the sabbat. Where in the north, as in the rest of Europe, is the stereotypical sabbat that was imposed from above.
[00:43:18] Josh Hutchinson: So it's more of a diabolical pact that's important in the north, and in the south, it, and central, it sounds like it had more to do with magic that was being used for practical purposes, and it's the magic itself doing the harm versus what the source of the magic is. Yeah. Okay.
[00:43:43] Debora Moretti: Exact perfect. Perfectly. Yeah. Perfectly spotted.
[00:43:47] Josh Hutchinson: you. Can you tell us about the different words there were for witchcraft and witches?
[00:43:57] Debora Moretti: Oh, yes,
[00:43:58] Josh Hutchinson: know you pointed out several of different words and they had somewhat different meanings.
[00:44:04] Debora Moretti: Yes. So strega is the one that we all know the best, because it is the one that comes from Latin. And that has survived into modern time. But then you have, for example, the masca, that seems to come from a more Germanic type of substratum. This is my hypothesis, the different names for witch in Italy, they are determined by the different languages in different regions. For example, in the areas that were because you have to remember that in Italy you didn't just have the Roman Inquisition, you also had the Spanish Inquisition in the south and some parts of the center. And then you had the Episcopal tribunals, et cetera. So it was a very complex religious situation regarding witchcraft.
So you have in some part of Italy witches is that are called bruja, for example, that comes from Spanish. So that's an influence of the language. And masca, for example, comes from the Germanic, I think. It's definitely Longobard, or Lombard as, as you say in English, of Lombard origins. So the the terminology of witch depends on the subcultural substratum of different regions.
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[00:45:33] Debora Moretti: And then, of course, you have, so in the modern language you have strega, fata, and maga. So the fata is derives from the Latin word for fatum, which is a prophetic declaration, an oracle, or a prediction and is more, the fata is more of benign folklore figure. So it's not necessarily a witch, but sometimes fata has magical powers, and they were usually benign, but if humans treated them badly, then they would take revenge on them, basically.
Maga is, it comes from Latin. And it comes from Maji, from the Persian Maga, in fact derived originally from Greek, and then it was used in the Latin language. So it comes from that word, from the Persian word that means learned and priestly class. And then it became more like of a magical practitioner. And in the modern Italian folk tradition, the maga would be also synonymous of a healer or cunning woman. Now you do have the male version as well. So maga mage is for it's a female magic practitioner where mago magi is a male magic practitioner. They're less threatening figures, but they certainly still have magical powers.
The strega is absolutely a negative figure, because it really comes from the Latin strix and striges. So there's no way to find a benign character in the name. The masca, again, that's specific to the northwest of Italy, is mostly a negative, is still is today seen as a negative magic practitioner. And he still, now, it's one of the most famous type of witches in Italy to the point that Piedmont, for example has a specific tourist sector dedicated to the masca.
So yeah, so you have your typical witch the strega, which is definitely negative, has negative attributes. Then you have the fata, which is more of a folk benign entity that can turn nasty, but usually as a vindictive act. You have the maga or mago, which is more cunning folk type of person.
And then you have, there are many others, many others. And then you have the masca, which is again, has a negative connotation but at the same time has also a cunning folk vibe to it. So it's more complex than just either the strega or the maga.
So the strega is negative totally. The maga is mainly cunning folk type of figure. It could turn nasty, generally speaking magic practices, the fata is more of a folklore, supernatural entity. And then you have the masca, which is the demonic witch but at the same time is also the cunning folk type of person, because they usually were, next door neighbor who during the day they would do the normal things every person would do. And they, in the night, they would transform themselves into these demonic figures. There are many others, many others. And the variation in the terminology, I think is because of the cultural substratum. Is there being a Spanish influence there? Therefore, you might have a different type of name. Is there being a Greek influence in the region? Then you have a different name. It depends on where you are in Italy, to have different terminology to express the term witch.
[00:49:37] Josh Hutchinson: And can you tell us more about the masca? In one of your articles, you break down the origins of the word and where that might've come from. Can you tell us about that?
[00:49:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah. That was a mental exercise on my part. I wanted to see, because it's such a well-known character or figure, I wanted to see if I could find material evidence of its provenance. So I have chased the etymology of the word, and I have traced it back to believe it or not proto-Indo-European to a proto-Indo- European root of. Now the pronunciation of in European, it's all made up. So forgive me if I just don't pronounce it well, but who knows how they pronounce it? So is mezeg, which meant to knit, plait, and twist. And that came down to Proto-Germanic mask, and it had cognates in all the Germanic dialects. So you find in, you find it in Old High German as max, and that is sixth to ninth century. You have it in the Old German or Old Saxon of eighth, 12th century as masca. You have it in German from the 16th century as masca. So you know through different yeah, Germanic dialects.
So what is this mental exercise on the etymology of the word I, in my article, I throw it out there that the modern masca, which was definitely a witch figure in the Lombard low codes, comes from an even more ancient figure that was associated to bog bodies.
I know this is a bit of a leap of faith, and I say that maybe the original etymology of masca, which means, as we said to knit, plait, twist is perhaps a memory of a practice carried out from Iron Age cultures in Europe to basically deliver bodies into bogs. And they were usually pinned down by knitted material or twigs. So that's the mental exercise.
Now, I have no evidence of that, because we need more work, but we know for example, from Tacitus that certain individuals within certain societies were punished by drowning in marshes or bogs, and they were pinned down into the bogs. So in my article, I'm just wondering if the Lombard witch, masca witch, has survived as a witch figure in modern time, still called masca, actually is a memory of an ancient, sacrificial or punishment of certain individuals not well accepted within specific societies.
We know from Tacitus that the people that were pinned down in bogs were prostitutes or unclean individuals. Not quite sure what that means, but clearly there were individuals that were not well accepted within the society where they practiced this. I don't think there were sacrifices per se, but they were definitely killed because of their perceived crimes.
So could that be, maybe there is still more work to be done, because it's very difficult to bring together the philological interpretation of a term and then find the archeological evidence, an act that we can see in the archeological records that could explain the evolution of an etymology and then can that be transferred to historical figure. That was a mental exercise.
I think it is possible, because bog bodies are a specific, it was not your usual burial. There were reasons, either rituals or social reasons for certain individuals to be dumped into marshy areas. Why were they pinned down? They were, we know that, I dunno if you know what hurdles are, but they are like mesh twigs, and so they were properly kept down in the bog. And because of this mesh situation or even bodies that have been wrapped up, I was just wondering, is there a connection, because the etymology of the word masca takes you all the way back to Proto-Indo-European, meaning knitting, meshing. Is there connection there?
But Yeah, it's all hypothetical.
[00:54:43] Josh Hutchinson: And you talk about the last masca killed in Piedmont.
[00:54:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah.
[00:54:50] Josh Hutchinson: When did that occur?
[00:54:53] Debora Moretti: Early 19th century. And she was the post medieval masca were considered witches, and they were told to possess a specific book that would give them the power to carry out their acts. And the book was called Book of the Fisica. She was accused of having one of these books, and the book apparently had belonged to the family for a very long time. She was accused of causing illness and death to two people in the village. So authorities were called, but nothing was done. Therefore, the people of the village decided to take matter into their own hands.
And they choose two men to have it killed. And these two men were never prosecuted for the murder, because the village basically supported the alibi. Therefore, they were never prosecuted, and yes, she was killed by them just because the village thought that she was a witch.
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[00:56:02] Sarah Jack: I have to tell you that this is a little bit off, and we don't have to keep this in the episode, but I have to tell you, I can't help but think of Dorothy Good right now, Josh.
[00:56:12] Debora Moretti: Again, the connection there is an historical connection to bog bodies and witches. But again it's not a direct connection. So the main direction in the Burgundian laws, so that is. 500 AD. So we are early, early medieval Europe. There is a chapter that says, tell how adulterous women should be treated. And there is a connection, of course, between the adulterous women, prostitutes. And then there is an associations of prostitutes with witches. And adulterous women should be drowned in bogs, basically.
We have the archeological evidence of bog bodies. Then you have Tacitus that mention certain unholy or I can't quite remember what he named them, but certain individuals in society that deserve to be drowned into bogs. And then you have the Burgundian laws that specifically refers to how an adulterous woman and prostitute should be dealt with.
So there is something there. Now we, as Ronald Hutton always say never join the dots, because that is a very long chronological period to assume something. So there is definitely something there. But even in my article, I say, is this too much of a leap of faith because you, you would need to have direct references all the way through. So from, early, early medieval to then post medieval, either Europe or Northern America, to definitely say absolutely there is absolutely a connection between bog bodies and witches. But it's fascinating. I like to think that there is something there. Otherwise I would've not gone through, the etymological research on the word masca. So if I put my scholar cap on, I would say, yeah, we have to be careful because do we have evidence in, so after, let's say after the seventh century AD, do we have evidence of that?
We don't really but as a person who is really passionate about witchcraft studies, yeah. , no even here, even in Europe, there's no association between bog bodies and witchcraft directly. So it's just me working on the masca, which is, Italian. Really. So no bog bodies are all, I think from late bronze age, iron age period type of they do have them here in England as well. Definitely in Scandinavia and Central Europe as well. But not in later periods well, not yet. Who knows, maybe.
[00:58:58] Josh Hutchinson: But the point of going back with the word is basically the words meaning evolved over time to become witch. It started out as a different kind of situation of an unclean person and then evolved somehow.
[00:59:17] Debora Moretti: I only gave you like the shorter road from Proto-Indo-European to the Lombard word masca. But there are more bits in between which allowed me to have an hypothesis on, a theory on this. But yes, we start with something that means, knitting or mesh ending then into a witch figure, which is an incredible, incredibly large leap of faith. I give you that. But I think there is something about it, and when I will have a little bit more time, I will expand this with some philologists so they will know better about the evolution of Proto-Indo-European into then Germanic languages, et cetera. Because I'm not a philologist. Then, yeah, I can look better into the bog bodies, see if we have more later evidence.
So yeah it's intriguing. Absolutely. Just it needs to be taken with a little bit of a pinch of salt. I personally think there is something there, but it needs to be studied in depth. Really.
Marker
[01:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: The masca, what were some of their powers? I know you talk about their spirit coming from their body.
[01:00:28] Debora Moretti: Yes. So they had the ability to operate outside their body. So in folklore evidence that were collected quite recently in the 1980s people remembered, so we are talk, the majority of the people talking about their memories, they were, in 1980, they were around like 70, 80 years old, and they referred to traditions that came from their parents. So we are looking at the end of the 19th century. So they would say that one of the most feared characteristic of the masca was that she would, let's say they were doing some work together in an evening. So the village was gathered together, she would fall asleep and then she would, her soul or spirit would come out of her mouth and she would commit witchcraft acts in a spirit form.
So that was one of the most feared elements of the masca. That way that could fly. And there are some references to how they would, in that form would collect the fat from children. And they would keep this fat in jars hidden in their homes. And then they would use the fat to enhance their magical powers and then to fly further.
And in one of the folk references there is, there was a gentleman who said, I remember in my village. So as I said, yeah, the these folk narratives were collected I think it was 1980s or early 1990s. So the gentleman said, I remember of a masca farfalle, which is butterfly. And she was basically a woman masca, a witch, benign for what the person was saying, who would every so often fly back to her own country, which was France, so she could fly as a butterfly.
So yeah, they had this power of either operating in spirit form, coming out from the bodies through the mouth, or fly around like butterflies.
[01:02:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds so familiar to with New England witches they were, a lot of the evidence that came in was spectral evidence, and it was about the specter of the individual leaving the body and going off to do the nefarious things. And it would fly to Sabbaths and go into people's houses in the night to injure them, make them sick, just torment them in some way, and then return to the person.
And there's stories of, there was one woman who had, I believe, catalepsy, and she would pass out basically. And so they found her body lying there still and revived her. But then in later years, they were looking back on that incident and they're like, yeah, we should have known she was a witch right then, because her soul left her body while she was snoozing.
[01:03:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah, that's why in my PhD I said that the masca is more of a strictly speaking, demonic witch because she would operate, in the same way that demonic witches would operate. So yeah. But that the idea of the masca being the demonic witch was perceived earlier on, even in the Lombard law codes because the masca was somebody who, like a strega a witch about witch would eat a man inside out. So they had supernatural abilities to hurt people from inside out. Absolutely differently from the various witches from the Siena Archive, for example, where you really don't have that.
There are a few elements that they did hypnotize parents inside their own homes to steal children and then steal the fat of the children. But again, they, compared to the quantity of the trial documents, these elements are few in percentage. The remaining they are just, they were practical witches, if you like.
[01:05:03] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And I'm really curious what did the witches do with the baby fat?
[01:05:12] Debora Moretti: In both the Siena archive and then the Novara archives, they would cover themselves with the fat, and then they would be able to fly or being able to summon the devil to fly with the devil. Yeah, it was, it would enhance their powers.
[01:05:33] Josh Hutchinson: And when they flew, would they fly as their human form, or would they always transform into something else, or?
[01:05:45] Debora Moretti: You also have metamorphosis. But usually they would fly on a horse, in fact not even fly. So sometimes once they anointed themselves a goat would appear that's the devil. And the goat would take them to the sabbat. Sometimes is a speaking horse. Sometimes they would fly themselves.
So it depends. There are so many traditions on how to get to the sabbat. There is one common element, though, while in motion they could not mention God, the Virgin Mary, Jesus, or any of the saints. Otherwise, their magical power would disappear, and they will fall down. And there are some of them that will say, and all of a sudden, I woke in the middle of a field covered in bruises, because I said Dio, Maria and Jesu, and all the magic disappeared, and then they became normal again.
[01:06:46] Josh Hutchinson: We had them on broomsticks. Sometimes Satan would appear as a horse or a dog or some animal to them, but usually they would ride on a pole to the sabbat. And
[01:07:01] Sarah Jack: about each other? Isn't there a couple that just rode another witch?
[01:07:06] Josh Hutchinson: There was something where they made somebody ride them. But there were also, there were crashes. There were times where the poles snapped, and they fell to the ground. And that's recorded in their confessions. And there's one story of one, one witch clinging onto the other for dear life, because she was falling off the pole. So they were very elaborate in their descriptions of flight in New England, at least during the Salem trials, when the devil really played such a critical role.
[01:07:44] Debora Moretti: Yeah. I found detailed narration of the food that they would have at the sabbat. Loads of food, high status food. So that is almost what they were wishing, because of course their daily food wasn't that type of food. And all the time the food had no salt in it, because the salt, again, would annihilate the magical power, and sometimes they say basically great variety of food, really lush, but then when they ate it, it tasted charred material, like sand or burned material. So that gives you the idea that even in their narratives, they knew that all that was just an illusion, the illusion of the devil.
[01:08:35] Josh Hutchinson: The salt is very interesting because I've seen that elsewhere used in protective magic to form a circle around you of protection, that kind of thing.
[01:08:50] Debora Moretti: We still have in Italy. I remember seeing my mom spreading salt at the bottom of our external staircase to make sure that there was no evil coming in. And we still say, do not spill salt. And if you do, then you have to chuck a little bit behind your shoulder to make sure, so the salt has always had magic, a counter witchcraft or counter magic properties of it was an apotropaic mineral. It's being used in antiquity, as well. Yeah.
[01:09:22] Josh Hutchinson: I just had this idea of the salt as, we talk about sympathetic magic and where a property, there's a transference of some property, of something that's like another thing. And the salt, because it preserves the food against rot and decay. Maybe it also protects the person in other ways.
[01:09:51] Debora Moretti: That is very possible. Very possible. Also, remember that salt has healing properties. What is the first thing you do when you cut yourself if you don't have whatever the name of the, alcohol based solutions, you just use hot water and salt. So yeah, it's healing property and preservation of food. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Sympathetic magic right there.
[01:10:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. You'd mentioned some other sympathetic magic earlier. Was that common in witch trial cases?
[01:10:31] Debora Moretti: Absolutely. The most used spells, for example to prevent fertility in a man, one of the most common spells were the knotting of the string. So you can see the, so you are knotting something therefore the man will stop being fertile, for example. And then, yes, the the spell of the magnet. So it's literally a piece of magnet that was baptized. So you see, they were practicing magic within their own cultural background. So they were religious people, they were Catholics. So for something like a magnet to be active, to be magical, to kick in the sympathetic element of the magical practice, it had to be baptized.
And this was, the baptizing random objects, was a thing, because we find sermons that, stating this ignorant, backwards, people bring all sorts of things to be hidden under the altar to be baptized. So the priest would not know what he was baptizing to give the magical power to certain objects, because the church itself had a magical element. And that's why amongst the different apotropaic object, you would also have saints figurine carried on the body or prayers carried on the body. Their perception of atropaic was vast and certainly included liturgical objects, liturgy itself. Everything was, could be used, in a different way from what.
[01:12:20] Josh Hutchinson: And people still wear protective medallions and amulets today.
[01:12:26] Debora Moretti: Yes, absolutely. This again, is one of those human element, that never goes away. And I think there is at least for me, it's comforting to know, because I use amulets, I wear certain type of stones in my jewelry or a specific metal in my jewelry. And it is for me, a sort of comfort to know that what I am doing has been done for thousands of years, but also that is because this is my perception of what witchcraft is, or not necessarily witchcraft, because witchcraft was almost created with the demonization of magical practices.
But yeah, magic is a sort of, you are nowadays, why do you practice magic is to have, bring control to your life, to almost shape the universe around you so you are in control. And for what I read from the, not all of them, but a good percentage of the witchcraft trials documents. That's why some of them did that, because they say that I had no bread for three days. I had no food for two days. Hence doing this. And also there is a practical element is Caterina, she made money, good money in selling her spells.
So yes, there is a psychological element to magical practices. So they're almost a way, a coping mechanism. So if life is particularly hard on you, you try to take back control, and I think as it applies today, it did apply back then. And there is the element and then there is the practical element.
So people either truly were magical practitioners and they made money out of it, or they pretended to be magical practitioners, so they could basically almost force people to help them. Otherwise, they would put spells on them, even if they were not magical practitioners.
[01:14:40] Josh Hutchinson: Was there anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap up?
[01:14:46] Debora Moretti: We have to have more social media coverage, academic study of witchcraft and magic has to have more media coverage. Because in the past tended to be more for specialists, where I think it has to go out there to a wider public. So thank you very much. Thank you to your listeners.
[01:15:08] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

