Tag: witch-hunting

  • Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials 101 Part 1: 1648-1656

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Listen in Your Favorite App

    Listen and subscribe wherever you enjoy podcasts:

    Show Notes

    In Part 1 of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast’s Massachusetts Witchcraft Trials 101 series, we start at the beginning of witch hunt history in Massachusetts Bay Colony, decades before the famous Salem Witch-Hunt. This episode focuses on the stories of those accused of witchcraft who faced trial in Boston, including Margaret Jones, Alice Lake, Elizabeth Kendall, Anne Hibbins, John Bradstreet, Jane Walford, and Eunice Cole.

    The Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project is asking for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts to proclaim the innocence of its witch trial victims.  The convicted victims talked about in this episode have not been exonerated, and no Massachusetts witchcraft trial victim has received an official apology. Please visit our project website at 
    massachusettswitchtrials.org for more, and please take a moment to sign and share the project petition at change.org/witchtrials

    Petition to recognize those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
    List of those accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts
    Witch-Hunting in Seventeenth Century New England
    The Devil in the Shape of a Woman
    Entertaining Satan: Witchcraft and the Culture of Early New England
    End Witch Hunts

    Transcript

    [00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, the show that asks why we hunt witches and how we can stop hunting witches. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:20] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. This episode is the first part of a Massachusetts Witch Trial 101 series.
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: We're so glad to be able to give this part of history the detailed coverage it deserves.
    [00:00:33] Sarah Jack: Massachusetts had more witch trials than just Salem.
    [00:00:37] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. Before 1692, witchcraft trials were held in Boston.
    [00:00:42] Sarah Jack: Let's dive into the details.
    [00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: Though rumors of witchcraft arose soon after settlement of the Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies, and were certainly making rounds by 1638, when Governor John Winthrop wrote that Jane Hawkins "grew into suspicion to be a witch", it took many years of suspicions under normal circumstances to trigger formal witchcraft complaints.
    [00:01:09] Sarah Jack: Between 1648 and 1693, two hundred and seventeen individuals were formally charged with witchcraft, and several others sued their accusers for slander. For a complete list of victims, visit massachusettswitchtrials.org
    [00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: 156 people are verified to have been formally accused during the Salem Witch Hunt.
    [00:01:35] Sarah Jack: And 61 were accused before Salem.
    [00:01:38] Josh Hutchinson: A total of 38 were convicted, 30 in Salem and 8 in Boston.
    [00:01:44] Sarah Jack: In all 24 were hanged and one was pressed to death in Massachusetts . These 24 hanged included my ancestor, Rebecca nurse,
    [00:01:54] Josh Hutchinson: And our mutual ancestor, Mary Esty.
    [00:01:58] Sarah Jack: You know the 19 hanged in Salem, and you know Giles Corey's story, but do you know the 5 victims who were hanged in Boston between 1648 and 1688?
    [00:02:08] Josh Hutchinson: And over the years, at least six additional people died in jail while awaiting either trial or execution for witchcraft.
    [00:02:18] Sarah Jack: In total, 118 people were indicted, including my ancestor, Mary Hale.
    [00:02:24] Josh Hutchinson: And my ancestor, Mary Osgood, as well as several of my aunts, uncles, and cousins. 
    [00:02:30] Sarah Jack: Another 99 were complained of, arrested, jailed, and/or examined, but their cases did not go to trial.
    [00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: In many of these cases, we simply do not have complete records to know the outcomes.
    [00:02:46] Sarah Jack: Contrary to popular belief, confessing to witchcraft did not save your life. Before Salem, several confessors were put to death in both the Massachusetts and Connecticut Colonies.
    [00:02:57] Josh Hutchinson: During Salem, several who had confessed to witchcraft were indeed condemned to die and death warrant was issued and a date set for execution. However, the governor stepped in and metaphorically called the warden at the last minute. Those who had been condemned were reprieved.
    [00:03:21] Sarah Jack: I want to hear about the first woman formally charged with witchcraft.
    [00:03:25] Josh Hutchinson: The first woman formally charged with witchcraft in Massachusetts was Margaret Jones, who was accused in 1648. We know about her case primarily through the journal of Governor John Winthrop and a book by minister John Hale, which was written a full 49 years after Margaret's trial. 
    According to John Hale's recollection, Margaret "was suspected partly because that after some angry words passing between her and her neighbors, some mischief befell such neighbors in their creatures or the like." These neighbors used counter magic to identify the witch who'd bewitched or charmed certain objects, which they burned. Margaret unfortunately came to the house where the objects were burning at the worst possible time and was assumed to be the witch. 
    According to Winthrop, Margaret was a healer, but one whose malignant touch could cause deafness, vomiting, and "other violent pains or sickness," and whose medicines also had unspecified "violent effects." But if someone didn't use her medicine, she told them they would never be well, and accordingly, they never got well. Margaret was also supposed to be able to foretell the future, and she knew things that she wasn't privy to from private conversations in private houses. 
    During the investigation, Margaret and her husband, Thomas, were both watched. Now watching was an English technique for detecting witches, which was popularized by the self-defined Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins, during his East Anglia witch hunt in the mid 1640s. Watching involved sitting a suspect in a room, keeping them awake hour after hour, and watching to see if an imp or familiar would come in to feed, because witches were said to feed their imps and familiars from teats, which were often hidden in their secret parts. 
    Men would take shifts watching, instructed to keep the victim awake no matter what and use any means necessary to wake them up if they did fall asleep, because also once the person was sleep deprived, they were more likely to confess.
    [00:06:22] Sarah Jack: Couldn't the watcher become sleep deprived?
    [00:06:25] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And in this case, while Margaret was being watched, one of the watchers saw a small child in her arms who ran away into another room and then vanished when the watcher followed. Perhaps the watcher himself was suffering sleep deprivation, as you said, Sarah. But others also claimed to see this apparent familiar in different locations associated with Margaret at other times.
    In addition to being watched, Margaret was examined for witch's teets and was found to have one in her secret parts. They described it as being "as fresh as if it had been newly sucked, and after it had been scanned, upon a forced search, that was withered, and another began on the opposite side."
    Alice Stratton attempted to defend Margaret by saying that the teats were just scars from a difficult childbirth, just as Rebecca Nurse argued in Salem 44 years later. Subsequently, Alice Stratton would find herself accused of witchcraft. Ultimately, Margaret was convicted, and she was condemned to die by hanging.
    On the day she was to be executed, young John Hale and some neighbors went to the prison and exhorted her to confess and repent. They were not there to save her life. They were there to save her soul. However, she refused to belie herself and maintained her innocence up until her death later that day.
    Now, according to John Winthrop, the same day and hour she was executed, there was a very great tempest at Connecticut, which blew down many trees. Then, following Margaret Jones's execution, her husband Thomas tried to board a ship to Barbados but was refused passage due to lack of payment. While anchored at Charlestown, before it could even get underway on the Charles River to Boston Harbor, this ship, carrying a load of 80 horses, began rocking side to side violently, though the weather was calm. And so this continued for 12 hours.
    At some point while the ship was struggling, a witness ran to the county court, which was in session, and told the magistrates about the rocking and also told them about how Thomas Jones had been denied passage on that ship and hey, wasn't it weird that the husband of an executed witch would be refused passage and then the ship would have these troubles? The magistrates agreed with that logic. How could you not? So they send an officer over to arrest Thomas. 
    Now, according to the account of Winthrop, as the officer was crossing over on the ferry, someone said to him, "you can tame men sometimes, can't you tame this ship?" And the officer answered, "I have that here that it may be will tame her and make her be quiet." As the officer was showing his arrest warrant to this other person, the ship slowly began to stop swaying. The stoppage of the swaying was completed once Thomas was behind bars.
    Unfortunately, we don't have good records to show us what became of Thomas after this incident. We don't know how he lived out the rest of his life.
    [00:10:36] Sarah Jack: Do we know anything of their children? She had a birthing scar.
    [00:10:40] Josh Hutchinson: We don't have anything about their children. We have very scant records of this couple. We basically know about them through the witch trials.
    [00:10:51] Sarah Jack: We know that there were accused witches who didn't have a full house of children or they lost their pregnancies or infants.
    [00:11:04] Josh Hutchinson: We will talk about that during this episode, because there is a recurring theme of childless women who were perceived by the others to have child envy and want a child for their own by any means necessary, including witchery.
    [00:11:27] Sarah Jack: Let's talk about Alice Lake from Dorchester. She was a wife of Henry, a mother of four. We don't have a lot of information on Alice Lake, but what we know is sad. We know that later she confessed that she "played the harlot" when she was young and single. During that time, she became pregnant. In trying to hide her shame, she attempted to terminate that pregnancy but failed. Following this event, she considered herself to be a murderer, because she had made the attempt. As shown by the cases we've already covered and many still to come, infanticide and perceived sexual immorality are more reoccurring themes in witch trial accusations.
    According to Nathaniel Mather, brother of Increase Mather, when another child died, Alice Lake was visited by the devil in the child's shape. 
    The exact timing of Alice's trial is unknown, but she is believed to have been executed in about 1650. As with Margaret Jones, Alice received visitors on the day of her execution, who likewise pleaded with her to confess and repent. They were trying to save her soul. Following her execution, Henry moved to Portsmouth, Rhode Island. Four children remained in Dorchester, where one died. The other three later moved to Rhode Island and then uprooted to Plymouth Colony with their father. 
    We have heard from Alice Lake descendants.
    [00:13:00] Josh Hutchinson: We have, and we want to hear from more descendants. If you're out there listening to us, please get in touch. The contact information is in the show description.
    Another person accused of witchcraft around this same time was Elizabeth Kendall of Cambridge. Again, like Alice Lake, the date of Elizabeth's trial cannot be pinned down but is believed to have been somewhere between 1647 and 1651. The one and only source that we have for her case is John Hale's book, A Modest Enquiry into the Nature of Witchcraft, which wasn't published until 1702, so only very limited information is available about Elizabeth. 
    What we know from Hale is that she was accused by a nurse from Watertown, who claimed that Elizabeth had bewitched a child to death. This nurse stated that Elizabeth made much of the child and it was well, but then it changed color and it died a few hours later. On the basis of this witness testimony and other, unspecified evidence, Elizabeth was hanged, despite her own protest of innocence. 
    After the hanging, Watertown's deputy to the General Court, Mr. Richard Brown, questioned the parents of the child, the Jenningses. This couple told him they hadn't suspected Elizabeth at all. They'd actually believed the nurse was to blame for the child's death, because she had kept them out in the cold. Later, the nurse was jailed for alleged adultery. While there in the jail, she gave birth to a child born out of wedlock. For this, Mr. Brown visited her and told her off, saying, "it was just with God to leave her to this wickedness, as a punishment for her murdering Goody Kendall by her false witness bearing. The unnamed nurse died in prison, and her false allegation was never investigated any further, and Hale did not note what happened to the child that was born in prison.
    [00:15:26] Sarah Jack: Here's a couple that should be familiar to you if you've been reading an important history book this past year. Mary Lewis Parsons and her husband, Hugh, were formally charged with witchcraft in Massachusetts. They were featured in our fifth episode with Malcolm Gaskill on his book, The Ruin of All Witches, and will be featured again in our next Massachusetts 101 episode, along with fellow Springfield residents, the widow Mercy Marshfield, another Mary Parsons, and Alice Young Beamon, daughter of Alice Young of Windsor, as well as a few familiar faces from down the Connecticut River.
    [00:16:07] Josh Hutchinson: In 1652, John Bradstreet of Rowley was charged with witchcraft and presented to the Essex County Quarter Court. Allegedly, John had been claiming to perform magic and saying he was hearing mysterious voices. These things led to suspicion that he had familiarity with the devil. According to the complaint against him, he said he read in a book of magic and that he heard a voice asking him what work he had for him. He answered, "go make a bridge of sand over the sea. Go make a ladder of sand up to heaven. And go to God and come down no more." The court, reviewing this evidence, ruled that John had not actually committed witchcraft but had simply lied about it, a decision that they would make in certain cases for a handful of men.
    [00:17:06] Sarah Jack: I was just gonna say, "wait a minute."
    [00:17:09] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, they never did this for women, but men, they would say, "oh, you can't be a witch, you're just lying about it. So you're on a first name basis with the devil, but you lied about that." Whereas women, they just say, "take a hike." 
    So the court ruled that he just lied about it, and he had also been convicted of lying previously in 1650, so this was considered a repeat offense, and so they ordered him to either pay a fine of 20 shillings or submit to a whipping if he couldn't pay.
    [00:17:49] Sarah Jack: A ladder of sand, that's interesting.
    [00:17:54] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. This guy was like, "you build me something impossible," and are basically just telling the devil to get lost. And even though he told the devil basically to leave, or whoever the voice was that he was hearing, he told them to leave, but he still got in trouble for talking to them.
    [00:18:18] Sarah Jack: Jane Walford of Portsmouth was accused of witchcraft in 1648 and won a defamation suit against her accuser, Elizabeth Rowe, who was ordered to apologize and pay two pounds plus court costs. Eight years later in 1656, Elizabeth Rowe's husband, Nicholas Rowe, and six others brought witchcraft accusations against Jane Walford to the court. This time, magistrates bound her over for 20 pounds as assurance she would attend the next court session. 
    Nicholas Rowe claimed in court that Jane Walford came to him in bed in the evening and put her hand on his breast so that he could not speak, and he was in great pain till the next day. Witness Susannah Trimmings said that on the evening of March 30th, 1656, on her way home, "she heard a rustling in the woods, and presently after, there did appear to her a woman whom she apprehended to be Old Goodwife Walford. She asked me where my consort was. I answered I had none. She said, ' thy consort is at home by this time. Lend me a pound of cotton.' I told her I had but two pounds in the house, and I would not spare any to my mother. She said I had better have done it, that my sorrow was great already, and it should be greater for I was going a great journey, but should never come there. She then left me, and I was struck as with a clap of fire on the back, and she vanished towards the water side, in my apprehension in the shape of a cat."
    That night, according to Goodman Trimmings, Susannah was ill, a condition which persisted at least until April 18th, when the Trimmings gave in their testimony. Elisa Barton said she was there while Susannah was sick, and her face was colored and spotted with several colors. Her eyes looked as if they'd been scalded.
    An unidentified witness testified in June that he was actually with the Walfords on March 30th, and Jane was at home at least until it was very dark out.
    [00:20:25] Josh Hutchinson: He's her alibi.
    [00:20:27] Sarah Jack: John Puddington claimed that three years ago, Jane Walford said that her own husband called her an old witch. Agnes Puddington claimed that on April 11th, 1656, Mrs. Evans came over and lay at her house all night. Around sunset, Agnes saw a yellowish cat, and Mrs. Evans was like, "a cat has been following me all around, everywhere I go." John Puddington then tried to shoot a cat in the garden, but it got up on a tree, and the gun wouldn't fire. Following that, Agnes saw three cats but could not tell which way they went as they exited the area. 
    Three unnamed witnesses claimed that Elizabeth Rowe said Strawberry Bank had three male witches. They were Thomas Turpin, who had drowned, a second man called Old Ham, and the third was "nameless because he should be blameless."
    [00:21:18] Josh Hutchinson: Nameless because he should be blameless. That totally sounds like a Johnny Cochrane court statement. OJ Simpson should be nameless because he should be blameless.
    [00:21:33] Sarah Jack: This testimony against Jane Walford did not sway the court. Upon a magisterial review of the evidence, Jane was cleared by proclamation, so her witness was key.
    [00:21:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, her alibi held up. Susanna Trimmings' statement did not fit, so they did acquit.
    [00:21:52] Sarah Jack: In 1659, Jane won a slander case against Robert Couch, a physician who claimed he could prove she was a witch. How was he proving it? This time, she was awarded six pounds.
    [00:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: I bet he was going to look at her secret parts.
    [00:22:09] Sarah Jack: It's very likely.
    The stigma of witchcraft remained with Jane even beyond her death and passed down to her five daughters.
    [00:22:18] Josh Hutchinson: Now we're turning our attention to Mrs. Anne Hibbins, who was accused of witchcraft in 1655. Now, Anne had immigrated to Boston with her second husband, William, back in the 1630s, leaving three sons behind in England. After arriving in Massachusetts, William set up a shop as a merchant and also got into politics.
    Things were going well for the couple, when a dramatic business error cost William 500 pounds, which was a huge sum of money that people would literally probably have killed for back in that day, because the average person had an estate, probably more in the 100 to 200 pound range. So this is way more than what other people have total.
    [00:23:13] Sarah Jack: Unexpected financial devastation.
    [00:23:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And what brings tension into a marriage more than an unexpected financial burden? And so this is often cited as occasioning a major personality change in Anne. Thomas Hutchinson later wrote that "losses in the latter part of [William's] life had reduced his estate," and this is Thomas Hutchinson saying this, not Josh Hutchinson, "increased the natural crabbedness of his wife's temper, which made her turbulent and quarrelsome." And there's that word again. We've got another quarrelsome dame, yet another one of those themes that pops up. A woman speaks her mind, so she becomes quarrelsome and therefore suspect, because who but the devil's handmaiden would be so damned quarrelsome.
    [00:24:24] Sarah Jack: Exactly.
    [00:24:26] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So despite the financial setbacks, William continued to be elected to public office.
    They had this financial setback, and then in 1640, the family suffered a different kind of setback. This began as a dispute between Anne and some joiners, who were a type of carpenter, that had done some work on the Hibbins house, and this dispute escalated big time owing probably to Anne's assertive, or quarrelsome, nature, depending who you talk to. Anne didn't like the quality of the work. She didn't like the price that she was charged in the end. So she was very agitated, and once she got going on this, she wouldn't let it go. 
    The church steps in and tries to mediate, because the joiner that she's arguing with is also a member of the church that she's a member of, which is at the time in 1640, the one, just called the Boston Church. So the church elders, the minister, people are getting involved in this, and ultimately decide that Anne is raising a fuss about nothing, and the men are right, and she should mind her place in society, and shut her mouth. And so they tried to make peace, but she wouldn't accept it. And because she wouldn't accept what the church had offered to mediate, and because she was usurping her husband's authority as the head of the household, she was excommunicated in 1641, even though her husband was this prominent figure being elected to offices. They still kicked her out, said, "you're not welcome in church anymore," and they literally told her, "you can go to hell now." But whatever ill will Bostonians harbored toward Anne, they didn't seem to hold it against William, who was elected an Assistant. This is the upper house of the Massachusetts legislature at the time, the General Court, the House of Assistants, and he's elected to that in 1643 and reelected every year until his death in 1654. 
    But once William was out of the picture, it didn't take long for the neighbors to come for Anne. The year after he passed, Anne was tried for witchcraft by the Court of Assistants, the very institution to which her husband had belonged for nearly a dozen years.
    And here's another theme that we see recurring, widows with money appear to have been more vulnerable to witchcraft prosecution. We see the same thing happen in Connecticut with Katherine Harrison. When John Harrison dies, the neighbors really turn on Katherine, and she ends up being charged with witchcraft, just like Anne here.
    She's vulnerable. There's no husband. She doesn't have any male relatives in the colony. Her sons are back in England, remember? So they're not going to be any help. And basically there's no men around who the other men would actually listen to. So the men are just saying, "oh, that, that woman over there, she's been in trouble for years and years. She must be a witch."
    And Anne was convicted by the jury. The magistrates actually refused to accept the verdict and instead referred the case to the full General Court, which would include Assistants and the Deputies, and they held a retrial on May 14th, 1656. So this is about a year after her arrest, and she's convicted again. So this time, everybody just consents to the decision of the General Court, and she's hanged June 19th, 1656.
     So the decision to hang Mrs. Anne Hibbins was not popular with everybody. There was an element out there talking against this. Bravely, minister John Horton is said to have said, "Mistress Hibbins was hanged for a witch only for having more wit than her neighbors."
    [00:29:40] Sarah Jack: You think about these women who were retried. It could have gone either way. 
    [00:29:47] Josh Hutchinson: The story of Eunice Cole begins in England and ends in New Hampshire, but is mainly a Massachusetts tale. 
    Okay, so here we've got a prototypical witch. This is your ordinary suspect kind of figure. Eunice Cole has a reputation also for being a quarrelsome dame, she has a checkered past with several arrests for different things, she's older, by the standards of the day, and impoverished. So here's basically this old, grumpy lady, but basically she's past her childbearing years, and she's got no money. She's very vulnerable, a person on the fringe of society.
    Rewinding back a while, it's 1637, and William Cole is in the employ of a merchant in London, England. But William, he longs to go to New England, so he makes a deal with his boss, and his boss says, "okay, I'll let you off the hook for future service, and I'll pay for your passage across the Atlantic and your wife's passage, if you agree to send me 10 pounds once you get over there." So they make this deal, they travel over.
     In November, 1637, a bill is sent to them, and this still exists today, somehow, remarkably, and states the nature of this agreement. So that's how we have all this information. Another bill, actually a claim filed in court against William Cole 20 years later for the same debt, also exists. William couldn't come up with 10 pounds in 20 years. He couldn't save half a pound a year. That's just either shows you their financial situation, the dire straits that they're in most of that time, or maybe he just wasn't very happy with his old employer, and he didn't want to send him the money. He was like, "hey, I could use this 10 pounds. I got stuff to do."
    [00:32:34] Sarah Jack: He probably thought it was going to fall off the credit report after seven years.
    [00:32:38] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, exactly. But they're still after him after 20 years, they hire an agent in Massachusetts to pursue this for them. So they're really determined to get their 10 pounds. 
    Now once they were in New England, the Coles first settled south of Boston in a settlement called Mount Wollaston, which is now Braintree. In Mount Wollaston, William received what historian John Demos describes as a small land grant. Now this town was also the starting point in Massachusetts for the unorthodox minister John Wheelwright, who the Puritans deemed to be an antinomian. Wheelwright uprooted and, along with a lot of his flock, moved to Exeter, in what is today New Hampshire, at the time of the move, was outside of Massachusetts control.
    Now the joke's on them, because they get up there, and in 1643, Massachusetts says, "hey, we're making another county," the original Norfolk County. And this consists of basically anything between the Merrimack and Piscataqua and about a dozen miles inland from the ocean. So you've got the towns of Exeter, Hampton, Portsmouth, they're part of this new county along with Salisbury and Haverhill in what is still today Massachusetts.
    So William Cole goes up along with Wheelwright and becomes a founding member of this town. They signed a covenant agreeing to abide by godly laws that would be enacted by the town of Exeter, and William signed with his mark. The Coles lived in Exeter for five years, and in 1643, William was elected to serve the community as fenceviewer, which was actually an important job. It sounds odd today to say, "oh, we're hiring you to go around viewing fences." But at the time it was critical in keeping harmony between neighbors to make sure there weren't gaps in fences or loose parts that animals could get through and ravage a neighbor's yard, which going back again to Sarah's grandmother, Rebecca Nurse, pigs got into her garden and she got angry about that, and it's like the one recorded instance out of all the testimony against her where she showed anger, because pigs were eating her garden, and that's her vegetables and herbs and everything that she needs for cooking. Fence viewing was serious business.
    For unknown reasons, in 1644, the Coles uprooted once again and moved over to the coast to Hampton.
    [00:36:06] Sarah Jack: I really wish I knew why, because this is where things start to get really juicy.
    [00:36:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, once they get to Hampton, it gets real. Eunice starts getting arrested left and right. Their financial situation really just nosedives. It wasn't very good where they were, but it just bottoms out in Hampton. So in 1645, Eunice was charged with making "slanderous speeches" against some women.
    And in 1647, Eunice and William were charged for withholding pigs that were owed to the plaintiff in this case. Apparently they had made some arrangement where they were going to sell or give to this person pigs and they really, this person really wanted their pigs. So the court did rule in favor of the plaintiff and said, "Coles, you've got to hand over these swine."
    But the Coles, they decided to fight back and literally. The constable comes over to take the animals. The Coles start screaming their heads off. Eunice is reported to literally just be shouting, "murder, murder," and William is going, "there's thieves in this town. All these thieves in this town." And they're just shouting this. The constable grabs a pig or two, so the Coles, what do they do? They bite his hands. What else would you do? He takes your pigs, you bite his hands. He didn't drop the pigs, so they pushed him to the ground, and then they pulled the pigs from his arms. And after this, they faced more charges, but unfortunately, no record exists today of the outcome of these added charges. 
    That same year, William is rated on the Hampton tax list, he's in 51st place, income-wise, out of 60 people. By 1653, he is 72nd of 72, dead last in the financial hierarchy of Hampton. He is literally the poorest man in town. 
    Eunice, again, she went to court in 1651 and 1654 for similar things about mouthing off. And historian John Demos in his work, Entertaining Satan, Demos states that Eunice was involved in even more trials. We don't have records of those to know what they were all about.
    So now we get to the year 1656. Hampton has about 350 people. More than three out of five residents are under the age of 20. So they're all kids and teenagers, 62 percent of the population is under 20. So that leaves around 130 adults that are 20 or older. And among these adults and possibly even among the younger people,
    [00:39:48] Sarah Jack: Yeah, that just made me think about the influence of children on these witch trials sometimes.
    [00:39:52] Josh Hutchinson: We get to some good ones coming up.
    So suspicion is building about Eunice, the words getting around, the children have probably heard the gossip, maybe their parents have even told them some things about it, or they've asked, because you hear that Goody So-and-so's a witch, you go running to your parents like, "is she really a witch? Do I have to be afraid of her?" I would have so many questions and concerns as a child. 
    So this gossip is spreading. For one thing, it's because Eunice is an outspoken woman. Another count against her, she's got no children, so she's the antithesis of the godly housewife and mother that the Puritans expect women to be, and she would have felt that pressure. Even today, women report feeling intense pressure to get married, to have children, to be mothers. But back then, imagine just how intense that pressure would be on her. Everybody would be saying, "Eunice, you gotta have kids. You gotta have kids." And then by 1656, she's too old to have kids. So what does she do? According to neighbors, she was very interested in their children. And we'll talk about that in just a moment.
    Eunice often made snappy remarks when confronted, and one time she was bold enough to just barge into a meeting of the Hampton selectmen and demand that they give her aid, because they were giving aid to another couple that was somewhat better off, and yet the town's trying to say, "you've got resources, you have an estate, use that to pay your bills," and she just wasn't having it. So she just went in and told them what the deal was. 
    Now, a few days later, the man who was receiving the aid lost some livestock. So this follows the same worn, old pattern we see again and again. There's a difference of opinion, an exchange of words, and soon there's an injury or damage to something or someone valued by the person who's the target of the witch's malice.
    Now, as a child-free woman, as we've said, Eunice was immediately sus. But when she hung out at the bed of a neighbor's child who later died, many were convinced she had killed the child out of envy. And this child envy theme would feature heavily in her multiple arrests for witchcraft.
    But it wasn't only children that Eunice envied. Apparently livestock were also vulnerable to her jealous gaze. A witness testified that they had caught her eyeing their sheep and asked, "what on Earth are you staring at?" And Eunice supposedly said, "what is it to you, sawsbox?" 
    Another person who testified, Thomas Philbrick said he lost two calves and reported that cole had told him that if his calves "ate any of her grass, she wished it might poison them or choke them," and then they died. So of course it's gotta be her. It can't be a coincidence.
    [00:43:32] Sarah Jack: Didn't in America Bewitched, doesn't Owen Davies talk about the cattle getting ill? In the fur balls inside from the grass.
    [00:43:44] Josh Hutchinson: oh yeah. Yeah. The hairballs.
    So in 1656, Eunice was tried in Boston for witchcraft. A number of witnesses came out against her, representing the full spectrum of the income ranks of Hampton. There were upper class, middle class, lower class people engaged in testifying against Eunice. So in a lot of cases, it's middle class against middle class or maybe lower class against lower class, because it's generally who you're associated with most closely are the people that are actually going to accuse you. Who are you interacting with every day? And generally you don't see someone like a Eunice Cole interacting with the upper crust, and yet upper class residents are coming out to say that she has harmed them with her witchcraft.
    [00:44:52] Sarah Jack: It's a really good point.
    [00:44:54] Josh Hutchinson: Unfortunately, half of the depositions against her have been lost over the 300 some years since the trial.
    Now, Eunice, another thing that she's associated with is animal familiars. We talked about the watching and how they, the animals, imps or familiars would suckle on a witch's teat to get their nourishment. This is just watching her during Sunday meeting. Apparently minister's up there giving the sermon, and a woman named Mary Perkins sees a mouse just pop out of Eunice's cleavage and scurry away. At another service, a witness heard a sound like the whine of hungry puppies coming from under Eunice, very suspicious, of course. 
     Another charge leveled at this time was that Eunice bewitched the oven of the constable who brought her aid when aid was rendered to the Coles. This person who brought her the food and fuel, apparently he had more bread at home than he was bringing to her, so that's unfair. And apparently she was vindictive because he had more than she had, and she cursed the stove so that the owners couldn't make their own bread at home.
    In a loss that has frustrated historians to no end, there's no record of the verdict in Eunice's 1656 trial. So historians debate whether she was convicted or not. Now, she wasn't executed, so John Demos contends that she was likely not convicted, because witchcraft's a capital crime, and you're basically automatically executed if you're convicted. But there's a record that Eunice was whipped and that she was imprisoned indefinitely, so historians, including Carol F. Karlsen, argue that Eunice was most likely convicted but spared death for unknown reasons, because if she wasn't convicted, why was she whipped and committed to jail for life or the pleasure of the court? 
    [00:47:38] Sarah Jack: But there are no other known accused witches from the mid 1650s that were convicted and jailed.
    [00:47:47] Josh Hutchinson: Right. The others all leading up to this that were convicted, we've covered Margaret Jones, Alice Lake, Elizabeth Kendall, Ann Hibbins. They're all executed after convicted. One we'll cover in the next episode, Hugh Parsons, gets convicted, but then he gets acquitted in a new trial, and then he has to leave for Rhode Island.
    Whatever the case with Eunice, the 1656 trial was far from the last time that she was persecuted as a witch. Indeed, she would reside in the Boston jail off and on for the next dozen years and would face more courts on witchcraft charges over a span of about 25 years. Now, the man who whipped her was Salisbury Constable Richard Ormsby, and he claimed that when he stripped her shirt off to whip her, he saw under one of her breasts "a blue thing like unto a teat hanging downward about three quarters of an inch long, some blood with other moistness." So here's another document stating that she was whipped, she had been charged with witchcraft, and then she was whipped. 
    So while she's in jail, maybe in the first year that she's in there, she petitioned for early release on the basis of her age, and especially the age of her husband, William, who was about 88 years old and needed her help. She also bemoaned the plight of her estate, and she promised good behavior if released, but the court's response has not survived, and she apparently remained in jail for a little while, but Eunice may have been back in Hampton in 1658. John Demos points out a 1659 town record that includes a notation of a payment of five shillings to constable Richard Ormsby for expense about G. Cole, presumably Goodwife Eunice Cole. And this entry's marked 58, so presumably it's about 1658. 
    So now in 1659, the even more aged William Cole petitioned for relief. He couldn't farm anymore, had no children, and he couldn't afford to hire a farm worker. He had received some aid previously from the town in 1658, but one of the problems that he had was that he'd signed over the property to his wife in 1656, and she keeps being in and outta jail, so it's hard to manage her property. She's not there. He's considerably aged and can't really take care of himself the way that he used to. So the general court gets this and they invalidate the transfer of the deed to Eunice Cole. And then they ordered the town of Hampton to take possession of the estate and use the proceeds from it to support the Coles. 
    Within a year of the 1659 petition, Eunice was back in Hampton, again getting in trouble for unseemly speeches. In 1660, she's charged for this, because she allegedly asked a girl named Huldah Hussey, "where's your mother, Mingay, that whore? She's abed with your father, that whoremaster." And this gets her in big trouble. This is something you don't just go and say to a girl back then. 
    By 1662, Eunice was back in the Boston prison, and she again petitioned for her release. That same year, William Cole died, May 26th, 1662. And after his death, Eunice was totally destitute. He was already the poorest man in town, and his income gets taken away. Now there's a complicated situation with his will. He, for some reason, maybe because Eunice was in jail, I don't know, he decides that he's going to bequeath his property to another man and so the town of Hampton, which is supposed to control the Coles' property, doesn't like this, so Hampton petitioned the General Court regarding William's will and also the possible return of Eunice Cole that they were worried about that year.
    On October 8th, 1662, the General Court met and declared, "that the said Eunice Cole pay what is due on arrears to the keeper and be released the prison on condition that she depart within one month after her release out of this jurisdiction and not to return again on penalty of her former sentence being executed against her." So she's more or less released on parole, and she doesn't stay out of jail very long before she's back in trouble. 
    By October 1663, the county court had split William Cole's estate between Thomas Webster and Eunice Cole, who received a grand total of eight pounds to take care of her for the rest of her life. And this eight pounds doesn't even go to her, because it's ordered to go straight to the Hampton selectmen so they can provide for her upkeep. 
    And then, once more, in 1665, Eunice submitted a petition to the general court to be released from imprisonment. So at some point she was put back in the jail. The court this time agrees to release her only if she gave security and left the colony forever. She couldn't pay. She had to remain in jail. 
    But sometime between 1668 and 1671, Eunice was released, because by 1671, she was back in Hampton, totally broke. Now the town built a home for her. By tradition, it's a small hut. Anyways, they give her the shelter, and they ordered that each family in town would take turns providing food and fuel a week at a time.
    In 1673, she was charged again with witchcraft and in court in Boston. This time she's accused of shape-shifting into human and animal forms to convince a girl, Ann Smith, to live with her. Again, this is the child envy thing coming up. She's supposed to be basically a child snatcher. And she desperately wants one of her own and will use her witchcraft to attain what she desires, according to the townsfolk.
    She's accused of many other things, acquitted on all charges. However, the court specified that though she was not legally guilty of witchcraft, the court vehemently suspected she had familiarity with the devil.
    In 1680, New Hampshire was granted its own status, independent of Massachusetts. That very year, once New Hampshire becomes its own thing, Hampton residents take Eunice back to court, complaining against her once more for witchcraft. And we'll have even more on this 1680 episode, because more people were involved in this than just Eunice. This was a miniature witch panic.
    In 1680, the court didn't find enough evidence to bring her to trial. The Hampton Court, like the Massachusetts General Court before it, "vehemently suspects her so to be a witch."
    Now, fast forward to 1938. Hampton celebrated its 300th birthday, and one of the things that they did was actually recognize Eunice Cole. At a town meeting, the citizens of Hampton unanimously passed a resolution to clear her name. The resolution stated, "we believe that Eunice (Goody) Cole was unjustly accused of witchcraft and familiarity with the devil in the 17th century, and we do hereby restore to the said Eunice (Goody) Cole a rightful place as a citizen of the town of Hampton." and today, a stone memorial to Eunice stands on the town green, and the town hall houses an urn which is said to contain Eunice's remains. 
    Earlier this year, a bill to exonerate Eunice at a state level was voted down by the New Hampshire Senate after having passed the House. So now the Massachusetts Witch-Hunt Justice Project seeks to have her good name restored by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Eunice Cole deserves to be exonerated and to receive an apology.
    [00:58:05] Sarah Jack: The witch hunt victims we have discussed today need your voice. The four innocent people we covered who were convicted and executed in Boston have not been exonerated, and they are not alone. Others were convicted in Boston in the years before the Salem Witch Hunt. In addition, none of the alleged witches of Massachusetts have ever received an apology. Thou Shalt Not Suffer would like to see exoneration for those convicted and an apology for all accused, whether the case was handled out of Boston, Salem, or anywhere else in Massachusetts. Our petition is available at change.org/witchtrials. Sign and share today. 
    [00:58:49] Josh Hutchinson: We hope you've enjoyed this first episode of our Massachusetts Witch Trials 101 series. And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [00:59:01] Sarah Jack: Join us again next week and stay tuned for another Massachusetts 101 next month.
    [00:59:06] Josh Hutchinson: Please rate and review the show wherever you're listening.
    [00:59:10] Sarah Jack: And don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
    [00:59:12] Josh Hutchinson: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [00:59:16] Sarah Jack: And check out endwitchhunts.org. Goodbye. 
    [00:59:21] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
    
