In August 2023, we spoke with playwright Laurie Flanigan-Hegge about Prick, her play about the Scottish witch trials. It had just premiered at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
Two years later, the play has traveled to New Orleans, Wellington (New Zealand), and opens November 6-16, 2025 at the Den Theater in Chicago.
We reunite with Laurie and puppet artist Madeline Helling and meet two directors: Jeff Mills of Chicago’s Proboscis Theater Company and Amy Chaffee from Tulane University.
The conversation covers what it’s like staging historical violence, why the single puppet design works so powerfully, and how a play about 17th-century Scotland keeps finding new relevance.
About the Play
Prick examines the Scottish witch trials through three women: an Unknown Woman lost to history, Marioun Twedy of Peebles, and Isobel Gowdie. The title refers to “pricking”—searching accused women’s bodies for the “devil’s mark” with sharp instruments.
The play moves between past and present, uses dark humor and Scottish folk music, and centers on a single haunting puppet created by Madeline Helling.
What They Discuss
The rehearsal process: Both directors talk about the challenge of staging the pricking scenes, even with a puppet. Jeff’s Chicago cast continues working through how to show violence respectfully. Amy’s New Orleans students couldn’t bring the instrument near the puppet—they performed the gesture from twelve feet away.
The puppet’s power: Madeline designed one puppet to represent all the accused women. It’s specific enough to feel real, neutral enough that audiences project onto it. The puppet travels between productions and comes back to her for repairs.
Contemporary connections: The play addresses ongoing witch hunts in countries where witchcraft remains a state crime. Amy teaches in Louisiana and discusses working in a politically charged environment. Jeff talks about theater as “rehumanization” in response to current dehumanization.
The music: Both productions use songs by Heal and Harrow, a folk duo who created an album for the Witches of Scotland Campaign. Jeff adds Scottish guitar with electronics. Amy’s students performed acapella arrangements.
Cultural complications: Amy reflects on taking the play to Wellington, New Zealand—a colonial capital—at a conference focused on integrating Māori culture with acting and voice techniques. The play deals with Scotland as both colonized and colonizer, which created complex responses from audiences of different backgrounds.
“Remembrance Is Resistance”
This Witches of Scotland Campaign motto runs through the conversation. The campaign seeks pardons and memorials for nearly 5,000 documented accused. They created a tartan anyone can wear to show support.
At Tulane, one student built a monument inscribed with every name from the database and installed it in the lobby.
Chicago Production
November 6-16, 2025 The Den Theater, Milwaukee Avenue Tickets: thedentheatre.com (search “Prick”)
Two weekends only. Proboscis Theater Company’s production features new jackdaw puppets and is reaching out to both theater audiences and Chicago’s pagan communities.
Guest Bios
Laurie Flanigan-Hegge is a playwright whose work focuses on historical events. She created Prick in collaboration with the Witches of Scotland Campaign for Justice. The play premiered at the 2023 Edinburgh Fringe Festival and has since been produced in the US and New Zealand. She has been collaborating with Jeff Mills and Amy Chaffee for 35 years.
Madeline Helling is a puppet artist based in Minneapolis. She designed and built the central puppet for Prick, representing the accused women of the Scottish witch trials. The puppet has traveled with the production to all its venues and returns to her for repairs between shows.
Jeff Mills is Co-Artistic Director of Proboscis Theater Company in Chicago. He is directing the Chicago production of Prick (November 6-16, 2025 at the Den Theater). A former member of an Irish-Scottish music band, he is also composing the sound design for the production. He has been friends and collaborators with Laurie and Amy for 35 years.
Amy Chaffee is Associate Professor of Voice and Acting at Tulane University in New Orleans. She directed the North American premiere of Prick at Tulane with nine undergraduate students, then took the production to Wellington, New Zealand for the Oceania premiere at an international theater festival. She primarily works as a voice coach and dialect coach in film and television.
Why Listen
Four theater artists who’ve been friends for 35 years discuss the ethics and challenges of bringing historical trauma to the stage. They’re honest about what works, what’s difficult, and why this particular play keeps finding new audiences.
If you’re interested in historical witch trials, feminist theater, puppetry, or how the past connects to the present, this conversation offers substance without sensationalism.
Related Episode: Episode 47 (August 2023) – Original discussion before Edinburgh premiere
Resources:
Witches of Scotland Campaign
Survey of Scottish Witchcraft database
Heal and Harrow (musicians)
thedentheatre.com
Keywords: Scottish witch trials, Prick play, Witches of Scotland, Chicago theater, Den Theater, puppet theater, witch trial history, Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, Jeff Mills, Amy Chaffee, Madeline Helling
The Thing About Witch Hunts explores historical persecution and its continuing echoes. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
This October, we’re diving into the fascinating story of Margaret Jones—the first woman tried for witchcraft in Massachusetts—through Andrea Catalano’s debut novel The First Witch of Boston. Josh and Sarah explore this gripping historical fiction that sheds light on a witch trial that happened decades before Salem, in 1648. Discover why this lesser-known story deserves your attention and hear from the author herself about bringing Margaret Jones’s tale to life.
Episode Highlights
October Witchcraft Season: Josh and Sarah kick off the spookiest month with increased witchcraft content
Pre-Salem History: Learn about Massachusetts witch trials that occurred 44 years before the famous Salem trials
Margaret Jones’s Story: The 1648 execution that changed colonial history
Author Interview: Exclusive conversation with debut novelist Andrea Catalano
Chart-Topping Success: How this historical fiction novel reached the top of Amazon charts
Historical Accuracy Meets Fiction: Why Margaret Jones’s story was “ripe for telling”
Key Topics Covered
First Massachusetts witch trial (1648)
Margaret Jones execution
Pre-Salem witchcraft persecution
Colonial Boston history
Historical fiction as a vehicle for forgotten women’s stories
Andrea Catalano’s research and writing process
Featured Book
The First Witch of Boston by Andrea Catalano
Genre: Historical Fiction
Subject: Margaret Jones, executed for witchcraft in 1648
Amazon bestseller with positive critical reception
Why Listen
If you’re interested in:
Witch trial history beyond Salem
Colonial American history
Women’s forgotten stories
Historical fiction
October/Halloween content
Witchcraft history
Keywords
Witch trials, Massachusetts history, Salem witch trials, Margaret Jones, 1648, colonial America, witchcraft history, historical fiction, Andrea Catalano, The First Witch of Boston, Boston history, pre-Salem witch hunts, Halloween podcast, October episodes, women’s history, forgotten history
Subscribe & Support
Join Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack every week for your dose of witchcraft history. Subscribe to The Thing About Witch Hunts for more fascinating stories about persecution, superstition, and the women who were accused.
Perfect listening for October, Halloween season, or anytime you want to explore the darker corners of American colonial history.
With his highly anticipated debut graphic novel “More Weight: A Salem Story” releasing, Massachusetts-born author Ben Wickey joins us for an exclusive pre-launch interview about this Alan Moore-praised “appalling masterpiece.” The Edward Gorey Award-winning artist’s first solo work tells the harrowing tale of Giles Corey, the only person pressed to death under stones during the infamous 1692 Salem Witch Trials.
What makes this upcoming graphic novel release extraordinary? Beyond Wickey’s stunning and unmatched visual storytelling that brings historical horror to visceral life, he is a descendant of Salem Witch Trial victim Mary Easty, bringing deeply personal perspective to this decade-long project that Publishers Weekly compared to “From Hell.”
We explore the pre-release excitement, Wickey’s meticulous research using historical documents, and his innovative dual-timeline narrative featuring Nathaniel Hawthorne interludes. Using the graphic novel format, Wickey cuts through pop culture mythology to restore the genuine horror and humanity of Salem’s history.
Discover how Corey transformed from testifying against his wife Martha to defiantly uttering his final words “more weight,” and why this Salem witch hunt story will captivate readers everywhere.
Today we’re diving into the Salem witch trials with playwright Matt Cox, whose play Witches?! In Salem!? offers a fresh perspective on one of history’s most tragic episodes. This isn’t your typical historical drama – Cox has crafted something that’s both rigorously researched and surprisingly funny, managing to honor the victims while illuminating the very human motivations behind the 1692 tragedy.
Matt spent eight years developing this play, transforming it from a simple comedy about fantasy witches into a nuanced exploration of actual history and human nature. The result is a work that includes real fantasy witches who ironically never get blamed, while the innocent townspeople fall victim to fear, social pressure, and petty grievances that spiral devastatingly out of control.
As a descendant of Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty – two of the Salem victims – Sarah brings a personal perspective to this conversation about how historical trauma can be transformed into meaningful art. We’ll explore how Matt incorporated real historical research, why he made specific creative choices, and how the play has evolved through different versions and productions.At its heart, Witches?! In Salem!? reminds us that the people involved in Salem weren’t monsters – they were humans like us, making it both a sobering reminder of our capacity for harm and, surprisingly, a source of hope for learning to do better. Join us as we discuss finding truth and even humor in one of history’s darkest chapters.
Why does a 72-year-old play about 333-year-old witch trials still feel urgently relevant today? Arthur Miller’s The Crucible has become theater’s ultimate evergreen story, because it captures something timeless and terrifying about human nature—our willingness to destroy each other when fear takes hold.
When Miller’s play premiered on January 10, 1953, audiences immediately understood it wasn’t really about Salem. This was Miller’s bold response to McCarthyism, a thinly veiled critique of Senator Joseph McCarthy’s communist witch hunts that were tearing through American society. Miller had taken the Salem witch trials and transformed them into a mirror, forcing 1950s America to confront its own capacity for panic and persecution.
But here’s what makes The Crucible truly remarkable: it didn’t stop being relevant when McCarthyism ended. In our current era, when we’re so quick to label people as enemies and deny their humanity, Miller’s allegory feels more essential than ever. The play’s central question—what happens when a community turns against itself in search of hidden enemies—remains one of the most important questions we can ask. Whether you know the play from school, the stage, or the screen, whether you have family who lived through the Red Scare or ancestors who witnessed Salem’s trials, The Crucible speaks to something universal about the human condition. It reminds us that in times of crisis, we all face the same choice: Will we stand with the mob, or will we find the courage to stand for justice?
In this week’s episode of Witch Hunt podcast, Josh and Sarah translate to English when the guest speaks in Spanish. Please enjoy this new experience like we have.. We welcome Spanish documentary photographer and filmmaker Judith Prat. With a background in human rights law, Judith powerfully examines the persecution of women accused of witchcraft in the Pyrenees during the early modern period.
Judith discusses her documentary film “Decían Que Era Bruja” (They Said She Was a Witch), which pays tribute to the innocent women targeted during the witch hunts in Spain. She also shares insights about her photography exhibition “Brujas” and accompanying photobook featuring 67 striking images that document the landscapes of the Pyrenees and the women who inhabit them today.
Through her work, Judith challenges the stereotypical portrayal of “witches” as old hags, revealing instead the truth about ordinary women who were unjustly persecuted. Join us for this fascinating conversation about memory, justice, and reclaiming historical narratives through art.
Professor and author Jane Barnette from the University of Kansas joins us for a discussion on how witch trial narratives continue to influence our cultural understanding.
She shares about her groundbreaking production of Kimberly Bellflower’s “John Procter is the Villain” – a contemporary play that boldly reexamines “The Crucible” through the lens of #MeToo, premiering at the University of Kansas just days before its Broadway debut.
“John Procter is the Villain” considers Arthur Miller’s messaging in “The Crucible,” examining how Miller’s fictional recreations of historical figures like John Proctor and Abigail Williams have shaped public perception of the Salem trials, often at the expense of historical accuracy. Consider with us, how theatrical reinterpretation can help reclaim silenced voices and how the term “witch hunt” has evolved in contemporary discourse.
Theater serves as a powerful medium for confronting and transforming our understanding of the past and modern society. Witch Hunt podcast examines historical witch trials and their continuing impact on society through conversations with experts, descendants, and advocates for justice.
We step behind Broadway’s emerald curtain to explore Wicked with two leading scholars. The University of Kansas’ Paul Laird, professor emeritus of musicology, received unprecedented access as Stephen Schwartz composed his blockbuster musical and wrote the definitive book on its making, Wicked: a Musical Biography. His colleague Jane Barnette is a professor of theater & dance and the author of Witch Fulfillment: Adaptation Dramaturgy and Casting the Witch for Stage and Screen. She reveals how the evolving story of Oz has redefined witchcraft in modern theater. In this engaging discussion, we prepare for the film while learning more about the book and musical that changed how we see good, evil, and female power and friendship.
Wicked Movie: The Making of a Witch explores the nuanced and powerful portrayal of witches in the highly anticipated Wicked movie. Witch Hunt podcast hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack delve into their immediate reactions and the deeper social themes conveyed through the film
Wicked Movie: The Making of a Witch explores the nuanced and powerful portrayal of witches in the highly anticipated Wicked movie. Witch Hunt podcast hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack delve into their immediate reactions and the deeper social themes conveyed through the film. From the breath-catching spectacle of Galinda’s grand entrance to the heartbreaking social justice undertones surrounding Elphaba’s journey, this podcast dissects the movie’s profound commentary on othering, power dynamics, and societal hypocrisies. Alongside enthusiastic discussions of standout scenes involving musical numbers, stunts, and emotional turns, Josh and Sarah provide a thorough examination of how the Wicked movie redefines classic witch stereotypes and resonates with contemporary issues. The podcast is an unmissable treat for fans of Wicked, Oz, and beyond, offering a thoughtful and passionate examination of one of the year’s most magical films.
Josh Hutchinson: [00:00:00] There's pandemonium. People are running in the streets in panic because, oh, the Wicked Witch is coming. Like suddenly there's a Wicked Witch. There hasn't been a Wicked Witch before, as far as we know. And now there is one and she's the great enemy. And oh, by the way, she's green. Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast reviewing the portrayal of witches in literature, theater, and film. I'm Josh Hutchinson. Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we investigate the treatment of witches in the Wicked movie. Josh Hutchinson: And we're reviewing the Wicked movie because it's something that we obviously enjoy, and it's something a lot of people out there enjoy, and we want to be able to enjoy it together while also critically evaluating the role of the witches in the film. Josh Hutchinson: So, we saw the Wicked movie today, and Sarah, I'm really curious, how did you feel when you [00:01:00] walked out of the theater? Sarah Jack: I didn't want to leave. I wanted to walk right back in and watch the next showing. Josh Hutchinson: That's the same way that I felt, actually, though, even while the movie was going on, I was like, I can't wait to watch this again and catch more of the details and everything because I kind of had to live in the front of screen mostly to focus on what they were saying and singing, but I wouldn't be able to just sit back and enjoy everything. Sarah Jack: We've spent several weeks preparing for this event, reading, watching. So there's been all this time looking forward to being in Oz in the theater and so being there was fantastic and I wasn't ready to leave Oz. And Josh Hutchinson: It was a really, it was really just a great [00:02:00] creation of the world of Oz. I thought their rendition of Oz was quite excellent. Sarah Jack: Maybe we want to talk about Galinda's entrance into the film a little bit. Josh Hutchinson: Boy, do I. Galinda's entrance is so spectacular. And if you love the Good Witch in the 1939 MGM film, this is very evocative of her coming in, in her bubble. It's. I love the way they show, they pan up to the sky and you just see this like light twinkling in the sky moving. You think, Oh, it looks like the sun, but cause it's so bright and spectacular, but it keeps coming down. And then it's a bubble with Galinda in it. It's amazing. Sarah Jack: Yeah, and she, Cynthia and Ariana have now created these characters [00:03:00] that I, I don't, I, they will never be matched, in their, the combination together, their partnership, their friendship. And we'll be talking about that more, I'm sure. But I, I fell in love with Glinda immediately and, I'm sure, you know, my love for Glinda the Good Witch from MGM, you know, that sets the stage and, but Galinda was just marvelous right from the get go. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, she's spectacular. They really cast the movie very well. I thought all of the actors just fit perfectly the character. You know, I don't know if they, they cast it and then they did some rewrites to, to make it perfect for them, butall of the songs just came straight from the musical and they were able [00:04:00] to sing them perfectly. And, you know, you look at people like Kristen Chenoweth and Idina Menzel and the vocal talents that they have, then you see Ariana and Cynthia able to pick that ball up and run with it. And they just nailed every note. It was literally pitch perfect and beautiful. thought, you know, the whole, the story between the two characters was just beautiful. They don't start out liking each other, but they come that way. Sarah Jack: I'm just gonna state that I have not been to the musical, but I've read and I've read and read and, you know, seen lots of Oz, and talked to experts, but the first look into Oz today in that theater was [00:05:00] not sparkly. Right out of the gate is the darkness. Josh Hutchinson: There was a really problematic moment for me, one that I struggled with a little in the first scene. Well, spoiler alert here if you're not familiar with the musical, the first scene of the movie is basically similar to the beginning of Oz, once Dorothy lands in Oz and The Wicked Witch of the East is dead and the Munchkins are celebrating, ding dong and all that. And, so the beginning of Wicked is similar in that they're actually celebrating the death of the Wicked Witch of the West. Which then the whole movie goes back explaining like the story from the beginning of the, before she was the Wicked Witch of the West when she was Elphaba, you know, [00:06:00] and goes through her life and adventures and misadventures, but in the first scene, while they're celebrating the death, they burn a giant, wooden effigy of the witch, which really evoked the terrors of the European witch trials and also modern-day persecutions of people accused of witchcraft. Sarah Jack: Absolutely. I almost cried. Sarah Jack: So, you know, my experience as a child watching the 1939 film, you know, for sure that the witch was evil. You just, it's not just assumed, but you know, you knew then. And it's this huge relief. This monster's gone. You just hear that a witch is dead. You see her feet there, and the celebration makes sense. It's [00:07:00] comfortable. It is a celebration of conquering evil. Sarah Jack: But if you've read Wicked, if you are familiar with the characters at all, and I think also when you have an awareness of what's happening in our world to innocent women and children and men, I've learned to not, so I automatically think it's not a witch.I don't see celebration in killing a witch because of the reality. And I'm fully aware, fully aware that this is a fairy tale. It's a fairy tale I love, but it was hard to start right there, celebrating and watching the burning of this effigy, especially when there's been things in the news this week of deaths of innocent people, but also of effigy burnings. [00:08:00] And so I couldn't, I was like for a minute there, I wasn't in the fairy, fairy tale. It was hard to see it. It's huge. I mean, it's not, it's huge. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Sarah Jack: they, I mean, Josh Hutchinson: It's a Burning Man size, effigy, basically. Sarah Jack: truly, obviously it goes into the story and you begin to fall in love with Elphaba. It's horrific to realize that that was her, that that is, yeah. I mean, Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Sarah Jack: I want to say it's not just about the things that I said. It does, as a descendant of women that were hanged for witchcraft, it was very upsetting. I'm not saying it was the wrong choice. I don't have an answer. I don't know what I think of that. I think that it is a portrayal of mob mentality against accused and alleged witches.
Josh Hutchinson: That's, uh, the flip side of, you know, what I was saying my [00:09:00] initial shock at it happening. Part of me did feel like this shows what happens. This is like a visual for people that you instantly connect to the historic witch trials most, but, you know, once you know about the modern witch trials, this really just evoked images that we've seen of people being burned alive for this. So it was difficult to see, but I also see it as, Hey, this is a, moment where we can talk about this and maybe shed some light on what's happening now. Like you said, the mob mentality in the manner that they were rejoicing. Everybody's getting caught up in what everybody else is, everybody else's celebration and you know, they just light this thing, but [00:10:00] the image was just so, it's so visceral. And it really just kind of knocks you out for a moment while if, you know. Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm really curious if, if they did screen test. If they, what kind of responses they were getting and if they just ignored them, , you know, I think people would've been ho I think, I mean, it's very horrifying to watch and part of the, when you're looking at it from the fairytale perspective, you associate water or a, you know, a falling house with witch death, but it's just a different feeling to watch a giant witch burn. Josh Hutchinson: Now that said, if I wasn't aware of what's going on today, I might be It might be, my reaction to it might've been measured a little bit more, but still the thought of all the innocents, the tens of thousands of innocent people who were [00:11:00] actually burned or at least their bodies were burned at the stake because of witchcraft accusations in Europe, still knowing, just knowing about that makes me feel some kind of horror at seeing it. Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was horror. It was horrifying. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. But like you were saying earlier, then you go, it's kind of a dramatic switch. You go from this burning effigy, to then Josh Hutchinson: Glinda starts telling the story of Elphaba and she begins with, well, Elphaba's mother having a relationship that then leads to Elphaba's birth. So you see this little, like, I find it a little adorable green baby, coming out. Everybody who's present for the birth is like shocked and repulsed by it. Sarah Jack: So [00:12:00] that had another tie to me from that had another tie for me in reality. I read an article this week about a little girl that was born with albinism. And in the interview, the mom responds how disappointing it was, how hurtful it was that when her family came to meet their child, they only stayed five minutes. And that's like a real experience that just happened just a little bit ago. I do think that birth is a celebration. It's supposed to be a celebration and it wasn't. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah Jack: for Elphaba's family. Josh Hutchinson: Right. Yeah, the green skin color is obviously a device to mark Elphaba as being different than all the other characters in the movie. It's really just a [00:13:00] signal of her otherness, but like you said, real people go through very similar experiences where a baby's not born the expected skin color. And people don't know how to react to that. There's a lot of superstition. We just did an episode about that earlier this week, and there's so many myths about persons with albinism, especially, but also, you know, people who are born with anything that marks them out as being different than other people. If you have a disability, you're marked out as different right away. If people can see it, then they start thinking about you as being kind of different and maybe less than other people. Sarah Jack: You made a good point when you said they don't [00:14:00] know how to respond. And I do think that there is that. The shock causes people to not respond. Josh Hutchinson: The, that scene is so beautiful with her birth. One of the things that we just had a really wonderful conversation with Paul Laird and Jane Barnette earlier this week. And one of the things that I believe Jane brought up and they spoke about looking forward to how. Is this going to look off the stage on camera? And I loved the dimension that that room, the birthing room had. It had the, the family and the characters and the animals just like all around and the baby goes up. It was really a fascinating scene because, even though there was this, [00:15:00] the father's in the background, not responding well, she's still being elevated. Josh Hutchinson: That's a good point. There's, there's something to that where it begins with her being elevated and then later on in the movie, she's also elevated, like physically lifted above the ground. So you kind of can see her at two stages of life having a similar experience. And we know that flight is so important in portrayals of witches. Of course, the original Wizard of Oz book and film had the Wicked Witch of the West flying around the country on her broom. So you've got that back again and that's wonderful, but you wait for it. It builds up a lot of anticipation for that first actual flight [00:16:00] moment. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Josh Hutchinson: So, Sarah Jack: Yeah. Flight is such a key element in even in Frank Baum's I mean, Dorothy, the wizard, how do they get to Oz? It's through the air. Josh Hutchinson: And how did the wizard get to Oz? Through the air in his balloon. And, you know, so it's common, like the Oz stories tend to begin and end with, you know, whether it's at the end of the MGM film, the wizard taking off in the balloon to go back and leaving without Dorothy or, you know, you know, the way this one ends with the song, the performance, of Defying Gravity. just leave that as a hint for now. it's very effective. I really loved the way that they closed this movie, but we'll come back to that after we talk about the middle a little more. Sarah Jack: I really want to talk about Elphaba's. [00:17:00] magic that they do show like right out, right out of the womb. That is flight. Like the magic that they show is the flight. Josh Hutchinson: But I also love the props, all the props, like all the details. Every little prop was so fun. And it looked like, you know, you just wanted to go play with Galinda's shoes and the poppies and the, the spectacles and glasses. And I wanted to try Elphaba's hat on, like the props were really marvelous. Sarah Jack: I loved the way that they used the poppies in the scene when Professor Dillamond is removed from the classroom, and another professor comes in with a lion in a cage, and Elphaba gets furious about the way they're treating this lion. She's used to animals walking around freely and being able to converse, and this cage is supposed to suppress the [00:18:00] lion's ability to learn to speak, and she gets really upset about that and begins her like social justice quest for the animals, but she puts everyone to sleep using poppies, which, of course, if you know the 1939 film or the original L. Frank Baum book, the poppies put Dorothy to sleep while she's walking the yellow brick road. And so I thought here they are using those poppies again. They found a way to, to tie those things and, you know, have that element included. Sarah Jack: This movie wanted to send some social justice messages and, you know, the animal culture that was under attack and being persecuted is something that is very, there's so many examples [00:19:00] in our history and in our modern world that that speaks to. So that is another one. Like with the burning effigy, that's not going to maybe affect everybody the same way, but I feel like what you see happening with the professor and the animals is not as subtle. Not that a burning effigy is subtle, but it was a clear statement. Josh Hutchinson: It's something that everybody's going to recognize something that's going on today that is reminiscent of the treatment of the animals, the persecution and suppression the animals, because, the animals, they're, you know. In Wicked, the animals begin, they're basically like humans in animal form. They speak, they're intelligent, they can have friendships with humans, and so [00:20:00] forth. They're suppressed and animals start disappearing. I really loved that they included the scene with Dr. Dillamond talking to his animal friends the, in his room, and they're having a little secret hush hush meeting because they can't be caught meeting together anymore, because that would look seditious to the wizard and, and his side of things, which Elphaba doesn't realize that the wizards behind it at first either. What's going on with the animals and them being banned from teaching, they're being banned from preaching. They're being banned from basically any involvement with humans other than as what we think in the real world, the role that animals play as pets and workers and so forth. So they're, they're really suppressed and treated as subhuman. [00:21:00] They're totally dehumanized, and, you know, like with that cage, they don't want the animals to speak anymore. They want them to be quiet, and the board, when Dr. Dillimond flips it over in an earlier scene, says animals should be seen and not heard, which is very upsetting. Sarah Jack: It's very upsetting. These animals are contributing to society. They're intelligent. They have, you know, they're not, they're being devalued, but they're actually are very valuable to society. Sarah Jack: Yes. Yeah. And. I said, through, through your own personal lens, you'll see things going on now and you'll know things that have happened in the past that really remind you of what's going on with the animals. There are so many for me. I hope people [00:22:00] think about Sarah Jack: it's just not a stretch of the imagination whatsoever. Josh Hutchinson: There's so many different ways that you could apply that to today's world and to the world history because, you know, this cycle of persecution has been going on and we've talked about this a little before, the label "witch," as just meaning, you know, an othered, bad person who's dangerous to us, could be a witch, whoever the witch in that sense of the word is changes from time to time. so, You know, the witch has been Jewish people, the witch has been black people, the witch has been feminists, the witch has been the LGBTQ, um, there's been so many witches over time, it might [00:23:00] be the people in the country next to you, um, who are the witches and, I mean, this is anywhere in the world, these kinds of things have been applied to so many where we just label someone as being this bad guy. And they said something about it in the film. There's a part where they talk about how, Sarah Jack: the Wizard talks about how to unite people, you create an enemy. And so he created the animals as being the enemy, because he tired of the discord in Oz. Sarah Jack: Yeah, but then in the next breath, they, they trade that in for Elphaba. She's there, not the enemy, boom, Madame Morrible trades it in. Well, the animal that their usefulness was done, and, it was pretty much squashed. I mean, they, appears that they gotten that handled. [00:24:00] And so then the new enemy is Elphaba. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. There's like announcements. You hear Morrible's voice all over Oz and they show it at Shiz. They show it in the Emerald City. People, there's pandemonium. People are running in the streets in panic because, oh, the Wicked Witch is coming. Like suddenly there's a Wicked Witch. There hasn't been a Wicked Witch before, as far as we know. And now there is one and she's the great enemy. And oh, by the way, she's green, so she's easy to spot. So. Easy to hunt her down and treat her as being different and different than human because she doesn't even look like us. Sarah Jack: Would you like to talk about the friendship and love? Josh Hutchinson: Yes. Sarah Jack: in Wicked? Josh Hutchinson: I definitely do want to talk about. Sarah Jack: It was amazing. Josh Hutchinson: it. It's such a good story, because Galinda [00:25:00] and Elphaba start out like their first big song that's the two of them together is Loathing. And, they just talk about how they loathe each other and well, they sing about how they loathe other, but they're always, even before that song starts, you know, they're at odds with each other at every moment and then they get stuck rooming together and they hate it and they hate each other and or loathe each other. So they're not off to a great start. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Josh Hutchinson: But then Glinda, or Galinda, as she's known at the time, Galinda, well, there's this dance, you see, and Galinda gets a boy to ask Elphaba's sister, Nessarose, who we haven't talked about yet,to ask her out to [00:26:00] the dance, because she's just sitting there by herself, while everybody else is running off to the dance club, and she, in the film and in the musical she's a wheelchair user and Galinda thinks that oh this will look like I'm doing a nice thing by getting the boy to do a favor for, you know, this girl, but really she's just trying to get the boy out of her own hair. But Nessarose is so happy. She beams at Elphaba and just is so like glittery faced. I would, I don't know, that's not a thing but maybe it is a thing. She's just so happy that Elphaba does something nice for Galinda, and then Galinda does something nice for Elphaba, and then they become really good friends. And scene where they had that, that's one when I was about [00:27:00] crying. I was starting to well up a little because it just tugs at the heartstrings the way, you know, Elphaba's isolated on the dance floor and everybody's laughing at her because she's wearing a funny hat. And Galinda goes and dances with her. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Josh Hutchinson: The goofiest Elphaba dance, kind of reminded me of the Elaine from Seinfeld, but it's just Sarah Jack: Oh, yeah. Josh Hutchinson: you know, arms flailing kind of dance. Yeah. Little shoulder moves and little, like whatever this thing was and. Sarah Jack: Yeah. yeah, I just was, I mean, I was there. I felt like I was right there in the, the, the film just really pulls you in. And Sarah Jack: there's another brand out there that we know as magical, but this one had the magic. Sarah Jack: This, I, I mean, [00:28:00] I have been to the magic place recently and in my seat in my theater, I felt Elphaba and Galinda's magic and Oz's magic. They really pulled that off. And that scene really does it. I mean, it is, you feel her isolation and this is something that really was a nod to the thread of courage from the original versions of Oz. They don't ever necessarily say courage in Wicked, but Elphaba was demonstrating that there in that scene, I think. So, and you're just like that turning point where Galinda decides that she's gonna go have fun with Elphaba with the silly dance. It's such a key moment. It is, you know, Elphaba was purposely, you know, [00:29:00] vulnerable right then and Galinda took the opportunity to become her friend right there in front of everybody. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it was so powerful. And this movie, the movie, and I know the musical also, they bring that friendship, female friendship so powerful in both of them. That's a big reason why Wicked's been a running on Broadway for over 20 years and has a touring show and shows in other locations. And, it's so massively successful largely because of that friendship story that you don't really expect from a story involving the so-called Wicked Witch of the West that, Oh, she once was young and she had friends. It's really amazing. Sarah Jack: Yeah. So we just talked about all of that. Josh Hutchinson: We danced around Fiyero. [00:30:00] We got to talk about all of that without bringing him up, but how fantastic was he? Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and Dancing Through Life, his grand, big entrance into the scene and the song Dancing Through Life, it's been stuck in my head since I got out of the theater,along with maybe a dozen other songs, but that one keeps coming through because it's so fun. But they do a lot in the scene also of dancing through life. So it's important. And Fiyero, the character of Fiyero in first Wicked movie, he's very interesting. He's a deeper, guy than kind of, he comes off across at the beginning, he seems just shallow and self-absorbed and, he's, they make him the ultimate [00:31:00] goof off character. He doesn't want to take anything seriously. He wants to dance through life. Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think it's interesting. So he's one of the main male figures.Wizard is one of the main male figures, and neither one is quite what they say they are. I don't know what that means. Josh Hutchinson: No. And one has power because he pretends to be powerful, the wizard. Where Prince Fiyero, he's a prince from the Winkie country, which they don't really get into what that is in the movie, but it's very heavily featured in the, this book, the original Wicked. And so he actually is born with real power over people, or at least his parents have authority over people. Yeah, he has authority where [00:32:00] the wizard usurps authority by being able to read a handful of words out of the Grimmerie, which is the ancient magical text in a language no one can read in Oz. Sarah Jack: Okay, I want to talk about Jeff Goldblum here. Fantastic. It was so great, Sarah Jack: Yeah. But I, I loved, I loved her trip to Oz. I loved her invitation to Oz. I loved her trip to Oz. You know, the, Wizomania, the, that was all fantastic. And I had seen an interview with the director and Jeff and Cynthia and Ariana and that huge Oz head was right there on the stage for the interview. I thought it was going to play a bigger part in the film. And it is amazing and remarkable, but they just got right to [00:33:00] Jeff, they got right to the Wizard himself. He couldn't wait to meet Elphaba. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I was surprised when he walks out from behind the head on his own, because we're so used to what happens in the 1939 film when Dorothy goes there and they, like, Toto runs around and finds the man behind the curtain that you're not like, don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And he's in there on his microphone telling people don't pay attention. Like where here, yeah, Goldbloom Wizard walks out voluntarily, because he's eager to meet Elphaba, because, as is revealed several minutes later, he has a plan for her. He has something that he needs her to do for him. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Okay. So then actually I want to say another thing about my experience watching this. We get to this [00:34:00] point in the film, and I remember thinking, how come I haven't been scared yet? There hasn't really been anything scary. I, I was thinking it was probably more like childhood fear that I was hoping would be evoked a little bit more. Sarah Jack: And it wasn't there, but that changed too. Once Elphaba has the Grimmerie, the next few scenes are just brutal. And I just, man, that was, that was something. I'm talking about the flying monkeys. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Sarah Jack: That was scary and it was scary what was happening to them. but they were scary. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. What happens to them when they're transformed to sprout wings all of a sudden from their back, these gigantic wings just breaking the flesh and clothing and coming out? The [00:35:00] poor, Chistery, the head of the Emerald Guard is writhing on the floor and like, you really feel his pain and what he's going through the animations on those monkeys were just really powerful. You first see it with one and then they go into another room and all the guards that were lining the hallway are all on the floor and jumping on walls. They're trying to, like, not feel this pain anymore. Sarah Jack: And you know what I felt like when Elphaba meets him before she walks up to the Grimmerie and is able to read it, it's like they were kind of, unless I was imagining it, cause I was just so pulled into the story, I wondered if he had been able to talk before and couldn't talk. Like, I felt like he wanted to say something to her. [00:36:00] Cause I feel like they just like paused on his face and his eyes, you know, were looking at her and they showed her eyes. And I just was like, you know why he can't talk. He lost it. Sarah Jack: Yeah. I really want to see what they do with him in the, in part two. yeah. Because he has a pretty significant role in Gregory Maguire's novel, Chistery, and he, does involve speech in his role there. So, be interesting to see what happens. But yeah, when the, the once the flying monkeys go after Elphaba, because Morrible goes out there and tells them that Elphaba's responsible, it wasn't the wizard's idea, it was Elphaba who did it, and they need to go after her, and they're all in a lot of pain, and they fly off in a [00:37:00] rage, and suddenly they're flinging themselves at windows as Elphaba and Glinda make their way down this, you know, one of those long hallways that they only make for movies like this.That exact hall Josh Hutchinson: With a lot of windows and it's high above the city, the Emerald city, they're up real high and these monkeys are flying and full force, like throwing their bodies at these windows. And the first time it happened, like everyone in the theater jumped a little bit, so this comes as a surprise at the beginning, I believe, but they are, they're fearsome, you know, adversaries. Sarah Jack: That Grimmerie was amazing. The way it opened, the way the spells came up off the page, and the language that she read the [00:38:00] spells in, I was so thrilled. Josh Hutchinson: Yes, I loved that she did this spell and she's pronouncing these mysterious spell words, like, which is what you think that a spell is like. It's some mystery language, you know, repetitive, repeating of syllables and things kind of magic. Sarah Jack: Maybe I missed this, you know, when they're, there's a couple times that Elphaba's in the forest. She's, it's not scary really. And I know with Oz there's, the, the MGM Oz, there's the scary trees and I don't feel like there are any Easter eggs or nods to talking trees. I would have liked to have seen at least a face on a tree, but maybe I missed it. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Maybe they're saving that for the second part. Sarah Jack: Could be, but I did the, one of the other Easter eggs that was in it was when they're rescuing the cub [00:39:00] and they bicycle out of there and put the cub in the basket, like Toto went in the basket. That was fabulous. Josh Hutchinson: see that because it like seeing Elphaba on the bike, you reminded me of MGM watching, the Wicked Witch and the mean lady in Kansas riding the bicycle and Dorothy sees her like riding in the air around the house while it's flying in the cyclone, just I had that image Josh Hutchinson: I guess I can't do the music from that sequence, but you guys I'm talking about from Sarah Jack: and then you just. Sarah Jack: You mentioned the cyclone and I feel like the, the, just a little nod. There was a little nod to when, when, Glinda's like, I like the air and she puts her hair out the window. Like that was a little one. And then obviously there's a storm later, but, yeah, I just, Josh Hutchinson: [00:40:00] Yeah, that storm's spectacular, too. Sarah Jack: Yeah. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I love the green flashes in the sky. Very awesome. the end in the Defying Gravity sequence. Sarah Jack: I Hope You're Happy. Sarah Jack: I really look forward to being able to see the stage musical because I want to see the songs in that kind of environment and presented like that. Sarah Jack: Sarah Jack: Yeah. I know there's, there's a lot of power in going to see a live performance, and you can really feel very close to a story by being in the same room as the people acting it out and singing and playing instruments and all that stuff. You get to see this whole world coming to life in front of you and it feels very immediate. I'm ready to go see the [00:41:00] Nutcracker. Josh Hutchinson: I was thinking about a Christmas Carol, but like the film also brought a lot of immediacy, I thought, with the ability to do closeups, you know, you can pan back and see the whole world, or you can get really close and intimate with somebody's face and you really get pulled in that way by being able to see the nuances, the little, micro expressions and so forth in people's faces. Josh Hutchinson: Sarah Jack: So Josh, do we consider Madame Morrible a witch? Josh Hutchinson: She is a witch. She is a sorceress. You can call it by different names. She's a professor of magic. She's a spellcaster. She's a lot of things. She's not labeled [00:42:00] witch by anybody in the movie. That's important to note. Where Elphaba gets labeled the wicked witch at the very end, none of the other characters are actually, even Glinda's not called a good witch in this first film, so. Sarah Jack: But her little friends keep saying how good she is. That was so funny. Josh Hutchinson: was Sarah Jack: so good. Josh Hutchinson: Her and her friends and the, her friends,just every time she does something that's outwardly seems like she's doing a nice thing for somebody, they're just like, oh, she's so good. She is such a good one. She's so good. Like all through the movie, they're just saying that, reinforcing that she has this, she's able to build a reputation as being almost saintly or, you know, whatever she's. She's the good witch [00:43:00] without the label witch yet. Josh Hutchinson: Even though she did, because Elphaba got her into the sorcery seminar, and they call it sorcery not witchcraft, which is also something to note. But it's interesting because we also know just going back to the original Oz, and people are familiar enough with this story, this isn't giving much away for what happens. When know that there, in the original Oz, there's a Wicked Witch of the East and a Wicked Witch of the West, and then you have a Good Witch of the South and a Good Witch of the North, so there's like the four corner cardinal directions all are represented by some kind of witch, two good ones and two evil ones or wicked ones, I should say. So we know that we're going to see Glinda become the good [00:44:00] witch, but we don't know yet, who's going to be this Wicked Witch of the East who's Elphaba's counterpart, so I don't want to reveal who that is yet, if you're not familiar with the novel or the musical and you haven't seen the film yet um, because that's not going to happen yet, be revealed for another year when part two comes out, so anyways, we have you know, one wicked witch, a sorceress, a phony baloney wizard, a learning Glinda student of sorcery. So you can see there's kind of, basically you could just say there's four witches if you wanted to, even though one's a male. Sarah Jack: When you were, just reminding us that, you know, It can be anyone who's an accused witch today. That made me think [00:45:00] about childhood Elphaba being used to illustrate like her, her childhood character's there. Elphaba as a child is in this film more than once, but they don't show many of the characters that young. So I was just thinking about, you know, obviously, unfortunately there are children that are branded as witches today, too. Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and watching Elphaba grow up you can see that people are suspicious of her at an early age and like you said, coming out of the womb, she's already doing magic. She does this involuntary magic whenever she's upset, um, so it's just this emotional driven magic. And she in, right when she comes out of the room, out of the womb, into the room, [00:46:00] she, levitates all these objects in the room up to the ceiling. And it's quite remarkable. And then there's a scene where children are picking on her and she gets angry and something happens to those children. And then she gets yelled at by her father, "what have you done now, Elphaba?" Sarah Jack: And do you think that there was purpose, whether, I mean, it's really illustrated in the film, but, Elphaba's character seems to be the one that feels the most. And I don't mean those, those necessarily just those moments where her magic flares up, but she's the one that is thinking and looking outside, you know, what is popular and really evaluating what's happening, and then she's also the one that has power in the form of magic. Josh Hutchinson: She has, now see she's an interesting portrayal of a [00:47:00] witch, because she has this innate power but she's also othered, and therefore, she's people try to render her powerless. She fights back. And, so, but she also, you know, how stereotypically, a witch is like a poor, old crone who lives alone in a, like on the edge of a swamp or deep in the woods somewhere. And Elphaba doesn't have that upbringing. She's the daughter of the governor of Munchkinland. And so she's born into privilege just like Glinda is, or Galinda, born into privilege. They both, their families have servants, and [00:48:00] Elphaba is raised by a nanny, and so her family has resources. Josh Hutchinson: So what I'm thinking is that, you know, people have this image of the, of, always went after the poorest people. And certainly the, you know, that happened a lot. You look at a case like Sarah Good in Salem. You know, she's out asking people for gifts because she can't support herself and her husband can't support the family. But you also have people caught up in witch trials who were middle class or even who were wealthy, like Philip and Mary English in Salem witch trials were the wealthiest people in Salem and got caught up in it. So when I look at Wicked, I'm seeing all these different kinds of [00:49:00] Witches in it, because they all have different backgrounds and characteristics and their lives really shape what kind of witch they become. Sarah Jack: And I think it's something to reflect on that Wicked the film, the most evil thing is the mob mentality or the groupthink. It is the character, you know, on either side of each other, the neighbor, the friend together, you know, those that are, you know, extinguishing the animals, those that decide that Elphaba is the Wicked Witch. I don't know in the future what wicked she may do, but from what we've seen of the story, there wasn't an evil source of power, but there was an evil source of [00:50:00] hurt happening to citizens in Oz. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, hmm, she's not sworn an allegiance to any kind of devil figure or anything like that. Her power, she came by her power naturally, which is interesting. Josh Hutchinson: But, I think, do you think, you know, L. Frank Baum kind of put, flipped witch stereotypes on their head by introducing the idea that there could be a good witch, and then Wicked the novel took that further, by introducing the concept of, you know, a gray area kind of between wicked and good, where, which is the reality that everybody actually lives in, is the space between wicked and good. No, nobody's entirely either one. And, I love exploring that area. Then in [00:51:00] Wicked and in the movie, you really see all of those shades that come between this black-and-white world of good and evil. You see everything that's in between and another way that they change the portrayal of witches is again and I guess L. Frank Baum really started it, because the Wizard, the male figure, patriarch of Oz is a a phony. He can't do any of that real magic. He does the other kind of magic, which is sleight of hand and illusions and things like that so he has a big, giant head that talks and it's supposed to be him. He also takes other forms in the books, so, um, you know, he's effectively powerless. And he has all the power, [00:52:00] but it doesn't come from himself, it comes from these lies that he builds around himself. Whereas the women actually like have, Madame Morrible is a powerful sorceress. Elphaba is a powerful witch. Glinda, we know, is coming into her power. So you've got really, it's a patriarchally run world, but suddenly you've got these three powerful women in it. And what's that going to do? How's that going to shape the next movie? Josh Hutchinson: I've been intrigued by how it's the wonderful wizard, but it's also the terrible wizard. And they did say terrible. He did say terrible in Wicked today. And I was kind of, I was like glad to hear it. I think we always, you know, think the powerful and wonderful and terrible. Josh Hutchinson: You know, that other movie that came out [00:53:00] last decade, Oz the Great and Powerful. He's both great, which can mean a lot of different things, and powerful. Where we know that really he's not so powerful, but he has everybody believing that he is. Sarah Jack: So was there anything else that you loved or that really surprised you? Josh Hutchinson: I was like really happy to see the ruby slippers slipped in there. They had both, they had the silver and the ruby. Josh Hutchinson: yes. Yeah. Those slippers, they've. It was interesting that in, in this one, the slippers, they mentioned because,Elphaba and Nessarose's father gives slippers Nessa Rose. And that's a significant moment where he's got a gift for her, but he's got nothing [00:54:00] but grumpiness and anger for Elphaba. So, that's another moment that actually means, like, isolating Elphaba. Sarah Jack: Yeah, and she feels like she deserves that because she blames herself for Nessa's disabilities. Josh Hutchinson: When Elphaba and Nessarose's father gives Nessa those shoes, he says, these were your mother's. Josh Hutchinson: They're not at this moment in time in part one, the shoes are not special yet. Sarah Jack: She doesn't even put them on then. She's seen in a scene right after that with not those shoes on. Josh Hutchinson: shoes. Yeah. She must put them, tuck them away because they're so special being from her mother, who she never in Wicked the movie. And I also in the musical, Nessa never knows, never knows her mother because her mother [00:55:00] dies, giving childbirth to Nessarose. So, which is a little different than what happens in the novel. Josh Hutchinson: What's your favorite scene from a staging standpoint? There are like, I really love one of the dances when they're in the spinning contraption and Sarah Jack: yeah, Josh Hutchinson: around on the ladders. I thought that really took a lot of coordination to line up that scene, the choreography and the moving, literal moving parts of the set. Sarah Jack: Yeah. I got very excited. I pretty sure I almost clapped. I didn't, but I was like, when I like saw what that room looked like, and them putting the books. I was like, oh my goodness, they're going to be dancing there. It's going to spin around. It's going to be awesome. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, now, you know, if you were to ask me my favorite scene of the film, [00:56:00] that's the Defying Gravity sequence. The part when Elphaba takes flight for the first time. I found that to be very powerful and also very just entertaining and cool. You know, it's very action-packed and dramatic and bold and, just watching, you know, the stunt work in the film is incredible. I've watched a lot of behind the scenes stuff in the lead up to this, and just the number of times they had actors on wires, flinging them through the air at like top speed, and, and they would be singing. You can watch their, their mouth moving the whole time that they're, I'm like, how do you even concentrate while you're being flung through the air like that? So there's a lot of really cool scenes. There's a lot of great action in it. We've talked about a lot of the [00:57:00] emotions and the themes and the undertones and, and that kind of stuff, but there's, it's an action film too. Sarah Jack: It is an action film. Yeah. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, so, if you don't like musicals, but you like magic and awesome special effects and stunts, it's really a great film. Sarah Jack: Oh. And you know, the other part that was really great too is just the, the script, like what they're saying and the very special new words that sound like words you know, that are words you know, but don't sound like themselves. That was amazing. Josh Hutchinson: I love the Ozian language with words like horrendable. They're quite fun. They just take, take a word and throw a twist on it. So as the you still understand what they're saying, but it's kind of Seussian or something. It's [00:58:00] a fun way of Ozifying a word. Josh Hutchinson: Cause There's almost nothing that I could criticize about this film. I loved it. Josh Hutchinson: A lot of the stuff, it was like this, you're like looking and seeing so much at once, but then at other times you really are only seeing like a little bit, you know, a more defined, smaller space. Josh Hutchinson: I liked that variety because one of the good things that I really like about that you can do with musicals is make the scenes really come like there's a lot, so much movement at once. In other words, all the dancers, the choreography, people are moving in different directions, coming at each other, away from each other. You know, you see all these different kinds of people moving around on the screen in different ways at the same time. Sarah Jack: Yeah. And they really, in this, in the film, the props and the, the [00:59:00] large, the little props and the big, the furnace, like so much is used in the choreography. It's great. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's another thing I love about musicals, and they did that especially well in this movie, using the entire, like, the sets were practical pieces, because every piece of it is used in some somewhere in the choreography. You've got Galinda gliding, hanging on a ceiling fan at one point going in a circle. You know, people are jumping off walls. There's ladders. There's all kinds of moving parts. Sarah Jack: Which, I really want to point out that I felt like that was a real statement. You had Galinda singing in her room that she, you know, it was To use a word that Jane Barnette used this week in her interview with her that I loved, frothy. It was a frothy room and Galinda's frothy and she does this frothy little flying around in this room, [01:00:00] but the sky is not the limit there. When Elphaba actually flies, the sky is the limit. And I really, I saw, you know, that comparison as significant. Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. That reminds me of something else I wanted to say about witch representation. You have the pinkness, another word that Professor Barnette used earlier this week. The pinkness of Glinda and her, Galinda's room is just so stuffed with pink, primarily there's a few other colors in there. It's overwhelmingly pink and so, you know, pink of course being a color traditionally associated with females. While Elphaba there in contrast is in all black, which, you know, a color certainly associated with females, but it's. Like, so different than pink. Pink is like, [01:01:00] we associate it with cheerfulness and happiness and fun and bubbly, cutesy things and gentleness. And black is like a strong, like harsher color. It's a more powerful color. It is associated with evil but Elphaba just Sarah Jack: Independence, Josh Hutchinson: like she belongs in it. And she's not wicked. She's, she's nice. Sarah Jack: Thank you for joining us on Witch Hunt. Tune in Monday for a special interview with experts on Wicked and the representation of witches on stage and screen. Until then, have a great today and a wicked tomorrow.
Dive with us into one of the most infamous chapters of American history—the Salem Witch Trials. Returning to the show is author and host of The Salem Witch Trials Podcast, Greg Houle, who brings a unique perspective to these events through his historical fiction novel, The Putnams of Salem. As a descendant of Thomas Putnam Jr., a key accuser in the trials, Greg has a personal connection to the story that inspired his writing.
Greg shares his journey in crafting The Putnams of Salem, exploring how his lineage influenced his portrayal of the historical figures involved. Greg’s innovative storytelling approach in his book, which features a dual narrative from the perspectives of Thomas Putnam Jr. and his daughter Ann, offers fresh insights into the trials’ dynamics.
In this conversation we discuss the complexities of the Salem Witch Trials, and the significance of challenging common misconceptions and humanizing the individuals through podcasting and writing. We also discuss how his successful podcast, The Salem Witch Trials Podcast, complements his novel by offering deeper insights..
Throughout our conversation, we examine themes of fear, frontier conflicts, and the personal motivations of those involved in the trials, offering a nuanced perspective that only descendants could provide on a widely misunderstood episode in American history.
Whether you’re a history buff, a fiction lover, or simply curious about the Salem Witch Trials, this episode by Salem descendants promises a fascinating discussion on how fiction can shed light on historical truths and the complexities of the past.
Meet Lori Prescott Hansen and Matthew C. S. Julander writer and co-director of the upcoming film I Be a Witch. The film tells the story of Lori’s ancestor, Salem witch trial victim Ann Foster of Andover Massachusetts. Ann’s story is told through visions and memories that Ann is experiencing during her last days in the Salem jail. Lori and Matthew reflect together on the making of the movie and the impactful lessons the history offers.
[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, the show that asks why we hunt witches and how we can stop hunting witches. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:19] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack, and today we speak with Lori Prescott Hansen and Matthew C. S. Julander about their film, I Be a Witch.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: The film tells the stories of Lori's ancestor, Salem Witch Trial victim Ann Foster of Andover. Based on actual events, Ann's story is told through visions and memories Ann is experiencing during her last days in the Salem jail.
[00:00:43] Sarah Jack: Welcome Lori Prescott Hansen, Salem Witch Trial descendant, writer, and actress, and I Be a Witch film director, Matthew C. S. Julander.
[00:00:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: I'm Lori Prescott Hanson. I always throw in the Prescott, because I live in a small town, and there's five Lori Hansons just here. My husband and I have been theater artists for a long time. We actually met in a production of King Lear. And we began to do professional storytelling quite a while ago. And we've been doing that ever since. He taught theater at the university here for 20 years, and I did a lot of directing of shows here and here in small town, Idaho as far as being a storyteller goes, there's not a lot of venues unless you create them yourself. And so that's what led me along the path of doing one person shows. And this one about Ann is the second one I've done. And so that's my background. Matthew, take it away.
[00:01:47] Matthew C. S. Julander: So I'm in Utah. I went to film school at Brigham Young University and then zapped off to Los Angeles for close to 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make my way into the film industry in earnest. So I worked on a few shows and made some corporate videos and just bounced around.
And then eventually decided to move back to Utah. And at which point I met Sherry Julander, who I then married and she is the lady who co directed our movie. And also adapted the screenplay from Lori's one-woman show. And so the story goes that I don't know, two years ago Sherry comes to me and says, 'Hey, I have some friends who are putting on a one woman show up in Idaho,' so we drove for six hours and like about hour one of the drive, she said, Oh, by the way, it's a middle aged woman doing a one woman show. And she was worried that I was going to hate the whole thing and want to turn
[00:02:43] Lori Prescott Hansen: it under wraps.
[00:02:44] Matthew C. S. Julander: But so she waited until we got far enough along that I was stuck. So we went up and watched it, and the story is really compelling. I was just struck. And so I, as soon as the lights came up, I turned to Sherry and said, we, do you want to try and make a short film out of this? And thus was hatched our little plot here. What started as something that was going to be a 25 to 30 minute movie has ballooned up to a short feature length movie. And now we're on your podcast.
[00:03:16] Lori Prescott Hansen: Sherry was actually a former student of my husband's. And so we had worked together. I've done plays with her in the past. And we had talked years ago about wanting to do something around Salem just because we've both always been intrigued by the subject. Then I found out later my ancestor was actually one of the accused women, and Sherry said that name sounds so familiar and she went back and checked her personal history and lo and behold we are both descendants of Ann Foster. We felt a real a real bond and a real kinship doing that. And something that we meandered around years ago finally became a reality.
[00:03:58] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. What's it like to find out that your friend is also your cousin?
[00:04:03] Lori Prescott Hansen: It couldn't have happened to a nicer person. I love her. I love her to death. And she is an amazing actor as well as screenwriter, and she and Matthew are a force together to be reckoned with, as far as film production. We're really excited that they joined on.
[00:04:23] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah and I also have a common Salem ancestor. We started doing this show, and then found out that we're cousins.
[00:04:31] Lori Prescott Hansen: Really?
[00:04:33] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're both from Mary Esty.
[00:04:36] Lori Prescott Hansen: Oh, wow.
[00:04:38] Josh Hutchinson: yes.
[00:04:39] Lori Prescott Hansen: Yeah. You hear all these names and there's so many stories. So many stories. Yeah.
[00:04:48] Sarah Jack: Do you wanna tell us about Ann Foster's story?
[00:04:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: My son called me one day. He's known as a storyteller. I've always been drawn to crone figures, to wise women, to that sort of thing. And jokingly have always said I'm part witch. But he called me one day and said, "did you know that you are related to an accused witch of Salem?" And it just floored me. And I, cause I had no idea. So I went back and he showed me the timeline, the link from grandmother to grandmother. And she's my 11th great grandmother. And so I began to just read into her life, and the more I read, the more compelled I was and because her story is so unique and uniquely tragic, because of the elements in her life that it just it just pulled me in, and I wanted to do something about and for this woman that I felt a real kinship to. So that's the kernel of the beginning of it for me and my appeal to Ann, because like I say, even if she weren't a relation, her story is so compelling, because it's very unique in its own right. Go for it, Matthew.