[01:15:19] Mary Bingham: The name Putnam has caused many to cringe when we talk about the Salem Witch Trials. After all, some of them were the main accusers in 1692. But only some of them. In fact, only a small few, Thomas Junior, his wife and daughter, Ann Senior and Ann Junior, Thomas's brother Edward, and Jonathan, a cousin of Thomas and Edward. If I missed a Putnam or two, it's not more than three. Here's the deal. My fellow volunteer at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, John Fellows, readily tells our visitors the name Putnam is like the name Smith. To further that point, archivist for the town of Danvers and the historian Richard Trask says that the Putnam clan made up 12% of the entire population of no more than 550 living in Salem Village in the late 1600s. These Putnams included the families of the daughters who married and started families of their own.
So what were the views of the other Putnams regarding the witchcraft allegations? One can't speak for all of them, but we know one thing for sure. Several signed the petition in defense of Rebecca Nurse. One of them was my 10 times great-grandfather, Captain John Putnam. It's interesting to note that Captain John was at that time in heated arguments with the Esty and Towne families regarding the boundary dispute between the towns of Topsfield and Salem Village in Massachusetts Bay Colony, British America.
These families with whom Captain John was ready to do physical battle were close relatives of Rebecca Nurse and her sister, Mary Esty, both hanged in 1692. However, Captain John never accused Rebecca Nurse or Mary Esty of witchcraft, as did his nephew Thomas and his family, never. The other Putnams who signed the petition in defense of Rebecca Nurse were Captain John's wife Rebecca, Jonathan Putnam, Benjamin Putnam, Sarah Putnam, and Joseph Putnam.
Just because someone was named Putnam doesn't mean they were accusers. Hopefully, I have laid this misconception to rest, for a few minutes, anyway. Thank you.

[01:17:53] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:17:54] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[01:18:05] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3) weekly news update. Today is World Day Against Witch Hunts. Humanity, has not yet gotten past the fearful behavior of hunting vulnerable people, witches. Witch hunting targets the vulnerable and innocent.
Please join me right now and have a 30-second moment of reflection for those who have been executed as witches.
If you would like to spend more time reflecting, you should do so and pause the episode.
On August 10th, 2020, World Day Against Witch Hunts was started in order to recognize the violence in at least 41 countries around the globe, such as countries in Africa, Oceania, and Latin America, where fearful, panicked people target vulnerable, scared people because of witchcraft fear and blame.
The victims are hunted, tortured, and often killed. The inaugural World Day Against Witch Hunts was in 2020. This date of remembrance was chosen to honor the attack on a woman in Papua New Guinea on August 10th, 2012. She was accused of being a witch by residents of her village and tortured for days. She survived the violence, was able to escape, and was brought to safety with the help of advocate and Swiss nun, Sister Lorena Jenal. And so the International Catholic Mission Society launched August 10th as the day to draw attention to the devastating consequences of sorcery accusation-related violence and witch hunts, to connect experts and advocates, and to grow awareness and pool violence prevention and education initiatives.
Work with us on growing this day of remembrance, and take time to post words like August 10th, World Day Against Witch Hunts 2023, in order to amplify this annual day of education and remembrance. We want it to be an annual anticipated day of recognition for the victims and advocates facing this crisis daily. It is a memorial day and a day of education. Worldwide, multitudes of victims do not have a physical memorial, but they now have the World Day against Witch Hunts. Tell your friends about it and send them our way to learn more.
Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. Have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump in to end witch hunts with your particular abilities, influence, and network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing, long-term, collective effort for all of us to participate in. You can learn more by visiting our website and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country-specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe.
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[01:21:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:21:44] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:21:45] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:21:51] Sarah Jack: We'll be back to talk with you next week.
[01:21:54] Josh Hutchinson: So subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and you'll have that episode downloaded and ready to go when it comes out on Thursday.
[01:22:03] Sarah Jack: Visit our website thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, acquaintances, and neighbors about the show.
[01:22:11] Sarah Jack: We thank you for supporting our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit us at endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:22:19] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

August 10, 2023

Karin Helmstaedt on Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

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Show Notes

Learn about witch trials in the Holy Roman Empire and the deadly witch hunts occurring today. We interview Deutsche Welle presenter Karin Helmstaedt about her documentary, “Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past,” which you can watch on YouTube. Karin tells us about her ancestors burned as witches in Winningen, Germany, and we learn nuances of the trials in that area. We discuss the current global crisis of violence against persons accused of witchcraft and talk about the many similarities between witch hunts across time and space. We also connect historical social injustices to our advocacy questions: Why do we hunt witches? How do we hunt witches? How do we stop hunting witches?
Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past
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Transcript