  • Halloween History and Traditions with Scott Culpepper

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Listen in Your Favorite App

    Listen and subscribe wherever you enjoy podcasts:

    Show Notes

    An engaging conversation on Halloween history and traditions, witchcraft, horror films, jack-o-lanterns, ghosts, zombies, the Satanic Panic, and more. We welcome back the podcast’s inaugural historian guest, Dr. Scott Culpepper, a historian, storyteller, author and Professor of History at Dordt University in Sioux Center, IA.  After listening to this episode, be sure to return to episode 3 where he kicked off our historian episodes last year discussing the Connecticut Witch Trials in depth.

    Dr. Culpepper’s Blog, The Imaginative Historian
    YouTube – Connecticut Witch Trials with Dr. Scott Culpepper
    Dr. Scott Culpepper Professor Profile
    Sign the Petition to Exonerate those Accused of Witchcraft in Massachusetts
    Buy Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night, by Nicholas Rogers
    Upcoming Events with Author and Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project Cofounder Beth Caruso
    Leo Igwe, AfAW
    Join One of Our Projects
    Support Us! Buy Book Titles Mentioned in this Episode from our Book Shop
    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener
    End Witch Hunts Movement
    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!
    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!
    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.
    Website
    Twitter
    Facebook
    Instagram
    Pinterest
    LinkedIn
    YouTube
    TikTok
    Discord

    Transcript

    [00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to a haunted episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:18] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack-o'-lantern.
    [00:00:22] Josh Hutchinson: We're talking about the history of Halloween with Dr. Scott Culpepper.
    [00:00:26] Sarah Jack: Lore and the history.
    [00:00:30] Josh Hutchinson: Find out why we do certain things that we do every year at Halloween time and find out where the holiday came from.
    [00:00:39] Sarah Jack: What might have they been up to centuries before?
    [00:00:45] Josh Hutchinson: What is Samhain? What did they do at Samhain? Did they do human sacrifices?
    [00:00:51] Sarah Jack: If this episode was a neighborhood for trick or treating, we hit every house.
    [00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: Full size candy bars for everyone.
    [00:01:00] Sarah Jack: All Souls Day, All Saints Day, Hallowtide, Day of the Dead. You'll hear a little bit about everything.
    [00:01:09] Josh Hutchinson: Yes! Where do all these different Halloween things come from? Where did we get jack-o'-lanterns from? Who is this Great Pumpkin I've been hearing so much about?
    [00:01:21] Sarah Jack: What kind of things do people get up to? Why is Halloween rebellious? 
    [00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Why is Halloween a night you get to act out? We'll talk about the origins of the word Halloween itself. Where did that even come from? We'll learn how Halloween became an American thing.
    [00:01:43] Sarah Jack: Even though we're excited about Halloween and exploring its history, you can't talk about much of it without witches.
    [00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we do talk witches a lot in this episode, and Scott gives some great information on the connections between witchcraft and Halloween, and we talk about the Satanic Panic at the disco.
    [00:02:16] Sarah Jack: Did you say at the disco?
    [00:02:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. We talked about the colors, the candy, the costumes.
    [00:02:24] Sarah Jack: Hollywood and movies.
    [00:02:26] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, there was some discussion of Halloween favorites. Be thinking about yours when you hear our questions.
    [00:02:36] Sarah Jack: It was so great to have Dr. Culpepper back. When Dr. Culpepper talks history, you can picture it. 
    [00:02:44] Josh Hutchinson: I know you're going to have as much fun with this episode as we did.
    [00:02:48] Sarah Jack: We did have a lot of fun in this episode.
    [00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: So grab that bag of candy that you were thinking you were going to give to the trick or treaters and pop some kettle corn, drink some apple cider, and settle right in. 
    [00:03:06] Sarah Jack: Welcome back, Dr. Scott Culpepper, Professor of History at Dordt University, who holds a PhD in religion with an emphasis in historical and church state studies from Baylor University. He specializes in Europe and the Atlantic world with a particular emphasis on the intersections of politics, religions, and popular cultures. You will enjoy what he has to share. 
    [00:03:28] Josh Hutchinson: What is your favorite Halloween tradition?
    [00:03:32] Scott Culpepper: Ah, I think the whole haunted house thing. I just like to go in as an adult. I like to go into the haunted houses and be scared a little bit, but then I also like trick or treating. It's hard to put that second, but that's up there as well. Two of my favorite traditions.
    [00:03:49] Sarah Jack: Awesome. And what is your favorite Halloween candy?
    [00:03:53] Scott Culpepper: Ah, Nestle Crunch, which is my favorite candy overall.
    [00:03:57] Josh Hutchinson: Okay. So when you're trick or treating, you'd look forward to getting that in your basket.
    [00:04:04] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. Yeah, it was always fun as a kid, and then as a dad, to get to go along, do the ride along, and my kids like Nestle Crunch okay but it's not their favorite, so I was able to assist and then get rewarded with Nestle Crunch. It was always great.
    [00:04:19] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, that's perfect. That would be dangerous for me to be assisting anybody with trick or treating these days. We always have enough candy just at the house to give out to the trick or treaters.
    [00:04:32] Scott Culpepper: I don't think we ever ate all of ours. We had so much. Not that we didn't eat more than we should, but I can remember it being around in the house for months after.
    [00:04:42] Josh Hutchinson: What is your favorite Halloween movie?
    [00:04:45] Scott Culpepper: Oh, that's a good question. I think just because it's a classic of classics, Halloween, the original Halloween, and I like it just because of the atmosphere. It is very evocative of Halloween in middle America. And it's funny because, of course, it was filmed in California. We actually went to visit my daughter and we were in Los Angeles, and we went and saw the house, Michael Myers' house that was in the film, and we saw the yard next door, which was supposed to be Laurie Strode's house, the realty house. And it's crazy. It's just like in downtown Pasadena. You go around the corner and you've got California, palm trees all around, but you've got this one little street where they create the illusion of middle America.
    [00:05:29] Josh Hutchinson: It's funny how they're able to do that with a place like Pasadena. I know that's used in Back to the Future, Dr. Brown's house was in Pasadena.
    [00:05:39] Scott Culpepper: Yes.
    [00:05:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So I've been by that one.
    [00:05:43] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, it's been so impressive on our trips out there to go to the studios and all that and just see the magic of movie making. You've always known about it, but to actually see how they transform these spaces and just bring you into a very different reality from the place that you're actually in, it's just incredible.
    [00:06:00] Sarah Jack: That's awesome. And do you have a favorite Halloween topic?
    [00:06:06] Scott Culpepper: That's a good question. Witches, obviously, which is the topic that kind of draws all of us, the associations of Halloween festivals and ritual and lore with people's assumptions about witches and witchcraft and all of that. I like ghost stories, and so that's one of my favorite things, as well. And of course, being somebody who studies the Reformation and the fallout from both the Protestant and Catholic Reform movements, it's fascinating to me how there are very powerful influences, which we'll probably talk about later, stemming from that period into at least the precursors of what we now call Halloween.
    [00:06:45] Josh Hutchinson: We are excited to announce the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project, which seeks recognition of all of Massachusetts' witch trial victims.
    [00:06:56] Sarah Jack: According to the available research, the colonies of Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth took action against at least 211 different individuals.
    [00:07:06] Josh Hutchinson: Past legislation has focused on the 30 convicted during the Salem Witch Hunt, plus Giles Corey, who was pressed to death with stones. Legislation to date has not included 180 other individuals prosecuted by Massachusetts. 
    [00:07:26] Sarah Jack: The Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project proposes that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts restore to good standing those convicted of witchcraft and issue an apology to all who were accused and suffered the consequences of accusation.
    [00:07:41] Josh Hutchinson: This effort follows on the heels of the exoneration of Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. by Massachusetts in 2022 and the exoneration of 34 individuals by Connecticut in May, 2023.
    [00:07:53] Sarah Jack: We welcome individuals, schools, and organizations to be a part of making this project a success. Please visit massachusettswitchtrials.org to find out how you can volunteer.
    [00:08:05] Josh Hutchinson: Lend your voice and effort to speak for people like Tituba and little Dorothy Good, both jailed during the Salem Witch Hunt, all but forgotten to history.
    [00:08:14] Sarah Jack: These memorable victims, and many more, deserve to be formally recognized by name as innocent victims of Massachusetts witch trial history.
    [00:08:24] Josh Hutchinson: Sign the petition today. The link is in the show description. Thank you.
     