What was it about Ann that sucked you in as a non relation?
[00:06:14] Matthew C. S. Julander: Something that I found striking about this whole process is how much of just the dialogue in our movie is pulled straight from like court reports. This is apparently what, at least whoever was writing it down, got, is the exact things that people were saying. And so that makes it very it does make it very personal.
And you're saying, 'oh my gosh, this isn't just a story, this isn't the Avengers, this is like a real person that all this stuff happened to.' So as we set about to make a movie of it, in large part we just followed what we saw Lori when she put on the one woman show, but we, we treated it with a certain degree of gravity or reverence or care, because we wanted to keep it a true story. We wanted to keep it true to what, as far as we can tell, Ann Foster might've really felt. I have a feeling that Lori might be, I don't know, a feistier person than Ann was? Because I'm told that at the time of, yeah, maybe Ann was feistier in her younger years, but at the time of her incarceration, she'd gotten on in years and she was quite feeble.
[00:07:20] Lori Prescott Hansen: No one will ever accuse me of being feeble.
[00:07:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: But on the other hand, just from the life that she led and some of the things that she did that were contrary to what would have been culturally accepted, especially since being culturally accepted was, I think it was a much bigger deal for the Puritans in New England. I think she probably was a feisty lady. She probably was a little bit of a rebellious lady. And maybe she was forced to be that way just because she married a guy who was way too old for her and defied some expectations.
So in any case, it was really interesting being able to look into the life of this very real person and have some of the words that she came up with when she was in the trial, when she was giving her confession and just trying to not just see through that window, but try and open that window up to other people so they could see into it as well.
[00:08:14] Josh Hutchinson: And so this began as a solo project, a one person play, and then evolved from there. What can you tell us about the one woman play?
[00:08:27] Lori Prescott Hansen: When I began writing this whole thing, I began it through a storytelling approach. I was going to tell her story third person. And I actually wrote it out, and I began reading it to my husband, and I realized it was so boring, and it sounded like a book report. And so I played around with combinations of narration and then character, and that became really singsongy back and forth and he finally said one day, you just need to write it as a play. And so I did. I take on other voices throughout the script but not a lot. It's mostly her own voice, her own words. My creation, but it's through her voice. And yeah, it was really well received where I've done it. I've only really done it a handful of times.
But the thing that really turned the corner for me on writing it was my husband again, who is also a playwright, said to me one day, 'you're writing it like you're writing about a woman who knows she's going to die. And he said, that's not interesting. You should be writing about a woman who is fighting to live.' And that was like a huge light bulb moment for me, and I realized he was exactly right, and that's when the writing really began to flow.
And like I say, it was really well received. I was really very proud of it. When Sherry and Matthew came up and saw it and they talked to us about it directly after the show, honestly, I feel such a, not ownership, but such a, this is my thing. And I was really afraid to turn what I had envisioned and done over to someone else. And if it hadn't been that it was Matthew and Sherry, I may never have said, 'okay, you can take this and do it you want with it.' But I did. And I couldn't have been more happy.
They were true to Ann. They were true to her story. They were true to how I envisioned the show, and they only heightened it with a full cast and fleshed out dialogue and lots of scenes in the jail. And anyway, so that was the metamorphosis of it for me.
[00:10:57] Sarah Jack: Is there anything about her history, the story, that you want to share today?
[00:11:03] Matthew C. S. Julander: I can give you like a slight overview of what what the story is about. So Ann Foster was in Andover. She was not among the first people that were accused or tried for witchcraft. Her story started because there was a man in her town. So Joseph Ballard's wife was ill and he thought maybe it was witchcraft. He had heard about all these people getting accused and convicted of witchcraft in Salem, so he went down to Salem and grabbed some of the teenagers who had been accusing people and brought them back up to Andover.
And they spotted Ann Foster and accused her of being a witch. And so then she was dragged in and eventually tried, convicted, and set up in the the Salem jail. We basically tell that story and something that's interesting. This is maybe not so much about Ann's story, but it's more about how this, the way that we tell the story is like structured.
When Lori wrote this script, she wasn't following like the formulaic stuff that they use for say, like writing screenplays. Whereas the story that we told it's almost as if the inciting moment happens before the story starts. And it happens like in a flashback because the whole story is told from Ann Foster's perspective in the Salem jail. And the question that we're trying to put into the minds of the audience right out of the gate is, 'okay how did she get here? What happened? How did this madness ensue?'
And then she just tells the whole story. She goes back to the whole Salem witch like craziness, to her earlier life. She talks about how she was married to a man who was quite a bit older than she was. She talked about her children. She talks about something that happens, one of the terrible events that happens to one of her children, which maybe I don't want to reveal yet, because you have to watch the movie. All these things could have had an influence on why the people of the time thought, 'oh, yeah, that makes sense that Ann Foster would be a witch.'
[00:13:00] Lori Prescott Hansen: Because when you're already the other, you're a sitting duck.
[00:13:03] Matthew C. S. Julander: She was already like an easy target for the accusations. I think that everybody who does a Salem witch trial story or tries to tell the story, the central question is, 'how did this happen?' It's always, 'how did this happen? How did these people get to the point where they're actually executed people for a thing that nowadays we see is just like being a fiction, just completely made up?
And so we tried to get in there, too. And because we have Ann's personal story. And some of the things that she said, we have some of her words, we can say, okay, this is at least the perspective of one person, how she was able to, how she sees it ,why she was dragged into it.
One of the striking things for me is that Ann Foster herself, in our dialogue, she says, 'Oh, I believe there's witches. I'd just be not one of them.' That's not the exact quote, but it's close. So it's oh yeah, everybody believed that it was real. But everyone also knew about I'm not one, though.
We even got into the idea that some people maybe started toying with the idea that, 'am I a witch? Maybe I've had bad thoughts about this person or that person. Maybe I projected some evil onto that person. Maybe that's some witchcraft. Maybe I'm somehow involved.' And that's the sort of thing that allowed it to roll.
[00:14:21] Lori Prescott Hansen: That's one Ann's lines in it is, 'can one be a witch and not know it?' Which is an interesting question. The most poignant question to me that we raise in the script is a line of Ann's. She's in jail. She's been there quite a long time. And she says, 'so what do you do with a broken, old witch?' No one's paying for her to get out, whether they could or chose not to, we really don't know. She's there for the duration until she dies
[00:14:52] Matthew C. S. Julander: Spoiler alert.
[00:14:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: So what do you do with people like this that are the throwaways? Even though your sentence has been stayed, you're still a convicted witch. That's probably the most poignant question to me in the film is 'what do you do with a broken, old witch?'
[00:15:12] Matthew C. S. Julander: And it's maybe not a question that we answer in great detail. It's something that the audience is left to think about for themselves. Because since we stay in Ann's, in her perspective, in her mind the whole time, it's yeah, we don't know why her son Andrew never showed up to pay the jailer's fees.
[00:15:30] Lori Prescott Hansen: Abraham is the one that paid to take her body. They paid to retrieve her body. They did not pay to have, you had to pay for everything. You had to pay for your straw. You had to pay for your chains. You had to pay for your food or water, anything. And we don't know if they didn't have the money to pay her way out or whether they chose not to. We know they did not sign the petition that the town raised when everyone had decided enough was enough. Whether they didn't want to bring more attention to her story or there's just so many questions that we don't have answers to.
[00:16:07] Matthew C. S. Julander: So we asked the questions.
[00:16:09] Lori Prescott Hansen: We asked the questions, and we did take a bit of a slant on things, because we realized if we're going to do this project, we have to make choices. We can't just have the whole thing be ambivalent. We have to make some choices. I hope they were the right ones, but we'll see.
[00:16:28] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think the creative piece of telling the story is an essential part. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys have put together.
[00:16:38] Matthew C. S. Julander: So are we!
[00:16:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: Me too.
We actually just did our first submission of it.
[00:16:45] Matthew C. S. Julander: That's a rough cut.
[00:16:47] Lori Prescott Hansen: It's this close to being done, but we were able to slip it in on a deadline that was important to us. Yeah, it's very close. We actually, the four of us traveled three weeks ago? Four weeks ago? We actually flew out to Andover and Salem and met with some people out there and particularly in Andover we met with a woman that works at the North Church, which is the congregation Ann would have been part of. We met with the caretaker of the cemetery on the South side of Andover.
We met with Jill Christiansen from the Salem Witch Museum, and she was very, very helpful and very kind. And in fact, all of them were, and it just, we really hope to be able to do a screening in, I would really prefer Andover to Salem, because that's where it began, and that's where it would be full circle. So anyway, we've talked to a few people and nothing's set in stone, but we're excited, excited.
[00:17:58] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of people don't realize the involvement of Andover, even though Andover had more accused than Salem did.
[00:18:10] Lori Prescott Hansen: And Martha Carrier was from Andover. It's almost treated as an afterthought in some ways to Salem, and I guess that's probably because of the hype.
And I think there are many people in Andover that feel those strong, still connections to their history.
[00:18:30] Matthew C. S. Julander: It's striking as we went to the graveyard at the South church in Andover and then the other, the cemetery it's up closer to the North Church. When we went to those places and we looked at gravestones, I was struck that very often the people who were buried in, the official graveyard, the official cemetery, are what I would now consider the villains of this story, lots of the judges, but none of the people who were accused of witchcraft and then who would not cop to it.
The ones who would never give up and say yes, I'm a witch. The ones who actually maintain their integrity, those are the ones that don't get to be buried there. And, it's not even sure where many of them any of them, are buried. Because even the ones that were officially hanged, it's they have a, there's a Walgreens. Up the street from, that's where the which memorial is it?
[00:19:23] Josh Hutchinson: That's the Proctor's Ledge,
[00:19:25] Matthew C. S. Julander: the proctor's ledge. So they have a sense of, we think they must be buried here or here, but it's not really known.
[00:19:33] Sarah Jack: It's the exact situation in Connecticut with their victims and the, the founders that ran the witch trials and those kind of things. Their statues are there honoring the history, the impact of their history. And we worked on an exoneration project for the Connecticut victims last year, and the state did pass a bill apologizing to the 34 indicted, 11 hanged.
Now we're working on. State memorial for the victims and one of the things that we're up against is making room for these accused because there's already, all the space is taken by those who have already been buried and honored and,
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: in a lot of cases are the accusers.
[00:20:24] Sarah Jack: They are the accusers. When you started talking about that, I'm like, oh my goodness, there's some other ancient burial grounds in New England, it's the same situation.
[00:20:32] Lori Prescott Hansen: And just following your Facebook posts and that, I realized that the Connecticut thing has been a passion project for you a labor of love, and,
[00:20:43] Sarah Jack: Yeah. It was interesting because there were local Connecticut residents and advocates and descendants who, for many years, have tried to get an acknowledgment. And then last year when North Andover was working on Elizabeth Johnson Jr. 's exoneration. It was happening during the 375th anniversary of the hanging of Alice Young who was the first hanged in Connecticut and it just seemed so unfair that nobody knows her name. She has not been apologized to, and it really just fired a bunch of us up and everything, it was just the right timing. The politicians there were ready to make an attempt, and so this project, which we've talked quite a bit about in several episodes, it was a passion, and we all came together and found a route to that apology.
[00:21:37] Lori Prescott Hansen: Wow.
[00:21:39] Sarah Jack: But now they need a memorial. There's a few individual bricks in some of the local towns honoring some specific victims, but there's nothing. Nothing, there's no monument for the history, so that's what's next. We'll see how that unfolds.
[00:21:59] Lori Prescott Hansen: Yeah. Because people don't even really think of Connecticut. It's that Salem story, no, it was all over. Yeah. Connecticut was earlier than Salem and Massachusetts, wasn't it?
[00:22:13] Josh Hutchinson: It, yes, it began much earlier, started in 1647, so 45 years before. But Andover also, there's not, a specific site to go to in Andover to remember the victims from there. And there were, what was it? 45 or 48 people accused from Andover? Very high number. And there's nothing there, there's no plaque, there's no statue, there's no wall or benches or
[00:22:52] Matthew C. S. Julander: Something that when we set out to make this movie, making movies can be a pretty A large undertaking. Although this movie was quite small by comparison to some. We shot the entire thing in a 20 by 30 garage. So even though it is a period piece, we built a couple of sets.
So we have a prison set that is meant to look very realistic, and we had a Foster home set that ended up looking very realistic over the course of the shoot. The first scenes that we did in that, we only had two walls of that set, but later on, we built out the whole thing. In any Case it takes over your life for a while, because you end up realizing, oh, it's I'm building a house. There's something where you have to decide that you want to go through all the trouble, right? You have to tell yourself this is worth it. And so as we've been talking about the people who are past and the people who went through this incredibly unjust situation, and some of them lost their lives I, I was thinking, eh, whether you believe in an afterlife or not, I would think that those people, maybe it doesn't matter what we think of them now, right?
If you don't believe in an afterlife, then clearly they don't care. If you do believe in an afterlife, they might be busy with something else. And so it's maybe not so much for them that we do these memorials and that we try to try to set things right. It might be more for us. And so that's the thought that I had when we were making this film is, 'I want this film to be something that shows how that happened back then.'
In that sense, that those who don't learn from history will repeat it. If you do learn from history, hopefully you grow. And yeah. As we were making the film, I was always trying to think, okay, how is this going to affect people? How can we show people something that hopefully makes them into better people?
And the crazy thing about the whole witchcraft trial fervor that ran across Europe and then America in many cases, it wasn't as if there was some ulterior motive. But a lot of times it was just, I don't know, the arrogance of the judges. The arrogance of the people in their religion thinking that they were infallible. It was just, things got out of hand, and people's emotions were driven to a certain direction and there was no one to say, 'whoa, let's calm down. Let's think about this.' And so it seems like that is an informative lesson for us right now. And maybe always, everybody always likes to say, 'Oh, in our time, things are so tough.' And it's so similar to now. And you could say that about now, you could say that about probably any epic in the Earth's history as well.
In any case, it seems like it's a useful story for us to look at and say, 'Hey, do I have any prejudices? Do I have any arrogance? Do I have any beliefs that are untested that I'm so sure about that I would do something that might turn out to be reprehensible?' And I hopefully the movie and these stories, and even when we talk about the monuments and trying to call attention to it, so like Alice Young that nobody's ever heard of. If we can call attention to these people and say, 'look, these stories all happened,' hopefully that'll affect us now and say, 'okay I don't want to create another story for somebody 375 years from now to look back at and go,'
[00:26:06] Josh Hutchinson: And Ann Foster's story is so compelling because of so many reasons. You alluded to earlier something that happens to one of her daughters before the trials. And then there are things that happen to her family during the trials.
[00:26:27] Lori Prescott Hansen: Ann, humble, meek, fragile, old Ann was very well known, because of her family and what had happened in it. Everyone knew Ann Foster's history. She was very ripe for the picking. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Matthew C. S. Julander: I think that's actually an interesting thing about the story. So maybe most people's entrance into their understanding of the Salem Witch Trials is the Crucible. That seems to be the most famous story that's been told. But the Crucible sets it portrays John Proctor and is it Elizabeth Proctor? They're portrayed as having John had an affair, right? He's portrayed as having this sin that he committed.
Ann is interesting in that there's really no sin for her, but there is this circle of bad things that have happened, things that, okay, your son in law is a really bad guy though and maybe there's a little impropriety with this and maybe like your granddaughter is a bit of a mess. She's not being very Puritan. There was things that made it look like she could be looked at as being bad somehow.
I think that's a really important thing to look at in the story. If I were to tell another story from the witch trials, I maybe would want to do one about Rebecca Nurse, because she's theoretically like the perfect Puritan, just angelic in every way.
But the idea that I'm going at is some of these people who got roped up in this, they really were unimpeachable. I guess you can't say they were above reproach. They would probably, had their, personal interactions where they might get mad at somebody or do something that people would remember and think of them as having been sinful or wicked or something.
They really were just good people, just fairly honest, fairly good. People like hopefully you and me.
[00:28:10] Lori Prescott Hansen: And John Proctor himself, the same thing that, historically there was not an affair or anything like that. That was Arthur Miller's slant on it that pulled us all in. John Proctor was unique in that he didn't buy it, and he decided he was going to beat the witchcraft out of, was there, was it Mary Warren? And because he didn't go along with it, he was pegged.
The other thing that was interesting about Ann, too, with Joseph Ballard is that was the first time anyone had gone to Salem and literally recruited these girls and brought them back to Andover. And then they singled out Ann, who they already were aware of who she was, everyone was, but that was interesting to me, the lengths that he went to to find a witch, to literally go recruit the girls and bring them up to Andover from Salem.
[00:29:08] Josh Hutchinson: That was a major turning point in the course of the witch hunt, bringing them to Andover, starting that whole, it just snowballed after that, Andover, you had Martha Carrier accused previously to that, but it was limited to her.
And then that just opened the floodgates, and they had the mass touch test where they brought everybody in and had the afflicted people touch them to see if that cured them.
The touch test, basically the belief was that when a witch used their magic against their victim they're transferring this effluvia, this kind of substance from the witch to the victim, and then on contact, the substance would go back from the victim into the witch.
[00:30:09] Lori Prescott Hansen: A literal substance.
[00:30:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, a literal substance that they could...
Yeah, so they could beam at you through the evil eye
or they could get you with it, an image of you, there was, there were poppets and image magic and spells and curses. So they had a few ways to strike at you. But there were ways to cure. You just had to get really close to the person you thought had bewitched you.
[00:30:40] Matthew C. S. Julander: So what the part about it that was backwards is they would, they would blindfold or somehow make it so that the witch was unaware of who was touching them, but they would let the person, the afflicted, still be able to see. So when they did these touch tests, the afflicted person would come in, they'd know exactly who they were touching, so if they like, oh, it's Ann Foster is the one we're accusing. When I touch Ann Foster, I'm suddenly going to not be afflicted anymore, right? So they could clearly fake it. Whereas, Ann Foster didn't know who was touching her, right? So the idea was, 'we don't trust the witches, so we have to blindfold them. But clearly our accusers are perfectly honest, good people, so we don't have to blindfold them.'
And that's just you guys are very bad at interrogation. It never occurred to you that maybe the accusers are not being honest. If we're doing the test, either they're being honest or they're, it's one of the possibilities that we should be testing for. And we can, we just blindfold everybody.
[00:31:30] Josh Hutchinson: Or even if they truly believed that the person was bewitching them, they would behave differently around the person. They buy into this stuff, they first, they see that person, they fall into one of their fits, then they touch the person believing that's going to cure them, and the fit suddenly stops.
[00:31:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: We have tried with the film to be as accurate as we know and as we can be. We all felt, I think, a real sense of obligation to do that. We want it to be true to her story. It's sensational enough on its own. We didn't need to hype it up even more than her story already is. To me, it may be the most compelling of that era, her story, because of so much, but I'm also biased.
[00:32:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: We've talked about how in Andover, it was like a much bigger problem. It was, it's really where it got it blew up more. I said something that maybe for the listeners, it'd be nice to clarify. I said maybe it was because of Ann. So Ann Foster apparently is the first one to have ever said that there were 300 some odd. 307, oddly specific, but maybe she knew that would, made the story sound more authentic. She said there were some 307 witches in our county and nobody had ever put a big number on it like that. And so maybe when she said that, everybody was like, and so then the authorities are like, 'okay buckle on your swords, boys. We got to go pick up some more people,' or something like that.
[00:33:06] Josh Hutchinson: That's also something that makes her confession really interesting, and it is a big turning point, again, in the witch hunt, because, early on, Tituba says there's nine witches, so they're looking for nine people, but then the number just keeps growing, and then it leaps with Ann Foster to this 300 some people, and yeah, they really were looking under every stone, trying to find a witch in Andover.
[00:33:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: Was she the first one, I can't remember, was she the first one in her confession that talked about flying on a stick, or had someone done that before her?
[00:33:49] Josh Hutchinson: Tituba had talked about it.
[00:33:54] Lori Prescott Hansen: and even that she had cheese in her pocket, which I thought was not funny, but like that's really specific. And you do get the idea, too, the question is raised, she was old, she was feeble, she was frail. Did she start to believe these things? Was her mind beginning to wander? Was she confessing to save herself and members of her family, to take it on herself? We don't know all those things, but they're all really compelling questions.
[00:34:27] Josh Hutchinson: And we do know that people, as you mentioned earlier, were thinking, 'could I be a witch and not know it?' Was a theme that was going through the Andover Confessions,
[00:34:41] Lori Prescott Hansen: Right.
[00:34:42] Josh Hutchinson: People questioning themselves, could I have committed some sin that turned me over to the devil?
And could I unwittingly be causing these people harm?
Yeah, people were truly confused about it.
[00:34:59] Lori Prescott Hansen: It's interesting too, to me, that Ann called out Martha Carrier. She wasn't guiltless in accusing others. In her mind, Martha Carrier is already in prison, so I'm not doing any additional harm. You could spend years delving into all of this and never get to complete answers.
[00:35:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: I feel like one of the things when we're trying to figure out how it all happened is this idea of like they had competing virtues. Like one of the virtues was you had to have faith and believe. And another virtue was you had to have integrity and be honest. And those were competing virtues in the sense that say with John Proctor, who thought that all the witch stuff was a bunch of hubbub. And Lori said he tried to beat it out of his servant. He's, ' I'll show you, say that you've sensed witches, whack whack, do you still sense witches? Nope!' For that, for Proctor to do that, it's like he's saying, 'okay, so witches, that's a bunch of nonsense,' but witches are in the Bible and witches are something that we all believe is part of, it's tied to the religion.
And so is John Proctor like showing a lack of faith and a lack of belief? That means John Proctor is not virtuous. But on the other hand, John Proctor went to his execution and wouldn't say that he was a witch. He would, he never I don't want to say admitted because that suggests that he actually was. He never copped to it, right?
And so in that sense, he had the other virtue of the integrity. So these people who were trying to say, 'maybe I am a witch. Can I be a witch and not know it?' That's their attempt to make those two competing virtues work together. I'm still going to believe, but I don't want to lie. It's a form of like cognitive dissonance for them, but like that's an interesting and I guess kind of awful way that they had to try to do the mental gymnastics to make it so they could keep all their virtues.
[00:36:52] Josh Hutchinson: That's a really good analysis. And there was so much going on in Andover contributing to the confessions. Really most of the people in Andover did ultimately confess, and they were being pressured by their own families to do so, because there was a rumor going around that if you confessed, you'd be spared.
[00:37:17] Lori Prescott Hansen: be forgiven. You were capable of being forgiven or of repenting.
[00:37:22] Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, they did end up convicting a number of people who confessed, but fortunately for them it was late enough in the game that they were never actually executed. But that rumor was going around. And then there was the whole, 'could I be one and not know it? Everybody's telling me I am a witch. If the magistrate is telling you you're a witch, and he's a reliable guy and trusted and looked up to, and maybe you start believing him instead of yourself.
[00:37:58] Lori Prescott Hansen: And if you look at that in terms of Ann, she had so much tragedy in her life that maybe this has happened because I am this and she's old and she's feeble and she's worn down and she's seen so much in her family that's just remarkable. I'm sure she was just, in some ways, just done.
[00:38:21] Matthew C. S. Julander: I do wonder how she came up with all the details that she came up with. Like the bird that came black and left white, or the dog, the stick, the cheese in the pockets. There were so many like interesting little tidbits. It's is it because she was in that kind of feeble place and her mind was just making things up now and she was in fever dream mode? Or was she like knowingly trying to protect her family and she's, this is the best way to do it. I've seen enough lying. I if she had, but I'm going to do details with the lies so they seem more.
[00:38:52] Lori Prescott Hansen: And the details of life that are given extra magical or whatever stories to explain them. Ann had a bad leg or a bad hip. She says it's because she fell off the stick. So anyway, just so many things that make it. It's interesting and sad and educational that, if we can learn the lessons that we ought to learn, we'd be better off for our own futures.
[00:39:23] Matthew C. S. Julander: Somebody was talking about how dense those forests are and imagine them without electric lighting, like how there'd be so little that you could see and how everything would be so close. There was the dangers of getting diseases. There was plenty to be afraid of that you couldn't see and wouldn't know was coming, right? And that seems like that also made it rife for people to work up in stories of things and to believe in things that maybe weren't there. It's a really strange place.
[00:39:53] Lori Prescott Hansen: New England is, it's to me a magical place. It's beautiful. It's picturesque. The houses are amazing. I love the styles and all that. I love the toll roads, but it's interesting that such a tragic thing could take place in such a beautiful place. And that's, that happens everywhere, it can happen anywhere. And it was the frontier, particularly Andover. It was the frontier.
[00:40:22] Josh Hutchinson: I've camped in the forest near Andover. There's a Harold Parker State Forest right there. And I spent about 10 days, I believe, in the woods right there. And even today, the woods are so thick that if you're out on one of those hiking trails, it doesn't take long to not have roads and sounds from roads and so just imagining back then, and coming from England where it's a little more crowded and there'd be some more lights to this very wilderness. It's so hauntingly frightening. You actually have wolves and bears and things that they don't have in England anymore. Yeah, it's just a spooky environment, but so beautiful.
[00:41:16] Lori Prescott Hansen: beautiful.
[00:41:18] Sarah Jack: At this stage with your project, what is it that you need from listeners, from supporters?
[00:41:25] Lori Prescott Hansen: We need viewers. Yeah. And exposure. Exposure. That's why we appreciate this podcast so much because it's huge. It's a huge benefit to us. So we need energy.
[00:41:39] Matthew C. S. Julander: We are going to try to put it into festivals, and as we do, we'll post about it on our Facebook page and on our website so that anybody who's interested in seeing the film can go see it. So one thing would be great for us is if you go search for I Be a Witch on Facebook and follow us there. Or you can go to ibeawitch. com, bookmark that, and go back to it. You can also go to ibeawitch. com and find your way to the Facebook group from there.
And that way, anybody who's interested in the film can keep track of, like, where it ends up, so where they can see it. And that, then, as we start, rolling it out and showing it in different places, the exposure would be great. If you, if... If you want to help us with the film, you can, "Hey, they just said they're going to be in this film festival in North Carolina. Everybody who wants to go see it in North Carolina." And that, that, that'd be helpful for us. Eventually, we hope to get it onto a streaming platform. And when we do that, of course, we'll tell everybody where that is. And then it's just a matter of, yeah, tell your friends, go watch the movie.
[00:42:38] Sarah Jack: And right now they can watch the preview,
[00:42:40] Lori Prescott Hansen: They can. You can watch the trailer.
[00:42:42] Matthew C. S. Julander: The trailer's on ibeawitch. com.
[00:42:44] Lori Prescott Hansen: The trailer, I have to say. I'm tickled with it.
[00:42:48] Josh Hutchinson: We'll have a link to that in the show description to both the Facebook and the website. And as you start to have showings, we'll definitely share that on our social media to help get the word out. It's something that our listeners are going to be interested in. We'll definitely be helping promote that as we can.
[00:43:12] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[00:43:14] Mary Louise Bingham: Alice Markham Cantor, a freelance writer and a fact checker for the New York Magazine. She is creating a database regarding worldwide witch hunts. Alice uses her writing skills by weaving the common threads of witch hunts from the 1300s to the current day. Alice introduced me to the story of Iquo Edet Iyo, a prosperous woman looked on with suspicion for years who was accused of using black magic to cause a motorcycle accident at Cross River State, Nigeria. As a result, Iquo was brutally murdered in October of 2022. Alice reminded me that there are over 1,000 innocent people killed due to ongoing deadly witch hunts every year. I encourage the listeners to read Alice's story titled, "Social Turmoil Has Increased Witch Hunts Historically" on Portside.Org. Check out her profile on theinternationalnetwork.org. Thank you, Alice Markham Cantor, you are one powerful advocate.
[00:44:17] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:44:22] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[00:44:25] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide. At End Witch Hunts, our commitment is unwavering to actively engage in educating and advocating for the cessation of witch hunting practice. We can do this through the power of collective action. Thank you for already supporting our projects by listening to and sharing our podcast episodes. If you'd like to further contribute, please consider a financial contribution. Your financial support empowers us to continue our education and advocacy efforts. As the holiday season approaches, we invite you to keep End Witch Hunts in mind when considering your charitable gifts. We have donate buttons on our websites.
Our latest historical justice initiative, the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, is dedicated to securing formal exoneration for those wrongfully convicted as witches in Boston. We are also seeking a formal apology for all documented victims of the Massachusetts Colony Witch Trials. Each of these individuals has a story of innocence, Injustice and life altering consequences due to false accusations. You can make a difference immediately by signing and sharing the petition. Do so now at change.org/witchtrials.
If you live in Massachusetts, you can share this project with your legislative representatives and ask them to propose the amendment. If you are a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, we need you to lead or collaborate on this amendment effort now. Please consider reaching out to the project so that we can support you as you propose or support such an amendment. Please take action, and let's work together to help close a chapter of American history that calls out to us all for answers.
Commemorating Goody Glover Day, November 16th.
On this day of witch trial memorialization in Boston, we want to highlight the significance of November 16th, proclaimed as Goody Glover Day by the Boston City Council in 1988.
Goody Glover, an Irish Catholic widow, was falsely accused, convicted, and hanged for witchcraft on this date in 1688. We invite you to commemorate Goody Glover Day by visiting her memorial plaque at the parish of Our Lady of Victories. The memorial plaque recounts the tragic tale of Ann Glover, emphasizing her unwavering commitment to the Catholic faith.
You may not be able to visit the memorial plaque, but you are able to pay tribute through various means, including social media discussions, coffee shop conversations, educational programs, and moments of reflection. Your support is instrumental in driving positive change and bringing an end to the dark history of witch hunting practices.
For more information and to contribute, visit endwitchhunts. org.
[00:46:58] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:47:01] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:47:02] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:47:07] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:47:09] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:47:13] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:47:16] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[00:47:19] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:47:24] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome back cultural historian Maya Rook. October is a great opportunity to discuss the portrayals of witches in pop culture, witchcraft and magic. Enjoy this fun and reflective episode as we consider the witch in pop culture over time, how she is rooted in Greek Mythology, and her stereotypes and tropes. How are her powers centered within the domestic sphere? Where did we get our image of the good witch? Of the bad witch? What does the future hold for the pop culture witch? Why are men wizards and women witches?
[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:16] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we're excited to share a conversation we had with historian and friend of the show, Maya Rook, about portrayals of the witch in popular culture.
[00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: We had a great time talking with Maya about how the witch has been depicted over the generations.
[00:00:32] Sarah Jack: From classical Greeks to modern Americans, people have both loved and reviled witch characters.
[00:00:38] Josh Hutchinson: Witches can be good or bad, or increasingly a little of both.
[00:00:43] Sarah Jack: What lessons can be learned from Sabrina the Teenage Witch and her fellow pop culture witches?
[00:00:49] Josh Hutchinson: And what does the future hold for popular representations of the witch?
[00:00:54] Sarah Jack: Welcome back, Maya Rook, cultural historian, educator, and host of Illusory Time and Salem Oracle. Maya is vibrant, creative, playful, humorous, delightful, informative, and you will appreciate the perspectives she brings to this topic today.
Let's start talking a little bit about our favorite pop culture witches. Maya, do you have a favorite pop culture witch?
[00:01:16] Maya Rook: I do have a favorite, and it is Sabrina the Teenage Witch, specifically the show with Melissa Joan Hart that started airing in 1996. So she always just comes up for me. I love so many pop culture witches, but I was at like the prime age when that was released, and I just was fascinated by the show. I loved it. I watched it until I grew out of it. But I've returned to it as an adult, and I think that it really keeps up, holds up, and I really love that one.
[00:01:45] Josh Hutchinson: I like that one a lot, too. Yeah, Sabrina and I like Hermione. It's a pop culture witch. There's some others we're thinking about, like Mary Poppins isn't always considered a witch, but she's very magical. And Bedknobs and Broomsticks, that witch is really good. Those are a few that I like.
[00:02:09] Sarah Jack: I love Morgana from the TV series Merlin. I love her transformation over the series. Unfortunately, it's from good to bad, but I don't know if that is unfortunate. It's a real, real important thread through the story, but I have enjoyed that character.
[00:02:27] Josh Hutchinson: Who else do you think of when you think pop culture witch? Who are the most iconic?
[00:02:34] Maya Rook: That is such a challenging question, because there are so many pop culture witches, and I think, and depending on who you ask, they're going to have that one person or group of people come into their minds, but I think of even just like the Weird Sisters from Macbeth. You have the three witches around the bubbling cauldron that is such an iconic image that continues to impact us to this day, and then we see different iterations even from that. We have the Sanderson sisters and Hocus Pocus, which I think a lot of people would say, iconic witches right there in pop culture.
We also have The Wizard of Oz, and I think that within that, the creation of Glinda the Good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West are both incredibly iconic. Samantha Stevens in Bewitched, for so many people that's their witch that they think of. Of course for me, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and then you have other teen witches as well, so thinking about The Craft, we get into kind of a little more dark witchcraft there. We have the sisters that show up in Practical Magic, and there's Charmed, the television show. You already mentioned Hermione from Harry Potter, right? The Witches of Eastwick is another big one.
I don't know, I feel like I could just name witches forever, but those were the top, I think, ten that showed up for me when I thought iconic pop culture witch.
[00:03:55] Josh Hutchinson: We talk about Hermione being an iconic witch. Why don't we talk about Harry Potter as being an iconic witch? Is it because the label is wizard for him?
[00:04:08] Maya Rook: Yeah, I think so, right? Because he's a he, because he's a male and is referred to as a wizard so much, I think that he doesn't really pop up into people's minds when we think iconic witch. Although we have witches in pop culture or, in the past, where men would be considered witches, for the most part it's associated with women. So I think that's really where our minds are still going to go to this day is we're going to look for the female character that's associated with magic. And in that case, we have Hermione, who is amazing.
[00:04:40] Josh Hutchinson: So there's still like a strong demarcation between here's a wizard and here's a witch and they're not the same thing.
[00:04:49] Maya Rook: Yeah, I think so. I was thinking about that, and we have different representations of wizards, but a lot of the times when I think when we hear the word wizard, what comes to mind often is like an older, white, male wizard with a long beard and the like pointy hat, maybe it has stars on it. A lot of times they're associated more with good magic, and I think when we have witches, we tend to imagine women. And now we have a lot more representations of good witches and bad witches, but I think the sort of stereotype that's left over really from the European witch trials and the witch hunting texts is that it's more negative. They're associated with harmful magic, darker magic. And I think that we're still impacted by that to this day.
[00:05:39] Sarah Jack: Do you think the portrayal of witches in pop culture instill fear, or do you think it takes away fear?
[00:05:49] Maya Rook: Both. And I think it really depends on what era we're looking at. So if we trace the trajectory of pop culture witches, we see this shift happening. I mentioned the European witch trials, the witch hunting texts, the images of witches that are created during that time. We're talking hundreds of years where this is really taking ahold of people's imaginations. And it's, it is very negative. And that, at that point in time is very much going to instill fear. And as the two of you and many of your listeners know very well, it instills fear to the point of persecution and execution, right? So the popular image of the witch ends up having this huge impact on people's everyday lives, on society as a whole, that is very fearful and negative.
You go through time, obviously, to get away from the witch trials within Europe and America. We have fairy tales and folk tales of witches, also often very negative. Hansel and Gretel, don't wander off into the woods, because the witch might get you and try to lure you in with their magic and eat you and all that good stuff.
But I really think that this shift happens that splits with The Wizard of Oz. When we get that good witch, Glinda the Good Witch, which, she's not instilling fear for most people, I would hope, right? She is this benevolent witch who's there to help Dorothy. And then you have the Wicked Witch of the West, who is really, in a lot of ways, left over from those negative stereotypes, and that's the one that you fear. So depending on sort of which of those two witches you trace, you can either get that fear, or you can get something that actually could help release fear.
As we get into the 20th century, we have people like Samantha Stevens from Bewitched, we have good teen witches like Sabrina, other fun kind of pop culture witches, as well, and all of those might be seen actually as a form of empowerment or play or this ability to have a good time with magic and be able to manipulate and control your world from a place of goodness rather than from a place that's pulling from a darker magic.
[00:07:58] Josh Hutchinson: How do you think the portrayal of witches in pop culture affects our understanding of practicing witches?
[00:08:06] Maya Rook: Yes, I think that there's a couple layers there, because the portrayal of witches in pop culture can be for a lot of people your entryway, what sparks your interest. And especially, I think the younger you are, because. And I think that's, you see this, you're fascinated by it. It's oh, this witch can wiggle their finger and then make everything change around them, or they can manipulate their environment. They can have a little more control over their relationships, even their own well being. So it's very enticing. So I think that it could actually draw people to want to explore what is witchcraft and what is magic and what is my own magic. But then I think that the other aspect of it is because that portrayal, it almost is so fantastical and it's external. You see when Sabrina the Teenage Witch, she waves her finger and then sparks will fly out of it and something will happen. But that's not going to happen in our real day to day lives. Real witchcraft, real magic, in a lot of ways, is very ordinary, and it doesn't have such a big, flashy show, and it can take a lot of work to tap into and trust in yourself.
So I think that it doesn't always show us the reality that if you want to practice magic, there's going to have to be a lot of inner exploration, and that some things might just actually be ordinary and boring, but you are tapping into your own power.
[00:09:32] Sarah Jack: I was thinking how some of the challenges or a lot of the challenges that they show Sabrina facing are actual challenges that other girls, boys are facing at that age. And so as you referred to looking into yourself and for your solutions. Hopefully, that those kind of examples can push people to see that in the ordinary there is solutions, that you do have power and strength from your own gifts, as well as your witchcraft interests.
[00:10:06] Maya Rook: Sabrina makes so many mistakes as she's navigating, learning her magic, and I think that's really great, because any teenager, any person coming of age, any human being is gonna make mistakes, they're gonna screw up, but they're able to do it in a way that's very comical. It's set up in that format for a sitcom. Or there's always a lesson that's learned from it, and I think you get this glimpse also that it doesn't actually matter how much magical powers you might have, that there's still going to be opportunities to learn, to grow, and that sometimes the magic is not what's going to be what will save you. It has to be your ability to like talk and communicate with people or share what's going on or ask for help or whatever it is. So all of that is intertwined into those episodes as she's navigating her world.
[00:10:56] Josh Hutchinson: What are some other lessons that we can learn from Sabrina and other witches?
[00:11:03] Maya Rook: I think that one of the biggest lessons we can pull from observing witches and the portrayal of witchcraft in pop culture is that there's more than meets the eye in our day to day lives. I think that it's a reminder that there is something that's like powerful and magical that can be beneath the surface, that you can have that idea of peeling back of the veil and there's another layer, there's another experience to the world around us or to people's abilities.
So a lot of times in pop culture, we have the witches who are very clearly witches, and they have the pointy black hat and they're supposed to look like haggard and just very obvious. They're around the cauldron. They're witches.
But then we have the witches that look really ordinary. They look like everyday people. And I think that a lesson there is this reminder that when we encounter people, we meet somebody, we don't actually know what's beneath it. We don't know who they are. And there could be, and a lot of times there is, this like immense insight, wisdom, power that's beneath them. And it could be something that they're hiding from the world. Because a lot of times these witches that we've mentioned, they're out and about in their day to day life, and they're not revealing to anybody the powers that they have. So yeah, I think that's what stands out to me the most as a larger lesson of like, there's more than meets the eye.
[00:12:24] Sarah Jack: The powers that we find in pop culture, where do they come from or where do they get their power?
[00:12:31] Maya Rook: Yeah, so I think that the power of flight is one that we definitely see, again, rooted back in the witch hunting texts that are coming out during the European witch trials. So we're talking about things that are starting really in the 1400s, and we start to hear messages about that witches can fly in the night. We see images coming out of like woodcuts and paintings, where we see witches on broomsticks, or they're flying through the air in some way. So I think that when we see that today or throughout the 20th and 21st century, the image of the witch on the broom flying through the air, all of it can really be, I believe, rooted back to that moment in time.
And I don't know. I think that it's probably a very enticing power to think about. If you could have the power to do anything, the idea that you could levitate and that you could fly in the air and that you could have that kind of control over something that other people can't and have that ability to fly around. I feel like a lot of people would take advantage of that if they could.
[00:13:39] Josh Hutchinson: I'd definitely be up there all the time, no hiding it, just look what I can do.
[00:13:45] Maya Rook: Yeah, I have the ability to lucid dream, and oftentimes, when I do tap into a lucid dream, one of the first things I start doing is flying, because why wouldn't I? Like, What else am I going to do? Okay, well, it is it's really fun. Something I will say that I love about, again, because I know we're going to keep coming to bring this back to Sabrina the Teenage Witch, vacuum cleaners. So they update it in the show when she's introduced to flying, she assumes it's going to be on brooms, but they actually use vacuum cleaners, and it's this really just quirky, fun, modern touch of why would we use an old-fashioned broom when we could use the modern vacuum cleaner to fly around in the air? And just one of those like silly moments that they put into the show.
[00:14:28] Josh Hutchinson: It evoked also Hocus Pocus 2, where they use a Swiffer and some Roombas.
[00:14:36] Maya Rook: Yes, I forgot about that.
[00:14:38] Josh Hutchinson: So yet another upgrade to keep up with the technology. But it's still rooted in that domestic sphere, which women were limited to during the witch hunting era in Europe and North America.
[00:14:59] Maya Rook: I think that's a great point, and I think that we do see a lot of that sort of domestication of the witch happening, as well, and some of the, if we're you know, want to still look at some of their powers, this connection there but following Glinda the Good Witch, I see that as this good witch lineage in the 20th century. And then all the witches that tend to be good witches are usually somehow associated somewhere in the household. So we have Samantha and Bewitched, and she's navigating okay, suburban housewife, and being a witch, what's the line between that? And then we have Sabrina, again, living in the suburbs, like a lot of her life takes place in the house with her aunts. They're in this domestic sphere, the vacuums, as we mentioned before, the flying on brooms.
I think that we also see, again, tracing back to the European witch trials, some of the things associated with witches take place in that world. I'm thinking of the Malleus Maleficarum, and this one story that's told in there about, there's some fear around midwives, and they're talking about how if a witch who is a midwife helps a woman give birth, they might pretend like the baby is dead so that they can take it away, or they might bring it, describing bringing it into the kitchen, holding it up by the fire, and offering it up to the devil.
And that is all the domestic sphere, that's all the women's world, what they're associated with. And it's being almost inverted in some way. Instead of the power of being by the hearth and the fire as this place to create life, it's then being associated with this darkness, right? So they are inverting their relationship with domesticity. And also some of the crimes they were associated with, infertility, miscarriages, the killing and the eating of babies, as well as even things like crops failing, livestock falling ill, all of that kind of has to do with instead of creating life and helping it to flourish, making it diminish.
So those are some of the more negative aspects associated with it. But I feel like that idea of rooting things in the domestic world we see continued throughout that whole trace of pop culture witches.
[00:17:11] Josh Hutchinson: And I was thinking the the Malleus was basically the pop culture of its day, so that's another pop culture portrayal of witches. Unfortunately, it's a very devastating one with real consequences.
[00:17:29] Maya Rook: I'll say one more thing about the powers of witches that we see, because the ones that I've mentioned so far, really, I think we see strongly in the European witch trials, but in the Western world, we can go back even further, and I do see some aspects of magic and witchcraft rooted in Greek mythology that we still see today.
So Hecate comes to mind, and Hecate was the goddess of nocturnal sorcery and crossroads and threshold boundaries, those kind of areas in between. And she was able to go between the mortal and the divine spheres. So she could go between the underworld and the earth. And even It's kind of funny that I see Sabrina going between those two worlds as well, right? Because she's half witch and she's half mortal, so she's straddling that line. And then Hecate was also associated with certain herbs, which of course we see to this day, the idea of like witches and witchcraft being able to have an herbal magic and be able to make potions and things like that. And then Hecate's daughter, Circe, had the ability to transform humans into animals. So most famously, probably in The Odyssey she transforms the men into swine. And you usually have a magic wand or a staff that was associated with that power. And so I think we still see echoes of that that come through the witch trials all the way up to the present day.
[00:18:51] Sarah Jack: The shape changing's one of my favorite portrayals of witchcraft. It's, sometimes it's very light hearted and fun, sometimes it's very deceitful and there's trickery. But yeah, I really enjoy the shape shifting. I don't shape shift. Yet.
[00:19:11] Josh Hutchinson: Working on it, though
[00:19:12] Maya Rook: Keep trying!
[00:19:13] Josh Hutchinson: Practice makes perfect.
[00:19:16] Sarah Jack: Alrighty.
[00:19:16] Josh Hutchinson: I'm glad you brought up the Greeks because when we think pop culture witch, of course we often think in today's terms of who's a 20th, 21st century witch, but witches have been in pop culture ever since there was basically writing, stories being told.
[00:19:40] Maya Rook: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's important to remember that humans all over the world have long believed in magic, right? It doesn't matter what culture you're in, what society, there's usually some notion that There's a magic in the world, there's an ability to manipulate the world around you, and that certain people hold that power and that ability. So the name for what that is can change over time and, depending on the culture, but there's usually somebody that you can make a parallel as being a witch.
[00:20:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We had Owen Davies on recently talking about The Art of the Grimoire, and there's grimoires back from 3000 BC, 4000 BCE. So witches have been in literature for thousands and thousands of years, and it's really interesting to watch this metamorphosis over time. You talked about how Hecate and Circe and then up to the Malleus, where the witch in European culture is this very malevolent figure, to now We have good witches and bad witches, but where do you think the witch is going in the future in pop culture?
[00:21:00] Maya Rook: That's really fascinating to think about. I don't think that we will tire of witches in pop culture, especially considering, as you just said, 3,000 years, 3000 BCE, I think you said, we have evidence of witches in pop culture, right? So they're not going to go anywhere. I think that we'll continue to navigate that and keep the witch, the person who has that ability to manipulate the world around them through that power. It'll continue.
How will it change? I think that more and more people are publicly Considering themselves witches and sharing what their connection is with magic and witchcraft in more public spheres. There's people talk about witchtok, witches on TikTok who share what they're doing, and, of course, across all social media, you have similar things happening. I think that's going to end up influencing the future of witches and pop culture. In some ways, it might become a little bit more normal, so we might start seeing films that are just otherwise just regular, a comedy or a drama, the story has nothing to do with witchcraft, but maybe there'll be a character in it who's just oh they're a witch. It's just normal. It's part of who is in our society, who's in our culture. And it might start being portrayed maybe even in a more positive light, maybe like a little more fun, a little more playful, perhaps more stuff for children but yeah, it's hard to tell.
People will never tire, though, of the evil witch. I am such a big fan of horror films, and I feel like, there's no way that you could have a lot of horror films out there. They need that dark character.
[00:22:44] Josh Hutchinson: For sure. But I liked what you said about normalizing portrayals of witchcraft and modern which practices just to see, they're just your neighbor. They're whoever regular people in your family and like practicing any other faith.
[00:23:04] Maya Rook: With the witchtok and the Instagram witches and stuff, I think it's fascinating to watch, and at the same time, it makes me also a little bit nervous of a watering down that could happen, or just doing it for the show of it, and I think that any spiritual practice in a lot of ways is more, a lot of the meaning is coming from your personal connection to it. That doesn't mean it's going to be lost if you share it with other people in a public setting, but I think people have to be careful about that too, because, if you're just doing something because you're like I have to create content and I've created this following and I'm going to do it, then what's your motivation behind are you is your intention really there to do this spell, to do whatever it is, or are you just trying to get likes and followers?
Maybe that's not what you think you're doing, but that's how it ends up unraveling for yourself. And so I think it's probably important for people to remember, if they go into that world, to check themselves and make sure they're really coming from a place of this is my spirituality, this is my practice and really considering what it is that they're showing the world.
[00:24:09] Josh Hutchinson: Instead of just making it flashy, putting in all the trappings of excitement, what is the actual practice that means something to you as a person, as a creator? That's a good point, too.
[00:24:27] Sarah Jack: I was really curious who your favorite horror film witch character is.
[00:24:32] Maya Rook: I really love The Witch that came out in, what was that, 2015 or so? I just find that a fascinating film. I was so excited when it came out. I had done so much research on the Puritans of the Mass Bay Colony, obviously the Salem Witch Trials, and I went to that movie and I felt like I was being really brought into 17th century New England.
I felt like I was really there with that family, even the way that they spoke to each other. It was the way that it looked, the dynamic, all of it just felt so real and captivating to me and then to watch the main character and her storyline unfold, and this potential, this fear around magic, this fear around the devil, and her sort of luring that comes into it, and then by the end, spoiler alert, for anybody who hasn't seen The Witch, pause this, go watch it, come back.
But to see her kind of give in to that power in the end is this really beautiful, incredible moment. And I just absolutely loved it. I've watched that movie several times now and I feel like it just doesn't get old to, to watch that unraveling.
[00:25:45] Sarah Jack: It's so crazy that you just said unravel because I was literally going to say the film is showing like the unraveling of the mother, of the faith, they were just really striving. They were there, spoiler alert, in the woods because of their strong, stubborn beliefs and they wanted to have things the way they wanted it. But then that's unraveling for them and then she's like blooming into this character. It's so intense.
[00:26:20] Josh Hutchinson: Thomasin is another person who doesn't feature a lot in conversations when I was looking around the internet, who are the top pop culture witches. She doesn't feature there, but that's cited as a top witch movie. So it's interesting that she's not thought of in that light.
[00:26:43] Maya Rook: Yeah, she in some ways doesn't have, you have to really get to the end of her story to see her as a witch when she's levitating in the air at the end. And I think that it doesn't have that same flashiness as when we think of like the Sanderson sisters from Hocus Pocus, right? But it's still really powerful and it's interesting. Yeah, she doesn't usually, Thomas and we're like, oh yeah, Thomasin the witch. It's like we think of her as a character and we think of the movie, which is called The Witch, but at the same time, it's like yeah, she doesn't stand out. But I think it's absolutely one of the best portrayals of witches and witchcraft that we have in popular culture and specifically, as you asked about in horror films, I think it's pretty high up there.
[00:27:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, another thing Sarah and I were talking about the other day. In The Witch, there is the older woman in the woods that's tempting her so that person is more or less the villain of the feature, other than uh, Black Phillip, depending on your opinion about him. But is it always an older figure targeting a younger figure when it comes to the villains?
[00:27:57] Maya Rook: That's a great question. My instinct is, yeah, it seems like it usually is somebody who's older. I think, I also feel like in cases where it seems like it's somebody who's younger, that it always ends up that they are actually older, the skin comes off and it's revealed they are actually much older, and they're just manipulating the way they look, so yeah, I think you might be onto something there, that it's typically an older witch villain, whatever, that is bringing and luring in the younger into their world.
[00:28:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're thinking even, you go back to the fairy tales, Hansel and Gretel, Snow White, it's an older person stealing youth, either they want to eat the youth or they went to somehow capture it for themselves. And that seems to carry forward, Harry Potter's a school student and Voldemort. Oops, I said his name. He's obviously the older adult preying on children. So it seems like that Hansel and Gretel kind of role is still going on.
[00:29:10] Maya Rook: Yeah, absolutely, I'd agree. I'll have to think on it, though, and see if I can come up with any examples, like, where there's a younger witch luring an older person. It might be out there, but it could take some time to find it.
[00:29:23] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Another thing we were curious about, and don't know if there's been research done into this, but how many of a witch's victims are female versus how many are male? We see a lot of older women going after younger women or girls.
[00:29:42] Maya Rook: Yeah. When you ask that question, what it first makes me think of is that we see, I believe, a lot of times, with the older witch, it's and they're approaching a younger girl might be to actually lure them also into witchcraft, but when they're approaching men, a younger man, it's usually, there might be something sexual there. The older witch might be getting something out of it, pleasure for themselves, but then they discard the man or harm him in some way. So it seems almost a using and a violence against men and then like a bringing in, a manipulation and a bringing in of women into the world of witches and witchcraft.
[00:30:23] Sarah Jack: That initiation.
[00:30:25] Maya Rook: Initiation. Yeah,
[00:30:26] Sarah Jack: Do you think there are any witches in pop culture that challenge traditional stereotypes?
[00:30:31] Maya Rook: So when I do a lot of my work on pop culture witches, and I do usually culminate it with Sabrina the Teenage Witch I always see that household as really challenging some gender stereotypes and the way that a household is created, because there's really no men in that house, right? We have the two aunts, so we have this kind of alternative lifestyle. Neither of them are married. For a lot of the show, they're not even really in relationships, so they will be, but they're not like center stage. So we have the two sisters who are leading the household, and then they're raising their niece, right? Not even their child. So that's not a typical, standard house. And then the one male that you have in the household is a warlock who's, he has to live in the body of a cat for a hundred years because he tried to take over the world. So the man who's in the house has pretty much no power, always trying to get it, but he's dependent on everybody around him. So I think it really flips a lot of the what we think about in terms of gender and power in a typical domestic environment.
I'm also thinking about which witches buck the stereotype of a witch, and at this point we just have so many different images of witches, I'm like I feel like our pop culture just holds a lot of different representations that it would be challenging now to think of one in this moment of time that would somehow be going against what's already been created. It's possible out there, but I think we'd have to almost go back and think about, okay, what was the stereotype in this moment of time, what shifted it? And to me, that always comes back to Glinda the Good Witch as being that pivotal moment where the change happens.
[00:32:15] Sarah Jack: Is there a tie with Glinda's image and portrayal and fairies, fairy godmothers?
[00:32:23] Maya Rook: I do think so, especially in the way that she is presented in the film. I think it really pulls on that image of the fairy godmother being more benevolent, caring, showing up in that moment to be of service and to help whoever the protagonist is, in this case, Dorothy. But it's really interesting, L. Frank Baum, when he wrote The Wizard of Oz, his mother-in-law was Matilda Joslyn Gage. And she was an early suffragist and feminist before people were even really talking about those things. And she was also an early researcher of the witch trials and one of the first people to say this was an attack on women.
And so we're talking about somebody writing and researching and talking about this in the 1800s, late 1800s. She was also involved in spiritualism, so engaged in things like seances, and she was part of the Theosophical Society, so she was in touch with the world of magic, and she was very close with L. Frank Baum, so mother-in-law to L. Frank Baum, and it seems as though she had a pretty big influence on him. They talked about a lot of stuff, and a lot of people believe that she influenced his perception on witches and witchcraft, and that when he wrote The Wizard of Oz, because of that connection with Matilda Joslyn Gage, that he created this character that went against the stereotypes that were left over from the witch trials, and he had both of them included.
So I think that she's this kind of more unknown person, but I think has incredibly impacted our understanding of witches today and especially from that portrayal of Glinda the Good Witch.
[00:34:05] Josh Hutchinson: I'm so glad you brought that up.
[00:34:07] Sarah Jack: Me too. I'm wondering, and I'm thinking, of course, from the film perspective, what's the significance to the wizard just being an ordinary man?
[00:34:19] Maya Rook: Yeah, the wizard. And again, we talked about wizards before, right? They're like older, male, they're usually have, good magic and whatnot. And in this, yeah, he has no real, all his power is a facade and eventually has to admit that he's just manipulating people and almost doing little tricks to get people to believe that he's powerful, and people do, they do believe it, but it falls apart eventually, right? The man behind the curtain. And of course, in the story, that is this really important moment because it, for the characters, shines this light on they always had those qualities within them and so that power laid within. But yeah, it is interesting that you have this powerful male figure, but then turns out actually is just, just like an ordinary guy.