[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with journalist Karin Helmstaedt about her documentary, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past, which you can watch on YouTube.
[00:00:37] Sarah Jack: The video covers European witch hunts of the past, as well as the modern global crisis of attacks on persons accused of witchcraft.
[00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: Check the video out after you listen to this episode. The link is in the show description.
[00:00:49] Sarah Jack: Karin told us about her ancestors accused of witchcraft in what is now Germany.
[00:00:53] Josh Hutchinson: And we spoke of our ancestors accused in New England.
[00:00:57] Sarah Jack: We talked about why women are more likely to be accused of witchcraft.
[00:01:01] Josh Hutchinson: And covered other similarities between witch hunts across time and space.
[00:01:05] Sarah Jack: The sheer number of attacks occurring today is eye-opening.
[00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: Historian Wolfgang Behringer says there are now more people dying in witch hunts than ever before.
[00:01:16] Sarah Jack: Tanzania alone has lost upwards of 30,000 people to witch-hunts since independence in 1961.
[00:01:23] Josh Hutchinson: And these attacks are happening in over 60 nations today.
[00:01:28] Sarah Jack: Affecting hundreds of thousands of people every year with psychological and physical violence that leads to neglect, displacement, homelessness, physical disability, and even death.
[00:01:38] Josh Hutchinson: What lessons can we learn from past witch hunts?
[00:01:41] Sarah Jack: And how can we apply those lessons today?
[00:01:44] Josh Hutchinson: Witch hunts are not just a dark chapter from the past.
[00:01:47] Sarah Jack: Here is Karin Helmstaedt, a Canadian born journalist, moderator, and TV host based in Berlin, Germany. She studied in Toronto, Montreal, and Paris, and embarked on her journalistic career in sports, writing for newspapers and magazines before making the move into broadcasting. Since 1999, she's been one of the most constant faces on Germany's foreign broadcaster, Deutsche Welle, presenting a number of news and culture magazine formats. She currently co-hosts DW's Arts and Culture News in English. Fluent in three languages, Karin is also a sought after moderator and consultant for conferences and events around Europe, with experience in a broad range of sectors, including communications, food and agriculture, and rail transport.
[00:02:28] Josh Hutchinson: We appreciate your film, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past. We've watched that several times and are so appreciative that you're drawing attention to the subject. Can you tell our listeners about your film?
[00:02:45] Karin Helmstaedt: Yes, I can. Thank you for having me. It started off as an idea for a format that we developed at my network where I am currently working, Deutsche Welle. And I had this idea in my head for a very long time and didn't really know how I was going to approach it, because I knew that we had an ancestor in our family who had been burned as a witch.
And it seemed to me that I hadn't seen any material done on witch hunts in the time that I've been at Deutsche Welle, which is really quite a long time. So I pitched the project, and it was accepted and got started with researching the witch hunts in Germany and of course in this particular community where my ancestor was.
And I tracked down a historian who, Walter Rummel, who is just amazing because it was really just like a meeting of the minds because he did his PhD on the witch trials in that entire area of southwestern Germany. And there were a lot of them right along the Mosel River, and it was so interesting because when I called him and asked him and told him that I had this ancestor and her name was Margarethe Kröber, he was totally excited because he knew exactly who I was talking about, and he had literally gone through all of the witch trials in sort of several communities in a relatively large radius around that area and had analyzed them in terms sociologically and looking at what had motivated all of these particular cases. And so I was able to do a lot of research, a lot of really specific research with him into her case.
And during that, I discovered, of course, that there were all kinds of other relatives, if you will. They were more distant relatives, perhaps. She's like a direct line and a kind of a great grandmother, 11 generations back, that would be. But I discovered all of these other people who had been affected and of course the entire families, and the connections that I got from Walter were a couple of other historians, Rita Voltmer being a very important one, but Wolfgang Behringer also, who was really key in alerting me to the fact that there were still witch hunts going on today. And so that in the end ended up being the arc of the story for the film.
And that's how I ended up including the chapter on modern witch hunts and the things that are going on in places like Africa and Papua New Guinea and many places in southern South Asia and also in Latin America. We couldn't fit it all in, obviously, to the film, but we had to do a bit of a bit of a sorting out.
But that's essentially how the film came to be. And we're very happy with it. I worked on it with a colleague of mine called Ulrike Sommer is her name, and we spent a lot of time really going through it all with a fine tooth comb and condensing, condensing, because of course we didn't have hours and hours that we could fill, but we're very happy with the result. We're very, certainly, very happy with the response.
[00:05:55] Sarah Jack: It's been a great response. What would you like us to know about her? And I'm curious about how you knew about her history.
[00:06:04] Karin Helmstaedt: That's an interesting story, because when I was a young teenager, I came to Germany for the first time with my family. My father is from East Germany originally and married my mom who's Canadian. So we, I grew up in Canada, but we came to Europe to visit for the first time and were visiting relatives of his mother down in the Rhein -Mosel area.
And we visited this one aunt of his, and he told her I guess, that we were going to drive through Winningen and retrace some steps. I think there are some grave sites there as well. I don't remember those very well, because what stuck out for me was that, when this aunt said, "if you're going to Winningen, you have to visit the Hexenstein."
And my father said, "oh, what's that?" And so he told me this when we got into the car, and of course I was 14 years old and know I was very impressionable. And the idea that we had a witch in the family, this was absolutely amazing to me. And we went to this monument, which of course is featured in the film. It's the oldest, I now know, the oldest monument to persecuted witches in Germany. It was erected in about 1925, I think. And her name is right on there. And it was just a really, it made a huge impression on me, this idea that somebody in our family all these hundreds of years ago had suffered this fate and was actually memorialized on this stone.
It's like an obelisk, and it never left me. And it was a story that I put in on my back burner, for many years. I probably should have done something about it earlier, but you know how life is, you think things happen, and you have kids, and you move, and I ended up moving to Europe, and yeah, eventually just decided, it was also interesting because it was during the pandemic that I decided I've gotta tackle this story. I've gotta do something and make use of this time and possibly start thinking about actually doing something about this story. So that's how it started. It really goes decades back.
[00:08:02] Josh Hutchinson: That reminds me so much of my own story of how I got interested in the witch trials, because my grandfather was from Danvers, Massachusetts, which used to be Salem Village, and there is the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, the property of one of the well-known victims of the Salem Witch Trials. And at that property there's a monument to her and there's also a monument to people who defended her, and my ancestor, Joseph Hutchinson, is on that monument, but the way they spelled the name, it's J O S apostrophe H, so it looks like it says Josh Hutchinson, which of course is my own name.
[00:08:52] Karin Helmstaedt: It is your own name.
[00:08:53] Josh Hutchinson: I saw that in stone at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, and I've just been fascinated with the witch trials since then.
[00:09:01] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, it's an interesting thing to look at a kind of a legacy like that. And interestingly enough, when I went to Winningen and started the research, I asked about that monument. There's very little known about the motivation for having put it up or who exactly put it up. I couldn't find an awful lot of information about that. There are mistakes on it as well. It's not complete. And as I discovered, the mother of my ancestor was actually the very first woman burnt as a witch in Winningen, so the whole thing started with her, and the date of her execution is actually wrong, as well, if you look into all of the trial records.
So Walter Rummel ended up being really helpful to me because I bought, I, I found an old secondhand copy. I searched and searched on Amazon and found an old secondhand copy of his thesis, which is a book, and spent ages reading it, and just my jaw just kept dropping further and further, and I would get on the phone to my dad and say, "you have no idea how many people." Really quite a lot of people, because interestingly enough, of her generation, Margarethe's generation, not only she was accused of witchcraft, but also her cousin, as I say her mother already was killed 11 years before, her aunt, so the mother's sister, and then every single one of her brothers and sister-in-law. So in other words of that one particular branch of the Kröber family, they executed all the spouses. So that's interesting and we can talk a little bit more about why these things happened and what Walter Rummel was able to tell me, because even he found that pretty extraordinary that a family was so taken to the cleaners, as it were, in in that sense.
[00:10:52] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Do you wanna speak more about that right now?
[00:10:55] Karin Helmstaedt: It's interesting, because the historians that I spoke to, so Rita and Wolfgang and Walter, and I spent really a long time talking to all three of them. The belief is generally accepted that all of the people who were burned for witchcraft or accused of witchcraft were healers and wise women and cunning women, midwives, herbalists, all that kind of thing.
And so that was, of course, one of my first questions when I was talking to them. And they told me that, based on their research, and this doesn't necessarily have to be the case for everywhere else, like, for instance, in places like Scotland or in places like some of the eastern European countries, but certainly in that area of Germany, and in their experience and their analyses of the trial records, which are copious in many regions, in certain regions of Germany, and in this one in particular, there's hardly a midwife to be found. That's really not the case for any of these victims.
So what was at work was social ladder climbing, if you will. There were sort of tiers of society, and there were levels of society that essentially wanted to take out slightly more powerful or wealthy individuals. But she came from quite a wealthy winemaking family and married into my father's mother's family, so the, that's where the Kröber name comes from. And that her husband was a judge, and he was one of a long line of judges. And afterwards his son became a judge. And a lot of these professions seemed for a while to be handed down. So you were in a bit of a social set, and it seems that another branch of his own family was not happy with the amount of wealth, I suppose, that was accumulated, the amount of influence that they had in the town, and I think it was very much a tactic to go after these men by literally taking out their wives, accusing their wives of witchcraft. And there was also the one man involved, as well, and he was one of the wealthiest people in the town at the time.
[00:13:15] Josh Hutchinson: And you share in the film that women were about 80% of the victims in the European witch hunts and that they continue to be targeted today, as predominantly women are accused of witchcraft. Why do you think that is that women are more likely to be accused of witchcraft?
[00:13:38] Karin Helmstaedt: That's also one of these interesting questions that I think obviously there is the misogynistic element, the fact that women had a lesser position in society at the time, and there were reasons to want to get rid of women, to get rid of uncomfortable women. But it's, I guess what was very interesting to me was to learn just how many men had been involved, and it was almost always a question of wanting to usurp their influence and their power and their wealth. With the women, it's tricky, I think. The misogynist element is there, and it was possibly very much sparked by some of those early texts by people like Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum, which I mentioned also in the documentary.
These seminal texts that described what a witch was about gave rise to a lot of the imagery that was created around witches and witchcraft. And those were primarily female, simply because someone like Heinrich Kramer actually had a real bone to pick with women. He was somebody who had tried to go after a woman in Austria for witchcraft, and I think that effort was foiled, actually. And then he left Austria and wrote that book, and a lot of the trouble started there. There was trouble, there were ideas of witchcraft that had already been created by the church, but he really crystallized a lot of that.
And great levels of description such that then the art world, and the publication of that book actually coincided also with the invention of the printing press, pretty close together, such that these texts, but also the ideas that were then able to fuel an artist's imagination, could spread a lot faster.
And I think that's how the ideas of female evil and the ability of women to be closer to the devil and their tendencies to wanna be closer to the devil, I think that really took off in the imagination of a lot of people at the time.
It's interesting. I guess one of the biggest surprises for me also was, there were several things that were surprising. First of all, you're surprised to hear that actually it wasn't midwives and herbalists and these wise women. Second thing was that men were involved and so that was interesting.
But the really shocking thing to me was that basically half, over a third to half of the witches, of the people who were executed as witches, in the entire 300 years of the great European witch hunts happened in the German-speaking area. That is something really interesting and makes the whole thing incredibly complex, because you're looking at an area of the map, the Holy Roman Empire it was at the time, which was much, much bigger than modern day Germany, so that included areas of Northern Italy and actually parts of France. It also included Austria and Switzerland, the whole German speaking area. It's really shocking to think that those numbers have been, well, largely ignored for a very long time. People haven't really paid attention to that.
You think back to a number of the traumatic things that were happening in that part of the world at the time. And my ancestor was killed in the midst of the 30 Years War, which was just devastating and there are so many factors that influence the number of witch Hunts in Germany. That it, we probably need three hours of a podcast to go through the history. But one of the things that was so influential was climate, and this was also complete news to me. There was a phenomenon called the Little Ice Age that was going on in much of northern Europe for an incredible amount of time, literally from the 14th century all the way into the mid 19th century. That there was a very stark cooling and a lot of years of really poor harvests.
And this climate element had a huge impact on Germany, first of all, because it's in Northern Europe, but Germany's also landlocked. Just in terms of its geographical positioning, it was really hard hit by that phenomenon, by the Little Ice Age and unable to, it didn't have sea access to mean that it could necessarily get grain and get supplies from elsewhere very easily.
So people were really down and out, suffering great hardship at the hands of these marauding armies, the Swedes and the French, and everybody who was marching back and forth over their territory during the 30 Years War. And the other thing that I learned from Wolfgang Behringer. Wolfgang Behringer was the first one to actually do this analysis of climate and come up with this theory that actually of the 300 years of European witch hunts, it went in cycles, and you had three waves, actually. And those three waves are, interestingly enough, always about a, an entire lifetime. I guess if you look at a at the length of a long lifetime, 70 to 80 years, and every 70 to 80 years things would pick up again until they finally, eventually completely died down.
It's very interesting that climate affected things and forms of settlement, according to Wolfgang Behringer, were also very important. So for instance, there were hardly any witch hunts in places that were extremely rural, this is in Germany, anyway, or in nomadic peoples. They tended to concentrate in places where people are in a village situation and where people are eventually, as in Germany, getting crowded.
That's the other thing about Germany is that it's actually always had a lot of people in a relatively small geographic space. So when you end up with these phenomena of towns building up and people are sitting on top of one another, that's when you get a lot of the comparing what you have with what I have and a lot of these developments of social situations that can possibly be a fertile ground then for that kind of, and then the weather doesn't work and then the harvest fails and then somebody dies and then there are all these reasons, the same reasons that we see in the modern witch hunts today.
The things that are happening in Africa, for instance, it's the same kinds of patterns that reproduce themselves. So it's always a question of forms of community and whether those forms, whether they're somebody is trying to get an advantage. And unfortunately we seem to repeatedly tend to do that.
[00:20:31] Sarah Jack: There's so many striking comparisons, and one of the things that you said a few minutes ago really made me think of the modern was when you talked about the multitude of victims in the German history, that we don't really fathom it. People don't really talk about it, understand it, and that is part of with the modern. People don't have a concept of how rampant it is for the modern victims.
[00:20:58] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, it was upwards of 25,000 people in Germany, which is just a staggering number really when you consider that it's between 50 and 60,000 all told. So that's including places like Iceland, Norway, Sweden, all of the other countries where witch hunts did happen. 25,000 people.
And I really think something really interesting happened. Once the film was online and people were watching it, people started responding, I had a number of really interesting responses from women in Germany who said, "why haven't we looked into this more deeply in terms of what this can mean or has meant or means continually for female identity in Germany? How many cases of generational trauma are there that have never been considered?"
And when you look at some of the work that's been done in Scotland, also, for instance, by the Witches of Scotland, Claire Mitchell and Zoe Venditozzi, who've been doing that fantastic campaign up there. They've looked into a lot of the cases in Scotland and actually talked to social scientists who have indicated that when you take a family like that, you completely snuff out their wealth, usurp their fields and their lands and possibly even their livelihoods. You completely demote that family. That family has to start again from zero, and possibly those families actually never get back to the position that they had or never get back to the actual. It has a knock on effect or a domino effect, if you will, very far down the line in generations.
That was something that was really interesting to me, because I think it's interesting to look at what people have said, and I've had a lot of response from people who have, like yourself, Josh, who have some relative that was affected in the Salem Witch Trials or in Connecticut or in Scotland or in England, and the ideas are really so multifaceted in terms of how these particular tragedies have affected the different families. The stories are as long as my arm, the list it's amazing. So I think every case is individual and every family is individual and a lot of these communities have had different ways of dealing with things.
Some of them had just a few families affected. But a town like Winningen, where my ancestor came from, we're looking at between 160, 200 people at the time. 21 people were killed, 24 were accused, so three managed to get off, which was also remarkable, but only happened towards the end of things. When you consider the number of families that were affected then, those 21 people that got lost, and you look at that one branch of my family where literally every spouse was knocked off and those people had to go on and very often married again. But my ancestor actually already had two children, so those two children also they lost their mother. They were six and three at the time. And that was also a really interesting thing, even when I was researching with Walter, because he was pretty much also thinking that it was mostly older women. It was mostly older women who actually had some status, possibly widowed. And here was my ancestor, a mother of two boys, six and three years old. So there were a lot of these stereotypes that just disappeared through the detailing of this story.
[00:24:32] Sarah Jack: I really loved that you were able to do that with your narrative.
[00:24:37] Karin Helmstaedt: It was very lucky. And again, it's because of this, of the fantastic treasure trove of trial records that are available for that area. It's not the case everywhere. It's, for instance, in France, it's very interesting. A lot of stuff did happen in France, but there's relatively speaking, little documentation about it. I've talked at length with Rita Voltmer about that. When you don't have that documentation, then you really are guessing. You're taking, records come from everywhere. You're looking at diaries, you're looking at, Walter was able to analyze, for instance, all of the receipts from the time, for instance.
One of the stories that was really shocking in the case of my ancestor is she was actually, I had to fudge this a little bit in the film, because she was actually killed on the same day as another woman. There were two women killed on the same day, and they had an enormous party after that was over, and it's detailed. It's absolutely crazy the amount of detail that exists about that particular. It was like a bonfire. You've got two women literally burning on this pyre, and they had all kinds of wine, and there were local, what would you call them, restaurateur, who just made a killing on this kind of thing. And that's all documented that these things happened.
It was absolutely shocking that so much was available, and yet when you see how much is available, for instance, another really interesting detail of the trials, the trial records in that area, is that most of them were written for about 15 to 20 years. They were written by one scribe. It's the same handwriting over and over again. And this guy, I don't exactly know where he lived. I did figure out what his name is, but his handwriting, very, very beautiful 17th century script. And you go through pages and pages and pages and pages of this stuff.
And at one point Walter said to me, this guy, he wrote them all at the time, so he was literally just moving around the communities when a trial came and needed to be protocoled. And we're talking, this guy was present for the torture. He was present for the accusation, for the witch commission basically accusing the women, and then they were tortured, and then they were executed. So there were all these phases, and this is, it's all documented like a diary. But you didn't necessarily have that wealth of information in other places.
[00:27:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there's so many parallels that I know our listeners who are familiar with witch trials in other areas will pick up on. On the documentation, Salem is well documented, but the other New England witch trials are not.
You have a lot of the same things. The ratio of men to women is about the same. It's something like 80 to 85% were women in New England. Salem was a little bit heavier with the men. There was maybe a quarter of the victims were men. But you have the same things going on with the Little Ice Age, the crop failures, the storms. You have the situation where people believe it's the midwives and healers, but it really wasn't. You have warfare or tension as if war is coming played into it, the local economics played into it. In Salem, overcrowding played a role, because there were refugees from warfare that came into Essex County, where Salem was the seat. And so there were a lot of extra people vying for resources, as well. So there's really just, it's remarkable how the European, New England, and modern-day witch trials, it flows.
[00:28:35] Karin Helmstaedt: There's so much. Yeah. That's so interesting what you said about the overcrowding, and the other thing that comes into it, of course, is religion. And another really surprising thing that I discovered, because everybody thinks the Catholic Church was the main motor of the whole thing, and Walter and Wolfgang Behringer basically told me that was not necessarily the case in this area. And interestingly enough, that particular community, Winningen, was a Protestant community. So we're talking, we're post reformation now, and the reformation happened in, I guess it was 1517, it's when it started. Martin Luther was actually quite keen or quite a sort of an encourager of witch hunts. There wasn't necessarily on our side in that sense.
But you had this Protestant community surrounded by other Catholic communities, and then you had a kind of a bit of a pressure cooker situation that developed because there used to be, and I forget what the word was for them in German now, but there used to be basically sort of seers who would go around to the Protestant communities and check to make sure that everybody was behaving properly and minding the new doctrine and not stepping astray with all of the ritualization of the Catholic religion was left behind by the Protestants, so they were really very strict, and there really was a kind of a situation that developed where they felt they had to be the more chaste community, the community that was more on the ball, that was paying attention to all of this possible influence of the devil. And it turns out that some, many Protestant communities were actually more zealous in going after people for witchcraft than Catholic ones, which is also a little bit counter to what we tend to hear and believe. But it's interesting that France, which is a predominantly Catholic country, Portugal, Spain, they had much lower incidents of witch trials than Germany did. Although Germany had a lot of Roman Catholicism still at the time. Obviously there was huge tension with the Reformation and then the Counter Reformation.
But even if you look, for instance, in the difference between Scotland and Ireland. Scotland was predominantly Protestant, and the witch trials there were really fired on by King James VI. And in Ireland, where they were Catholic, I think there were three or four victims, like you can count them on one hand. So that's a really interesting thing to look at. It's really interesting to look at those numbers and to look at the fact that up in Sweden, they were also actually Protestant, I think in the Norwegian area, as well, where witch trials happened. A lot of the things that you think you knew, or that I thought I knew and many people thought they knew are not necessarily the case.
And yet these, all these parallels exist. And the one thing that I remember Rita Voltmer saying to me that she couldn't believe that people were still thinking that it was midwives and herbalists, because there really is so much evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, there probably are a few communities where that, those kind of women did end up in difficult straits, as well.
You can never blanket statement anything about it, because Europe is complicated at best today, and it certainly was complicated back then.
[00:32:03] Josh Hutchinson: This idea of a religious cleansing or purification that you bring up, I think is important in the European witch trials. We spoke with Mary W. Craig about Scotland, and when the Kirk became Protestant, they were getting rid of the old Catholic rituals, and they also came down harsh on people who had the still pre-Catholic mythology and what they termed to be superstitious beliefs.
So it was really the heavily Protestant areas that were seeking this cleansing. And there were lower incidents in like the Highlands and Islands, which were still more Catholic. The Kirk didn't have as much control there.
[00:32:55] Karin Helmstaedt: It is super interesting and the other thing that comes to my mind when you talk about that with sort of the religious tension is, and what had a huge effect on the German, the prevalence in Germany, is the governance structure as well. So the governance structure in the Holy Roman Empire was incredibly fragmented. You had all these little kingdoms and fiefdoms and principalities, and some of them in the area that we're talking about with my ancestor were actually governed by religious figures. And in this particular case, there was one Catholic and one Protestant. It was actually a dual influence that was going on there.
And when you had that kind of fragmented governance from the top, what it allowed was less centralization in terms of the laws. And what happened was that you ended up having these situations like a poor harvest or something terrible has happened in a community. And it was the people, it was actually usually a bit of a grassroots movement that decided this person is a witch or that person is dangerous for our community, let's go after them. And the pressure from the bottom was difficult to counter for these sort of fragmented governance structures. They couldn't necessarily control all of these small communities, which is why you had many cases of localized witch trials in this area around the Mosel, and you can just go through all those communities, and there were witch trials everywhere.
[00:34:34] Josh Hutchinson: That's actually another theme that I've noticed in England and New England, that witch trials occurred largely at times when the government had less control. In England, you have the Matthew Hopkins witch hunt, and that occurred during the civil wars, when Parliament and the King were vying for power, and in Connecticut, the colony of Connecticut started witch hunting in 1647. They didn't get a charter from the king to be a colony until 1662, which is when the executions ended before their governor returned with the charter in 1663, they had the last execution in Connecticut, and then Salem also, Massachusetts, the king had revoked their charter, and they just received a new charter in the year 1692, so there was all this weaker central government.
[00:35:37] Karin Helmstaedt: It's interesting that, I mentioned France earlier, and France had a very centralized system, and that meant, for instance, that if you were somewhere in the middle of the country and decided you wanted to accuse your neighbor of being a witch, you ended up having to take that case to Paris and prove it.
And that centralized system alone was what meant that it was much, much harder to actually bring people to a death sentence for witchcraft in France than it was in Germany. In Germany, you ended up having these local witch commissions, which were severely under pressure by their local populations, and with all of the other motors that were happening, the somebody wanting to gain an advantage here or there, and and that's why a lot of real chaos happened, certainly in that period between 1630.
And there's another community in Germany the city of Bamberg, you might have heard of, is down in Bavaria or in Northern Bavaria. And it was just decimated back around the same time, between 1628 and 1632, I think. So again, right smack in the middle of the 30 Years War, and I think over a thousand people were burnt there. And you ended up literally with, I think it was Walter who quoted one of the, there were the writings of some religious man, and I should figure out exactly who that was, that I can quote it properly, but there was, these religious eminences would travel through the countryside. And this one made an observation that the entire countryside was literally smoking pyres. And that's a very powerful and brutal image, and that's what things pretty much looked like around that time. Bamberg is also a very interesting place to visit if you are interested in witch trials, just because it also has a very tragic legacy.
[00:37:37] Josh Hutchinson: I used to live pretty close to there in Schweinfurt.
[00:37:41] Karin Helmstaedt: Oh.
[00:37:41] Josh Hutchinson: My dad was in the Army, so I was a child, but yeah, we were in that region.
[00:37:47] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah. Beautiful area.
[00:37:48] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yeah. Gorgeous. I loved it.
[00:37:51] Sarah Jack: Could you tell us what the witch commission was?
[00:37:54] Karin Helmstaedt: It was basically a group of people who were local magistrates, but not necessarily all, groups of local men who had the backing of the local governance, and there were usually about five or six of them that would come together and then create a bit of a power node within the community. And once you got denounced to them, then you had to prove your innocence.
And the interesting thing with the trials, the way they happened in this area of Germany is that they insisted on a confession. You deny that you're a witch, it's not a confession. And so torture was used in order to extract that confession. And once the confession came, then you had admitted you were a witch. You had lied under duress, under the duress of torture, but you were at least able to be executed and have your soul go to heaven. So the whole religious element came into play there, as well, that you had to be exonerated in a religious sense. You had to be cleansed. And that's of course why the bodies were burnt.
It's interesting that people also always think that witches were burned at the stake. They weren't necessarily in in a lot of places. As in Salem, a lot of people were hanged. In Germany, what happened, there were people who were burnt alive, but in this particular community, and with my ancestor, they beheaded them first and then actually just burnt the bodies. But the idea of burning the bodies was to completely cleanse this mortal shell that had been sullied by the devil.
[00:39:48] Sarah Jack: What did the shaving, how did that play into that? Was that part of the cleansing steps or was it humiliation?
[00:39:56] Karin Helmstaedt: That was, yeah, exactly. That was something that happened during the interrogations. And they did in Germany what they called a peinliche befragung, which is essentially equivalent to a torture session. So it's an interrogation that becomes extremely physical and involves a lot of duress for the victims, and there were a lot of things that they employed. For instance, sleep deprivation was probably the simplest and one of the most perfidious techniques, simply because of course, once people had been deprived of sleep long enough and physically harmed so much, then eventually you're willing to admit anything just to make it stop, just to make this agony stop.
But the shaving was for two reasons. One, it was humiliation, especially with the men. The men were shaved completely, beards were completely taken off. But it was also with the idea of being able to locate this devil's mark, which at the time they believed every witch would have. You were pretty unlucky if you had something like a large, conspicuous mole or any kind of conspicuous birthmark. Something like that, of course, could be construed as something like that, and that's one of the reasons that they shaved their bodies as completely as possible. But it definitely also had a, an element of humiliation.
[00:41:11] Josh Hutchinson: And two of those themes you just spoke to are also present in the modern day witch hunts. In your documentary, you spoke with the woman who was shaved, and you showed images of someone who had been burned. And recently in Nigeria, a woman was burned alive, and that's garnered a lot of attention.
[00:41:39] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah. We haven't talked about Leo Igwe yet, have we? And Leo is someone I discovered really on the basis of the fact that I had learned this from Wolfgang Behringer that there were so many witch trials going on in the modern world, which of course, if you haven't been paying attention to that, it's amazing how many people still comment after watching the film that they had no idea that this was going on.
Researching further, I found Leo Igwe and talked to him, and he has this advocacy group, the Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and the tales that he can tell will just curl your hair. It's happening all over the place in multiple countries in Africa. And it's interesting that, from what I understand, it isn't necessarily there always something where the communities themselves are using the word witch. That's an English word that we've imposed upon it, but the mechanism is the same. Something has happened in the community. Somebody needs to be scapegoated, and it ends up being a woman or an older person, who for some reason is either easy to get rid of, and possibly there's something to be gained by getting rid of that person.
The mechanisms are all the same, but they're not necessarily being called witches. They are being accused also even by local healer people who decide, okay, let's get this person outta the way. So there's a lot of, I think it's just the same societal mechanisms that are happening there, and we call it witch trials, but it's not necessarily how those communities are understanding it with that particular word.
[00:43:28] Sarah Jack: They're finding the culprits of misfortunes and those culprits are using powers outside of natural phenomenon to influence.
[00:43:38] Karin Helmstaedt: What is going on in so many places in Africa, and so many of the cases that Leo Igwe is dealing with, is just utterly brutal situations, what we showed in our film, the women being banished or having to literally escape to these witch camps and witch villages, which are places that are essentially just a refuge for women who can no longer be a part of their family. They can no longer be a part of their community. It's really tragic.
[00:44:07] Sarah Jack: And did you visit a witch camp? I wondered how you got your interviews with those women. They were really powerful interviews.
[00:44:15] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And I have to do a shout out to Isaac Kaledzi, who's our correspondent in Ghana, and we worked very closely with him, and he was able to travel to Northern Ghana because Gambaga is up in the north. It's quite difficult to access. It's also quite difficult because of the language differences. So he had to find a translator and was able to visit and get that footage for us. So unfortunately I didn't get to visit it myself. On the other hand, it's a pretty tough journey. But Leo Igwe has done field work there, so he's definitely been to a number of those villages.
[00:44:50] Sarah Jack: Seeing the captured testimony of the women, seeing them visually, knowing what Leo's message has been, and then it just, it was really brought together well, and I think, I just think it's so important for people to hear from those women.
[00:45:08] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, indeed. They don't get a voice often enough. And I think the idea of what Leo is doing is trying to be able to integrate them back into their communities, that sometimes is successful and oftentimes is not. It's really tough, as well, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of political will to change things. There are even cases in some African countries where they've been wanting to bring witchcraft back into the penal code. It's very difficult conditions of course, because every community is so different. All of the countries they're dealing with multiple languages, traditions, make it extremely difficult to penetrate with one clear message about that kind of thing. And I guess Leo's point is that education is the only hope to change it.
[00:46:04] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, he's working on his critical thinking initiative, which I think will be very helpful. But in the documentary, Wolfgang Behringer has some very eye-opening quotes about the scale of witch persecutions today. He says that there are more witch hunts happening today than there were in the European witch trials.
And I'd noticed some more parallels there. You were talking about the witch persecutions in Africa and Asia, and right now we're experiencing climate change. There's famine, there's large number of natural disasters occurring. And that rang a bell with what you're speaking to. Now it's the heat and the storms becoming a problem, where before it was the cold, but it's draining resources and pushing people to great lengths to secure their food.
[00:47:09] Karin Helmstaedt: People need a reason to, they have to understand, find a way to understand what's happening. And I know that with the communities that Leo is in contact with, a lot of those communities are not, they're very rural, and there's not necessarily a lot of formal education. And as long as you've got traditional beliefs in magic and superstition, and as long as those kinds of things are there, in the absence of widespread formal education, that sort of pushes that stuff off in, into the realm of of superstition where it belongs and not actual crime, then yeah, he's up against. It's I guess we can't talk about it enough because we're only gonna make a dent at this point, but a dent is a dent. You have to start somewhere. He's certainly doing a lot of good work.
[00:48:06] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, he definitely is. I also have noticed that there's a lot of religious conflict in many of the areas that are hotspots today. Nigeria, I know, is a very divided country religiously. In Papua New Guinea, we've read about intertribal conflict. So these other tensions are also happening as well as the economic pressure.
[00:48:34] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And I remember when I was talking to Wolfgang, it was just, it was so shocking to me, because I think he mentioned that literally just one country like Tanzania had more people killed than, more than 50,000, which would pretty much totals what happened in the 300 years in Europe. And it's almost bizarre to, or impossible to, even conceptualize that. But I think what's going on there is that populations are so much bigger. The population of Nigeria is literally booming. It's the most populous country in Africa, and it's growing all the time. So I think a lot of these issues of resource scarcity and the overcrowding that you mentioned, for instance, that was even happening in a place like Salem, that's gonna be happening very acutely in a lot of places in Africa, just as one example, because of course it's not just there. Yeah. South Asia, there's a lot a lot of problem with that as well.
[00:49:37] Josh Hutchinson: Speaking to how widespread it is, I even read this morning a case here in the United States, in the city of San Antonio, Texas. Just this morning there was a report from the San Antonio police that a man allegedly shouted, "it's time to kill the witches," and then swung a sword at an acquaintance, cutting his nose. So it's everywhere. It's not Africa, it's not Asia, it's worldwide, the Americas, everywhere.
[00:50:10] Karin Helmstaedt: To get back to the comments section on the documentary, that has been hugely eye-opening, because a lot of people, a lot of people also in our modern times identify with nature religions like wicca. They identify, that's another point that we touch on is that witchcraft is something that is very attractive in turbulent times, like what we're experiencing. And there has definitely been a bit of a renaissance going on. I would say it's been going on really quite a long time. At least five, if not 10 years. I think if you talk to people who are really in, in the mil ieu they will say that they've been noticing it for a good decade.
But a lot of the comments that have come in, because we asked for people to share their stories, and people have been very forthcoming with some of the stories that they've shared, and a lot of stories have been of personal persecution or of the fact that I am this way, I practice this, but I'm very quiet about it, because I know that, and a lot of the cases that are mentioned are happening in the United States, and people do not feel safe declaring or openly saying that they practice a religion like that.
[00:51:28] Josh Hutchinson: And you shared a little about Boris Gershman's study on witchcraft belief and how many people in the world believe in the evil eye and the power to curse someone. And It's widespread. It's every country. The lowest is about one in 10 to upwards of 90% in some nations. In America, one in six people believe that there is this evil witchcraft occurring, not this peaceful, Wicca, nature-based belief. They believe that any form of witchcraft is inherently evil.
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[00:52:07] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And that's, I think there's a lot of clashing with the Christian religious beliefs without going too far into sort of saying that it's fundamentalists, but there are very extreme beliefs out there. And I think certainly judging by some of the comments that have arisen, you realize that some have a very black and white view of how these things can be, but happily, a lot of responses have been ones of respect, with a call for respect as well of all of the different interpretations, that witchcraft can take. And they are many.
[00:52:48] Josh Hutchinson: You talk about how the archetype of the witch, the view of the witch has changed in modern times, and we've seen portrayals in film evolve over time to go along with that. And I wonder if you could speak to any of that.
[00:53:09] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, that's the whole sort of popular culture thing, which I guess, it's interesting. When I started researching this, I said, "okay, I'm gonna do a film on, I'm gonna find out about my ancestor, and then I'm gonna do this arc over to witches and witchcraft in popular culture." And it just goes on and on. You get into a kind of a, I don't even know if you could call it a rabbit hole, because that's too small. It's a more like a spiderweb, and it just goes and goes. It feels like a universe and then another universe. And there's so many different levels to how the witch has been portrayed, first of all, in the initial kind of visualizations of her and how that has influenced art and how that has influenced literature and of course literature, the witch in Hansel and Gretel, all of those Grimm's fairytales and the witches that were really not only incredibly embellished, but also romanticized in the romantic period. There were incredibly, yeah, I guess embellished is the word, sort of portrayals of how a witch could be.
It's so interesting, because the witch as a being who is somewhat marginal, as a marginal on, in, in terms of the the core of a village or a society, a small society, is somebody who is an outcast, but she's also feared, she has powers perhaps that people need to be worried about, which is one of the reasons they were persecuted. Those early portrayals of the witch were really something that you could invert and make and claim for yourself, this idea of her being a powerful woman who says my way or the highway of I'm not, I don't need the rest of the community. I can survive on my own and make my own rules. I think that's been a very attractive aspect of the entire concept of witchcraft and the idea that you could possibly then create and influence your own life with magic is something that's different again.
You've got the Wicked Witch of the East and the Wicked Witch of the West, and then of course the Good Witch. And I think it's interesting because those images have also really influenced how we think about witches and popular culture. And they're everywhere. They're everywhere. And they're quite often extremely compelling individuals and extremely, obviously in many interpretations, very sexy individuals.
And I remember when I was a kid, even before I discovered, so I hadn't left Canada for Germany yet, I had not yet made my first foray to Germany or to Europe, so I had no idea that we had a possible ancestor who had been burned as a witch. But I was completely into witch novels and various stories of witchcraft and a lot of that kind of thing simply because they are attractive figures.
[00:56:10] Sarah Jack: I had that same experience when I was like a tween. I was reading any book that had a witch character in it or if the teens or the neighborhood kids were fearful or looking for somebody or if their home was near graveyard. Like any kind of that I could find like that I was reading it, and then when I was 15 I found out that my ninth great grandma was Rebecca Nurse from the Salem Witch Trials.
[00:56:39] Karin Helmstaedt: You're both related to the same person. That is so interesting.
[00:56:44] Sarah Jack: We're related to her through her sister Mary Esty, who hanged. One of our other colleagues, Mary Bingham, is also a descendant of Mary Esty. And then I also descend from Rebecca, cuz their grandchildren married. But it was a great aunt that had been doing family history, and I, for a long time, alls I did was have this little pedigree on a piece of paper, and it said Rebecca Nurse hanged as a witch in Salem 1692, and I just didn't really do much for a long time on that. I just had no concept of the significance of that.
What you said when you spoke to the pop culture and the archetype of the witch, I found so much of what you said very important. So thank you for articulating all of that. And it isn't lost on me that a lot of these countries right now with vulnerable women who are experiencing violence, their culture isn't in a place where western culture is with women in power. They don't have that opportunity to try to seize back power or find an identity like we can here. And I was just thinking about that, how that is definitely, they're in a different, where they fall in the social order, and I mean they have all of that stacked against them now.
[00:58:05] Karin Helmstaedt: Very interesting. It's interesting that your ancestor was also your ninth grade grandmother. So was mine. It is really interesting. When I of course sent the link to this film to my entire family in Germany, because actually I have a lot of relatives here. And it was so interesting that everybody knows that stone, because we have family reunions traditionally every four years or so of the German side, of my father's mother's side. And it's so interesting that we take a Sunday walk up to that stone. So I've been there many times, and we always talk about it and look at the names on the stone, and there she is. But nobody was very interested in finding out more.
So in the end, a lot of them were really delighted that I did find out a bit more and that we now know a bit more about her. And she was quite a feisty piece of work, too, which is I think possibly the finding that I was happiest about, because I felt really like I had been able to sketch her personality, figure out exactly what she was like, read some of these really key entries in some of the protocols, the trial protocols. That let me know what kind of a person she was, and she was a person who really spoke her mind, and that also possibly didn't play well for her. But it's nice to think that you've been able to give this person a bit of a profile, a bit of form again, so that people can understand.
[00:59:37] Sarah Jack: You, were her voice now. I was really, I at her death, her meekness that she expressed with what she said, that's what Rebecca Nurse was like when she was in court, too. It's very interesting. They were strong women, and these are different women, different cultures, same, not quite the same era, cuz Rebecca was 70ish in the nineties, 1690s. But during her examination, often when she was questioned, she was standing up for herself ,not submitting to what they were saying necessarily. And it sounds like your grandmother was much like that.
[01:00:17] Karin Helmstaedt: Yes. And at the end, nevertheless was forced to make this admission and this kind of public apology that is, I think, the most heartbreaking moment. When I was reading all of that with Walter, that really hits your solar plexus, because what you realize is that there was no way out of the whole thing but to lie. And yet, for a woman of that level of religious faith and fervor that they had at that time, lying is also a mortal sin. And so you were lying to get out of this unbearable situation, and at the same time, really not even sure that you were gonna make it to the afterlife or that you were gonna be accepted into heaven, because you've just literally told a lie.
That I think is something that it's very hard for our modern, relatively, areligious existence and state of mind to relate to exactly how, what kind of a conflict that for a person. So that was I think, what really stuck with me, those two aspects for her.
[01:01:31] Josh Hutchinson: . Women speaking their mind is a persistent theme in witch trials we notice in Salem, the women who spoke back that they didn't believe that the bewitched people were actually bewitched, and they refused to go along with the story that they were told. And then the Witches of Scotland Podcast, Claire and Zoe often talk about the figure of the quarrelsome dame that recurred so often in the records.
We're near the end of our time, so I wonder if you have any closing remarks.
[01:02:12] Karin Helmstaedt: I guess just thank you for having me on the podcast and for sharing your stories with me ,because it's, once again, amazing to me how many parallels there are with these stories and it's great to know that there are other people who are so interested in making that period of history come alive.
I think it's very important. We're living through a period here in Europe again where we're looking at how the mistakes of history get repeated and repeated, and it's all the easier to repeat them if people don't know what happened. So these are histories, I think the histories of these women that we're talking about, these victims that we're talking about, they're histories that haven't really been given much time, much space, much publication, as we know now, of course, there's all kinds of stories coming out and a lot of written accounts of even the witch trials in England and Scotland. And I'm planning to also write something about Margarethe, as well. You leave something for posterity for your own children and their children, because that stone is still standing on the top of that hill in Winningen, and people have to know what went on there.
[01:03:20] Sarah Jack: Mary is back with Minute with Mary.