     
    [00:08:29] Josh Hutchinson: There doesn't seem to be a lot of knowledge generally about the origins of Halloween. Has the fear of Halloween hidden the knowledge, or is that from some other? Why do you think it's obscure?
    [00:08:46] Scott Culpepper: I think so. And not even so much that it's obscure as we have legendary ideas about where Halloween comes from. Probably most people have heard the term Samhain, the ancient Celtic festival, which supposedly is one of the precursors of Halloween. And a lot of people are aware of that, but they have a lot of folkloric sort of concepts of what that is, and rightfully so, because we really don't know much about what that festival was. Yeah, I think that is definitely one barrier to people learning more about the past of Halloween, and the legend that it's primarily a pagan holiday has really obscured the fact that it's got those very strong Christian roots and origins. Especially fundamentalist Christians, they'll go off on the pagan rites, and maybe even Greek and Roman rites if they're a little bit better read, that may have been precursors to Halloween, but they don't acknowledge the very deep roots of the observance in the history of the church and the church's attempt to convert pagan peoples in the early medieval period. So definitely, yeah, I think fear, suspicion, and then just the willingness to accept legends that may not actually have had very little to do with the development of the holiday really obscures people's knowledge of the true origins.
    [00:10:07] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I think the legend aspect of things is so interesting. That makes me think about, specifically, Goody Bassett. She's such a legend to her community, and they really love the legend, and they are starting to embrace her as a person, too. But I think that also, Halloween of course is such a massive thing, but the legends are such a cherished piece and some people that, it doesn't matter to them necessarily. It's not important to them to enjoy it, what's historic and what's legend. And I was chatting with my sister briefly about Halloween questions, and one of the things she said was, "what's myth and what's the history?"
    [00:10:48] Scott Culpepper: Yeah. And that is such a good question, because so much of what we think we know about the world is entangled with mythologies, and we all have our personal mythologies that we embrace. So it really is, it's a tricky thing. And sometimes the myth is enriching, the myth is empowering, the myth serves a good purpose.
    It's always important to try to, as accurately as possible, I think, get to the historical roots, but the mythology has its own impact that's worth appreciating, as well. It's interesting in the history of modern paganism and modern Wicca, modern forms of witchcraft. That's, of course, very different from the accusations that were made during the early modern period. But early on in the early 20th century, you had scholars of folklore, like Margaret Murray, who were talking about legends of ancient rituals, and they constructed this whole framework of what people might've been practicing out in the groves and out in the forest and all that. And a lot of that inspired modern forms of Wicca and contemporary witchcraft.
    The reality is probably none of that was actually going on, or at least very little of it. And the people who were accused of witchcraft, as you say often on the podcast, during the early modern period and later, these were people that had no thought of practicing real witchcraft. At the most, they may have been involved in some forms of folk magic or superstition.
    So it's interesting in terms of the folklore, the mythology, looking at that duality as well, how you've got this contemporary movement that has really made the concept of witchcraft cool in our culture now, and its associations with Halloween today make the idea something that's more culturally acceptable, but they're grabbing onto, in some cases, the very folkloric stories that led to the accusation of these people that were so violently mistreated in the past.
    [00:12:36] Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned Samhain. Can you explain what that is?
    [00:12:41] Scott Culpepper: It is. It's an ancient Celtic festival that was practiced around the time of the end of October, about the time that we now celebrate Halloween, and it marked the transition from the days of light to the time of darkness. It seems like in a variety of different ancient religious systems there was an attachment of the religious system to the cycles of agriculture, as you would expect, because most people's lives depended very much on that cycle operating successfully and that ties you to the mystical forces that foster the earth, that whatever deities you believe in, they're expressed through those natural cycles and through natural phenomena. 
    And so the idea was you're getting to the end of the cycle of growth. You're entering the time of harvest when things need to be as perfect as possible for you to have a good crop to last through the winter. And you're entering the time of darkness. Days are going to get shorter. The nights are going to get longer until, of course, finally, you get to the winter solstice, when you have the very longest night of the year. And so it's seen as a time of death and a time of pending rebirth, so to speak, as you're entering into the winter months.
    And so from what we know, Samhain is a celebration of that, an expectation of what's to come and an honoring of what happened in the past. It seems like they were probably ceremonial rituals with bonfires, maybe people bringing some of the produce that had been harvested in those fall months, and just crying out to the gods for a good winter and fruitful times to come in the future.
    And so it's very much marking that point of transition. It's one of several observances throughout the year that marks the point of transition. Having said that, that's what we know, but there's so much we don't know about exactly what happened. 
    And one of our struggles to understand a lot of the ancient Celtic religions of the British Isles is the fact that most of the information we get about them is mediated through other people, particularly the Romans. And the Romans had all kinds of reasons to exaggerate and to misrepresent what was being practiced. People like Julius Caesar, Tacitus, many other Roman historians, they'll write about the people of the British Isles and they'll record the actions of the Druids, who were said to be the priestly class among the Celtic peoples of the British Isles, and they'll talk about human sacrifice. They'll talk about the resistance of Celtic peoples to the Romans. And so you get these very enticing images of Celtic peoples worshiping out in the groves with the sacred trees and all of that, a lot of which probably is based on accurate information to some degree, but then you get a lot of things about ritual sacrifice and all that as well that we're not nearly as sure about.
    We do appear to have some archaeological evidence of people dying violently in some parts of the British Isles, and so the scholarly community is very divided about the degree to which there might have been human sacrifice, and if there was, in what way or what context it operated. Most scholars that I've seen would argue that where there were sacrifices or offerings, they typically were animals or they were the produce of the earth, the things that had been gathered during the harvest, more so than human sacrifice. But there is still an ongoing debate about there being pockets where human sacrifice was practiced. 
    Now, of course, for the Romans, this is the kind of thing that they certainly wanted to magnify and amplify. They're overcoming these, what they would view as twisted cultures, uncivilized cultures. And then with the transition of the Roman Empire to being a Christian empire, you get a lot of Christian leaders who are willing to sign on to those legends, as well, because again, they're Christianizing these people who are uncivilized, who are practicing violence against others. And so it's something that got a lot of legs. 
    We really don't know all of the specifics, but at least those are some of the things that we know about the traditions of Samhain.
    [00:16:51] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. I'm learning a lot. I knew I was going to. I love it.
    [00:16:57] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and you also mentioned that the holiday has Christian origins. Can you tell us about the origin of the word Halloween?
    [00:17:06] Scott Culpepper: Yes. It's very interesting. You've got these different observances that mark not only the transition of the seasons, but also there arises this belief that that period is a very liminal time, because you've got that transition from greater light to greater darkness. And part of that liminality is the idea that the barrier between the living and the dead becomes more permeable.
    There were Roman festivals that were practiced around May 13th that sort of venerated the dead, those who had gone before, and even posited the idea that the dead might be in contact that night. Samhain seems to have had an element of that as well, where the power of the ancestors is invoked to try to help increase yields in the future, to preserve the people over the course of the long winter months.
    So when you move into the early medieval history of the church, a lot of officials are wanting to reach out in a variety of ways to pagan peoples, people who practice the old religions, and bring them into the Christian fold. And one way they do that is by trying to adopt and then co-opt, transform practices that are very popular amongst them.
    And one of the things they'll do is to move that festival that in Roman culture happens around May 13th or May 16th to the end of October. And during that point of transition from the greater light to the greater darkness, they will set aside the observance on November the 1st of what's called All Hallows Eve. And the idea behind that initially was to celebrate the saints, because during the early medieval period, the concept of sainthood is beginning to rise in prominence in the medieval church. And so first and foremost, they set it as a day to celebrate the saints and the way the saints, through their great actions, have set aside treasury and merit for people. That whole sacramental system is developing within the Catholic church. 
    People are also having a need to acknowledge their own ancestors, as well, not just the sort of super sanctified Christians represented by the Saints, but people that are dear to them, as well. And so they'll also eventually create another day, November 2nd, which is All Souls Day. All Hallows Day is set aside to commemorate the Saints. November 2nd is set aside to commemorate others who have gone before. So October 31st becomes known as All Hallows Eve, the day before All Hallows Day. And eventually it gets transformed from All Hallows Eve or Even to Halloween, the compound word, it gets all incorporated together. 
    That cycle really becomes popular by the end of the 12th century. It goes through a period of evolution, but we see pretty good evidence that by the end of the 12th century or the 1100s, it's very well established. There were some monks that were headquartered around Cluny in France in the early 900s who began to be very taken with that whole cycle. And so the Cluniacs especially helped to popularize that so that by the end of the 1100s, it's a pretty central part and pretty widely accepted observance within the Catholic Church.
    [00:20:25] Josh Hutchinson: Is there a relationship between Halloween and the Day of the Dead?
    [00:20:32] Scott Culpepper: There is, and again it stems through the Church, because so many of the areas that commemorate the Day of the Dead, especially in Latin America, Spain, Italy. These are places that are very heavily Catholic influenced, and it's an interesting sort of joining of popular folklore and Catholic tradition.
    So definitely, I would say they stem from many of the same roots, and I think you see that, especially in the fact that some of the rites of Mardi Gras, Fat Tuesday, and Carnivale, in parts of Latin America, they're similar to things that are done on the Day of the Dead. They have a similar purpose, commemorating those who have gone before, especially in cultures that believe in purgatory, praying for those you love to advance through purgatory well.
    So yes, definitely there are affinities there, and it's just a great recipe. It's a great mix. As we were talking about earlier, Sarah said the importance of acknowledging mythology and the richness of it. We try to draw these hard barriers, these hard lines, especially in a lot of contemporary cultures, and the reality is it's all a big soup flowing together. It's the Christian traditions, it's the pagan traditions. Once all of that arrives in North and South America, it's the traditions of the Native peoples there, as well. You see like, say, the Virgin of Guadalupe. She is so much an amalgamation of Christian and Native conceptions. In many ways, she's a combination of the Virgin Mary and conceptions of an Aztec goddess forged together. It's interesting how that soup of mythology, folklore, just blends together and creates these traditions.
    [00:22:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's really intriguing, the connection there and the merge of those two.
    [00:22:21] Sarah Jack: And I really love the soup metaphor, just because, thinking of the cauldron.
    [00:22:26] Scott Culpepper: Yes. Yes.
    [00:22:27] Sarah Jack: but
    [00:22:28] Scott Culpepper: I saw a special a while ago, I think it was produced by the History Channel, where they were talking about the legend of the witch, how it began to arise in the late medieval and early modern period. And they noted the fact that these are primarily women who are being accused of witchcraft, and her tools are born of the domestic sphere. And they talk about the ordinary household broom and the ordinary household cauldron that is used for cooking and how that becomes incorporated into the legends as the tools of the witch, because those are the tools that women would have used in that culture. 
    [00:23:02] Sarah Jack: What is Hallowtide?
    [00:23:04] Scott Culpepper: Hallowtide is that whole sort of sweep of events, that whole cycle from the very end of October through the beginning of November. And it's just a time of commemorating death, rebirth, new life, and of course is very central to the background of what eventually is going to become our celebration of Halloween.
    [00:23:27] Josh Hutchinson: And when did Halloween come to America?
    [00:23:31] Scott Culpepper: It comes pretty early in the sense, and I, to kind of preface that, it would be important to talk about where it stood in the British Isles, especially, but in other parts of Europe, too, about the time that the American colonies began to come together. The Reformation had really affected people's concept in the British Isles of Halloween and how its origins played into current politics and culture. You'd had the reform movements, the Protestant Reformation. You'd had the answering Catholic reform movements within the Catholic Church.
    In the British Isles, especially, Halloween is suspect because of its Catholic associations, which is interesting. Now it's suspect because of its supposed supernatural or demonic associations. At the time, it was suspect because they rightly saw it as a very Catholic sort of observance. And of course, Protestants reject the idea of purgatory. And so the entire premise of this in many ways, and also they reject saints. So the whole premise of this cycle of days is a problem for them. 
    And so they very actively campaigned against it. Protestantism as it comes to the fore in England is somewhat puzzled about how to deal with it. Under Henry VIII, they really didn't do much about it because he was a very pragmatic sort of reformer. With Edward, his son, he tries to ban observances of Halloween, and then of course with his sister, Mary, they go the other way. Mary tries to revive it because of her Catholicism. Finally, under Elizabeth, Protestantism gains control of the conversation, and Halloween is less often commemorated. 
    But then at the very beginning of the 17th century, in 1605, you get the infamous Gunpowder Plot, where Guy Fawkes tries to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and immediately after that, the year after Guy Fawkes is executed for that crime, you get the birth of Guy Fawkes Day. And so during the 17th century, a lot of the things we associate with Halloween, they're being practiced as part of Guy Fawkes Day observances, and it's an interesting patchwork quilt where you see Guy Fawkes being magnified, the Guy Fawkes Day celebration in some parts of the British Isles. And in those pockets where Catholicism is stronger, you see still Halloween or at least those sort of pre-Halloween observances still practiced.
    And it's interesting, because a lot of the customs are the same for both. They'll have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. For instance, one thing that's practiced in the Catholic tradition at the time of Halloween is that poor people would go to the homes of people who are a little bit more affluent, and they would ask for offerings to pray for the souls of those who had gone before, those who are in purgatory. So if you're a poor person, you go to a family and say, "if you give me something, I will give prayers throughout the rest of the year for your family members who have gone on." Of course, Protestants are not open to that theology, but it becomes a way still of gathering alms. And so here you see the incipient origins of the idea of trick-or-treat, the idea of people coming for candy.
    So I go into all that as background just to say that it was in a very interesting place in the British Isles. And so when colonists first came to America, they brought that with them. If you had more Protestant immigrants, they're going to tend to commemorate Guy Fawkes Day more in that Protestant tradition. If you're a Scotch-Irish immigrant, you're from the Highlands or whatever, and you're more Catholic in your orientation, you'll probably practice some of those older versions of Halloween folklore, Halloween observances. But it's interesting because some of the customs were the same all around. Looks like it really begins to get a lot of attention from people like Longfellow and Hawthorne in the 19th century. Robert Burns had been writing about it in his Scottish poetry in the late 18th century. It's being practiced, it's part of the custom.
    Probably about the mid to late 19th century is when it really starts to get traction in American culture. I've heard some people refer to the Civil War and say that the large number of dead coming out of the Civil War may have given an impetus to this obsession with the dead, with commemorating the dead, with the idea of the veil between this world and the next, as that's also the time when spiritualism is really popular in American culture, probably in part because of all the deaths that were suffered during the Civil War and people's desire to get in touch with their loved ones. So that seems to be the moment when it becomes more popular, although it's a very different sort of celebration then than it's ultimately going to become.
    [00:28:19] Josh Hutchinson: What would it have been like around the end of the 19th century?
    [00:28:25] Scott Culpepper: Very interesting, very different, but you can see the beginnings, the contours of what we do now in it. You had this whole tradition, of course, of the gift giving, people coming and petitioning for gifts, and that was still a present thing. 
    There was this tradition of the Lords of Misrule in the early modern period, where people would also play pranks. It was a time a lot like some of the other festivals, too, like Carnival, where you had this inversion of the social structure, where people could pretend to be something else, and you would have people put on masks and basically pretend to be something other than they were. They could dress like a lord or a lady. 
    And sometimes people would engage in pranks that were quite cruel. They would damage property. There were instances in the early modern period where people challenged each other to go and to mock a witch as a way of essentially trying to control malevolent powers in the area. So some poor woman is going to be beset by people accusing her of being a witch. And a lot of those sort of customs continue, probably carried by Irish and Scottish immigrants into the late 19th century.
    You get a lot of pranks during Halloween, and it begins to get out of hand, so much so that by the time of the Great Depression, there are people who are concerned that there's too much vandalism, too much rowdiness, the holiday has gotten very out of control, and so it's during the Great Depression that retailers and other culture producers begin to work to transform the holiday. 
    They basically set out to tame the holiday, and one of the ways they're going to do that is by making it a more child focused event. They'll take some of these customs, such as coming and asking for favors to be granted, trick-or-treat, and they'll start to encourage the idea of giving candy to those who come, people coming just to seek gifts for nothing in return, as a way to pacify those who might engage in more socially unacceptable behaviors, and this actually came from a custom where people would sometimes pay folks off that they thought were going to engage in rowdy behavior. In the 1910s, 1920s, some people who want to protect their property, they would pay folks off. And so this is a way of taming that, making it more culturally acceptable.
    [00:30:57] Josh Hutchinson: And you talked about how Halloween was frowned upon by the English Reformation movement and was somewhat vilified as this Catholic practice. When did it begin to be vilified as demonic or satanic?
    [00:31:14] Scott Culpepper: Probably I would say a more modern vintage because in the 1950s and early 1960s, it was a fairly mainstream sort of holiday. American culture had done a really good job of making it a cherished family observance. And that seemed to be very widely accepted. I've seen a lot of people give tremendous credit to the Great Pumpkin episode of Charlie Brown as a way to mainstream Halloween, which I'd never thought of. I watched it every year as a kid and never thought about the fact that this was a very representative presentation of what people do on Halloween to a culture that may not have been as familiar with it as we would think.
    Also, they talked about Disney cartoons. Donald Duck had several episodes where he was featured with his nephews trick-or-treating. And so they're mainstreaming these practices through these cultural artifacts, and it seems very innocent and fairly well regarded. You had people dressing up like the Wicked Witch from Wizard of Oz, and nobody's really batting an eye.
    The hostility seems to have really arisen powerfully during the late 60s and early 70s when you've got this whole series of upheavals associated with the counterculture, a lot of older people's mistrust of young people. You've got things like Anton LaVey founding the Church of Satan and some people having concerns about what that is and how exactly it's going to influence the culture, so it seems that is the point where you have a little bit of a tipping point where you've got concerns about demonic activity. 
    I'm sure you could find evidence of, especially fundamentalist groups, even as early as the 1950s, are criticizing the idea of people dressing as witches and things like that. That's a perennial thing in American culture, but it really gets legs in the 60s and 70s, anxieties about where culture is going, things changing, some people think too fast. And then these legends that persist that are universal, that have always been there, as well. They're meeting the moment.
    Really goes into overdrive in the late 70s, early 80s, with the development of Satanic Panic. You've got Michelle Remembers, Michelle Smith, and Lawrence Pazder released this memoir where she claims to have recovered memories of satanic ritual abuse, which were later demonstrated to be completely false. And so you get this whole movement concerned about satanic covens in the hinterlands practicing satanic ritual abuse. 
    You get things like in a 1982, this Tylenol scare where you had several people that actually did die from tainted Tylenol in the Chicago area, a case which is still open. It's still never been solved, and, associated with that, you started to get accounts of Halloween candy being tampered with. There may have been one or two instances where that actually happened, but as one historian said, we don't know if it's a case of the chicken or the egg. We don't know if somebody did that at some point in one isolated case and it started something or if that was a reaction to the legends that grew. And where there has been demonstrated evidence of any tampering with Halloween candy, it was in the case of a family member doing that to children in their family because of issues they had because of problems in the marriage and just a lot of emotional issues, and so it's within that family. It's not someone setting out to do this to strangers, but the legends really grew during the eighties, and that's when you get this full-fledged belief among at least a minority of the population that Halloween is a demonic time, a time when Satan is at work and evil things can happen and evil people are trying to harm the innocents.
    [00:35:12] Sarah Jack: And is that about the time that the theories about the witches' Sabbaths became inaccurately passed and affected legends around alleged witchcraft in the modern period?
    [00:35:26] Scott Culpepper: To some degree. They've always had their cycles. They are very prominent at certain times. As you so well know, the early modern period, which was the big age of very intense witchcraft hunts in Europe, and then the cycle in America with the Connecticut witch, trials with the Salem Witch Trials, and that never absolutely goes away at American culture.
    It goes into hibernation. But as you talk about all the time, it's still there. It's always in the background informing and creating accusations and false understandings of who people are. Like we said earlier, Margaret Murray's work, the folklorist in the early 20th century, did a lot to prompt people to speculate about whether there weren't actual rituals going on on which the witchcraft accusations were based.
    For a while, people were really intensely into studying that possibility, and it was a big fixture in academia. And that's a great illustration of the fact that academia is not perfect. We struggle towards the truth. We try to understand the evidence as best we can. Sometimes that means eventually we have to let go of pet theories. And that was one of the ones that was let go of pretty much by the early seventies. Most scholars would acknowledge by then there's no real evidence of any major organized movement that would have rightly been identified as even a revival of what was perceived as ancient pagan worship. That's all mythology, but the cycle of belief in it, it just ebbs and flows.
    It's very powerful in the early 20th century, very powerful in the 60s and 70s and 80s. And what's so interesting is the interplay of different groups. This is not just the creation of fundamentalist Christians, although they certainly are going to thrive off of it and they're going to incorporate it quite a bit. But Hollywood's obsessed with that, as well. You've got Rosemary's Baby. You've got lesser known films. When Sharon Tate was killed tragically by the Manson family, one of the things that some outlets showed were stills from a picture that she was in called Eye of the Devil a few years ago, and they alleged that Sharon Tate was involved with a satanic cult. She wasn't. She had been in this movie, and they were stills from that movie. The Exorcist, which William Friedkin just died this week, that was the director of that film. The Omen. Just a lot of interesting cultural artifacts that connected with those fears and anxieties and then connected with Christian theology, as well. And some groups just really use those to highlight. 
    And so the template they've got for like the satanic groups and Rosemary's Baby, the satanic coven there in the uh, apartment building where she lives, the practices that you see on TV, they're crafted and shaped by those legends. It just grows like a snowball.
    There's a scholar named Joseph Laycock who has done some work on Dungeons and Dragons, and he's done some work on the Satanic Temple. He's got a book coming out later this fall that he wrote with someone else. I'm not sure who his coauthor is, but they are looking at how Hollywood films have shaped religious practice in American culture, and they're looking at films like The Exorcist, and they're going to look at The Conjuring series, and they're talking about how the exorcism ritual in the Catholic Church changes in many ways, and people's expectation of what it can do and what it is, changes because of The Exorcist, because of this cultural product that is created by Hollywood entrepreneurs that are just wanting to entertain people but has a very real impact over religious practice.
    And so I see those legends of witches sabbaths and all that as serving the same role. It really through those different forms of media conditions what we expect, how we see the past and the rituals of the past.
    [00:39:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's amazing how pop culture can influence people's behavior.
    [00:39:30] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, it's incredible. And both positively and negatively, because on the one hand, you've got the continuation of these terrible misconceptions about what women may have been practicing in earlier times and this idea of the witch as a malevolent figure. But then you get to the 90s, especially the late 90s, and you get this whole collection of media products that are celebrating the power of the witch.
    Even in the 60s and 70s, the notion of the witch or the liberated woman is transformed into this idea of a woman who has power, a woman who has agency. And that's probably part of the kickback against the notion of witchcraft and Satanism, as well. People who were threatened by second and third wave feminism, they often linked witchcraft, especially modern witchcraft like Wicca to women undermining the system or whatever. And in their attempts to do that, of course, they often misrepresent contemporary practitioners of Wicca by using the old tropes. They associate them with the old, legendary behaviors of witches in the past. But you get a refurbishment of the image of the witch, you get Buffy the Vampire Slayer with Willow, and you get movies like The Craft, and increasingly Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and it becomes something that's actually cool in American culture. 