[00:35:14] Sarah Jack: So then I have another question. You've got, courage is found, the brain, the heart. Those weren't just people. They were made up characters. I wonder what, why he went that direction with those who found their, the lion finding his courage, so maybe, I don't know.
[00:35:34] Maya Rook: Yeah. I wonder... It could just be that it was like a kid's story, and he wanted to create a fantastical world in, they don't show this in the movie, but in the book, the Tin Man started off as a real person. So the Tin Man chopping wood cut off his foot and it gets replaced and it cuts off part of his leg as well, so eventually he becomes this Tin Man and I, it's a little bit fuzzy in my mind, but I think part of it is that he had been in love with a woman and by the time that it gets to the point of his heart being replaced, he can no longer have that love.
So coming back and that very much could be representative of the time. We have industrialization, we have people who are working more and more in factories, and a stripping down of people's humanity, and so a reminder that people aren't tin men, they're not robots, they're not just there to do work, but they actually have a heart within them that we have to remember that.
[00:36:29] Josh Hutchinson: What do you think are some common stereotypes of witches, some tropes that we see in pop culture?
[00:36:39] Maya Rook: One that we've been coming back to is definitely that witches are typically seen as women. Think of a witch, depict a witch, a lot of times it is a woman, it's a female character, and I really do think in that case we can look at some of the statistics from the witch trials and see that when the witch trials began, about half the people accused were men, half the people accused were women, and then over that course of 400 or so years, by the end, 80 percent of the people who are accused and executed are women. So that shift, it takes some time, but by the end of it, I think it's really solidified that this belief that women are the ones who are associated with the magic, with the witchcraft, and the potential to be witches. So that's one of the largest.
Other common tropes, I would say, spells and incantations oftentimes Creating potions, so that image of the cauldron will be associated, that's another common one. Potentially, you have the solitary witch, but a lot of times you do have the coven of witches as well. So usually, in that case, there'd be three witches who are doing their magic together, flying, especially broomsticks, trying to think of some other ones.
That, the eating of children, we get that in Hocus Pocus, we get that in the European Witch Trials, and we get that as well in Roald Dahl's The Witches, so that's one of the main motivations is is it that they want to eat the children or they want to just kill them? They want to rid the world of children, that's what it is, and so they try to use their magic as a way to essentially they want to turn the children into mice, I believe. It's been a while since I read or watched that one, but this anti-child trope, I think, for the evil witch comes up a lot.
Oh, and they have familiars. So that is another major trope for all witches, I think, good or bad is that they have a familiar. Originally, familiars were believed to be domesticated demons in the shape of an animal. So it could be a dog, it could be a cat, a snake, a frog, or something like that. And then a lot of times in the present day, familiars are seen, not so much as demons, but, as a companion that has a relationship with the witch and that maybe their sort of powers help one another. And that was a big shift in the Sabrina the Teenage Witch with Melissa Joan Hart, because Salem is there, so he's like the familiar in that case, the cat.
And then in the new version, The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, where things get a lot darker and more occult, more satanic, they bring back that idea of the domesticated demon. So she gets Salem. She gets a cat, but it is actually supposed to be a demon in the shape of a cat rather than, a friend, essentially.
[00:39:27] Sarah Jack: I haven't had a chance to watch that. I was curious, do they, how does the Book of Shadows represent different in that series? Does it?
[00:39:37] Maya Rook: I cannot... I can't remember. I did go back and watch the first couple episodes. It's been a while since I saw The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. So I'm not remembering. Really specifically what happens with the Book of Shadows. I will say one thing I know about the show is that, it's not the Book of Shadows, but they, it's like the devil's book that they have to sign.
In Sabrina the Teenage Witch, in the 90s television show, their power is definitely not coming from Satan, it's coming from like an unknown source, but that's clearly a fairly good or neutral source that it's coming from, but then in Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, for her to become a witch when she's 16, she does need to sign the devil's Book and give herself over to the dark lord. So they really hearken back to the image that was created during the Witch Trials, and I think that's a major difference between the two.
[00:40:36] Sarah Jack: Oh yeah, I'm surprised there's any room in that book after all the witch trials and signing that was going on.
[00:40:42] Maya Rook: Yeah, it's magical, right? So maybe just more pages just keep getting created.
[00:40:47] Josh Hutchinson: think so. And they used a lot of different writing surfaces in the witch trial accounts of that. So they must have just pieced it together in a big three-ring binder or something. He's got a scrapbook, the devil's scrapbook. Anyways.
[00:41:05] Sarah Jack: Is there anything else that you'd like to be sure to speak to you about this topic or Sabrina or any of it?
[00:41:14] Maya Rook: I feel like as we consume pop culture, just remembering, it's to have fun with it, and then have a little bit of a discriminating eye and see what might be laying beneath the surface and what it can tell us about who we are as individuals and our society as a whole.
And I'm very curious, since you asked that question about the future of witches and pop culture, how that's going to unfold, right? And what it's going to tell us about generations as they're growing and changing and as our society changes, as well. I think that our perception of witches will be an insight into it.
[00:41:51] Sarah Jack: And now, for a minute with Mary.
[00:41:54] Mary Bingham: We already know the Puritans look to counter magic for protection, the shoe in the wall, the horseshoe over the doorway. But what about a witch cake? And why bake this awful concoction and feed it to the dog? It seems evident that Tituba loved Betty Parris and Abigail Williams. She was so concerned for their well being, as she was probably horrified while witnessing seizure like symptoms the girls experienced. Not even a doctor could diagnose their illness, saying that the girls were "under an evil hand." Tituba decided to take matters into her own hands and called upon the help of the Parris family neighbor, Mary Sibley. They baked that cake, made out of some type of flour, most likely rye or barley meal, they mixed it with the girl's urine and ashes from the hearth, and they fed it to the dog.
I once believed that the dog had somehow identified who was bewitching the girls, but was this actually the reason for the two women to bake the cake? The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology by Russell Hope Robbins states that if the witch cake is fed to the dog and the dog shakes, the afflictions, be they fevers or shivering fits, would be cured.
So this makes me wonder, could Tituba have wanted to find out who was bewitching the girls? Did she think she was offering a cure for their symptoms? Or both? I will let the listener decide. Thank you.
[00:43:32] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:43:35] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[00:43:38] Sarah Jack: Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast and End Witch Hunts collaborate on the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project and will work earnestly for all names to be cleared and for all lawmakers and global leaders to become better educated about witch hunts past and present. Lawmakers of any party can support legislation that has a real and resounding local and global impact. Other countries need to see us take a deliberate stand for alleged witches in our history with expressed concern for stopping alleged witchcraft violence today. Official state acknowledgement of the innocency of the 17th century accused and hanged witches from the American colonies resounds globally.
Thank you, State of Connecticut, for officially apologizing to all your known witch trial victims. Thank you, Massachusetts, for beginning the work of exoneration by addressing the injustice against those convicted in the 1692 Salem Witch Trials. But, it's time to begin the work to acknowledge the injustice of those convicted in Boston between 1648 and 1688.
Massachusetts, it's time to stand with Connecticut and include all those who suffered in your colony in an official apology. It's time to acknowledge the absolute innocence of all those accused of witchcraft and the injustices committed against them.
[00:44:49] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much, Sarah.
[00:44:51] Sarah Jack: You're welcome, Josh.
[00:44:53] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:44:57] Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.
[00:45:00] Josh Hutchinson: Review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:45:04] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:45:07] Josh Hutchinson: Tell all your friends and family about the show.
[00:45:11] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more about volunteering and donating.
[00:45:19] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
This episode on Irish witch trial history takes a close look at the 1711 mass witch trial in Islandmagee through an illuminating conversation with Dr. Andrew Sneddon of Ulster University. We discuss what took place and learn about why there may have been fewer witch trials in Ireland than in other countries during the early modern period. We cover critical aspects of the witchcraft accusations, like Demonic obsession and possession, and address the similarities between Islandmagee and witchcraft accusations in Salem, and other New England witch trials. Dr Sneddon and his colleagues have launched a historic multimedia Islandmagee witch trial history commemoration project that opens September 9 in Northern Ireland. Find out what you can experience in person and what is available to experience online.
[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with Dr. Andrew Sneddon about witch hunts in Ireland.
[00:00:34] Sarah Jack: This episode is full of Irish witch trial information.
[00:00:40] Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn about the Islandmagee Witch Trials, Ireland's largest witch-hunt.
[00:00:48] Sarah Jack: There were eight women imprisoned and one man, a father and husband, likely executed.
[00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: The victims were Janet Carson, Janet Latimer, Janet Main, Janet Miller, Margaret Mitchell, Catherine McCalmond, Janet Liston, and Elizabeth Sellor. And the man who likely was executed was William Sellor.
[00:01:17] Sarah Jack: Dr. Sneddon and his colleagues have rolled out an exceptional exhibit with the Carrickfergus Museum that is hosting it September 9th through November 16th.
[00:01:33] Josh Hutchinson: This exhibit's got it all. It's got images, video, virtual reality, a video game, a graphic novel, an animation, and a play? It's got it all.
[00:01:52] Sarah Jack: A historic play from 1948, couple years before The Crucible.
[00:02:00] Josh Hutchinson: Before the Crucible, there was this play.
[00:02:03] Sarah Jack: Witches in Eden,
[00:02:05] Josh Hutchinson: Witches in Eden. Check it out.
[00:02:09] Sarah Jack: The Ulster University Research Project was led by Dr. Helen Jackson, Dr. Victoria McCollum, and Dr. Andrew Sneddon. There's also a range of objects from the Carrickfergus Museum's own collection, plus loaned items from the National Museums Northern Ireland and the National Library of Ireland and Belfast Central Library.
[00:02:30] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds exciting. Count me in.
[00:02:32] Sarah Jack: It's amazing what is available on the website to be able to look at and learn and enjoy. But, getting to go in person. It's a historic presentation of witch trial history, so what an incredible opportunity. If you can go, you need to go.
[00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: You do. And for those of you who can't, w 1 7 1 1 .org, w1711.org, is the place to go to check that out. They've got videos you can watch and images to look at and history to read up on, including all of the transcripts of the trial records from the Islandmagee Witch-Hunt.
[00:03:19] Sarah Jack: So spread the word. Let your people know that this is going on. Get them online looking. If they're in the area, send them over to go experience what's available.
[00:03:31] Josh Hutchinson: Be there.
One thing you'll notice at the exhibit and in this episode is how similar the Islandmagee witch trials were to many of the other witch trials that we've heard about, including those at places like Salem. And there's this element of a possible diabolical possession, and we talk about how there's a fine, flexible line basically between possession and bewitchment, basically comes down to who the victim blames. Does the victim say that the devil is affecting them directly, or do they blame it on a witch?
[00:04:24] Sarah Jack: And there's some great comparisons in the dialogue today, right out of the Salem history.
[00:04:32] Josh Hutchinson: Out of Salem, out of Connecticut, out of so many places, there are these cases with afflicted persons behaving very similar to how people behave when they're possessed by the devil, according to the set down traditions that we have from this time period.
[00:04:58] Sarah Jack: We are so happy to have Dr. Andrew Sneddon here today. He's the leading expert on the history of the Islandmagee Witch Trial of 1711 and has published widely on Irish witchcraft and magic. He has spent the last decade taking the untold story of the Islandmagee Witches and Irish witchcraft to a new, diverse, international audience. He has worked with numerous libraries, archives, museums, community, educational, and women's groups. He's the president of Ireland's oldest professional historical Society, Ulster Society for Irish Historical Studies.
[00:05:34] Josh Hutchinson: What sets the Irish Witch trials apart from others?
[00:05:38] Andrew Sneddon: I think the lack of them, probably, you start with a negative, Irish witchcraft. There was only a handful of trials now in the early modern period. Now there's a lot more trials after, ironically, the witch legislation is repealed. And they're involving witch accusation at some level, but they're not witch trials per se. But during the early modern witch hunts there, there's very few of them.
[00:06:07] Sarah Jack: The Witchcraft Act was enacted in 1586, but not repealed until 1821.
[00:06:14] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. So it's actually a copy of the Elizabethan Act of 1563, which I know that you've covered before, in other programs. This is part of the Elizabethan colonial rollout of legislation to, Uh, Ireland and did the roll out the Witchcraft Act as well. You're right, it's there right until the early 19th century. And it's almost, by that point, it rolls out of the imagination of the elites and it is just an administrative cleanup, I think Ian Bostridge said it was at one point, but that doesn't mean that popular witchcraft belief isn't everywhere, or that all elites don't believe in witchcraft anymore. But definitely of that legislative level after the Irish Parliament is away it's repealed.
[00:07:05] Josh Hutchinson: Can you quantify how many witch trials there were in Ireland?
[00:07:11] Andrew Sneddon: There was many accusations and formal accusations, but there were usually coming from Presbyterians and Presbyterians coming from Scotland with their own witchcraft place where, as you know, it was really bad. So they're coming after 1660, so most of them are not going to trial.
So there's loads of accusations that we know of, and some of them get to court, but don't go anywhere. So there's actually only two trials, two main trials. There's some trials before the 1586 Act and obviously ones after it, but there's only two main, one of Florence Newton in Youghal in Cork in 1661 and Islandmagee Witches in County Antrim in what is now Northern Ireland in Ulster in 1711, and this is nine people.
We don't really know what happened to Florence Newton, if she was executed or not. Some people think there are, but the, I've transcribed the, all the documents. It doesn't tell you what happened to her. And we know that the eight Islandmagee witches were not executed and, the, they missed out that, just, a legal nicety and on the day of the trial, and they were imprisoned under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act for four times in the pillory on Market Day, as well. And the one male witch we think might have been executed
[00:08:28] Sarah Jack: How do you think he would've been executed?
[00:08:32] Andrew Sneddon: Well, do you remember what we were talking about, the rolling out of the Irish witchcraft legislation was just a rolling out of the English witchcraft legislation? Again, by 1600 the older Gaelic systems of law, the Brehon law and systems of legal prosecution are being replaced at a county level in the 32 counties, at least with the English system.
So what you know about the English witch trials and how they were actually like governed, just put that in Ireland. So you've got justice of the peace, you've got magistrates, you've got the grand jury of 23 men. You've got the assize court. So all the things that are keeping witchcraft prosecution low in England, which it was quite hard to get somebody prosecuted for witchcraft in England, are operating in Ireland. So same legal administration, same courts, same law. And it's coming from Scottish Presbyterians. That's where the accusations are coming from. So it's very weird. It's a Catholic country with Presbyterians making the accusations, mainly that we know, and an English court system
[00:09:45] Josh Hutchinson: So it's a jumble of three different sets of beliefs and rules and traditions. Four.
[00:09:54] Andrew Sneddon: Four 'cause what we haven't talked about is a mass of the population. So you start getting Protestants coming in after the Reformation. Even before that Ireland has a colonial past from the 12th century, but they're in increasingly coming in after the 16th century and the plantation, and the people who are bringing them with them strong belief in witchcraft are usually coming from England.
So if you go back to Youghal, that is a puritan settler English place. It's in Cork. And so you will see familiars, and you'll see swimming. You'll see tropes that are in English witchcraft there. And then if you go up north, if you go to Islandmagee, you will see more Presbyterian and tropes.
But the fourth one is the mass of the population. The kind of, at this period, 80% of the population, they still Irish speaking, Irish Catholics, population and they are not making formal accusations. Now, in the past we would argue that it was because they didn't want to go to Protestant courts, but we found out that they did for other things, so they might have for witchcraft, it's still a permanent argument perhaps, but we've looked at, Ronald Hutton and myself, and we've looked at belief more, and we would suggest that they just, it's not that they didn't believe in witches. They just believed in a witch that was less threatening, that attacked agricultural produce, stole milk and butter.
Now, you get this in Poland and places where they do execute witches, but the threat level is higher there, because they have a higher demonic input to them. There is no demonic input to these beliefs. These witches are women. They shapeshift into hares to steal milk, and you get that more in the folklore, or they use a sympathetic magic to transfer the goodness from their own crops to elsewhere.
Now you will see this in Isle of Man, you'll see it in Wales, and you'll, as I said, you'll see in other countries. But when it starts to become a wee bit demonic or it becomes more of a problem, then that's when you start getting, I think, the prosecutions of witches. And you don't get that in Ireland, in this period, anyway. So the mass of the population have a low threat level of witchcraft. They have a witch figure, or it's nothing.
[00:12:16] Josh Hutchinson: So the people accused of witchcraft, generally, they weren't killing children and causing people to be sick, that kind of thing?
[00:12:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, I, and they weren't actually formally accusing them. They might have been doing it, probably don't know, because we just don't have their records. They're, they were an Irish speaking population, and we don't have, we don't know quite frankly. We know very little, we know about the beliefs usually transmitted through English, unfortunately, rather than, there is very little in Irish and it's mainly legal and political, and that has survived in manuscript form and nothing about witchcraft. It's usually transmitted through, as some people would say, the colonial gaze through English.
But let's go back to Islandmagee and let's get back to Youghal. What they're shared is, they're very similar, in fact, to Salem, the start of Salem. They're very similar to what you're getting in Lowland Scotland in the 1590s and the early 1700s. They are witchcraft trials involving demonic possession, where the main is demonic possession. Now, I know that there's controversy over whether there was demonic possession in Salem at the beginning, but definitely like the tropes are all there, the similarities, the fits, and the young people and blaming other people for that, blaming witches rather than blaming the devil himself, which would, indicate some sort of, sinfulness in their own parts. So they blame witches for their symptoms, so you get spectral evidence, although unlike Salem, it's not kicked out, it's the main one in Islandmagee, and it's the main one that's used in Youghal, as well, although witness testimony, as well.
And they actually in Islandmagee bring forth the vomited objects. That's why, we'll talk about it later, but that's why we've represented them in the VR. There's a material culture there. Yeah.
[00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: But the demonic was unusual for Ireland, even the type of possession that was occurring was that unusual?
[00:14:36] Andrew Sneddon: It wasn't unusual given who it's happening to, so you're getting demonic possessions in the late 16th century and early 17th century in England. And then lo and behold, you'll see it in Cork in 1661 among the same people, the settler populations. And then you're seeing it increasingly in the north of Ireland in Ulster from the people who are coming from Scotland.
I know that Brian Levack in a great book on witch-hunting in Scotland argued it was the Calvinist Network, the British Calvinist Network.
[00:15:09] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah and I were talking about demonic possession yesterday, and there was really like a fine line between what's demonic possession and what's bewitchment. So yeah, so sometimes hard to say.
[00:15:27] Andrew Sneddon: It is hard to say in some circumstances, but you can see when they're talking about the devil made me roll about or the devil will not get me, and when they're in their fits or their convulsions, as well, when, you know, the witches are visiting them, is it that's what's causing the convulsion or is it the devil or? It's much more clear cut when you go to certain places in Europe, when you're getting whole convents are demonically possessed.
But it is direct demonic possession, rather demonic possession via witchcraft. It starts to get a bit gray when you, when it's involving witchcraft, but I think in some clear cases that is clearly not your normal witch trial.
[00:16:09] Josh Hutchinson: It's easy for things to get out of hand. You mentioned Salem and Islandmagee starts with this possession or affliction, and then you bring in the spectral evidence. It's really easy for things to start getting outta hand.
[00:16:25] Andrew Sneddon: What I argue in my book, Possessed by the Devil, it was 2013, it was a long time ago I wrote. I'm writing a second edition as we speak, but what I suggested was what was key here. And especially when you're looking at 1711, within the grand scheme of things, it's a period of decline, perhaps not in belief, that's a tricky one, but definitely judicial skepticism and a drop in trials, different times, different places, different reasons, different rates of decline. We know that. But there definitely is trailing off. And what you need, a committed central actor. And again, Levack would argue they're following a cultural script here that's easy to learn. You need a central actor who's keeping it going all the way through that you can focus your attention on.
Now she is Mary Dunbar, she's 18. She's educated, she is visiting a family where there has been demonic obsession and the matriarch has died in suspicious circumstances. Now, she is as I said, educated, biblically sound. The male authors of the sources tell you that, at pains, that she's good looking and she's trustworthy and all this stuff, and they're always demoniacs, demonically-possessed people are always showing themselves to be paragons of virtue, and I think she does that.
Contrast against the eight women that she accuses, first of all, who are tried at 31st of March, 1711. They are visually different. They're disabled. Two of them have lost an eye, one has fell on a fire and is burnt down one side, she has a crooked hand, one has, in the parlance of the time, a club foot. They're a small pox scarred. And the idea that everybody was small pox scarred, , I don't think is true when you read diaries at how people are affected by their visual change.
So they'll look different, but they're also act different. They challenge patriarchal norms, they drink strong alcohol, wine, they smoke, they resist arrest. They don't follow the prosecution process. They try to evade it at every turn. And even when they have no idea what's going on at the trial, they still plead guilty and deny their innocence, right to, so there, there is resistance and there's agency, but these are marginal women. They're poor. They have dubious reputations. Some of them could have been practicing at some level popular magic. The contrast is really palpable between believable witches, marginalized people, and the believable accused. So they're believable witches and she's a believable witness. And it's a heady combination.
Then Mary Dunbar dies three weeks after the first trial. We don't know why. And it took me going through every newspaper in 1711 in Ireland, and I found it. And basically, yeah she died and, but she'd already been accusing a final witch, William Sellor. Janet Liston was his wife, and his daughter was Elizabeth Sellor. Basically, it went from a misdemeanor to a felony, because she had died in the time that she had accused him. And he went to trial in 1711. Like we do a lot of the time in Scottish trials, we are assuming that he was executed.
[00:19:58] Josh Hutchinson: So the eight women, they're tried first, and then Mary Dunbar dies, and then William Sellor is tried with the enhanced charges?
[00:20:08] Andrew Sneddon: Yes. And that's it. There is no more under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act. There's one, an interesting one, in 1807 where the person could have been prosecuted for witchcraft. Mary Butters, she's a cunning person. She's a magical practitioner or a service magician, if you want to use that parlance, and she tries to cure a bewitched cow, just like we were talking about there, and ends up killing everybody in the house. Her magic goes wrong and she kills them by carbon monoxide poisoning by burning sulfur in a house to where everything has been sealed up.
She could be done under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act, but isn't. And it just shows you there's no, at a judicial level, anyway, by that time to try people for witchcraft under the witchcraft act, so it's a dead letter in that sense. Doesn't mean belief has went anywhere.
[00:21:06] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means, that she was a cunning woman?
[00:21:12] Andrew Sneddon: If you look at the main historians, but the parlance, maybe it's changing. Some people don't like cunning folk because it's, it is anglophone. But and I want to widen the, the parameters of it, but there are among many magical practitioners, and I'll no go through them all, there's so many different ones and the borders between them are very different. But a fortune teller, for example. But a cunning person, I would say, is a multifarious magical practitioner. That is somebody who's commercial who usually charges money or goods in kind and usually perform more than one magical service. Now, this can be thief detection. This can be a counter magic, which is bread and butter a lot of the time. And that means detecting, thwarting, or bringing witches to the authorities. But they also can do some magical healing using herbs or spells or whatever that is not caused by supernatural means, that are natural means. And there's some divination in there, as well, as I said, lost or stolen goods, but also thief detection and that sort of thing. So they're remarkably consistent, cunning folk, that particular type, I think, from the early modern period, right through in the modern period. And you get 'em all over Europe, and you get them in America as well, right up to the late 19th century, possibly beyond.
[00:22:35] Josh Hutchinson: When people were accused of witchcraft in these few cases in Ireland, how were they tested?
[00:22:45] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, this is the thing, spectral evidence, by this time, they haven't used it after, I think, is it 1655 in England? And obviously, it's overturned in Salem and this is 1711 we're talking about. So they know there is ultimately question, so they, they do blind tests, almost pseudoscientific the, because a demonic possessed person will get worse when the person approaches them or touches them.
And they actually did that in some trials. I think they did that in the Bury St. Edmonds, one in 1645 in England. And they get the person to touch them. That could be said, oh, they're just seeing the person that they want to get executed and acting up. So they get them and bring them in silently and get them to come in behind them so they can't see it. They also get a lineup. They bring 30 people, from everywhere, 30 women from everywhere and line them up. And she has to pick out the witch. She says she's never met them before. She only has met them when they attack her spectrally.
[00:23:48] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of that sounds so familiar with Salem and other witch trials that we've talked about on the show before. In Salem, they did the touch test, the exact same thing. I wish they would've done a lineup, because that could have eliminated some of them who, the witnesses who were accusing didn't, like you said, they'd never met a lot of these people that they were naming beforehand, and so they would name somebody in some far off town and have no idea who they were when they saw them, except that they were the only one that was brought in. So by process of elimination, they're like, oh, that's Goody Sandwich or whoever it was.
[00:24:39] Andrew Sneddon: The problem there is that Mary Dunbar says she had never met them before, but she's able to pick them out every single time. Every single time.
[00:24:47] Josh Hutchinson: So she knew them somehow?
[00:24:49] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I argue in the book that she's got an accomplice.
[00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We know in some of the testimony in Salem, there's accounts given by like defense witnesses that say we heard that afflicted accuser ask somebody, "who is that lady who's up there, who's the prisoner at the bar?" And they would get information from the crowd. But yeah, she must have known somehow. You don't get a hundred percent right.
[00:25:19] Andrew Sneddon: No, and you, the public spectacles. The house was absolutely full, and you could argue if it's demon possession case. It's a chance to see the devil in action. You are basically touching the other world through this person. And yeah, there's no tv, This is something that's happening in a community in a peninsula that is eight miles long with 300 people in it. You can see why everybody's interested in it. And you're right, there could be all sorts of things that, that are happening that are culturally transmitting this to her. The idea that is a cultural script, that she's actually following a script, but she's also reacting like every good actor to the audience.
This is why I think their symptoms change in demonic possession cases. Now not all of symptoms are simulated. They can start off simulated and then become unsimulated. They can be suffering from some illness. Now, I couldn't, I went through all the types and I couldn't see, and they usually would bring this up at some point. And they did before in other occasions in Ireland, but they didn't, here. I think it was simulated to some extent in Mary Dunbar's case.
[00:26:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I have some theories about that too, about how in Salem, at least, the afflicted persons, there might've been some illness, there might've been just a genuine fear that they were bewitched and like you alluded to, with the touch test, they get near the person that they think is afflicting them, they're gonna act out somehow just because the fear is gonna overwhelm them.
[00:27:08] Andrew Sneddon: They know what's expected culturally, there's a cultural script. They know how to react in a demonic possession case. They know where it is and that's when, we've always tried to, I've tried to do is that the idea of these people live in a magical moral universe where spiritual essences are constantly interfering in your world, everybody believes that some sense, not everybody, but a lot of people, the accused and accusers would believe in witches and witchcraft and the possibility of demonic possession. But then again, you've got quite a lot to gain. We've talked about the forces, the patriarchal forces, that brought the eight women to the fore, those patriarchal forces were also constraining Mary Dunbar. She's in a tight, clerical family. She's not considered in Ireland an adult. Doesn't matter if she's 40 until she's married. Even then, I understand the agency, I understand resistance, and understand the ways that you can overturn patriarchy and the forces that cut through patriarchy, but it still limits your options. And so you could see it in that sense as well.
It's a reaction against are very strict, gendered, patriarchal upbringing. You are able to swear in the minister, punch 'em, spit on them, rip up bibles, cavort, and roll about in beds with young men without any damage to your reputation. You can move from the margins of adult attention to the center stage of a drama of your own creation. Now, this is James Sharpe who put words to this and Philip Almond, when he was studying mainly English demonic possessions. But I think it's, I think it's a good explanation. I don't think it's total explanation in all demonic possessions, but I think it works here.
[00:29:00] Josh Hutchinson: It works in so many cases that we've heard about of this kind of thing it's these young women who have the pressures to get married and be good Christians and good mothers and wives, and they're acting out against the system that's squeezed them into that role.
[00:29:24] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. And so that's why, accuser and accused, and putting pejorative spins on both, I think is a mistake. I think you have to understand the situation they're in.
A community itself is under pressure because the Presbyterians are being basically turned against, they, they help to defeat the the Catholic uprising and they help bring William of orange to power and then they're abandoned by the Church of Ireland.
They're trying to shut down their schools. They're trying to enforce old laws. After 1704, they force 'em out of local government. So they feel that they're their whole raison d'etre is under threat. Their whole religion and religious freedom are under threat. And that's the Presbyterians in 1711. Now, you get economic downturn and then you get famine, and then they all go, like whole communities from where I'm sitting, just go to America. Just, we're talking a minister and 300 families, they just go to America.
There's pressures there and communities under crisis. All these things make whatever problems you've got worse. We've all lived through covid. If you were having anything, any problems in Covid, the wider situation made them worse, and I definitely think you've gotta look at that when you're looking at Islandmagee, as well.
[00:30:51] Josh Hutchinson: We've heard about this almost formula of this confluence of all these tensions that has to occur to put the pressure on the community so that they start seeing witches, things like the warfare and the crop failure and religious conflict.
[00:31:13] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a whole load of things. Not all the time, but it's a whole load of things going wrong at the same time when you get a mass trial.
And this is a mass trial, nine people. So it is.
[00:31:26] Josh Hutchinson: Out of a community of 300, that's a lot of people. We've talked about the demonic possession. In Islandmagee, there's also a talk about a demonic boy. What can you tell us about that character?
[00:31:42] Andrew Sneddon: He is part of the demonic obsession. It's like it's a precursor, it's where the demon, and you'll see it quite a lot of the time in Presbyterian Ulster, where they get the elders from the Presbyterian church and they get a minister to come and investigate instances of this, where a demon is basically wrecking the house. Fast forward 150 years and it's a poltergeist, but at this point it's demonic obsession, and the demonic boy seems to be at the core of this. And he a appears to old Mrs. Haltridge. Now old Mrs. Haltridge owns the house. She's the widow of a Presbyterian minister and that's where Mary Dunbar visits, 'cause she is the niece of Anne Haltridge. After that, she's died in mysterious circumstances and that's when it all kicks off.
The demonic boy visits old Mrs. Haltridge and threatens her and grabs a Turkey cock and tries to kill it with a sword and smashes windows. But do you remember I was talking an accomplice? One of the persons who see this is the servant, Margaret Spear, and she is around a lot when this happens before me comes and then she's around that when a lot it happens, 'cause this behavior continues. They only, I think, Mary Dunbar only sees the demonic boy, once or twice. Now the demonic boy is obviously, a demon and it's recognized sometimes it's called a spirit. And this is the popular imagination. Sometimes specters and demons, there's a porous boundary between them, they're always coming up against it. You've mentioned it already, the unstable meanings all the time when you're dealing with witchcraft. And I think that is definitely one of them. The demonic boy. He is dressed in black. He's got everything that tells you he's a demon.
[00:33:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like he was a little prankster or something to me.
[00:33:48] Andrew Sneddon: Or it's fantasy.
[00:33:50] Josh Hutchinson: Either one.
[00:33:51] Andrew Sneddon: The demonic body wasn't seen by many, but a lot of the witnesses saw the other stuff, right? So they saw a big bolster pillow about two foot high walk across the floor of the kitchen. They saw a petticoat just twirling. This is like horror movie stuff, twirling in the middle of the floor. You've got lithobolia everywhere, getting pelted with stones and other classic demonic obsession possession thing. Cats, there's some demonic cats in there. If you wanna see something similar, look at the trial of Jane Wenham in 1712, a year later in Hertfordshire loads of people have written loads of good stuff on it. But you can see some of the politicization happens in 1711 in Islandmagee, as well. You see it becoming a party political tool between whig and Torries, only it's reversed in Ireland. The Torries want to let the Islandmagee witches off, and the Presbyterians want to get her prosecuted.
[00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have a couple of these stone throwing demon cases in New England, also. There's one we're looking at in Massachusetts right now, the Elizabeth Morse case, with her grandson that comes to live with her and then all the weird stuff starts happening with the bed moving in the night and stones coming in the chimney and all these things. So that sounds like it was the demonic obsession playbook.
If you want to talk about the 19th century, what happens then as far as witchcraft accusations?
[00:35:27] Andrew Sneddon: They don't end. I have argued elsewhere that witchcraft belief, there is people who publicly deny it and then what they do actually suggests that they do believe in it, right? So they say they don't believe in witches, but they will put up witch stones to protect their houses or they will maybe accuse somebody of witchcraft or they will not go somewhere or something, it'll affect their behavior.
And then there's people who say they believe in witchcraft and this and accuse people of witchcraft and follow through it even to the court, and you're getting this in the 19th century in Ireland. So by the late 19th century we were talking about kinda polarization between Gaelic Irish Catholic belief and Protestant settler belief. I think they come together in a kinda perfect storm.
So the Protestant belief, you get more of this kind of dairy stealing seeping into that. And you can see it even when it goes to some, go to the church courts, the Presbyterian church courts. You can see it by the late 1700s and again, I think on the other side, Gaelic Irish communities, what you'll see is by the 19th century definitely is witches can harm human beings more. And itself, the act of, especially after the famine in the 1640s that stealing produce and in rural areas becomes a bigger problem and something, especially among the communities where these accusations are happening.
So people are accusing, again, accusing their neighbors, usually co-religionists. There's usually not Catholic v Protestant, it's usually Catholic against Catholic, and they're accusing them of killing cows, stealing butter, stealing, even transforming into hare, sometimes, but usually just stealing butter, using the evil eye on their cows, using charms, buried on their land, things like that, and they're accusing each other, but they can't really take them to court because after 1821, there's no act to do it by, and whether they want to anyway, but what they take things into their own hands, so you'll get accusers just like in England and just like in 19th century America accusers grabbing them and swimming them and, you know, beating them up. But in Ireland, it's usually rather than mobs doing it as an England, in some places in America in the 19th century, in Ireland, it's usually individuals.
So what you'll do is you'll think somebody has been stealing the milk produce from your cows using sympathetic magic. And you'll get cases where they shoot them, they hit them with shovels, they hit them with reaping hooks. There's one murder. And Will Pooley again is doing some brilliant work in France showing that this is happening in France as well.
And so you're getting accusers taking it out that way, but they're also using the lower courts that are rolled out after 1840s, the petty sessions. And so what they're doing is they can't prosecute somebody for magically stealing their milk or their butter or killing the cow, but what they can do is they can do them for theft. They're, you know what they think they've magically stole their milk, but they're just doing them for theft.
The people who are accused are also using the law to accuse their accusers of slander. And sometimes they're finding themselves in hot water, because what they're doing is reacting to the accusation by beating up the accuser. So they're doing the same thing and or slander in the accuser, so you're getting flooded after 1840s up to the end of the 19th century of these accusations, usually in lower courts, but sometimes they go to the higher courts, like the quarter sessions or the assizes when some serious, when they're slashing people, and it's not just like a factional violence, this is violence it targeted to, against something you think has bewitched you or the other way around. And so you're getting that right up until the end of the 19th century. I think that the last one that I came across, it tails off in the 20th century, and the last one's in 1946. The last big one is 1927, so it's tailing off definitely in the 20th century. Courts are just turning their backs, especially when the island of Ireland separates into Northern Ireland and the Republic in 1921, but the belief's still there and you're still getting it in rural areas right up to the end of the 20th century, belief, especially in witches who can harm cattle or steal produce and occasionally harm humans.
[00:40:15] Josh Hutchinson: 1927, huh?
[00:40:18] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And you'll see as well, if you look at the material culture, if you look at some of the objects that survive, and this is a real one, a witch stone, hag stone. You'll see these in museums in Northern Ireland and they're hung in buyers or sometimes wee ones around the necks of the cows to protect them.
So they, they do take it seriously. They're used against fairies sometimes, as well, and also, yeah, I think it's important to look at doubt and to look at saying one thing and doing another. But I think it's very important to understand as well, in the Irish context, at least, people are believing in witches, they're frightened of them, and they're doing something about it for a good party in the 19th century.
[00:41:00] Sarah Jack: I don't understand, like that's less than a hundred years ago. How did so many of us forget and we don't understand what these protective things are just a century later? How did that happen?
[00:41:17] Andrew Sneddon: Just like cultural memory and social memory, there is a great book by Guy Beiner called Social Forgetting. And I've argued in a book in 2022 called Representing Magic that you've got all this kind of popular belief, right? But the books and sermons written by male elites are saying they're using enlightenment rhetoric. They're in the 19th century.
But the idea that we are enlightened elites. We are enlightened. This land's enlightened. We are moved beyond the ignorance and the bigotry of the witch hunts. Look how great we are, and they use it as an example to place distance between them and themselves. And it's easier in, in Ireland 'cause there's so few of them anyway, it's the same rhetoric you'll see in England and you'll see in North America as well.
The historians will talk about historic witch trials in the 19th century and the antiquarians, and completely ignore the fact that all this is happening around them. And you'll see it in the cultural representations, as well. Ian Bostridge and Owen Davies were saying that witchcraft is history, basically. And it's the same thing. It's, it is when you deal with witchcraft, you deal with the historic example. So when the 19th century, they love talking about Islandmagee, they love talking about Youghal. They don't discuss the fact it's happening all around them. And what they also do, they, and invest it with gender ed language as well. By the 19th century, the end of the 19th century, is weaponized by the newspapers. And so what they start talking about, again, some of the same newspapers as reporting the crimes at another part of the newspaper are saying, "oh, there is some belief, but we're past that." But still, it is still there.
And the historians, as well. And the newspapers are gendering it just as female. Now as we, we saw 1711, there was a male witch, but also in the 19th century, a lot of these people who are accused are actually male, as well. I think it's something like 40%. I can't remember the figures off top of my head, but I think Will Pooley's finding this in France as well, that there's a far greater proportion of men, so their gendering it as female. They're just saying it is something that's passed and that has been reproduced in newspapers and then it's been reproduced in culture and poetry and paintings and drama. And I think that's where it is, and you'll find that in Ireland.
And you know what they'll say why are you doing witchcraft? And I was told by hundreds of people, even historians, what are you doing, because there wasn't any in Ireland. I think part of that is a problem that it was remembered at a local level 'cause people in Islandmagee for two centuries after it remembered it, but there's a discursive silence around it as well.
When we are saying about this kind of, almost discursive silence, that's, if you're looking at kinda official sources, you're looking at sermons, you're looking at male elites. But if you take on board folklore and material culture, if you go beyond the kind of, you don't know, almost the official to the vernacular, whether it is in Irish or English, if you go to the folklore, then you will find, I think this more and more, and that's where I have went as well to learn about witchcraft. And it's something that Guy Beiner argues as well, that when he was talking about the 1798 rebellion it's forgotten in certain spheres, but kept alive in others in different ways, in, in different contexts. And I think it, it works for the Islandmagee trial as well.
[00:45:00] Josh Hutchinson: Talking about the material culture, what were some other forms of protective magic that might have been employed?
[00:45:08] Andrew Sneddon: The big thing you know, would be, especially, and in Ireland would be protecting the churn. So you would put hot embers into the churn when you're churning. You would maybe have something roundabout the churn. You would make sure that people didn't say things or do things, you wouldn't have anybody looking at the churn. With children as well you have a lot of, especially when they were young, a lot of rituals and sometimes objects used to protect against witchcraft.
But just like in everywhere else, you get written charms are held close to the body, especially in soldiers. You get personal amulets all those sorts of protective magic. And you get, it's used in Islandmagee, as well. She first goes to a Catholic priest who, she's a Presbyterian, but it just shows you the cross boundaries of popular magic, because he's meant to have the best charm. So she goes to him, it doesn't work, and then she goes to a Scottish man, and he has one that works, but it makes her worse. So they cut it off, and it's a magical string that she uses , but they also use herbs as well. Especially this is something that's probably argued more by Ronald Hutton. He would say that witchcraft belief wasn't taken up as much because the Gaelic Irish believed in fairies and a lot of the things that fairies did were blamed on witches but use a lot of vervain and other plants were used, foxglove, all the kind of stuff, and mountain ash as well. You all the ones you see elsewhere would be used either to cure or as protection, but they're limitless. I could go all day on the different types.
[00:46:50] Josh Hutchinson: The commemorative project and exhibition, can you just explain that in a nutshell to begin with?
[00:46:57] Andrew Sneddon: This is a commemorative an a memorialization. The first plaque to Islandmagee Witches was erected this year. That was something outside the project, something we were involved in, but something that was outside this project. No. And we have taken it forward with this exhibition.
It's the first exhibition of an Irish witchcraft trial. And it's happening here. As far as I know, it's the first one. And it comes out of a project called the Islandmagee Witches a creative and digital project. The website is, and I'm sure you can put it up in yours, w1711.org, and all the outputs are there.
And what we wanted to do was to take this to another level. I have a practitioner of public history. I've done TV and podcast, but it mainly radio and TV and talks. And I took it all after it broke in 2013. I took this everywhere. I was talking about it a lot. This is creative collaboration of public history where the historian is actually helping to create a history as well.
So the outputs are that, so we are wrote with a local graphic artist from Derry, Londonderry, a graphic novel about the trial. We also wrote with it, the project I'll say is led by me and Dr. Victoria McCollum, but it involves a whole load of people from Ulster University as well, and a lot of funding from Connected and AHRC and things like that.
But the VR was with Dr. Helen Jackson. And that makes you become demonically possessed. And we're trying to get across what it's like to be demonically possessed, but also what it's like to be accused in a kind of way to deal with intangible cultural heritage in a very immediate and immersive environment and let people engage with the story that might not otherwise engage with it.
So the VR there, but we've also got a prototype of a video game. Again, it's a kind of serious video game where you go into the shoes of the accuser. And it's just trying understand the moral choices and why people accused, not just to understand the accused, but understand the accuser and why these things happen. So that's the video game.
And then there's a bespoke animation. We got a local all women animation studio in Belfast to create a 14 minute animation, which I scripted on it. And that is actually in the VR app, but I think you can access that through the website, as well. And the graphic novel, as well. And we got local people, and we got staff and students Adam Melvin and Brian Coyle and Sabrina Minter. They were working on the computer game. And Adam was working on the score, so he has come up with an original score for the VR.
Lastly no, we're doing a lot of workshops as well. So we're doing creative writing workshops, we're doing printing workshops, but we're also putting on a play called Witches in Eden. And this is produced by Dr. Lisa Fitzpatrick, Ulster University, Victoria and myself.
And it's involving staff and students, and Witches in Eden was written in 1948, just before The Crucible, and it actually contains a lot of the tropes of The Crucible, by Olga Fielden, who was a Belfast based playwright. And it's never been put on since I think 1951. And I wrote about that in Representing Magic, the 22 book, as a kind of idea of exploring the cultural representations and the afterlife of the Islandmagee trial. But, Victoria had a great idea. Why don't we put it on and, so it'll be on, in the Riverside Theatre at the end of October in Coleraine in Northern Ireland. The exhibition is in Carrickfergus, and that is on the ninth, and it runs to the 16th of November, 2023. There's a big launch in the 16th.
The great thing about it, so the exhibition space right, is across the road from where the trial happened. Touching distance.
[00:51:10] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
Wow.
[00:51:13] Andrew Sneddon: So, yeah. And you can see more about it on the website. We're working with other people who work in memorialization, as well, the University of Highland and Island working with RAGI and other people who, who have worked on, how to memorialize in different ways, not just through plaques, but through digital and creative technologies and storytelling.
[00:51:34] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a creative way to present the story to this generation of people. Use all the technology that's available and it's like you've covered every form of media that you can, basically.
[00:51:53] Andrew Sneddon: It is been quite thorough, but it was organic. We didn't go right. We're doing everything right,
[00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: yeah,
[00:51:58] Andrew Sneddon: but, but we work in a university with such talented people like Brian and Adam and Sabrina and Victoria and Helen and Shannon Devlin and the history department, as well, and Lisa Fitzpatrick, all these people who are so good at what they do. And if they come together and we work as a team, it's amazing what you can achieve.
[00:52:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm hoping it serves as an example for other locations where there were witch trials.
[00:52:25] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And so you don't go down the Disney World of war, aspect, you know that some places are, over commercialization, certain that with respect, and the historical aspects we respect as well, that there were real people with descendants that are still around.
[00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Speaking of the commercialization, you were recently in Salem actually, weren't you?
[00:52:51] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I've been before and to be honest, the first time I went I was more kinda whoa than the second time, yeah, I was doing a kind of tour, so we went, Victoria and I went Steilneset Monument, monument in Vardo in Norway in winter, which was mad at the Arctic in winter.
[00:53:12] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
[00:53:13] Andrew Sneddon: and that was absolutely beautiful and, in the snow and in it, so well done, just look it up if you don't know about it, is to 91 people executed in that region, Finnmark in the 17th century, mostly women, some indigenous people as well, and then going to Salem as well, where the history, you've got the kinda big set pieces of the memorialization, but the history otherwise is fighting to get out.
[00:53:45] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
[00:53:46] Andrew Sneddon: So you're, you are looking for the history, and I love them in memorials. And I and I like the most recent one, is it 2016? That was erected. I didn't see that the first time I went, but I've seen that and I think the all got their, the all get their they're good points.
I do think the memorialization is very good and I do like them, and they're very important, especially in that context, you've got a statue to Samantha from Bewitched.
[00:54:13] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yes. There's a statue of her, just like a block or two away from the first memorial to the witch trial victims. Yeah, it's interesting juxtaposition there, the history and the modern.
[00:54:31] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. That's why I haven't tried, a disentangle, and we just discussed it there, the kind of, what happened and the way it's been represented and the way it's used, and I think that you can be creative with it. And I think you can, I don't think you, you can, you have to say the historians just know the the story because we've read the documents, now on the website, I've put every document for the Islandmagee trial. I've digitized them. They're all there for you. But it's more than that. And we've included them in the exhibition as well.
But it's more than that, and that's why we've got the workshops, the storytelling, and the printmaking. People can make their own histories, and we shouldn't try to have ownership completely as historians of these stories. So that is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying sometimes the representations that you know are not all positive, and and the commercialization aspect that are not all positive.
[00:55:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, but a lot of those attractions, they do get people's attention. It's just somebody has to come in and say, set the record straight at some point.
[00:55:40] Andrew Sneddon: The thing is as well, what happens is what, 2,500 executing Scottish history and 38 in American history, but most popular consciousness would say, what's the big witch trial? What do they think of Salem And that, I was talking to somebody the other day when we were actually launching something and yeah, they were absolutely gobsmacked. And I says, yeah, there was more people executed in one car park in Perth in Scotland than the whole of Salem. And that has only been righted now in the last two years with this new kind of campaign. And for the, I didn't, I'm Scottish I'm from Glasgow. I did not hear of any of this growing up. I didn't know there was any witches in Scotland. But I think that's changing as well. That kind of, and then that's the power of representation. That's the power of cultural representation and what a leaves out and what puts in.
[00:56:32] Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable that you can grow up and not hear about these things. And there were just so many in Scotland. We hear that from people in places like Connecticut in the US where there were witch trials and people just don't know that they happened. You grow up, you go to school there, and they never talk about it. But for a whole nation like Scotland to just turn its back on the memory. That's really something.
[00:57:03] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. Again, forgetting, so it's we're putting it behind us. It was a bad time. We were one of the first enlightened countries in Europe. We were the home of moral philosophers and Adam Smith, Glasgow University, and Edinburgh University, and St. Andrews. We're not all about witches. The people who were writing history in the 20th century perhaps, no interest in that either, 'cause it's ordinary people.
[00:57:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw that with Connecticut. A lot of the antiquarians in the 19th century wanted to show the state in a good light, and so they would poke fun at Massachusetts and say that we never had anything like that here. They did.
[00:57:47] Andrew Sneddon: That's exactly what was happening in Ireland, yeah. Putting distance between I, Owen and Davis does it brilliantly in America Bewitched, is putting distance between, the past and ourselves, and using it as an oppositional tool regionally, as well. look at.
[00:58:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. They did that in the States with Salem before the American Civil War. The southern states were poking fun at the northern states for having witch trials. And yeah, you just use it as this political thing later on, and then today, of course witch-hunt has become just a real political metaphor that's used, I would say way too often.
[00:58:30] Andrew Sneddon: You've had Marion Gibson on talking, and she brilliantly showed the kind of misogynistic aspects of The Crucible. And arguably, the Crucible brought forth that idea of the witch-hunt as politic, getting rid of your rivals, and it's used a lot of the times, I think, misogynistically today by men who you know are accused, of all sorts, but accusing his accusers using that, which is doubly insulting, I, I don't like modern appropriation of the word witch-hunt, because as your whole podcast shows, it's so complex even to appropriate it at all. It's so reductive. But to appropriate it in that way is particularly bad, I think.
[00:59:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And there's still people dying in literal witch hunts. And then you're gonna use that as a political thing and say, no, I'm a victim here. You're not.
[00:59:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And it's usually the worst type of people who are using it.
[00:59:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes,
[00:59:30] Andrew Sneddon: I'm.
[00:59:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. The ones who are guilty as sin. Yeah.
So I definitely encourage everybody to go check out that exhibit. I really wish that I could be there to see it myself. It sounds amazing. So many different aspects coming together to really immerse people in this.
[00:59:56] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely.
[00:59:57] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.
[01:00:07] Mary Bingham: For me, the most important reason to memorialize is to remember. We memorialize a loved one or an event through the preservation of memories, perhaps sharing stories, looking at a scrapbook, listening to a compilation of that person's favorite music, erecting a burial monument. Creating a celebration of life ceremony.
No matter what we do to memorialize a person, group, or people and or event, we keep their legacy alive. When I first started to roam Essex County in search of my ancestors, I looked for their burial sites to visit their graves, to pay my respects, and to thank them for their decisions which caused me to be alive today. I still do that from time to time. Then they wanted to find where they lived, how they lived, where they walked, discover their experiences, funny, odd, different, wonderful, and sad. It was during this part of my journey, which led me to stand where some of my ancestors were hanged to death in the area of Proctor's ledge at Salem Mass in British America, 1692. A simple, beautiful, and important memorial was built and dedicated at that site on July 19th, 2017, so that the area would no longer be lost to history.
Now, descendants can visit from time to time to pay their respects. Another beautiful memorial was dedicated 25 years prior to Proctor's ledge in 1992, and is located in Salem abutting the Charter Street Cemetery. 20 beautiful stone benches are attached to a stone wall lined with beautiful trees and historic homes for descendants and many visitors to sit and contemplate the lives of those whose names are engraved on each of those benches who were executed in 1692.
However, my favorite memorial to the victims at Salem is the monument that was also erected in 1992 and is located on Hobart Street in current day Danvers, Mass. The beautiful life-sized stone monument is in two parts. The front displays the Book of Life with a replica of the iron shackles that accused would have worn while in prison. The back displays the Puritan Minister. The one thing that stands out is that this is the only monument that lists the 25 names of the people who died as a result of the Salem Witch Hunts that year, the 20 that were executed and the five who died in jail. Not only that, but also engraved are the powerful statements that the accused said during their pretrial examinations. It is a wonderful way to contemplate their lives, offer a glimpse into their horrifying experience, and share lessons on how we can learn from history.
And here are all their names. Infant daughter of Sarah Good died in prison before June. Sarah Osborne died in the Boston Prison May 10th, Bridget Bishop hanged June 10th, Roger Toothaker died in the Boston Prison June 16th, Sarah Good hanged July 19th, Susanna Martin hanged july 19th. Elizabeth Howe hanged July 19th. Sarah Wildes hanged july 19th. Rebecca Nurse hanged July 19th. George Burroughs hanged August 19th. George Jacobs, Sr. hanged August 19th. Martha Carrier hanged August 19th. John Proctor hanged August 19th. John Willard hanged August 19th. Giles Corey died under torture September 19th. Martha Corey hanged september 22nd. Mary Esty hanged September 22nd, Mary Parker hanged September 22nd, Alice Parker hanged September 22nd, Ann Pudeator hanged September 22nd, Wilmot Redd hanged September 22nd, Margaret Scott hanged september 22nd, Samuel Wardwell hanged September 22nd, Ann Foster died in prison December 3rd. Lydia Dustin died in prison March 10th, 1693. Rest in peace. You'll never be forgotten.
May those who suffered a similar fate at Ireland in 1711 also rest in peace. Thank you.
[01:05:08] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:05:10] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[01:05:20] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch-hunt memorials and commemorations serve as enduring tangible reminders. They provide comfort and solace and education. We can touch the cool, solid surface of a monument like we are reaching out and connecting with witch trial victims of the past, even though they're no longer physically present. Tributes like historical fiction, coffees named in honor of a witch trial victim, stone and metal monuments, and arts that teach and commemorate, like Salem by Ballet Des Moines, the play Prick, the play The Last Night, the play Saltonstall's Trial, the play Witches in Eden, the Echoes of the Witch photographic documentary, and multimedia museum and online exhibits like w1711.org, are a lasting witness of the impact these lives had on the world. You can listen to previous episodes to learn more about each of these projects. I hope the w1711.org project brings you to reflection, contemplation, and advocacy action.
September brings cooler temperatures, crisp, warm colors in nature, and a season of anticipated festivities, like fall festivals that hold meaningful rituals, well-planned get togethers and individual and group celebrations across the earth.
We are moving into the final quarter of the year and considering and planning for what lies ahead after December. What lies ahead for thousands of vulnerable world citizens is experiencing unjust violence due to excited sorcery accusations inside their communities. When individuals are branded as a witch and blamed for causing harm with witchcraft, their actual safety and life is in danger, and it often comes at the hand of their own families and neighbors. Please learn more about the advocacy that is happening around the world by going to our show notes and finding links to advocacy groups.
Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.
[01:08:07] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:08:09] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:08:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:08:15] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:08:17] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:08:20] Sarah Jack: See what's going on at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:08:23] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and everyone that you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[01:08:31] Sarah Jack: Support the global efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling speak about their new play production Prick. Prick is inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign and tells the story of folk who were victims of the terrible miscarriage of justice of the witch trials in Scotland. The story of Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. This special conversation is a reflection of the evocative, poetic, and satirical way artistic work can deliver a relevant and critical message about our history and human experience.
[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Today we're here with the makers of the play Prick, which is now showing at Edinburgh Fringe. We are talking to writer Laurie Flanigan Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling.
[00:00:46] Sarah Jack: Prick is a satirical play about Scottish witch trials.
[00:00:50] Josh Hutchinson: Features stories of three witch trial victims, including an unknown woman, Marioun Twedy, and Isobel [00:01:00] Gowdie.
[00:01:00] Sarah Jack: There's difficult topics dealt with in the story, like pricking and shaving and watching of the alleged witches, and it's really an important part of understanding what thousands of women went through a few centuries ago.
[00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: Puppetry is employed throughout. The art of the puppets is masterful, and how they're used in the scenes really brings life to the settings, and the puppets help make uncomfortable topics more comfortable. It's a quite enjoyable play. There's dark comedic elements to it, and it's got the devil himself.
[00:01:48] Sarah Jack: Laurie, Meggie, and Madeline have a great conversation with us about how this play came together, the significance.
[00:01:59] Josh Hutchinson: A [00:02:00] lot of the themes of the play are very relevant today, including the ever present element of misogyny in the witch trials and in women's lives these days, also. And so you learn about the double meaning of the name Prick, why they chose that name.
[00:02:25] Sarah Jack: In this conversation, they share some things that you're not gonna get from just attending the play, so this is a really great opportunity to understand the layers. Here is a special conversation about Prick, which was written by Laurie, directed by Meggie, with puppets created by Madeline.