[01:03:31] Mary Bingham: The fun for me is deep diving into the documents to help tell the stories of the people who lived so long ago. When I started my work on Sarah Wilds, I read every online article I could find. Then I read all the entries in every book on the Salem Witch Trials I could find. Most said the same things about her, like she had an unsavory past based on two court cases, which are often quoted way out of context. Finally, I was able to purchase a copy of the Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt, my Salem Witch Trial Bible. It is a collection of all the available documents, verbatim and in chronological order.
I studied all of the depositions offered for and against Sarah, the petitions, her jail transfers, and everything else included in the documents, which were now at my fingertips. Looking at the original sources allowed me to get a glimpse of her life, her relationship to her husband and her son, as well as her neighbors.
Not any other book tells us that her son, Ephraim, thought of his mother as a friend. The primary document pertaining to his position for restitution does, whereas that document. In Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt. No other book tells us that Sarah shared a cart with Ann Pudeator on her return trip to the Salem Jail from Ipswich, except Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt. No other book quotes Sarah, when she angrily said to John and Joseph Andrews, "it is a brave world if everyone did what they would." After all, they took a scythe from a tree after Sarah said that there was none to lend. Records of the Salem Witch Hunts mentions this. This book is a must own for anyone seriously studying the witch trials.
Another great source for putting together great colonial stories, Records and Files of the Quarterly Courts of Essex County. This is the source I used for the story I will tell in next week's minute with Mary about the supposed witchcraft allegation against Joanna Towne, the mother of Rebecca Nurse, Mary Esty, and Sarah Cloyce.
Tune in next week. It's a great story. Thank you.