    And it's a double-edged sword. You guys have talked about this really well on the podcast in the past. On the one hand, it's created this new religious tradition, and it's very empowering for many women who are part of practicing it. On the other hand, it does muddy the waters when it comes to trying to assess the harmful legacy of witchcraft trials, because you never want to accept the illusion that was cast by their persecutors that these women were guilty of anything. And there is a tendency within those revived pagan religions or neo-pagan religions to want to find connections to the past and want to say these women must have been proto-Wiccans or whatever, which, as we all know, does a disservice to their memory, because more than likely they were not guilty of anything but just being different sometimes in a society that didn't tolerate difference well.
    [00:41:50] Megan: Hello everybody, this is Megan, and welcome to Tea Time Crimes, the true crime podcast that explores women's stories under the lens of murder and mayhem. Each week my co-host Alana and I delve into the psychology of killers, the strength of survivors, and everywhere in between. 
    [00:42:07] Alana: Wait, what? I thought this was a tea podcast.
    [00:42:09] Megan: Oh yeah. And Alana is left completely in the dark for each episode. So join us every week for a fascinating case with Alana's fresh perspective and a comprehensive yet accidentally comedic tea review. 
    [00:42:21] Alana: I bring the tea, and she brings the crimes. 
    [00:42:24] Megan: Find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. 
    [00:42:27] Alana: Tea Time Crimes, out.
    [00:42:31] Josh Hutchinson: It's amazing how few references there actually are in the colonial witch trial records to actual magical practices. The appearance, at least, is that of all the people accused of witchcraft, like a very small minority were doing some kind of magic, and the rest had probably nothing to do with it at all.
    [00:42:56] Scott Culpepper: And it's amazing when you look back at those kind of practices. Those women are noted for doing that because they ultimately get involved in these witchcraft accusations. But how many other people were doing things like that? That was not as well documented. What kind of folk superstitions did people practice every day that just didn't attract the attention of the authorities, because they weren't on the margins or they didn't fit the profile?
    [00:43:20] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and I've had a question recently and some of this conversation is clarifying it for me, but it I feel like interested in understanding in the last 300 years or less, how did we as a American culture forget what those ancestors, six, seven, eight generations back, what their symbols of protective magic were that they had hidden in their home? Like, how did we become confused about images? I also think about how Hollywood or fears associated with the devil vilified specific symbols, like really boldly for generations and generations, but the actual, historical protective magic that many people had passed down, we are surprised now when we're finding them in these historical buildings and during research.
    [00:44:20] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, symbolism has changed so much through the centuries. You look at something like the swastika, which was a part of Hindu belief at one point, and then it became incorporated as a Christian symbol, and then reversed and transformed, it becomes the symbol of antisemitism and Nazi Germany, and of course, very rightfully becomes so notorious.
    The pentagram is now so tied to occult activity and Satanism in American popular cultures, but there are times it was incorporated as a Christian symbol. There've been times when it was used simply to highlight the elemental forces of nature in alchemical beliefs. So yeah, the transformation of those symbols is just incredible, and it is amazing how we lose contact with their meanings even within the span of one lifetime, much less over the course of decades or centuries. 
    [00:45:11] Sarah Jack: There's other things that have just endured for centuries, but other stuff falls away.
    [00:45:18] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, and there's a temptation to want to tie that to institutional sponsorship or protection, and that is some of it, especially Christianity. The Christian church has been a very powerful preserver and negator of cultural elements, depending on the need. But at the same time, you get these interesting symbols that survive despite that, ones that have been suppressed and others that have been pushed forward have gone by the wayside, so I guess the institutional sponsorship or protection is part of it but it's not the whole story. It's complicated.
    [00:45:53] Josh Hutchinson: I want to talk about Halloween symbolism a little. And part of that is I'm wondering about things like the origin of the jack-o-lantern and where we got the colors for Halloween. It's generally orange and black, maybe a little purple thrown in. Can you explain some of the origins of those traditions?
    [00:46:16] Scott Culpepper: Yes, definitely. There was a custom during the nights when the bonfires were lit and people were doing these commemorations for the dead of putting a light in the turnip so that people could walk along and light the path as people are progressing through the woods or whatever. And that evolves into jack-o-lanterns in the early modern period as a more durable and a bigger sort of product to carry that light in. There was a legend about a guy named Jack who was so bad that he went to hell and the Devil decided he didn't want him in hell and so he ejects him from hell and condemns him to walk the earth. And he gives him, as a small comfort, a light to light his way as he walks the earth, and supposedly that's in a pumpkin. So that was one of the folklore streams that fed into the origin of the jack-o-lantern, as well. 
    The colors, black obviously from the darkness of the night, and associations with the supernatural, maybe even the malevolent supernatural. I think the orange probably arises from the continuing central place of the jack-o-lantern in the celebrations. And so black and orange just naturally arise from the incorporation of those symbols. And then the purple, I don't know, it's not quite as easy to say. It matches well and that may be one aspect of it. And that seems to be a more contemporary addition, the purple and sometimes the green, as well. You're seeing like some green, which I assume may have something to do with the stalk of the jack o lantern. 
    Those have been incorporated more recently. It's worth noting that a lot of that different innovation has come in the last 30 or 40 years, where you have Halloween lights, which has led to a further embracing of those colors of Halloween. And part of the reason for that is because the kids that enjoyed Halloween in the 50s and on through the eighties, they have now become the adults with kids of their own. The holiday has become a very adult holiday once again. It's come full circle. It's still very kid friendly, but it's very adult focused, as well.
    It's like a billion dollar industry now every year. And a lot of that is adult costuming, not kid costuming, and the lights and all that as well. So I think part of that's commercial. The colors have become embedded, and then they've expanded on them, as well. They become a little more creative with the palette so that they can create better products.
    [00:48:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I remember as a younger adult how important Halloween was as just a festival and a time to have a party, and everybody dresses up. The adults all embrace the costuming very much. And yeah, then you just do the traditional Halloween things, but in an adult setting.
    [00:49:09] Scott Culpepper: That draw to be someone else, to be something else for just a little bit, it's pervasive in our culture now. We see it not just at Halloween, but cosplay, things like Comic Con, Renaissance festivals, and the LARPing that's associated with those now, just that pull to be able for a little bit to be somebody else, to be somebody we admire or to be the monster. I heard one historian say it's fun to put on the mask of the monster, because the idea is if you're the monster, then the monster can't hurt you.
    [00:49:41] Josh Hutchinson: A thread that's come up in this episode so far has been the subversive nature of Halloween, flipping things on their head. You talked about the power structure being inverted and people costuming to be the wealthy, but there's also that costuming to be the scary, and yeah, it seems like almost a night that you want to get a lot out of your system.
    [00:50:09] Scott Culpepper: Yes. And that's not only tied to Halloween, but that's tied to the Guy Fawkes traditions, as well. As you probably know, one of the things they have done is burn a figure in effigy, and it started out as Guy Fawkes. Now it's everybody. You're not really somebody significant in British politics if you haven't been burned in effigy on Guy Fawkes night. Almost everybody gets that treatment at some point.
    And yeah, in American cultures as well, we see masks that look like our political leaders or look like pop culture leaders, and people like to dress up like them. And sometimes they'll do it in a mocking sort of way. It's an inversion. I get to be this powerful figure for a night, either as a show of admiration or as a way to poke fun at them.
    [00:50:54] Josh Hutchinson: And now Halloween's become the the fall version of Christmas, in regards to, you talked about the lights being put up and the decorations all over the yard. It's a very Christmassy almost co-opted a holiday. I can't think of too many holidays where you go that all out to decorate.
    [00:51:17] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. It is, what is this, August 10th, the day that we're recording, and I just went to what formerly was a very well cherished store that sold products for bath and for smelling good and all of that at one point. Rest in peace. And literally, rest in peace, because now it is a Spirit Halloween, and I just went on August the 8th, so they are already open, and they are active. Like you said, it's like the Christmas season, it starts, it's a three month affair now, at least.
    [00:51:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw people celebrating Summerween this year.
    [00:51:56] Scott Culpepper: Oh, wow.
    [00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: Doing, like it was the middle of the summer, dress up and do jack-o-lanterns and things like that.
    [00:52:04] Sarah Jack: It's a jack-o-watermelon, wasn't it?
    [00:52:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, they were doing watermelons, yes.
    [00:52:10] Scott Culpepper: Oh, that's great.
    [00:52:12] Josh Hutchinson: Summerfy, or whatever.
    [00:52:14] Scott Culpepper: I interact with a lot of horror movie fans and a lot of agents as well that do, they try to represent horror novels and other works for publication. When they get to October 1st, they'll release their schedule of the movies that they're going to view that month. They've got all of their favorite Halloween films and 31 days, 31 movies. It's amazing how many people are doing that now.
    [00:52:39] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. Yeah, I've actually found myself starting earlier and earlier in the year to watch the classic horror movies and the new horror movies. It seems like by Labor Day, if not even earlier than that, people are getting geared towards Halloween.
    [00:53:01] Scott Culpepper: There's this email service that I think operates out of Substack. It's called Dracula Daily. Yeah, Dracula famously is an epistolary novel made up of letters and journal entries. This service sends you an email for every day there's a dated entry in Dracula. And so you start with Jonathan Harker's journal, which starts in early May, and they'll send you an email throughout the summer. And so it covers the whole story, Jonathan's experience, the voyage of the Demeter, and all of that. And then it picks up with Mina and other characters. And pretty much from early May until early November, they will send you an email every day there's an entry in the journal. And so you're following the story in real time throughout the summer and into the early fall.
    [00:53:47] Josh Hutchinson: Wow, that's like half the year.
    [00:53:50] Scott Culpepper: Yeah.
    [00:53:51] Sarah Jack: I love that.
    [00:53:53] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we love the dedication that we see among Halloween fans.
    [00:53:57] Scott Culpepper: Yeah. It's neat.
    [00:54:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
    [00:54:02] Sarah Jack: I've been curious, the last three years or so was so affected by the pandemic and sickness and that first fall when towns were canceling the trick or treating. And then I loved some of the creative ideas people had, shooting candy down these long pipes down their stairs and I think some of that's gonna stick around and it's so fun to, you know, have your bag at the bottom and it comes shooting down but I'm wondering, you know, are people going to have like just so many parties they can't get to all of them this year, and what other ways is it possibly going to surge larger because we're not being held back as much?
    [00:54:49] Scott Culpepper: Absolutely. I think we're seeing what a huge community gathering place it is, that it is a great moment for bringing people together and fostering community and, yeah, I agree. I think we're going to see even more of that. And it was really cool to see the creative ways that people tried to deal with it during the pandemic.
    We left candy out for people where they could drive up and just take it. And that's not quite the same, but it was neat to see the resilience of people overcoming those horrible barriers that we were dealing with.
    [00:55:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And I know that last year was a record year in Salem for October visits. They had over a million people come in the month of October, and it's a town of 40,000 or something. And yeah, I could see it getting even bigger this year. Seems like as many people as will fit in Salem will go there.
    [00:55:48] Scott Culpepper: That is Oh My Bucket List. I may be crazy because it sounds really busy, but I would love to go to Salem and Halloween at some point. That sounds like a lot of fun.
    [00:55:59] Josh Hutchinson: I was there in October probably seven years ago. And yeah, it was just this whole carnival atmosphere to the whole city.
    [00:56:10] Scott Culpepper: That's another of those strange aspects of all this. I've had some people, as I've been working on the Satanic Panic book that I've been researching, who have said, you've been really good at highlighting the dangers of this kind of thought, and the terrible consequences, but don't forget that one of the reasons why this became such a cultural phenomena is that for some people, it was fun because they enjoy being scared. And that's one of the interesting things about the whole Halloween mythos and all of the mythologies that go into it, as well. As some of it has caused great harm and there's no doubt at the same time, we love it. We love to scare ourselves, and I think sometimes even the people that act most offended in culture and do some of the terrible things, there's a part of them that kind of likes being scared. They like the notion that they're engaged in some great crusade, light versus darkness or whatever, and so you see that really in those festivities, in those celebrations. We, even those of us who know that these dark legends are not true, we still enjoy scaring ourselves with them this time of year.
    [00:57:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I really buy into the movies when I'm watching them. You can't help but get caught up in the emotions, and the fright is part of that. Why do you think people are so attracted to horror?
    [00:57:33] Scott Culpepper: At one point, I was reading this book by a lady named Judith Flanders, a scholar named Judith Flanders, called The Invention of Murder. And she was talking about why we love murder mystery so much. It seems contradictory because we're reading stories about violence being done to somebody, and why is that comforting for us to read on a rainy night? And for her, she said, there's some comfort in it because it's happening out there. It's not happening right in front of you. It's a fantasy world that you can go to where these terrible things are happening, but at the end of the day, you can come back to your normal world, your normal life.
    And I think there's something to that. I think we like the thrill of it. It's the same reason why people love roller coasters. We like to live on the edge, but in safe ways, we like to experience a little bit of that adrenaline rush, but in a way that preserves our life and limb, that's not dangerous to us.
    I've always loved ghost stories, and I'm not a believer in ghosts, but I enjoy the mystery, the thrill. It just really pulls me in. That's probably my favorite type of horror story is a good ghost story. M. R. James or Edgar Allen Poe or whoever, it just really just enjoy the fascination, the gothic settings that it just transports you to another world.
    [00:58:54] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I agree. I'm also a ghost fan, especially ghost children, if they're good or bad. I just love that element. When they're meddling in, whatever the storyline is for good or bad in one of my favorite films that may have that in it, is The Devil's Backbone, if you haven't seen that. 
    I really enjoy that one. I think another reason people enjoy reading and watching horror, it can be for that ending. Sometimes it isn't great, but sometimes you see the villain defeated or you see the person who's been running or suffering come out on top or win. And that's one of the things I like about it, but I'm a zombie fan.
    [00:59:42] Scott Culpepper: Oh yeah.
    [00:59:42] Sarah Jack: My very favorite thing to start the Halloween season with would be the original Night of the Living Dead and then follow them all through. There's someone's going to survive, maybe, there's that chase. Yeah, that's me. 
    [00:59:57] Scott Culpepper: It's worth mentioning, I just heard about this summer, the papers of George Romero are now at the University of Pittsburgh, and they're developing a whole wing of their academic library devoted to the study of horror. We're gonna see some good things hopefully come from that, the study of the horror genre.
    [01:00:14] Sarah Jack: That's great.
    [01:00:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, there seem to be more academic conferences. We see things on the artist formerly known as Twitter that, different academics posting conferences about folklore in pop culture and horror in pop culture, doing, starting to do studies around that.
    [01:00:40] Scott Culpepper: It's funny, connected to what Sarah said about the way that pop culture both reflects and shapes what's going on the ground. It's funny to me, some of the strident Catholic opposition to movies like The Exorcist and The Conjuring series, because the Catholic Church never looked better. You do have that whole conflict of light versus darkness, and nine times out of ten in those stories, a Catholic priest is the one who's coming to save the day. And so it's funny the discomfort that some Catholics feel with those films because there's never been a better sort of vehicle to make Catholic leaders look more heroic and Catholic ritual look like a symbol of light and hope.
    [01:01:23] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm thinking based on what you and Sarah have said, I'm getting, horror as it's this safe outlet where you can watch what is your worst fear, and then somebody's overcoming that fear, and that's rewarding.
    [01:01:41] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, I really love the ability of horror to make such profound social commentary. Just like a Night of the Living Dead, or Psycho, or you name it, there's so many horror films that are so much deeper than just the surface level story, that really make some profound social commentary about the human condition, or current political trends, and you really see that reflected when you go watch some of these films and then you put 'em in their historical context or books or whatever. I really appreciate that fact that you create these fantasy worlds where you do have these horrors that people are facing and they end up saying something about real life as well, that whole concept that J R R Tolkien talked about of escaping to reality, escaping to a fantasy that teaches you something about real life.
    [01:02:32] Josh Hutchinson: You've mentioned a number of books during this conversation. Do you have any others that you recommend our listeners read to learn more about Halloween?
    [01:02:43] Scott Culpepper: I think there's some really great ones out there. One of the best. It's published by Oxford Press, and it's one that I actually looked at a little bit for our conversation. It's by Nicholas Rogers, and it's called Halloween: From Pagan Observance to Party Night, which is a fantastic title, and it's an Oxford title, so those are usually very high quality scholarship. And there are a lot of others that you can find, as well, that are written at a more popular level, but get at the story behind the story, as well.
    [01:03:17] Josh Hutchinson: I've been reading that book, and it's very fascinating insights into the origins of Halloween and how we got all the traditions. 
    [01:03:27] Scott Culpepper: Someone else who's really good at almost all the holidays is a scholar named Stephen Nissenbaum, and he's written extensively on Christmas, on Halloween, and he's written some of Witch Trials as well, so the audience would really enjoy his work.
    [01:03:43] Sarah Jack: That's a really good suggestion. And when you start to use the lens that we're using today to look at Halloween, just across all the types of observances and seeing the influences and the individuals that were influencing and what was influencing them, that's so important, and that carries over to looking at the witch trials and the documents, how those were formed, what was informing those people. It's all really important to start dissecting and looking, what was shifting through these times and impacting the beliefs and the fears and.
    [01:04:25] Scott Culpepper: It really is a neat form of detective work. I mean, you're sort of like a historical detective reading all these different layers of tradition and folklore, historical record, and then trying to discern the reality of what was happening and not just the reality of what actually transpired, but the reality of what people thought about what was transpiring as well and how that affected their actions.
    And I think Thou Shalt Not Suffer is a great vehicle for Thank you. Putting people in contact with those primary and secondary sources, as historians call them, like giving them the chance to look for themselves. And one of the great things about the world that we're in right now is that so much of it is being digitized. So it is really awesome to go to an archive, there's nothing quite like it, and actually touch a document that historical figures touch. So I would definitely recommend that if anybody ever has the opportunity, but also if you can't do that, so much of it is at our fingertips, and even more so every day. So it's an exciting time to be interested in any form of historical study. And in this field especially, because it's just taking off right now, the study of the past of witch trials and coming to grips with that history. It's a really good time to explore the facets of that history.
    [01:05:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we had the opportunity this last spring in May to go to Connecticut to what was known as the Connecticut Historical Society at the time, I think it's now the Connecticut Museum of Culture and History but we were able to see Reverend Samuel Parris sermon book the original book with his handwriting in it, and that was so amazing, and we saw a couple other documents from Connecticut Witch Trials, the originals, and yeah, there's nothing like that experience.
    [01:06:19] Scott Culpepper: That tactile contact with the past is just incredible. That I touch something that these people touch that you've been reading about. Just, yes, it's just a great experience. I'm glad you had a chance to do that.
    [01:06:33] Josh Hutchinson: It was so exciting. Just, I was stunned when I saw what they had out displayed for us because we met, it was basically a delegation of us and Dr. Leo Igwe went there to get some information on the Connecticut Witch Trials. And the people there had put all these things out on display just for us. And it was, when I saw Samuel Parris's notebook and they told me what it was, I about fainted.
    [01:07:04] Scott Culpepper: Wow. That's amazing.
    [01:07:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it was so cool, but I like you talked about how these things are also available digitally so anybody from anywhere can access, say the records from the Salem Witch Trials. There's a lot from Connecticut Witch Trials online also. So I encourage readers definitely read the primary sources, and if you want to know how to find a primary source, just get in contact with us and we'll let you know.
    [01:07:37] Scott Culpepper: That's great.
    [01:07:39] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Next, I'd like to talk to you about what you're working on right now and what's next for Scott Culpepper, beginning with what are some of the courses that you're teaching this year?
    [01:07:55] Scott Culpepper: I teach a wide variety, because my institution's a fairly small college, so you do a lot across the spectrum, but this fall, I'm teaching our basic introductory civilization course, and then I'm teaching a course on Latin America. Next spring, I'm teaching the second part of Civilization, and I'm teaching a course that used to be called Renaissance and Reformation, but I got my hands on it, and I've changed the title to Witch Hunts, Wars, and Reformations, and so that one will be very heavy on witch trials. We'll do a witch trial simulation and be looking into that history, so I'll be teaching that one.
    And another one that is really going to be fun. I've done it one time before, but we're going to make some tweaks to it. It's like an immersive simulation course where we do three historical simulations. There's a consortium, a group of people that works out of Columbia University and Barnard College in New York called Reacting to the Past. And they create these large scale historical simulations that play out over the course of about three weeks. And I'm going to do that class. I haven't decided what three simulations we're going to do. I know one of them is going to be India on the eve of independence in the 1940s. Last time we did something on the Wanli emperor succession crisis in China and something on Rwanda during the period of the genocide. So that was a really good class for just immersing people in the history. We may do it a little bit different. It may not be just international topics. So I'm looking forward to that one as well. That's what I'm going to do over the course of the next year, as far as teaching.
    [01:09:29] Sarah Jack: That's exciting, powerful stuff.
    [01:09:32] Scott Culpepper: It's a lot of fun. I enjoy exploring it, and students are great. They really get engaged with it. As far as writing and research goes, I'm still working on the Satanic Panic book, and I am talking with and working with an editor at a publisher. I shouldn't announce yet who it is, because everything hasn't been signed and sealed yet, but hopefully I'll know something for certain about that soon. And he has been really good to help with that and to open new avenues of exploration. So I'm pretty excited about that. 
    And I'm interviewing a lot of people connected to that, both historians and scholars of religion who have worked on the topic before, and also people who are actually involved in it. That's really getting underway. I'm doing more of those in connection with the work. 
    So at some point, I'd like to take those and package those in either a podcast form or some other outlet. Podcast is what I'm thinking. Maybe do some of these interviews and cut them and put them out there for public consumption. Because like we were saying earlier, so much has already been done that people are not aware of. So it would be great to put some of this information in a forum that was accessible to people if they have an interest in exploring this stuff, that's something I'm thinking about as well. 
    [01:10:47] Josh Hutchinson: That sounds like a really interesting and informative program.
    [01:10:53] Sarah Jack: I can hear from what you're saying how you had a vision of what you wanted to be able to review, research and give, and you're seeing how there's these other layers and bigger ways to get it out there. That's exciting. Absolutely
    [01:11:09] Scott Culpepper: It's opened up a lot of worlds that I didn't even know were there. And one thing I want to try to do, I've been trying to be more conscious of this as I've been working the last month or so, is to document the process as well. Like you were saying, it's really fun, and it's really interesting how this comes together, and I don't know that a lot of people really know much about that process from conception to your finished idea. You just see these books spring forth fully grown. So one thing I'd like to do as part of the road to publishing this is release videos or audio connected with the process and maybe write some blog articles as well about how I did this and what I thought about it in the beginning and then, like you were saying, the ways in which that was reshaped and changed as I got deeper into the research. So hopefully it can do that. I've started putting aside those tidbits so that anybody who's interested can see the ingredients that went into the mix, as well.
    [01:12:07] Sarah Jack: It'll really maximize the outcome and the influence of the work. That's great.
    [01:12:12] Scott Culpepper: Hopefully so, definitely.
    [01:12:15] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, definitely be listening and watching whenever you put anything online, especially if you're interviewing people that have been involved in the Satanic Panic, that just really, intrigues me.
    [01:12:30] Scott Culpepper: Yeah, the people that you can get to talk have got really interesting stories to share. And there are some people you have to let it go because they will never speak, but it's surprising who will. And it's fun to get some of those insights.
    [01:12:45] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:12:49] Sarah Jack: Join us next week if you dare.
    [01:12:52] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:12:55] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:12:58] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and trick-or-treaters about the show.
    [01:13:04] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end with Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:13:09] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
    