[00:02:48] Josh Hutchinson: What brought your creation team and performance team together?
[00:02:53] Meggie Greivell: So I reached out to Laurie last summer with [00:03:00] the hopes of writing a play about the Scottish Witch Trials, because it had piqued my interest since I moved to Scotland in 2021. I found out about the North Berwick Witch Trials, and I was very shocked and angered. And I'm graduating with my master's in directing soon. And this project is my directing thesis. I needed a play that was a new work, and I reached out to Laurie, because I'd worked with her before at the History Theatre in St. Paul, Minnesota. And I really loved her writing. And she said yes, she was interested in writing this play, and that's how we began. And Laurie, do you wanna take it from there?
[00:03:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was interesting, because when Meggie asked me to do it, it was at a point where I had been, is the word fallow? When you don't have, you haven't been writing or like it, it had been a very fallow time for me, and I was just so happy to have a project to explore, but [00:04:00] I didn't know how to get into this project at first. The subject was so huge, and once I started researching, I felt pretty daunted by kind of the scope of it and a little bit nervous about the fact that I'm an American playwright who has, at that point I hadn't been to Scotland and I didn't really understand the history.
[00:04:21] And then as things clicked along in my research, things started coming together in my brain. My introduction to this piece was through listening to modern media, which is podcasts. I was listening to your podcast and Witches of Scotland podcast and getting to know all of the amazing writers and historians and researchers through their own words.
[00:04:49] And as time went on, I got more and more immersed in the understanding of the witch trials and how things connected. And I'm still right now [00:05:00] working on understanding what's happening in the modern world, which I was just saying, Sarah, that I had listened recently to your episode about Papua New Guinea, and it was, came for me at a very timely moment in my own understanding of just how our modern world is expressing this same horror that the women in this play lived through. But you'll notice in the play that media and the, kicking off with news of Scotland and my little kind of twisted take on that it is directly related to my relationship to media and the subject of the witch trials and the spread of witchcraft through the modern world.
[00:05:40] Sarah Jack: And did you guys plan on incorporating puppetry?
[00:05:45] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I would say right out of the gate I knew that I had the title Prick before I had anything else. When I heard about witch prickers I was, I said, "Meggie, I'd like to call it Prick." And she said, "yes, please do." And I knew that I wanted pricking [00:06:00] and the pricker to be a theme of the play but that I did not want to ask any actor or audience member to be subjected to seeing any kind of torture or harm inflicted on a body on stage.
[00:06:17] And so from the gate, I said, I'd like to incorporate puppets. And by the way, my neighbor across the street is a puppet artist that I've been dying to work with. That's Madeline Helling. She's with us today. And I told Meggie I wanted to use puppets. She gave me a wholehearted endorsement and Madeline was immediately part of the process. Madeline, do you wanna say anything about that?
[00:06:41] Madeline: Oh yeah, just Laurie said, "I have this project, it's about the witch trials." And I, yeah, it was an easy yes, easy thing to say yes to. The theme and working with Laurie and then doing this in Scotland was very exciting. Yeah, and Minneapolis is a really vibrant puppet community, so [00:07:00] I've had a lot of amazing experience working with a lot of amazing people here. That helped me gain some skills to do that.
[00:07:09] Josh Hutchinson: That's interesting. I didn't know that about Minneapolis.
[00:07:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, it's a hotbed actually. There's a large puppet community and the, so the vocabulary of using puppets is something that I'm really familiar with as a theater artist, and I think, because of that vocabulary, and Meggie has lived in the Twin Cities too. We know, we all understand like what a puppet can mean in terms of emotion and how evocative a puppet can be. It's like a musical element. Does that jive with what you would say, Madeline, that there's a lyricism to using puppets?
[00:07:41] Madeline: Yeah, I think it's just a language understood the world over and it's a street language that like, it's just, it's a cheap art form that is, there's roots in it all over the world. And in that way it has this sort of universality to it. And there's this way that [00:08:00] puppets, like everything they do has to be articulated. And in that way it can draw a little more focus and attention on certain elements, physical elements like breath is an action in a purposeful way, which is, I feel like for this play, for Prick it makes so much sense to have puppets in it.
[00:08:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: We also wanted to incorporate aspects of the world, of the other world, the familiars. and. When I said to Madeline, "I'd like a fox, a jackdaw," immediately that was possible and shape-shifting is possible. And it did organically change. My first draft, I think, Meggie, I said that there were puppets attached to bodies on stage, and that was just my first thought about it. And it evolved into the design that Madeline brought to us. But yeah, Meggie, I don't know. What did you think when I said puppets right away? You never seemed to fight that.
[00:08:55] Meggie Greivell: I jumped right in. I was gonna say puppets are also [00:09:00] having, I think, a golden age in theater right now. In the UK they are, I think in the US they are, too. But in the UK, especially, with shows like a Warhorse that was, took over the West End and the Life of Pi right now has just won so many Tony Awards. The puppet artists and the tiger won a Tony Award. It was the first ever puppeteers to win a Tony Award, the seven actors that play the tiger.
[00:09:28] I'd never done it before, and I thought this sounds like a great opportunity to learn and for all of the student actors to learn, as well. And also I knew that it would help tell our story that we wanna tell, especially with The Accused puppet and not wanting to show a woman being tortured on stage. But also The Accused has become this really powerful symbol for women not having control over their own bodies during the witch trials.[00:10:00] And I think puppets bring magic to the theater. Like they belong in the theater and on the street, as you say, Madeline.
[00:10:09] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It's interesting that we discovered the disassociation that people experience when they're experiencing trauma is personified by having the characters in our play talking about what happens. But it's embodied by The Accused, our puppet that we call The Accused. And so that was a very organic discovery that felt totally right. When we observed what that disassociation looked like on stage, it felt, like, oh my gosh, yes. It just felt really central to the whole premise of the piece. And we were working really quickly in conceiving and creating this piece. It was a beautiful discovery that felt completely in alignment with what we were trying to do with the piece.
[00:10:49] Meggie Greivell: And all of the audiences have been responding really strongly to all the puppets, and they understand the symbolism of The Accused immediately. [00:11:00] We've had really, really powerful responses about that and the familiar puppets as well.
[00:11:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So in the piece we have three different women who are called into what we call a liminal space, and when they get there, they are conjured into the space by the ensemble, and they are facing off with the pricker character. And in that space, The Accused appears. And so when the women are conjured and they are representing their own, this kind of core character, The Accused is with them.
[00:11:35] Meggie Greivell: The Accused represents all three of the women, but also each of them individually, as well.
[00:11:42] Josh Hutchinson: Can you talk about what pricking is?
[00:11:46] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: ah, pricking.
[00:11:47] Meggie Greivell: Yes.
[00:11:48] So pricking in Scotland during the Witch Craft Act, there were witch prickers who were employed to prick and torture the women. So there, there [00:12:00] actually were witch prickers. But the play also has a beautiful double entendre. Pricking symbolizes women being pricked with misogyny, as well.
[00:12:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So the witch picker would use an instrument or a tool to search for a spot on the woman's body that wouldn't bleed. Witch prickers weren't part of every single trial, but they came and went in the Scottish Witch Trials, and they were sometimes charlatans, brutal. Women would be shaved, stripped, and searched and pricked with an iron rod, looking for a place on their body that wouldn't bleed. And if it was found or falsely found, it was stated that was where the devil's mark was.
[00:12:47] Meggie Greivell: And they were paid very well to do this, and they're very respected in the community.
[00:12:55] Josh Hutchinson: I would say for our audience, a [00:13:00] similar thing happened when they would have a group of women, a jury of women search a female suspect the body looking for witches' teets. That's what they were looking for at Salem and other American trials, and they didn't use the torture method of pricking along, but if they found an insensitive place, sometimes they would stick a needle through it to see if it drained any fluid. And yeah, they would just check for insensitive locations that stood out as unusual.
[00:13:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: To think that a person would be touched in this way. And I, I think it's interesting that prickers in Scotland and the witch trials had their eras. It wasn't consistent throughout, but prickers would show up.
[00:13:57] One of the characters in our play, Marion Twedy [00:14:00] was pricked and actually that I found her in the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft database. And it so happens that she had two really interesting, compelling things about her case, one that she was pricked and one that she never confessed. But in her pricking, they did discover the devil's mark. We don't know what that was, but we know that she was pricked and that without a confession, the mark that was found on her was enough to end her life.
[00:14:31] Josh Hutchinson: Terrible. We, Sarah and I have ancestors who were examined that way in the Salem witch trials, not with the pricking but with the close inspection of their secret parts. And teets were found, and they said, "get some more experienced women over here." But for the pricking, it's just extremely invasive and misogynist to have a man doing that to a [00:15:00] woman. That just is so brutal. I can hardly imagine it.
[00:15:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The fact that sometimes the pricking instrument was a fake instrument that was enough to condemn a woman was that's not something we addressed in Prick. There was a lot I couldn't address just because the play is a one act play, but it did give a character a line, "you're pricking me now with every word," and to me that is that is the thread that Meggie was talking about earlier about the misogyny piece. Not every woman was pricked, but we all know what it feels like to be pricked in some way. And I'm not suggesting that the kind of pricking that these women underwent was in any way comparable to the pricks I felt in my life, because it's not the same, but that kind of image is resonant for all of us, I think.
[00:15:51] Sarah Jack: Absolutely.
[00:15:52] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I asked Madeline to create different size prickers, too, so that each character is met with an [00:16:00] instrument that gets bigger and bigger as the piece proceeds. So it starts out as a normal size, and then she plays with scale. So by the end, we see that this pricker is like the boogeyman is holding this pricker, and it's a little bit more universal.
[00:16:13] Josh Hutchinson: Such a powerful image.
[00:16:16] Madeline: And you just wonder at one point the person instigating or physically doing the harm disassociate themselves. So when we were like working through that piece in the show, that pricking object, like we just worked with the power that object held a bit, which was an, I dunno, it's just an interesting exercise, those elements and objects of torture.
[00:16:49] Josh Hutchinson: It's amazing to me that anybody made it through without confessing.
[00:16:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Zoe and Claire on the Witches of Scotland podcast, they talk about that a lot and [00:17:00] the whole thing about Scotland doesn't torture. It's like there was no torture in Scotland. It's just such a ridiculous thing to suggest that's not torture. I would've confessed for sure I wouldn't have been able to take that pain. That's how I think. Maybe I'm wrong, but.
[00:17:14] Meggie Greivell: And Marion Twedy, did you, I can't remember if you said this earlier, but the character, Marion, our play, she did not confess, and we have that in the play. She's one of the women who did not confess, which is just so unimaginable to think about that.
[00:17:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have cases where the interrogation itself was intimidating enough to get a confession without the added physical duress, and it's just a marvel to me that anybody got through that process and even lived to be tried.
[00:17:56] Sarah Jack: Does the play open with a strong start [00:18:00] or do you ease the audience into things?
[00:18:02] Meggie Greivell: I would say it opens with a strong start.
[00:18:05] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It opens with it well, some audience members have described it as a chant or an incantation. But it starts with a list of communities around Scotland and one of our actors, she's from the Isle of Skye, and she said, "oh, this sounds like a walking song," and she came up with the song to go along with it. So it comes across as this really beautiful kind of chant, and then it's followed by an incantation welcoming the women into the space.
[00:18:33] Meggie Greivell: It's a very haunting song. And we were using, Laurie wrote a heartbeat into the script and we organically discovered this, I found this very large stick at a store called Pound Savers, which is like the dollar store. And in the rehearsal room we discovered that it made a really great heartbeat sound, and that's in the song [00:19:00] and throughout the play, as well.
[00:19:02] But it's become a symbol as well for a broomstick, as well as other types of domestic things, like a butter churn. And we also learned this was a happy discovery, coincidence, but also works really well with the play that in Scotland, a lot of the ministers and commissioners that were involved in the trials, they used questioning sticks. In the opening song, it sounds almost like a sea shanty or like this haunting folk song. And Laurie's written all these really beautiful words and incorporated in the Scottish cities where the witch trials happened into the song.
[00:19:42] Josh Hutchinson: What stood out to me about the opening song is just how long the list of those cities is, the communities where witch trials happened. It's dozens of places.
[00:19:56] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And yet it's still not comprehensive, right? That was my fear. What did I leave [00:20:00] out? And even now as I'm talking about things that are happening, as I'm trying to wrap my mind about where things are happening in the world, I feel like, again, not comprehensive to understand where modern witch hunts are happening. Just everywhere yet in between is how I got through that as a writer.
[00:20:19] Meggie Greivell: And that's one of the lyrics in the song as well.
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: You talked about one of the women who's a victim who's in the play. Who are the other main characters whose story's being told?
[00:20:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The first is an unknown woman, which was very intentional. I was really struck by the sundry witches and all the people whose names are lost. And so she was really the first woman to be conjured in my mind and also to be conjured into this world of this play. And she doesn't know who she is, which is part of her journey.
[00:20:59] [00:21:00] She arrives in on the scene and is confused. She's come back, because she's looking for her baby, her bairn, and doesn't find her baby there. And she tries to leave, and they pull her back in. And we call her the unknown woman. She's an individual, but she represents many of the sundry witches who have no stone, no memorial, and no way of knowing who they are, erased by time.
[00:21:27] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie writes very beautifully into the unknown woman's language that she has no stone. That's a through line throughout all of her scene.
[00:21:39] Sarah Jack: So many elements of this work are just so incredible. I was so thrilled to see this aspect that you put into the story, because the unnamed, for the reasons that you just mentioned, but there's so many we don't know their name. You think about like with this specific [00:22:00] unnamed woman, she didn't know who she was. It's so striking, because before they're accused and examined, these women felt very confident, possibly some did, from testimonies you read, they're confident they're not a witch, they're confident that they're clear before God. And there's other historical unnamed individuals that are memorialized.
[00:22:26] And then I think of when we were working on our exoneration legislation in Connecticut this past year. There is an unnamed person in some records, but the politicians didn't include it in the final draft that individual who could have represented so many, who could have been a symbol for these women like your unnamed is, she was removed from that legislation, and that was so disappointing to me. I [00:23:00] am so thrilled to see that a part of your message.
[00:23:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's heartbreaking. The fact that we don't know who she was doesn't change the fact that she existed. I think this is what's so important about memorialization, too, is that marking someone's life acknowledges, it's like how we all wanna feel seen, right? I wanna feel seen. You wanna feel seen. To be unseen and to be invisible is another insult. And then for, I think for these women who were Christian women, to not be given a Christian burial, at least in their own understanding of the world as they know it, they're not seen in the world, in the afterlife, in the way that they wanted to be seen. That's an aspect for her, too, that she's stuck in purgatory or whatever it is, the liminal space.
[00:23:45] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie used the Scottish Witchcraft database to get information for the three accused women in the play. And we learned that there are thousands of unnamed in the [00:24:00] records here. So it's a lot really.
[00:24:04] Josh Hutchinson: I found the line in the play about the and sundry witches were killed so powerful, because it shows how little these women were valued. You don't even deserve to have a name, like you're just erased entirely.
[00:24:26] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I think we included the definition. Our version of this play has three men who play various roles, and then three women who play various roles, plus each having their own individual women. But the chorus of men says sundry witches confessed. And one of the women says, "sundry: definition, various items not important enough to be mentioned individually." And that's what it comes down to. It's you're not important enough for us to know who you were.
[00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Our listeners here will be familiar with a lot of the women who are just known as Goodwife or Goody, [00:25:00] because their first name, nobody bothered to record that. They just recorded that they were the wife of so-and-so and the man mattered, but the woman who was the actual target, her name didn't matter. So yeah, it's very moving.
[00:25:20] Sarah Jack: I also think it's a recognition of the modern victims that we're just getting to know. We know of such a small fraction of the individual cases. So here today, there are unnamed victims.
[00:25:36] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, and I think it's hard for people when you don't have a name or a story to attach to something to actually hang their understanding on what happened. If it's oh, this woman, this happened to this woman or these women, versus knowing the names of people who are going through this trauma, that's a completely different thing. It's like a personification in a way. [00:26:00] Sundry objectifies people. It makes them into just another witch, when it's an individual who has a story and a life and a history and a family and a living, breathing identity.
[00:26:11] Madeline: It is incredible the power that language has here in dehumanizing. That's actually like what my college thesis was about, our language and use of the words torture and terrorism around like torture tactics used, created by the US government, used in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. And dehumanization that happens to each of those individuals and the things that are defined as torture and those that are not, and those are, that are defined politically and have ramifications of teeth attached to them. It's really interesting what happens when certain words are attached to things and then a whole people become numb to the realities of what that means, of the people behind those [00:27:00] things, or the victims.
[00:27:00] Josh Hutchinson: And there's more than just the pricking in the play. There's also the watching, which was another form of torture. Can you talk to us a little about the watching?
[00:27:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's really interesting, because one of the things that we discovered in the writing of the piece was that the cast was really interested in kind of understanding what it meant to be watching, too. And you may have noticed that a character who is just a general farmer becomes a watcher, and he has this really beautiful arc throughout the piece.
[00:27:36] That's, those are his words. He was talking about how he felt about playing this role, that his character had an arc. He went from being an accuser to a watcher to the spouse of a victim and essentially a nonbeliever at the end in God or the devil. But that watching piece, people were paid to [00:28:00] watch women, keep them awake, keep them from falling asleep. Sleep deprivation was a a form of getting a confession, and they, the people who were, the women and their families were paying for the candles that the watchers were using. They were paying the salaries of the watchers. This is another weird aspect of the economics of it, is that it got turned back to the families at the end. You, this is your bill for what your witch costs our community.
[00:28:28] You were just asking about the watchers, but it's a bigger answer. We were really curious about what it was like to be responsible for inflicting this on someone else. Our watcher walks into the room and sees his wife in a witch's bridal, which was a way of keeping a woman awake, keeping her tongue from being able to talk and a terrible torture device. And that's bridal is on our puppet, the accused. And I think people respond to that in a way that's really shocked. [00:29:00] Even though you know it's not on a person. It's very evocative.
[00:29:04] Josh Hutchinson: So the watching we're talking about, you would sit a woman in the middle of a room and have somebody keep them awake for days on end, and they're looking to see if a familiar or imp comes to feed while they're watching, so the witnesses can confirm that the suspect has had a contract with the devil.
[00:29:33] And they did that also in England. Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General, is known for doing that. And there's at least one case in New England that's documented of Margaret Jones of Charlestown. She was watched in this way.
[00:29:49] But in your play, I know the characters are awake for untold hours and days, [00:30:00] and at that point, you're just delirious, and who knows what you're seeing even to get a confession out of you at that point, doesn't seem like it might be the most accurate confession that you're gonna get, but it's what they wanted to hear is what the person would say.
[00:30:18] Madeline: Important to note that in Scotland at the time, torture was illegal and known to produce inaccurate information. So there was that piece of recognition there, on the books in Scotland as the official way of the land. And then the reality of the witch trial.
[00:30:38] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And what do they say? It takes 48 hours before you start hallucinating when you're sleep deprived. Or I hope I'm getting that when I was just in Edinburgh last week, somebody was talking about that, that you are not a reliable witness after being awake for 48 hours. And there is records of a lot of these people being kept awake for days at a time, like you said.
[00:30:59] [00:31:00] I took the perspective that a person who was kept awake like this would do anything to make it stop. That is part of this piece, as you mentioned, but it's a thread that goes through every single trial that we read about the sleep deprivation.
[00:31:13] Meggie Greivell: And it was often the accused family members or friends or neighbors who were doing the watching, which I find like just so incredibly harrowing. That's with all of the witch trials. I know that was something that happened where neighbors had to be complacent, and that's the something that just really disturbs me so much, and I think Laurie wrote that so beautifully.
[00:31:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: These really small communities, everybody knows each other, right? They're accusing people they know, they're watching people they know, and they're executing people they know.
[00:31:49] Meggie Greivell: Yeah.
[00:31:51] Josh Hutchinson: And you do see that with the modern day witchcraft persecutions, as well. The [00:32:00] accusation often comes from within the family, and it's just so extra tragic that it's somebody that you know and you trust turns against you.
[00:32:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The third woman that's conjured into our space is probably the most famous of all the Scottish witches, Isobel Gowdie. And she was the last character to come to me. What we love about Isobel Gowdie is how much agency she has in her confessions, or seems to have in her confessions and what she means to people now, that she represents somebody with power.
[00:32:37] And as we were creating this piece, Meggie asked for a powerful character to come into the, this realm. And she was the obvious choice. I wanted to be really careful about how I present her, because I know she has so much meaning to so many people, right? And there's a lot that's unknown about her, [00:33:00] but her confessions are long and interesting and curious and awesome in a way.
[00:33:07] They're just such interesting documents, but we really don't know how she got to those confessions. We don't know if she was pricked or not. There was a pricker in the area, and yet there's no record of the pricker being part of her trial. There's nothing sure about whether she was watched or kept awake. We don't have that information, but we know what she said and it's so interesting. So she was fun to write, and she's, I think Lisa McIntyre, who plays her in this production, really enjoys the power and the fact that she's a bit of a baddy. She gets to speak truth to power and own her own story in a way that the other characters don't, Isobel.
[00:33:49] Meggie Greivell: Laurie and I talked about how we made the choice to give her power back because Laurie was saying, we don't, [00:34:00] nobody knows why she said all things that she said, or if it was really just the ministers and the investigators putting words into her mouth or making these things up or if it was from sleep deprivation.
[00:34:12] But we've made the decision to have her kind of take her power back and say, "no, I did do these things. I did turn into a jackdaw and attacked the pricker."
[00:34:24] Josh Hutchinson: What are some of the other things that she confessed to?
[00:34:28] Meggie Greivell: Part of it though, is she did turn into a lot of different animals.
[00:34:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: She did say she did a lot of shape shifting. So Isobel Gowdie, her confessions are pretty remarkable. She says things across a huge gamut, like she's confessed to mixing the body of an unchristian child with nail trimmings, grain, and colewort. I'm reading this right now from the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft, but she said she chopped it all up and used it to take away the fruit of a man's corn. Just think about that, [00:35:00] chopping up unchristian child with nail clippings.
[00:35:02] It's ah this flying in a straw broom was a thread that we see the witch on a straw broom. That was a, an Isobel Gowdie kind of a one of her biggies. She talked about elf shot. She would fly around and use elf shot, flick it with her thumb, and kill people to send a soul to heaven, but the body remained on Earth, according to her confessions. Talked about meeting the queen of the fairies, taking away milk, doing things in the devil's name. She said she um, destroyed, let's see, she made an image of the laird of Park to destroy his children, and she went into great detail about how she did this. She confessed a lot to shape changing jackdaws, cat, hare, and we really play with that shape changing aspect in our show. I could go on and on, but she's got a lot of really specific things. And she had four, I think four sets of interviews or [00:36:00] interrogations, and she got more and more specific with each one.
[00:36:02] Sarah Jack: I was thinking about some of the New England witch trials, and there's actually some of the afflicted girls either in Connecticut or in Massachusetts had very detailed accusations. I don't know if there's anything quite that detail coming out of New England in the record from an accused.
[00:36:24] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, incredibly detailed. She talked about her specific ritual acts, shape changing, using magic, things she did at the Kirk of Auldearn, communal sex with the devil. That was one. He had sex with her whole coven. And meeting and dancing with her coven. She talked about the fairies. She hit the greatest hits of everything. And she gave them all the information that they wanted to have.
[00:36:53] She explicitly said that the devil rebaptized her as Janet, that she had sex with him, [00:37:00] and that his member was great and long, and that younger women had greater pleasure in sex with the devil than with their own husbands. The idea of sex with the devil was really important to the Scottish witch trial confession logs that they would put together. And we also play with that a little bit in our show, that whole thing of this obsession with sex, which is fascinating to me, but also just strange.
[00:37:27] Sarah Jack: We learned of some of that this fall when we talked to Mary Craig, that was really where I was introduced to what a big part of that history it is.
[00:37:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Your interview with Mary Craig was one of my favorite interviews. She was a great resource.
[00:37:47] Sarah Jack: You had a couple lines that the devil said that I loved, and the first is, "I get the credit and I don't have to do any of the work." And [00:38:00] I also, I thought it sounded just like him to say, "I've been here a while. You were nay paying me mind."
[00:38:06] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was fun to write for the devil. It was fun to write that character. And I have to be reminded that for in this world, that the devil was absolutely real. The fact that I personally don't believe that the devil exists doesn't matter. These characters believed that the devil existed, and it was a great and real threat. And that's the first thing that when I'm talking to modern people about this play, that they're like, "oh, really?" But the devil was a threat.
[00:38:36] Josh Hutchinson: They didn't just believe in the devil. They believed that he was roaming around physically as a person and luring people over to his side to sign contracts with them, which I found interesting in the symbolism in Scotland of someone [00:39:00] becoming the devil's with the touching of the head and the foot. I found that to be very interesting also.
[00:39:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And claiming everything in between.
[00:39:10] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
[00:39:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I believe that was in Isobel's confession, as well, if I'm not mistaken.
[00:39:18] Josh Hutchinson: I think that I read that in that scene. Where she says she's be been baptized as Janet. Yeah. Which I love the Janet and Janet show, because those names, I've listened to all of Witches of Scotland, and Janet and Jonet just come up again and again in the Scottish witch trials.
[00:39:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, that's where I got that.
[00:39:43] And it was also a happy accident that our actor who plays Janet in the Janet and Janet scene plays Isobel Gowdie and says, "no, I am Janet. You'll call me Janet." And so that was just another kind of discovery of another added layer of something cool.
[00:39:58] Josh Hutchinson: Another [00:40:00] theme in there is the labeling of women as quarrelsome dames. And you took that from the reality.
[00:40:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: There was a lot to mine. And I think that as a woman of my time, I relate to that a lot. And as I get older and feel like, yeah, I'm gonna take up as much space as I want in this world, I see how some people respond to that. We take the quarrelsome dame mantle pretty proudly. Would you say Meggie?
[00:40:37] Meggie Greivell: Definitely, we are quarrelsome dames.
[00:40:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yay.
[00:40:42] Meggie Greivell: embrace it.
[00:40:43] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm so happy to hear that.
[00:40:46] Meggie Greivell: I think, yeah, as women, we've all experienced times where we've been told that we're too loud, too rude, too bossy, too something. That's an aspect right there that we still have [00:41:00] so far to come with in terms of misogyny. The accused women were called quarrelsome dames then, and now we're just called something else.
[00:41:09] Josh Hutchinson: Now we see a lot with women politicians still getting labeled as witch.
[00:41:16] Meggie Greivell: Yes, definitely like Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren and here in Scotland no, Nicole Sturgeon, the former Prime Minister of Scotland. She has been called a witch several times.
[00:41:33] Josh Hutchinson: I've seen some of that, and it's just very inappropriate. It feels like men feel threatened when a woman comes into her power and can't just share responsibilities with women. You gotta feel threatened. They're taking over your job or something, but they're not, so [00:42:00] chill out dudes.
[00:42:01] Meggie Greivell: Exactly. As a female director, I've encountered that over my career, as well, with being in a position of power in what is still male-dominated industry. Some pushback definitely.
[00:42:17] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It is interesting to write a piece that's like blatantly naming what most women agree is an experience of being responded to or being pricked by misogyny. It's interesting to encounter what that's like for an audience member who doesn't feel comfortable with that. I think that I'm comfortable with someone being uncomfortable with this piece.
[00:42:46] And part of the reason why I infuse comedy or dark comedy into a subject like this is because that's one way that I can acknowledge that this is a I, [00:43:00] we all know what we're seeing here, right? We know what we're seeing. We're getting what we're seeing here. And it's just a way of acknowledging something that but just putting it into a vessel of communicating that is not a victimized place. That's a more of a an owning the power of what it means to be having this conversation at all.
[00:43:25] Madeline: I think the way you wrote it, Laurie, with the kind of time shifts to the modern platform with like comedic elements allows us to take in the gravity of the reality of the situation. And I feel like in many ways, like comedy, is it the element of that is necessary in this piece. It's not like we're just diving into some disaster tourism situation, like we're getting into something that's relevant and related to now, and you give like those little plant the seeds so people are [00:44:00] making connections. So like why does addressing this thing that happened a long time ago matter now, and how is it still happening, and what are the ways that even in the same place, even in, how is that still showing up?
[00:44:14] Because all of those pieces are still very much alive. And then there are other places in the world where like the reality perhaps even looks similar. But there's also that piece where like this history is a part of our history. And yeah, I feel like it makes it more accessible in a way to have the juxtaposition of that, of the conversation going on, like within the piece.
[00:44:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Madeline, something you just said about the disaster aspect. Like I didn't, that's another thing I didn't want, I didn't want it to be torture porn. That's a terrible word, but I didn't want everybody, everyone to come and see a piece that lives in a place where women are being harmed for an hour or more.[00:45:00] That color and that kind of gut punch, that's not interesting, and it's abusive. It's an abusive thing to do. I wanted people to be able to come in and out of this space and our characters and their cast to be able to come in and out of this space, have a conversation that needs to be had, raise a voice that needs to be raised, and by the grace of something, let them exit that space and move, shift into something else.
[00:45:24] And that, again, was a discovery along the way. But I felt it was important to lean into that as it was unveiling itself to us in the process. And our cast is doing a great job of navigating the kind of different colors of this piece. It's hard to describe, though. It's hard to explain, a piece about witch trials that has comedy in it. It seems a little hard to explain, but.
[00:45:50] Meggie Greivell: The piece really does lift up all of the women and gives them their voice back. And I think that is the most powerful [00:46:00] part of this. And the last word in the play that Laurie wrote is, "and the rage." So we have that whole aspect of it. It's giving the voices back to these women.
[00:46:11] Madeline: Also wanna add that in the process, like the week that we were over there, Laurie and I were over there working with actors. She was like, "I want you guys to tap into this and then I want you to tap out, like physically, do hands up. Okay, I'm getting into this role. I'm putting this on for a moment. But we're not like doing this to each other. This is we're agreeing right now." There was just this like little element of consent exercise that happened, like for the actors. It was like this facilitated thing that was, it was just nice to come in and out like that as a cohort.
[00:46:44] Sarah Jack: I just think undertaking this topic as a visual and audible presentation. It is such a layered undertaking, just like the history is, and you used the word [00:47:00] unveiling. It's an opportunity to unveil what we can't get everybody to acknowledge. I just keep thinking about the complexity of the reality, but then also, when I was reading through the script, there's just, all, Meggie said the double entendres, and then the iconic symbolisms, and you even got an apple in there with the devil, and the catchphrases, but then the puppetry and everything about it was just, I think it's such a remarkable piece of art. And thanks for putting it out there. It's important. It's so important.
[00:47:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I really appreciate that. I was really nervous about kind of the tone shifts right out of the gate, and so I really appreciate that feedback. And if something didn't work, I would wanna know that too, right? Because I feel like this subject and these people and just the larger conversation needs to be right, [00:48:00] like the history needs to be correct. The level of respect needs to be correct, and I'm serving a bigger thing, which is why I'm so pleased to be working on this project.
[00:48:12] Sarah Jack: I was gonna add, too, that whole comedy element, it's in the history. There's so many times where we're looking at these dispositions or different things we can read that were happening or people were saying, and you just are like, this can't even be real. It's sadly hysterical, and so I think that's a really great thread to be able to weave in to the storytelling, too, like you did.
[00:48:37] Meggie Greivell: It was all so much about fake news being spread around, which Laurie has written that in so well into the play, as that's so relevant today.
[00:48:47] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Honestly it was my, weirdly my way into this piece, 'cause I would say, I don't know how I'm gonna get into this piece, I don't know what my way in, I don't know what my way in is. And then it was, fake news. I was like, that to me, that was the [00:49:00] hook that got me started writing in the first place.
[00:49:03] I typically write musical theater pieces, and so when it came to the monologues that the women were doing, I didn't really know what to do. So I said, okay, I'm gonna treat this like it's a lyric. And if I were writing a lyric, I would just be brain draining all of my ideas about things that could be in a lyric. And then I would take that kind of dump of writing and find kernels inside of it to craft into a lyric.
[00:49:27] But I approached it in that way and I realized, oh no, this is the same approach, like they are having this moment of expression that is simply for their a mining of their emotional life at this moment of time when they're being when they're being interrogated. And it It felt the same to me as a song moment where it was, we call it sometimes in, in crafting musicals, theater, in crafting songs, a vertical expression instead of a long horizontal line. It's what is your thought? We're gonna go deeply into [00:50:00] this thought. And for me, it had a lyrical element in working it. And I think that's what I love about working with the puppets, too, is that the puppets to me have a lyrical element, too, because their movement is so expressive, and it's like the actors are singing the puppets alive.
[00:50:18] Madeline: I'm curious now. I haven't seen the script in a long time and probably haven't seen the things until it was like puppet does something here. And then Laurie would come to me and be like, "so what can I do?" So it was fun, I was building even as we got to Scotland and was building the week that we had with the actors.
[00:50:38] I'm curious what it says now when you're reading it, Sarah, because I'm like, oh, that, like we developed those things together and like we didn't really know what it was capable of until we're like figuring out what it's capable of doing. Yeah, just a funny curiosity thinking like, how does that look on paper now?
[00:50:59] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I don't think I [00:51:00] changed it in the script. I think the script just says, "the fox comes through" or that, yeah. But to Madeline's point about working collaboratively, I knew who the cast was before I had written a word of the play. So I was setting this piece onto this cast, and I was writing for the actors that I had, which is a really a luxury when you're a playwright to be able to write for actors that you know who they are. It's the best case scenario, I think.
[00:51:25] Madeline built The Accused, this woman puppet, which is gorgeous. And she built a fox, a cat, a jackdaw, and then a flock of jackdaws, a flock of 13 jackdaws. And the script, it just says that they sweep through, and some actors use them throughout the entire play, and they're just beautiful.
[00:51:50] Sarah Jack: I wanted to give you guys the opportunity to read something from the script.
[00:51:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I'd love to. Would you like to hear the Unknown Woman or from [00:52:00] Marion Twedy?
[00:52:01] Josh Hutchinson: I vote for Unknown.
[00:52:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: This is an excerpt from the Unknown Woman. So in this monologue, by the time we get to this place, she's realized that there's no stone. No one knows who she is. She's been wiped off the face of the earth, for all practical purposes. She explains that she understands why she was accused, that she doesn't blame her accuser, but that she didn't do what she had been accused of.
[00:52:30] And she's completely vulnerable at this point. So we hear the crescendo of a heartbeat, and she's alone.
[00:52:40] "Let me die, I think. I will tell them whatever it is they want to hear. If only I can get some rest. Only, but there is no rest for the wicked, they say. Am I wicked? I was baptized. I'm a Christian. My bairn was baptized, had a Christian burial. [00:53:00] How did it come to this? I'll tell them whatever it is they want to hear, I'll tell them, yes, no, whatever I'm supposed to say to make this nightmare end so I can sleep, so I can hold my bairn again. But there is no rest for the wicked. Let me die, I think. I want to die. I think. I think I'm dead, for here I am here in this purgatory. Is this purgatory or is this someplace worse? Some kind of purgatory with no hope of escape? Is this hell? There's no rest here, no bairn, no breath. I do not lay in consecrated ground. I have no stone. Ah, that explains it. That explains why nobody visits me. Nobody comes to weep or laugh or make a pencil rub or write a poem or mark a holiday.[00:54:00] Will I my soul, will my soul ever be allowed to be at peace? Will I ever hold my bairn again? You damned me to an eternity of what, what you damned yourself, they said. How? How? I made a charm the way my mother taught me, the way her mother taught her, the way her mother taught her. They said I danced with the devil. If I did dance, that's all I did, dance. I don't know what I did. I don't know anything anymore."
[00:54:33] I didn't use Scottish dialect. I'm not gonna pretend to be Carys Turner, the beautiful performer who does that in our play.
[00:54:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much.
[00:54:44] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.
[00:54:46] Josh Hutchinson: Wonderful. I just want to talk for a moment about how people can see the play. Can you tell us about how it's playing right now and any future plans that you have?
[00:54:58] Meggie Greivell: Yes, so [00:55:00] it's right now we are on until the 25th at the Space on the Mile at 11:15 AM on odd days. We are hoping, really hoping, that it gets picked up for a tour in the UK and Scotland. We've had a few producers, so fingers crossed on that. And it will be filmed professionally on the 21st, so we will have it archived, and so we will have a film version of it, and we hope to bring it to the US, as well. Laurie hopes to bring it to the US, as well. So we just are right now, our fingers are just crossed that we can get it on a tour.
[00:55:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: If anybody's interested in reading the play to produce a version of it, feel free to reach out to me, and I'd be happy to send a copy of the script.
[00:55:50] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a powerful story that needs to be told. So I wish you all the best of luck getting it picked up for tours.[00:56:00] It's so good to give voices to the voiceless. So that's something that we want to do with the podcast, as well, is tell the stories of these people, even the unknown person that Sarah was talking about earlier, they need their story told. So I think you, I think that theater is an excellent way to introduce the story to audiences.
[00:56:29] Sarah Jack: Is there anything else you wanted to be able to express today?
[00:56:34] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The people who were prickers were individuals, and in our world they're represented by this kind of boogeyman character who's a pricker, not a specific individual.
[00:56:47] Meggie Greivell: And he represents all of the men of the time who are abusing their power.
[00:56:52] Madeline: I maybe wanna add that there was a lot of deliberation that kind of went into landing on doing one woman puppet, [00:57:00] and we talked about making specific puppets for each of the actresses, of their like particular faces, sculpting off of their pictures. And yeah, it was just a vibrant conversation and we landed on this, but in a way also just thinking about honoring the larger experience, I think landing on one woman.
[00:57:21] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I would say that people respond to seeing that one puppet as a very universal creation and see themselves in it. I the feedback that we've gotten from people is that was the right thing and that it really is very resonant. I also wanna say that this piece is still alive, right? So it was created super collaboratively and quickly and generously by all of the collaborators that were involved. Meggie brought the idea, Madeline was part of it from the very beginning, and the students gave us a lot of feedback in the process of writing. First time that they saw a script, it was just [00:58:00] the first 30 pages. That was the first time we said, "okay, how do we feel about these tone shifts? How do we feel about the fact that it moves through time and space?"
[00:58:09] And we were all in agreement. As I went forward writing pages for them about what that would look like, they would come back to me and say, "we wish that the devil would come back."
[00:58:21] "Okay, what does that look like?"
[00:58:23] "We wanna see King James again."
[00:58:25] "What does that look like?"
[00:58:26] "What if the watcher in the next scene is the farmer watching his wife?"
[00:58:30] "Oh, that's a great idea. Let me see what that looks like."
[00:58:32] So those, and it's still a new work and I suspect that the next production will have edits, like a new play does when it goes into another iteration. So I'm really excited to see how this play continues to grow. And I would say that if anybody does wanna do this piece, that they should hunt down Madeline Helling to work on the puppets with them.
[00:58:52] Madeline: Well, and I'll say too on that note, like there was a lot of changes. She'd be like, "oh, I met with the cast. So this whole part has changed." Like every [00:59:00] time there was like a Zoom, there was like both of you could attest that there were many changes that were made. So on my end I kept being like, "okay, you're not ready for that part, so I'm just gonna hold off or build this thing and then change it." And just given our time constraint and like what I needed to craft, it was like, okay, I'm just, I was just like crafting at a pace that went with the ebb and flow.
[00:59:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I'm just grateful to Meggie for having this idea and bringing it, she, she actually, when she first in invited me to this piece, she said, "I just got back from having dinner at The Witchery." There's this restaurant called The Witchery in Edinburgh. It's a fancy, beautiful restaurant, but she said it's a restaurant called The Witchery on the grounds, essentially of where the witches were burned. And that felt off to you, would you say, Meggie? That felt.
[00:59:50] Meggie Greivell: Yeah, that's how this all started. The first time I went to North Berwick too, when I'd never been there before, and I learned about the North Berwick witch [01:00:00] trials, and I was completely floored and disgusted. There was just a tiny little plaque in this old church by the sea about it, but nothing else.
[01:00:10] And then from there I kept getting even more enraged. Like Laurie said, I went to The Witchery and my family, and it's this beautiful restaurant with exquisite dining options. But yeah it's where the witches, the women were burned. Not the witches. The women, or the women were burned.
[01:00:29] And I also went on a tour, a ghost tour about a few months before I approached Laurie, and they pulled out thumbscrews that they, I replicated thumbscrews. I don't think they were real. And they took, were asking for volunteers to put them on, and I think they put them on me, and everyone was laughing and I was just disgusted this isn't funny but that's a problem with Edinburgh. It's very exploitative of the witch [01:01:00] trials and I know it's like that in Salem, as well. I just thought this is a story that needs to be told, and theater is what I do, so that is going to be the medium for it. And I reached out to Laurie on a whim, and I got lucky.
[01:01:18] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[01:01:22]
[01:01:29] Mary Bingham: Recently I suffered a situation which resulted in my feeling anxious, heartbroken, and most sadly not wanted. Luckily, I have a wonderful community of family, friends, and social services in which I can tap into if needed until I get back on my feet. I am grateful.
[01:01:49] This is not the situation for those women of Ghana accused of witchcraft. They are accused for causing sickness to their neighbors, weather [01:02:00] conditions to cause crop failures, among other things. Those women who are not beaten and burned alive for this crime they did not commit, were sent to one of six witch camps where their living situations were abhorrent at best.
[01:02:15] I cannot begin even to fathom their feelings of total abandonment and betrayal at the hands of their neighbors and family members. Yes, family members. I shouldn't complain. I will survive. Some of these women will not, but there is hope. In 2005, ActionAid started to infiltrate these camps with basic life necessities. The advocates also educated these women and children, informing the women of their rights. In 2011, the women were thus able to stop the Ghana government from closing the camps the following year. Quick closure could result in homelessness [01:03:00] and possibly death by those wanting these innocent human beings dead. They spoke loud and strong using every media and social service at their disposal, increasing benefits for themselves to survive.
[01:03:15] For me, I look forward to the day when my living situation improves. However, I look more towards these women who survive circumstances I will never understand. They are the heroes along with the advocates who risk their lives to save the many for whom they advocate. Thank you.
[01:03:34]
[01:03:42] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:03:43] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[01:03:47]
[01:03:53] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. We must continue to educate [01:04:00] against witch-hunt behavior and provide communities with the resources to feel safe together and to work together. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
[01:04:14] Today, the victims of sorcery accusation related violence must not be nameless and disregarded. We may not know the names of men and women who were attacked today, but we know what is happening. We can speak about their stories and their innocence. We can continue to educate the world about which hunting today. We can acknowledge the crisis. Know that the victims have names, that they have lives, that they have plans, that they want their beautiful tomorrow. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors in which attacks, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
[01:04:46] I am descended from two well-known accused witches, one whose name was used in the iconic play of The Crucible by Arthur Miller. Rebecca Nurse is a name that is familiar with everyone who knows even a little about the Salem witchcraft trials. She said on the record, the [01:05:00] world will know my innocence. We do know her innocence, and we can name her as innocent by name. Rebecca Nurse
[01:05:06] was not a witch. Some of the trials on record have accused identified only by their husband's surname as Goodwife or Goody. Goody Knapp, Goodwife Bassett. We do not know the given name of these women, but we do know that they were innocent of causing supernatural harm. Goody Knapp and Goodwife Bassett were not witches.
[01:05:24] In the American colonies, we have primary sources indicating that at least one unknown person was accused of witchcraft crimes in Connecticut. Unknown was not a witch. Unknown was innocent. Although some names are recorded, the names of thousands of other imprisoned and executed alleged witch across Scotland are unknown. They were innocent. They were not witches.
[01:05:45] When we hear the name of Rebecca Nurse, Marion Twedy, and Isobel Gowdie or other named, executed witch trial victims, may we always see their unnamed sisters, the unknown victims standing there with them in history, unforgotten. Today, 70 years after The Crucible, [01:06:00] the play Prick is memorializing the thousands of women who suffered and died as unnamed alleged witches. This play recognizes them. It is a memorial to the unknown. We must remember them. Thank you, Prick, for honoring their memory in a significant and beautiful way, and for educating the world about witch trials through creative art.
[01:06:18] You are part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. Your listening and support is part of the work that keeps the critical conversation on ending witch hunts alive and expanding. When you share episodes with your friends, you are making an effort against violence. Having conversations about what is going on is an easy way that you can jump in to end witch hunts. Advocates worldwide are using their particular abilities, influence, and social network. And when you also listen and share, you are part of strengthening that network. It takes every mind, every voice, every small effort. You are a part of the world network that succeeds because of collaboration and collective efforts. When you speak up about sorcery accusation related violence, you will get questions [01:07:00] about the issue. Questions regarding violence against alleged witches can be scary, but we have your back. Not only have you garnered the answers by listening to the conversations on Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast, you can direct anyone to the program for more information. You can reach out to us with your questions and comments anytime. We are on all social media platforms and have a contact form on our website. Let us know how the conversation is going for you in your sphere of influence. We want to know. Reach out.
[01:07:26] Visiting our websites and the advocate websites listed in our show notes often is another way to stay up to date and support the work. To support us, make a tax deductible donation at endwitchhunts.org. Your support funds are witch trial history and advocacy education projects. You can purchase most of the books discussed on Thou Shalt Not Suffer episodes in our online bookshop, or you can buy it directly from the guest. We sell End Witch Hunts, Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast t-shirts and coffee mugs online in our zazzle.com shop. Make a purchase to support us.
[01:07:59] Have you [01:08:00] considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining other listeners as a super listener? Thank you for adding our Super Listener program to the way you support us. Your super listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you.
[01:08:13]
[01:08:19] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:08:21] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:08:22] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:08:28] Sarah Jack: Join us next week for another important episode.
[01:08:31] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:08:34] Sarah Jack: I hope you're visiting us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[01:08:42] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:08:48] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:08:51] [01:09:00]
Meet author Janice C. Thompson. Her debut historical novel, Dry Tinder tells the story of Sarah Towne, aka Sarah Cloyce. We share an interesting conversation with Janice about the book, the characters, the meaning behind the title and the founding of Framingham, Massachusetts. She shares her experiences researching and writing historical fiction and self publishing. You will sense her love for local history and fascinating, character-driven stories as we discuss Salem Witch Trial events and individuals. Drawing from her metaphor of a tinder box ready for a spark, we address reasons why we witch hunt, how we witch hunt and how we stop hunting witches. Dry Tinder is out now, order your copy today. Purchasing link is below.
[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is Janice C. Thompson, author of the historical novel Dry Tinder: A Tale of Rivalry and Injustice in Salem Village.
[00:00:37] Sarah Jack: Dry Tinder is a chance to step back in time and use your imagination to be with the Towne family and their experiences.
[00:00:49] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. We're gonna learn about the Towne Sisters.
[00:00:53] Sarah Jack: Learn about the daughters of William and Joanna Towne, Rebecca, Mary, and Sarah.
[00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: Especially Sarah. We'll also learn about the Putnam's and Thomas Danforth.
[00:01:09] Sarah Jack: A magistrate we don't often hear of or talk about.
[00:01:13] Josh Hutchinson: Who was at the examination of Sarah Cloyce, the protagonist of Dry Tinder.
[00:01:22] Sarah Jack: And who also founded the town that some of the refugees from the Salem Witch Trials reestablish themselves in.
[00:01:31] Josh Hutchinson: We learn about the founding of Framingham, Massachusetts, where Sarah Cloyce and her husband Peter settled after the Salem Witch trials and changed their last name to Clayes.
[00:01:46] Sarah Jack: There isn't much there historically to tell the story, but there is a road named Salem End Lane.
[00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: And one thing that we keep encountering is just how much people care about the legacy of the Towne sisters, even people with no relation. And we know that there are quite a lot of descendants. The Towne Family Association is very active and regularly does trips back to Salem and Framingham.
[00:02:22] Sarah Jack: Yes, there are individuals who have contributed to the preservation of the history, the physical history of the Towne family, as well as, making sure the story is told.
[00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: One thing that really interested me in this interview, as a writer, is we got to talk to Janice about her experience as a first time author and first time writing a historical fiction work and the challenges involved in that and the self-publishing process.
[00:03:02] Sarah Jack: And now you get to hear from her, Janice Thompson, a writer and also the co-founder of Harpswell News in Harpswell, Maine. She's a lover of local history and fascinating character-driven stories. Her first novel, Dry Tinder, is based on the true story of the Towne sisters-- three innocent, godly women falsely accused of witchcraft in 1692. As told through the perspective of Sarah Towne, the story becomes personal.
[00:03:28] Josh Hutchinson: Can you tell us a little bit about your background?
[00:03:32] Janice C Thompson: Sure. First I have no relation to the Towne family, to my characters. People are thinking, they call me cousin, the Towne family descendants, which is cute.
[00:03:43] Josh Hutchinson: I just wanted to mention that Sarah and I are both Towne descendants.
[00:03:48] Janice C Thompson: Oh, nice.
[00:03:49] Josh Hutchinson: I'm a Mary Esty, and she's Mary and Rebecca.
[00:03:53] Janice C Thompson: Okay. Wonderful. Well, A lot of people are, and I thought, why am I so obsessed with this story? So I actually, I did that genealogical. I'm like, I must, this blood must be in me. But it's not, but I feel like I'm an honorary Towne at this point
[00:04:11] Sarah Jack: I love that. There tends to be this draw and protection towards those sisters from even outside the family. And it always means a lot to me to see that. I think that's really amazing.
[00:04:25] Janice C Thompson: I play in the local concert band. I play trombone. And there is a Nurse in the band, and I gave her the book at the end of the rehearsal last week, and I was in tears. I'm like, "you really need to have this book." So it's meaningful to me, too.
[00:04:42] Josh Hutchinson: You said you've been working on this book for 20 years. How did you come to write this?
[00:04:47] Janice C Thompson: In 2004, my then husband and my two year old child moved into a home in Ashland, Massachusetts, which is about 25 miles directly west of Boston. It's a bedroom community for Boston, a commuter town. And it abuts, it's right next door to Framingham. Most people know of Framingham, not Ashland. It's between Framingham and Hopkinton. Hopkinton is where the Boston Marathon starts, so people know that and they know Framingham.
But anyway, one of the things that really sold us on this house is that it abutted 800 acres of conservation forest with marked trails. Actually, there was a trailhead, like a trail spur that went right into our yard. So we'd often see people come out, they're like, oh, we shouldn't be here. But anyway, just very quickly, after we bought the house, some neighbors came over and we had some coffee, and they said, "oh, have you been to the witch caves out back your house?" And I said, "I don't know what that is." And they said, "oh, yes, it's, the witches escaped from Salem during the trials, and that's where they lived. They hid out in those caves." And I'm thinking, "that's weird because I'm 30 miles southwest of Salem and Salem Village, Danvers, and why would they do that? That seems really weird."
So I looked into it thinking that it was probably an urban legend. Come to find out there was some truth to it, that the story goes that Thomas Danforth, who was the deputy governor the year before, during the trials, good friends with Samuel Sewell, oversaw Sarah's initial examination. This was before the Court of Oyer and Terminer. He oversaw this and put her in jail. And as we all know, Mary and Rebecca were hanged, and Sarah survived just because it was good timing, as we know how.
Anyway, so she was let go, and then the next thing, she and her extended family, so there were some Bridges and there were some Nurses and there all the names that we know left Salem Village and they settled this wilderness to the west of Boston that was owned, these acres, thousands of acres were owned by Thomas Danforth. They had been granted to him by the colony, but he was the treasurer of Harvard. So he was always a Cambridge man. He never settled the lands. So these people came, and they settled the place. They built a meeting house, they had a burying ground, and they ended up incorporating the town of Framingham in 1700. And they called it Framingham because Thomas Danforth was from Framlingham in England. I also found out that these people had built their homes and farms along a road that still exists that's called Salem End Road. And that's the reason why, because they were from Salem.
[00:07:50] Sarah Jack: Is there anything about the experience of writing a first book that you would like to share? What that is like?
[00:08:01] Janice C Thompson: It's really hard. It's harder than I thought. And part of it is because I really wanted it to be authentic. I'm a reader. I love historical fiction. And what my pet peeve is that someone might say, oh, I'm gonna set this story in New York City in the 1880s, say, and then the characters all speak like we do. And you don't really get that sense of place and time. And so I really wanted to be authentic. And as you might have seen in the appendices, I did take liberties with some of the characters just because I can't write about people having 12 kids and having 12 characters. You know, I just can't do that.
It was hard, because I was struggling with the truth of it but also having a book that people wanted to read that was accessible. I remember showing it to Margo early on, and she said, "Janice you can't have your characters talk like they actually did, because it's very off-putting, it's not accessible."
And then I was also trying to figure out, like we have, we're in the 21st century. We have this cultural and social perspective as a result of being in the modern society. And I count myself as a feminist and I fight the man and all of that. But if you are in, if you're Sarah and Mary and Rebecca, and you're in that society in that time, would you even question anything?
Now we know in the fifties and sixties women were starting to say, "no, I don't wanna, I don't like this. I don't, I wanna live a different kind of life. I'm unhappy. I'm unfulfilled." But if you're out 300 plus years ago, and you're in the wilderness, and you don't know if you're gonna make it through the winter, and you are also in this very patriarchal society, would you even complain?
So I really wanted Sarah to be this rebel. But I also wanted it to be authentic. So I was really trying to add more nuance to all of their characters, because nothing in this story, as you probably know, is black and white. A lot of people say, "oh yeah, these girls were evil." I think that they would have PTSD, and they were suffering too. It's not black and white. And you see that all the time in movies and plays, and I just didn't wanna write that kind of book. And I also really wanted to set it up, this context, starting 20 years before that sets up this tinderbox.
And that's actually one of the reasons why I self-published, because the literary agents who were interested in the story said, "I'll take this on, but you have to cut out everything except for just the drama of what happened in 1692. That's what people wanna read. And it has to be accessible. It has to be mass marketed. It has to, you have to sell a lot of copies."
I would love for this to be a bestseller, of course, but I also wanted to write the story I wanted to write. So it was very difficult to say to these professionals, "I think I know better about my book than you do," especially as a first author with a first book. Who am I to do that? So yeah, it was fraught. It was really fraught. I'm starting to write another story that was like set in the nineties in Boston. That's not historic at all. That is so easy. You just say, woo. "What do I want my character to say right now?" It's like I could just make it up. But here I didn't wanna do it, so it was hard, and I don't think I'm ever gonna do it again, not this kind of story. Because I just was so engrossed with it, loved it all, but yeah ready to get it out there into the world.
[00:11:50] Josh Hutchinson: I can relate to a lot of that. I started writing my first novel towards the end of 2008, and I haven't got it ready for publishing yet. Other things keep happening and
[00:12:05] Janice C Thompson: Oh yeah.
[00:12:06] Josh Hutchinson: then you've gotta start over.
[00:12:08] Janice C Thompson: That was one of the issues too, 'cause I've always had to have a full-time job. And I have this notebook this thick with my notes, but you're right. You let it go, and then you have to start all over again. You have to say, "who are these characters? I have forgotten."
And then you get really into it, but then life happens, and you can't focus on it anymore. So that's the reason why I really didn't wanna work at a day job. I wanted to just get to it. That didn't happen. Since we've been up here, I haven't had a full-time job, so I did have more time to focus on it.
[00:12:41] Josh Hutchinson: That's great, and I'm glad that you did it. And I really like the attention to detail in there. And you talked about, you started the story 20 years beforehand to give the background and I think that's so important, because a lot of people just don't understand why the Salem Witch Trials happened.