[01:06:07] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:06:09] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

[01:06:28] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update.
Witch hunts across time. Witch hunts past. Witch hunts present. Once a person, once a child is targeted as a witch culprit, their old life is over. Nothing is ever the same for them again. The family is never whole. They are no longer in their home with the family unit, living life as it was prior to the accusations. Most often, extended family is no longer close, family is scattered. My ancestors tried for witchcraft were hanged in Salem, and we do not know for sure where their bodies were buried. Probably on family land. Rebecca Towne Nurse is likely on the homestead. Maybe Mary Towne Esty is on hers.
We do know many of the Towne families scattered out into other settlements, other colonies after the Salem witch trials. My ancestor tried for witchcraft in Boston was acquitted, but to date records after the trial giving any sort of timeline for the remainder of her life have not been identified. Her life course was altered. What happened to Mary Hale? Her daughter, my ancestor tried for witchcraft in Connecticut, also acquitted, disappears from the record. We know she and her husband fled their land in Wallingford. We know where some of their daughters settled. But to date, Winifred Benham disappeared from the record after her final witch trial. What became of 4 year old little Dorothy Good, arrested and tried for witchcraft in the Salem Witch-Hunt? What happened to enslaved Tituba after the trials were over? We know nothing of Tituba's fate. Due to uncovered records in 2022, we know the unfortunate course Dorothy's life took. It was unsettled, she never landed on her feet. There was continued turmoil and misfortune. Learn more about those records next week on Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast when this important newly uncovered story is told by Rachel Christ Doane of the Salem Witch Museum.
What happened to those accused witches of the past, is not unlike what is happening today. Today, thousands of people are targeted and hunted. They are believed to have used sorcery or evil to cause misfortune to their family, neighbors, or community. In many, many countries today, misfortunes like dangerous weather and unexplained sickness or death are still believed to be caused by humans doing supernatural harm.
In Ghana, women are hunted as witches, and thousands of them are now in refugee camps. These refugee camps are known as witch camps. The women sent away to them are alleged witches. They are innocent. They are not witches. These are not witch camps. These are refugee camps loaded with forgotten women. Women who have not forgotten the life they were torn from. Women who carry the visible scars and damage on their bodies from the attacks they endured. They survived brutal attacks, but now they are set aside. Their existence is buried in the past that they were plucked from. They are barely surviving, many of them do not survive. Thousands of women did not supernaturally cause mischief and misfortune. They were vulnerable and now they live a life uprooted, suffering from what has been done to them.
Once a person, once a child is targeted as a witch, their old life is over. Nothing is ever the same for them again. The family is never whole. They are no longer in their home with the family unit, living life as it was prior to the accusations. Most often extended family is no longer close, family is scattered.
Awareness of the violent, modern witch hunts against alleged witches is increasing across the world. International media, organizations, governments, and individuals want it to stop and are taking action and are educating about it. The United Nations Human Rights Council is acknowledging the crisis and urging additional efforts by effected states and by all stakeholders. We are all stakeholders in efforts to stop these witch attacks and abuse crimes against women and children. When you see it in the news, read about it and share it. Educate yourself and others. Today you have heard from alleged witch descendant and journalist Karin Helmstaedt. Go watch her documentary today. Share it today. Her documentary, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past, features important interviews with several experts, including Advocacy for Alleged Witches director Dr. Leo Igwe, Witches of Scotland advocate Dr. Zoe Venditozzi, modern attack victims, and witch trial historians. You will see the faces of modern witch attack survivors and hear from their own voice what has happened to them. Please see the show description for the link to watch it.
The Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project has started to collaborate with individuals and organizations in discussion about a future Connecticut State Witch Trial Memorial. This will not be in the place of local community tributes for the individual victims like Alice Young, Goody Bassett, or Mary Barnes, for example. To join us in the early stages of brainstorming and recognizing what descendants and Connecticut residents would like put together to pay tribute and educate, please contact us now.
Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast supports the global efforts to end modern witch hunts. Get involved. Financially support our nonprofit initiatives to educate and intervene. Visit EndWitchHunts.org to make a tax deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast super listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com. Keep our t-shirts, available on zazzle.com, in mind when you start to get excited about Halloween 2023 and buy some fun wear. Sport one of our awesome shirts and introduce people to the podcast or one of our projects by leaving your house looking cool.

[01:11:59] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:12:01] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:12:02] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:12:07] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:12:09] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:12:11] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:12:14] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[01:12:17] Sarah Jack: Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
[01:12:21] Josh Hutchinson: Support our efforts to end witch hunts.
[01:12:23] Sarah Jack: Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:12:26] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.

July 13, 2023

Scottish Witch Trials with Mary W. Craig

Pre-Order New Book: “Agnes Finnie” by Mary W. Craig

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Show Notes

Take a look with us into Scottish witch trial history, as well as a close look at one particular Scottish witch trial. We discuss important historic details with historian and informative author Mary W. Craig. We are so pleased to get to learn about her new book release “Agnes Finnie the Witch of Potterrow Port” available for pre-order now. Mary fills the conversation with meaningful dialog around our advocacy questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?, while also sharing valuable insight into the current witch trial pardon efforts in Scotland.

Links:

Mary W. Craig Website

Buy “Borders Witch Hunt” by Mary W. Craig

Apology of First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

Apology of Church of Scotland

Peebles Witch Trials

Witches of Scotland Campaign

RAWS Remembering the Accused Witches of Scotland Organization

Please sign the petition to exonerate those accused of witchcraft in Connecticut

Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

Leo Igwe, AfAW

Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

End Witch Hunts Movement

Support the show

Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

Transcript

[00:00:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we talk to Mary W. Craig about Borders Witch Hunt, Scottish Witch Hunts, and her upcoming book, Agnes Finnie: the Witch of Potterow Port.
Sarah Jack: I do think people should read the Borders book before they read the Finnie book. That's what I think.
Josh Hutchinson: I think that's a good idea to get you some good background on Scottish Witch Hunts to read Borders Witch Hunt and learn about the 17th century [00:01:00] witch-hunt in Scotland, why it happened, what happened, why it was so different from English witch-hunts, what they did differently, which was so much. They were brutal. It was not fun and games in Scotland. It was serious, deadly business involving a lot of violence. It was legal to torture in Scotland.
Sarah Jack: You realized it's really incredible that the accused made it to the execution, and I know we saw accused in Salem perish in the prison, but nobody endured the amount of brutal examination that the victims of Scotland endured.[00:02:00]
Josh Hutchinson: In Scotland, they could torture you, in some cases, even if you were eight years old.
Sarah Jack: And the people that were fulfilling the different steps of the trial were getting paid well to do it.
Josh Hutchinson: Yes. We'll learn about brodders today, a. k. a. witch prickers, and what their role was in examining the suspects. We don't get into too much detail about what they did, but you can read all about it in the book, Borders Witch Hunt. She makes the medicine go down, and her approach to the book overall, it's very readable. It's informative. You learn a lot, but you enjoy the reading process of it.
Sarah Jack: We've been realizing the different nuances [00:03:00] of witch hunt management, mechanics, and behavior across the globe. And this was another one of those realizations, cuz we just aren't used to seeing the victims experience what they did here.
Josh Hutchinson: We like to remind people that in England and New England, they almost always hanged people. In Scotland, they did burn the bodies of the victims.
Sarah Jack: Her research was extensive, and her writing on it just perfectly descriptive and informative. And very visual. I felt like I could see it.
Josh Hutchinson: It is very visceral. She really takes you to Scotland, to these small borders communities in Borders Witch Hunt. And then in Agnes Finnie, she's gonna take us to the city of Edinburgh. We're going to learn about a not so great neighborhood called [00:04:00] Potterrow Port, where everyone is unfortunate and has a low income, and we'll learn how little the king cares about these people.
Sarah Jack: So after reading Borders Witch Hunt, we're getting to pull back another layer of the onion into the Scottish experience of witch hunting.
Josh Hutchinson: Her writing about Agnes Finnie, it's an intimate portrait of an individual. You get to see witch hunts through the eyes of one person. You get details on individual lives and individual case. It's not a global survey of witch hunts. It's not one page for each case. It's a whole book for one person's witchcraft trial.
Watch our [00:05:00] social media. We will be posting about this book, because our discussion coming up with Mary Craig is so enlightening, so eye-opening. It's such a pleasure to talk to her. She's one of those people, you feel like you could just talk to her all day about this topic.
Sarah Jack: We definitely could. The time flew by, but the information in the history that we gleaned from the conversation was incredible.
Josh Hutchinson: You'll want to listen to this episode more than once, I guarantee.
Sarah Jack: Borders Witch Hunt. I learned a ton about that. Like the Scotland, the England thing. I really did. I think that will be helpful to listeners. I am so happy to introduce our guest, author Mary W. Craig. We'll be talking about her book Borders Witch Hunt: 17th Century Witchcraft Trials in the Scottish Borders and her [00:06:00] upcoming project, Agnes Finnie: the Witch of Potterrow Port.
Mary W Craig: We've just recently unveiled a memorial to those who were executed in one particular trial in Peebles. We had 24 people executed in one day and then 3 individuals who were found not proven, cuz we have a not proven verdict in Scotland. They were then executed a week later. They were all part of the one trial, so we've just unveiled that memorial, which was really nice. We managed to get a minister to come along and give a little bit of a blessing, as well. So there's been lots of work. We've had an apology from the Church of Scotland over here, and we're working in the Scottish Parliament to have a pardon for all of those convicted under the witchcraft act. Things are going well over here.
Josh Hutchinson: We were gonna start by talking to you about the Peebles Witch Memorial. We saw that on your Twitter that you were there. Did you speak at that event?
Mary W Craig: I did, yes. We had a piper and then Elisa and Simon, who live in Peebles, unveiled memorial. Then I spoke for maybe [00:07:00] about five minutes, and then we had the minister, Tony, came along. He gave a blessing, and then as he read out 27 names, we had some fiddlers playing. And then we went back up to the youth center who very kindly gave us our premises for nothing. And I gave a sort of impromptu lecture about what happened during the trial. And that was really good because we had quite a few youngsters come along. We had two or three under the age of 12, but we had quite a sort of sprinkling of teenagers, which was really good to have the young people there interested. And it's, we're trying to get youngsters interested in history, can sometimes be a bit an, so it was good that they were there. .
Sarah Jack: There's been a little bit of movement with exoneration and talking about that over here in the states, Massachusetts just did an exoneration on their last witch, and that had a lot of teenagers involved, and that was a very important part. And I saw on Twitter that you had tweeted about some younger generation that was taking care of the history and could, could go forward with the history. And I thought, yeah, that's very important.
Mary W Craig: Especially as a lot of [00:08:00] those who were executed as witches were quite young themselves. The stereotype is of the old lady at the end of the village, and no, there were youngsters in the borders. We had people as young as eight and nine being accused of being witches. It mattered. It was young people of the day that were affected as well as everybody else.
Sarah Jack: When you were writing on the witch trials in Peebles, were you anticipating that you would be at a memorial so soon?
Mary W Craig: No. Now I'm gonna have to tell you how old I am. I first wrote about the Peebles Witch Trial back in 2008, and then I wrote again in 2020. So this has been a long haul. We didn't think we'd get an apology from the Church of Scotland. We were very surprised about that. And we were surprised as to how readily the community and people said, "yes, of course there should be a memorial." So it was great that everybody said, "oh, of course we need to talk about that, and we need to address what we've done in the past." So, surprising and very pleasing.
Josh Hutchinson: And why do you think it's [00:09:00] important to have the memorials?
Mary W Craig: I think because Scotland had a very high number of executions. We prosecuted and executed 10 times the number of people that they did in England per head of population. To give you a sort of idea, the numbers, Scotland at that time had a population of just under 1 million, and we executed 4,000 people that we know of. The figure is probably closer to 8,000, but 4,000 are the ones that we can definitively see in the records. Although some of the records say things like some witches, a few witches, we don't know how many that means. But for every individual that's executed, they were somebody's daughter, somebody's son, somebody's mother, somebody's sister.
So it would be the equivalent today of executing 24,000 people in Scotland today. It's a massive thing. It happened for a long time, and even when people weren't being arrested and executed, the Kirk session became almost like a morality police. [00:10:00] Everybody was terrified of witches or of being accused of being a witch or living next door to witch.
The Highlands and Islands were slightly doing better because of their, they had retained the links to Catholicism and the clan system was different up there. But for Lowland Scotland, it was a period of absolute terror, and it's something we have to recognize we got it very wrong, acknowledge what we got wrong, apologize to those who are affected, and learn from it for the future.
So that's why I think the memorials are important to see. We have memorials. Any village in Scotland has a memorial to the Great War. We should never forget the Great War. Unfortunately we did, and we're going into the Second World War. But the idea is to say, to literally put a marker in the ground to say, "we did this, we got it very wrong, we should never do this again. This level of prejudice, this level of othering people and finger pointing and blaming and shaming." And although we don't do that today, if you look at the way again, going back to young people, [00:11:00] the venom that can be on social media that's piling onto somebody and attacking somebody. That sort of mob rule, we have to stop that and we have to use the witch memorials as an example of how bad it can get.
Sarah Jack: That was so true. I'm learning so much about the Scotland trials. I just went through your book this week. And as far as descendants like over here the descendants tend to find each other, talk about it, "is there a memorial, do we need a memorial?" Do the descendants, are they a part of this? Were there descendants at the Peebles memorial? Do you hear from them?
Mary W Craig: No. What tended to happen was, because the terror was so absolute well into the 18th century, anyone who had been the son or the daughter of a witch is never going to admit it. What tended to happen was the second somebody got arrested, the family would absolutely deny any association. You'll get notes in the records of people saying, "oh no, she wasn't really my sister, she was only my half [00:12:00] sister" or, "no, she wasn't my mother, she was my stepmother." So people were so ashamed of what the person had done, because witchcraft was so evil, but obviously terrified that they themselves would get arrested.
Mary W Craig: And so within two or three generations, granny or great granny that was executed as a witch is airbrushed out of the family history. And because, of course, they weren't given Christian burial, because the church did not note their names, there is really not a way for people to go back and decide that was a relative of theirs. It's very difficult for you to trace back. And as I say, we have so many records that just say things like, "a few witches were burned." Partly fear, partly shame, and partly incomplete records. We have very few who can trace a true descent.
Josh Hutchinson: And what was a witch to the Scots in 17th century?
Mary W Craig: Okay, we could be here for some time. In the 16th century, everybody was Christian. There were a [00:13:00] few Jewish people around, but everybody was Christian. Witches were magical practitioners. They were Christians, but they were also able to do magic. So they could talk to the little people. They could talk to the kelpies or the selkies, or they could talk to the man in the black hat, and he would help you find lost property, or you might say a charm when you were trying to help a child become well. So it would be somebody who was a healer who would help you in that way.
They could also lay a spell on you if you were bad to them, but mostly they were thought of as good, and most communities knew of them. When you move into the 17th century after the Reformation and the Church of Scotland is terrified, it's got itself into siege mentality, it's surrounded by Catholics. It's not quite sure what the king's doing down in London, and we've got famine and pestilence and war going on in Scotland, which seems as if the devil is out there, using his handmaiden witches.
Then the [00:14:00] Church of Scotland takes the word "witch" and sticks it very closely, it cleaves it to the devil, because it is unnatural for women to have power. And women who do have power or claim to have power, it can only come from the devil. "Witch" changes, the meaning of the word "witch" changes from meaning being a herbal healer, wise women into this satanic follower of the devil.
We notice in the early part of the century, a lot of people who, when they're first arrested, they'll say, "yes, I'm a witch." Because they don't understand that this has now become a bad thing. By the end of the century, nobody's admitting to being a witch, unless they are kept awake and tortured. So the meaning shifts and changes and moves within that century because the church is obsessed with the devil.
Because we had a form of Calvinism that was so strict, and we had the predestination that God already knew who was damned and who was saved. And if we were God's elect and we were [00:15:00] all saved, then the devil would attack us, and he would attack us using witches. So the meaning changed, just as the meaning has changed now. There are people in Scotland today who call themselves witches today, who have, just as there are half a dozen different definitions of what to be a Christian is, there are half a dozen definitions of what a witch is today, but certainly in the 17th century, it changed from being good and healing to having that diabolical link.
And strangely enough, the people in Scotland were being told this every Sunday you'd go to the kirk on a Sunday and the minister would tell you It's witches. It's witches. It's the devil. It's the devil. And yet communities still use their witches, because what else can you do? You can't afford a doctor. There's not a doctor in your little village. If your child falls ill, or if your hens stop laying, and you think it's old Aggie at the end of the road who's cast a spell, you'll find another witch to take the spell off, because that's the day-to-day life you're living.
Sarah Jack: That's great. What did they believe the [00:16:00] diabolical witches were capable of?
Mary W Craig: Because the Kirk of Scotland were obsessed with the devil, they thought that the devil was going to bring down the new Protestant church. The Reformation happens in Scotland very quickly. In England, it was gradual. They moved from Catholicism to Anglicanism. In Scotland, we were Catholic, and then John Knox arrives and says, "no, we're now all Protestant, and all Catholics are in league with the devil." so the idea was that the devil was going to attack us all and drag us all to hell. And we had to guide against him. We had to guard against him. We had to be constantly on our watch against the devil.
And so witches were people. They were women, predominantly because women were weak and stupid and lascivious and liars and just awful creatures. And our faith was weak because of that. And so we would be easily seduced by the devil. And then we would do his bidding. We would lure men with our sexual wiles. [00:17:00] We would cast spells to make people die. We would make men impotent. It's an awful lot about sex in it with the Church of Scotland. I'm not quite sure what that says about the ministers, but there's a lot to do with sex. We would shrivel men's members, we would make men barren, we would make cattle and horses barren. We would spoil crop. We would just basically bring the whole world to its knees as servants and handmaidens of the devil. And that was why the Kirk was obsessed.
But because of this nonsense about predestination, it meant that even if you were a kirk minister, even if you were a very senior kirk minister in the General Assembly, the Kirk of Scotland, you couldn't know for absolute certainty that you were saved. So you end up in a circular argument, because if I'm the most godly person, then the devil's going to attack me. So if the devil attacks me, that proves I'm the most godly. So if I'm the most godly local [00:18:00] minister and the witches attack me, that proves I'm the most godly. But that means I want there to be witches in my area.
And so it just becomes a circular argument. You end up bringing in the witch prickers and witch brodders that we had here, and they were paid by how many witches they found, so they found lots of witches. And the ministers stood in the pulpit and screamed that this was diabolical and this was the devil and this was awful. But in a way you're saying, " see, it proves I'm a really good minister, because why else would they attack me? Why else would there be witches in my parish?" And once you're in that mindset, it's really difficult to get out of that mindset. Once you're in that circular argument, there's really no way out.
Josh Hutchinson: We read in Borders Witch Hunt about Auld Nick. Who was he?
Mary W Craig: Auld Nick was the devil. Scotland has lots of names for the Devil. He is Auld Nick. He's Auld Horny. He's Auld Jack. He's Black Clootie. [00:19:00] He's Horny Clootie. We have all these different names, and a lot of the names are from way back, from our Pagan ancestors.
There are also lots of places in Scotland named after the Devil. There's the Devil's Beeftub, which is just a very large river valley, but it's a round river valley, so it's the Devil's Beeftub. There's the Devil's Arse, there's the Devil's Bum, there's the Devil's Loo. There's the Devil's Toothpick. Not quite sure about that one.
So there's lots of, so the Devil in a way, the Devil that the church had in mind, who was Satan, who ruled over hell and fire and damnation. He wasn't quite the devil that, in Pagan times, we had believed in, he was a man that you could have a sort of, you can make a deal with the devil. You played the fiddle, you can play dice with the devil, you can play cards with the devil. There was a familiarity there that sort of lingered in folk superstition, even after the Christian Church was established. So again, when the [00:20:00] Church is railing about the Devil, and locally you say, "ah, it's just Auld Nick," that mismatch could mean the difference between life and death.
Sarah Jack: I'm very curious and I found the overlapping of the old and new beliefs quite a big deal.
Mary W Craig: Yeah, because like in all things, what people believe, ordinary people believe and what society deems as acceptable, there's always a lag of several years. I have a friend who's an elder in the Kirk of Scotland, and he still won't walk under a ladder, and he laughs at himself for that superstition. Even though he is a practicing Christian, he still has that superstitious belief, and he knows it's ridiculous, but that's what he grew up with. So these folk beliefs linger on, and I the original meaning the original Pagan meaning has been lost in time.
But you keep all, you'll say, "knock on wood," or you'll touch wood for good luck, or you won't cross a black cat's path or breaking a mirror. All of these superstitions, we've lost the original meaning, but [00:21:00] they're still there. We still all do it.
We still go out at Halloween, we go out guising, you guys go out trick-or-treating, and that's going way back. That's pre-Christian, that's a pre-Christian festival that we all still now. I mean, it's fun, and the kids get sweeties and candy. These superstitious beliefs hang on in there, and while now we smile at them and they're fine, because the Reformation was so recent for the Kirk of Scotland and because they had developed this siege mentality, they couldn't make any allowances for these old beliefs.
So it didn't make sense. So that 50 years previously your grandmother might have said a Catholic prayer as she was soothing an ill child. That was acceptable. Now, Catholicism had been tarred with the brush of being diabolical. It's very difficult to tell somebody they can't do something they've been doing for 50 years with no apparent harm.
Sarah Jack: The people's beliefs were in a transition, but what was acceptable was like a switch.
Mary W Craig: Yeah. If you think about the modern day [00:22:00] laws on things like homosexuality, society had moved on from homosexuality whilst lawmakers had not. Their thinking was about 30 years behind. And social change, same-sex marriages, things like that, the lawmakers are always behind what is the societal movement of what isn't acceptable within a society.
And what we had kept onto our old pagan traditions in Scotland. We still do it today. You still throw coins in a fountain or down a wishing well. That again, it's an old pagan belief. You take metal, which is precious, you put it into water, and water is a gateway into the world of the gods. Pre-Christian, we all do it when we're on holiday. That's part of the fun. We still, you get some people who will still leave out, my grandmother would still leave out cheese and milk for the fairies that were in the wood at the back of her house, and this would be in about 1930. She was still doing that. Admittedly, most of her neighbors thought she was a bit odd, but that belief was was still with her.
Josh Hutchinson: What were [00:23:00] some factors in the high rate of witch trials and executions in Scotland?
Mary W Craig: One of the highest problems was the king. When Elizabeth I dies in 1601, and James VI of Scotland, goes down to England to become James I of Great Britain, he goes to London, cuz that's where the money's to be made, and he takes most of his court away with him. So the senior nobility all go down to London, and it leaves a power vacuum in Scotland. And that's where the Kirk of Scotland just steps into that power vacuum.
The problem was that James VI wanted a uniform faith across the whole of Britain, and he wanted to have the Episcopal faith, or the Anglican Episcopacy faith, simply because England's 10 times bigger than Scotland. It was easier to go with the majority faith. He was in London. He was in an, gonna go with the majority faith. The problem is that had a hierarchy, which included bishops, and the Church of Scotland took one look at that and [00:24:00] said, "that's Catholicism being shoved back." And so instantly they were at loggerheads.
Now, initially, James VI wasn't too stupid, so he just thought, I'll just leave the Scotch alone. His son, Charles I, comes along, wants to do the same thing, but he didn't have the same political nous as his father. So instead of leaving well alone, he decides he wants to impose this Episcopal faith onto Scotland.
At the same time, Charles has fallen out with his English parliamentarians over taxation, and he's causing bother over in Ireland. So basically you end up with the English Civil War or the War of the Three Kingdoms. So you basically got civil war going on. So because you've got a war going on, the Kirk of Scotland turned around and says, "well see, it's the Devil, it must be, because we are all good Calvinist Scots. Why would God inflict a war on us? It must be the Devil. Why is God inflicting famine on us? He wouldn't. It must be the [00:25:00] Devil." So all the external factors are pushing it to being the devil, because that's, that's your only get outta jail free card.
There is no other explanation. It's like in the 1930s in Germany, everything was a fault of the Jews. It didn't matter what, it was the fault of the Jews, because that's what people were being constantly told. It was the same thing up here, because of course, if you start to admit for one second that it might not be the devil, then maybe you have to take responsibility for yourself.
There's also the fact that in Scotland, we do have rotten weather up here. Let's be honest, it is absolutely pelting rain with me. I can see is it today, and it's supposed to be nice today. So we do have rotten weather. So if you have harvest failure and bad weather and war and famine and death, and then the 30 years religious war kicks off in the continent, and there are Catholics across in Ireland, who are coming across into Scotland and going up and causing bother with the Irish clans. The whole world is in chaos. And halfway through the century we [00:26:00] chop the king's head off. Now that's pretty serious. Your king might be mad, and your king might be bad, and your king might be mad and bad, but you don't chop his head off.