  • Owen Davies on Grimoires, Magic, and Witch Hunts

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Listen in Your Favorite App

    Listen and subscribe wherever you enjoy podcasts:

    Show Notes

    Esteemed Historian, Folklorist and Author Owen Davies talks about his upcoming new book release: Art of the Grimoire: An Illustrated History of Magic Books and Spells available Oct, 10th. Every culture and every period has magic. Learn about the global history of written magic and how it has evolved in conjunction with religion and science. This episode continues the message and questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?

    Links

    Owen Davies, Professor at University of Hertfordshire

    Buy Art of the Grimoire: An Illustrated History of Magic Books and Spells by Owen Davies

    Buy America Bewitched Book by Owen Davies

    Join One of Our Projects

    Support Us! Buy Book Titles Mentioned in this Episode from our Book Shop

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Discord

    Transcript

    
    
  • Omens with The Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Listen in Your Favorite App

    Listen and subscribe wherever you enjoy podcasts:

    Show Notes

    Happy Halloween has begun on our show. Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast hosts The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery podcast in a conversation around death and omens. Guest podcasters Jennie Johnson and Dianne Hartshorn share their research around burial rituals and animal signs. We discuss how omens and signs are interpreted in different ways by different cultures. Why is death feared by some and celebrated by others? Join us for our first haunted talk of the 2023 spooky season.

    The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Fact Sheet for Connecticut Witch Trial History