[00:13:04] Janice C Thompson: Yes.
[00:13:05] Josh Hutchinson: They try to look at things like Margo's favorite thing, that ergot, and it's not that simple.
[00:13:10] Janice C Thompson: love to be in the room when someone asks her about that, because she's very good at hiding her disdain as she responds to that. But yes, and I also find that, in the various depictions and throughout the ages, it's like, it's an anomaly. It just happened and it was mysterious and, yeah, maybe there was poisoning, we don't quite know. But, and then it just disappeared into thin air.
The whole cover of the book is the map of this disputed territory. I actually started it 40 years before, but I did have to cut it down a little bit. And I focused in the original version, I focused more on that boundary dispute, but, I remember it was Marilynne who said, and she read the beginning of it too. And she said, "Janice, you and I are fascinated by this sort of stuff, but it gets very complicated, and I don't think a lot of people would like to know this much detail." So that was one big edit that I did. I cut out like maybe 50 pages. That was painful 'cause I liked the 50 pages, but I did want people to get engaged in it right off the bat.
And so when I had this scene come into my head, and it was very clear to me, a nice spring day, Sarah's walking along the river with a baby. And once that hit, once that got into my head, I'm like, okay, this is where I'm going to start. But yeah, it was difficult. And also if my eighth grade creative writing teacher could hear you, that would be very lovely because I just remember he used to say details, throw in the details, make the reader feel and hear what these characters are doing. So I learned that in eighth grade.
[00:15:01] Sarah Jack: As a descendant and a, possibly because I'm a female as well, the beginning really did pull me in a very nostalgic way, because you meet Sarah first, her motherhood, she's by herself looking for a little wiggle room from the what's pressing in on the women in that society, just in her own outfit and her hair. And then I got to listen to her and her sisters have a conversation in a kitchen. How amazing was that? I was so fascinated. I loved that I could picture Rebecca, Rebecca taking Hannah, Mary working, Sarah trying to relax from the situation that had just happened with her beverage. I just loved it.
[00:15:50] Janice C Thompson: Oh, thank you. I myself have four sisters. I'm in the middle, like Sarah, and this is probably one of the, one of the reasons why I resonated with her, because I'm very close with my sisters. We're a very tight-knit family, and they're a lot different than I am. For example, they're very religious and I'm not, so I was inhabiting Sarah at that point when she said, "why can't I be more like my sisters?" That's an experience that I've had for a very long time. So you have to walk that line between intense love and devotion and frustration, and that's what I wanted to bring out and even in that initial conversation, because Sarah was getting annoyed with them, when they chastised her for taking off her cap.
[00:16:39] Josh Hutchinson: That whole episode with the cap is so indicative of the kind of details that you put in there that really ground people in the time. So I think it was very important how you give a subtle explainer of what life is like in the 17th century for women without just doing a big data dump.
[00:17:03] Janice C Thompson: Well, and that's why these resources were so helpful. Like I have books, you probably saw in the bibliography, I think there were a hundred listings there, but some of them were like life in the Colony in the 1600s and that's what I really wanted to see. I really wanted to find out.
You know how they have those huge fireplaces with the iron thing across it that they hung pots from? I didn't know what that was called, and I didn't wanna say, oh, that iron thing that goes across, so I did a little bit quick research, and it's a crane, it's called a crane. So I'm like, "and so Sarah hung this pot on the crane." And for example, like how did they get around? Did they have a wagon? Did they have to hire a wagon? Did they have horses?
Going up to the Rebecca nurse homestead and just being able to sit there and absorb that house, which we're so lucky that it's still there. All of those resources were enormously helpful. And it was fun. I used to like it. It's, "oh, I don't know that. So let's do a little bit of Google research and figure it out." At one point they're doing like, I was wondering about games, for example, did they even have games? And then I learned about this glyphs that it's like the tongue twisters that we have, that was a, that was like what they did in the 1500s. And so I want all of those things I wanted to add into it to just add layers to it.
[00:18:34] Josh Hutchinson: It gets you into the world, so you see what the characters are experiencing, what they're up against, and yeah, it's very helpful. So you mentioned that you start the novel early. What years does the novel cover?
[00:18:50] Janice C Thompson: It starts 22 years before, so that was 1670. So that was just about the time when William died. And then I play up the whole thing about Joanna being thought of as a witch and it was known that witchcraft it would go from mother to daughter. And I was thinking what was that about?
Some scholar had traced that actual scene about when the minister drinks too much ale and that went to trial, and so when, in my book, when they're at trial, some of that is lifted verbatim from that transcript of that particular trial. That's one of the things that I then grabbed onto. It's okay, I wanna make Joanna be a rebel as well, but I wanna also explain whether, if people thought that she was a witch, why didn't she get arrested for it?
And in my book, it's because she went inward and she's I'm not gonna deal with anybody anymore because I'm so upset. So I wanted to bring that out. But William had died, and so I figured maybe she went a little bit bonkers in grief, maybe she changed her own personality because now he's gone. And I envisioned that he was a, an evening factor for her but without him she didn't know how to act anymore. So I wanted to bring that in. So I started at 20, in 1670 when, so Sarah is married to Edmund Bridges, and she has just had her first baby, Hannah.
[00:20:38] Sarah Jack: I think that is a really relatable time in a family's life that people can connect with. When the head of a family is gone, it's a huge adjustment for the widow, for the descendants. So that would've already started a transition in their lives.
[00:21:01] Janice C Thompson: yeah. I was trying to trace all of the, that went down through the years, the uncertainty and the fear, and when people live in that kind of environment, which by the way we're living in today, people make bad decisions, and they act out of fear. And yes, you're absolutely right, when it's this close-knit family and the patriarch has died.
And I think of this family, this extended family, as a very close family that's a little bit different than other families, because they just kept having babies because they needed to people to till the fields and all of that. Children were seen and not heard. But I envisioned the Towne family as somewhat different than that. Again, totally fabricated. This is the fiction part, that how do they do that and still be in this very rigid society? But I do think that William's dying was a catalyst for at least Joanna getting into trouble.
[00:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: And I wanted to ask what's the significance of the title, Dry Tinder?
[00:22:12] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. When that, it's funny because whenever I do marketing all the time, and so I'm always thinking of designs and headlines and when we do an appeal for the annual fund, or we're doing this kind of brochure or we're doing this e-blast and whatever, and usually my creative process with that is it just comes to me. It'll just, like, all of a sudden I'll be like, "okay, I want this." We're working on a booklet now. It's a tasting book for an event that I'm doing. And it's okay, I know what it's supposed to be. Throughout the entire writing of this book, the title wasn't coming to me. And I always said, it doesn't matter, because I'm so far away from publication that I don't care.
But when I thought of Dry Tinder about a year ago, and I, it really caught on because I'm trying to describe a tinder box. So in the appendices, I say something like a carelessly lit match to dry tinder, the conflagration that follows is not a surprise. So that's where it came from.
That said, I had to struggle with it, because one of the many misconceptions about this story is that these people were burned at the stake, and Dry Tinder connotes that. But I was so married to the title that I just decided to do it anyway.
[00:23:36] Josh Hutchinson: I think it's apt for the way that the conflagration of the witch trials happened. Starts with little spark and then it just, the flames fan out everywhere.
[00:23:50] Janice C Thompson: And I tried to pepper the whole thing with oh, she, the anger that ran through her felt a flame or I tried to bring that theme in a couple of little, a little places. But yeah, I do think that that's the thing that fascinated me the most, because I've been fascinated with this story for whatever reason my whole life.
And so when I started doing that research, I researched it back to England in the 1620s. In the beginning, I even had like backstories about William and Joanna when they were just meeting in their church, and because I kept going back, and I kept going, 'cause I can see the thread, but I just figured I have to stop somewhere.
In fact, I'm not gonna do this, but it would be fun to to do a prequel to about William and Joanna and where they came from. The whole Thomas Danforth, I cut 50 pages outta that backstory. I had the whole thing about how he grew up in in Framlingham and about his parents and all of this. So there is more on the cutting room floor than is in the book right now.
So that's the thing that fascinated me. It's duh, I could've, in hindsight you could see, yeah, something's gonna happen in this society that's not gonna be fun. Makes me worry about today, I have to say. Like, where is this all gonna lead to?
I was actually not as interested. The trials were like the same. Every single one was the same. They'd say, "oh, why are you hurting this girl?" "I'm not." "Obviously you are." It, how many times can you write that? How many times can you write it so that it's different every time?
That's the reason why I didn't go into the three trials, 'cause they were the same. Some of it had some twists. Like Rebecca, they said she was fine, she was innocent, and then they said, no, go back and try again. So there were little things that were different. But I really didn't, I didn't wanna write that. It bored me.
[00:25:49] Josh Hutchinson: We've talked about the Towne sisters. Who were some of the other main characters?
[00:25:57] Janice C Thompson: The, so they're the sisters, and then of course there's the Putnam clan. And I set it up, even though we know there are a lot of other people who were living there, I set it up as a rivalry between the Townes and the Putnams and who were their fans or their friends or whatever. So those were the main characters.
But then, and this was another choice too, I really wanted to write about Thomas Danforth and Samuel Sewell, because I know that Samuel Sewell is famous. You could read the apology that he's famous for giving a public apology many years later. In fact, I used to work at the Boston Athenaeum, which is right across the street from the State House, and you can see a portrait, a painting of Samuel Sewell in the State House giving that apology.
I was so intrigued with what I first found out about, like, why did Thomas Danforth invite this family? I really wanted to talk about Danforth. There's not a lot written about him. And when I was at the Athenaeum, I remember talking to the curator of paintings and sculpture, and he looked into it and he said, "yeah, Thomas Danforth doesn't have a formal portrait done," which is very unusual for magistrates at that time. That's an interesting little tidbit. We hear about Cotton Mather, we hear about Samuel Sewell, but we don't hear that much about Danforth. But he was right there. So I brought him in halfway through and the ministers, and that was another part that that's based on reality that these ministers and these magistrates actually went back and used the Bible, passages in the Bible, to belie the thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
So I just love that sort of intellectual exercise of these ministers. They had a fine line to walk, because they believed in evil, in the devil, in witchcraft, but then they thought maybe that's not happening here, and that's a cognitive dissonance there. So how did they make that dissonance go away? And they did it through biblical texts. So I really wanted to bring those in, those people in, too. I just thought that was interesting.
So there were the Boston contingent, the Boston and Cambridge contingent, the power structure. And then it was these poor people in this little village. So those were my main characters.
[00:28:25] Josh Hutchinson: Which makes me think of your appendices. You also have bios in there for the characters, so something people can refer to as they're reading.
[00:28:38] Janice C Thompson: Because I've talked to the people like Margo and Marilynne and Tad Baker and Bernie Rosenthal. I didn't want them to poo poo like to say, ugh, this is just fiction and whatever. So I figured I would bring it up in the appendices about the difference between this story and what was real. Like a beef that I have with The Crucible is that Arthur Miller names that hanging judge, who we know is William Stoughton. He named him Thomas Danforth. And so now a lot of people, they think it's, oh yes, Thomas Danforth was the hanging judge. And that's what happens when you write fiction. People don't understand that it's fiction. So I just wanted to underscore that I want to have some creative license, but I also don't want to perpetuate lies. So that's why I thought it was important to put that in.
[00:29:38] Sarah Jack: I think it's so great because we need that creative license. It's a teaching mechanism too, and, but people do need to learn to be able to recognize and do their own look into the history. We want people to have that critical thinking that they can enjoy historical fiction but not get confused, and we have to teach them that. And your book is a great example of how it can be done.
[00:30:11] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. Marilynne's book, the Six Women of Salem, does it very well, too, because she does that like those beginning chapters. She would just come up with a scene of, Rebecca was, carrying the water, whatever. You can breathe life into these characters.
We don't really know how they work, but we have some evidence, through transcripts and all of that. I just want it to be true to the story, but not mislead. The Crucible thing, Margo talks about this too, that, John Proctor was supposedly having an affair with Abigail. It was not Daniel Day Lewis, that was not John Proctor. So yeah, that was important to me.
[00:30:52] Josh Hutchinson: People do get some wrong ideas from historical fiction, interpreting it as history when you know you have to have that creative license, because we don't have a hundred percent of the details of these people's lives. So of course you've got to connect the dots and fill in the blanks.
[00:31:15] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.
[00:31:18] Sarah Jack: What would you like readers to take away from your book?
[00:31:21] Janice C Thompson: That's a good question. If I look at it from a macro level, I think that I would like for people to think about what ignorance and fear and uncertainty can do to a community. And again, I'm looking through my current day eyes, because we have to really be careful. It could easily happen today.
On a more personal level, at the sort of coming down from 30,000 feet, I want people to fall in love with these sisters. I want them to think, "I wish I had those sisters," and I want people to understand how, again, things are not black and white sometimes, and it's important to just remember that. And I just, I want people to really enjoy it, too. It's hard when you're into a story that's based on research to write something that would actually be enjoyable and it's not gonna be like a history lesson. I want people to not be able to put this book down. And a number of people have told me that, and that's what I want. I'm not doing this to get rich.
[00:32:42] Josh Hutchinson: People are drawn in to Salem with this kind of glamorous, romanticized view of everything, and it's just so important once they're drawn in to make sure that they're leaving with the right lessons.
[00:32:58] Janice C Thompson: But my book, it is pretty serious. I was at a book signing here locally yesterday, and it Harpswell is a very touristy place. It's a tiny little town, but it doubles in population with our summer residents and then tourist, because it's beautiful. It's like a postcard. So I was at one of these gift shops with all the tourists, and somebody said, "why would I wanna read this book? It's so sad. It's so down." I said, "yeah, but it's okay 'cause you'll be dazzled with my writing style. So that'll even out the subject matter." Yeah.
[00:33:34] Josh Hutchinson: There you go.
[00:33:36] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. And the thing is, too, there is redemption with Thomas Danforth saying, "I apologize." But it is sad, because I think she lost her religion. And it would be nice to say that everyone lived happily ever after, but they didn't. They changed their name to Clayes when they went to Framingham, and the story is that she never left the house, that she became housebound, because she couldn't deal with people and she's, we think that she's in the burying ground. It's 1704 and then it just says S. So she didn't, even if she's even buried there, she didn't want anybody to come visit her. So that's a really sad story. These families were destroyed.
I'm hoping that sort of scene with a redemption with Thomas Danforth will be enough of a Oh, okay. Okay. There's some little bright spot at the end, and it's just that it's not that everybody just died and everybody was sad and, yeah, but she only lived like another 10 years. She didn't live very long in Framingham.
[00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: And I know she must have suffered in jail and losing her sisters. The suffering must have been so intense. I can understand why you might be reclusive and not wanna go out where people might accuse you again.
[00:35:08] Janice C Thompson: Yes. Yes. Yes, that's what I imagine. Do you know the book, Currents of Malice? It's about Mary, but it's about the whole family. And there are some chapters in the end where the families, the surviving members of the families were trying to get Parris out. They were trying to get recompense, they were trying to get retribution.
And Peter was part of that, but he left, the other, they said, "oh, he's left the area." And I imagine that must've been difficult for him, too, because, yeah, you want to be there, you wanna get revenge, you wanna, but then who wants to be in this community? Who you thought was your close knit? You thought they were your family, family in Christ, and who would just turn on you? And then there was no repercussion. Like these people, the accusers were never brought to trial. They just went away, or they just stayed there. There was no retribution.
I can understand. You just wanna get out of dodge and try to forget it. She was also devastated, and I could understand why she would never wanna go outta the house.
[00:36:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we, when we talked to Rachel Christ-Doane, we were talking to her about Dorothy Good's life after the trials and how tragic a story that continued to be. And I think that was sadly the way it was for so many of the families and individuals. How do you just go back to normal life after that?
[00:36:42] Janice C Thompson: One of the things that was very inspiring was that PBS Three Sovereigns for Sarah. And I thought it was interesting, because at the end they were talking about, what happened to different people, and those girls did not live good lives afterward. They were pretty tragic.
And it also supports the theory that they had PTSD. And I imagine, once the hysteria died down, knowing that you just accused these people probably added to the trauma. Because a lot of them didn't have families. A lot of them were refugees. They were maids. They didn't have any agency at all.
[00:37:23] Sarah Jack: I think about the young age of some of the afflicted and even the ones that were women but young. And then you look at the timeline of when hangings ended, with witch accusations, did these girls, women ever look back and think there were adults overseeing what was going on? I don't know. It wasn't like they grew up and then they continued to be part of hanging witches for the rest of their lives.
[00:37:50] Janice C Thompson: I think that they were sorely manipulated by their parents. That's why I have the scene where the girls are upstairs and they're hearing downstairs the conversation about Rebecca, and then all of a sudden Rebecca's being called out on. I do think that was probably part of it.
And again, there was no sort of social safety net afterward. They didn't have, the Putnams had, they had families, but, I'm talking about Abigail herself and Mary Warren and people who just, they were servants. And I imagine that you get older you know and you think, "oh my God, what did I do?" I also imagine that they probably, they might've been ostracized by the very people who manipulated them. Because, again, the tide was turning, and there were people thinking, "oh, this is was not a good thing after all." So I actually in a way feel sorry for those girls. It wasn't that all of a sudden evil sprang in these kids and then they decided to just put people to death. I don't think that's what happened.
[00:38:54] Josh Hutchinson: I think they were such vulnerable people. A number of them you mentioned were refugees from the wars in Maine and had seen their families get killed and managed to escape. But, they're totally devastated like by that for the rest of their lives.
[00:39:16] Janice C Thompson: They're alone. They don't have, they have to work, 12 year olds, in a community where, in a society where you don't have any agency as a young person yeah. I do think that there's this sort of group think that happens like that.
[00:39:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm kin to Mercy Lewis. I appreciate that people taking a more balanced view of the afflicted. We have to understand the accuser side to understand why the witch trials happened and why things like that happen today. You have to understand both sides. You can't only understand the victim side.
[00:39:57] Janice C Thompson: Yes. That's right. Yep.
[00:39:59] Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned early on that we're living in a time today that's not unlike the times of yesterday. So how, what sort of parallels are you seeing?
[00:40:13] Janice C Thompson: Again, when there is a lot of uncertainty and fear, people make bad decisions. And so for example, today there is a lot of economic inequality, and while I don't agree, I understand that people who have suffered the most from that inequality feel angry and afraid. And when you're in that state, it's easier to say, "I'm just gonna find a scapegoat." They're suffering from a bigger picture of inequality, of the money goes to the owners and, blah, blah, blah.
So I think that's what's happening. And that's why we're so polarized, because we both think both sides of the politic, like we're, it's the other side that's gonna hurt it. Look at the rhetoric. Some of the rhetoric is just crazy. And you're like, where did you come up with that? But again, if you're acting out of fear and anger, that's what happens. And I do think that's what was happening.
I was very interested in, I think it was Nissenbaum and Boyer. They were talking about the sociological aspects of things and the fact that Thomas Putnam, Jr. was expecting a big inheritance from his father. And that's true. The father didn't give him anything. And then it was the same thing that happened with Mary Carr. So these two people who were expecting to be moving up in the world and having all this money now doesn't get the money and God forbid his stepbrother is getting the money instead. And then they look at people like the Nurses who were very poor in Salem Town and then all of a sudden own this big farm. What's up with that? Why are you getting ahead? And that could be very scary. And I think that was what motivated the Putnams, 'cause they were losing power in the community. So I think there are a lot of parallels.
[00:42:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I think what you talked about with the economic stress there is an important factor in why the witch trials happened. What are some of the other key factors we should know about? What was in the Tinderbox?
[00:42:44] Janice C Thompson: So there's the economic discrepancies, there's the border disputes that, that south of the Ipswich River. That's why I feature it in the map. There was the strict, the religious restrictions. There were the wars, worried about making it through the winter, and not being able to agree on a minister. That is weird. Because this whole community couldn't figure out, couldn't decide on a minister. And that was unusual in the colony. Usually they would have ministers who would stay there for life, what's up with that? What's going on in Salem Village?
But I think the thing that was the tipping point was when the colony lost the charter. Because you've had this government for what, 40, 50, 60 years. You've created courts, you've created structures. And then now it's okay, you don't have a charter. You might get a charter, or you might not. So your governmentless at that point. And I think that was the tipping point and then also, by the way, the whole thing about the halfway covenant that was happening in the church as well, that.
It's just so funny because when you hear the rhetoric then about, oh, kids these days, they're worse than we were. That's happening today. It happens with every, single generation. So there were some people, some ministers who said, let's come up with this Halfway Covenant so that we can bring more people into the church, because there's now more lying and fornication and thievery and all of that sort of stuff. People are moving away from God, which is another one of those pillars that people count on, and you take that away, too, and so then there were the conservative ministers like Parris saying, Uhuh, we're not gonna have the halfway Covenant. You need to follow those laws. You need to have evidence for your conversion experience and all of that. So there was a lot of tenuousness in the church, as well. I think those are the elements to the tinderbox.
[00:44:50] Josh Hutchinson: I think that's so important you brought that point up, because we think of Puritan Massachusetts as being this very homogenous society where the rules were set from the top, but no, you had different congregations, and they weren't always in agreement with each other.
[00:45:11] Janice C Thompson: I also think it's the town and country thing. In Salem town, this is a port city, and so you're getting ships coming from Spain and Barbados, and there were black people, there were people speaking different languages. There were the merchant class who were making money off of building a ship and then getting a piece of all of that haul.
And that's what happens today here, too. It tends to be the cities on the coasts. It's more diverse. And so when you're rubbing shoulders with people who are very different from you, you learn how to get along, like that there are actually other ways of looking at the world, but then you're dealing with Salem Village, and they're the farmers, that's why I tried to have when Sarah went with Edmund to have their ordinary in Salem town, like she was hearing a lot of that stuff. So she was, in my mind, she's like more worldly than the Putnams, say.
And again, that's what's happening today. So when you don't have diversity of thought you can very easily just have not necessarily good or truthful ways of looking at the world. When you're not in a diverse area, you're not encouraged to think differently. For me, in my life, I grew up in upstate New York and in a very religious family. I just didn't know anything different, because it was quite an insulated, insulated community. And then when I go to college, Oh my God. At lunchtime people would be coming from their classes and say, oh my God, did you hear about Prohibition? Or, oh, I just learned about this new mathematical theory or whatever. It like leads to this kind of intellectual discussions, which some people hate. But for me, it opened up my whole perspective, because I started talking with people who are not me, who are not like me. And when you don't have that opportunity, it's easy to be insular in your thinking.
[00:47:28] Josh Hutchinson: I thought that ordinary was such a good setting to have early in the story, because of that very reason. There's all these different people from different backgrounds. It shows you that it wasn't just the English Puritan people
[00:47:46] Janice C Thompson: Yes.
[00:47:46] Josh Hutchinson: Salem. There were other people from, and people in Salem had been to far -flung places.
[00:47:54] Janice C Thompson: And that part of the story was actually true. But it also was a great construct, because a woman in the colony would not be interested or even have access to discussions about politics. And but Sarah had her overhearing the magistrates who were coming. And so that was that. She set me up with a great construct to do that.
[00:48:18] Josh Hutchinson: Did you have anything in particular you wanted to be sure to talk about today?
[00:48:24] Janice C Thompson: I really hope that people enjoy it, and I hope people will get something out of it. Genealogical connection is so important to me, even though I'm not a descendant. I think, again, spending time with the Towne family, there's this continual closeness in this family. And people get very emotional about it.
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[00:48:45] Janice C Thompson: When I was back in Framingham, I was the president of the Framingham History Center and we did this program called Voices in the Burying Ground around Halloween, even though it wasn't scary, and I reenacted Sarah complete with the outfit and everything. So we had the people of note who were buried in that cemetery. The tour would go around and visit the different graves, and we would talk about this and everything. And a bunch of the Towne Family Association members came up from Connecticut to see this. And this little girl, eight year old girl, comes up and says, "oh, hi Aunt Sarah." And she starts asking me questions and that's so cool. At the same time, I want this story to resonate with people who are not Townes, and so far that seems to be happening.
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[00:49:38] Janice C Thompson: And I want people to write me reviews on Amazon, because that's the thing. I'm selling a lot of books myself, but those reviews are the things that get the public to be interested. This has really been a labor of love, and I hope that comes through.
[00:49:55] Josh Hutchinson: We encourage listeners to please do that. Pick up a copy of the book, read it, review it. That will help get the story out there. And where can people pick up the book?
[00:50:09] Janice C Thompson: It's in hardcover, paperback, and ebook on Amazon. I do sell it directly. People can contact me through my website janicethompson.net. And I'm also here in Maine. A lot of the local shops and the independent bookstores have taken it. And so if you're in Maine, I always say go to the bookstores and get it, because I want people to support independent publishing. And also if they buy it from these stores, the stores will buy more from me.
[00:50:39] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[00:50:51] Mary Bingham: Two weeks ago, four days after I was told that I had to move because my lease was going to be up in June of 2024, a tree fell and took out the courtyard attached to my apartment and damaged the overhang, missing my window by about a foot. It will cost hundreds of dollars to repair the courtyard and the overhang, I'm sure. If this was colonial times, I could have been accused of witchcraft. That's right. If this was the late 1600s, my landlord could say that my specter somehow caused that tree to fall, causing considerable damage to the property on purpose.
On a more serious note, in 1688, Rebecca Nurse confronted her neighbor, Sarah Holton, because the Holton's pigs kept breaking through their fence, charging into the Nurses' fields and destroying their crops. That was serious, destroyed crops meant less food for the Nurses. Shortly after this confrontation, Sarah Holton's husband, Benjamin, became ill and sadly died. Sarah doesn't say anything until four years later, when she offers a deposition against Rebecca in 1692. Really? Why wait? One can only speculate. Maybe Sarah believed all along that Rebecca's specter caused harm to her husband. It could be that Benjamin's illness was unknown to the doctor and that Sarah needed to believe that something caused her husband's death. This was not an uncommon belief amongst the Puritans. They believed that everything happened for a reason.
Four years later, Rebecca was accused, arrested, and removed from her home and sent to jail. Maybe it was then that Sarah said, "aha. That's it. Rebecca's specter caused my husband to die." This belief in bewitchment or someone manipulating nature to cause bad weather conditions, crop failures, harm to another person's environment, and most sadly, death to a family when scientific evidence was not known, had deadly consequences, such deadly consequences that one accused could hang. This was only one element in the case of Rebecca nurse, but it was an element of many of the cases in colonial British America. Sadly, it is an element in many of the cases of deadly witch hunts today. Luckily, I will not be accused of bewitchment because that tree fell onto the courtyard, but others living in Africa, Ghana, India, Papua New Guinea and other places are accused of affecting nature to cause harm to others at an alarming deadly rate. Please educate yourself regarding ongoing witch hunts. Thank you.
[00:53:59] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:54:02] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[00:54:12] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for being a part of the journey of discovery around witch hunts past and present. Take a look at our episode catalog. It is amazing. It is amazing because historians, authors, academics, economists, advocates, artists and descendants of accused witches have generously given us insightful and meaningful conversation week after week and entrusted Josh and I with their message to you.
Have you read any of our guest's books? Have you pulled up their research and articles to continue learning? Please do. Josh and I are constantly reading to bring you the best research and conversations on witch hunts. You can be reading and talking about it, too. Find links to articles in our show notes. Find and follow our team and guests like Dr. Leo Igwe and Mary Bingham on social media. Many are sharing blogs and articles regularly. Are you following Margo Burns? She has many presentations coming up this fall. Share the links with your friends. Buy books for gifts. Find our guest titles in our nonprofit bookshop, also linked in the show notes. Buy titles at your local independent bookshop or directly from the guests. There are so many great reads, and we are very grateful that each of these academics and researchers have given their time to talk about their work on this podcast.
We want this podcast to reach the world with news that witch hunts are real but that witches are not causing harm with supernatural attacks. That witch hunting is complex and nuanced but not a mystery. Witch hunting is a current crisis, and we all need to be educated on the ways societies find themselves scapegoating those that cannot possibly be the cause of suffering. The targeted individuals become innocent sufferers themselves due to anger and fear. Every week, Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast brings both the history of the past witch trials and news and education about the current global effort of ending modern witch hunts. I hope you are being transformed by the education around witch hunts. Are you talking about our End Witch Hunts advocacy questions? Why do we witch-hunt? How do we witch-hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?
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[00:57:18] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:57:20] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:57:21] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you so much for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:57:27] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:57:29] Josh Hutchinson: Hit the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this podcast.
[00:57:34] Sarah Jack: Find more episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:57:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell everyone you know and everybody you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
[00:57:44] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end modern witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:57:49] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Echos of the Witch is a photographic documentary project by Margaux Crump and Jake Eshelman exploring American witch executions in the context of cultural memory, power and the land. Operating on the premise that places hold memory and that cultural memory can be deeply rooted, hear from the artists in this reflective episode on how their project captures the land and the people of these historical witch trial sites whether the memories of these persecutions have been honored, altered, hidden, perverted, or neglected. This discussion communicates End Witch Hunts’ message: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?
[00:00:00]
[00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with two photographers who have been touring the United States photographing witch trial execution sites.
[00:00:37] Sarah Jack: Margaux Crump and Jake Eshelman have captured images relevant to the trials and executions of 54 individuals across the country.
[00:00:45] Josh Hutchinson: We discuss what they've captured and what they've learned along the way.
[00:00:49] Sarah Jack: We had a deep conversation about photography, witch hunts, and humanity.
[00:00:54] Josh Hutchinson: Sit tight for some impactful dialogue.
[00:00:57] Sarah Jack: Margaux Crump and Jake Eshelman are artists and visual researchers. Their project Echoes of the Witch explores cultural memory, power, and the land as they manifest through American witch executions, and it is viewable online at echoesofthewitch.com.
[00:01:14] Josh Hutchinson: Can you explain for us what Echoes of the Witch is?
[00:01:19] Jake Eshelman: Echoes of the Witch is a photographic documentary project that explores cultural memory, power, and the land as they manifest through American witch executions. So really it operates on the premise that land holds memory and what we choose to remember says a lot about what it is that we value.
[00:01:39] So over the course of the last, oh, I guess it's almost four years now, Margaux and I have been traveling across present-day America to document all locations where our records indicate that 54 individuals were accused of witchcraft and executed by the state. So we're looking really at how the land and the people in these sites have honored, held, altered, hidden, perverted, or neglected the memories of these histories and really just trying to tap into really the fact that these histories are still unfolding in a lot of interesting ways in these locations.
[00:02:12] Sarah Jack: Who is the project for?
[00:02:14] Margaux Crump: I think that the primary mechanism I see happening in a lot of the witch accusations is othering of people who are somehow different, somehow a burden, and that still goes on in many different forms. And I think that these histories, like Jake said earlier, are still playing out in a lot of ways, and as a result, just looking at how we treat people who are different than us, I think that makes this work applicable to everyone here.
[00:02:44] Jake Eshelman: The reason it is a website is because we wanted everyone to have access to this history and access to at least some of the images from this site. We have some other aspirations for this project, in addition to, but it was really important to create essentially like an online accessible archive for anyone to be able to visit, to understand what we know, to explore some of the resources that we were able to find. And in that way, like, it's not just for someone to look at, but it's for someone to really explore and dive into, no matter who you are, where you are.
[00:03:12] And the other thing that I think is worth pointing out is that when we listed the names and locations of the people that we have records for of being accused and executed by the state, we also have an allusion to others yet unknown. And I think that this project also speaks to the reality that not all of these stories and not all of these histories have been documented, that there are still to this day instances of persecution that go undocumented and unrecognized. So I think that, even historically, looking through and acknowledging that there very well may be other instances that we just don't know about and people whose stories haven't been honored or told.
[00:03:55] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's so true. We're hoping that out of all these different projects looking at witch trials, some more research will happen and more records will show up, because we want to know everyone this happened to.
[00:04:11] And what are the echoes of the witch?
[00:04:14] Margaux Crump: I think of them like a palimpsest, which would be when you have an old manuscript, they used to scrape the pages down to reuse the velum that they would paint and write on. And over time the old writing would start to raise up and come through the new writing. And to me, the echoes are these places in the landscape where the past is starting to rise up and come up through the surfaces of what's there now. Or it could even be like a strange bush or a strange tree. There's just something a little uncanny or something you pick up on in the landscape, as well. Yeah. Traces.
[00:04:51] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, it could even be something as intangible as a feeling, like a chill or a presence or it's hard to put a finger on, and I think that's part of the interesting aspect of this project, at least for me is as a visual researcher is how do you visualize these very intangible things? Like how do you photograph the idea of absence?
[00:05:10] So, for example, if you're going to a location where records indicate that this was a hanging site, and there's no sort of memorialization there, it's just a gas station next to a railroad track, what, it's really interesting to have the context of this project, knowing this history and then being confronted with an image like that, because it just doesn't match up with our traditional understanding of memory-making and memory-keeping.
[00:05:33] Sarah Jack: What drew you to this project?
[00:05:36] Margaux Crump: When I was in grad school, I was doing a lot of women and gender studies. That's what we called it at the time. And I picked up a Sylvia Federici book. She theorizes how the European witch hunts, why they may have began, and I just, I got so sucked in. It was like I couldn't look away at all. And I started to wonder about, I've always felt like the land speaks, and I started to wonder about the places here where we've had similar history, similar but different. And I just felt a call, "we have to go find them." And we did. We started researching, and that's how it happened. But yeah, it was through graduate research.
[00:06:24] Jake Eshelman: And of course Margaux and I are pretty much a package deal, so when she got interested, I got interested, and it just unfolded from there.
[00:06:31] Josh Hutchinson: And you had worked on projects together before?
[00:06:35] Jake Eshelman: Officially, this is our first above board collaboration.
[00:06:40] Margaux Crump: We're always helping each other.
[00:06:42] Jake Eshelman: We're like silent partners behind the scenes, in each other's practices, which is lovely and amazing, and it was interesting having this first opportunity to have really both of our names on the same project and to have, not like an equal stake, cuz we always do, but yeah, it was just a different sort of context in which to work together, which was, it was great. Very easy and intuitive.
[00:07:04] Margaux Crump: It's funny because a lot of times people will be like, "who takes the pictures?" And I think that's so intriguing, because people are very attached to who clicks the camera. And when we're setting up these images, it's such a collaboration. We're both creating the composition. We're both sitting at the site. We look at the images together, and we readjust. It's definitely a collaborative effort, and yeah, it's funny to see how people read that through photo work.
[00:07:34] Jake Eshelman: I'm also gonna launch into a diatribe, too, because, for me, photography isn't just about making images, it's also about knowing when an image is successful. It's selecting an image too, and that's just as much of the work, if not more than clicking an image.
[00:07:46] Yeah, I think when people ask that question, it betrays a little bit about how maybe little they know about the process of making images, but, no shade. Just one of those things to bring into the fore, because, again, it's like this work is and has been so all encompassing, between finding the locations, meeting people, working with grassroots historians, tracking down the primary source documents, making the images, remaking the images.
[00:08:11] We have certain shots that we've made probably at this point, maybe 20 different times. Cuz something wasn't quite right or something wasn't quite coming through, and, or maybe we have sites that have changed, and we go back, and it's just such an incredible transformation even in just a matter of two or three years.
[00:08:29] And it's interesting, too, because in a lot of these locations where we've been to, we've seen this history come to the fore and unfold in ways. There have been locations where we go, and there's no sort of memory making, but in the last year or so, there's been success with people being able to set up plaques and set up memorials. And it's interesting to be able to have imaged in just a short amount of time how this memory is starting to seep into and demand a sort of collective consciousness beyond just a couple books and, and an archive somewhere.
[00:09:00] Sarah Jack: That was really great, both of you. That was wonderful. And I'm really proud to say that question is not on our list. Who clicks? I was like, oh, phew. Thanks for sharing that depth to what you're doing. That was really important to capture, so thank you. How do you pick your locations and map them out?
[00:09:20] Margaux Crump: That's where a lot of the primary source documents came in handy. In most cases, it's not specified where someone was executed. So it's a matter of knowing, okay, what time period was this? And then looking at maps of those places and seeing is there anything that suggests some sort of like a gallows, like even if it's just like a cartoon on a map. I saw that once for Connecticut, and that brought me to a certain river bend and a certain part of the city.
[00:09:46] And it's okay, it might be like there. And then it's a matter of we go to the place and oftentimes we'll photograph a few different options, like a few different possibilities, but it could be like, I keep bringing up my favorite bush, but in one of the images there was just this bush that was near to the river, and I was like, that's it. I just know. It's that's the spot. Like, we need to photograph the bush. And so yeah, it's a educated guessing process through research and looking oftentimes at old maps would be a way to sum it up.
[00:10:19] Jake Eshelman: I was just gonna say that another layer to that is I think it's really poignant to realize that in a lot of cases we don't actually know. We have options, we have suggestions, inklings and I say we collectively as in like history. And I think that says a lot about what we valued then, the records that we would keep and that we wouldn't keep, and a lot about essentially what we value now, as well. Because, if we don't dig up these histories, and we don't understand or try to map them out, then it's a sort of continual sense of neglect, in my book. At least that's one way to read it. I'm not trying to be didactic. I think that yeah, the fact that we can't, in some of these sites exactly pin down the locations of these executions, it's significant in a different sort of way.
[00:11:05] And as two artists who are really interested in the research process, that was a kind of evolution of how we understood that this project is a little bit different for us, because we have to be comfortable, and we have to embrace the idea that sometimes in certain situations, again, we don't know.
[00:11:21] How do you memorialize a history where someone was executed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? You can't go there, you can't visit it, you can't have any sort of exact coordinates. And that brings up a lot of intrigue for me in thinking about how you honor that story and that place, cuz you can't visit it. You can't put up a plaque there. So it's really interesting how ephemeral and ethereal a lot of these these images end up being, at least for me.
[00:11:48] Margaux Crump: Yeah, with the boat executions, they were individuals who were coming over from, I believe England, and they were headed to Maryland and Virginia.
[00:11:58] Jake Eshelman: Yes.
[00:11:58] Margaux Crump: And so we, in those cases, we imaged the ocean from the locations where they were supposed to land their boat, where it actually came in. And so that's the best we could do.
[00:12:09] Josh Hutchinson: I take it, Margaux, that your favorite location is the bush. Is that right? And Jake, do you have a favorite location, too?
[00:12:18] Jake Eshelman: A favorite location. I don't. I think that piggybacking off of the conversation that we just had, though, I felt the most peaceful, and I think the most quiet and the most somber, with the Atlantic Ocean. And a lot of that is because that is in and of itself not really a location. It's this expanse, it's this seascape, it's the entire horizon, and you feel small, and you feel humble in the face of that. Looking at the Atlantic Ocean in context of this project, knowing the history that we were exploring, it was a very different way to interact with the sea that I've ever had before. So I think that personally that was the most, maybe the most lasting experience that I had in any of these locations. So I would have to say maybe that as a favorite in bunny ears.
[00:13:12] Sarah Jack: As you've gone deeper into your project and moved from one location to the next, how have the previous locations affected your examination of the next? Is there a connection at all, or is it very independent?
[00:13:27] Jake Eshelman: I think each place has its own flavor.
[00:13:31] Margaux Crump: Yes.
[00:13:32] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, it's, I immediately, when you asked that question, I went back to the locations that we were exploring around Boston and just remembering this incredible sense the entire time we were there that Boston just did not want us there. We were not welcome to explore the, this history there.
[00:13:48] Margaux Crump: No one, to be clear, nobody said anything. It was just a feeling.
[00:13:52] Jake Eshelman: It was just a feeling. Yeah. We had a lot of really strange, awful animal encounters. And it was just, it was a very bizarre way of making images. Whereas when you're in a place like when we were working with people in Stratford, Connecticut or Windsor, you're there with people who are on the ground and working to bring these histories to the fore, so it's much more social in that respect. So each location is very different. And I'm sure that there have been things that we picked up here and there that we've brought with us and has influenced the next experiences that we have in the next place. But it's hard to put a finger on that, for me at least. I don't know about you, Margaux.
[00:14:30] Margaux Crump: Yeah, one of the early locations, we both talked a lot about our having to learn to work with something that we didn't find visually attractive, like a dumpster.
[00:14:44] Jake Eshelman: Yes.
[00:14:44] Margaux Crump: And so doing that a few times prepares you for the later sites for sure, because we're not talking about, for the most part, beautiful stone monuments or churches or anything like that. Sometimes you get literally a dumpster, and what do you do with that? And so that was definitely something that we learned from and worked with and built on. And it's still not something I'm super comfortable with, but I can accept it now pretty readily.
[00:15:08] Jake Eshelman: And then when you do encounter things that are beautiful, you're just so relieved and excited and jazzed, or at least I am. Because I think for both of us, beauty is really important in our work broadly, in this project and also throughout our practices. So to be forced to let that go a little bit in lieu of, you know, photographing, sometimes what we photograph is really ugly, and I mean that in every sense of the word, right? And to have to bear witness and have that responsibility to face these places and to make these images, even though it's, oftentimes it's the last place I want to be, the last thing I wanna be looking at, but that's important too.
[00:15:47] Josh Hutchinson: And on your website, we saw that you list the victims. Have you been able to visit locations associated with all the victims?
[00:15:57] Jake Eshelman: Yes.
[00:15:59] We've been doing this project since 2019, and I should probably sit down and add up the amount of miles that we've traveled cumulatively by car and plane and walking and all that sort of stuff. I think it'd be really amazing. But yeah, this has been very much a labor that's been carrying us through essentially these last four years. It's been very involved.
[00:16:20] Sarah Jack: Is there anything that you would wanna speak to that's been surprising? The experience, what you're finding, what you've learned working together, anything like that?
[00:16:31] Margaux Crump: I was surprised. I did not expect when we started this that we would make so many lasting connections with people. I didn't expect that. I imagined this would be a lonely, little journey and something that we were just two crazy people working on their own. The community surprised me. The community that's still growing and forming and yeah, it's really beautiful, and I'm moved by it all the time. And also how helpful people are who research this for others who are trying to contribute, as well. That's been beautiful.
[00:17:09] Jake Eshelman: I also had a surprise, and this is probably a bit more personal, and I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but when we were going to Salem, I was bracing myself, because I was concerned about the dark tourism, about T-shirts with different slogans and stuff on them, but just, didn't quite suit my taste, and I was worried that it would be a sort of memory making that was just across the board.
[00:17:37] And what surprised me was there's actually a lot of incredible memory making in Salem. There is of course dark tourism there, no doubt about that. One of the things that just completely blew me away was we in the course of this work, ended up connecting with a theater company. I believe it's called History Alive Theater Company in Salem.
[00:17:57] And what they do is they have this one production called Cry Innocent, where they base everything around the transcripts that they have available of the arraignment of Bridget Bishop, who is the first woman in Salem to be accused and executed for witchcraft, and through these productions, it's all interactive, such that the audience essentially serves as the jury, and they get to interrupt the production to ask questions, to cross examine people if they want.
[00:18:24] And at the end, they end up voting as to whether Bridget is guilty enough to go on and actually stand trial, or if she's gonna be acquitted in this new history timeline that they're weaving. And it was really astounding to meet with a lot of the members of the theater company and with the director and to understand the devotion that they have for this history and for bringing it alive, hence the name.
[00:18:47] And the reactions that they've had from audience members, from everyday people, and even just some of the things that the actors and actresses have shared with us about the experience of being involved in this production. It was really moving for me to be able to see these productions and talk with them and to photograph the whole process around it.
[00:19:05] And it's been one of those things that gives me a lot of hope for histories like this or like these, that there are people out there who can take something that is awful and reimagine it and re-envision it in a way that makes it relevant and immediate to our current situation, our current culture and draw those parallels and encourage people to think about these things in their everyday life.
[00:19:27] I think a shared goal that we have for this project is trying to get people to see, oh these people were executed in the 1600s and 1700s, but we still today persecute people. There's still othering happening, there's still oppression and suppression, and I really we're not over this by now? We're not done with it? And I think that anything we can do to help encourage people to think about this history, not as something that's in the past, but something that we need to address now and moving forward I think is, I think it's really important.
[00:19:59] Josh Hutchinson: I agree. That's so critical to get people realizing witch-hunt behaviors have been passed on from our ancestors. We're not different people than they were, and maybe it's different times and different technology, but, underlying, it's the same humans.
[00:20:19] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, I think so.
[00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: And we've been fortunate through the podcast to be able to connect with playwrights, actresses, writers, a ballet company that are all doing these performances and artwork. To bring up just that point, that Cry Innocent tries to make that you mentioned, just to get people thinking. And the arts, I find is a really good way to hit people and get them thinking about things.
[00:20:56] Margaux Crump: I agree.
[00:20:57] Jake Eshelman: I've been doing a lot of thinking about the value of artistic research, the methods that we use, and the things that are possible through these approaches. And I keep on going back to there was a report that someone issued one of the COP summits, I think it was 2022. And their report essentially said that artistic research is really valid, because it can access spaces, it can access people, it can build communities in ways that traditional ethnography can't, and those approaches, they produce different kind of insights and different kind of data, right?
[00:21:33] And that's worth supporting, and that's worth pursuing, because really at the end of the day, like you said, the humanities are a big part of how we see and understand our world, right? The stories that we tell and that we reimagine, and I think that's super valuable to really give people the context to look at their lives and look at their surroundings in a different way.
[00:21:58] Sarah Jack: That's really good. In the light of the things that we've been discussing here and all the layers, can you explain or speak to the first piece, cultural memory, and then I have, we have it broken down to cultural memory, power, land. Speak to it as you are interested to.
[00:22:18] Jake Eshelman: Cultural memories. The way that I interpret that is we have these ideas that get passed down, right? And even things that are apocryphal that aren't necessarily true that we take for face value and that we incorporate into our lives, into our outlook. And I think that with the history of witch persecutions and witch hunts and things like that, those are deeply ingrained into how, at least we, Margaux and I, in the culture that we grew up in, see the world. And I think that you mentioned breaking down cultural memory and power, but I think that there's a lot of power structures innate in the cultural memory, right?
[00:22:54] It's things that we choose to remember, right? It's things that we choose to forget and suppress. And when you take that sort of lens and apply it to a history like the history of witch persecutions, it becomes really interesting to see, okay what do we conveniently forget about? What do we conveniently not document? What do we conveniently not talk about even? And what can we interpret from those sorts of omissions or those sorts of master narratives that go above and beyond those sort of quiet moments? And I think that really for me this project is a way to probe the sort of cultural memory-making though that we have as just broadly as a culture and to see, okay, is this serving us? Is this honoring these histories, or is there another sort of impact or motive, or is something else unfolding from this that maybe we could revisit and learn something from?
[00:23:50] Margaux Crump: I also think part of cultural memory is how we hold the archetype of the witch in oftentimes popular culture. And like why, what is it about a lone older woman, for instance, living at the edge of a wood that is inherently fearful, is inherently dangerous somehow? Why do we believe that? And or another aspect of it is like the seductive witch, the seductive woman, and the danger in that, and certainly not all the people accused are women. I'd like to be very clear about that.
[00:24:27] But I think that archetype of what is a person with power who's somehow at the edge of society, that's a powerful thing to ask ourselves. Do we still find that we're wary of those sorts of characters? Why is it that they still have such a hold in our imagination? Why are there still so many movies and books that capitalize on that archetype? And yeah, it's a very deeply rooted part of many of us.
[00:24:58] Josh Hutchinson: And in the context of the project, what does power mean? How does that play in?
[00:25:06] Jake Eshelman: The first word that came to my head was obfuscation. And I think that where that's coming from is a sense that we have, these histories exist, right? And yet we don't talk about 'em. We don't learn about them. And to me it seems like that is a sort of power play, right? That you have lineages of people who have been in control, who have presided over witch persecutions, who really don't want that to come out.
[00:25:40] And the reason I bring that up is even just thinking back to some of our experiences in those, these locations without of course like naming any names, there have been instances where there people who are doing this research may descend from people who have been executed. They may descend from people who were accusers or who presided over things. And in some of the attempts to memorialize some of these histories, some of the descendants of families whose last names happened to be listed as accusers were not thrilled about having their last names included on these plaques. So they were removed and edited. And that's one of those sort of situations where it's okay, yes, these histories in the past, but also they're very clearly still alive, right?
[00:26:31] 300 years in the scheme of things, if your family has lived there for generations, it's not all that far away. So I think that there are these lingering moments where you do have these expressions of power, whether it is through like editing or redaction or just plain, downright omission.
[00:26:48] But as Margaux said, you also have these really interesting understands that power being attributed to the archetype of the witch, right? So when we think about the history, if someone was accused of practicing witchcraft, they were in a sense rendered powerless, right? Because no one would believe them. They were already probably already othered. Then they were ostracized and executed, right? They got gone. And now it's been interesting because in a lot of contemporary and pop culture, when you think about the witch archetype, a lot of people are interested in it, because it offers a symbol of subversive power, right?
[00:27:27] People will adopt the sort of archetype. And I'm saying this, very generally, I'm not, pointing to any specifics, but there is a tendency, I think, that at least exists where people can adopt the persona of a witch as a way to empower themselves, right? And it's a really interesting shift between the history of people who were powerless and the contemporary experience of people who are looking to that history or even projecting onto that history to get a sense of power surrounding the witch archetype.
[00:27:58] Margaux Crump: I should say another thing that I didn't expect to find as playing a part of power in the project with shame and the power of shame. And that ties back to what Jake was mentioning about what is edited out, what is hidden, what we try to forget. And a big part of that I think is shame, but we don't wanna look at anymore, we don't want to face. And shame can really control a person and a culture. So that's definitely part, I think, of the power in the project.
[00:28:26] Sarah Jack: I was just thinking about Bridget Bishop, she just had this tribute, and she definitely, there's one image of her that she's known through, the seduction. Some of that, there was testimony suggesting, but then we also know about her struggles in her personal history in life, and that kind of gets hidden. That story is hidden there, but then some of that could be even considered shameful. It's it's all very complex, but I like that we can break apart all these different ways of looking at these individuals, and I hope that when we consider these different aspects of how we look at them, that we learn from it.
[00:29:14] Was there anything interesting from the tribute this past weekend?
[00:29:19] Margaux Crump: Was beautiful. They did a beautiful job.
[00:29:22] Jake Eshelman: It was very well done, very respectful, very moving. Yeah, it was, at least for me, I had a hard time with realizing that, okay, this is a one-time only event, I need to make these images, because I wanted to keep on stopping and just put the camera down and participate, cause it was just everything that they were saying and sharing, and the way they went about that memorial or memorialization was, it was very moving.
[00:29:47] Margaux Crump: Even down to the flowers that were brought, everything is very symbolic. A lot of herbs, little bundles were tied and placed.
[00:29:55] Jake Eshelman: From gardens.
[00:29:56] Margaux Crump: Everybody received recognition that day, and there was song, beautiful songs were sung and yeah very respectful and somber.
[00:30:06] Jake Eshelman: Yeah. And I was really pleased to that both the number of people who were there, that's not a, like the audience, but the people who wanted to be a part of this. And their participation, as well, because they brought a lot of flowers that everyone was welcome to take and place. And that was really interesting to watch how that unfolded and the way that people would linger on specific stones or near specific names and what those interactions were like. Yeah, it was really interesting to be a part of it and to be able to witness it.
[00:30:35] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, her story has touched so many people. It's good to honor her and pay your respects. I'm so glad that happened.
[00:30:46] Margaux Crump: Yeah, me too. I think a lot of her being alone when she died, where everybody else was in a group. Everyone in Salem was in a group except for Bridget. And yeah, she really, there's something about her that just really pulls at the heartstrings and so many people do feel very connected to her story.
[00:31:08] Sarah Jack: Do you guys wanna speak more to the land?
[00:31:11] Margaux Crump: I think of the land very much as an active participant in our project. Like we really work to listen to the land when we're in a location and to let it guide us. And oftentimes we talk about them as portraits of the land. Like the land is a being, it's alive, and it speaks in very different ways. And sometimes it's symbolic and what it reveals and conceals is always changing. And that's, I think what has kept us at this project for so long is that it's still shifting so much in terms of what a land is showing. So I think that's, for me, a very important part is recognizing that in our worldview, the land truly is a collaborator. And we couldn't do it, we couldn't do this at all without the land.
[00:31:59] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, there have been really interesting moments throughout the course of this project where the land takes a front seat in this work. And I'm thinking that there in Stratford, there's a an ice cream shop called Goody, Bassett's Ice Cream Shop, and it was named after one of the women who in that community was tried and executed for witchcraft. And we were talking with the owner about the history and just about his ice cream parlor and everything, and it was interesting, because he got the lease on the building, he opened up his ice cream shop, and he found out later that the remnants from the gallows brook, or at least this is the thought, that it runs directly beneath his ice cream parlor and now it's essentially a drainage ditch out back. And it's this interesting moment, for me at least, where you have this history, you have this memory making, and then like brooks, they shift and they move. And this one was essentially covered when they installed the train tracks, but somehow the remnants ended up going of all places right underneath. And it's, I think a lot of people could look at that and not know what to make of it. I count myself as one of those people, but it's also just very interesting, and it's very fun to see how the sort of agency of the land can pop up and influence this project and be a part of this history as it evolves.
[00:33:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I just wanna say we got to eat Goody Bassett's ice cream a few weeks ago at the Goody Bassett Ball, and I approve.
[00:33:37] Sarah Jack: I met the owner picking up my scoop, and I let him know that I worked at an ice cream shop for years and I knew how hard he was working. I was like watching and I'm like, I think that's the owner. So when I got up through the line, I'm like, is this your business?
[00:33:51] Jake Eshelman: Such a small
[00:33:52] Sarah Jack: world.
[00:33:52] Josh Hutchinson: On a more serious note, you started your project shortly before the pandemic hit. How did that impact you?
[00:34:03] Margaux Crump: Oh man. Everything came to a standstill. Yeah, we didn't travel for the project, and all of the leads we had on a possible publication, everything just went silent. And basically, once the worst of the pandemic lifted, and we felt like it was time to revisit the project, it was almost. Frankly, we went to every single site again. We just did it again, because it had been so long in between, and the break, I just felt like we lost so much momentum.
[00:34:41] Jake Eshelman: We did. And I think the break also, though, the silver lining was that it gave us a lot of time to think and to sit with these images, right? And to sit with the work that we'd done and to have clarity about the images that we needed to make about the stones that we're still yet to, for us to flip over. So on one hand it was a big pause, but on another hand, I think it was a supercharging of this project because we realized that there was, there's so much more that we needed to do to really flesh out this project in the way that it wanted to be in the world.
[00:35:17] Margaux Crump: And it's still not done. We're close.
[00:35:19] Jake Eshelman: We're still not done. I know.
[00:35:21] Sarah Jack: So I was gonna be asking how will you know when it's time to wrap up the project, but it sounds like it's going to tell you.
[00:35:30] Margaux Crump: It definitely tells us. Yes, absolutely.
[00:35:33] And it's when they stop nagging me. It's if an image doesn't feel right, it just like pokes and pokes and pokes at me. And I can't let it go. I just know, I know it's not done. And so once they all get quiet, it's once they start resting, once everything just get rests, then it, I think it'll feel complete. But there are still like little images raising their hands and saying me, me, me, I'm not done. Oh, yeah.
[00:36:02] Sarah Jack: That's so interesting that you used the word rest. I don't know if you know that my Twitter handle is @restingwitches.
[00:36:08] Margaux Crump: No, I, I did not.