And then Scotland, we ended up, Oliver Cromwell comes up and imposed a republic on Scotland. So there were English soldiers based in Scotland. So the Scottish Covenanters say, "our only king is Jesus Christ." So they end up doing a Holy War. So in all of this chaos and confusion that you cannot control as a church, the only thing you can say for certainty is all of this is caused by the devil. And you have to believe that because if you don't, then there's nothing the church can do about the king, there's nothing the church can do about all Oliver Cromwell, they can't control the weather, they can't control the pestilence, they can't control the war in Europe, they can't control the Irish Catholics coming over. Only thing they can do is stick to their certainty, so they develop that siege mentality, and it lasts for a long time. They keep to this belief in the [00:27:00] devil and witches and witchcraft for well over 150 years because to admit anything else, then their house starts to crumble. So that's why they have fixated on that.
Sarah Jack: That was wonderful. Thanks for that very detailed explanation for that.
Mary W Craig: The 17th century was a bad century across Europe because we had the reformation in the previous century, and what you end up with in the 17th century is the counter-reformation, and you end up with the 30 years religious wars. You've got the German states fighting with each other, you've got France and Spain fighting, so there's wars all over the place.
People are jockeying for position in Europe, which is utterly terrifying. So you've got religious uncertainty and war and soldiers and famine and plague and bad weather. And you as an individual have no control. And then you go to the one person who's going to tell you what's what, and it's the minister, and they're telling you what to do.
And as I say, we had Charles I we chop [00:28:00] his head off, we ended up the protectorate. Then Oliver Cromwell dies. His son comes along, we didn't like him, we got rid of him. Charles II comes back, but oh dear, he's married to a Catholic, so we're not quite sure about him. They don't have any children. And then James VII of Scotland, or James II of Britain. We had a lot of Jameses. He comes back. Oh dear, he's a Catholic, so we don't like him, so we bump him. So we end up with Mary and William of Orange coming over from the Netherlands. So for that entire century, there is very little stable government at the time giving us anything, because it's the government that's causing half the bother. Cuz the government, whichever government, is always arguing with the church. So the only stable thing you have in Scotland is the Kirk of Scotland. Everything else is in flux all the time. And as I say, it lasts for that full century.
Josh Hutchinson: Why were women believed more likely to be witches?
Mary W Craig: Oh, there were two or three books. There was one known as the Malleus Maleficarum, [00:29:00] which was written by a chap who may have been under the name Kramer or may have been under the name Institoris. He may or may not have been a Dominican, and he was kicked about the German states in the 16th century.
There was a Witch trial in Speyer in one of the German states, and he had an argument with the bishop Speyer as to how they should conduct this trial. The bishop said, "no, it's my town. We're doing it my way." And the women there were acquitted of witchcraft. And Kramer then said, "you're an idiot. You're wrong. If you'd have done it my way, would've had them executed."
And he wrote this book called Malleus Maleficarum, Hammer of the Witches, in which he basically outlined what a witch is and what you should do about it. So women are weak, lascivious, lying, deceitful, awful creatures, and therefore, we are ready tools of the devil. A man is steadfast in his faith in the Lord. A man is very seldom going to be tempted, but we are gonna be tempted, because, well, we're [00:30:00] useless and weak and awful.
He writes terrible things, like women's bodies are weak, and you can tell they're weak because they're porous. You think, oh, you're a horrible man. They produce milk, they leak, their bodies leak, therefore their faith will leak. He uses analogies like that, a terrible book. Problem is, it was a bestseller. Everybody thought this book was brilliant. Then you come in to the later 16th century, and you've got John Knox, and John Knox writes his book against the, it's The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women. And he was actually talking about people like Mary Tudor, who he thought was a disgraceful person and should never have been queen, cuz of course she's female, and she's a queen, and she's Catholic.
So he says that power is unnatural to women, and women who have power are in league with the devil. So you've got Institoris saying that we're weak, and our faith is weak, and we're terrible and awful. And then you've got John Knox saying, and any woman that's [00:31:00] got power is coming from the devil. And these books are read by all of the learned men right the way across Europe.
And then James I, James VI of Scotland, James I of England, just before he leaves Scotland, he comes back from Denmark with his wife-to-be in a boat, and a great storm is raised outside North Berwick. And somebody says, "oh, that storm was raised by witchcraft." So there's a huge witchcraft trial. James is involved, he's the king. And because Scotland was a little country, James wanted to be one of the big princes in Europe. Scotland's so little and so poor, he can't really do it with money, but he can do it by learning. So he writes a book called Demonology, all about Witches.
So if the king's writing about it, and John Knox is writing about it, and Kramer's writing about it, these three books do the rounds. And they just become the accepted norm that women are, by their nature, weak and silly and stupid [00:32:00] and, therefore, susceptible to the wiles of the devil. We'll just give in, because we're so hopeless. And in Scotland, about 85% of those who were persecuted as witches were women, about 15% were men.
Sarah Jack: And how were warlocks viewed differently?
Mary W Craig: Warlocks were slightly different, because there were men who followed the devil and became warlocks, but because they were men, they had to be in charge of the women. So you would maybe get three or four women, and the warlock would be in charge of them. So although he was awful and had renounced Christ and made a pact with the devil, he was in charge of the women. So that made sense, because men are supposed to be in charge of women. The reason the church was very upset about warlocks is that also tended to be men who were learned, so men who were themselves ex-ministers.
One of the famous ones is Major Weir in Edinburgh, who was this bowhead saint. And he would [00:33:00] give great sermons in the open air in Edinburgh at the Westport of Edinburgh. And then he actually turned out to have been a warlock all along. When he was executed, he threw his staff into the fire, and apparently it turned and made grimaces and uttered curses as the wood burned.
But yes, so they were very frightened of warlocks because that was just all worry. Even the devil was so powerful. He was now ensnaring men, where his women were just what can you expect? They're women. They're going to be easily ensnared.
Josh Hutchinson: Were the warlocks treated differently in the witch trials than the witches?
Mary W Craig: Yes. Now women couldn't speak in court. You weren't allowed to speak in court if you were a woman. But then one of the proofs of being a witch was to be deleted or named by another witch. So if I'm accused of being a witch, and I say, "I am and so is my sister," and then they bring my sister into court, I have to be able to say in court, "yes, I am naming my sister as a witch." So they changed the law so that [00:34:00] women could speak, but only to delate, to talk about another woman as a witch. But men as warlocks were allowed to speak in court.
And so women would be asked things like, "did you have sex with the devil?" Yet again, we're obsessed with sex. "What was he like?" And all these sorts of questions. And, "what did you do? And how did you serve him? And who was all there with you?" When men were accused of being a warlock, they would be asked, "why did you renounce your baptism? Why did you turn away from Christ? Why did you make a pact with the devil?"
It's almost as if women are just emotional. We don't really care about what they've been up to. But with the men, it was almost as if they were reasoning with them and saying, "do you not understand what you've done here? Come back to Christ. Do you not understand that this is wicked and awful?"
And there would be, the trials of warlocks could sometimes last for two or three days. The trials for women often lasted barely two or three hours. So it was quite different, yes, and a lot of men who were accused were [00:35:00] allowed to escape, shall we say? Or they would be held under house arrest, and they would often kill themselves, because your family could inherit your money, if you kill yourself. If you're executed as a witch or a warlock, your money is forfeit to the Kirk.
And a lot of men could actually challenge the accusation in the first place. If I accuse you of being a witch or a warlock, you would just turn around and say, "how dare you? I'm a man of good standing in this community. That, that Mary's outrageous. She's accused me of being a witch." And I could often be arrested for slander. So a man could often talk the accusation down at that very early stage. So that's why, there are a few, and there are a few men who went to trial and were acquitted, because they either talked themselves out of it, or they got a couple of good lawyers in there to say, "for goodness sake, this is a chap of good standing, and why we're listening to the gossip of women? Of course he's not a warlock." So the acquittal rate for men was a lot higher than women.
We also have in Scotland the not proven verdict, and we still have it in Scots law. Now, not proven doesn't mean you're innocent, [00:36:00] and it doesn't mean you're guilty. It just means that the crown has not proved its case against you. And so there are a few cases of not proven verdicts in witchcraft trials, and that tended to be for men. Men would get a not proven verdict, and if you're not proven, you're not sent to prison, you cannot be punished, because the case against you has not been proven. There are constant arguments under Scots law, whenever anybody's found not proven these days, as to whether or not we should abolish it.
Josh Hutchinson: What was the penalty for witchcraft in Scotland?
Mary W Craig: To be worriet, strangled to death, and then your dead body burnt. If you were extremely lucky, you might, in the earliest part of the century, and in the 16th century, you might get away with being branded, fined, and exiled. Oh, there are very few guilty verdicts that did not end up in an execution. And for women it was always execution after the guilty verdict, every time. Yep. And as I say, in the case of the people's [00:37:00] trial, that was 24 people executed on one day.
And of course, everybody had to come out to watch. The minister wanted everybody to see what happened to witches. The devil didn't come down and save them in the end. The devil was a lying master that if you follow the devil, this is what happens to you.
And oftentimes, if it's in some of the smaller towns, there was no public executioner. So it might be somebody like the local blacksmith, because he was a big strong lad, and he might be the one that had to, often they would put a noose around the neck and slip a little bit of wood in, and they would turn the piece of wood to strangle someone. And that's, you're having to do that face to face with somebody. It takes a long time to strangle somebody. And if it's in a small town, the chances are that blacksmith's gonna know the people that he's executing. So it was traumatic, I would think, for them afterwards to think, especially if there had been any doubt, if perhaps somebody just got caught up in it, a name was uttered, or somebody had fallen out with someone, but that was it. [00:38:00] There was no get out. Once that guilty verdict was in, you were executed, usually within a day or two days.
Sarah Jack: In your book, you noted that the people were not just expected to be there. If you weren't there observing, that was really bad for your reputation.
Mary W Craig: Oh yes. The minister would notice. You had to have a very good reason to not be there and have your children there as well. Why aren't you there? Why aren't you seeing? Because executing a witch was God's work. So, "why are you not there to witness it? Why are you hiding in your house? What have you got to hide? Were you a friend of the Witch? Are you a Witch yourself?" Yes, it would be noted if you didn't, if you didn't turn up, you didn't get there. "Why are you not watching what's going on? Why are you not showing your children, your three and four year old children? Why are you not showing them this gruesome scene to say to them, 'this is what happens?'"
Yes, you had to be there, and ministers would take note of it. And these were the sorts of things that could build to a bad reputation. So that, [00:39:00] 10 years down the line, another accusation is made, and your name might be on the list, and the minister thinks, "oh yeah, they didn't turn up that execution the last time. Yeah. They've not been to the kirk a couple of Sundays in a row without a good reason. Yeah, I'm gonna keep an eye on them." So that bad reputation can follow you about. We have situations where there are people caught up in an accusation, don't make it to court, but then 10 years down the line, the fact that they were previously investigated is brought up as part of the evidence against them.
Josh Hutchinson: And why did they burn the bodies?
Mary W Craig: It was so that there was nothing left, absolutely nothing left, because you had denied your faith, and your faith is everything. You denied that. Then you are nothing. And so the body would be burnt, and it takes a long time to burn the body. It's not like today, if you have somebody who's cremated, it's done very clinically and very safely and very respectfully and, you know, in a[00:40:00] proper sort of manner. If you're talking about Scotland this time of the year, it has rained today all day. Body could take three or four days to burn, and it's burning in a public place. It's maybe burning in the marketplace where you go to buy your bread every morning, and there is a body still burning, still burning. And then, eventually, there's nothing left, or if there is anything left, if there are a pile of ashes left, they're usually thrown into water, and the water will take 'em away. Partly because it's cleansing like a baptism, and partly the fact that it physically takes them away.
Sarah Jack: And where did the methods originate of killing and burning the witch?
Mary W Craig: Initially, if you'd done a terrible crime, if you committed a murder, you'd be executed. And usually people were hanged in Scotland. We didn't tend to burn people alive. They did in some of the Catholic countries, but that was because witchcraft to them was mixed in with heresy and burning alive was a particular punishment for heresy. We tended to hang people. Occasionally you got your head [00:41:00] chopped off, but that was slightly different. That tended to happen up in Highlands a little bit more. But anyway, Lowland Scotland tended to hang people. But because you were then gonna burn the body to get rid of the body as well, because you don't want anything of the Witch left, it was a practical thing.
If you have to build a gallows and then hang somebody, and then take a body down and then put it onto a pyre to burn it, that's a lot more work. And so if you just build a pyre and have a stake and tie someone to the stake, strangle them there and then burn them, it was purely a practical method. In some areas, people were burned inside tar barrels to make sure they couldn't escape at the last minute, although the Church of Scotland didn't quite like that, so that was too much like superstition.
But it was a purely practical reason, especially if you're gonna execute 24 people in one day. That's a lot of gallows to have to construct and then take down, because often witches weren't executed in a local place of execution. So you might have a big town, and you would have a place of execution for those who were guilty of [00:42:00] murder or rape or something horrible like that. Witches weren't executed there, because they weren't even supposed to be executed alongside ordinary criminals. Cause ordinary criminals were bad, but they hadn't denied Christ. So they were separate, even in their execution and even in their death, they were separate.
Sarah Jack: And these witches didn't say they denied Christ. They just had, because they were a witch.
Mary W Craig: Yeah. Oh, all of them were Christian. They were absolutely Christian. And you can hear it if you read through, the best thing I always find with the confessions is to actually read them out loud. And you can hear these women, especially the early part of the century, they're genuinely confused as to what it is they're supposed to have done, because they're not doing anything that their mother and their grandmother didn't do before them.
They went out, and they got herbs to, to help heal a child, and they said a little charm. What had this got to do with the devil? They didn't understand, and [00:43:00] occasionally they might say things like, "I met the man in the black hat." They meant a supernatural creature with a black hat. They did not mean the Devil, and they couldn't, you can hear the fact that it's almost as if the ministers and the interrogators are saying one thing, and the woman is saying another. It's like ships that pass in the night, they're just not understanding.
There are some really poignant ones where people say things like, "can I be a witch and not know it?" They were genuinely confused by what was going on. It was only as the trials continued, and by the time you got to about 1649, then a lot of people are absolutely shutting up and they're saying nothing.
They're saying absolutely nothing because they know that it doesn't matter what they say, it's gonna be turned. Now, the interrogators tended to be the minister and tended to be led by the minister. They would ask what today we would say would be leading questions, but what they would say is they wouldn't say to you, "did you meet the devil?" Cuz you're gonna say no to that. What they'll say is, "when you met the devil, who else was there with you?" [00:44:00] You said, "but I didn't meet the devil." "When you met the man in the black hat, was your sister with you? Was your mother with you? Was your daughter with you?" And so they would ask questions in a way to get the women to incriminate themselves, although they didn't really understand, and as I said, but later in this century, people understood and people were saying nothing. And that's when they start to use things like walking and watching and waking. And keeping people awake for days and days on end to get them into that mindset where they're gonna confess to anything.
Josh Hutchinson: You've talked about several methods that they used to test the witches. Were there others?
Mary W Craig: There were the four proofs. The first proof was having a really bad reputation or a reputation of doing bad things. One was to be called a witch by another confessing witch. One was to confess to being a witch, and that was usually done, they would keep you awake for days on end and be badgering you the whole time, "you're a disgrace to your family. You're a disgrace to your friends." And eventually you give in.
They would hold lighted candles to your feet. They would string you up by your thumbs. They would break [00:45:00] your arms, things like that. They would beat you to make you confess.
The other one was the Devil's mark. Cuz it was thought that the devil laid his hands on you and it's a parody of Christ. And because he was unnatural, he would leave a mark on you that was unnatural. And then a witch pricker or a witch brodder would arrive with a pin maybe about five centimeters long, and he would put that into your shoulders or your neck or your head on say, a mole or a freckle. And if you didn't cry out or it didn't bleed, that proved you had the devil's mark. And of course, acupuncture today, there are points in the body you can put a pin in. Often they would just keep on pricking somebody until they found point that didn't bleed.
You could be called a Witch by another Witch. If you had marks on your body, and that goes back to biblical times where you're talking about people being leprous with sin, and so if you were a sinful person, if you'd gone to the devil, there would be marks on you.
But it was mostly by keeping you awake and constantly talking at you the whole time. That was the main method [00:46:00] that was used against you.
Sarah Jack: It just amazes me that they survived everything to even get to the execution. It just seems like it was so harsh.
Mary W Craig: Yeah. I'm surprised at those who didn't confess, I'm genuinely surprised that those that didn't confess at all. And there were some who absolutely to the end said, "no, I'm not gonna confess." There were a lot of people who confessed and then at trial or just before the trial retracted their confession, and they said, "I confessed because of the torture I was put under."
You weren't allowed to be interrogated if you were under the age of 10, but we know that happened. You weren't allowed to be interrogated if you were what was known as addled in your wits, if you're mentally incompetent. But again, we know that happened. There were people who were put on trial who were quite obviously mentally incapable, and yet the local kirk minister said, "no, I want them sent to trial, and if they're mad, it's their own fault. That's what happens if you [00:47:00] hang about the devil, and anyway, they're probably faking it." And it didn't matter if your family said, " granny's been a bit wandered for years" or even if you had a doctor to say, "this person is mentally incompetent." The kirk minister should, by sheer force of personality, just say, "no, I want them brought to trial." And they were brought to trial.
But as I say, some of the confessions are so poignant. They're sort of little things like, "I left out milk for the fairies." That's it, you're witch. Or, "I was taking care of my neighbor's little boy, and I said a little rhyme over him to help him soothe him to, to sleep," which every mother and father has done that. You sing a little nursery rhyme to help your little one, if you've got a fever. That now becomes a diabolical act. It's so poignant when you read what they're actually accused of doing. But underpinning all of that, as far as the kirk was concerned, was this obsession that they had made a pact with the devil.
Josh Hutchinson: What drew you [00:48:00] to write a book about Agnes Finnie?
Mary W Craig: Oh, I wrote the book about Agnes Finnie, because I've been interested in the Witches and witchcraft for ages and ages, and the reason I'm write, I'm writing the book on Agnes Finnie, is because she doesn't fit the stereotype. She's not a nice, cute little old lady living in a cottage. She's not gathering her to take care of her neighbors. She's a nasty so-and-so. She lives in a tenement slum. She's a shopkeeper selling dodgy goods. She's a money-lender.
And it's very easy to be sympathetic to a sweet, gray-haired old granny who's gathering herbs in the countryside and who is persecuted by the church. And we all think that's terrible and awful and shouldn't have happened. It's much more difficult to be sympathetic to somebody who's not a sympathetic character, but Agnes Finnie, for all she was a nasty piece of work and for all she was quite an unpleasant person, was still deserving of justice. The law should not have treated her the way it did.
[00:49:00] And that's why I wrote about her. And also the fact that she was in the city and the book, just what life was like if you were poor. In the city of Edinburgh at that time, Agnes Finnie, is living in a place called Potterrow Port, which is, it's no longer there, but it's one of the high tenements in Edinburgh. So there's no sanitation, there's no running water, it's dark at night, it's freezing cold. Everybody's drinking as if there's no tomorrow, because the lives are so miserable.