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:06] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:11] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:13] Josh Hutchinson: How's your fall going, Sarah Jack?
    [00:00:15] Sarah Jack: I am so excited it's here.
    [00:00:17] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, you ready for Halloween?
    [00:00:20] Sarah Jack: Yes. 
    [00:00:21] Josh Hutchinson: I'm still working on putting my costume together. How are you doing in that department?
    [00:00:28] Sarah Jack: I have all of it. I'm going all out for Sally this year.
    [00:00:33] Josh Hutchinson: Sally?
    [00:00:34] Sarah Jack: The nightmare before Christmas. She's not a witch, but she does have a bad vision, and she needs to warn Jack. So it actually goes with this episode, because she's sees this vision of Christmas and then it goes up in flames.
    What do you have to get together for your Halloween costume?
    [00:00:59] Josh Hutchinson: I decided this year I'm going to go as both a pirate and a witch and be a pirate witch. So I need a pirate ensemble and a witch hat and a cape and like a wand and a cutlass and a zombie parrot.
    [00:01:19] Sarah Jack: That's awesome.
    [00:01:21] Josh Hutchinson: So now I'm actually thinking of maybe becoming a space witch.
    [00:01:26] Sarah Jack: Oh, 
    [00:01:27] Josh Hutchinson: honor of Starfield. I definitely want to do something witchy this year. And speaking of Halloween, we're so happy to speak with Diane Hartshorn and Jennie Johnson from the Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast.
    [00:01:43] Sarah Jack: I had followed their podcast for a year before I had any idea that I could possibly be podcasting myself. So they're one of the first podcasts that I followed on social media.
    [00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: That's great. We'll be talking with them about omens, signs, portents.
    [00:02:04] Sarah Jack: Welcome Dianne and Jennie, co-hosts of the Ordinary, Extraordinary Cemetery, a podcast that explores old cemeteries and the stories of the people buried in them. It's history. It's spooky. And they share great photographs and extra history on their wonderful social media. Be sure to find them today. We're so happy to have you guys visiting with us today. I'd love to hear more about you.
    [00:02:30] Dianne Hartshorn: I'm Dianne Hartshorne, and it, we've been doing this for two, two, three years on the 8th of October, and how we got together was by sheer accident. Jennie and I were both in this Facebook group in regards to a tombstone restoration class that was going to be taking place up in Leadville, Colorado, and we just started chatting back and forth, but the class got canceled, and this was right at Covid October of 2020, and she just reached out to me and said, "Hey, would you like to do this with me?"
    And I'm like, "oh my gosh, I have never done this before. I don't know." So I asked another friend, I go, "what do you think?" 
    And she's, "if it doesn't work, you can always not do it." 
    I'm like, "oh, okay."
    And then, so I don't wanna sound cliche, but the rest has been history.
    [00:03:25] Jennie Johnson: That's okay. She sounds cliche. I know. I completely threw her off when I had asked her to do our podcast with us, because I didn't even know what I was doing when I first said, "let's do a podcast." So I just wanted to be able to put out more information about cemeteries. I love digging up the stories of the people that are buried in them, especially people that aren't famous. There's a lot of like TikTokers and Instagrammers and stuff that do famous graves, and they talk about who those people are. And so that's easy to find, but there wasn't really anything out there for the stories about just the everyday people, but they had an impact on their communities or their families.
    And that's what started our podcast. I had been doing a bunch of research about the cemeteries up near Central City in Colorado, and I, so I had all this research that I had done, and I didn't know what to do with it, and I didn't want to write a book about it. So I said, "let's just do a podcast." And because Dianne has a lot more preservation information than I had at the time, and she'd been doing it for a long time, I wanted her to join me so she could talk more on that part of the subject on how we do the preservation and taking care of headstones. And because I was just starting to learn that at the time, so I needed somebody that had more experience with that. And that was Dianne. So that's how we got together and started the Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery Podcast.
    [00:04:49] Dianne Hartshorn: Yes.
    [00:04:50] Jennie Johnson: And yeah, we're super excited.
    [00:04:52] Sarah Jack: I'm so glad that all came together. You're filling a really important need.
    [00:04:57] Jennie Johnson: Yes, it and interestingly, like Dianne said, we started our podcast in 2020. It launched in October, and there was one other podcast out at the time that was doing cemeteries, and that was Tomb With a View podcast, but Liz has a different approach generally to how she covers cemeteries. She does a lot more with the architecture, stone carvers, not quite as much about the stories like we do. So we've actually, both podcasts have covered some of the same cemeteries, but from different viewpoints. So that's been really interesting.
    But, with the exception of that podcast, there weren't any others out there about cemeteries that weren't paranormal related. And I was looking for something that wasn't par I mean, I love a good ghost story, don't get me wrong. And I watch ghost hunters and I watch kindred spirits and all of that, but I wanted something that had more of the history and the real stories about the real people. And since it didn't exist, I decided I should create it. So that's how we got into the whole world of podcasting, creating what wasn't there, which I think you guys have done very well with your podcast, too. There's definitely podcasts where they've done episodes on witchcraft here and there, or they've talked about the same, like we've talked about the Salem Witch Trials, but like the fact that you guys really delve into so many of the stories about witches and all of that is fascinating to me. And you created what wasn't there.
    [00:06:20] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there's definitely no other show like it in the States. There is Witches of Scotland. That's the only one that's really, like our format kind of that does witch hunts specifically.
    [00:06:39] Jennie Johnson: And you've covered some stories that are lesser known, too, for the witch. I mean, you've covered some more well known ones, as well, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of witch stories out there and witch hunting that happened that people don't always realize was part of history, and you guys have covered some of those really brilliantly, which is great because again, it's something people want to know more. I think there's a lot of people that want to know more about it but don't know where to find that information. And you guys have done an excellent job presenting that information.
    [00:07:10] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. There was even more out there available for us to share than I had any comprehension of. So I'm so glad, though, that we've created this catalog of experts and researchers, and if someone does want more information, there's just so much. They probably don't even know where to start at this point, 'cause we have so many. But yeah, I'm really glad that all the information has come together and new stuff comes to us every week. I'm sure you guys experienced that as well.
    [00:07:41] Jennie Johnson: Oh yeah.
    [00:07:41] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah. 
    [00:07:41] Jennie Johnson: Dianne has said it time and again, we've learned so much from what we thought we knew when we started, to the things that we've learned, especially from our guests and things.
    [00:07:50] Dianne Hartshorn: And just.
    [00:07:51] Jennie Johnson: Blows our mind.
    [00:07:52] Dianne Hartshorn: In American history, there are so many stories that when we first started this, it was like, I didn't learn this in school. I didn't learn this in school. And it's and it seems and Jennie's really good at finding those stories that we basically weren't taught in school. So we, they're, they're fascinating. It's so much better than what we have been taught. And that's why we love sharing that, because there is just so much more out there that we need to know.
    [00:08:21] Jennie Johnson: They're nuggets, they're like little gold nuggets that we find and then we can expand on those and, hopefully, our listeners have learned some things, too, but I know, and I know, and I've seen it even on stuff that we post on our social media, because I will post stuff there that doesn't make it into our podcast episodes, but just other interesting tidbits about stuff, and I've had plenty of people comment, "oh my gosh, I never even knew this, didn't know this was there, or I've been to that cemetery, but had no idea that this person was buried there." So that's always a lot of fun to see the impact that what we're sharing with everybody has on them.
    [00:08:59] Josh Hutchinson: I like that you emphasize the real stories of real people. It's important for people to be remembered for who they really were.
    [00:09:10] Jennie Johnson: Yes, and it gives us, I think sometimes. And again, this was where the paranormal ones get away from it. And in those podcasters and sometimes shows and stuff, you forget in a cemetery when they're trying to make it creepy and scary and all that, you forget that those people that are buried there lived like lived real lives and they had emotions and they had children and they had jobs and they had good things happen to them and bad things happen to them.
    And I think people forget that sometimes when they just want to tell a good ghost story and that you lose sight of, what I say, the humanity of it, but these were all real people and I, if we can find their stories and remember them, I think that makes it so much better. And you can still have the ghost story there, too. That's fine, but just put the humanity back in these cemeteries. And when people go to visit, then hopefully that makes them stop and think when they're looking at particular graves about who that person might have been when they were alive and what they might've been doing in their lives. That and certain things that parallel our modern lives, too. So I like having that comparison. 
    So today we brought for you guys, and I was so excited when you reached out about this. So the reason we get to be on your show today is because you had reached out about a post I had made a while back that had a crow in the cemetery, and I had quoted the movie The Crow about crows leading souls to heaven or something. I don't even remember the exact, I should know the exact quote, I've seen that movie a million times, but that's how we got here today.
    So we did some more digging into death omens, and this was actually good timing for us, because we had talked about doing something similar on our own podcast with this for October, because we do get a little spookier in October than we do the rest of the year.
    But I went into digging up some omens and some taboos that are somewhat connected to cemeteries, more often connected to death itself. But death means different things around the world. Every culture has its own connection with death, and some cultures actually celebrate it, others fear it.
    Like, it's interesting when you start to dig into death and burial rites and those kinds of traditions, how different cultures treat death. And then the omens that have come about, which a lot of them, or at least the ones that we looked at for today with you guys, we were able to connect to, in a lot of cases, witchcraft and witches, and that's how certain stories have happened. And then you end up with the big witch trials, especially the further back in history you go. 
    But so we thought we'd start out by defining an omen. I actually went and looked up the actual definition of omen and the actual definition of taboo. So an omen is an event regarded as a portent of good or evil, and it has prophetic significance. So that's an omen. 
    And then a taboo is a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing. Like I said, the one that had interested you was the one about crows, and crows and ravens together, in different cultures, they almost cross over as far as what they signify, but crows often in a lot of cultures can mean illness or death is coming if you spot so many of them together, they're in a certain configuration or whatever, but there are other cultures that think of crows as guiding souls to heaven, like the souls can, or whatever heavenly body. And with ravens specifically, so there's Norse tradition that ravens delivered messages to Odin between the dead and the living. So they And Odin was their biggest god out of all their gods, and so ravens had that significance, but you see it in other things, but the other reason crows and ravens and even vultures get a bad rap, especially when you see them in cemeteries, is because they are scavengers, that's how they eat, so they're attracted to any place where there's going to be dead bodies, because that's going to feed them, and I think a lot of their like scariness of people attached to it is because you've seen them on battlefields after in the past, especially you have all the dead from the battles and those birds come almost immediately and start helping themselves. And cemeteries, I'm sure they can smell things that, even though the bodies are generally buried or in the crypts or whatever, they can still smell death. So they tend to hang out in those places. So they get a bad rap, I think. Unfortunately.
    [00:13:53] Dianne Hartshorn: And do you think through literature and the gothic romance era that, with our boy Edgar, that he that sort of just warped maybe more of the I don't want to say maybe more the spiritual connection with the crow and then that crow became that omen, that spooky creature that is bad and instead of good. And because in some of the Native American stuff, a crow is not looked upon as evil or foreboding. 
    [00:14:24] Jennie Johnson: Yeah. Especially Native American cultures, crows are generally a kind of a revered animal. It's more of a, from like an English and Irish.
    So this day and age with people having so much access to the internet and being able to look things up, I think this is where cultures cross sometimes. You get omens that seem really scary or significant from one culture that crosses over to another culture. And I think people will look at that and go, "Oh, that's really interesting." So that's what started all this was the crows.
    [00:14:56] Dianne Hartshorn: Then you get our precious little black cats in there as well, too, as being omens. And Jennie and I personally know that black cats are freaking awesome. And I think the other thing with death omens and that is learning and respecting and appreciating different cultures and their death and burial practices, because Jennie mentioned here, the Navajos and the Native Americans, they would have their own very specific rituals involved with, death and that. And then since, unfortunately, that some of their practices may have been looked upon as being pagan or primitive, it wasn't really respected by the people who came to settle this land and actually they would take the body and bury it away from living areas. And in a way we followed that, where cemeteries started moving from the churchyard out away from the community. Next, I think a lot of that had to do with, that was valuable land. 
    And I think a lot of it is when we learned a lot through, like, archaeology and all that with burial practices, but then I think when people do that, they have taken away the sacredness when they discover things and then they don't quite understand maybe what was left there that may be looked at as being very primitive, where from the Native American's perspective, it might've been something very, very sacred at now lost because we didn't understand it. 
    [00:16:41] Sarah Jack: Such a devastating point because you mentioned, you know, the lens of the settler, the European settlers, here was we don't understand their culture and their practices, so it's witchcraft or it's evil. Their practices were very sacred to them. It's so unfortunate when cultures don't recognize what is sacred to other cultures just because of fear. 
    [00:17:05] Jennie Johnson: And you have to think, too, so going back like to the Navajos specifically, they actually, and I think it's still true today for, especially for those who've really been able to go back to practicing their own traditions again. They have a fear of death, because they, and it's more, it has to do with like your spirit or your soul getting trapped here in, on earth, rather than moving on to where it's supposed, wherever it's supposed to go afterwards.
    And so a lot of their burial practices have to do with making sure that soul gets contained or gets sent into the right place, because you don't want that, because if the soul gets trapped, it's not going to be the kind, loving, respectful person that it was in life. It becomes something very twisted and dark.
    And so you don't want that trapped soul here. So they, one of the things they do that I know the European settlers found very odd and weird, when somebody died, if they died inside their hogan, which is their traditional sort of house, if they died with inside the hogan, they would actually burn the hogans afterwards. Nobody else was allowed to move into them or live in them, because again, you could be trapped in there with an angry spirit that didn't get to move on to where it was supposed to go. So that's one of those kind of practices. And there were other tribes that did that. 
    The Apache did that, as well. If you had somebody who died inside of a place, you got rid of the place, you didn't keep it, you didn't move on and use it again for somebody else, which again, from the European standpoint, when they came, that just was like mind blowing to those people because you would inherit things, and you would move on, and you would move into those places, but that's not how that those cultures thought of that. It became very sacred to help that spirit not be trapped and to move on and go where it was supposed to go, so I find that interesting. 
    But at the same time, there's other cultures. So there are the Malagasy peoples, they are from Madagascar. The Malagasy is like the big term for all these tribes that are in the Madagascar region, and they have African and Asian heritage mixed together. That's what the Malagasy are, because of where they're located, but they have a practice called, and I'm hoping I don't butcher this too much, because it's a kind of a tricky word, but it's Famadihana and it's, which translates roughly into the turning of the bones.
    Every five to seven years, they have this practice, where they open up their tombs or their vaults, and they actually remove their deceased ancestors, they redress them in fresh burial garbs, and they have them out, and they eat and drink and dance and have this whole ceremony, because they're honoring their ancestors, and then they put them back inside their tomb, but they put them upside down in their fresh garbs. They put them back upside down, so like on their heads quite literally, because it closes the cycle of life and death when they do that, and then they close it all up for another five to seven years, and then they'll do it all over again. 
    But they have a very strong belief that they're the deceased ancestors are that connection, those physical bodies are sort of their connection between the earthly realm and the spiritual realm. And they have a lot of practices that border on Christianity and other practices, because they took up with some Christianity. So they have certain beliefs that they follow a very Christian thing. So they do believe in like God and stuff, but then some other practices can go beyond that. And so this is one of those things where I know people from other cultures would be like, "why are you dancing with your dead relatives?" But it's because they're intervening on their behalf. Those dead relatives are intervening with God on the behalf of the living, and so they have a very close connection with death, and they don't view it quite so fearfully or negatively as like other cultures do.
    So it's similar to what they do, you know, for Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead celebrations that they have in parts of Mexico and parts of South America where they're honoring their ancestors and the love and the life that they had. It's that same sort of celebration. So again, depending on where you're at in the world, the connections to death are very different. But I think it's really cool. 
    [00:21:28] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah, because what was, you know, Halloween, became All Souls Day. All Saints Day, we have lost, I think we've lost a lot of that, because I believe All Saints Day and All Souls Day, or I may be saying it backwards is more of a Catholic ritual belief. So when trying to get away from that, then they made that stuff evil, and sort of, I don't wanna say they warped Halloween because, and then I think here in the States, especially with death and mourning, we want to forget it and get over it so, so quickly 'cause and not even put out there that we are in mourning or this you know, whatever around that. Because I have a friend who's, who grew up in the Philippines, and when her mother died, they don't bury in big, elaborate, expensive caskets and that, and her mom was placed in a shroud into a crypt. I mean, she has since moved her mom to another cemetery and that could be part of the reason, but what was interesting was when she was flying back home, and I think, and I didn't know how this came about or how she got her or anything, um, she had mentioned to the stewardess or somebody, it could even have been before that she was, you know, returning home after her mom's death, and somehow she ended up being given a black pin that she could pin to her blouse. 
    So basically it was like you know, going back into the Victorian age of how it was almost an elaborate display of mourning. I don't want to say they turned it into a trend, but you know, it was just like everybody, it was very, I don't know, I don't want to say romantic, but they sometimes took things to the extreme, where I mean, my friend was able to wear that pin home, and they signified that she was in mourning,, and I think she was supposed to wear it for 40 days and she signified that she was in mourning so that way she didn't, people honored that and I think with some of these omens and that they have been warped because either we don't understand them, or we don't, we try to push death so far away that we forget it's basically, unfortunately, an everyday part of life.
    [00:23:57] Jennie Johnson: Yeah, there's, especially in Western cultures like ours, death is more feared than it is revered. And that's a little scary to people. In creating some of these omens, when it relates to things that people see, to the animals that are around, to all of those things they, I think it tries to help people maybe process death a little bit differently and either to use it as a warning to be like, "hey, stay away from the cemetery, stay away from sick people, stay at whatever, because you're going to die, this could be bad." 
    And then again, a lot of things go back to our fear of witches and witchcraft, especially European cultures, because in Europe, witches were horrible for centuries. Like we were after them for forever. And so there's all these things that relate back. And now I think in a more modern age, I think a lot of people look at these things, and they laugh it off, and it's not as scary or upsetting anymore, but for a long time, that was the warning of if you see this, if you see the crows and the ravens hanging out in the cemetery, you're going to be the next one to die type thing. And there's a lot of those kinds of omens, especially related to animals, which I find interesting. The birds, owls are another one that a lot of cultures are afraid of. It's interesting because with owls, a lot of the fear around those for the omens comes from a lot of South American cultures. If you hear it, if you're hearing the owls hoot, that could mean death within your household immediately. Like if an owl comes and sits on your rooftop and starts hooting, that's an omen of death, like, headed in your direction, which I find so fascinating, because I love when the owls come and hoot.
    But also, you know, black cats, if they cross your path, you're supposed to die.
    And well, I would be dead so many times over at this point, because I've had black cats forever in my house. And, uh, that omen has never come true for me, so.
    [00:25:59] Dianne Hartshorn: No, they're the best cats. I'm sorry. 
    [00:26:02] Sarah Jack: One of the things that popped into my mind is how the finality of death is, like, immediate for a lot of the Western culture here in America, and we're, like, trying to shut the door and move on, mourn privately. We're all still trying to figure out the stages of grief and where we're at, you know. We don't have these practices that walk us through those, and then what I'm learning from you is that a lot of these cultures, it's just like a new phase of the relationship, and they continue their connection to them, even in death. They're not shutting that door.
    [00:26:36] Jennie Johnson: There's a lot of the cultures, life and death are very intricately connected, and most cultures have some sort of a belief in some kind of afterlife. And it's, and even Christianity, the goal is when you die, you're going to go to heaven or you'll go to hell or where there's somewhere you're going to go and continue on, but a lot of cultures have that sort of afterlife belief or a reincarnation belief is another one that they have. So even if your physical body is no longer being useful, you still have a soul or spirit that's going to go somewhere. And I think for most cultures, the beliefs that they built around that was to help people through the grieving process and not to shut it out and say, "yes, you can be sad that physically this person no longer sits next to you at the dinner table, but we know they've continued on into this other world, and they're doing the things in this other world that they did in life."
    You go back to the ancient Egyptian cultures and the way they buried their dead with all the grave goods and things they were going to need to continue living their life in the afterworld. They gave them their food and their dishes and their clothing and all those things in the thought that you're going to need it in the next life, and so I do think we as Western society became more fearful of death and a lot of that goes back to certain things, too, like all the different plagues that ran through Europe and the way people died horrible, tragic deaths. The black plague was a nasty disease and it was very scary to watch people die. And it would happen so fast. Somebody would get sick and be gone within a day or two, and it was very terrifying to watch people die like that. And so I think a lot of our traditions in Western culture then stem from things like that. Like we've become fearful. 
    And then there came a time where all of a sudden we had to be very stoic and serious about death. And even still, as you mentioned, people are uncomfortable with the idea of death. And when somebody dies for somebody else, like people don't necessarily know what to say, feel like they should say something or what to do, because there's not necessarily something you can say or do to make somebody feel better about a loss of a loved one. There's not always words there, or there's very empty words. So then people get uncomfortable, then they don't want to be around the person who's just lost somebody because they don't know how to act or what to say. And then the person who's actively grieving then goes into this, "oh, I have to just put it behind me, and I have to move on, because nobody's going to understand this."
    And again, by creating omens or taboos about death, then in our brains, it gets stuck there that this is, this is wrong and we can't think like this. And we have to just move on, even though we know logically grief can last a very long time. It can take years to get over losing somebody, and there shouldn't be a time limit for how long somebody grieves. You should just be allowed to be sad and still live your life. 
    But if you can make a connection with your deceased loved ones in some way, I think that's very helpful to a lot of people. And like you said, there's a lot of cultures, they, death and life are interconnected and you have to have one to have the other. 
    So yeah, I was having fun researching some of the other ones. So some of the other omens that we came about that have to do with animals, I thought this one was interesting cause I'd never heard of it, but white horses, especially in Europe, this was especially European, but if two white horses are pulling a hearse, hearses when horses still used to pull hearses, a death will occur in the town within a month. Also, if you saw a white horse at night, that could be an omen of death coming for you. 
    [00:30:24] Dianne Hartshorn: I wonder if it's from revelations, because it talks about the white horse.
    [00:30:30] Jennie Johnson: Oh, it could be. That's true. 
    Snakes are another one that people have a lot of weirdness around when it comes to, because snakes creep people out anyway.
    [00:30:40] Dianne Hartshorn: Yeah, they don't have to have omens, they're just creepy. 
    [00:30:42] Jennie Johnson: They're just creepy, but a lot of that relates back biblically, though, since Lucifer is said to present himself as a snake, and then, of course, that got tight, so then snakes can bring death and sickness and other curses, and they can be used by witches to do their bidding and be horrible and nasty, so snakes are another one, and bats were the other. Bats I thought were interesting, and of course there's the association with bats because of vampires and Bram Stoker himself is the One who really was like, our vampires turn into bats. That's how they fly around and get around without being noticed. But they've been in other cultures where vampires aren't necessarily a part of their culture. Bats are still considered to be bad luck, especially if you see them flying around in the daylight. Because they're nocturnal creatures. So if you're seeing them during the day, that, oftentimes it means somebody's going to die right away in those kinds of cultures. It's more likely the bat has rabies at this point, or some other illness that bats can get. 
    [00:31:46] Sarah Jack: Did you, in your research, did you see any ways that people believe that they can get out of a bad omen? 
    [00:31:54] Jennie Johnson: You know what? It's weird, because I was trying to look that up, and I wasn't finding a lot on that. There are a few cultures that do have you can cast a counterspell and things like that, or you go visit your shaman or your witch doctor, and they can be the ones to cure you of that omen.
    In those cases, you have to have some form of payment, though, oftentimes, or something for trade, again, depending on the culture and where you're at. But that's, those were the only ways I was coming up with that could counteract these bad omens. Otherwise, most of them are like, yep, this is going to happen, so prepare yourself. Be prepared. You're dying, or somebody is dying, and I'm sure a lot of that also stems back, you could have seen a bat flying around during the day 300 years ago. And somebody probably died within that week, because people just died more often and at younger ages, because healthcare wasn't as good, so they started making those connections like, "oh my gosh, I saw a bat on Monday and now my grandma's dead on Tuesday, because that bat was flying around in the daytime." But yes, there are a few cultures where there are ways to fix it, but you usually have to have some form of payment or something to get that fixed. 
    [00:33:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I was really curious about that, because we've talked about countermagic before and protective magic, how people use amulets and rituals or put things around the house to ward off this and that. But I guess it depends on how you interpret the origin of an omen. I was thinking if an omen is a sign from the gods or God, then you probably can't do a whole lot to counteract God's will through a prayer or something, but maybe for in certain cultures, where you sacrifice to appease a God, maybe that's a way to get out of an omen.
    [00:33:50] Jennie Johnson: And that does come up in a few of them. The other thing that you'll find more often is what you've mentioned is protective charms. And so there's a lot of charms that people have come up with over the centuries, things to wear, foods to eat, herbs and stuff that you put around your home or across your threshold, using salt is a big one that goes back to a lot of things. Salt protects you from witches and bad spirits and demons. And salt is highly functional for that kind of stuff, in addition to making your food taste better. So there's a lot more of the protective type of charms to prevent things, bad things from happening if you happen to come across one of these animals or whatever.
    But yeah, it's more of the protective thing rather than the once it's happened. Like you said, if it's the god's will, whether it's the Christian God or any other god, then that's, you just have to prepare yourself and be ready to do what, whatever that god was wanting at that point. They make themselves well known for that.
    [00:34:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we were reading about omens and portents in colonial New England. In Puritan society, everything basically was a sign of God's favor or displeasure, and if God was angry with you, you're supposed to take your medicine, and, uh, correct whatever you were doing.
    [00:35:17] Jennie Johnson: And with the Puritan belief in predestination, where God has already decided whether you're going to heaven or hell, you don't know that, God knows that. But yeah, it made it very hard to break away sometimes from the idea of certain things. If you were going to go to hell anyway, why be good? Or, if whatever, but I do find that belief really strong and they did, everything was assigned from God in the Puritan ages.
    And that, during all their various witch trials, when they, when the accused were being accused, a lot of them had, part of that accusation was whatever familiar that they had. And a lot of times it was either some sort of a bird, a cat, rats were another one I think you would quite often see. So then, those just over time, and even once those beliefs got put aside and we got more scientific about stuff, those types of stories stuck with us as humans. And we, and then you have like our Victorian authors, like Edgar Allan Poe, who used all of those in their stories and in their writings. And so again, in our psyche, that all now sits in our brains as being very scary and dark and or ritualistic, depending on, again, what it is. And we see a lot of that.
    [00:36:37] Dianne Hartshorn: Especially had those strong beliefs, and they had the the control of church, they, even if it didn't make any sense whatsoever, people couldn't question it, because if they questioned it, then they probably would be accused of being a witch because they questioned it. So it just was easier to perpetuate the story that continues. So yeah, it's easier sometimes just to go along and not say anything than try to make real sense out of some of these omens.
    [00:37:10] Jennie Johnson: We were talking about protection and stuff, and this kind of goes back to some cemeteries. So something some people would do in cemeteries, and even before cemeteries became cemeteries as we think of them now, trees held a big belief for, certain trees held certain types of beliefs of protection, especially. And so graves were put under certain trees or near certain trees or trees were planted on top of graves for the very reason of protecting against all these other omens that are out there.
    Yew trees are a big one, willows, the silver birch, all of those trees have a lot of important symbolism in protecting against the evils of death or evil spirits. Yew trees are specifically like a symbol of immortality. And for a long time in European customs, a lot of times they would carry yew branches on Palm Sunday to church instead of having, like now we use palms, but a lot of times they would use yew branches. 
    Or they would carry them during a funeral too. It was part of the funeral ritual. They would have them. In Ireland, yew was the coffin of the vine, wine barrels were often made of yew because it imbibed the wine with good juju, it was good. I don't know if it actually made the wine taste better or not, but it apparently helped protect the wine from bad things. And so they used yew for that. 
    The willow tree, which is one of my favorite trees, it's gone back and forth being a good tree and a bad tree. It depends on the season, a lot of times the Victorians, actually slightly before the Victorians, they started using yew trees as a symbol of mourning, and you will see them a lot on graves and headstones, because they are sad and they're weeping and the weeping willow is what we get from that. 
    But it can also be like, there's other traditions, and if you've ever read any of the Lord of the Rings books, the trees have a lot of issues in there, but the Willow, Old Man Willow in the first Lord of the Rings, in the Fellowship, he's quite sinister and evil and dark and has a dark spirit within his tree, so willows, like I said, they've over time have gone back and forth from being a good tree and a not so good tree, but they are very often associated with death, and you will find them a lot in cemeteries or burials will have been put beneath them. 
    And then the other one I really thought was fun was the silver birch tree, which for a lot of, if you're Wiccan, a lot of them look at that as the Goddess Tree or the Lady of the Woods. And it's associated with light and new beginnings, love, and fertility, so it has a very good symbol. It's a tree that can protect against evil spirits. So you'll find that one sometimes near graves, because it's protecting the deceased from the evil spirits who might come to, to, claim those bodies. And it's a much happier tree than the willow tree. And I didn't find any evil connotations connected with the silver birch tree, other than they used to like to use birch branches for like whipping your children and stuff. Or they would whip, if whipping became your punishment in town for something, because they believed that using the birch branch would help drive out the evil that was making you be naughty. 
    [00:40:30] Sarah Jack: Wow. 
    [00:40:30] Jennie Johnson: I thought was interesting. I do have some stuff about insects. I always think it's interesting, because I know a lot of people will see like butterflies or dragonflies as a good omen, you know, when somebody's died, and then you see it land on their headstone. Or even if you're out somewhere and you see one and somebody has recently passed, a lot of times we will associate those particular insects with like the soul of the person coming back in that.
    But butterflies, again, this is culture to culture, so different. Some cultures, butterflies, especially if they're black or they have a lot of black in their wings, represent trapped souls that have been trapped within the butterfly, which is not necessarily a good thing to them.
    But then other cultures look at it, because of the way a butterfly transitions into a butterfly and their cycle of life with the cocoon and going from the caterpillar all the way up to the butterfly. A lot of other cultures use that as a representation of death. The same way our life was sort of our caterpillar phase and then death becomes your butterfly phase, and your soul is free and it can fly away to heaven or wherever as a butterfly. And I thought that was a very beautiful, more poetic way of looking at it. 
    [00:41:48] Dianne Hartshorn: Cause the omens have all been taken as something as being evil for whatever reason, I'm sure it had its purpose at the time for whoever came out with what the omens signified. But what if we took those, all these evil omens, turn them into something positive, like the butterfly? I could see in a way that it was black and that but when I have seen butterflies at the cemetery, it's a sign from the person that has passed. So it'd be interesting to change, to flip the omens into something, but then they wouldn't be omens anymore. 
    [00:42:24] Jennie Johnson: Moths kind of have the same thing. It's funny, cause moths freak a lot of people out more so than butterflies, even though they're related. But they're seen as rebirth, resurrection, changing. And because moths are drawn to light, like actual moths are drawn to actual light, there's a lot of associations where the moth is leading a soul from darkness into light. So the soul, they're like saying, "okay, follow me. Don't get away from the light. Follow me into the light."
    Unless you're in Latin America, and then they're bad, because moths come out only at night type thing. So then they're a bad omen down there, but a lot of other cultures look at moths as a more positive thing. And, it's, again, the transformation from one form to another when you die. And so I kind of like the whole leading it, leading your soul into the light and it's that guide so you don't get lost along the way.
     When I was doing our research for this, things are passed down word of mouth, grandparent to grandchild. And a lot of times, because a lot of cultures do revere their elders, like their elder elders, they're the ones that had the wisdom. So these, whether they're omens or whether they're signs of protection or whether they're a good sign, like they help it. It's the older generations that held that wisdom and made sure that it got passed on to the next generation. Their hope was that somebody within that generation would continue on with those beliefs and pass them down again. And of course they change over time, too. 
    [00:43:49] Josh Hutchinson: I was thinking about how there are good omens and signs that people embrace, things like rainbows. I was thinking, and this might blur the line between what's an omen and what's good luck, what's a lucky break, because finding a penny might be interpreted as good luck, or finding a four leaf clover, but, or it could be a sign that, you found this four leaf clover, is that a sign of something? I don't know, but I think we still have a lot of those in our society today.
    [00:44:29] Jennie Johnson: Oh, for sure. Yeah, and like finding the penny, finding it face up is better luck than finding it tails up, that type of thing. When it comes to coins, there's actually a lot of coins that get left on graves. Most of the time it has to do with the military significance. Each one of those coins has a significance, like if it's a penny, you're just saying thank you for your service. If it's a nickel, you knew the person, and the higher up you go, if it's a quarter, that means you served with them during combat type things. So they have those representations, and so there are a lot of times, especially in military graves, you'll find those coins and it's a sign of respect to leave them.
    So don't steal the coins off the graves, because then that becomes a bad luck sign if you take the coins away from the graves. Same thing with rocks. Rocks are more of a Jewish tradition. Leaving a rock on a grave symbolizes you were there to visit them. But I have seen plenty of rocks on graves that are not Jewish, because I think a lot of people like that. It's a comforting thing for them to say, "I was here, and I want you to know I was here." Whoever the deceased is, it's your way of saying, "I was here." So again, not removing the rocks that got left on graves. I know it bothers some people, but leave them, leave them. 
    [00:45:44] Dianne Hartshorn: It's a sign of respect. When you know what it is, and you've like laid the coins on the military headstones, or, rocks placed, it's just something, I keep using the word sacred, because for me, a cemetery is sacred, and that's why we don't do paranormal stuff. 
    [00:46:04] Josh Hutchinson: I wanted to point out that we've been back to Salem and at the memorials there, people leave coins, flowers, of course, rocks, crystals, seashells are really popular. Because we don't know where most of those people are buried. So because they weren't allowed in the cemeteries. So people leave these tributes behind.
    [00:46:32] Jennie Johnson: We had a guest on who was telling us about the cemeteries in Galveston, and there's one particular grave, the woman who's buried there, she was murdered on Mardi Gras, during a Mardi Gras celebration, and it's become the tradition after their Mardi Gras parade, a lot of people will go visit her grave, and they leave all their beads, so her headstone is covered in the beads that people have left over the years, and Kathleen was, our guest, was saying the only time they remove them at this point is if they break, like the actual beads break or whatever, they'll clean up the broken beads, but they pretty much leave all the other ones that get wrapped around her headstone there because it became, and this happened back in the 1880s, but it's been a tradition since then to visit that grave and leave all those beads for her, which I think is really special. Yeah. And she doesn't get forgotten this way. 
    She had come to America from England and married a not so great guy. And she was actually granted a divorce, because the judge was like, yeah, you shouldn't be married to him. He's horrible. And she actually ended up getting custody of his two daughters that were not even hers biologically. And unfortunately his jealousy got the best of him, and he was the one who murdered her later on. But her story could have been one of those that kind of got lost and forgotten, but because of when it happened and where her grave is located, nobody, people go in and they respect it, and they visit her and they say, "hey, we're still thinking about you for 150 years later. We haven't forgotten her."
    So that is one of the good things about cemeteries is you will see a lot of stuff on and around graves, because people are trying to remember. There, if the Central City cemeteries here in Colorado, those were, the majority of them were mining families or whatever, and there's a lot of children's graves, and there's a lot of people who still, they may not have any actual connection to them, they may not be descendants or whatever, but I will see, especially on the children's graves, people will still leave a lot of toys and other little knickknacks for the kids, because they're just so sad about the idea of losing a child, and so those graves, if you're ever up there wandering around, you'll see a lot of little stuffed animals and toy trucks and things that have been left by people who have zero connection to the families there, but they just are touched by the fact that it's a child's grave and they want to honor that child's short little life, however long it was, which I always find very sweet.
    [00:48:50] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary. 
     