[00:36:10] Jake Eshelman: Neither of us are on Twitter.
[00:36:12] Sarah Jack: I'm on there quite a bit. Before I got into these bigger projects with the Exoneration Project and the podcast, that was one of the places that I started rooting around, seeing who's talking about the accused, what are they saying, what sources can I find, what places, like all those answers I was digging around on there, and I had at that I don't remember if I realized about my third accused ancestor at that time, but Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty meant a lot to me then. And I just felt they're resting, but this history is not.
[00:36:48] Jake Eshelman: I love that.
[00:36:50] Margaux Crump: Yeah. Yeah, and it's been interesting, kind of riffing on that, what sites feel like they're resting and which ones don't. And you never know what to expect when you get to a place. But there definitely have been some where I've sat back like, wow, it's quiet here. And there are others where it's just boisterous and loud and things are moving and yeah, it's definitely not all resting yet.
[00:37:17] Josh Hutchinson: We've touched on this in some of the questions, but what are you saying through the project?
[00:37:24] Jake Eshelman: Well, I'm saying, look. Yeah, look, look at this. And I say that with a giggle, but I'm also very serious about it. I think that there's great responsibility in acknowledging and respecting history, right? And especially when it's a history that is still pervasive in our everyday cosmologies.
[00:37:46] So my goal is that when we look, my goal at least, and I'll of course let Margaux speak for herself, but when people look at these images, I want them to see this sense of absence, the absence of memory-making or the beauty of memory-making, like what I was saying with History Alive in Salem.
[00:38:06] And to really just sit with that and spend time and think about, critically, why did we do this to one another? Why have we done this to one another? Do we have to continue doing this or can we rewrite a new story or for us, for our culture, for our individual relationships? And if so, what's possible when we don't spend our time essentially attacking one another for stupid shit? God, I can't take me anywhere. All right, Margaux, you take over and be more eloquent.
[00:38:36] Margaux Crump: Jake did a beautiful job covering some very important things that we're saying, and to add to that, one of the things that I know I am working to say with Echoes of the Witch, that archetypes are very powerful, and the archetype of the witch is a very powerful figure. And that archetype is far more complex than we often let it be. And I'm a big believer in blurred lines and complexity and of breaching boundaries here and there. And I would love to bring more complexity and ambiguity to that archetype to be a part of that, because it's not going away at all. And it's beautiful in many ways. And I love how it's changing and transforming.
[00:39:29] But I want to keep into our memory, how in the past it was a very different thing. It was not a deeply empowered figure and allowing that to still infuse into what we today think of as the witch, because part of the witch's power is that they overcome. They're resilient and they're constantly transforming themselves. And I think that mirrors in how so many of these sites have transformed over time.
[00:40:01] I think another thing is the power of transformation and that we're all capable of change, and we're capable of transforming our culture and our values.
[00:40:09] Sarah Jack: And are you already seeing the project transform people you've met? What are you seeing them take away from your work already?
[00:40:18] Jake Eshelman: When I've shared this work with people, they tend to be surprised that there were so many here in the U.S., present-day U.S, whereas I was surprised that we only had records for 54. I thought there would be a lot more. So it's interesting just to compare where people are when they come to this project.
[00:40:42] And I also get a lot of questions about there's so much emptiness in a lot of these images, and I'm grateful because people pick up on the fact that in a lot of places there is no sort of memorialization. That this is a history that is largely, you know, uncovered, undiscussed. And I think that watching that realization on people, on their faces when they spend time with this project and it sinks in, that's a moment where I feel like this has legs and that this is successful. Because you can see the wheels turning. You can see people go, "oh God, wow. This is, it's a dumpster." and it's just, it's a really interesting process to watch people take it in and really just sit with it.
[00:41:32] Margaux Crump: The people who have reached out, who are descendants, who don't have access to the place where their ancestor passed, I didn't know whether that would happen or not, whether to expect anyone to reach out, and seeing and witnessing how much it matters to them to be able to point to a specific spot. It might not even necessarily be the exact spot, but at least it's within reasonable doubt, the spot. And that somehow is bringing them, I'm not going to say closure. I don't have a word. I don't have a word for that, but there's something about it that's of value. And I don't know whether I could say that.
[00:42:14] Sarah Jack: A connection. It helps them connect.
[00:42:16] Margaux Crump: Connection. It absolutely helps them connect to their own mind and their history. Yeah I don't, I'm not gonna say that's transformed anyone cuz, I can't speak to that for those people. But it certainly has transformed me, and I also, it really resonates with me when people who are present-day practicing witches find the project meaningful. Because it's work that needs to be done, and they feel into that, the importance of being able to feel safe in the world, because for a long time they could not be so open with their beliefs and their practices, and for them it's important work, as well.
[00:43:01] Josh Hutchinson: We're very into memorialization, and I'm so glad that you've been working on this project, because it is, in lieu of plaques and statues and things like that, this really is a great memorial to the victims. So I thank you for doing this.
[00:43:25] Jake Eshelman: Thanks for saying so.
[00:43:26] Josh Hutchinson: And you mentioned there were there are 54 victims, and that brings to mind one of the things I really love about the project, which is that you cover the whole United States. It's not the New England Echoes of the Witch or the New England plus Virginia and Maryland. You're covering New Mexico, and a lot, so many people don't know that there were witch trials right here in the southwest.
[00:43:56] Jake Eshelman: We were surprised to learn that, too.
[00:43:57] Margaux Crump: And I'm from Texas. You would think I would've maybe gotten an inkling of that, but no, we did not discuss that in school. Yeah. That's something that has surprised people with the project. I have yet to meet someone who knew about the New Mexico accusations.
[00:44:14] Josh Hutchinson: I only learned about them after we started this project myself, just researching, what other witch trials might there have been in the US and came across, Abiquiú, New Mexico and I really want to go there. What were your impressions of that location?
[00:44:36] Margaux Crump: It's very Georgia O'Keeffe focused, if I'm gonna be honest.
[00:44:43] Most of the work that we did there was in Santa Fe rather than Abiquiú. We did visit Abiquiú. It's a little harder to get information for that area, and the Santa Fe location was very interesting, because the Governor's palace still stands where, cause in, in New Mexico, there weren't trials, per se, the way there were trials in New England. There were accusations, and the Spanish church was involved, and the people who passed in Santa Fe passed in prison. They weren't officially executed. Within our project, we counted people who were in prison and died. But the Governor's palace still stands, but the jail is missing, and the jail would be in the middle of the road to the best of anyone's guess. And there, if you go inside the palace, which is attached to, I believe, the History Museum.
[00:45:35] There is a plaque, like a didactic, a large didactic on the wall that talks about the missing jail cell and has some handcuffs that they uncovered during archeological work, but there's no mention of the men who died there under those accusations. Yeah, it's a very different history than the New England trials and executions. It has its own distinct cultural moment. Yeah, it's, I'm still educating myself about all of that.
[00:46:04] Sarah Jack: Thanks for speaking to that difference, because that's one of the things we've been learning when we're looking at the modern mobish attacks that are happening to women and children, how the different places, times, cultures, circumstances, beliefs really played into how they played out. And I think that helps, that is such a big part of bringing it all together and starting to recognize witch-hunt mentality, and that it's not just one thing. And Margaux, when you spoke to people feeling safe, being able to find a more safe feeling in their practices or for whatever reason they may have not felt safe before from this project.
[00:46:55] I think that is a really amazing gift that you are giving. So thanks for bringing that up too. It's not totally connected, but I think about in South Africa one of our podcasts' guests, Damon Leff, who's been an advocate there. He has fought against the discrimination of pagans there, and there's that safety element too. They aren't safe when they're not protected. And our history of these victims who died, they weren't safe, and they were vulnerable and harmed. And so I really do like that we can create more safety, hopefully, for everyone who needs it.
[00:47:39] Jake Eshelman: Just one thing I wanted to bring up just for clarity, you mentioned the real reality of like mob-style persecutions and things like that. When we say 54 people throughout present-day U.S., we are looking specifically at cases where we have trial records and executions, right? So these are what we are considering executions by the state, right? This isn't your crazy mob who gets an inkling who goes to neighbors or whatever and does whatever awful stuff they do to people. We wanted, because we are looking at cultural memory, right, and this idea of power, it was really important to not only kinda narrow the scope of this project, but to also do so in a way where it really was looking at, culturally these are to a certain degree culturally-ordained executions, if you think about it, socially-ordained or politically-ordained executions. And that says a lot, because it represents at least a majority of the culture, right, a majority of the people who are in a municipality. So I think that has a totally different read than looking at very specific instances of mob mentality, because we really wanted to look at something that had a large critical application to a large swath of our culture and our cultural history.
[00:49:04] Margaux Crump: Part of that was also that you'd actually be surprised the number of contemporary murders where someone was, oh, she or he, or they are a witch and they've been murdered. And that's very recent, and I don't think our project would ever end. So we needed to create a framework.
[00:49:25] Jake Eshelman: That's when this project will be successful for me is when this project can end, when we don't perpetuate these histories, that's when this project has done its work in the world.
[00:49:35] Josh Hutchinson: I recall reading about a case last summer where someone was murdered in the United States for supposedly bewitching someone else. That happens regularly. And you have in the news right now the Lori Vallow case, which is similar, believing in supernatural activity around the children. And so it's important for people to know that these behaviors are still present, and we haven't evolved past that somehow, and we need to work every day towards getting past that.
[00:50:18] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, and I think that acknowledging and spending time with this history is important, because it demands a sort of respect for the history, right? And again, without naming names, you have today really prominent politicians slash crooks slash businessmen who get on Twitter and talk about how there's a giant witch-hunt against him, and he's the persecuted one. And that's just such an egregious statement for me, but it's also part of how culturally some people choose to handle these stories in this history or to co-opt them, or, I don't even know if there's a verb for how gross that is, but whatever that verb is to that history.
[00:51:10] Josh Hutchinson: There's been a lot of discussion about that on Twitter recently with his counterpart in Britain declaring he's been the victim of a witch-hunt, as well. And we've seen a lot of the witch trial academics out there basically shouting, "don't call it a witch-hunt, that's not fair to the victims of witch hunts."
[00:51:38] Margaux Crump: Yeah, and I think that's where that word power comes back in, because both of those individuals have an extreme amount of power.
[00:51:45] Sarah Jack: I don't even know what word for this, but I was thinking, I was looking at these comments that were coming out, wanting to engage, wanting to say the right thing myself. I have all these feelings about it, as well, but it's so you have maybe, whether it's these guys or any other possible male losing power that would choose to call it a witch-hunt, it's an acknowledgement that the person being hunted is losing power.
[00:52:12] So I'm like, okay, so okay, we're acknowledging that actual accused witches were powerless. That's an important message, but to victimize themselves with such a atrocious history on the innocent.
[00:52:30] Jake Eshelman: Pretty much.
[00:52:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and when you talk about the, between the early modern witch hunts and all the witch hunts that have happened since around the world, there's probably hundreds of thousands of people who've been victims of witch hunts and real witch hunts. And it just trivializes their suffering, and it's really a pet peeve of mine.
[00:52:57] Sarah Jack: I really like, Jake, how you mentioned that your project and work like this, when we're sharing the history, teaching, delving into it, that it starts to build up that respect for the history and that the world does need to respect what has happened to a huge portion of our humanity and continues to happen, and I definitely, I feel like looking at what I've observed over the last four years, that's about the timeframe that I've been actively trying to jump in and do something about it. The conversations that I'm seeing online, some are changing in a better way. I'm seeing bigger questions asked, more information coming forward. So I feel very hopeful that things can keep having momentum in the right direction.
[00:53:52] Jake Eshelman: The bar is low. Maybe we can count that among our many blessings is that any sort of increase in conversation and bigger questions is you know, pie in the sky. But to your point, no, I think it's absolutely wonderful and very affirming and very fulfilling to, to not only see that, but to hopefully have some sort of modest part in encouraging some of that. So I think, hopefully, Echoes of the Witches is one of those things that is at least contributing or providing resources for people for that end goal.
[00:54:20] Josh Hutchinson: All right. Here's a question. What have you learned about humanity through the project?
[00:54:29] Jake Eshelman: Talk about big questions.
[00:54:32] Josh Hutchinson: That's the $64,000 one.
[00:54:34] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, man. What have I learned about humanity?
[00:54:39] Margaux Crump: I have learned, and I probably already knew this, but it's been hammered home a few times, that humanity has a very long memory and a very short memory, simultaneously. I tend to be very introverted. I'm very happy to be at home alone with my cats and with my partner. And sometimes this project reinforces that, and sometimes I am moved to tears by how beautiful we can all be with each other. And I like those best. Those moments are my favorite.
[00:55:16] Humans are complicated. We all know that, but sometimes I think we want to forget that. We want, we can try to simplify things. And in a history where there really aren't a lot of answers, a lot of concrete answers, you have to accept things for their muddy edges and the uncertainty and the just the messiness, and I think humanity can be a bit like that, too. We can be a bit messy, and sometimes we're beautiful messy, and sometimes we're messy messy.
[00:55:59] Jake Eshelman: Yeah, that was beautiful. Yeah, I'm not sure that, I think that's all wonderful, and I think that's valid, and I absolutely feel the same way. The only thing that I can add to that is essentially just a different flavor of what Margaux said, that I feel like I have confirmed some things that I've wondered about in terms of humanity.
[00:56:22] In undergraduate, I studied classical studies, so ancient Greece, ancient Roman culture, and through that, I had an inkling that people are people, the only difference is today we're wearing baseball caps and we carry automatic weapons. But really we're the same in a lot of respects as we always have been. Some of our circumstances may be different, some of the things that we worry about may be different, but ultimately there's a continuity there. And Margaux said, like we, we have a very long memory when it suits us and a very short one when it doesn't. And I think that even in spite of the fact that I think we are the same as we have been in a lot of respects, I think that there are these moments where you can see that we are evolving and that we can change for the better, and that we can decide to act and behave in a way, in a world that makes it a better place for everyone. And not just humans, like actually everyone. And those are the moments that, that give me hope and make me feel uncharacteristically optimistic.
[00:57:30] Sarah Jack: Is there anything specific that you have felt change in yourself from doing this project?
[00:57:38] Margaux Crump: Yes, I have had to be much more. Through doing this project, I have found a new safety in my own voice. At first I was, I knew I needed to do this work. I was very nervous. I'm still nervous some days about the ramifications. Even having to ask people to make images in certain places like that made me nervous. I felt unsafe. And sometimes I would talk to the people who in that site I was there to do work around. By people, the people who are gone now and feeling into that and into their stories gave me the courage to push through my own fears and to grow.
[00:58:34] Jake Eshelman: I've had to this whole process of researching and traveling to these places and interacting with the communities and making these images. There's a humility in it that I think has really benefited me in my practice and just the way that I moved through the world. But also to Margaux's point, it's been validating to realize that we, Margaux and I, through this process we have tapped into our power of observation, our power of sharing, our power of cultivating, creating community through this work. And I think that is one of those sort of benchmarks in my creative and research practice where I realized that our approach is valid, our ideas are valid, our interest in this subject matter is valid, and that it's capable of being met, which was great.
[00:59:27] Margaux mentioned that we're still have a little bit of trepidation around this work, around sharing it, around doing it in the right way, about being responsible about it. But thus far, the reaction that we've had from people both solicited and unsolicited has been very supportive and very affirming, so I would say that delving into this project and building it up has given me more confidence in my perspective and in the kind of work that we can create and put out into the world and hopefully enable it to do its work right in the world and create positive sort of reverberations that go out beyond what we could imagine.
[01:00:09] We don't see how this work actually hits people, right, all the time. It's pretty rare that we get to share this with someone for the first time and be able to gauge their reaction. Really what's happening is that people are quietly trickling in or someone shares it with someone else and they're having this experience, the work that, that we can't even, we don't know about it. It's just off somewhere in the ether doing its work. And I hope that through this process that this project and also projects that we may collaborate on in the future, will have a similar sort of mechanism.
[01:00:39] Josh Hutchinson: And how can people support your project?
[01:00:43] Jake Eshelman: Telling people who might be interested is always a great place to start, sharing this, spreading the website. That's all very helpful. It seems so silly to ask for attention, but it certainly helps when people are interacting with the work and sharing it and talking about it. So I'd say that would be the big thing. The other thing I can think of is that if you have resources and you have knowledge regarding this history and you wanna share it, not only with us, but with the rest of the world, please send it our way. We're always looking for that kind of additional knowledge and insight and information. Oh, and if there are any curators listening, give us shows. We love the idea of having this as a solo exhibition, really bring people into the work through our material culture.
[01:01:29] Was that too shameless?
[01:01:31] Sarah Jack: No.
[01:01:32] Josh Hutchinson: No. No.
[01:01:33] Sarah Jack: What is next for you guys after the project wraps? Or when do you start? You mentioned that you have your individual projects. When this starts to wrap and you may wanna do another collaboration, do you already have some ideas? Do you think you'll be surprised by it?
[01:01:50] Margaux Crump: We tend to work on many things at once, so there are always multiple projects happening. I have a feeling that this October Echoes of the Witch we will actually finish making images for. But before that, Jake and I will be in Wales this summer doing a project looking at the deep ecology of sacred springs and holy wells, so that, that is next. That's very soon. We actually leave July 4th for the U.K.
[01:02:21] That's its own project, and it's very different for us, because we are not the only people involved. It's going to branch out and have a lot of different collaborators depending on the location. We have someone we're already working with in the U.K.. We actually have an intern who's working with us, which is very exciting.
[01:02:40] It's also a project that doesn't have a strong plan yet, which is very different. Echoes of the Witch had a tremendous amount of research. I knew exactly where we were going. I'd created maps. And this project tracing the sacred springs and the holy wells is very in the spirit of the water, we're really gonna go with the flow and see where we end up and what calls to us and who we meet and what they think we should look at and who shares what. And it's very different. I'm very excited. I think it'll be a good change of pace.
[01:03:12] Jake Eshelman: There are also through lines, too, because we're looking really, as Margaux mentioned, at the deep ecology of these sites throughout Wales. And it's interesting, going back to our conversations earlier about the idea of land as being sentient, right, of having agency and being able to interact. And this project that we're discussing in Wales very much centers on that kind of idea. Like how do you photograph the spirit of a place? And a lot of these interesting challenges. How do you photograph the mythological invisible beings, whether they're from stories or whether they're microorganisms that are in these places?
[01:03:43] And it's gonna be a very interesting exercise at really the limits and possibilities of image-making, of ecology, of all these things that we tend to be interested in, wrapped up into to one project. Definitely stay tuned. We'll be sharing a lot of our adventures and, of course, our misadventures on social media and through our email newsletters and things like that. So hopefully it's a good time for everyone. And if not, at least it'll be entertaining and significant.
[01:04:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much for all your wonderful answers. Is there anything else you want to add to the conversation before we go?
[01:04:21] Jake Eshelman: I would just say thank you, to all the people who've done the research before us, to all the people who have supported this work, enabled this work, who put us in touch with other people, people who've expressed enthusiasm about what it is we're doing, people who've seen our images and cried, people who've seen our images and gotten excited because they saw something of their sixth great grandmother.
[01:04:43] Yeah I guess ultimately the thing that I wanna put out there is just gratitude for the ability to do this work and hopefully to have this work enrich the history for people who are looking for it and for people who aren't looking for it, cause I think that's just as, as valuable.
[01:04:59] Margaux Crump: Thank you for saying that, Jake. We definitely could not have done this work without the very strong community that surrounds this history. And we're just one in a beautiful concert of individuals who are working around this. And yeah I'm grateful as well for everybody who's made this possible.
[01:05:20] Sarah Jack: And now for Minute with Mary.
[01:05:23]
[01:05:30] Mary-Louise Bingham: I have heard descendants say to me on several occasions, "I wonder what my ancestor who lived two or 300 years ago looks like?" I have wondered that many times myself. A few days ago, when Sarah, Josh and I met to discuss this week's wonderful episode, Sarah pointed out that we three, who are direct descendants of William and Joanna Towne through their daughter, Mary Towne Esty, all have the same rosy colored cheeks and cheekbones.
[01:06:02] My interest was now truly piqued. I looked at pictures of my siblings, same cheekbones, although some are not as rosy as mine. I looked at my distant Towne cousin, with whom I work almost every day, Cindy Hobbs, and her family, all the same rosy cheekbones.
[01:06:22] I then looked at pictures of other Towne descendants on the internet. There they were, again, those same cheekbones. So it might be safe to say that most Towne descendants share the same wonderful feature. Now that we know this, maybe we can all paint a picture in our own imagination of how we view William and Joanna Towne in our own mind's eye, based on our cheekbones and other similar features we share.
[01:06:51] I also looked at pictures of two of my other famous ancestors, Thomas Dudley and his son-in-law, Simon Bradstreet. Ashton Kutcher looks more like Thomas Dudley than I ever will, but I do share a resemblance to my 10 times great grandpa, Simon. Great Grandpa Simon and I have the same eyebrows, eyes, same circles around our eyes, same nose, and the same mouth, with one difference. Grandpa Simon has a natural smile, whereas I have a natural frown.
[01:07:24] It was really cool to discover from where some of my looks came, and though I will never know what many of my other ancestors look like, I must remember one more very important thing. When I look in the mirror, I remember that because of them, I exist.
[01:07:42] Thank you.
[01:07:42]
[01:07:50] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[01:07:52] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[01:07:55]
[01:08:12] Sarah Jack: Awareness of the violent, modern witch hunts against alleged witches is increasing across the world. International media, organizations, governments, and individuals want it to stop. The United Nations Human Rights Council is acknowledging the crisis and urging additional efforts by affected states and by all stakeholders.
[01:08:31] We are all stakeholders in efforts to stop these witch attacks and abuse crimes against women, men, and children. When you see it in the news, read about it and share it. Educate yourself and others. Witch hunts that are happening now are fueled by the same influences that incited panic and hunting in the past.
[01:08:49] The Salem Witch-Hunt was not different than what is happening now. Those that were executed in Salem were as innocent of their charges as the victims targeted today. Human agency is behind past and present alleged witch executions. Misfortune is not due to human agency in the way that accusers imagine and punish for.
[01:09:08] We must help change this moral panic against vulnerable community members by standing against witchcraft fear. We are seeking to change a behavior that has been present for thousands and thousands of years. We can reflect on what is known of historic witch trials and evaluate the alleged witch attack crisis that is happening in our own time and place. If it's happening on a continent now, it's happening in your time and place. This world belongs to us and we can end witch hunts.
[01:09:35] Think and speak like Member of the Executive Council Nonhlanhla Khoza of South Africa. Quote, "It is alleged that Mchunu was brutally murdered by a local boy at the weekend, accusing him of witchcraft." Then, quote, "it's alleged that the community also stoned the boy to death after he was seen following the pensioner."
[01:09:53] Khoza, the KZN Member of Executive Council for Social Development, condemned the killing of Solani Mchunu. Quote, "as the community of this province, we should understand that every individual has the right to life, dignity and freedom from violence. Therefore, targeting and persecution of individuals based on accusations of witchcraft is not only morally repugnant but also a violation of fundamental human rights."
[01:10:19] MEC Khoza said witchcraft-related violence is a deeply rooted issue that requires immediate attention and concerted efforts from both the government and society as a whole. She said it was crucial for communities to foster understanding, tolerance, respect for diversity, recognizing that myths about witchcraft do not justify violence.
[01:10:39] Quote, "we call upon the law enforcement agencies to conduct a thorough investigation into this heinous crime and ensure that perpetrators are swiftly brought to justice. Quote, "it is essential that legal systems send a clear message that such acts of violence will not be tolerated and that those responsible will face the full force of the law."
[01:10:58] She appealed to the public to prioritize the protection of vulnerable individuals, particularly the elderly, who may be more susceptible to accusations of witchcraft. Khoza said a team of social workers had been dispatched to both families to provide adequate psychosocial support, including trauma debriefing and trauma containment.
[01:11:17] Khoza is echoing the message that Thou Shalt Not Suffer has been sharing. You have been listening to her same plea from advocates on this podcast. The crisis is real. The plea is real. The solution is real. You are the real solution.
[01:11:31] Now listen to this quote a second time, considering it could be any violence to anyone that is important to you. Quote, "we should understand that every individual has the right to life, dignity, and freedom from violence." I know you agree with that. Therefore, this should feel pressing to you. Quote, "therefore, targeting the persecution of individuals based on accusations of witchcraft is not only morally repugnant, but also a violation of fundamental human rights."
[01:11:56] Get involved now. Witch hunts did not end.
[01:11:58] Read our show notes for links on guests, books, news, and supporting the podcast. We need your support. Get involved. Contact us at endwitchhunts.org. To support us, purchase books from our bookshop or merch from our Zazzle shop.
[01:12:11]
[01:12:27] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[01:12:29] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[01:12:31] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:12:36] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[01:12:38] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe in whatever app you use to get your podcasts.
[01:12:42] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:12:45] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
[01:12:48] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Talk about it. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[01:12:54] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:12:58]
[00:00:00]
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to a free bonus episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. We'll speak with Virginia Wolf, Debra Walsh and Andy Verzosa about the upcoming play The Last Night. The Last Night was written by and stars Debra Walsh and Virginia Wolf. Debra portrays Rebecca Greensmith and Virginia portrays Mary Barnes, two women executed for witchcraft on January 25th, 1663, at the end of the Hartford Witch Panic. Andy Verzosa is executive director of Stanley-Whitman House a living [00:01:00] history center and museum of colonial life in Connecticut.
A stage reading will be performed at Stanley-Whitman House in Farmington, Connecticut on Saturday, January 21st. 2023 at 7:00 PM. Doors open at six 30. Tickets can be purchased at s-wh.org/Mary-Barnes-Day. The link is in the show description. A free online video showing will be presented on Wednesday, January 25th at 7:00 PM Eastern Standard Time. Information and registration is also available at s-wh.org/Mary-Barnes-Day. And now here are Virginia Wolf, Debra Walsh, and Andy Verzosa.
Virginia Wolf: I'm Virginia Wolf, and I have been working with the Stanley-Whitman House, who's hosting this event, for [00:02:00] years, and actually it was a Stanley-Whitman House that initially introduced me to the history of witchcraft here in Connecticut. I was born in Salem, Massachusetts, so I knew all about that. I had no idea till I came here. And long ago I portrayed Mary Barnes, who I'm portraying for this project, for the Stanley-Whitman House in a play, and that peaked my interest to start looking at all the other stories of the women, and men, but mostly women, who are accused of witchcraft and working with Andy and again Debra, who found her way a differentway, but we've been able to collaborate writing and now performing this short but incredibly compelling play.
Debra Walsh: I'm Debra Walsh. So a few years ago I did an event called the West Hartford Hauntings through the Noah Webster House. It was going through a graveyard, and the main character was Ann Cole. And one night when we were leaving, Rebecca Greensmith's trial was mentioned in this tour. So my friend said, "these people are [00:03:00] real. They really existed." And so that I was, "wow, there's this whole history in my neighborhood and Connecticut history of people who were hanged and executed for witchcraft and were innocent."
When that was over in October, I started to look, research, Rebecca Greensmith, and I got really inspired, and the first person I got in touch with was Ginny. I knew that she'd been doing this work for a while and had seen some of her work online, and I got a grant and did a reading. I wrote a play, we did a reading of The Hanging of Rebecca Greensmith, and I just wanted to keep going. So we met with Andy, and I said, "what about The Last Night? Cause they were in prison together. What did these two women talk about? What was that night like?"
You don't know what you don't know until you [00:04:00] start figuring out what you need to know for this. I think the stories need to be told. I think, especially considering how women have usually ignored historically. And I know there were two men accused, but one of them, Rebecca just gave up, because she, we believe, Ginny and I believe, Rebecca didn't want her daughters at the mercy of him.
So it's getting exciting now.
Virginia Wolf: Many people don't know that Connecticut has a history of witchcraft, witch panics in the 17th century and, in fact, the first person to be hanged for witchcraft, I know you all know, was Alice Young.
And Arthur Miller, God bless him, has made the Salem witchcraft panics the standard by which everything is considered, and people don't even realize that the history, and it's not necessarily a history to be proud of, but it is something that it happened. It was an outcome of the religious beliefs at the time, the patriarchal society of the time, and in [00:05:00] Connecticut, 1663, January 25th was the last, that was the last execution. Rebecca and Nathaniel Greensmith and Mary Barnes. And remembering that, and this is 30 years before the Salem Witch Trials ever happened, and how Rebecca and Nathaniel Greensmith were executed, along with Mary Barnes, on January 25th, 1663, 360 years ago. And acknowledging that date is so important so that people are aware that this did happen and that we have, there's a lot of really cool efforts going on in Connecticut in various pockets to reveal this part of history, but the culmination of these panics and the executions. It is a celebration they ended here 30 years before Salem had their famous panic.
Debra Walsh: I think it's, um, significant from an educational point of view, like Covid and learning through Zoom. How do museums get people in to their buildings? [00:06:00] What are the stories we can tell that happened right outside the door of the museum? How do we appeal to younger people? And I think theater can do that by having the education or the story is done theatrically and thoughtfully.
And it, I think it, for me, relates to any time someone is considered the Other. You know, when I think of the immigration crisis, and so maybe it will get us thinking about how do we treat the Other, what do we think about, oh, especially innocent people executed for for these crimes. A hanging, like where is our humanity? And those questions are very important to me as an educator, as a theater educator, and also to stretch out the bonds of theater. What else can theater artists be doing? And like I'm obsessed with Rebecca, you know, her courage and her [00:07:00] loving to make stout and her dancing.
Virginia Wolf: It's been a really wonderful thing to be writing this, because there aren't a lot of records of what happened at the time. There are more records based on Rebecca Greensmith in her trial and what she said. There's really virtually nothing on Mary Barnes. So we work from primary sources to write this, to make as factual as we can but then weaving in informed conjecture, what could have happened, since we don't know what happened. And then the dramatic arc, which we've done the writing, but Andy and our director have really helped with that, so that the story is alive and it's vibrant, but it is based on history, and we are not saying anything false, but we are taking the facts and elaborating them to make them an interesting story.
Debra Walsh: It's really a pleasure for me to be working with a former student of mine. He was my student when he was in high school, who his name is Brian [00:08:00] Swormstedt. He's a writer, filmmaker, a good director, and you need a director. You need this outside ear to help us, because like I got, when you're obsessed with someone, I want everyone to know every little detail that I know, and it's not important to this story. Plus, when you work with such a talented actress as Ginny Wolf, the give and take and going back and forth. I'm an actress. I love it.
Virginia Wolf: Yes. We're, uh, having fun. And it's now that Brian and Andy have both added so much to the script, and I think I put this in an email to them, Debra and I working on this script and knowing these women, have tunnel vision and having an objective vision, which Andy and Brian both, there's too many words in it. It was like, you know what? You're absolutely right. We love every word we put here, but it, so many of 'em are unnecessary. And it's now we're at the point where it's locked in until we decide to make another change. But and we can really focus on our character development [00:09:00] and our relationships.
Debra Walsh: I hounded Andy until he met with me. He came to see The Hanging of Rebecca and said, "maybe we should work together." And yeah, I just kept pounding him because I then learned of the Mary Barnes Society through the Whitman house. And another former student of mine, who's also working on this production said, " why doesn't Connecticut have the attraction like Salem does?" "Why," and I thought, "why can't the Whitman House be the place to go, to learn about the trials, the history, the Puritans?" So I just, I kept hounding him until we met.
Virginia Wolf: I know that the the future of the Whitman house is for another story, but as far as the collaboration, so since Mary Barnes has lived in my soul for 15 years, Debra and I, and we've known each other, but we've never worked together, all of a sudden are writing a script together and have a Google document that we are [00:10:00] writing and editing and sharing ideas and it might not have worked, and it has worked beautifully. I really feel fortunate that I got to work with her, and the writing was the first step, and now the acting is the next step, the really fun step. So it's been a beautiful collaboration.
Andy Verzosa: So it's been exciting. Museums are a place where people can gather and history can be interpreted and presented. And what's exciting about Ginny and Debra is that they are presenting their interpretation of Rebecca Greensmith and Mary Barnes and what their last night would be. So there's so many different ways that you can go about this, and through their informed conjecture, through really it's a a great opportunity to interpret what that might be through our eyes in a contemporary sense with what we know. And then really tackle it and work through it.
So it's been a great opportunity for me, as the director of the museum, to invite two artists to work together. Commissioning a play is a new thing for Stanley-Whitman House. We do living history, but [00:11:00] we've not gone the artistic route and commissioned a play. And then to be able to work with two people who have really owned this internally as actors is really exciting. So they're playwrights, actors. They're doing this project. There's, like I said, a host of ways that you could approach this, and it's exciting to watch it unfold. It's still very much a cake in the oven. It has not been baked and set out on the counter to cool and to be finished off.
Anxious to see what happens on the 21st, of course, because that's where the magic happens. You present the art to an audience, and hopefully it, you have a vessel, in that room, in the Whitman Tavern at Stanley-Whitman House. Something happens and switches on ,and people leave an experience, and it should be transformative.
So I think museums are important for that to happen and to do these types of things. And I do a lot of differentthings where we try to make history come alive and engage people. [00:12:00] And again, I can't say how lucky I feel to work with Ginny and Debra to be able to do this.
So exciting for me to know that there are all these different things that are running right now, cuz this is a, I think, a seminal time, in a way, for reckoning on many different levels for many different things. And I think that's important, and we come to these processes, and we go through them, and then we come together as community. And again, I think museums are a great place for that to happen.
Virginia Wolf: I was first introduced to this 15 years ago, probably, at the Stanley-Whitman House, where Lisa Johnson, the director at the time, was working with the humanities association and Walt Woodward, the state historian, to compile at least a resource book where all of the different information is. The Wyllys papers are at the historic society. Different museums and libraries have pieces. There are books that have been written.
From there, I knew where to go to try to get the information. Once we'd embarked on this, there was about [00:13:00] four months where my dining room table was just covered with all of the books, all of the things I, because I had written a one woman show about the entire witchcraft panic. So I had all the different resource for all the different stories and all of that.
So it is available, but not so much for Mary Barnes. Mary Barnes, there really wasn't, we know she existed. We know she was hanged. There's not much about her trial. We don't know why she was accused. We don't know a lot about her, which is frustrating, freeing as well.
Rebecca Greensmith, she's a huge personality back then, because we do have from those records that one of the magistrates called her a lewd and ignorant woman and aged, although we think she was about, what, 40?
Debra Walsh: It was her former reverend who said that before she came to the colonies.
Virginia Wolf: There are some verbatim records that were taken straight from the trials. And there's a lot of guesswork that goes on, and you have to be very careful as you're reading these books and you're speaking to people that what they're putting forward [00:14:00] as fact actually is fact. And I, for my own family, we have descendants from some of these people who were hanged, and there's family legend that actually is not at all what really happened, but this is what's come down through the years in their family. It was always a struggle to, and it still is to make sure this is not a history lesson based on fact, it's engaging, and it's exciting, but that it does not mislead anyone as to what really happened. Luckily, there were enough records for us to be able to write it, but then leeway for us to, with our informed conjecture, to really make the story compelling.
Andy Verzosa: If I might, at Stanley Women House, we do a lot of living history, and so we're looking at a lot of different people in history and trying to tell their story in a engaging way. For example, we have a Connecticut Open House Day, or a Connecticut Historic Gardens Day, and we might portray people who've lived in the house and who they were and what they did. And we need to do this in a, [00:15:00] not in a wooden way, not in a boring, didactic way. So we really work hard at trying to bring those characters alive.
And oftentimes, even when we've done our books, like we've looked at different people who are buried in our cemetery, and published a book this past year. And Memento Mori Cemetery, and what we've done is oftentimes there's not information about a person directly. We've had to look around that person, the relationships they've had, the places where they lived, the time that they were living, et cetera. Without getting too deep into that it's a word called prosopography. So we're looking all around so that we can get a sense of the whole, so that we can, can inform a lot about that person. So there, there's some conjecture there, right? But it's based on reasonableness and some facts.
And so this is of what I think that Ginny and Debra have certainly done with the Witch panics and trials. There's been a lot of people who've written books. I've done [00:16:00] work. Recently, I've been on a tear reading John Demos, um, a Yale professor, and looking at what he's done, and he really looks at the family in colonial times. So sometimes, as well as the witchcraft panics In Colonial America. So there are a number of ways to do it. It's a whole field of study, so you could just, it's ongoing, right? And that's what I love about my job is that, we try to get people engaged at any level. Certainly Debra and Ginny are coming at it at a much deeper level and as actors and portray portraying these particular characters.
History is important, but there's also that element of humanity that's important. So if think about the humanities and the studies of the humanities and the liberal arts, you're really coming at it very objectively, as much as you can.
Debra Walsh: Thank you for that. I was able to spend time with Beth Caruso and another person who wrote about the history, Richard Ross, and I met someone once, this is an [00:17:00] anecdote. This couple that lives out in Texas had done a lot of, they went to every place where they think somebody might have been hanged around the country and where their bodies were dumped. And anyway, long story short, I heard from someone who said that Rebecca was hanged one mile north of where the Old State House is now. Her back was facing the mansions, and there were mansions, and I thought that was really interesting. So I'm driving, and I get a call from Beth Caruso, who wrote One of Windsor, and she she did the same thing. It's based on Alice Young and using informed conjecture, but she said, "oh my God, they just released this in this journal." A historian found a photographer, who found some ancient papers, and there was a gallow, and it was the exact same words of this woman, one mile directly north of where the Old State House [00:18:00] in Hartford is now, and their backs would've been to the mansions that were there. So I went there. It's now a playground at the Y on Albany Avenue.
So that interested me and other people's takes, like people that I was able to meet and interview. So a lot of the historic, two of them, Richard and Beth said was interesting. It's interesting to see these people brought to life as human beings, like a body telling the story instead of this historical document.
Virginia Wolf: It is important. So many stories, and I think I, I came into this as an actress really, and saying, when I learned about this, there are so many stories. These stories need to be told. And it's really satisfying to be doing it. And I find that I'll take my one woman show to, in which I portray five of the women hanged, and to museums and historical societies and schools where people don't have a clue that this ever happened. [00:19:00] And oh my gosh, what a wonderful feeling to to bring this knowledge out to, to bring out the awareness.
It's terrific.
Debra Walsh: I sat in the audience of Ginny's last show, and the people were just, " this really happened?" Some people who are direct descendants have one, a couple people who were in that audience as well and wanted more information, but just watching the audience taking this in, something that you're not aware of in your state, in your city, in your neighborhood.
Andy Verzosa: I was familiar with the Salem Witch trials, of course, but not about what was happening in Connecticut. And when I started at Stanley-Whitman House, I was aware that there's some activity and that my predecessor, Lisa Johnson, had done a lot of work, but I really hadn't seen anything.
I hadn't seen the play ,or we have a video of the play, and really didn't know until [00:20:00] I got a phone call, early on,, I'd probably been in the job like three months, from Bridgeport, and they were doing a dedication memorial for goodie nap and they said, geez, we know that your predecessor's no longer the director, but could you, as the director of Stanley-Whitman House, come down and offer some words? I obviously reached out to my predecessor, and we connected on that, and I did go down and offered words, not knowing a lot, but being thrown into it. And this is back in, I think 2018 and what I felt when I was there, because it was quite a quite a celebration and a an event, and there were descendants that were there. There were different dignitaries, and of course I met Beth Caruso there and others, and the people who organized it. And I just realized like how important it was, and that gave me a whole new perspective on what I might be able to do through the [00:21:00] museum.
Fast forward to 2023, here we are. And I'm more comfortable in this role now working with Ginny and with Debra, of course. And I'm excited for the play to happen. I'm anxious. I can't wait for it to happen. And I feel like it's really good for the museum to be doing this kind of work going forward and to continue.
We're really looking forward to people doing the online program. We can have hundreds of people on that, where we can only have 40 people at the museum for the live staged reading.
Virginia Wolf: And we'll do a live talk back after each. So Debra and I will be at the museum after the movie, for lack of a better word, and then people will be able to come on, and we'll do a talk back as well, which will be very interesting.
The stage reading will be at the Stanley-Whitman House on Saturday, January 21st. Starts at 7:00, doors open at 6:30, and you can access tickets on the Stanley-Whitman House website. It's limited, very limited seating. It's a small space for the reading, so if you are [00:22:00] interested in attending, and we'll have a live talk back afterwards or the reception. But we are very excited, this is gonna be totally new for me, that we are also filming it and I think the way it's working because of Bryan and Patrick being so well they know how to do this.
The film, I think is gonna be different from the reading, but that will be presented on the anniversary of the hangings on Wednesday, the 25th of January via Zoom. People can sign on for the webinar register, and then I think it'll be up on a YouTube channel for the Stanley-Whitman house in perpetuity.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. Tickets for The Last Night can be purchased at S-WH.org/mary-barnes-day. The link is in the show description.
Have a great today. And a beautiful tomorrow.
[00:23:00] [00:24:00]
Presenting New York Times best selling author Katherine Howe. She discusses how we should view the individuals from the Salem, MA witch trial history. Katherine gives us an exciting preview of her current fiction book project on 17th century female pirates:: A True Account of Hannah Masury’s Sojourn Amongst the Pyrates, Written by Herself: a novel. We continue the conversation inquiring with our advocacy questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?
[00:00:00] Josh Hutchinson: " Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
[00:00:03]
[00:00:24] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to another episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:31] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:33] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is the extraordinary author Katherine Howe. We'll speak with her about the causes of the Salem Witch Hunt and about her new book on pirates. I'm excited to talk about Salem Witch Hunt again and really curious what her book is about.
[00:00:56] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it doesn't matter what time of year.
[00:00:59] Josh Hutchinson: [00:01:00] It's always Christmas for pirates.
[00:01:02] Sarah Jack: Just like Katherine's other books, you are going to be delighted by the characters and the adventure. Fun getting to hear about it, and it's gonna be hard to wait for the publishing.
[00:01:17] Josh Hutchinson: She has wild swashbuckling shenanigans. But first, on a more serious note, we talk Salem, Witch Trials, what caused them, what didn't cause them, why Katherine Howe it gets fired up about certain topics.
[00:01:37] Sarah Jack: We get to a lot of layers.
[00:01:40] Josh Hutchinson: Peeling that onion.
[00:01:42] Sarah Jack: We just take Katherine right into the depths of the mechanics.
[00:01:48] Josh Hutchinson: We talk about the different spheres that Malcolm Gaskill spoke about that are nested in each other and how each of those [00:02:00] spheres contributed to the witch-hunt.
[00:02:03] Sarah Jack: We talk about what kind of perspective do we need to be using when we look back at the individuals that were in a different time in history.
[00:02:12] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yes, we do that, don't we? Wow, this is gonna be one hell of an episode!
[00:02:19] Sarah Jack: Aren't they all?
[00:02:20] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, but I have a good feeling about this one. It's gonna be something special.
[00:02:26] Sarah Jack: It's another dynamic conversation with a phenomenal author and researcher, and she does not hold back.
[00:02:36] Josh Hutchinson: She does not. The emotions come out. Be ready.
[00:02:43] I'm going to talk about the before the Salem Witch Trials, what the conditions were in Massachusetts Bay Colony and Salem Village and Andover.
[00:02:56] Colonies used to have charters, so they [00:03:00] were officially recognized by the English government to govern themselves without direct supervision from the Crown and Parliament. Massachusetts Bay lost its colonial charter in 1684, when King Charles II revoked it because they had been naughty boys. And when the witch hunt began in early 1692, they still didn't have a charter, so they were in legal limbo.
[00:03:34] In addition, they were fighting King William's War and still recovering from King Philip's War, which was the costliest and bloodiest of the colonial wars, occurring between 1675 and 1678. In fact, the Massachusetts economy did not recover to pre-war levels [00:04:00] until the 1800s, after the Revolution.
[00:04:04] Economic hardship resulting from the wars and the collapse of land speculation were also contributed to by an influx of refugees from the frontier in Maine and New Hampshire, and Essex County, where Salem's located, was especially impacted, due to its proximity to that frontier, being the northernmost county in Massachusetts. Many of the settlers of Salem had moved on to Maine and New Hampshire, only to be forced to return when their villages were burned to the ground.
[00:04:50] Beyond these issues, in Salem, the town had recently gone through a bit of a separation, [00:05:00] where Salem Village was allowed to begin its own church. In 1689, Salem Village hired the fourth in a series of unpopular ministers, and there were disputes over his contract, so there was a lot of tension in the area.
[00:05:23] There was also tension in Andover, which was the hardest hit by the witch trials, with some 45 individuals being accused. There, there was a dispute between two ministers, Francis Dane and Thomas Barnard. Francis Dane was an older gentleman with health issues, who was no longer performing full duties as minister. So they had brought in Thomas Barnard, a younger man to take over some of [00:06:00] his duties, but were still paying both men in 1692, leading to tensions within the community that may have fueled some of the allegations there.
[00:06:13] We'll get into these issues further with Katherine Howe, and specifically we'll be discussing Andover in a few weeks with author Richard Hite and get into more of whether the dispute over the ministers did or did not contribute to witch-hunt fever in that community.
[00:06:35] Sarah Jack: That was good, Josh. Thanks, Josh.
[00:06:39] Josh Hutchinson: You're welcome. It was a fun one to do, and we're going to dig into that stuff some more with our guest.
[00:06:48] Sarah Jack: I am excited to introduce author Katherine Howe, whose works include The Physick Book of Deliverance Dane, Conversion, [00:07:00] The Daughters of Temperance Hobbs. She's an editor of The Penguin Book of Witches and co-author of Vanderbilt.
[00:07:09] Josh Hutchinson: We've read that you're actually connected to somebody accused, which is an interesting connection. So can you tell us about who it is that's your ancestor?
[00:07:22] Katherine Howe: It's a little bit of a funny story. So my last name is Howe, like, how are you? But with an "e" on the end. And one of the witches who was accused towards the beginning of the Salem panic and who was put to death was Elizabeth Howe. And she was from the same broad region that my family was from also. So it wasn't a huge surprise when my aunt, back in the nineties, she was doing some genealogical research, and she figured out that that Elizabeth Howe is, I think it's like my eighth great aunt. So it's a lateral thing, rather than a direct thing. But at the time, she discovered that Elizabeth [00:08:00] Howe was related to us that way and also that Elizabeth Proctor was also a eighth or ninth great aunt, as well.
[00:08:07] Just not all that surprising given that those communities were pretty small, and there were lots of intermarriages between different family groups and things like that. So it was in the nineties when I first learned that and thought, of course, it being the nineties and me being a grunge kid, and I thought was like, "oh, that's so badass. That's so metal." thought that was the greatest thing ever.
[00:08:27] I didn't give it much thought beyond that, until I was actually living in that region of New England, because my family left New England in the 1930s. I grew up with this sense of it as like the motherland, but I didn't actually grow up there myself. So I arrived in this region with this kind of funny twin consciousness of, oh, this is home, but I'm also a stranger here. And so it was being a stranger in this place that I felt this kinship that probably contributed somewhat to my getting started [00:09:00] writing fiction.
[00:09:00] My first book was The Physick Book of Deliverance Dane, which was something I started working on when I was in graduate school at Boston University and just trying to think about the humanity of people living in this time and the, maybe a funny little detail. So one of the historians of witchcraft who I really admire the most is a woman named Mary Beth Norton, who wrote a book called In The Devil's Snare, which anyone is interested in Salem has to know Professor Norton's work, cause she's just like the kind of detail that she can bring to it. And she writes in a novelistic sort of way. It's just like the most gripping account of Salem ever. And Professor Norton has said that the more you work on witchcraft, the more superstitious you become. And I have to say that this is true. As evidenced by the anecdote I'm about to tell you.
[00:09:54] So my first book was The Physick Book of Deliverance Dane. It asked, "what if one of the Salem witches the real [00:10:00] thing?" But the real thing the way the colonists believe, which is to be not in that pointy hat fantasy, Harry Potter Sense.
[00:10:07] And I built that story around a woman named Deliverance Dane who's a real person. And she was a minor person in the Salem Witch crisis. She was accused towards the end of the panic. She was not put to death. She really, like, was a footnote, I think, in the real history of Salem. And so I felt like it was okay to build a more fantastical story.
[00:10:30] Physick Book is a magical realist story, so I wanted room to have kind of a fantastical story around a real person. And so I picked her because of her obscurity, but also because of her name. Her name is so evocative of this particular moment in time of this like subculture that she was living in, Puritan New England, Deliverance Dane. Just amazing. So that is why I chose to write about her.
[00:10:59] That book [00:11:00] came out in 2009, and so several years later I was futsing about on a genealogy website because of course, for people who are interested in family history, life's gotten a lot easier. Over the last couple of years, with the advent of digital humanities and so many more ways of doing research online. Like, when my aunt was doing research in the nineties, it was really hard to do, and now it's actually much more accessible, which is a huge gift.
[00:11:25] So I'm messing about, point, click, point, click, and I come upon Nathaniel Dane, which is actually the name of a character in the book that I wrote, and I was like, "huh, that's a weird coincidence. Who knew?" Point, click, point, click, point, click. Lo and behold, I learned that it turns out Deliverance Dane, the real one, is my eighth great-grandmother. And so she's more closely related to me, genetically speaking, than Elizabeth Howe, even though Elizabeth Howe and I have the same last name. And I had [00:12:00] zero idea, no idea whatsoever, and I'd written an entire novel about this person and found that there she was, just hanging out, waiting for me. So I definitely have gotten more superstitious the longer I've worked on witchcraft.
[00:12:11] Josh Hutchinson: That's a very strange thing to have happen to you. But it turns out that Deliverance Dane is actually my like eighth or ninth great grand aunt, and Elizabeth Jackson Howe is also an aunt, and Deliverance Dane, in her confession, says that she worked with Mary Osgood, and that's my grandmother. I connected to a lot of the people you're connected to.
[00:12:39] Katherine Howe: So we're cousins, Josh.
[00:12:40] Josh Hutchinson: And Sarah's my cousin through Mary Esty.
[00:12:44] Katherine Howe: Wow.
[00:12:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. It's a small world when you get back to those little towns back there.
[00:12:50] Katherine Howe: Yes. It really is, for sure. It's still pretty far back there. It's a long time ago. It was very funny. I once did a book event, and someone came out to me very emotional, [00:13:00] and they were, turns out, a descendant of a judge from the Salem trials. And this person wanted very much to personally apologize to me. And I was like, " no, it's really, it's okay". Like he's, this is not something that you need to feel badly about. This is, everything's fine, cool's fine. But it is interesting to me how close people can feel to people who are living in such a distant time period.
[00:13:26] Josh Hutchinson: We definitely feel connected to our ancestors, and we talk to a lot of descendants of which trial victims, and they have an emotional bond with those ancestors, but that was so long ago. Did you get interested in Salem because of your connection with Howe and Proctor?
[00:13:51] Katherine Howe: Partly. I went to graduate school for American and New England studies, which is like interdisciplinary American history. And I actually came to it from an art history [00:14:00] background. I have a background in visual culture, and it's a where for grad school visual culture and also material culture, which is to say, stuff, objects. On a whim, my husband and I moved to Marblehead, Massachusetts, which is a small town on the water close to modern-day Salem.
[00:14:19] We're having this conversation in October, and there was just an article on Boston Globe about how like a hundred thousand people came to Salem for Halloween and running streets. Salem is a town of 40,000 people. I can't even wrap my head around how many people they cramming in this season. And a lot of people come to Salem for Halloween. It's like Halloween Central, and understandably.
[00:14:41] But it was interesting to me while I was living in Marblehead and I was studying history. And I was living in a house that was built in 1705. And so one thing I have to say is people associate me so closely with Salem, because I've written so much Salem fiction. I grew up in [00:15:00] Houston, Texas. Okay. So the oldest building extant in Houston, Texas is a wine bar that was originally built as a bakery, and it's from 1856. So the oldest building in the entire city that I grew up in is six years younger than the new edition of the house that I was living in in Marblehead, Massachusetts. Earlier, when I was talking about having a sense of being home but being a stranger there. I brought my new south eyes to this incredibly old environment, because Marblehead has the biggest collection of century houses in the entire country. They even have more than Colonial Williamsburg, for instance, except that in Marblehead, the houses have been continually occupied.
[00:15:46] On the second floor of the house was an apartment, but the house had been a single-family house, been carved into apartments. Pine floors were like foot wide, and the ceilings were incredibly low. Like, you couldn't stretch your arms over your head, cuz [00:16:00] the ceilings were so low. And this is actually when I learned for the first time, talking material culture, that bed headboards actually have a function. They're not just decorative. And I discovered this, because we were so broke in grad school that we would turn the heat down as far as we could manage.
[00:16:16] And so the room that we used as our bedroom, ice would form on the inside of the windows, because it was so cold, and we were so broke. And so when we were first living there, we had this futon I'd brought with me from Texas, of course. And there was no headboard on the futon. And so we were freezing, just like having your head up by this wall with ice on the window. We were freezing cold. And it wasn't until we got like a bed with a headboard, we like, "oh, this is a lot warmer. This is great." We just only then did I discover that a headboard really is important, at least if you're living in New England.
[00:16:48] And in this room, the bedroom that we had was tucked under the eaves of the lean-to part of a house. So if you're familiar with colonial architecture, houses tended to be built in stages. You'd have room here and a [00:17:00] room here, and you have maybe you'd add a second floor and you might add a lean-to in the back to add some extra space. So we were in what had been the lean-to, and there was a little door that went into the back stair, and over the back stair, there was this little horseshoe-shaped charm over the back door that had been painted over. And of course, horseshoes are something that I think all over the country, we all recognize what they mean, and they mean that they're there for luck or for protection. And you see this all over the place. This is a piece of folk magic belief that is incredibly widespread, such that we don't even really notice it, as evidenced by the fact that you can buy horseshoe necklaces at Tiffany's, wherever. We don't even think about it anymore. But it was interesting to me to see this little remnant piece of magic. It wasn't a real horseshoe. It was clearly there. It was tiny. It was a charm. It had been made as a charm, sold as a charm.
[00:17:54] And so then I started looking around and noticing horseshoes wherever I went. And it got me thinking [00:18:00] between the fact that there was this little remnant magic shred, that there was that and also the fact that I was in this physical space that people had been moving through, who had been present when the trials were happening. Like we were only one town over from Salem, and, of course, when the trials were happening, people were traveling from towns all over the place to come and see, because it was a huge spectacle. People were talking about it.
[00:18:26] So there was one day when I was sitting and thinking, like, "someone's foot has been on this board, this actual board under my hand. The same foot was standing and watching what was going on." And something about that tangibility or that proximate tangibility was really moving to me, and it got me thinking about the humanity of people who were living through that very strange moment in time, cuz I feel like much of the time their humanity is elided by our presentist biases or what have you. I feel like in [00:19:00] highly fantasy versions of witchcraft, the humanity of the people in the past is elided, and in, certainly in Arthur Miller, the actual humanity of people is alighted.
[00:19:12] I started thinking about what became the story in Physick Book from that perspective, from like occupying this very weird, specific physical space as a stranger and trying to think about what it meant to be in that space and like how it felt to be in this space, over this incredible span of years, and how, in one sense, the early modern period is this incredibly alien and remote time. Their understanding of how reality worked is very different from our understanding of how reality works. But at the same time, there are certain common elements of common humanity that persist, like lying in bed and being freezing cold, unless you have a headboard at your head, and so a lot of my fiction, my desire to write fiction came [00:20:00] from thinking about these common points of humanity across really wide, gaping spans of time.