At the same time as Agnes is alive, King Charles I has a camel, which he keeps at Corstorphine, which is the west end of Edinburgh. And this camel goes out for a walk every day, except for a Sunday, cuz it's a good Christian camel, it rests on a Sunday. And you can pay sixpence to go and see the camel. Camel has got a groom, and it's got heated stables, and it's got the best of food, and it's being fed, I dunno, sugar lumps and all sorts. And once a month, the keeper of the royal camel writes a report on how the camel's doing and [00:50:00] sends that to Charles I, and he reads this. He's not getting a report on how the poor people are living in the tenement where Agnes is. He doesn't care about them, who are starving and freezing and drinking alcohol that they've made themselves, because there's nothing else they can do to get through the day.
So that's why I wrote about Agnes, partly to say everybody's deserving of justice, nasty or otherwise, but also the fact that the king cares about his camel, but doesn't care about the poor. This is the century in which witches were living or alleged witches were living.
Sarah Jack: And what was like the population, and how many people were living like Agnes?
Mary W Craig: That's difficult to say, because not everybody was registered. You might get a tenement that had eight alleged houses in it, but you might have people who were so poor that when their husband went to work in the morning, they would get a lodger coming in off the night shift to sleep in their husband's bed. You had people sleeping in the back stairs of [00:51:00] tenements, because that was all they had. That was the problem. Nobody quite knew how many people were there.
The conditions were so bad that 50% of all children never made it to their fifth birthday. You go to Edinburgh today and you've got the amazing guides that'll take you down the old town in Edinburgh, and they talk about gardylooing. It's all done as a joke and a laugh, and everybody laughs about it. They were basically throwing excrement out of windows, and that's how people lived. There was no light. There was no heat. There was lice and fleas and cockroaches and rats. This was the life that King Charles I's subjects were living whilst his camel on the west end of the city is being fed sugar lumps.
Josh Hutchinson: So why did you choose to write a book about one particular individual after the borders witches was many trials and many people, so why focus on just one?
Mary W Craig: I wanted to focus in on one person's life to look at the ordinary life of the person in a bit more detail. And I went [00:52:00] through the records with the National Archives and the National Library in Scotland, and I was fortunate enough to find Agnes Finnie's entire trial records. So that allowed me to look at that in some detail, but also the fact that she lived just at the outbreak of the Scottish Civil War and the chaos and what is sort of throughout that because of the rising tension all the time. And we've got the wars going on in Ukraine and Russia at the moment. There's a war over there, but it's far away. We hear about it on the news, but it doesn't affect us on a daily basis.
The war was right there in Edinburgh. Young men were getting called up. You might just be an ordinary person. All of a sudden your son has to go to fight either for the king or against the king. There were roving gangs around the city, armed men in the city. So there's all sorts of things bubbling up, and the fact that I could focus in on this one individual and see what her life was like and how she starts off just as a shopkeeper, maybe doing a little bit of money-lending, all the way up to the time when [00:53:00] she's arrested, where there are 20 accusations of witchcraft being laid against her by her neighbors.
So I was able to look at it in a lot more sort of microscopic detail of one individual and how that came to pass.
Sarah Jack: I was thinking how you probably just saw her coming, like who she was,, coming together before you because of all of your extensive research and your expertise on all of these things you're talking about. And then you find her and all these records. I'm sure she just jumped right out at you.
Mary W Craig: Yeah. And the fact that she wasn't in a little cottage and she wasn't a sweet little old lady, because that would've been a very different book, because from page one, everybody would've gone, "oh, that's a shame. Poor, sweet, little old lady, what's the big bad church gonna do?" Whereas this is, "okay, Agnes, oh I see. You're like that. Are you?" And that's the challenge. The challenge of this is the reality.
I'm not saying that Agnes was a horrible person, because she was horrible. I'm saying that she wasn't a nice person, [00:54:00] but she wasn't living in a nice time. She was trying to cope the best she could. And of course she had all of the, she's a woman on her own, she's a widow, and women are only supposed to do certain things and act in certain ways. So that drew me to her because, she's trying to struggle through and do the best she can, but because she was that slightly more unpleasant character, she was much more fascinating than a sweet, little old lady.
Sarah Jack: Why was she chosen to be an accused?
Mary W Craig: She was accused, she was finally accused by her neighbors. Her neighbors went to the minister and complained about her. And then when the minister started to investigate, he ended up with these 20 accusations going back years and years.
So there were neighbors saying things like, "I had an argument with her and she made me go lame" or, "I had an argument with her and she blinded my husband." And all of these accusations then start to come out, and Agnes ends up arrested and sent to trial. So it's a sort of accumulation of different things that had happened, [00:55:00] because at one point, she's known in the neighborhood as a witch.
They know she's a witch. There's a couple called the Buchanans, and they go to her when they're little boy is unwell. And you think, why else are they going to the witch? I mean, Agnes is known to be a bad tempered so-and-so. Why are they going to this woman to try and help the little boy?
Because there was nowhere else for them to go. They're poor. They can't afford a doctor. There's no doctor going down to the tenements. The minister from the Kirk doesn't even go down to the tenements. They're basically a little world on their own in a little squallid corner of Edinburgh. They're in the capital city, and yet they're living a miserable life, and they have nothing else to do but go to Agnes. You think why would anybody borrow money from her if she's so horrible? Where else can they go? They can't go to a bank. They haven't got anywhere else to go.
The only person they can go to is Agnes, because they're all living life on the edge. One bad day, you fall over and break your leg. You can't work, you can't pay your rent, you're [00:56:00] put out your house. You try living on the streets in a Scottish winter, you're gonna die. Witch she might have been, bad tempered so-and-so she might have been, but there was nobody else for these people to go until finally they've had enough of her temper. And also finally, the fear of the witch tips the balance against the usefulness that she has, because of the rising tension of the war. And so all these things come together, and eventually they've had enough, and they go to the minister.
Josh Hutchinson: And what was the evidence used against her?
Mary W Craig: The evidence against her was what you and I would probably just think of as the accusation. So somebody would say, "I had an argument with her in the street. She yelled at me, "I'll send you halting hame." And I developed a limp. And as far as the court, as far as the minister was concerned, that was proof positive. And if the minister says so, then the court just agrees. So it was actually just the accusation.
I [00:57:00] think in Agnes's case, because there were so many of these accusations, it just piled up and piled and piled up. But interestingly, the jury took a long time to find her guilty. It took a long time. You'd expect with 20 odd accusations that they would've said guilty straight away. Now, they took a good few weeks to think about it and think about whether or not Agnes was guilty, but I think it was just accumulation. As I say, in the vast majority of witchcraft trials, there was no proof, because how can you prove something like a spell? It's very difficult to prove a spell.
You can say, "we asked Agnes to take care of our little boy, and then our little boy died." But how do you prove that Agnes killed the child? You could say, "Agnes yelled at my father, and then he had a stroke." But how do you actually prove that? Yeah, the link between cause and effect was very tenuous then, but it was enough because you had power from the devil. Then that gave you the power to lame someone [00:58:00] or blind someone.
Sarah Jack: Was Agnes executed?
Mary W Craig: She was, yes. If you're ever in Edinburgh, going up just before you hit the castle esplanade on the right hand side, you'll see the Witches' Well. And that's where the witches were executed in Edinburgh. So yes, she was executed.
Sarah Jack: Was she executed alongside other witches that day?
Mary W Craig: No. She was executed on her own, and interestingly, her daughter was not. And yet within the accusations, the 20 accusations, her daughter was named as a witch as well. And yet she was not executed, which is a curious point.
When I looked at the sort of aftermath of her trial, what was interesting was that the minister, who had never gone near the Potterrow in his time as a minister, nothing was ever said against him. Nobody said to him, "why did you not know about this witch?" Nothing was said. And he thereafter never went down to Potterrow. The local bailey, who was like the police officer for the beat, they said to him, "why did you [00:59:00] never see any of this happening?" Nobody said anything to him, and he just continued to be the police officer on the beat. They didn't do anything. No doctor went down to Potterrow. It was a case of, "we've found your witch, we've executed your witch. Now go back to your slum, because we don't care about you." And that's what happened. They were just left to continue living in the slum. That was a Potterrow.
Josh Hutchinson: What do you want people to take away from your book?
Mary W Craig: To understand that everybody deserves justice no matter what personality they have. Sometimes we should look at the way people live. We think of Edinburgh as the capital city of Scotland and oh, it's wonderful and oh, it's fantastic. It's got its poor areas well, and everywhere does. And to look at the trial and think about the difference, look at what is cause and effect, what is just an accusation, and look at the way the law is used and can be [01:00:00] abused by some people.
Sarah Jack: Will the story of Agnes help the cause of pardoning and memorializing the witch trial victims in Scotland? Is that something you support?
Mary W Craig: I think it might help towards the pardon. The pardon is being run by Claire Madison Mitchell and Zoe Venditozzi. And Claire is a KC, she's a King's Counsel. In the appellate court, she deals with appeals and miscarriages of justice. And that's why she's interested in this. And I think looking at the way the law is used and abused and looking at the fact that you have to have proof, proper proof to convict somebody of any crime, and that's what was lacking in the witchcraft trials.
I understand the religious belief in the Devil. I understand the theological knot that the Kirk of Scotland got itself tied into with this Calvinist predestination, but to then take that theological [01:01:00] argument and get the secular authorities and get the law to use it, that was what was wrong. And that's why we need the pardon today.
We don't do exonerations in Scotland, but we need to pardon these women and men for what happened to them under the law and to use it as an example of us always keeping an eye on the law and making sure that the law and the justice system is kept out of the hands of people like the Kirk of Scotland and kept out of the hands of politicians. It should stand alone that if you are accused of something, you go to trial, you have a fair trial. That's, what's it? It's nobody else's business. It's not politicians, not the religious people, nobody else. Let the law be the law, and let faith be faith. So I think that's something that's really important.
And as I say, we have had an apology from the Kirk of Scotland. I think the pardon would be a good idea, because it would again strengthen that. And then what we're looking for is a national [01:02:00] memorial, as well as lots of people are putting up small local memorials. But I think a national memorial. And I personally would also like this part of Scottish history to be taught in our schools. We quite rightly teach the children in Scotland about her our involvement in slave trade. This, to me, stands alongside that. It's a very dark part of our past. It's not something we should be proud of, but it's something we should teach and learn from.
Josh Hutchinson: I agree a hundred percent with what you've said. We're working on exonerating the accused in Connecticut and hopefully memorializing and getting some more education about that. Even though there were much fewer in number than Scotland, we still feel that they're important.
Mary W Craig: Oh yes. One is one too many. Absolutely, yes. Especially when you look at the ages of some of them. Some of these, it was right across the age range, and as I say, every one of them had a family, [01:03:00] had friends, had communities ripped apart by this constant fear, so yeah, absolutely.
Sarah Jack: We really see the parallels in the history in what's happening in Scotland with the pardoning, what needs to happen in the state of Connecticut. It's all part of a very big message, educational message. And thanks for talking about this stuff with us. I want all of these, Agnes and others, to be known so that what you're saying of the changes that need to happen can happen based on the injustices that we know and that we see now.
Mary W Craig: One of the other reasons why I think we need to talk about apologies and pardons and memorials is the fact that there are still people today who are killed as witches. It's still happening to this day, and that is something. You can believe anything you want, but you can't [01:04:00] use that belief to persecute another individual. And that's a really strong message that I think we still need to get across because there are still women and men today being executed as witches around the world.
Josh Hutchinson: We've recently spoke with an activist from South Africa, and he explained the situation there, and it's really eye-opening. There's so many people that are still tortured and killed.
Mary W Craig: Was that Leo Igwe?
Josh Hutchinson: This was Damon Leff that we spoke with. We're hoping to speak with Leo pretty soon.
Mary W Craig: Leo's excellent. That's the saddest part is the fact that we, we're 400 years on and it's still happening, so human beings can be so nice and so fantastic and so wonderful to each other. And we can produce amazing things like, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and the Mona Lisa. And yet we can equally be absolutely awful to one another, and we need to recognize that part of our personality and guard [01:05:00] against it whenever we can.
Josh Hutchinson: Is there anything that we could do to stop hunting witches in the present day?
Mary W Craig: That's a difficult one, because the witch hunts that are happening today have different roots. So a lot of the ones in Africa are rooted in evangelical church, so it's coming from Christian belief. But there are witchcraft trials in places like Nepal and Saudi Arabia, countries like that, where it's not coming from a Christian perspective. So I'm not sure what their concept of witchcraft is.
I think it's a case of talking about it, keeping it in a public domain, getting it recognized as what it is, which is terror. And speaking to people like Leo Igwe, speaking to campaigners who are working in these actual countries and finding out what's going on there. I'm currently researching a book about colonial India and the witchcraft [01:06:00] trials that took place there under British rule and the parallels that are still happening in some of the Indian states today.
So it's difficult to pick apart exactly what's meant by witchcraft and Witches in some of these areas, but it's speaking to local campaigners and making sure it's on the internet, it's on social media, it's in the news. I think that's what those of us here can do about it.
Josh Hutchinson: One of the things that we're starting to do, we're trying to speak with Leo and Damon and those kinds of people who are on the ground in those nations and know what's going on and get their voices on our podcast. And we find every day stories of these atrocities happening in so many countries, and we share those on social media and try to get the word out the best that we can, and so far that's the thing that we're able to [01:07:00] do.
Sarah Jack: It feels like there should be more to say about that, because it's such a huge, the scope is so wide, but I don't know. It's also silencing when you think about it.
Mary W Craig: I think the problem is the fact that most people, certainly in Scotland, think, "oh, we did it then, and it's all over." And then you'll say, "and there are witchcraft trials happening today" or, "there are witch executions happening today." And people say, they don't know, quite know what to say, because we think of it in the past, I almost liken it to modern day slavery, because up until, I would say 10 years ago, I would reckon most people in Britain thought that slavery was over and done with, was over and done with over 150 years ago.
And it's taken a long time for people in Britain to understand about modern slavery and what that means. For a long time people thought, "oh no, but we abolished the slave trade. There isn't any slavery anymore." And then you discover that the young lady in the nail salon that you go to [01:08:00] might be a modern day slave or the lad that's washing your car.
And that took a long time for people to get that understanding. And I think it's the same with modern witch persecutions. I think is gonna take a bit of time for people to accept it. And then once they say, "oh yes, that is still happening. And so we need to put a stop to that, we need to stop that."
In a way it's quite tied together. It's persecution of people who can't stand up for themselves, because of poverty and or ignorance or political unrest in their home countries. And they are then very quickly victimized, and they could be victimized as a witch, or you could end up being a slave doing my nails in the local salon or something. All of these things are quite interlinked now. So raising the profile and making people understand that it is still happening. Yeah, it's a big, it's a big thing to do, but it's something I think we all should be doing.
Sarah Jack: I'm really hopeful that these messages that we're starting to pull together are [01:09:00] going to just keep reaching more ears and those people are gonna talk about it, too. But there's a parallel, too, with the family of the victims. When I asked about descendants in Scotland, and they didn't want to be connected to those who had been executed. I think in some of the nations today that are having witch attacks, they have to also find a way to carry on in the aftermath and not also be attacked because their grandmother was or their cousin was.
Josh Hutchinson: It was a real eye-opening discussion and very important discussion, and you spoke eloquently to the problems that are still going on today and why it's important to memorialize and pardon. And I want to thank you for that. And thank you for being our guest.
Sarah Jack: I'm really looking forward to getting to know Agnes Finnie.
Mary W Craig: It will be available as a [01:10:00] paperback, hardback, and also in a Kindle version on Amazon, or you can get it direct from the publishing house, Luath Press.
Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with another update on Witch. Hunts happening in modern times.
Sarah Jack: Here is End Witch Hunts World Advocacy News.
As you just heard from Mary Craig, Scotland is actively attending to the damage the witch trials brought to their ancestors. Activists are seeking justice for the innocent people accused and convicted under the Witchcraft Act of 1563. As you learned, there is much to make amends for, as much as can be done.
Many individuals and groups have collaborated over recent years to build an effective campaign across the country of Scotland. This effort can heal the massive trauma from their alleged witch executions and trials. Today I want to briefly catch you up on their official progress and point you to the sources of information.
The Scottish Parliament established a precedent of pardoning convictions of innocent past [01:11:00] individuals when it passed the Historical Sexual Offences (Pardons and Disregards) Act of 2018. Recognizing this precedent, King's Counsel Claire Mitchell submitted a petition to the Scottish Parliament for the pardoning of Scotland Witches. She states, "history still records these people as convicted witches -- justice demands that this is put right. History should properly reflect what these people were -- innocent, vulnerable people, caught up in a time where allegations of witchcraft were widespread and deadly."
This petition has a strong message, and it's being heard. Two official apologies have been declared to Scotland from within its leadership this year. First, on International Women's Day, March 8th, 2022, the Scottish First Minister on behalf of the Scottish Government issued a formal apology stating, "I am choosing to acknowledge that egregious historic injustice and extend a formal posthumous apology to all of those accused, convicted, vilified, or executed under [01:12:00] the Witchcraft Act of 1563." The second apology occurred at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, when a unanimous motion was accepted based on a report by its theological forum to apologize for its role in the murders of thousands of people, mostly women, who were accused of witchcraft between the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries.
Following these landmark apology statements by the Scottish government and the Church of Scotland, Member of Scottish Parliament Natalie Don submitted a member's proposal for a bill requesting a formal pardon, stating, "to build the fairer, more equal, and forward thinking Scotland that we all want to see, we must address the historic abuses of our past. Under the Witchcraft Act of 1563, an estimated 3,837 people were accused of witchcraft in Scotland, with approximately 2,500, executed between 1563 and 1736."
As Claire Mitchell so clearly pointed out in her petition, Scotland's victims were caught up in a [01:13:00] time where allegations of witchcraft were widespread and deadly. The world today must admit that thousands of living alleged witches are caught up now in a time where allegations of witchcraft are widespread and deadly. The deadly time is still here. It's called today. Actions must be taken to intervene for alleged witches in Africa and the Asian Pacific that are being attacked, tortured, and killed in this deadly time.
Can you accept that witch hunt thinking has not ended? It has not disappeared, it has not stopped. These strongly-held fears must be addressed and stopped immediately. While we watch and wait, let's support the victims across the world. Use your social power to help them support them by acknowledging and sharing their.
Please use all your communication channels to be an intervener and stand with them. The world must stop hunting witches. Please follow our End Witch Hunts movement on Twitter @_endwitchhunts and visit our website at endwitchhunts.org.
End Witch Hunts movement and Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast support the [01:14:00] worldwide movement to recognize and address historical wrongs.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for that informative news segment, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Like, subscribe, or follow wherever you get your podcast.
Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell all the people in your life about our show.
Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end modern witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.Org to learn more.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:15:00]

December 22, 2022

Marion Gibson on The Witches of St. Osyth