    [00:49:01] Mary Bingham: Imagine someone living in colonial times who learned differently and simply could not follow the status quo. Imagine the life of Jacob Goodall, Giles Corey's healthy, robust servant who's only downfall was that he was considered to be simple-minded. Instead of exercising patience with Jacob, one fateful day, Giles beat him with the thick end of a stick, striking him harshly about 100 times. A shocked Elijah Kibbe, who witnessed the event, ran to Giles and told him to stop.
    Not only that, but Giles' son in law, John Parker, struck Jacob with the side of a bed. Soon after, on June 28th, 1676, Jacob Goodall, being bruised and swollen all over, succumbed to his injuries. Giles Corey was not charged with murder, because Jacob did not die right after the initial beatings. The only punishment Giles received was to pay a fine and reimburse the witnesses. What a slap in the face for Jacob, to say the least. John Parker received no discipline by the court for his atrocious actions towards Jacob. Though he may have learned differently or may have other mental health issues, Jacob did not deserve to die such a cruel death. No one does. Rest in peace, Jacob Goodall.
    Thank you. 
     
    [00:50:39] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [00:50:41] Josh Hutchinson: Now, here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [00:50:51] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for following along on our weekly news. How's your advocating going? Have you found your platform to share about the modern day witch hunts and sorcery accusation violence crisis happening today in your world? You can start being an advocate by sharing witch attack victim news articles, research, or social media posts. Share your favorite international advocate episode with your circle of influence today. Go back and listen to any of our informative international advocate episodes and then write a post on your social media in your own words about what can be done to help end witch hunts. Keep getting more comfortable with the subject by sharing it and talking about it.
    Congratulations to writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling of Light the Match Productions on the new play production Prick. Prick, inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign, will now be premiering in London this January. This creative play tells the story of folks who were witch trial victims in Scotland. Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. Give them a shout out on social media and help spread the word about this exciting news. If you missed it, go back and listen to our conversation with the creators of Prick on episode 47, "Prick, A Play of the Scottish Witch Trials." Congratulations, friends. 
    Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. Learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.
     
    [00:52:40] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [00:52:42] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [00:52:47] Sarah Jack: Join us all spooky season.
    [00:52:50] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and drop us a review.
    [00:52:55] Sarah Jack: Visit us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [00:52:58] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell all your friends and family and everybody else you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
    [00:53:06] Sarah Jack: Support our effort to end witch hunts, visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [00:53:11] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today, a beautiful tomorrow, and a happy Halloween.
     
    
  • A Year of Talking Witch Hunts

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, Anniversary Special. This episode was recorded live and unscripted at the Podcast Movement Conference in Denver, CO. With the anniversary of their first episode fast approaching, cohosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack take this rare opportunity to discuss their favorite things and reflect upon the past year and the experience of producing a podcast. This is the story of how Thou Shalt Not Suffer became what it is after in 12 months. 

    Links

    Mrs. Krieger, Vermont’s Only Witch, The Looking Glass

    Pownal Historical Society Facebook Page

    Support Us! Shop Our Book Shop

    Resolution Concerning Certain Witchcraft Convictions in Colonial Connecticut

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Fact Sheet for Connecticut Witch Trial History