[00:20:06] Josh Hutchinson: Can you give us a little background on what the situation was in Massachusetts Bay, when the witch trials started?
[00:20:17] Katherine Howe: A few things were happening. A question that I get a lot is, what is the proximate cause o f the Salem Witch crisis, what caused it? And the thing that I think is interesting about that question is that it suggests that it would be so much easier if there were just one cause, if we could just point to the thing, and be like, "oh, that's the thing."
[00:20:36] When we were corresponding, Josh, you mentioned the ergot hypothesis, that back in the seventies, somebody floated the idea that maybe all the afflicted girls had eaten moldy bread and were suffering from ergotism, and they were all tripping outta their mind. And that hypothesis was actually dismissed, I think, six months after it was first floated. But it still bubbles up periodically in [00:21:00] documentaries and popular discourses about Salem, because, and I think the reason that it doesn't go away is because it's so simple. It's so tidy to be like, "okay, that's the thing."
[00:21:11] And the truth of the matter is there isn't one thing. The way that I sometimes talk about it is that it's like a Venn diagram, and Salem is the point of the intersection of all the overlapping circles.
[00:21:24] So one overlapping circle is the very specific kind of religion that everyone in Salem adhered to. It was a world view that did not hold that there was anything outside of Christianity. So, for instance, the indigenous population that was already living in Massachusetts at that time, by virtue of not being adherents of Christianity in their very specific puritan worldview, that which is not Christian is by definition devilish, and it was actually Mary Beth Norton who's made the point that a lot of the language that the [00:22:00] people at Salem use to describe the devil is language that is used to describe indigenous people. So, one big Venn diagram circle is the specific religious and cultural moment that they're living in.
[00:22:15] Another diagram circle that we could point to is the weather, that the first panicky behavior that erupts with Betty Parris and with Abigail Williams, it starts in January, January, super cold in Massachusetts, cold, dark. The sun sets at 4:30 in the afternoon. And I'm not exaggerating, like it is dark AF. And and that's true in the 17th century, as it's today. And also in 1690s, North America was in miniature ice age. It was even colder and more bitter than it is now in Massachusetts.
[00:22:50] Another piece is pretty relentless class and gender context. The girls who first experienced symptoms that they describe as [00:23:00] fits are Betty Parris, daughter of Samuel Parris, who's the unpopular minister in Salem Village, Abigail Williams, who's his 11-year-old, she's described as being his niece, although that had a different meaning for them than it does for us today, but she was bound out to service.
[00:23:17] So can you imagine living in a culture where when you can't afford to feed your 11-year-old, you just give her to somebody to live with, for her to work for them? You just give her away. And so Abigail was this lonely, impoverished, starving, freezing child whose job it was to obey everyone all the time.
[00:23:42] Oftentimes, I think with great sympathy about Abigail Williams, poor Abigail, who, by the way, in Arthur Miller is turned into a 17-year-old temptress. She's a child. She's a child. And if you look at the descriptions of her behavior that are described as her being in her fits, a lot of her behavior sounds to me like playing, [00:24:00] like running around in circles and flapping your arms and saying, " whish" and saying that you're gonna fly at the chimney.
[00:24:05] Is that devilish possession, or is it an 11 year old girl being silly? And I feel like that is a, that is something that's worth thinking about. So there's the kind of class and gender politics, that's another big.
[00:24:16] So there are a number of different aspects, but you were asking about the politics and the charter. So this is another pretty big circle. So, typically in the early modern period in the colonies, if someone was accused as a witch, they would be accused and have a trial, and if they were found guilty, by the way, it's hard to find people guilty. They actually had a pretty high bar for for evidence at that time. Believe it or not, you could be tried and found guilty, and if you're found guilty, you could be put to death, and that could happen within a matter of weeks. Salem, the panic begins in January, the first hangings aren't until June. That's like a huge long span of time. And the reason for that long span of time is because the Glorious Revolution was unfolding.
[00:24:57] Back in England at that [00:25:00] time, Massachusetts Charter had expired, so they didn't have the legal wherewithal to hold a trial. That's why the Salem trial trials are conducted by a special Court of Oyer and Terminer. They basically had to convene like a special tribunal to deal with this problem that had come together. In fact, there's some historians who wondered if the Court of Oyer and Terminer didn't just deal with witchcraft. They were supposed to deal with all the rest of the backlog. But we just don't know what that backlog was, cause the records of the witch trials are what have survived.
[00:25:28] And then there's another piece of the Venn diagram, and we have to consider it. At the very beginning, the very first person who's accused as a witch is accused by Abigail and Betty and she's the only person who has less social and cultural power than they do. And they accuse Tituba or Titube Indian, who is an enslaved woman in the Parris household.
[00:25:50] So she's basically the only person who has less ability to protect herself than these children themselves do. And so Tituba's accused. She [00:26:00] has two confessions, and there's some evidence that she is beaten in between the two confessions. And in one of the confessions, Tituba introduces the idea of a conspiracy. She says that there is a group of witches at work in Salem Village. She doesn't know who they are or how many.
[00:26:20] And so at one point early on, there's actually a sermon is preached in Sermon Village that I'm gonna man the title, but it's something along the lines of "Christ Knows How Many Devils There Are." And so you have this idea of an unknown number of conspirators, who must be discovered. And when you have this undefined, invisible threat and also no legal relief, there's no like pressure valve that this tension could be released by, because of the like, unfortunate timing of the expiration of the charter.
[00:26:58] So you bring [00:27:00] all of these circles in the Venn diagram together, and that is why Salem gets as big as it does. And by the time Salem was over and done, 19 people were put to death and hundreds had been accused, hundreds in a period of time when a given town would only have a couple thousand people.
[00:27:16] Josh Hutchinson: That was a great, thorough explanation of how it took all these different factors to create the situation. It wasn't something, a single bullet theory, that you can put to rest.
[00:27:32] Katherine Howe: But I think one reason that, that we keep craving for simplicity is because with a simple explanation for why than it's easier to consign, to history. It'd be so much more encouraging or it'd be such a relief to be able to say, "Oh, it was air got poisoning. No big deal. That's all." But like the fact that it, what really was at stake was this intersection of circumstances and that everyone who was a participant in [00:28:00] Salem pretty much believed that they were doing the right thing. Not only the right thing, but the necessary thing to save their community. That to me is also a moving but also terrifying thing to remember and to realize.
[00:28:13] Because certainly we all, we've all lived through moments where we are convinced that we're doing the right thing, only to see ourselves perpetuating horrors, and that is I think that's one of the reasons we as a culture are never really able to let go of Salem.
[00:28:25] Sarah Jack: You said, " as a culture, we're never able to let go of Salem." Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote, " shall we never get rid of this past? It lies upon the present like a giant's dead body." I'm wondering what you think you would write now about that.
[00:28:43] Katherine Howe: Hawthorne in particular is someone who, like he personally, so felt the weight of Salem's past in a very personal way, because he was a descendant of Judge Hathorne, obviously. And because he was living there himself, and for many [00:29:00] generations, in fact, much during much of the time period when Hawthorne was living in Salem, the witch trials were not discussed in polite society. This was true into the 20th century, actually. They were not discussed. It was not something that was brought up. It's certainly something my family never talked about until this is something that my, my aunt uncovered. There was a sense of embarrassment attached to it, I think.
[00:29:23] But I'm also intrigued by the fact that when Hawthorne has tried to grapple with it, and he has tried to grapple with it, he took the line from he, he knew what had happened. Like he took a line from Sarah Good and put it in the mouth of Matthew Maule, in The House of the Seven Gables.
[00:29:39] Was it Hawthorne who grumbled about "damn scribbling women?" I think it was. I think it was. And so this is me tweaking his nose a little bit, but Sarah Good. Sarah Good was a beggar. Okay. She was destitute. She was one of the first people accused, because she was in no position to defend herself. She was thrown into jail. She has a baby on her and like [00:30:00] toddler, essentially with her, the baby dies while they're in jail. The toddler, whose name is Dorothy, ends up losing her mind and has to be like supported by the town after the trials are all over. So like this person is in absolutely dire straits and is and suffers mightily at the hands of the community where she lives and who's supposed to be helping them.
[00:30:23] And when she's on the scaffold, she says the most badass thing anyone has ever said in history of time, my unbiased opinion. She says, "I'm no more than a witch than you are a wizard, and if you take away my life, God will give you blood to drink." And I wish I had that kind of wherewithal, because who has that kind of wherewithal under in those circumstances?
[00:30:45] And so Hawthorne takes this line, Hawthorne knows it's happened, and he puts this line in a guy, in a guy's mouth. I understand that he's writing in the 19th century. I get it. But at the same time, I think it's impossible to [00:31:00] look at Salem and not consider gender politics in place. The fact that virtually everyone who's accused and put to death was a woman. Any man who was accused cuz he's associated with a woman who was already accused. Giles Corey was crushed to death between stones. He's accused cuz his wife, Martha's accused first, but also the accusers are initially children, but then also women. So there's a really intense gender politics in place here.
[00:31:28] So your question was, the past lying with the weight of the giant and what would Hawthorne say today? And I'm actually curious what Hawthorne would say about it today. I think he would sympathize with, or maybe be aggravated by the fact that we're still having the conversation that he was having a hundred and fifty years ago. But at the same time, I feel like we're talking about different things from what he was concerned. And and also I think he would be really annoyed because I write novels. I'm a woman.
[00:31:58] Sarah Jack: I [00:32:00] love that you brought up that he took Sarah's words and gave them to a man, because it just dawned on me very recently that Ann Putnam didn't read her own apology. I just assumed, and I think that possibly other descendants, we read that, we think I don't know what we really think about it. We're evaluating what it says anyways, but we're doing that with her voice in our head, and no, it was not.
[00:32:30] Katherine Howe: One thing that, that continues to interest me, as a history person, about Salem is that it's one of the rare instances when regular people are at the center of the store. So much of history, especially the further you go into the past, the vast majority of people who've been alive in history of ever, have left no record of themselves. They weren't literate, they weren't of sufficient note to have their burial place noted, [00:33:00] and so much of history, even academic history, as it's gotten more serious about excavating stories, just by the nature of the way that archives come to exist, there's still going to be a bias towards power.
[00:33:13] There's gonna be a bias towards privilege and a bias towards power, and, when it comes to Salem, that is one of the rare instances where the bias towards power falls away, because the people who are at the center of the drama are regular people, and where historians have put the work in to try to excavate what is able to be excavated of these lives that otherwise would've been invisible to us.
[00:33:40] Would we have known Abigail Williams ever existed, if she hadn't been part of the Salem Witch Trials? We would not have? And in fact, even with her central position at the beginning of the panic, we don't know what happened to her. We don't know where she went. We don't know how old she was when she died. Nobody actually knows for sure.
[00:33:56] And so particularly talking about people who are not literate, Anne [00:34:00] Putnam had her confession read. If I remember correctly, Anne Putnam wasn't literate. And so you're right in saying here's this apology that she delivered in front of everybody and that it was read on her behalf. To what extent was she the author of her own apology? And it's impossible to say. It's impossible to know.
[00:34:19] And it's one of the reasons that you've touched on one of my rant buttons, I'm sorry to report, but as a writer of historical fiction, like I have so little patience for historical fiction about kings and queens. I don't give a damn about kings and queens. Who cares? They get enough attention, they have enough records, they're all literate, everyone documents every single thing that they do. And I do not give a damn, because history pays them enough attention, and I'm so much more interested in trying to excavate the history of people who would otherwise be forgotten.
[00:34:54] Sarah Jack: I caught that from you reading Conversion, because [00:35:00] your main character, Colleen, she's getting to give us the firsthand experience like no other afflicted person was able to do.
[00:35:09] Katherine Howe: Thank you for saying that. I confess I haven't looked at Conversion in kind a long time. You're making me think I should look at it again, cuz there's actually a group of high school students who are reading it right now and I'm gonna talk to next week. I should read that book.
[00:35:22] But I appreciate you saying that, because I feel like, like one question I sometimes wrestle with as a history person and someone who's a novelist is what does historical fiction have to offer that nonfiction doesn't have to offer? Like, why not just write a really good history of something?
[00:35:38] And I feel like in many instances, in the cases where a story cannot be recovered, that's where historical fiction can be a really wonderful intervention. If you can build a credible world with credible material culture, and credible details, and credible politics, and credible ideology, and then [00:36:00] people it with people who are credible people, it is a way of accessing history that otherwise is not extant, where it doesn't exist.
[00:36:11] Is there going to be some imagination involved? Obviously, but it is, I feel like that's where the opportunity lies. And I realize we've gotten off Salem a little ,bit and I apologize, but it's something that I think about a lot. Like, particularly for some, a story that's as revisited as often as the Salem story is, what does fiction have to offer? Like why tell a fictional version of this story? I feel like fiction gives you permission to fill in and shade in stories that where there just is no other shading available. And that to me seems like the real area of opportunity for storytelling.
[00:36:52] Josh Hutchinson: I wanted to ask you about the afflicted girls. Do you think it's plausible that conversion disorder could [00:37:00] explain some of the fits?
[00:37:01] Katherine Howe: Yes and no. I'll explain that hedge of an answer. For one thing I find it always a little bit tricky to apply contemporary psychoanalytic categories to people in the past. Like on the one hand, I believe very urgently in, the shared humanity of people in the past, but at the same time, like we take as natural so many habits of mind that are actually very historically contingent. The fact that you and I might casually talk about what our dreams mean or what our subconscious motivations might be for something like that is indicative of post-psychoanalytic. And I think it's tricky to try to access the interior light of people who are living in a different moment, especially a moment like the early [00:38:00] modern in Massachusetts. It's even hard for a scholar of that time period to really grasp the extent to which Christianity informed every, single aspect of existence.
[00:38:15] So for my second novel I was working on. No, it's Physick Book. I was reading up about alchemy, and like we know about alchemy as this pseudoscientific practice in early modern practice in which someone tries to turn that into gold. Okay, fine. But that's actually not what it was. It is actually a way of understanding the order of the universe that took as scientific fact the perfectability of the human soul.
[00:38:41] There's this tense layering of religion and materiality and mirroring of structures and images like, like as soon as I would get close to thinking I understood alchemical thought, it would slither out of my grasp. And I would realize this because I'm just [00:39:00] too much of someone born in the 20th century to, to I will never actually really understand that intellectual landscape.
[00:39:09] So when you ask can conversion disorder explain the girls' behavior? Like in a way yes. But in another way I don't know that we can actually really understand their selfhood, the way that these girls thought about themselves or understood themselves as individuals.
[00:39:28] It's just very different from the way that we think. It's very different. So that there's that qualification. With that qualification in place, I would say that, so conversion disorder is where you are under so much stress that your body converts it into physical symptoms. And then mass psychogenic illness is when a group of people experience strange behavior together.
[00:39:56] And there are many examples of mass psychogenic illness [00:40:00] or mass psychogenic illness expressions of conversion disorder, and many examples of it across cultures, across time, across continents, across ethnicities. And it very often happens among adolescent girls, for whatever reason. Maybe cause we are conditioned to be more like socially engaged with other people. Who knows? You can try to explain it a number of different ways.
[00:40:22] But it's not only adolescent girls. I think that it is, this is gonna be a controversial thing to say, but like the recent incidences of Havana Syndrome are pretty clearly an example of mass psychogenic illness. Now it's important to say that mass psychogenic illness is real. It counts as a real thing. It's not just people like, it's not all in your head. You know what I mean? Like the fact that it is, that it has its origin in mental disorder doesn't make it any less real to the body. Conversion disorder is a disorder. It is your body being sick. It's just that the sickness originates [00:41:00] from inside your own organism. That doesn't make it count less. You know what I mean?
[00:41:03] All of which is to say, did a group of girls start exhibiting strange behavior? Yes. Did it spread from girl to girl on networks of kinship and friendship? It did. But at the same time, their behavior, when you say "fits" today, that has a very specific connotation. And it sounds like a epileptic seizure or something like that to, to us today. If I say, "Oh my gosh, I just saw this person have a fit." You'd be like, "Oh no." And you'd imagine that they fell down twitching and foaming at the mouth, but that's not what they were doing.
[00:41:32] What they were doing was behaving out of the ordinary. So like earlier we were talking about Abigail running around flapping her wings and saying, her arms, and saying, "whish, whish, whish." That is her in her fits. Or like another instance of Abigail in her fits is when she challenges Deodat Lawson to name his text. She like gets up in the middle of church and like mouths off to this very famous divine and rolls her eyes about how boring it's gonna be when he reads his text. That's [00:42:00] not her having a fit. That's her misbehaving.
[00:42:02] But her behavior was such a challenge to the gender and economic power structure that was in place while she was living. It was so out of the ordinary that her community could only chalk it up to devilish influence because it was that unimaginable that she would behave this way.
[00:42:20] So was there a social illness aspect to the afflicted girl's behavior? I feel certain, yes. So that, that's my long and qualified example about or discussion of conversion disorder.
[00:42:34] Josh Hutchinson: Do you think that they were really afraid of witches and that the fear of witches might have also translated?
[00:42:43] Katherine Howe: Sure. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think the fear was real. I think it is a mistake to either chalk it up as craven opportunism or as naked stupidity or superstition. One of [00:43:00] the things that I think is important, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt who live in the past and that is that like absolutely they were afraid.
[00:43:08] Can you imagine, what does it feel like to live in a world where you really, actually, honest to gosh believe that the devil can go walk about on the earth, as a real person and that he can disguise himself as people you know and love and trust? That at any given time, I could be talking to you right now, Josh, and you could be the devil in disguise, and I wouldn't know it.
[00:43:30] That's a and if you really believe that, you really do believe that, and you actually really believe that hell is a real place that you can go there if you make a mistake. That there is no, this is another like aspect of puritan belief, that like they believed in the elect. The idea that you have no way of saving yourself. That your being saved was only up to God, and you had no control [00:44:00] over it whatsoever. Like what? You couldn't go to confession. You couldn't do penance. You could try your best to behave, but it was ultimately just up to God.
[00:44:10] What an existentially dreadful way to live your life, to have no certainty. It's a little, a really hard life, first of all, and to believe that there was such a thing as paradise after death, but to have no idea whether or not you got to go there and that nothing you did made any difference. And that everywhere, at every turn, the devil was waiting to trip you up. Like that would be a difficult and impossible mental landscape to occupy.
[00:44:44] So yes, if your question was did they really believe in witchcraft and was that fear, could not fear contribute to their behavior? Like absolutely. What a terrifying way to live, and also what a relief. Like one of the reasons that I think witches [00:45:00] was such a persuasive idea for so many people at that time was wouldn't it be great if something was going bad in your life, to be able to not try to see it as a sign of God's Ill favor, but instead to have someone to blame for it? To be like, "it's not me. I'm not messing up here. Someone's doing this to me."
[00:45:20] I think that's also very human, that human feeling. It's not just bad luck or misfortune or like the luck of the draw, and it's so much more of a, "no, this person doing something to me. They wish me ill, and that's why my life is hard." I think that's a very human way to be.
[00:45:39] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We talked a little about Anne Putnam, Jr.'s apology earlier, and she still does that in her apology. "The devil made me do it."
[00:45:49] Katherine Howe: And Samuel Sewall does the same thing, like the two big apologies that come about after Salem is over after everything's done are Ann Putnam's and [00:46:00] Samuel Sewall's apology. But Samuel's apology, too, is weird where he like, first of all, he comes to it. It's not that he stops believing in witchcraft or stops believing that there is an invisible world. He comes to it after a series of wonders and marbles, including, if I remember correctly, like his house being tilted with stones. Who knows what really happened? And maybe there was like a passing hailstorm is how it took it.
[00:46:22] But he comes to it after a series of wonders and marvels, and he comes to believe that the devil tricked them all. That it wasn't that that the devil wasn't luring people into witchcraft. Instead, the devil obscured the minds of the people who are supposed to keep the community safe. And but also what a horrifying thing to, to come to believe about yourself. To look back at your actions and think you're doing the right thing, and think that you are saving your community from the most threatening presence that your imagination can come up with, and instead to conclude that, no, what happened [00:47:00] was that threatening presence tricked you. That you were so weak that you were fooled. Like what a, what a heinous thing to believe about yourself. It's a very punishing worldview that they subscribe to.
[00:47:16] Josh Hutchinson: Do you see any modern parallels to the Witch hunt?
[00:47:20] Katherine Howe: Sure. A few years ago a historian of witchcraft named John Demos published a book about witch hunting, in which he has a chapter about the 1980s daycare satanism thing that happened, much of which I was only dimly aware of, being a small person in 1980s myself.
[00:47:41] But what happened was, a group of people were put on trial, actually put on trial and actually convicted of having you run a daycare center and used the children in satanic rituals. And at the time that it was happening, and this is preposterous, like I, it's actually just like on the surface of it, I [00:48:00] think preposterous. I think, taken out context, any of us looking at this would say, "this makes, this is ridiculous. Obviously this did not happen." And at the time that it was unfolding, John Demos saw it unfolding and he was like, "Oh my God, it's Salem all over again." Like the same pieces are in place, like the idea of a conspiracy, the idea of trusted people that you cannot trust, the idea of children being at risk.
[00:48:24] And I think that you see some of the same hysteria and language. I don't like using the word hysteria, cuz it's such a specific word, but you see some of this in like contemporary corners of the conspiracy internet, where I try not to spend any time, but Isn't that Pizzagate? Isn't there some like thing not too long ago about worrying a particular pizzeria was like putting kids at risk in this same kind of way? Like you see the same kind of like at any time that someone worries that children are at risk, there will be a lot of open-mindedness about it.
[00:48:55] But of course, here's me getting political. Like, of course, children actually literally are at [00:49:00] risk by, by school shooting, right? Like the one thing that would really keep children really safe in places where they're supposed to feel safe and trust people around them, is if they restricted access to military assault weapons. That's my opinion. My opinion is that if we really care about keeping children safe, we take those guns off the street, right, full stop. But feel free to send me hate mail. I can be reached to KatherineHowe.com/contact.
[00:49:21] Sarah Jack: So I think asking the question about are there parallels, we have these modern parallels that are popping into our heads. We have our strong feelings, but what can the understanding of the Colonial Witch trials and those before do to help us with these parallels? Can it help us? Will it help?
[00:49:43] Katherine Howe: I'd like to think that it can. One of the things that I like to say when talking about Salem is that I feel that one of the reasons we can't let Salem go. As a culture, like we come back to it and we, like we can't let it go.[00:50:00]
[00:50:00] And I feel that the reason that we can't let it go, among the many reasons, but I think one of the big reasons is that it forces us to confront how fragile our ideals really are. We are an unusual country in that in many respects, we are, notwithstanding those of us who were brought here against our will, which is many of us, but broadly construed, you could argue that we are something of an intentional community.
[00:50:26] That the only thing that really holds us together is this set of shared ideals, and that some of our shared ideals include religious freedom. They include a social safety net. That we value people who are different from us, that we value people who are vulnerable. " Bring us you're tired, your poor, your huddled masses." Like that, that arguably this is an ideal that we hold in common. This is an organizing principle of the culture in which we live.
[00:50:52] And yet Salem is this instance where everybody, believing they were doing the [00:51:00] absolute right thing, instead put to death, the state put to death 19 people. That, in the course of doing the right thing, the state did the absolute wrong thing, and they also put to death people who were, many of them were vulnerable in their community. People who were more likely to be accused were those who were at the most vulnerable, who were the most out step vulnerable in community. And so I feel like Salem is an instructive moment for that, because here's this moment where, in the course of being convinced of our total moral authority and correctness, a huge miscarriage of justice took place.
[00:51:41] And I think that's a really difficult thing to reconcile. And I think especially for a country like ours, where also so many of us are brought up to look to the colonial period for our origin, that we're told, rightly or wrongly, that we are taught to look into the 18th, and to a lesser [00:52:00] extent the 17th century, and see in it the seeds of the country that we would become.
[00:52:04] Maybe that's another way of thinking about it. Like another way of thinking about it, is it more productive to think about what we want the future to look like than it is to try to think about what the past has to tell us? That's a question. That's a question that I think is interesting. One, particularly for an intentional community like ours. We have, we get to reinvent ourselves as a country, and we get to decide, and what kind of place do we want to be? Do we want to be the kind of place that protects vulnerable people? Do we want to be the kind of place that protects people who are at risk, who are different from us, who are angry, who are grumpy, who read too many books? I would prefer to live in a place that protects those kinds of people. But we get to choose We choose who we protect.
[00:52:47] Sarah Jack: We can make that choice, and not only is it going to stop suffering here, there are places in this world that are still totally captured [00:53:00] by doing the wrong thing, thinking they're doing the right thing, witch hunting. This discussion it is about us here, but it's about us there.
[00:53:10] You have referred to time so much. That is such a strong piece of this. Even in Conversion, one of the simple quotes you have says, "any number of things could happen in the time it took to go down the hall." You like go right to the time thing. And today when you started talking, you talked about time. And I look at the history, I look at us now, how do we all get caught up on this witch-hunting mentality and start looking out for humanity and protecting other?
[00:53:42] Katherine Howe: It's a hard thing. It's a really hard thing. And I wish I had easy answers for it. I think simply the act of reflection and awareness is an important one. Stopping to interrogate what our assumptions are.
[00:53:56] Josh Hutchinson: We've talked about a lot of heavy things. [00:54:00] I wondered if we could switch and discuss your new book project. What can you tell us about it?
[00:54:06] Katherine Howe: Oh, so many things. So I'm obsessed with pirates, who isn't? Hopefully, the answer is everyone is obsessed with pirates.
[00:54:13] So I have a book coming out in fall, and I think they're gonna let me keep the title. And you. Okay, Josh, Sarah, you guys have to tell me what you think of the title. You ready? So get comfortable, here it is: A True Account of Hannah Masury's Sojourn Amongst the Pyrates, Written by Herself. That's the title. It's a mouthful.
[00:54:30] It starts in Boston in 1726 at a very real an actual pirate trial that really did happen. Like most of my stuff, it's, it is grounded in actual facts and then becomes what I'm describing as a little bit like Gone Girl meets Treasure Island. And I had so much fun with it, and I'm really excited about it. And it is a little bit of a departure from what I've done, but it is about a girl, Hannah Masury, who has to disguise herself in order to escape some pretty heavy circumstances. And [00:55:00] she ends up basically stealing away on what turns out to be a pirate ship. And we have to follow her on her adventures.
[00:55:06] And I have so much fun with some basic pirate tropes. There is treasure, there is a parrot. It's so much fun, and there's also some, a little bit of romance, and I have the most fun ever.
[00:55:18] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds like a fun one to read.
[00:55:22] Katherine Howe: I really hope so.
[00:55:24] Sarah Jack: I'm so delighted by what I just heard.
[00:55:28] Katherine Howe: That makes me very happy. Makes me very happy. It's weird because it's one of the, it's probably the most violent book I've written. If y'all have read my stuff, then you know I'm a teensy bit squeemish and shy away from. So there's some violence in this book, but what's strange about it is, I didn't invent any of it. It is actually all from historical record. I take no responsibility whatsoever for any of the stuff that happens in this book, because it all ripped from the headlines. It all really happened.
[00:55:55] Josh Hutchinson: And was Hannah herself based on a real person?[00:56:00]
[00:56:00] Katherine Howe: Hannah is based on a couple of people. She's inspired in part by real accounts of Anne Bonny and Mary Read, who are two working-class women, who ended up disguising themselves as men and going raiding in Jamaica at the end of the 17th century. They were real people ,and there was a real Hannah Masury ,who I talk about a little bit in the author's note of the book. She was a 19th-century person, and she ended up, I was inspired when I came across her. She was the wife of a ship captain. She was married to a ship captain, and she ended up putting down a mutiny by herself, armed only with a pistol, in the Pacific Ocean.
[00:56:39] And so I read about her, and she didn't have any children, and I was like, "oh my gosh, I am obsessed with you." And so I decided to name my awesome pirate after her. Hannah, Hannah comes from a couple of different sources, but I really like her as a person. She's a tough character .
[00:56:56] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds like it. You said that it's set [00:57:00] around a pirate trial in Boston?
[00:57:03] Katherine Howe: Yeah, it starts, the action starts in Boston in 1726, and in 1726, it's the end of the golden age of piracy. It's actually funny that the Salem period, like the witch craze, the end of the witch craze and golden age of piracy are at the same time period, which I think is interesting. And a guy named William Fly was tried as a pirate, and the person who ministered to him and preached about him was none other than Cotton Mather .
[00:57:32] So Cotton Mather by then was this like hugely famous, successful cleric. He was really rich. He was, like, had a very popular ministry and so he had taken it upon himself to crusade against piracy. So he tries to bring William Fly and his compatriots back to God, and he's there when they're hanged. William Fly was hanged, and then he was gibbeted. He was, his body was hung in chains on a tiny island in the Boston Harbor Islands and [00:58:00] left there to rot. He was really avid as a warning to other people who might go out on the account, which is a way of describing going, turning pirate.
[00:58:09] And so I was fascinated by this. It was only a hundred years later that excursion boats are starting to leave Boston. Like steam boats are going from Boston to Nahant. This is no time all. To think that you could go by Nixes Mate, which is where William Fly was hanged and chained. You could go by there and to see you remnant oft remain dangling there.
[00:58:29] So that's where the action begins at William Fly's trial, and things even crazier.
[00:58:36] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds like a fun ride. .
[00:58:38] Katherine Howe: I'm excited for it. I'm not sure when it's coming out. I think it's gonna be November, 2023. So it's coming up.
[00:58:46] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with an important update on what's happening now in your world.
[00:58:51] Sarah Jack: Thank you for listening a few minutes longer to hear End Witch Hunts World Advocacy News. How many innocent world citizens [00:59:00] is it okay to accept as suffering from violent brutalization, due to harmful practices related to accusations of harmful witchcraft and ritual attacks? These attacks are happening now to thousands of innocent people, who are not causing supernatural harm but are being punished by their community, as if they are the ultimate explanation.
[00:59:20] They are innocent, not dangerous witches. These attacks are happening across countries of Africa and Asia. Please see the show notes for links to read about how some countries have advocacy groups working to intercede. When there is not an answer for unexpected bad luck, unfortunate death, or personal misfortune, blaming others for supernatural malevolence is the actual crime. This witch fear is still causing unfounded, violent attacks against women, children, and sometimes men. Listen and watch for the reports. These attacks are reported on.
[00:59:55] The Northern Ireland borough of Larne wants to [01:00:00] commemorate eight Witch trial victims from the Islandmagee Witch Trial that took place on March 31st, 1711. A borough counselor raised questions very recently of whether the eight women and a man who were found guilty of witchcraft were actually innocent. In the trial era, using witchcraft was a covenant with the devil against the victims. When this counselor questioned if it is within the counsel's capacity to say they were innocent, he's questioning if the accused were indeed working with the devil himself to cause harm.
[01:00:32] Is it within human capacity to not assign witch harm guilt onto others? I want to answer that question right now. Yes, it is within our capacity to stop questioning other people about their status as a supernaturally harmful witch. It is our duty to stop questioning accused witch innocence, past or present. These accused people were not, and today's accused witches are not, causing the supernatural harm that is feared of them.
[01:00:59] [01:01:00] This week, academic research was published that is "a new global data set on contemporary witchcraft beliefs ." It has determined that witchcraft beliefs cut across sociodemographic groups, but are less widespread among the more educated and economically secure. Country-level variation in the prevalence of witchcraft beliefs is systematically linked to a number of cultural, institutional, psychological, and socioeconomic characteristics. Altogether, the resulting data set covers more than 140,000 individuals from 95 countries and territories and 5 continents. Over 40% of all survey respondents claim to believe in witchcraft. Stay tuned for a discussion on this research outcome. Find a link to the report in the show notes.
[01:01:48] While we watch and wait, let's support the victims across the world where innocent people are being targeted by superstitious sphere. Support them by acknowledging and sharing their stories. Please use all your communication channels to be an [01:02:00] intervener and stand with them. The world must stop hunting witches. Please follow our End Witch Hunt movement on Twitter @_endwitchhunts. And visit our website, endwitchhunts.org.
[01:02:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah, for that eye-opening update.
[01:02:16] Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[01:02:21] Sarah Jack: Join us next week for a special Connecticut witch trial victim descendant episode.
[01:02:31] Josh Hutchinson: And join us in our efforts to end modern witch hunts. Go to endwitchhunts.Org.
[01:02:38] Sarah Jack: Subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen.
[01:02:41] Josh Hutchinson: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[01:02:44] Sarah Jack: Remember to tell your friends that you love what you've been hearing on Thou Shalt Not Suffer, so that they will not miss out.
[01:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[01:02:56] [01:03:00]
Presenting author and communications professional Greg Houle. He discusses his upcoming novel, “The Putnams of Salem”. Listen as he gives us a glimpse of what he imagines the first person perspective could have been for Ann Putnam Jr, and her father Thomas Putnam. What role did they play in the trials? His fictional short stories are linked below. We continue the conversation inquiring with our advocacy questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches? Links: Greg Houle Website
[00:00:00] Josh Hutchinson: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18.
[00:00:05]
[00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to another episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:33] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:35] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is Greg Houle, an author currently working on a novel about the Putnams of Salem.
[00:00:43] Sarah Jack: Because you like the show, please share it with your friends, family, and followers.
[00:00:47] Josh Hutchinson: We hope you're enjoying a wonderful Thanksgiving. Have a slice of Turkey for me.
[00:00:53] Sarah Jack: Share the mashed potatoes.
[00:00:55] Josh Hutchinson: Pass that gravy.
[00:00:58] Sarah Jack: This is a great topic for [00:01:00] Thanksgiving. I'm looking forward to talking to a Putnam of Salem descendant.
[00:01:06] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and we hope this episode gives you lots of conversation ideas for your Thanksgiving dinner.
[00:01:15] Sarah Jack: Especially if you've been having boundary disputes with your friends or family.
[00:01:21] Josh Hutchinson: Make a peace offering, and be sure to watch Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, the best Thanksgiving anything ever made, hands down.
[00:01:33] Sarah Jack: But only after you watched Holly Hunter's Home for the Holidays.
[00:01:36] Josh Hutchinson: Then get back to your Walking Dead marathon. That's what you're really watching. Or House of the Dragon.
[00:01:42] Sarah Jack: And now Josh is gonna tell us some history about the Putnams of Salem.
[00:01:47] Josh Hutchinson: The Putnams of Salem Village were instigators of the Witch Hunt. Thomas Putnam and his brother, Edward, were two of the four men who [00:02:00] filed the first complaints against Sarah Good, Sarah Osborne, and Tituba. Thomas went on to make 35 complaints, testify against 17 people, and record 120 depositions, including those of his daughter Ann Putnam, Jr., who was the first villager outside of the parsonage to be afflicted. Later on, she was joined by her mother Ann Putnam, Sr. and their maid, Mercy Lewis, among the ranks of the afflicted. The Putnam family was an important family in the village for three generations. 12 out of the original 25 villagers to sign the church covenant were Putnams, and they ranked among the top taxpayers in the village, along with the Porters.
[00:02:55] After accusing many people and going through [00:03:00] all her theatrics in the courtroom, Ann Putnam, Jr. did apologize in 1706, specifically to Rebecca Nurse's family, but also to the whole village, as she joined the church under the new minister, Joseph Green.
[00:03:17] Sarah Jack: Thank you for introducing us to the Putnams of Salem. I cannot wait to get more of these details from Greg.
[00:03:23] Josh Hutchinson: You're welcome. I'm also looking forward to hearing this family covered in depth. They were so heavily involved, what they did in the witch trials, which was so much. So many Putnams were involved in so many ways.
[00:03:40] Sarah Jack: I'm so happy to welcome Greg Houle, writer of short fiction and author of The Putnams of Salem, coming 2025.
[00:03:49] Greg Houle: So I came into this story, the story of Salem and the Salem witch hysteria like a lot of people do, with a personal family connection to it.[00:04:00] My mother is a Putnam. She is a direct as descendant of Thomas Putnam, Jr., who, along with his oldest daughter Ann, were probably two of the most prolific accusers during the Salem witch hysteria. But yet, despite that connection, I really didn't have any interest in exploring the story as I was growing up. And in spite of having a really intense, lifelong interest in history, I really didn't care, and I think part of that was because of the fact that Salem is such a huge story, and it has a life of its own, and it's become this kind of larger than life almost true crime story.
[00:04:44] And I think a lot of times what has happened is it's deflected a lot of the attention away from the important things, the victims, why it happened, how can we prevent it from happening in the future, that [00:05:00] sort of thing. It was always an interesting thing to be connected to, so many of us are.
[00:05:04] Everything changed in the summer of 2021. And that is that summer, I live in LA now, and my wife and daughter went back east to visit our family, and my wife's family lives in Boston. And while we were there, we decided, let's go to Salem. And we went there, I thought, "Okay I really want to connect my daughter to my, her grandmother's side of the family. I really ought to understand the story better and really dig into it. "And that's really what I did.
[00:05:35] And as soon as I did that, I became immediately enamored by what was going on in the heads of someone like Thomas Putnam, Jr. and Ann. So you have someone who's accusing all of these people, and then you have another one who is said to be afflicted. And I started exploring [00:06:00] that. And this is the part that's unknowable for a historian. So we all wish we could be inside their heads and understanding what's going on during that time. I thought the best way to explore it would really be to look at the environment in which they were in, the things that led to Salem and what happened there and then really just use fiction at that point to tell the story, and, of course, no historian would ever use conjecture , but the beauty of fiction is you can do that. And I think what I tried to do initially in this short story and then now to much greater depth in the novel, is really explore that and look at the forces that created this really tragic event.
[00:06:54] The short story and the novel, at least a tentative title of the novel is The Putnams of Salem. [00:07:00] And there is a sort of subtitle that I'm throwing around. That's really The Fall of an American Family. Not sure how my family will feel about that, but it's what we find out in this story.
[00:07:14] And I think it's really quite fascinating when you think about all the different forces involved in the world that they were living. One of the major themes of the short story and the novel is really fear and the way in which fear drives a lot of what happens and the various types of fear and various sources of fear, from the fear that's inherent within the Puritan religion to fear of the native population. In the case of Thomas Putnam, there's fear of losing your place in society. The sense that throughout history there's the common case of [00:08:00] the patriarch of a family kind of building something, the second generation making it stronger, and then the third generation messing it up somehow. Thomas Putnam Jr. was the third generation of the Putnams in America, and it really does follow that trajectory. And I think it's really interesting when you insert this man into these circumstances and you see the way in which it drove him to do some pretty awful things.
[00:08:30] Josh Hutchinson: You've touched on it already, but how did you go from where you were doing your research into your family to deciding to write stories and then a novel about them?
[00:08:43] Greg Houle: Yeah, it's a great question. I, again, a lot of the impetus for this was my 12 year old daughter at the time and really wanting to connect her to this story in a way that I thought was meaningful. For me it was about really trying to get behind any [00:09:00] lore that existed within our family to the actual story, and it's not always easy to do when you're dealing with 17th century America. You can't always get every detail.
[00:09:14] In my family, there was not a lot of detail. I think there was always the sense of we are connected to this great American story, "great" in quotes, by the way. And isn't that fascinating? But I think, for me, my interest in history has always been about the fact that it is multi-dimensional and dynamic. I think what tends to happen with history is over time we flatten it out, and it becomes very one dimensional. So the sort of typical story of Salem is that it's these sort of fundamental crazy puritans who experience something one [00:10:00] day, start accusing women of witchcraft, and then put them to death. And while the basic facts may be true, there's so much more involved in that story. They lived in a different world than we live in today, obviously, but they still wanted to succeed.
[00:10:21] They laughed sometimes. They cried. They had fights, and they, wanted to be successful. And I think a lot of times we forget that. And in looking at the story, the part that really fascinated me was thinking about the context of this tragedy within that parameter.
[00:10:43] And so for me that's my entry point into this. And so when I really thought about both Thomas and Ann, I kept thinking, " what must be going on in our heads?" I think a lot of times our simple answer is Thomas [00:11:00] is a devout Puritan, and he believes wholeheartedly that all these people he's accusing are witches. And isn't that crazy? But the reality of the fact is that's probably not true, right? He was very strategic in his efforts. Again, we don't wanna have too much conjecture here and assume that we know everything that was going on, but, for me, I was fascinated by that.
[00:11:26] And then you also have Ann, who, in my writing of her, tried to present her as the sort of typical, idealized Puritan girl who's really trying to do all the right things and failing because of her affliction. We know that her afflictions are probably not a real thing, but they are something, and it's it's a sort of interesting juxtaposition between [00:12:00] the two of them. And that was what really fascinated me.
[00:12:03] Josh Hutchinson: For our listeners who aren't as familiar with the Putnams, can you explain Thomas's role in the trials?
[00:12:11] Greg Houle: The sort of patriarch of that family was John Putnam, who came over during the great Puritan migration, came over from England probably in the early 1630s. He was one of, not the initial group of settlers that settled Salem, but he was there a few years later. Pretty prominent landowner. But one of the things that the Putnams at least say that they always wanted to do was create this kind of communal society in Salem, where it was a little bit more, " we're not worried about individual wealth, we're gonna just try to bring everyone up."
[00:12:51] But again, this was at a time where everyone, where Puritans were much more sanguine about their prospects and in the new [00:13:00] world. And I think by the time we get to the witch hysteria 60 years later, everything, the shine has come off a little bit. But so John was the initial patriarch of the family, and then Thomas Sr. was, of course, Thomas Jr.'s father, and he built their land holdings. They were farmers. He was pretty privileged person, but things were different for him, and they weren't quite so easy. By the time we get to 1692, Thomas is still doing pretty well, and his family is pretty prominent.
[00:13:39] He was known as Sergeant Thomas Putnam, because he fought in King Philip's War, which was, some say, the bloodiest war in colonial American history, where it was, in many ways, almost like a akin to a world war in some respect. [00:14:00] It was fought throughout New England between the colonists and their Native allies and other native communities. I think by the time of the Salem witch hysteria, 1692, Thomas was a much different person than his father and his grandfather.
[00:14:21] I think that there are a couple of things that, that are going on. One is the realization that the Puritans are not going to have a shining city on the hill like they initially thought. Now, that doesn't mean that, that they weren't still trying, or they didn't still believe that they were superior in many ways. But I think they realized at that point that wasn't gonna be easy.
[00:14:49] The relationships that they had with the native populations in New England had really soured to the point where that [00:15:00] had created a lot of fear. You may have talked about the fact that they that Massachusetts did not have a charter at that time, had lost its charter. So there's a lot of uncertainty there. So I think, the way I portrayed in the novel and the short story, to some extent, is that Thomas is really this fading patriarch but family that is still prominent, but like a lot of people with power, he wants to do whatever it takes to keep that power, and this opportunity arises, and he takes advantage of it.
[00:15:35] Josh Hutchinson: What were some of the things that he did during the witch-hunt that stand out to mark him as a prominent figure?
[00:15:43] Greg Houle: So he accused many people of witchcraft. He also pretty much wrote all of the documents that needed to be submitted to court for Ann, so he was really orchestrating a lot of that. There [00:16:00] was also, as I'm sure you're aware, quite a rift in the community and had been for generations about who leads the church, and Thomas was very much in favor of the head of the church, Samuel Parris, but others were not. There was a lot of choosing sides there, and that became a big part of it as well.
[00:16:26] In terms of his actual role, he was there during the very first examinations of the first three witches when they were examined by the magistrates. The first three were Sarah Good, Sarah Osborne, and Tituba, who were three kind of outcasts. But he was there and playing a very prominent role. I think that he saw himself as a leader. He was, a military [00:17:00] leader and a fairly wealthy person with land, and I think he saw his role as being someone who should take a prominent role during a time like this. And he certainly did. And I think, certainly, as I explore in the novel, he uses that as an opportunity to really reshape the nature of his relationships.
[00:17:26] Sarah Jack: What you had just said about growing and securing their wealth with that land, I think that was a really big part of the fight, as well as having a stake in what was happening with the church.
[00:17:40] Greg Houle: That's a great point. I think that another interesting component with Thomas is his father, Thomas Sr., remarried at a very older age, so Thomas had a half brother who ended up inheriting a lot of what he was expecting to inherit. In many [00:18:00] ways, he comes across by 1692 as really just having this series of just one after another of what he would think are tragedies. But again, the thing I kept coming back to and what was fascinating to me was this idea that, you have this privileged person who's then throwing a fit because he's not getting his way every time.
[00:18:23] Maybe I'm projecting something that's 330 years old to today, but I really, that was the thing that I kept coming back to, and a lot of it is tied up in those land disputes and the endless lawsuits and the just no way to ever solve these problems, either in court or outside of court. And it really brought it to the forefront that you realize that they have a lot of these kind of frivolous and difficult problems that we all deal with [00:19:00] today. And I think, again, going back to what I said earlier, we tend to just have this very one dimensional view that they were this sort of whole community block that just all did, were in lockstep with each other, and it's just not like that.
[00:19:17] The other thing I explore in the novel and have fun with is their desire to gossip and just really spread these, rumors and innuendo and all of this other stuff. Obviously, a lot of it was part of the driving force of the accusations of witchcraft, but it's really tied up in the same disputes, those family squabbles. They were a big deal obviously, but they go back generations. When you start digging into it, you realize, you know, what a mess it actually is.
[00:19:56] Sarah Jack: And it sounds like getting to look inside [00:20:00] the Putnam family the way you are doing it with your novel is a way to redeem them.
[00:20:05] Greg Houle: That's a really great point. I hope so. There's a lot of redeeming that needs to be done. The one thing that I've never really been able to quite put my finger on, and I think it's really difficult, because we don't have full knowledge in the historical record, and that sort of thing is what role someone like Thomas really did play. I think, obviously, it's clear he made a lot of accusations.
[00:20:34] I'm making a lot of conjecture that was purposeful and political and driven by anger and annoyance and all these other things, but we don't really know how true that is. And we don't know if he got caught up with the people on his side of the argument. And so it's really one of those things where I want to be a little [00:21:00] careful. I certainly don't pull any punches and protect my family members, but I don't really know, and I've never really been able to pinpoint the role precisely that the Putnams played.
[00:21:15] And, for me, what's more interesting actually is to think about the role that Ann played as a 12 year old , because, you imagine a scenario where she is really believing that she has done something wrong, or she, like a lot of Puritans at the time, thinking that they've let the devil into their being and into their world. But then there's a part of me that thinks, "or was she just doing what her father wanted her to do?" so it becomes one of those things where those are the unknowable questions that I think are challenging for us to understand.
[00:21:55] But you can certainly, looking at the history, looking at [00:22:00] the situation of the Putnam family, you can see where they may have said, "hey, let's just make this thing happen. Let's just keep pushing it forward and see what we can do." And perhaps that was what happened, and that's what's so challenging about this, because we never really will know. But part of what's fun about writing historical fiction is you can then tell the story the way you want to tell it, right?
[00:22:27] Josh Hutchinson: I think the way that you're telling it is so important, because to understand how witch hunts happen, we need to get into the head of both sides of them. So we need to know the people who were making the accusations, what were they thinking, what was going on in their minds, so we can learn from that, and I think it's just terrific that you are exploring, getting inside the heads of Thomas and Ann in the way that you [00:23:00] are.
[00:23:00] Greg Houle: Thank you. I think you're right. That's the part that is just so fascinating. I think a lot of it, and certainly the work that you're doing here with the podcast is really touching on this as well, but I think we live in modern times, and I think we can't help but think about the way that works today, the way, you know, people are exposed to certain media and develop certain beliefs, and then that manifests itself in certain actions. And so I think the whole time that I've been working on this, that's always been in my mind is it's easy for us in a one dimensional world to say Thomas was just a leader in the community. He was a devout Puritan. He firmly believed that these women were evil, and he just [00:24:00] wanted to cleanse Salem, which, by the way, the novel is a dual narrative between, first person narrative with Thomas and Anne, and he's basically saying that the whole time, he's saying, "no, I'm just trying to cleanse our community."
[00:24:14] But I think as intelligent people, we know that cannot possibly be the case, that it isn't just black and white, that there may be an inkling of that there. We don't want to completely dismiss it, but it's just too convenient for him not to have taken the opportunity to, essentially, engage in behavior that resulted in the deaths of many needlessly.
[00:24:45] Josh Hutchinson: I like the way you frame it as, in the terms of, dimensions that we look at, history as this one dimensional black and white thing. And I like how you're getting into [00:25:00] the persons of these complicated people, getting into their minds and their characters to analyze them from a human perspective and make them three dimensional. I think that's very important to our modern understanding of how we operate today.
[00:25:18] Greg Houle: Yeah, that's right. I think it's a really important component anytime we look at history, I think, for anyone, and I'm sure you both feel the same way. Anyone who has real interest in history tends to be interested in the fact that it's really about people, right? And it's about decisions they make and then how those decisions affect other decisions. And this kind of long stretch of what occurs. And I think, a lot of times, people think of history as a series of events and things that happen at certain dates. And it really is about taking that three dimensional or [00:26:00] multidimensional view and really trying to understand what was going through the minds of people when these things were happening.
[00:26:07] I think the probably any legitimate historian listening to me would be very angry, because without actual historical record or information, you can't extrapolate what is actually happening. But I do think the value of something like historical fiction, in this case, is really trying to use your knowledge and the information you have to make those leaps a little bit and try to understand it.
[00:26:39] One thing I'll say about the novel is that I really tried hard to make it plausible. Obviously, I wasn't privy to what was going on inside of Thomas or Ann's mind, wasn't privy to a lot of conversations that they may have had with other people, but the world in which they lived [00:27:00] and the thinking that they had were, it's legitimate, and I'm trying to create something is realistic in terms of, how they would respond to those things. And I think, when you look today, at similar manifestations of persecution, you really do the same thing.
[00:27:23] Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about Ann Jr. And her struggles during all of this?
[00:27:31] Greg Houle: She, very early on, was afflicted, and I'm using the air quotes, and struggled a lot with various manifestations of that affliction. But one thing about Ann that you can tell from what sparse information is available about her, is that she was pretty well liked. And she seemed to, at [00:28:00] least the way I present her is, she was a good girl, I guess you could say, for lack of a better way of putting it, that she tried to live the way Puritan girls were meant to be living.
[00:28:15] What is very interesting, though, about Ann is in 1706, when she went back to the church in Salem and requested to take communion and become a member of the church. And that was when she essentially apologized, although it was a semi apology.
[00:28:42] Sarah Jack: I think readers would love to hear what she was thinking around that. We have the apology, but I wanna know what she was thinking. I've seen so many family researchers or descendants of the accused talk about that, and they have different [00:29:00] perspectives, which I always enjoy reading. Some feel that it was very acceptable, especially based on what her beliefs of the devil's work in her life would've been. Others think it was not really good enough. Getting to hear what was going on in her mind around the apology would be really interesting.
[00:29:20] Greg Houle: I agree. It's a very rare example for us to hear from someone who was involved so early on being also involved at the end like this. My view is that Ann was a broken woman at that time, and my thinking, and again I wanna preface this by saying, "of course I could be completely wrong here," but my thinking is that, by that point, everyone knew, of course, that what happened in 1692 was this horrible thing, and she was this last vestige of that. And so [00:30:00] my read of the situation is that she is this outcast, and at the end of the novel, there's a sort of epilogue where this comes up, and the pastor, Pastor Green at the time, is hesitating and thinking, "do I really wanna let this person back into the church? I worked so hard to try to bring us back together." And, ultimately, of course, does, because she really has nothing else.
[00:30:29] Both her parents died the same year, in 1699. She never married. By all accounts, her experience was the kind of thing that basically ruined her life. And by the time 1706 rolls around, she basically just realizes that the only thing she has is the church, and she'll do anything to be a part of it. So that's my read. Now, whether or not it is sincere,[00:31:00] I think it's really hard to speculate about. I think that it's very plausible that it was not, but it's also plausible that, there is a way of thinking about it where Ann truly was an innocent victim. Not saying that's the case, but she may very well have manifested all of these afflictions and challenges and that she was encouraged by her father and others and that by the time they were all gone, she thought it was safe now to beg for mercy and try to live a life where she could be member of the church again.
[00:31:43] Sarah Jack: I had mentioned family researchers and descendants. I'm wondering, are you ready for other Putnam descendants and other descendants to reach out to you about the book you're writing?
[00:31:54] Greg Houle: You know, I really would love to hear what they have to say. I'm sure I could learn a lot [00:32:00] from those folks. So I really am interested in that. You know, I'm not someone who wants to defend the Putnams or what occurred here. So I'm happy to have those discussions. I think that's a very dangerous thing, so I would not wanna do that at all, but I would definitely love to hear what others know, and the Putnam family has a very important long legacy in New England, and there's a lot to be proud of, but this is not one of those events that anyone should be proud of.
[00:32:33] Sarah Jack: One of the things that you can be proud of is that there were seven Putnam that signed Rebecca Nurse's petition.
[00:32:41] Greg Houle: I think, you know, it speaks to another aspect of the Salem witch hysteria that really fascinates me, is how quickly it seemed to go south, right? The whole collection of events took place in a very short period of time, but it was like [00:33:00] all of a sudden the bottom fell out and everyone realized it was as if they woke up and realized what were we doing? And so that's something that I'm not really that knowledgeable about, would love to know more about, because I think it's really like a community of people realizing at that moment that they were on the wrong side of history and saying, "what are we doing? What have we done? How can we get out of it?" And I think, that's why we see some of this stuff happening so quickly after, and even maybe why we saw Ann petition to, to want to join the church again.
[00:33:40] Josh Hutchinson: I can totally relate to that. I'm a descendant of, among others, Joseph Hutchinson, who was one, along with Thomas Putnam, who complained against the original three suspects, but then later on he changes sides and defends Rebecca nurse. [00:34:00] So I've been exploring that a lot in my own mind, how you start off believing in this witchcraft and then at some point you realize you are on the wrong side of history.
[00:34:14] Greg Houle: The one thing I'll add to that is, when you think of the first three women who were accused, they were clearly outside the norm of late 17th century Puritan society. Tituba is a slave from the West Indies. Sarah Good is essentially homeless, for the most part. Sarah Osborne was always outside of the norms. In the beginning you think, "of course they're gonna be the ones who were accused." But it's interesting as the accusations continue to fly going forward. When you get to someone like Rebecca Nurse, who is not like those folks, and that she was [00:35:00] well respected, it's almost like the fire burned out of control, and you had a point where maybe people realized, "what are we doing at that point?" I think maybe some of that was what was happening, and that's where you get people switching sides ,and there are multiple cases of that sort of thing. And I think part of that has to do with the fact that, I don't know if anyone really expected it to become this kind of inferno that ended up really engulfing the entire community.
[00:35:39] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think about that too, cuz I think about when I first realized that people were writing testimony and defense of Rebecca and signing some petitions for her, and there were a lot, I remember thinking, "how was this not enough?" And also, [00:36:00] when her verdict was changed on her. I just remember, I'm like, "how could that happen?" And it's just another tell of how out of control, when a fire takes off, sometimes you just don't have enough water to put it out right then, and that was definitely happening.
[00:36:20] Greg Houle: Yeah I think in many ways this goes back to the kind of perfect storm that existed, where you have, you know, a community appearance that is moving away from their original purpose, or they know that they're not as pious as they should be at this point, three generations on, you have fear of, " what's gonna happen to our charter? Are we going to remain a colony of England?" And then you have this really burgeoning concern over the native population and the conflicts that were existing there. You have just the [00:37:00] inherent concern that exists within the Puritan religion of, " am I going to heaven?" This idea of predetermination and that you don't even really know and it's all determined. "Am I on God's path? I don't know."
[00:37:15] And I think it was almost like this perfect storm, where some things happen. Some people who are outcast get accused as. One would expect in a case like this, and then it just took off from there, and I would contend that people like Thomas Putnam were fanning the flames. There were others, as well. But I think that is part of what speaks to this, is that convergence of all of those different things and the kind of fear and concern about the future and what their world was gonna be like.
[00:37:54] I think, also, this may be a reach, they're going into a new century soon, and I think there was a [00:38:00] lot of concern about, " who are we gonna be?" There was, after King Philip's War, there was a lot of concern that it was so gruesome that, "are we turning into these savages, who we claim they are?" So there's all kinds of components here, and I think it's interesting how they all play together.
[00:38:18] Josh Hutchinson: It was a grand conflagration. In previous witch trial cases, you'd have one, maybe two people get accused at a time. And I think that's what they expected in the beginning, when you had those first three outsiders accused. But then you get things like Tituba's confession, where she says there's nine witches, and you have people like Samuel Parris fanning the flames every week in church. And, like you said, a perfect storm of ingredients had to come together for it to continue and to expand the way it did.[00:39:00]
[00:39:00] Greg Houle: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up Tituba, because I think that was really the linchpin of a lot of this. And that scene is portrayed in the novel, and the way I portray it is they, it's almost like boiler plate. Sarah Good, Sarah Osborne, of course they're gonna deny it, but we know they're witches. And then Tituba comes and says, "yeah, the devil came to me. Yeah, he wanted me to kill these girls. Yes, there was a yellow bird," and saying all this stuff that they are suddenly thinking, "whoa, wait a minute, we weren't expecting this."
[00:39:36] So I think in many ways her saying the things that she said to the magistrates really helped get the wheels turning in the heads of a lot of people like Thomas Putnam. Again, it's conjecture, I know, but I think that it's an interesting concept to think about that, that really helped turn the tide a little [00:40:00] bit and fan the flames further.
[00:40:02] Sarah Jack: And, like you said, there was this uncertainty with the charter. We know there was deceit with the new charter that ended up coming, but the court that was opened that, that was certain, that had procedure. It gave the powerful men power. So you had that piece sliding in when everything else was uncertain.
[00:40:27] Greg Houle: Yeah, that's a really important point. It was a sense of certainty at a time of great uncertainty. And that helps push the process along. And, also, and maybe we're gonna touch on this, but the other aspect that really fascinates me is how, the new governor's wife suddenly gets accused and everything falls apart at that point. So it also is a nice button to the story in the sense that you realize these external forces [00:41:00] are really what is driving this, rather than the Satan, the underworld, these dark forces. It's endlessly fascinating, but there are all kinds of those markers along the way that you see, where you realize, "okay, this is why this happened, or this is why this didn't happen, and et cetera."
[00:41:21] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm thinking, when would've the devil have got his foot in the door on some of this? It was already full.
[00:41:28] Greg Houle: I don't know. Yeah. I think again, looking at it from our eyes now with everything we see and just seeing the, maybe some of it, and it's not, not trying to be political, and the novel is not political in that regard, but I think it's, we see divisions in our own society and you see how those divisions are further exploited. And so it's very easy to look back through that lens and [00:42:00] see where that is happening. And I think I was doing a lot of that as I was researching and writing this, this novel.
[00:42:08] Josh Hutchinson: So what does it boil down to? What you are trying to say through your writing on the Putnams?
[00:42:16] Greg Houle: That's a really great question. For me, the biggest thing that I want to say, I think about the Putnam's is that it's the story of this privileged family who was losing its privilege. And in many ways, as that happened, you see what the family did in order to try to retain that power. For me, that's what I kept coming back to, is that there is this sort of multi-generational, pretty powerful family that is losing its power in [00:43:00] that moment, and the years leading up to the Salem witch hysteria, it's a fading family. That's why I said earlier that a good subtitle for the book would be The Fall of an American Family, because I think it really is that kind of story, and so for me it's about telling that story through this sort of famous American tragedy. And that's, I think, probably the biggest thing that I want to try to do.
[00:43:32] Sarah Jack: When you talk about their fall, and when one reads about all of their tactics with what was happening with all the families and the boundaries and stuff, they were really put trying to push forward. They were really fighting tooth and nail to not lose footing.
[00:43:51] Greg Houle: That's something that I really try to explore through various flashbacks and so forth. And the novel is just the [00:44:00] idea that Thomas Jr., In particular, has the weight of the world on his shoulders. His father did so much to try to build it up, and now it's all on him, and you can feel it slipping away. But he's very arrogant, and he's got a lot of hubris, and he just is gonna keep saying that he's great. And what's interesting about how it appears during the witch hysteria at Salem is that you see there, you witness the fall, you witness the way in which he was trying to take advantage of this opportunity and failing, ultimately.
[00:44:44] And that's what I really enjoyed exploring, even though it is a tragic story within my own family. And of course, again, a lot of this is fiction. I don't wanna sound like I know everything that went on inside his [00:45:00] head, but I do think that it's all plausible, and I think, the way the story sort of progresses before and after Salem, you see it, as we already talked about with Ann, you see what happens to her. She fades from history at that point. And that's, in many ways, a metaphor for the entire family. Now, I don't mean to say that my Putnam family no longer exists. They're fine. They're all over the country, but it's not the same. So that is what I was trying to tell that story through this major event.
[00:45:38] Josh Hutchinson: What do you hope people take away from your stories and your novel?
[00:45:43] Greg Houle: I think the biggest thing I'd like for them to take away is realize that what we've been talking about in terms of the multi-dimensional aspect of history is real. When we think of [00:46:00] the Salem witch hysteria, we often think about it as, "well, there was witchcraft and these, this monolithic group of puritans then went crazy and accused witches and then put them to death," but the reality, of course, is that there were a lot of things that led up to that and a lot of things that happened after it. And I think for me the biggest takeaway's for people to see this story as a larger story, as the story of various things occurring at the same time, rather than just this one snapshot of an event.
[00:46:46] Because, going back to what I said earlier, my feeling with Salem is that it is often almost like a caricature of what we talk about, this idea that this thing happened [00:47:00] and isn't that crazy? But the reality is it happened for a variety of reasons. And to me the biggest takeaway that someone reading the novel would get would be, "wow, I understand that there are multidimensions to this. And isn't that an interesting way of thinking of it?
[00:47:20] Sarah Jack: I think right now as a society, there's a growing number of people who are learning to look at history dimensionally. So many of us were taught it as a snapshot, and I think everyone is ready. Not everyone, I think the amount of people ready to take a deeper look is now, and I think that's why historical fiction is important, and the history's important, but I think it's great timing. I think your book is coming at a great, I know it's, you still have a little while before it's released, but that just means more people are gonna be ready to receive it.
[00:47:56] Greg Houle: I think the same is true with podcasts. I think that's why we're having a [00:48:00] moment with podcasts. I think that's why, even when you look at like true crime series and things that really take a deep dive into these stories that were often very flat and one dimensional, I think that is, you're right that we're at a time where a lot of people are interested in that, and for me that was really what I was trying to do here is create some dimension to this story. Now, I don't claim to be the first person ever to do that, many others have, but I think that there needs to be as much of that as possible, in order for people to be able to connect to the elements that we hopefully will learn from and avoid, as we go into the future.
[00:48:45] Josh Hutchinson: I think your writing is so important to help people understand what really happened. I know it is fiction, but it gets people into the right mindset to [00:49:00] start exploring possibilities of what happened and to reflect on what's happening now. So I highly recommend that everybody read it. How can people access your writing currently?
[00:49:14] Greg Houle: I guess the easiest way is they can visit my website, which is greghoule.info, that's g r e g h o u l e.info. There are links to some of my writing about the book, and I'll continue to build that up prior to publication.
[00:49:32] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. We very much appreciate you and your wisdom, and you've gone a long way towards answering the fundamental questions that are behind the podcast. We like to get in every episode part of the how do we hunt witches why do we hunt witches, how can we turn away from hunting witches? And your [00:50:00] answers have been quite elegant, speaking on those questions.
[00:50:05] Greg Houle: Obviously, it was much different, but they had the same sensibilities. They wanted to succeed. They wanted to defeat their enemies, and they wanted to make sure that their kids succeeded. And there were a lot of the same fears that they had that are very familiar to us today.
[00:50:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I like to point out that witch hunting in one form or another has been going on as long as humans have been around, because we, though the technology evolves and our beliefs evolve, at the core of us, we still have those same insecurities and fears that you point out.
[00:50:51] And now Sarah's here with another update on real-life witch-hunts happening in the present day.
[00:50:58] Sarah Jack: Welcome to this [00:51:00] episodes Witchcraft Fear Victim Advocacy Report, sponsored by End Witch Hunts News. Today's Thanksgiving 2022 in the United States. I thank you for tuning into our weekly End Witch Hunts News. Thank you to the advocates across the globe standing in the gap. For those who can't, thank you for being an activist against witchcraft.
[00:51:21] On its 47th session, the United Nations Human Rights Council adopted a resolution on July 12th, 2021 for the promotion and protection of all human rights, civil, political, economics, social, and cultural rights, including the right to development. Here is what they resolved regarding the situation of the violations and abuses of human rights rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks. It requests the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights to organize an expert consultation with states and other relevant stakeholders, including the United Nations [00:52:00] Secretariat and relevant bodies, representatives of subregional and regional organizations, international human rights mechanisms, national human rights institutions, and non-governmental organizations, the result of which will help the office of the High Commissioner to prepare a study on the situation of the violations that abuses of human rights, rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as well as stigmatization and to inform further action by existing mechanisms at the United Nations and to submit a report thereon to the Human Rights Council at its 52nd session.
[00:52:39] Mr. Volker Turk is the current United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. He took up official functions as high commissioner on October 17th, 2022. His Twitter handle is @ V O L K E R _ T U R K. Let him know you support his taking a suggested action on the [00:53:00] resolution. Let him know people like you stand against these violations and support finding solutions. Thank him for his work and accomplishments.
[00:53:07] Next, support the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project. You can support the project by sharing @_endwitchhunts, CT Witch Hunt, and CT Witch Memorial social media, and especially the news interviews in the first three Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast episodes. You can support the project by signing your name on the change.org petition. All these links are in our show episode notes. Go to the links, learn, support, and share.
[00:53:36] When the state of Connecticut moves forward with an exoneration for their accused witches, they're taking state action that stands with the promotion and protection of all human rights. Their exoneration decision is for Connecticut, but it is also for Africa and Asia. Their decision shows where they stand on violations and abuses of human rights, rooted in harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attacks, as [00:54:00] well as stigma.
[00:54:01] While we watch and wait, let's support the victims across the world where innocent people are being targeted by superstitious fear. Support them by acknowledging and sharing their stories. Please use all your communication channels to be an intervener and stand with them. The world must stop hunting witches. Please follow our End Witch Hunt movement on Twitter @_endwitchhunts and visit our website at endwitchhunts.org.
[00:54:25] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:54:26] Sarah Jack: You're welcome. Join us next week.
[00:54:29] Josh Hutchinson: Like, subscribe, or follow wherever you get podcasts.
[00:54:32] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com often.
[00:54:35] Josh Hutchinson: And join our Discord for rousing discussions of the show.
[00:54:41] Sarah Jack: Follow us on social media, links in description.
[00:54:45] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, and anybody else you run into about Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:54:53] Sarah Jack: Catch you next time.
[00:54:55] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[00:54:59] [00:55:00]
[00:00:00] Josh Hutchinson: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18
[00:00:05] Welcome to another episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:31] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
[00:00:34] Josh Hutchinson: Today we're talking to Annika Hylmo and Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine. Their documentary, The Last Witch, covers the exoneration of Elizabeth Johnson Jr., the "Last Witch" of Salem to have her name cleared.
[00:00:49] Sarah Jack: Because you like the show, please share it with your friends, family, and followers.
[00:00:54] Josh Hutchinson: I'm looking forward to today's episode. I think we'll have a deep, [00:01:00] powerful conversation with Annika and Cassandra, and looking forward to diving into how and why we hunt witches with them, what they've learned from doing their documentary.
[00:01:15] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm really excited to get to talk to them directly. I've really enjoyed their Facebook Live updates on their work, but we're gonna get so much more tonight.
[00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: We are, and speaking of getting more, Thanksgiving is next week.
[00:01:31] Sarah Jack: I have my turkey. It's not thawed yet, but I have it.
[00:01:36] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, don't thaw a week ahead of time. I wouldn't wanna eat a week old Turkey.
[00:01:41] Sarah Jack: There's this movie that I watch every Thanksgiving if I can get it. It's Home for the Holidays with Holly Hunter and Dylan McDermott and Robert Downey Jr.
[00:01:54] Have you seen it?
[00:01:55] Josh Hutchinson: I think I've seen that. I don't remember it though.
[00:01:58] Sarah Jack: Love that [00:02:00] movie. And it's all about frustrating family dynamics, and the sister brings a Neutra bird.
[00:02:09] Josh Hutchinson: What is a Neutra bird?
[00:02:11] Sarah Jack: I I have no idea, but it was like a special health. They called it a Neutra bird or Neutry bird, and she ends up wearing it.
[00:02:18] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, like Joey and the turkey in Friends?
[00:02:21] Sarah Jack: Oh yeah. See that's what we should talk about is Friends.
[00:02:25] Josh Hutchinson: I wanna talk about Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. That's my favorite Thanksgiving movie.
[00:02:30] Sarah Jack: That is up there. That is up there.
[00:02:34] Josh Hutchinson: That's the classic Thanksgiving movie.
[00:02:38] Sarah Jack: Josh, let's hear some history about Elizabeth Johnson Jr.
[00:02:42] Josh Hutchinson: Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. was an unfortunate victim of the Salem Witch Trials. Elizabeth Johnson Jr. was the granddaughter of Reverend Francis Dane of Andover, but, more importantly, she was the first cousin, once removed of Martha Carrier, who Cotton Mather described [00:03:00] as the Queen of Hell and whose family were basically all arrested during the Salem Witch Trials.
[00:03:09] Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. was 22 at the time of her arrest. Her father Steven Johnson had died in 1690, due to a smallpox outbreak that was blamed on Martha Carrier. Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. was arrested shortly before August 10th, 1692, along with her second cousins, Sarah and Thomas Carrier, children of Martha.
[00:03:34] Elizabeth was examined by magistrate Dudley Bradstreet on August 10, and she did confess. She was alleged to have afflicted Sarah Phelps with the help of Sarah and Thomas Carrier. Sarah Phelps was the daughter of Samuel Phelps and the niece of recently deceased Elizabeth Phelps Ballard, the woman for [00:04:00] whom the Andover witch-hunt really started, when her husband invited afflicted girls from Salem Village to come up and detect witches. Elizabeth confessed to afflicting Sarah Phelps, Ann Putnam, Mary Walcott, Lawrence Lacey, Benjamin Abbott, a child of Ephraim Davis, two children of James Fry, the children of Abraham Foster, and Elizabeth Phelps Ballard, who died.
[00:04:28] Elizabeth stated that she had been a witch for four years. She became a witch at her cousin Martha Carrier's house, and in 1689 she was baptized by the devil by having her head dipped in Martha Carrier's well. She also scratched the devil's book with her finger to sign the covenant with him. She was present at a witch sacrament, where red bread and blood wine were served. All the witches there pledged to pull down the Kingdom of Christ and [00:05:00] set up the Devil's Kingdom.
[00:05:02] While she confessed, she also accused Martha Carrier, George Burroughs, Martha Toothaker's two children, Richard Carrier, Sarah Carrier, Mary Lacey, Sr., Mary Lacey, Jr., John Floyd, and Daniel Eames. She confessed to using puppets and she showed a place on her knuckle, where her familiar suckled her and said that there were two more places that she couldn't reveal. So women searched her body, and they found one behind her arm, but didn't mention any other.
[00:05:36] And now after 330 years, her name has finally been cleared, the last of the convicted Salem witches to have that done.
[00:05:48] Sarah Jack: Thank you for all of that information on Elizabeth Johnson, Jr.'s life and for making her experience something that we know about.
[00:05:58] Josh Hutchinson: You're [00:06:00] welcome, and I forgot one detail. She sold her soul to the Devil for one shilling, which is just a bunch of pennies, 5 cents worth, a nickel. She sold herself to the devil. And she never got paid. The devil never paid up anybody who confessed to covenanting with him during the Salem witch trials. Never once did the guy actually do what he said he would do.
[00:06:28] Sarah Jack: That sounds like him.
[00:06:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, he's a rascal.
[00:06:33] Sarah Jack: Yeah, he's a liar.
[00:06:35] Josh Hutchinson: The Prince of Liars.
[00:06:36] Sarah Jack: Welcome to Annika Hylmo and Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine of The Last Witch, a documentary about the work of a middle school teacher and her students to exonerate Elizabeth Johnson Jr., the last person convicted during the Salem Witch Trials to be cleared.
[00:06:53] We would like to start out by finding out who was the last witch.
[00:06:58] Annika Hylmo: The last witch, it depends on [00:07:00] how you see it, depends on what you consider to be a witch. But the last convicted witch from the Salem Witch Trials was Elizabeth Johnson Jr., who was just exonerated on July 28th, 2022, three hundred and twenty-nine years after she was convicted. So with that, I guess you could say that she was the last witch from the Salem Witch Trials, and that kind of ended the Salem Witch Trials.
[00:07:28] Sarah Jack: When I saw how you listed that on your social media, the end of them, I thought that's really a strong statement and thought, and that's a wrap. So that's really powerful.
[00:07:41] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: Yeah, we felt that way too. I think Annika came up with it first, and she said that, and it was like, "wait, you're right."
[00:07:46] Oh my gosh. It's, it made history and it like closed a chapter in history. Not all the way, there's still more obviously other people that haven't been exonerated, like in Connecticut and other places around the world, but also and still the lasting effects of it. But [00:08:00] definitely that particular chapter felt like it had come to a close.
[00:08:04] Annika Hylmo: It's incredible when you start to think about it that it's been almost 330 years, right? And that for all this time that somebody could be considered to be a witch. And it raises, I think, a lot of questions about what we believe to be a witch, who is a witch, who isn't a witch, who's culpable, and how we treat people, as well as all the issues that you can trace back to the Salem Witch Trials. History and present are so intertwined, and we tend to forget that history is, it's happening now, and we're a part of all of this.
[00:08:42] So the fact that this took 330 years for simplicity to get taken care of makes me wonder sometimes what things we're dealing with now that it will take 330 years to clear and set things right.
[00:08:58] Sarah Jack: None of us are gonna allow that. [00:09:00] Are we ?
[00:09:00] Annika Hylmo: Let's hope not.
[00:09:02] Sarah Jack: Can you tell us a little bit about where she lived, how old she was, how long she was in prison, a little bit about her experience?
[00:09:10] Annika Hylmo: We don't know an awful lot about her, to be honest. We have snippets of information about her. We know that she lived in what is today, North Andover, Massachusetts, which is outside of Salem. We know that she was about 22 at the time of the witch trials, and we know that she was not married. She did not have children.
[00:09:32] And we know that she may have been a little bit different. There was talk of her being simplish. She, there was talk of her being simple-minded, and that came up on a couple of occasions in some of the documents. We also know that she was the granddaughter of Reverend Dane, of Reverend Francis Dane, who was the elder clergyman in town at the time.
[00:09:56] But as far as any other specifics, we [00:10:00] know very little. We can assume things. We can assume that she probably lived with family, for example. We do know that she was examined, and that's another word of being like really threatened, because these were very threatening circumstances. In 1692, early fall of 1692, she was then in prison, we assume, but we don't know because some of them were let out temporarily, so we don't know the exact circumstances, but until January of 1693, when her grandfather wrote a letter where he stated that she was simplish at best, but about a week after that she was convicted and sentenced to hang. At the time, the governor of Massachusetts had already pardoned everybody, so she wasn't going to actually hang, but she was imprisoned, from what we understand, a little bit longer.
[00:10:59] We do [00:11:00] have a sense that she was supposed to hang early February. That did not happen because of the pardon, but it wasn't like people let go of this thing about witch hunts and witch trials and witchcraft. It was just that the governor had said no, and there's an end to it. From there, we don't know much about her.
[00:11:16] We know that she probably owned some property. She tried to get restitution for the time that she was in prison. Basically, people had to pay their own way, and she tried to get that money back at one point. We know that she sold some property at one point and that she probably died when she was, I think, in her seventies.
[00:11:35] But we know very little about her circumstances after the trials, before the trials. She was, in many ways, one of us. Most of us, you don't know exactly who we are, what we do, even with social media, That's our modern day version of gossip, but you don't really know that much about each one of us. And for many of us, once we are gone, we're gone, as much as we'd like to think otherwise. So [00:12:00] she's somebody that could be anyone of us at the time and now, and that's what makes her so compelling. One of many reasons.
[00:12:09] Josh Hutchinson: That reputation sticks with the person through the rest of their life and well beyond.
[00:12:15] Annika Hylmo: And the interesting thing about that is that the whole connection to the witch trials is profound. When you look at people that have some kind of connection and who you are related to, there's a big difference when you talk to people who consider themselves to be related to somebody who was a witch compared to somebody who was an accuser compared to somebody who was a judge. That still is part of modern day community, and that has not let go.
[00:12:45] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: And, unfortunately, I'm related to all three , so I'm confused with my feelings. But yeah, it is true. When we met descendants who were descendants or relatives of people that were accused or witches that were actually executed, [00:13:00] the pain is still pretty strongly, especially with ones that grew up on the east coast, knew about their heritage their whole life.
[00:13:06] And then you have the accusers. I'm a direct descendant actually of an accuser, joseph Ballard, who actually, because of him and his wife, who was ill at the time, is why the Salem girls were brought over to Andover and why people were then accused in Andover's from my grandfather.
[00:13:21] And I'm actually a cousin through marriage of Elizabeth, as well. So I'm related, and then I'm related to a few that were executed, and I'm related to Judge John Hathorne, which he wasn't the nicest of people. And it can be confusing and also feel, wow, what a timeframe of what went through with all these people.
[00:13:39] I can't imagine being a direct descendant of someone who accused and caused more people to be accused than in Salem itself. There is a guilt that came on when I first learned about it, but I wasn't raised with this. I had to learn about it about ten years ago. Until then, it was a story that happened to someone else.
[00:13:56] But yeah, as Annika says it's interesting when we've talked to other descendants, [00:14:00] relatives of what that has carried on for them.
[00:14:03] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah and I are both descendants. Sarah's a descendant of Rebecca Nurse and her sister Mary Esty. I'm a descendant of Mary Esty and found family connections to several dozen people involved. So I have that thing of being related to judges and jury and accusers and everyone, and it brings up conflicting feelings.
[00:14:30] You try to understand what each of those people was thinking and what their experience was, and that fear of witches was so real back then that kind of understand where they were coming from, but it still doesn't make it better.
[00:14:47] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: Josh, when we first started our project, it was actually a narrative feature film that we were working on, a story of about Andover and what happened there. A lot of people have done stories on Salem, so we were wanting to make a movie [00:15:00] about a different version or portion of what happened. And Annika had actually brought that up, and I thought that was really lovely of seeing the humanity, cuz I had the guilt of, oh no, my grandfather, did this horrible thing.
[00:15:11] And she's, " but he was in love with his wife and she knew, and they had real fears and this was their religion and their beliefs". And that really actually helped me. So thank you, Annika. With that portion. At the time as well, when we started, I didn't realize actually I was related to so many other people at the time. I only thought it was related to the accuser. But as Annika says, they all, they all had to marry each other and everything. It was such a small town. And and so you end up, if you're related to one, you're probably related to a few.
[00:15:35] Josh Hutchinson: Does the film explain why she was overlooked?
[00:15:40] Annika Hylmo: That's one of the big questions why she was overlooked, and there's really no good answer, except that it makes for really good drama, because once we discovered this story, it came about because there was an article about school teacher Carrie LaPierre and her middle school students who were [00:16:00] working to study the case of Elizabeth Johnson Junior and to exonerate her from the witch trials and working together with Senator Dizoglio to get that.
[00:16:08] So in digging into this story and asking people who were in some way connected to Salem, in some way connected to the witch trials and go, "so why do you think that she was not cleared?" Because there were others who have been exonerated various phases as we know. The last group before her was in 2001.
[00:16:31] And so the question is, why was she left out and why is there only one? Why is she the last one? And the response that inevitably came up was that they just forgot about her, and it became an echo. They just forgot about her. They just forgot about her. They just forgot about her. And it got to be a little bit eerie.
[00:16:50] Almost there's a conspiracy theory around this, which opens up a number of questions, right? So why would you forget somebody who was a [00:17:00] member of your family? Why would you forget somebody who was convicted of witchcraft during such an important time and that's been studied so much. And there are probably a number of reasons why she was forgotten, overlooked, and ultimately considered to be unimportant, which is a critical part of this when we're gonna be going into some of this, during the story, during the documentary, and obviously dig deeper.
[00:17:29] But for our purposes today, and remembering the contemporary side of this is that she did not have kids. She was a single woman who was a little bit different in some way. We don't wanna go back and give her a diagnosis because that's not fair to her. It's not fair to history. And back in the day, people did not have psychiatrists and other people to help them out, but she was different in some way.
[00:17:58] And you take all of [00:18:00] those elements, plus the fact that this was a big, dark shadow that was cast over the communities. Nobody really wanted to talk about it. Nobody really wanted to talk about the Salem witch trials. People tried to figure out how to move on through marriage, in some cases by moving away, in some cases by running away. We have a lot of people that disappeared after the witch trials.
[00:18:24] And for Elizabeth, she probably lived with her family afterwards for a while, but she didn't have descendants. And when you don't have descendants, you're much easier to forget. It's like society is saying that you don't matter if you don't have descendants. So that's a really big and important thing for us to look at is when do you stop mattering? And if you don't have kids, do single people matter less than people who are married or people who have kids? We know that women then and now are still more likely to be struggling financially, economically, for [00:19:00] example.
[00:19:00] So some of those issues that she would've been dealing with then that would make her less important to people around her are probably the reasons for why she kept being forgotten. All the people that have been exonerated since have had family members that have been speaking for them. We know Rebecca, Nurse's family, for example, have been integral in making sure that she was never forgotten.
[00:19:26] Some of the other families tried to move on and just forget, but Elizabeth didn't have anybody speaking up for her, and to me that is one really important question and lesson to be taken away from this is who are we as individuals today when we are overlooking people, where we're not paying attention to that one person who's alone by themselves, when we walk by somebody who is not connected, who doesn't have a family, the same way, somebody who doesn't have kids, who [00:20:00] might need a little bit of support, and how often do we do that without stopping to think about it? Because that's probably what happened to Elizabeth back then.
[00:20:09] Sarah Jack: Yeah, that is very powerful. I just think about how unfortunate for her experience that the exoneration didn't happen for her and during her lifetime or even in a quick amount of time, but it's really giving us a lot of power today to do something with it for these people that are getting looked over. And also, when I saw the exoneration news popping up, it was right before the anniversary of Alice Young's hanging. And I like anything you guys put out, I pushed out and talked about Alice, and I feel like it really was important during the very beginning of the exoneration for the Connecticut witch trials, when that group was forming this [00:21:00] spring, what you guys were doing, about sharing what was happening with Elizabeth with the legislator. That's like another powerful thing. This is one of those things that it was, a grave oversight, but it's also something very powerful today.
[00:21:15] Annika Hylmo: Yeah, it's very much something that's holding up a mirror to us. And for me, that's why it's important to tell this story, because it's asking us to take a look at a lot of the same questions that were happening back then that are happening again today. Historically, we know that Massachusetts didn't have a charter at the time. We know that people were coming out of war. There was a lot of war going on at the same time. They just had a smallpox. This was a community that was settling, and so economically, there was a lot of instability and it was a community that had a lot of young people and not so many elder people, older people. So it was like a pyramid if you look at it that way, in terms of the numbers of people. [00:22:00] And again, a very unstable time when people were trying to figure things out. People were trying to build a new community, and people were trying to recover from famine, from misfortune when it came to crops and trying to find a way to create a new society. And in some ways did, and in some ways they failed.
[00:22:25] And if we look at what's going on around us right now, we're very much at that precipice again, that we can either do what people have done over and over in time, right? Which is to look around and blame somebody else, and point a finger at somebody else, and continue with this black and white thinking where whatever is wrong in the world is somebody else's fault, while we watch and we look around and we see war, we see climate change, we see all sorts of destruction going on around us, we see families being torn apart, we see death [00:23:00] and dying and pandemics taking over regardless of what you think may or may not be. We are seeing a lot of lot similar changes as we're taking place back then.
[00:23:12] And the question for us is really what can we learn from what happened in 1692 so that we don't push ourselves toward the same kind of apocalypse that happened for them at that time? And so that we can really think about what kind of world do we want to live in and create that world, as opposed to jumping on the bandwagon of the latest rumors and misfortune and catastrophe. So what do we wanna do as individuals and as our society? And I think that's a big lesson to think about, because otherwise we're gonna land in the same kind of apocalyptic underworld that they felt like they were in at the time.
[00:23:54] Sarah Jack: Were you surprised at the impact your work is [00:24:00] having, even in the stage, like your research stage and now in a new stage of the film? Has the power of your work been a surprise? Was it your hope to get things rolling in people's minds now at this point of your project?
[00:24:15] Annika Hylmo: That's part of the fun, isn't it? To shake people up a little bit and to get people to think a little bit, and obviously this story is about a story that was already in motion.
[00:24:25] Carrie LaPierre was already working on this based on the work of Richard Hite, who was the one who discovered that Elizabeth was still not exonerated and the wonderful Diana Dizoglio state senator, who pushed this through the Massachusetts Senate. And as you start to look at the story, obviously there's a reason for why we picked doing this.
[00:24:49] It's like this, there's curiosity behind this. This is crazy. There's this, how could this be? And how could this be that there is somebody that's still convicted as a witch from [00:25:00] 1692? And that became the impetus. But as you start to pull at it and things happening in real time, then you start to realize how much there is to this story.
[00:25:13] So then it becomes, how can we have fun with this and challenge people to be a part of it? Because that's, it's fun to challenge people to be a part of it and to listen to people and hear their stories. It's a lot of fun to do that. But as we went on, this, the bill, the initial bill went through this Massachusetts State Senate and then it stalled.
[00:25:37] So there are these moments that you come up against where you go, "this is crazy. Why would they not just sign up on this?" So when other people are starting to step up and saying, "yeah, we also think this is crazy, this is nuts," then you start to feel that community, and when you start having that community that's doing something good or starting to realize that there's something good about this, then [00:26:00] you go, "okay, this is fun."
[00:26:02] And filming the kids, and even seeing the kids in the classroom go from, "yeah, this sucks. We gotta do the school project," which we expected because they're eighth graders. If they weren't like that, then I'd be really worried. But they went from that to go, "yeah, I guess this kind of maybe important."
[00:26:19] And then you realize that they go, "yeah, we're doing something that adults aren't doing. This is cool." So it shifts along the way, and seeing them and seeing everybody else take on and let it grow, I think has been affirming more than anything else. This is something that matters. It's, beyond just the surface level of the story, which is great, like teacher kids exonerating, but the impact, seeing all those accounts start to pop up.
[00:26:55] This was especially in July, when we were doing a ton of social [00:27:00] media outreach, and I know you were both part of that and then responding and answering and everything like that. We did a ton of social media outreach in July, and seeing more and more accounts pop up and more and literally around the world and say, "yeah, we too." So it went from me too to we too when it came to the witches. Was incredible power, incredibly powerful, seeing the story spread, not just here in the US but literally spread around the world, which the original story had as well, when Carrie first started with the project, or when the first articles came out about it that also went around the world, but nothing like this.
[00:27:42] But it's also, I think, giving us hope that we can come together as a community and do the right thing when it comes to many of the people who were convicted back in the day, but also to move forward and really ask [00:28:00] those profound questions about what does this tell us about who we are, about what we need to do? Because we can't stop. If we stop here, we will have more tragedy. And that's what the witch trials, I think, can teach us and tell us.
[00:28:16] Josh Hutchinson: You've touched basically on the central premise of why we're doing this show and our questions that we're looking to have answered as we do this, which are how do we witch-hunt?
[00:28:31] Why do we hunt witches? And how can we possibly stop this behavior because it does continue today. So I thank you for getting into so much detail on that. That was wonder.
[00:28:44] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: And I think, in a way you just want everyone to look at your movie and support it, right? We wanted to be able to make the movie. We loved it. We loved the topic. We were already working on a project prior to it. When Annika had discovered what was going on, I said, "oh my gosh, let's work on this."
[00:28:56] So we absolutely were honored when people started [00:29:00] paying attention and when you, yourself, when both of you started paying attention to our project and then it connected us to other witch trials, that was such an honor. I think that's how I look at it now. And as Annika said, the community of building everybody and coming together.
[00:29:13] And I think also one more part that I wanted to mention from earlier, your question earlier was just that, and Annika's mentioned this as well. She, as the director, she points out a lot of these things, and so that's why I keep referring to her, which is great. I'm so honored to have her be able to be so intelligent about it.
[00:29:26] But the middle school news often nowadays is a school shooting. And how amazing is it that this is not that, that this is success, that this is them standing up for someone's rights? This is changing history. Even if they were bored and didn't understand it at times, they did get it at times, and especially, when the senator came to visit them and getting when they were able to do it. And one of the young girls even actually ran into the governor before he even signed off and was like, "you should do this." So it was pretty amazing, to have them fight for something like this.
[00:29:59] Sarah Jack: [00:30:00] It's definitely planting very important seeds.
[00:30:04] Annika Hylmo: And that's how you stop it.
[00:30:05] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: Josh is saying, "how do you stop some of this?" And it's I think we do have to start young with this. And inspiring others. Annika's talked about, that the movie being an inspiration to get you to see how can you help, how can you be part of changing history or the story or what story do we wanna write, because if it happened then, and it's echoing now and paralleling, then where are we going? Are we going to a second apocalypse? Are we going to have a situation where people are gonna be collected and told they're witches and hanged? That's seems so unimaginable, but it must have been very odd then too.
[00:30:40] Annika Hylmo: Stop to think about it a little bit, though, this whole thing about witches and witchcraft, which there's a whole question of who is a witch and who isn't a witch. And I think witches are something. We've always had witches around us in some way, whatever, because we designate, we put a label on people, and they happen to be the witches of the time. Even the Bible has [00:31:00] stories about witches, and those, the Bible is based on oral traditions. I think it's something that we've always had with us. And it's something that's morphed at that community. It's a community that's morphed in different ways, and we can go into whole conversation around the connection to theology and spirituality and religion.
[00:31:20] But it is a very interesting phenomenon to look at. Back in the day, in the 1600s, they were superstitious, just like we are superstitious today. So I think that's one place to start really considering how close are we to this? They were very superstitious. They used an almanac, which is basically astrology, and anybody that's ever read their astrological horoscope or something like that, that could have been you.
[00:31:47] They would do little rituals, they will do things and they would have sayings just like we have now. There were some stories of people dying very suddenly and nobody understanding why, and so people came up with an [00:32:00] explanation. So there's a whole range of what that might be. There were, they would sell little booklets about palmistry, about how to read somebody's hand to tell their fortune, that kind of thing.
[00:32:10] During the pandemic, I saw some statistics about Tarot cards, and apparently the sale of Tarot cards went way up during the pandemic. So I would say that anyone who's listening to this, who's got a deck of Tarot cards at home, if we consider that to be your local poppet or your local whatever it might have been back in 1692, this is how close it is. Little things that we say and do, little superstitions that we all have in different ways, like throwing salt over your shoulder for one thing what, whatever it might be, everyone's got something that we do. That could potentially mark us as a witch. Somebody that's really intuitive could be marked as a witch.
[00:32:59] It [00:33:00] happens easier than we think, so that's when it comes to the whole idea of witches, and of course people go into see a psychic, which Salem is these days, very famous for that. It's become a safe haven for people who are psychics and who are spiritually minded, and it's wonderful that it is a safe space in many ways, but it's also telling us how easily this could be potentially be repeated, if we look just at spirituality and women's spirituality in some way.
[00:33:30] And we take the same thing, and we can look at any other community that's different in some way, and how easy it is to say that's you, not me. And then we start to build those walls, and the same challenge comes up. We just had it during this entire pandemic where we had people say, "I believe there's a pandemic. I believe there's a virus." And we had people who said, "no way there is a virus, absolutely not." People are saying that, "of course I'm gonna get [00:34:00] vaccinated and it's the right thing to do." And then people are saying, "no. It's almost like it's the devil's work, right?" It's closer to us than we think, and we can take that image and place it on so many different social issues, so many different circumstances that are very close to us.
[00:34:18] So the whole idea about witch hunts, it's here. That's the thing that, witch hunts are here. Look at politics. Every single time there's an election, somebody's gonna say something and be called a witch or being called a witch hunter, or something along those lines. There's a witch-hunt on this, there's a witch-hunt on that. It happens consistently, and we're all a part of it. The question is, what are we gonna do about it? And then I think another question is, are we doomed ? For want of a better word, are we doomed to constantly repeat this? Because if we've done this for thousands and thousands of years, is this something that's just by [00:35:00] nature, a part of humanity?
[00:35:01] And that I don't know the answer to, and I don't know that I want to know the answer to it either, to be honest.
[00:35:09] Sarah Jack: We've been looking more and more at the modern witch killings that are happening in other parts of the world, and there is a very strong religious superstition tied to it. And so not every community in the world is in the same place as far as the understanding or the tools they have to start changing that next generation. So I just really hope that these powerful words that you're saying today, the power of your documentary the historical part of the documentary is so important. It's interesting cuz you brought up the safe, the safeness of Salem today for those that are practicing, and [00:36:00] it's so how does this all come together without the fear? I just, I want the fear to be. dissipated and yeah, I just really thinking, I've just been really thinking.
[00:36:13] Josh Hutchinson: We haven't in many ways changed very much, but we're hoping that somehow a way to intervene can be found, and these witch hunting behaviors can be stopped.
[00:36:27] They have been going on since basically the beginning of humanity in various forms. Labeling the other, the one you want to scapegoat for all your problems. We saw that with World War II. We've seen that so many times in our own lifetimes. I wanted to thank you for bringing that up.
[00:36:51] Annika Hylmo: It's very real. Yeah. I think we all have superstitions and I think it's it's a big part of psychology and our [00:37:00] superstitions and our fears. They're there for a reason as well. They're there to protect us, so it's not like we want to get rid of it altogether, but to learn to question it and to learn to take action. Too often do we look at something further away, as opposed to looking at what's really close at hand and even how we're talking to each other, how we're expressing things. I've been called a witch. I've been called witchy, and there's probably some truth to that. Do I identify myself as a witch? Not particularly, but depending on what the other person sees in me, then I may well be a witch.
[00:37:39] I think the question though, of how it's expressed and how we're talking to each other, how we're talking about one another, not just when we're in the room, but also when we're not in the room with one another. How do we express respect for somebody else? How do we talk about, [00:38:00] again, going back to that person who's alone, but talk about that person in a respectful way to a point where it feels like, "oh my gosh, that's somebody that I want to invite into my world," as opposed to, "poor so and so that are by themselves." So instead talking about something amazing that they're doing or great sense of humor or whatever it is that person has.
[00:38:25] It's often those little things that where it starts. And that's a personal responsibility that we have, I think each one of us. And probably should find something that really matters to us and stand for that and stand up for it, not be afraid to express an opinion. But would that also take the responsibility of learning about it? So it's not just because somebody said or because you picked it up on the news or social media or something, but really take the time to discover different sides to it. Be curious about [00:39:00] that issue, and then stand up and speak for it, and find somebody that you're going to protect when you're doing it, somebody who might not be as good at speaking about it as you are, but bring them into your fold. So it's certainly, I think, a lot about personal responsibility in this that needs to come out. What can we do as individuals? How can we talk about questions in ways that we might not feel comfortable talking about?
[00:39:26] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: And to speak to that, Dr. Samuel Oliner, who I was very fortunate to get to meet. He taught here locally at the university. He really helped foster and coin the phrase of altruism. And he was a teenage boy and during World War II and had to pretend to be German on a, at a ranch that he stumbled upon after his whole family was killed in a mass grave.
[00:39:48] And he, the woman he found out later had always known he really actually was Jewish and saved him and didn't turn him in. And so he studied. Instead of studying the negative [00:40:00] side, which we've been talking about, that energy of that happening, he studied the opposite, which is the answer, some of the answers, I won't say it's the answer, but what Annika was saying of us taking responsibility and caring about someone else. So he studied altruism, and he created a whole facility. He wrote a plethora of books on it. And what he found was that it was a lot of times somebody who, people had more empathy and were more altruistic the more that they were able to see outside their little world.
[00:40:29] So if they traveled, they were the person that was gonna come to a bridge. If they saw a car go over the bridge, they would be the person who would jump into the water to go save someone, versus the spectators who stood and watch. And what made that difference? How do we get more of those people who jump in the water, or who write the letter and say, "no, this is ridiculous? We're not gonna hang or burn people for playing with Tarot cards, things like that." And it basically came down to just be more worldly and be more experienced so that you would have more empathy and realize there's people that do things [00:41:00] different than you. And that's okay.
[00:41:02] They can still exist and we can still coexist and not have to feel so threatened and blame them for the things that we are confused about or don't understand. But how do you teach that to everybody? And some people don't have that, they're not in the space, the mindset, I think, as Annika said, psychology, they're going through a tough time.
[00:41:19] Annika Hylmo: It brings to mind somebody that I met when I was working on my PhD. And my PhD is in communication, which is basically storytelling. That's the simplest way of explaining it to everybody. But I met a researcher back then, his name was George Gerbner, and he studied the impact of mass media, and people who are always watching a lot of news, taking in a lot of the bad news, often feel like it's a very dangerous world of life, bad living in, and as a result, refusing to interact with other people, refusing to make contact with other people and thinking that the world is a lot worse than it actually is.
[00:41:59] [00:42:00] And it strikes me that we had another event, just 2020, and that was the Black Lives Matter movement, which came up very suddenly and not suddenly. It was interesting to talk to people who are very different. I'm very pale skinned in comparison to the vast majority of this world. I have blue eyes, I've got brown hair, and I found that I had such rich conversations with people who didn't look like me and with people who looked like me, and I learned so much about myself and about the world through those conversations. That's something that's open to anyone to have those conversations, to do that outreach.
[00:42:45] And that's also where a lot of this is going to start. It's dared to have a conversation who isn't like you, who doesn't have the same belief system as you, who might be [00:43:00] different, whether it's economically, it's spiritually, it's sexually, it's ethnically, whatever it might be. Those conversations are so powerful because they teach you something about you at the same time as it opens up to the rest of the world.
[00:43:17] So I think, just like what Cassandra was saying, it's that really that connecting and seeing how you can connect with other people. There's a lot of psychology in this and a lot of opportunity for us to step across those boundaries, to step outside of that fear zone a little bit and go, "hey, this is fun. I like hanging out with you. Let's do this."
[00:43:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's such an excellent point about connecting with people who could alternatively be seen as the other and avoided. One thing, one big step towards getting rid of this witch hunting behavior is exactly that, embracing [00:44:00] people with different beliefs, different appearances, different backgrounds and connecting. But it's still the problem of how do we get everyone to embrace that?
[00:44:12] Annika Hylmo: I think that we need to open up to curiosity a lot more in this world compared to where we might have been. And I actually think that's a lesson, too, that we have to learn from the 1600s, because their experience was very different with the world compared to ours. Theirs was one of all the senses, and we are not using all of our senses anymore. And with that, we've lost some curiosity. And I think this is actually a really important point that we need to not just go, "oh, we don't wanna be at all like the 1600s" But there are some ways, at least for me, that I wanna be more like the 1600s and that use of all the senses, to me it's really tied to curiosity.
[00:44:54] It's like it's stepping outside, being outdoors a little bit and just check in with your senses. Being curious [00:45:00] about that. What does it feel like? Is it warm? Is it cold? Is it windy? What am I tasting? And sometimes if you're lucky enough that you come across something that you could get a bite of along the way, or that experience that you're touching something touch is so incredible. I love walking up and down the street, and sometimes I'll just grab a bit of rosemary, and I'll smell it, and I'll touch it, and it feels a little bit oily, and it smells really good, and it just pops me, wakes me up a little bit.
[00:45:27] That sense of curiosity with the natural world is something that people had back in the 1600s, because that was part of their life. They didn't have streetlights the way that we do, and so they had to be curious about the shadows at night. They had to be curious about how to grow their crops, about all of those things.
[00:45:49] And I think that kind of curiosity at a very basic level is something that we've lost. But it's a step toward connecting, [00:46:00] cuz that lets us connect with ourself and then connecting with other people as well. That, and that's something that we all have. That's something that people, you're never gonna be able to take that away from us, but as long as all we do is look at a screen all day long, then we'll forget how to do that.
[00:46:15] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: I think that there is that connecting, like what she said. And then there's also not labeling too, so there's a thing that we should be doing and something maybe we need to also stop doing. I had to take a whole class as part of my degree on labels and what it does to a society when we label.
[00:46:29] Besides being, through my mother's side being related to the witch trials, I'm also half Mexican through my biological father's side, but a lot of people look at me and think, You're not Mexican. Where's your accent?
[00:46:41] I've actually been told, "where's your accent? Were you born in Mexico?" And I giggle, and I'm like, "no, I read white, I appear white, but I am Mexican too." And stop having these labels and then be curious, as Annika said. Be able to wonder what's going on and inquire. And those same [00:47:00] exact elements that she was talking about with nature. We could do with people too. Find out more about them. Find out what makes them, instead of labeling them as this thing, and then that thing becomes bad.
[00:47:08] Annika Hylmo: The labeling thing is actually a really good thing to look at, and it's an opportunity to look at a little bit for each one of us as individuals, because there's a whole movement now that lets people self identify and self label, right? So do you want, what pronouns do you wanna use? And how you react to that has a lot to do with, or tells you a lot about how comfortable you are in a world that isn't so clear, so specific.
[00:47:37] Again, this is what happened in 1692, that things were not clear, crystal clear to people, something as small or big, depending on your worldview and how, what your comfort level is as having people label themselves, self-identify, and/or asking you what your pronouns are and/or getting [00:48:00] comfortable using those pronouns when you're not comfortable, you've never done it before. It's something completely new to you in a small way.
[00:48:10] That encapsulates what people were dealing with back in 1692, because there was so much ambiguity around them. And taking that opportunity to really think about that and then to act on it to say, "maybe I am gonna be making it a little bit more effort to step up and use the pronouns that someone else wants me to use and embrace." That's a really small, large step that everybody can take. And that's the kind of thing that I think we need to look for. It's what are the small things that we can do as individuals and hold ourselves personally accountable for.
[00:48:51] Sarah Jack: And when everybody goes out and does these very important things that Annika and Cassandra are [00:49:00] recommending, talk about that experience. I think that once you've had a new experience, be brave enough to talk about it with other people.
[00:49:09] Annika Hylmo: And if you feel like you wanna go to church, if you wanna go to synagogue, you wanna go to mosque, please do. If you wanna be out in nature, if that's where you find your spirituality, please do. If you find that doing something creative, artistic is your spirituality, please do. Whatever it is, talk to animals, go for a long walk, sit on the beach, yoga. Whatever it is, take the time to experience spirituality every day. That will help us a lot too.
[00:49:38] Josh Hutchinson: I personally, I just wanna say I love talking to animals. I find that to be very therapeutic, if nothing else, engaging with them and I love engaging with nature in general. So I'm glad you brought that up and the curiosity with our senses that we need to engage all five again. That's a good [00:50:00] point.
[00:50:00] I think what you're doing with the film and what you've done with the conversation so far today is just so important in so many ways. How can people support the documentary?
[00:50:14] Cassandra Roberts Hesseltine: There's a couple different ways they can. As Annika said, definitely, reach out to us, tell us their stories. It helps educate us, helps us know more of what's going on. We can't be everywhere at all times. We weren't fully aware of everything that was going on in Connecticut until you reached out to us, so helpful. That is so helpful. So that's one way. Following us on all the social medias. If people do that, obviously we hope that everyone uses it for the right reasons, but following where the project is, commenting participating. Facebook, Instagram, we do a little Twitter. And then we have a website. People can, stop and check out and see where we are with the project.
[00:50:48] And then, if inclined, we always understand this is the awkward part, but we are self-funding as of right now and the contributions and we're working on our funding for the bigger project. So [00:51:00] that's obviously a big way would be help us get it made, help us get the word out by helping contribute to actually the process of making the film.
[00:51:08] Annika Hylmo: And I would add to that, that if there are nonprofits out there that would be interested in learning more about this project and to see where there is a cause, where there might be an overlay, reach out to us because this is a community effort and there may well be a way that we could partner on this.
[00:51:27] Josh Hutchinson: Great. And we'll have links in the show notes to your website and to your contact form on there, as well.
[00:51:36] Annika Hylmo: Thank you, and a huge shout out to these kids in Massachusetts. They are incredible, amazing. Were it not for these middle school kids, two years worth of middle schoolers from North Andover Middle School.
[00:51:50] If it weren't for them and the work that they did together with our teacher, Carrie LaPierre, we would not be sitting here today. We would not be making the documentary, and we wouldn't be [00:52:00] having this conversation. So guys, thank you to North and over Middle School, cuz you guys are amazing.
[00:52:07] Josh Hutchinson: This has been such a great conversation. In many ways don't want it to end. I thank you both for your powerful insights into humanity and the things that we can be working on to improve ourselves. Thank you for that.
[00:52:24] Sarah Jack: Welcome to this episode's Witchcraft Fear Victim Advocacy Report, sponsored by End Witch Hunts News. You have been hearing Witch Hunt Happenings in Your World from me. Who has heard about these crimes from you? Have you looked up any news? Have you checked out the Africa advocacy links in our episode show notes? Who did you say you have mentioned it to?
[00:52:45] This week I attended the Colorado Podcaster's Meetup events sponsored by Podfest Expo and others at the Great Divide Brewery in Denver. I enjoyed meeting other creative conversors out here in the West who run various podcasts of their own. Check Thou [00:53:00] Shalt Not Suffer's podcast social media to see all of us.
[00:53:03] I had the chance to tell these podcasters that witch hunts are a very relevant conversation. I talked about the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and that Alice Young, the first accused Witch, executed in the American colonies, died in Hartford 375 years ago and is still waiting for her good name to be restored.
[00:53:23] She was not using witchcraft to harm others. Neither were the dozens of others accused in the Connecticut colony. If she and the other 10 hanged for witchcraft are exonerated by the state of Connecticut, it will be because we advocated for them. Also, those who have been cleared and memorialized by Massachusetts were not harming others with witchcraft. This week, our episode was about Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. of Andover, Massachusetts, and how she was finally advocated for after she remained overlooked in previous Salem Witch Trial exoneration efforts. Each of these exoneration efforts happened because of advocacy from humans like you. It didn't just occur [00:54:00] for Elizabeth because she was actually not a harmful Witch, but it happened because a mighty, collaborative effort from the community spanning young and old came together to make it happen. Likewise, efforts to stop the witch attacks in Asia and Africa must come from other people, people who can use their voice to talk about it and to stand against it.
[00:54:20] This month, a woman lost her life due to superstition fears in the Gaia District of Bihar in the Jarkhand state of India. She was burned alive at her home after neighbors accused her of being a witch. She was 45. You can find a news link in our episode notes.
[00:54:38] Pre-pandemic, Global Journalist reported this, "for many, witch trials may seem like a relic of early colonial America. But in fact witch-hunting is still a feature of rural life today around the world. One place where it's prevalent is India. On average, an Indian woman is killed every other day after being accused of witchcraft, according to government [00:55:00] statistics. Many are tortured or publicly humiliated before being burned, stabbed or beaten to death."
[00:55:07] I will be researching and reporting more in India. While we watch and wait, let's support the victims in India and across the world where innocent people are being targeted by superstitious fear. Support them by acknowledging and sharing their stories. Please use all your communication channels to be an intervener and stand with them.
[00:55:24] The world must stop hunting witches. Please follow our End Witch Hunts movement on Twitter @_endwitchhunts. And visit our website, endwitchhunts.org.
[00:55:35] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah, for that moving and powerful update.
[00:55:39] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:55:41] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:55:45] Sarah Jack: Join us next week for our guest, Greg Houle, an author writing a book about the Salem Putnams.
[00:55:53] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:55:56] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com often.[00:56:00]
[00:56:00] Josh Hutchinson: And join our Discord for discussion of our episodes. Link in the show notes.
[00:56:06] Sarah Jack: Follow us on social media, links in description.
[00:56:11] Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends and family and coworkers, and shout it from a mountaintop, about Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:56:22] Sarah Jack: So long for now.
[00:56:23] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
[00:56:27]
Presenting Malcolm Gaskill, one of Britain’s leading experts in the history of witchcraft. He has authored several highly acclaimed books including: Witchfinders: A Seventeenth-Century English Tragedy, Between Two Worlds: How the English Became Americans and The Ruin of All Witches: Life and Death in the New World. Enjoy this interview that will inform your mind and engage your imagination. Join us now as we discuss the founding community of Springfield MA. including dialog on its founder, colonist William Pynchon, neighbor fallout, and the circumstances around the witchcraft accusations in the community. What will you find out about the real-life fairytale of Mary Lewis and brick maker Hugh Parsons? We look for answers to our advocacy questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?
Enjoy this special preview of our next episode featuring an engaging interview with Historian Malcolm Gaskill, the author of the book The Ruin of All Witches. This greatly anticipated Springfield, Massachusetts witch trial history book releases November 1, 2022 in the United States. Pre-order yours today.
Listen as we talk with actor and playwright Michael Cormier and Punctuate4 president and artistic director Myriam Cyr about their upcoming play Saltonstall’s Trial.
This is a cover up story. It’s the story that takes a look at a Salem Witch Trial Judge that most people have never heard of, Nathaniel Saltonstal. He stood up against social injustice and questioned the legitimacy of the trial proceedings. Due to his intervention, he was able to bring prevailing common sense into the accused witch hunt debate.
Don’t miss the Boston Massachusetts staged-reading of the updated script on October 27, 2022 at 7 pm. It is at the Modern Theater, 525 Washington St, Boston, MA 02111. Thanks to the Ford Hall Forum admission is free. Registration for free tickets available at link below. Limited tickets. Wheelchair accessible entrance.
Join us for a fun bonus episode, as we review both Hocus Pocus movies and share our thoughts on the real history of the Salem Witch Trials, as it relates to the films.
SPOILER ALERT. We take a deep dive into the details of Hocus Pocus and Hocus Pocus 2.
We discuss:
What we like, as well as what we’re not so fond of.
How events in the movie compare to events in the real-life Salem Witch Trials and other witch-hunts.
The identity of Sarah Jessica Parker’s ancestor who was accused of witchcraft during the Salem Witch-Hunt.
Theories about the origins of the Sanderson sisters.
We interview Ballet Des Moines artistic director Tom Mattingly and creative director Jami Milne about their new ballet, Salem, which will be performed October 20-22 and October 27-29, 2022 at Stoner Studio Theatre in Des Moines, IA. The ballet tells an original story, based upon the Salem Witch Trials, with attention to historical details.