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson. 
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. 
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, Sarah Jack. 
    [00:00:29] Sarah Jack: I'm good. 
    [00:00:30] Josh Hutchinson: We're actually together for the first time recording in person with each other. We're at Podcast Movement in Denver, and we're having a great time, aren't we? 
    [00:00:40] Sarah Jack: We are. 
    [00:00:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Learning a lot. 
    [00:00:43] Sarah Jack: Yeah. 
    [00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: So far. Off to a good start. In a change of pace, I'm going to start by getting to know Sarah a little better. 
    [00:00:54] Sarah Jack: Oh, dear. 
    [00:00:54] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, Sarah. What's your favorite movie? 
    [00:00:58] Sarah Jack: Jaws. 
    [00:00:59] Josh Hutchinson: Jaws? Why is that? 
    [00:01:00] Sarah Jack: Jaws. 
    [00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: Why? 
    [00:01:01] Sarah Jack: I love anything with a chase and an attack. And the book. 
    [00:01:06] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, and you love the book also. 
    [00:01:09] Sarah Jack: I did. Yeah. 
    [00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Okay. 
    [00:01:12] Sarah Jack: The characters.
    [00:01:13] Josh Hutchinson: Characters. Yeah.
    [00:01:16] Sarah Jack: I've watched it hundreds of times. 
    [00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: I love the sheriff guy. What's his name? Brody? 
    Yeah. 
    Yeah, Brody. He's pretty cool. And the Richard Dreyfuss guy. 
    [00:01:30] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's, as many times as I've seen it, I can't think of the name. 
    [00:01:35] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. That other guy. 
    [00:01:37] Sarah Jack: This is a very different feel than the normal. 
    [00:01:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, doing a podcast together in person. We're recording in a booth with a glass wall and people are walking by and we're just not used to the distractions. I know I'm not, but 
    [00:01:54] Sarah Jack: What's your favorite movie, Josh? 
    [00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, my favorite movie is Dumb and Dumber and that's just because it's hilarious. And it stands the test of time. It's just a classic. Came out when I was in high school, so it was one of those movies that I went to attend without my parents that was a little bit raunchy at times but just mostly the slapstick humor, and that really is something I'm a fan of, I'd say.
    How about a TV show? 
    [00:02:33] Sarah Jack: The Walking Dead. 
    [00:02:35] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah?
    [00:02:36] Sarah Jack: Or any of its spinoffs. 
    [00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: Many spinoffs of that show now. 
    [00:02:41] Sarah Jack: There's even a new one starting next month. Can't wait. 
    [00:02:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, what's that new one? 
    [00:02:46] Sarah Jack: It's got Daryl. I don't remember what it's called, but I just finished watching the first season of Dead City, which was a spinoff on two of the characters.
    [00:02:54] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, Dead City. Okay. 
    [00:02:56] Sarah Jack: It was great. 
    [00:02:58] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. 
    [00:02:58] Sarah Jack: One of my favorite zombie situations of the whole series was in this season. 
    [00:03:05] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. What attracts you to the Walking Dead universe? 
    [00:03:10] Sarah Jack: The survival and relationships and making choices and the survival. 
    [00:03:19] Josh Hutchinson: Okay, great. My favorite TV show is Psych. And if you're not familiar with it, it's a detective comedy about a man posing as a psychic and starting a psychic detective agency with his best friend, who's a pharmaceutical sales representative, and it's just a lot of comic hijinks, and, I'm about the same age as the lead actors in that, so they were, I was at the same stage of life when the show aired, and I really saw myself in Sean, the lead character.
    [00:04:00] Sarah Jack: That's great. Today we're learning how to do this on the spot, in person, but what have we learned this past year about podcasting? 
    [00:04:11] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, we have learned so much, it's been a full year. This is the end of that, and we're contemplating what we've learned and how far we've come since then. So much has blown my mind about the experience. It's, we do the full production ourselves. So end to end, getting a podcast made every week is challenging and doing all the edits and stuff, but it's been opportunity for growth, getting new skills, new technical skills, and just the people that we've met. Been amazing. 
    [00:04:56] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Yeah. There's the pace has been fast, putting one out every week, but that those deadlines keep us moving even when we weren't exactly sure, throwing ourselves out there and trying the next thing. 
    [00:05:12] Josh Hutchinson: And we have tried different things. We do usually an interview, but we've also done our own 101 episodes. And we've interviewed such a variety of guests, the academics, the artists, the advocates, it's been quite an array. And just wonderful meeting people from all these different walks of life. 
    [00:05:40] Sarah Jack: It has been amazing. And so we've got that learning curve going on, while at the same time, we're starting to learn more about witch hunts past, witch hunts present.
    [00:05:53] Josh Hutchinson: The witch hunts present, that I would say has been the most impactful lesson of this whole thing for us. It prompted us to start a nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. We learned the reality, the sad reality that many hundreds, if not thousands of people are being tortured, banished, and or killed each year in occurring in at least 60 nations that there've been reports from. And it's just so prolific and widespread, when we learned about that, it just touched our hearts right away and we knew we wanted to amplify the message of those advocates who are doing the great work in these various countries struggling with this problem. 
    [00:06:50] Sarah Jack: Yeah, we, I've looked at the work that we were doing as before educational, telling you the information, telling you what's happening, but there's another part of that and that is finding out what needs to be done. So we hope that you learn what's happening, but also hear what you need to be doing to help stop it. 
    [00:07:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And our path to where we are now, that's been so enlightening and revelatory. We started off with that interview of Damon Leff about South African witch hunts. And then we had Leo Igwe talk to us about Nigeria, and those two interviews brought us along really far, but what we've done since then is maintain relationships with those guests, and we've had the opportunity to meet Leo in person and help him with a speaking tour in New England this past May. Just that relationship with him leads to continued growing, and now our colleague, Mary Bingham, has reached out to advocates worldwide, and we're meeting so many people from so many countries that, continuing us on this path to wherever we're going, trying to eliminate this violence.
    [00:08:29] Sarah Jack: The witch attacks are violent, and they're in more communities than you would imagine, and learning from the history, looking at the research from academics and those who've been out in the field where these attacks are happening, looking at all of it is really important to understanding the bigger picture. Sometimes we hear that people don't quite understand those historic witch hunts, and if we don't understand what was happening then and we don't understand what's happening now, we're not going to find solutions. 
    [00:09:03] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. That's why we got into the podcast, I think, in the first place, was to educate people primarily about historic witch hunts in Connecticut and elsewhere. We've launched the podcast with that education in mind because when we started the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, we were just getting weird looks from people anytime we mentioned that Connecticut had witch trials in the first place. People just weren't aware of that, and we thought we'll use every form of media that we can, and podcasting just seemed a natural outgrowth of that.
    And I'd say that's why we got involved was just to educate, but what we're learning is there are so many connections between the past witch trials and the modern witchcraft persecutions that learning about one helps you learn about the other, because if you can understand what happened in, say, 1692 in Salem, you can understand what's happening in 2023 in any of these nations that are affected by this and vice versa, if you understand what's going on right now, you understand the same suffering that happened before. So I think continuing to educate about both of those aspects is what lies ahead of us in the future. Yeah. 
    [00:10:46] Sarah Jack: One of the things that I didn't expect when I started was how much Research I was going to be doing to be prepared for our episodes, for the guests that were coming, and that we're continually being informed by our preparation. Were you surprised at how much preparation we do for each episode? 
    [00:11:06] Josh Hutchinson: I was, yeah. The research is constant, continuous, every day, seven days of the week. Research It basically fills in every hour that we're not doing the production tasks, we're doing the research tasks. So these are full days and doing a 101, especially, it's really takes nearly a week to do the, just the research and write out what we're going to talk about and how we're going to present it.
    So yeah, the research. It's, it's been so beneficial, that's probably what surprised me more is just the amount, the number of different topics that we're reading about. Because we can be reading in the same week, as we were recently. We're reading a novel, we're reading a screenplay, we're reading research and learning about witch hunts in India.
    At the same time, we're learning about witch hunts in Scotland. And we're learning about witch hunting at Salem. Just that variety of what we're learning has been, I just, I adore it, really. I like the research, because I'm that history nerd. And I'm just so curious about the current situation and what's going on and how do we solve that? So constantly reading is a great benefit. 
    [00:12:47] Sarah Jack: One of the things that I love the most is as I'm reading and thinking about talking to our guests, I know that I'm going to get to have some questions clarified. Even though the podcast episode is literally a set of questions and conversation that comes from that, I know that I don't have to read something, look at something that I'm reading and wonder. If I need something answered, I'm going to get a moment to ask the question, even if it's not part of the script. So I've really loved that direct access to the people who've created the information. And the other thing that has come out of the variety of the topics is we, when we hear from our listeners, and we do, which we love it, we hear all sorts of different ways the show's impacting them. Sometimes they share research that they've done to update us on something. Sometimes they ask questions. A lot of the times it's just, "Hey, we're so glad you're doing this." And one of the, one of the things that came out of our week with Leo Igwe this May, if you listen to his episode that we did directly after that, he talked about that he hopes that next time he comes through the United States, there's more, "hey, what can I do to help?" and less "you're kidding me. I had no idea." And I really feel like people are understanding that they need to inform themselves more on the modern crisis, and there's a lot of information out there to do so. I'm feeling really hopeful about that goal. 
    [00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. I'm really excited about the advocates that we're meeting and getting more of them on the podcast is something I look forward to, but you also made a good point about that direct access to ask questions. It's quite a privilege to be able to speak with these esteemed professors and other guests who've written about the witch trials. Many of our guests are people whose books I've been reading for years. And so it's been really something to now be talking with them in, I say in person, but it's, we do our recording remotely because Sarah and I are in different states and our guests are all around the world. But having that access you talk about to directly to the brains that have all the information, whatever questions arise in our research, we're able just to ask the experts.
    And so that's really something. 
    [00:15:42] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's really great and another thing that's exceptional that has come out of this is our community is there and has grown. When we've reached out to our previous guests, all, they've all been so willing to answer other questions or help with new ideas. Yeah, I guess I'd like to thank our guests directly, each of you, because so many of you have communicated with us on the side afterwards. We're starting to bring back some of our guests. That's really exciting, but that's a huge component, the ongo the conversation is ongoing with our guests after their episode is complete. 
    [00:16:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, and we do thank all of you guests. We appreciate you very much all of your help and just giving us your time and allowing us to pick your brain. We really appreciate that and hope that this message is starting to get out to people around the world and yeah, I look forward to continuing to grow. 
    One of the big moments in the podcast for me was landing our first, all of our first guests, and talking the first time to a university professor was a really big moment. When we had Scott Culpepper on, that was big. And Danny Buck was the first international guest we interviewed, plus the first thesis we read. Talking to Malcolm Gaskill was incredible, because I'd read so many of his books. Several, can't number the books, but, once that happened, guests just kept wanting to come on and the positive response that we've had from the academic community is something that surprised me.
    [00:17:46] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And we couldn't, we could not have done this without them. 
    [00:17:50] Josh Hutchinson: That's very true. 
    [00:17:51] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And then I think back to our very first episode, it was our exoneration project team members, Tony Griego, Beth Caruso, Josh, and I, and then we did a piece of the conversation with Mary Bingham. We just kicked it off with ourselves, but Scott came next, because he had been working on, he was giving, he was teaching on Connecticut witch trials and Governor Winthrop, Jr., and that was like a really great second springboard for us. 
    [00:18:24] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And then since then we've interviewed so many people who have literally written the book on the subject that we're talking about, like the book. So many of our guests, you look at early authors that we had on the show, Marion Gibson, Mary Craig, they literally wrote the book on the subject that we talked to them about. And people like Emerson Baker and Margo Burns and so many others have written these excellent books that I highly recommend, and one way that listeners can support us is by buying those books through our bookshop.org, bookshop.org/endwitchhunts. Thank you very much.
    [00:19:20] Sarah Jack: Yeah. It's really fun to look through those books in there. And it, when you look through all of the titles from the guests that we've had, it's amazing to know that that much information and research has been a part of what has come together. And when you listen to these episodes with these authors who have written the book, you're getting to hear more straight from the author. I love that part. 
    [00:19:46] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And most of the time our show is serious in nature. But we've been able to record some fun episodes. We've got a really fun one coming up with Katherine Howe That's actually about pirates, so for one week, we will be the Witch Trials and Pirates Podcast. And that was just such a blast, because that book is such a fun ride.
    [00:20:16] Sarah Jack: Yeah. A year ago, we were so excited about Ruin of All Witches. That book is so important and also a fun ride. And I think it's so great that here we are a year later, we're looking at another exceptional story, so what's next year? I'm thinking about that. Which of our guests or who are we going to find that has something like this exciting coming out?
    [00:20:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And Katherine Howe is somebody that I've followed for many years who now we talk to, and it's just an amazing privilege, perk of the job, that I've got to pinch myself sometimes and say, yeah, we're talking to these people. We're talking to people who are heroes in their own countries doing the advocacy that is dangerous because if you advocate against witch hunting, people might interpret that as advocating for witches and they, there can be serious consequences when, if you yourself get labeled that way.
    [00:21:24] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And we've really learned too about the definition of witches and, how does all of this affect people who are practicing Wiccans or Pagans and their discrimination that they face and how it's different. Yeah, we're just learning all these different layers of the witch and I remember when we, early on, I'm just thinking, man, it's like peeling an onion, it's like peeling an onion, and then there's just the, all these layers and there's been all these different ways of referring to the layers and the complexities and... 
    [00:22:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. So many layers to learn about. And one thing that I like about our podcast, in particular, is we're able to take these deep dives. When we did our Connecticut 101, it ended up being a six part series, so we're able to explore the details of the events that transpired. We're able to review an entire witch hunt from start to finish, because we're taking that time to do that, where a lot of shows, especially that are interview only, you're not able to explore that far, you're able to explore things at a high level, which is really important also, but to be able to do both and do a mix like we've done. And then to do follow up interviews and interview other people about similar, maybe this, we've talked to multiple people about Salem. We've talked to multiple people about Connecticut. We've drilled into those pretty extensively, but we've also approached those from the high level to see what caused those witch hunting events and what helped to end those witch hunt events, which is, both are key to our understanding what's going on now and how does it end? It ended for Europe and North America to the most part, for the most part. Organized witch trials aren't happening any longer. So what was it about that point in time when those witch trials ended in those regions? What was it about that point in time that they were able to overcome centuries of persecutions. And how do we apply that to the modern day? So I love getting the high level, but I also love being able to drill into, and we've got some more 101s coming up, and we've also got some really exciting Halloween content, don't we?
    [00:24:30] Sarah Jack: We do. Yeah. We got to bring Scott Culpepper back. And we talked about the origins of Halloween, and I'm really excited for that episode. 
    [00:24:40] Josh Hutchinson: I'm so excited for that one. It was a bit of a fun episode. We talked about some fun things while also tying everything back to the portrayals of witches, things like that. I'm also really looking forward to talking with Maya Rook about witches in pop culture. 
    [00:25:02] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that again. It coming, through a year and getting to speak with some of our first guests a second time is exciting. And I'm excited to discuss the pop culture aspect of witches with Maya. It's something, throughout the year, I think that topic comes up as a layer, but we haven't really got to spend much time really discussing that, its impact on women, on culture, on society, on the arts. So it should be really enjoyable. 
    [00:25:42] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And we have another episode coming up that's going to be a real blast talking Halloween history with Sean and Carrie from Ain't It Scary with Sean and Carrie. That's one of our first real crossover kind of episode that we're doing with another podcast and they're just so much fun on their show. I know we're just going to have a ball doing that.
    And then what else do we have coming up for Halloween, Sarah? 
    [00:26:14] Sarah Jack: The Ordinary Extraordinary Cemetery. They travel and they talk about cemeteries, and one of the topics that we're going to discuss with them is omen, signs.
    [00:26:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. That's going to be very interesting. And again, that speaks to the variety of content that we've had on the show. I wouldn't have expected to be doing an episode like that when we began. We began with a relatively narrow focus and have broadened into so many different areas. 
    One thing that I'd like to touch on is, Sarah, we talk about a lot of really heavy stuff, a lot of deep topics and our guests give us so much information that sometimes it's a little hard to process everything that's going on and to deal with really challenging subject matter at times. So how do you, would you say you get through those challenging moments?
    [00:27:31] Sarah Jack: I really try to go ahead and, put myself in the shoes of those people that were in those stories. Even though it's really hard to look at some of the horror, if you humanize it and really think about what was that personal journey like for that person? Who wasn't that much different, if they are at all, from us? So I think that's one way that I do. 
    [00:27:58] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I like to repeat, we have this little mantra in our organization that is just "mellow vibes" and so when things get heavy, I just remember to keep mellow vibes and be chill about stuff, basically. But at times it's challenging because the subjects are so ponderous, the talking about the modern witch hunts, especially, learning what's actually happening to the victims, which we don't always share all the details, because they're really gruesome. But we're seeing videos and images of victims and that can really weigh on you. But I just find a lot of motivation in that and turn it around to just use those images to inspire me to push harder and keep doing what we're doing with the show and with the nonprofit, End Witch Hunts. By the way, visit endwitchhunts.org. 
    [00:29:12] Sarah Jack: Yeah. 
    [00:29:13] Josh Hutchinson: Learn about our organization. We started as a continuation of the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project. The board consists of four of the founders of the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, plus the wonderful Jen Stevenson as secretary.
    We have multiple projects running. We're excited that we get to probably talk to you about more of our projects coming up very soon, but we're working on memorialization in Connecticut right now. That's one thing that we're working on, and we're working on this world advocacy now, as well, largely amplifying other voices from these countries that have these issues.
    [00:30:11] Sarah Jack: Yep. And there's still some exonerations that need to be looked at in the United States. 
    [00:30:15] Josh Hutchinson: There are other exonerations and so our show and our nonprofit organization we're doing, basically trying to honor the memory of past victims, educate about the past trials and of the many lessons that we can learn from witch trials, and inform people about the modern crisis. And then our other kind of branch or activity that we get into is advocacy, which is trying to inform world leaders about the situation and the options on how it can be resolved. 
    [00:31:07] Sarah Jack: Yeah, we've learned through the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project that community leaders are a critical part of moving forward with education and change around witch hunts. We are so grateful to Jane Garibay, House Representative Jane Garibay in Connecticut and Senator Saud Anwar. They worked so hard to get support from the other legislators, and when I say work hard, they were doing, navigating through their jobs and how they see bills through the process, but there, there was a lot of, some of it new information to them, and they were so attentive as we gave them more layers and more layers, and by the time the bill was on the last vote at the Senate floor, the modern witch hunt crisis was being mentioned. We'd had so many yes votes from the House from all political parties, and so when that final vote happened in the Senate and everyone voted yes but one politician, that, that really was a testament to the work that had been done into the project. 
    [00:32:20] Josh Hutchinson: And now that the exoneration has been done, the work of memorialization has begun. 
    [00:32:29] Sarah Jack: It has. We're excited about it. There's lots of community members and community organizations talking together, brainstorming, looking for that route, and you are welcome and should be a part of this. 
    [00:32:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, you can join us. Go to ConnecticutWitchTrials.org. There is a volunteer form on there you can fill out, if you'd like to help out with planning and executing this project to get a memorial built. And I want to talk a little bit about why a memorial and what a memorial might be. We're looking into doing a two pronged memorial, where there'd be one state memorial to all of the victims. We'd name all of the indicted, as well as those who were executed and honor all, so that would be 34 individuals.
    And in addition to the statewide memorial or monument, there would be a state trail that called something like the Connecticut Witch Trials History Trail. And that would involve stops in each of the towns that either had witch trial action or were the hometowns of the victims, so you might start in Windsor, the hometown of the first victim, Alice Young, and travel through the state, you go through places like Farmington, Wethersfield, Hartford, Wallingford, Stratford, Fairfield, Bridgeport, New Haven, Old Saybrook, and there's even a stop in, on Long Island at East Hampton because that used to be part of Connecticut and while it was part of Connecticut, one woman was tried for witchcraft by a Connecticut court. 
    [00:34:42] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And over the last decades or more, there have been people working and providing and researching their local witch trial in their town in Connecticut, and having this trail, having the memorial, it's an opportunity to bring all the work that's been done to, to connect it so that Connecticut has a clear picture and it's, each of the efforts won't be so siloed, there's just so much that has actually been done, but some of it isn't reaching the whole state. The whole picture isn't being told yet, and so I'm excited to see more of that shown, how the work has been done on the local level in many of the communities.
    [00:35:33] Josh Hutchinson: It's exciting how the local communities are embracing the history and they're willing to take it on. It's a challenging moment in history. A lot of people look at it and feel shame and guilt for that. So it's not the easiest subject to broach that hey, we hunted witches here. But we need to learn those lessons and you learn them very well by going to these locations where trials were held, where executions took place, where victims lived their lives and accusations arose. You get to go to physical locations now in some of these locations. There's the Goody Knapp Memorial in Bridgeport dedicated to a woman who was executed in that area. It's so great to see these communities, and we know of others that are working on getting memorial markers placed similar to what was done with the Goody Knapp stone with the plaque on it dedicated to her memory.
    You'll start to see those in these other locations, and we're starting to see historical societies and museums really take an interest in this part of the past, and so there will be lots of stops on the trail, but the basic premise is you go to a memorial and then for more information you go to historical societies, museums, and libraries in that community, and they'll have answers to your questions about what happened there. That's our vision for the trail, for the memorial. We've talked about our advocacy, we've talked about amplifying other advocates voices. What haven't we talked about? 
    [00:37:49] Sarah Jack: And just like all of that came out in less than a year, but there's one other thing that I was thinking while we were sitting here talking is this wasn't our first podcast to have a conversation on. No. 
    [00:38:00] Josh Hutchinson: What was that? 
    [00:38:01] Sarah Jack: People Hidden in History. 
    [00:38:03] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, that's right. We had a conversation on the People Hidden in History podcast with Kathleen Langone a month before we conducted our first interview for this podcast. And so that was an informative step and we really appreciate you, Kathleen. 
    [00:38:24] Sarah Jack: We do. And if you haven't heard it, she did a followup conversation with us after the exoneration went through and that also a great episode.
    [00:38:34] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. So a year apart, there's the two episodes of us, what we wanted to get out of the exoneration in the first episode, and then what it was like to experience the process of getting the resolution done. 
    [00:38:51] Sarah Jack: And we also, we had our first invite as Thou Shalt Not Suffer to have a conversation on another podcast to talk about witches.
    [00:39:02] Josh Hutchinson: Witches, yes. That was a big one. And then you were invited to be on the NPR show 1A. 
    [00:39:13] Sarah Jack: Yeah. 
    [00:39:13] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. 
    [00:39:14] Sarah Jack: Having the opportunity on Extreme Genes with Scott Fisher and David Allen Lambert that, that's their podcast. That really helped me realize, hey, I can have some of these impromptu conversations. I can speak to what I've been learning. 
    [00:39:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And in addition to the podcast, going through the process on exoneration, we had so much interaction with traditional media. Everybody had questions about what are we doing? Why are we doing it? And learning, getting comfortable answering journalists questions, I think, really also benefited our podcasting. 
    [00:39:58] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and so many of them were able to get what we were saying through the editing and into the article. There's some really great articles and quotes out there this past year from those interactions. 
    [00:40:13] Josh Hutchinson: The stories about the exoneration were picked up by literally hundreds of news networks and outlets. We got to see us in the Associated Press, Sarah was in the New York Times, there's been, we've been in The Economist. Some really big organizations have covered our story, CNN, the BBC, all of them, basically. 
    [00:40:48] Sarah Jack: And I hope what you're hearing, we haven't spoken much of the descendants. There were lots of descendants involved wanting this exoneration. They want the memorial. We have a great episode where we talk to some of the descendants, but the, there was such a collaboration of descendants and authors and advocates and politicians and the local museums. It's really been great to see. It's not just one reason that the exoneration.
    [00:41:18] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. And just looking through, there were something like 34 written testimonies submitted to the General Assembly in support of this resolution, and 11 people gave in-person oral testimony. 
    [00:41:39] Sarah Jack: I got to be one of those people. 
    [00:41:42] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah got to be one of those people. And she ought to be asked some difficult questions, we'd say. And there were young people also involved in that with William and Catherine. 
    [00:41:57] Sarah Jack: It was Catherine, 14, stood up, spoke to the history, answered some tough questions. 
    [00:42:04] Josh Hutchinson: Brilliantly. 
    [00:42:05] Sarah Jack: Yeah, and William. 
    [00:42:07] Josh Hutchinson: And William. 
    [00:42:07] Sarah Jack: Exceptional for 9, I believe. Yeah. 
    [00:42:10] Josh Hutchinson: Nine years old at the time. 
    [00:42:12] Sarah Jack: And you could hear he and his mother speak on one of our episodes. That's a really great episode, too. Jennifer Schloat was a great guest. 
    [00:42:19] Josh Hutchinson: That was a really great episode to do with the two of them. And just to hear a 9 year old and a 14 year old speaking to these issues, and they both came from different perspectives on how they got interested in the topic. I think one was compelled for, by his interest in human rights issues and the other was really propelled by an interest in women's issues and you see all of those things coming together.
    [00:42:57] Sarah Jack: Look at the story we just told. It's a very layered podcast and podcast year, and we couldn't do it without our supporters. 
    [00:43:06] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we thank you for listening. Couldn't do a podcast without having listeners, that would be awkward. We really appreciate you interacting with us, and subscribing to the show and getting involved in the ways that Sarah presents.
    We haven't talked about the news piece and Minute with Mary. Those are two important segments of the show and those will continue to be important going forward. The news, every week Sarah asked the audience to participate in the advocacy. You can do it just by telling somebody that you know about what's going on. Just get that started, post something on social media, share something that we post. Now, so thank you for your involvement. I hope you have a really great today and a very excellent, happy tomorrow. 
    [00:44:16] Sarah Jack: I was going to say, "Hey, let's say your final tagline together."
    [00:44:19] Josh Hutchinson: Okay, let's try it. 
    [00:44:20] Sarah Jack: All right. 
    Have a great today 
    [00:44:24] Josh Hutchinson: and a beautiful tomorrow. We said it together. 
    [00:44:30] Sarah Jack: Yeah. 
    [00:44:30] Josh Hutchinson: So that's a first too for us saying things and we're sitting on a couch and in this booth here and in person. 
    This was fun. 
    It took us like six months to meet each other.
    [00:44:47] Sarah Jack: And now our friend Mary Bingham is here with this week's Minute with Mary.
     
    [00:44:58] Mary Bingham: What does it mean to gaslight a person? As a verb, it means to manipulate someone so much that the person being manipulated questions their own reasoning. Most of us have been on the receiving end of this extremely cruel treatment.
    According to Aaron Mahnke and the podcast titled Unobscured, Hannah Stone certainly was a victim who paid with her life. Hannah was the daughter of Ann and Andrew Foster of Andover, Massachusetts, British America. She married Hugh Stone in 1667 and started to bear him children when their first son, Hugh, was born November 24th, 1668. According to author Richard Hite, Hannah bore six more children through 1686. 
    Between 1680 and 1686, life must have been pretty tough for Hannah. Richard Hite says in his book, In the Shadow of Salem, that Hugh appeared before the quarterly courts three times for being drunk. The two times I found him listed, he seems to man up before the judges, saying that he is sorry. Even Nathaniel Saltonstall believed Hugh was repentant when Hugh voluntarily stepped before him. That Hugh turned himself in could be because some were ready to testify against him. Nathaniel determined that Hugh should pay an undisclosed fine. I wonder if this public displays of misbehaviors, though unsavory as they were probably masked the horror that was really going on in the Stone household.
    Hannah must have feared for her life. What could she do? How could she escape? How could her family help her? They couldn't. Hannah was pregnant when Hugh murdered her in broad daylight and in public. Ann Foster lost her daughter. Hannah's children lost their mother. The generational trauma would become evident in just a few short years.
    Hugh was sentenced to hang. His final words at the gallows were that Hannah's family caused him, at least in part, to murder his wife. He gaslighted his in-laws to the end. What a stab in the stomach that must have been to Hannah's mother and her children. Please listen to the episode in this podcast titled The Andover Witch-Hunt with Richard Hite. You won't be disappointed. Thank you.
     
    [00:47:39] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [00:47:42] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has another insightful edition of End Witch Hunts News.
     
    [00:47:54] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a non profit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch hunt memorials and commemorations now take many forms and serve as enduring, tangible reminders. On September 16th, 2023, a historic and poignant event took place in North Pownal, Vermont, as the community came together to dedicate the Legends and Lore Witch Trial Marker.
    This significant occasion was made possible through the collaboration of the Vermont Folklife Center and the William C. Pomeroy Foundation, with the invaluable support of the Bennington Museum and the Pownal Historical Society. Attendees heard the captivating narrative of the widow with many names, a story that has been passed down through generations. While formal documents about the witch trial have yet to be found, the marker commemorates the Krieger family, who resided in North Pownal, and the remarkable woman who became known as Widow Krieger in 1785. 
    The dedication ceremony featured a heartfelt reading by a Historical Society member who has dedicated years to researching Widow Krieger and her family. During the reading, they shared their personal reflections and wondered what it would have been like to live as Widow Krieger's neighbors in the 1700s. According to student staff writer Eva Dailey of Southern Vermont College Media, The Looking Glass, in the article, Vintage Vermont Lore 5: Mrs. Krieger, Vermont's Only Witch, quote, "though an exact year is not given, as only a brief record of the incident exists, clues are available to those who dig deep enough. According to town records, the Kriegers, a Dutch family, first settled in Pownal in the early 1700s and are mentioned in the original town charter of 1760. Her accusers asserted that she possessed extraordinary powers. According to Vermont's lore expert, Joe Citro, Mrs. Krieger was thrown into the Hoosic River, still iced over by winter, to see if the devil would hold her afloat or not. The story goes that her accusers dove in to rescue her when she sank."
    At the marker ceremony, it was shared that, unable to own land as a woman, the widow was ultimately forced to leave Pownal, Vermont, and return to her birthplace, Williamstown, Massachusetts. Margaret Schumacher Krieger rests in Westlawn Cemetery in Williamstown, Massachusetts, alongside her husband, John, her son, Peter, and her granddaughter, Elizabeth.
    To learn more about this memorial marker and the event, go to the Pownal Historical Society Facebook page. Pownal is spelled P O W N A L. Links to the Facebook page and the referred article are in the show notes.
    Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We have enjoyed this last year with you. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.
     
    [00:51:27] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [00:51:28] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [00:51:30] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
    [00:51:34] Sarah Jack: Join us again for another year.
    [00:51:37] Josh Hutchinson: Once again, have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow and a totally epic next year.
     
  • Diana Helmuth on her Memoir The Witching Year

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Learn about one woman’s passage into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America. Author Diana Helmuth is releasing her second book, The Witching Year: A Memoir of Earnest Fumbling Through Modern Witchcraft in October 2023. In this author interview, we have an unreserved conversation about the year she spent journeying into modern witchcraft practices. She offers a heartfelt discussion on the successes and failures, the ins and outs that her upcoming memoir details.

    DianaHelmuth.com

    Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project

    International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

    Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

    Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

    Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

    The International Network

    Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:00] 
    Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
    Josh Hutchinson: We're eager to bring you this interview with Diana Helmuth, author of The Witching Year: a Memoir of Earnest Fumbling through Modern Witchcraft.
    Sarah Jack: Today you will learn about one woman's journey, Diana's, into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America.
    Josh Hutchinson: Diana spent 366 days learning how to practice the modern craft.
    Sarah Jack: The Witching Year is an honest trip through her successes and failures as she learned the ins and outs. [00:01:00] Here's Diana Helmuth. She studied cultural anthropology at UC Berkeley and American University in Cairo. She is a nonfiction author, freelance writer, Silicon Valley startup veteran, hiker, producer, and cupcake baker. Her first book is How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking. And her new book, The Witching Year, is available to pre order now.
    Josh Hutchinson: We begin with a reading from The Witching Year by author Diana Helmuth.
    Diana Helmuth: In the spirit of better planning, I am trying to come up with a list of what I'm now referring to as significant pagan locations where I can spend Lammas. I don't want to be locked in my office with a cardboard box again, and unfortunately pagan sanctuaries continue to elude me. I've already emailed five in California and received no response. (I'm assuming they are ignoring me because of COVID, but that might also be me just trying to protect my ego.)
    Diana Helmuth: I text both Emma and Lauren about this [00:02:00] problem, asking their advice.
    Diana Helmuth: Lauren replies, "have you thought about going to Salem?"
    Diana Helmuth: And this gets me excited, because I have been waiting for an opportunity to spring into my speech. "Salem?" I reply. "But those women weren't even witches. In fact, they were insisting they were Christian the whole time they were being indicted. Isn't it pretty ironic to build a witchy homeland on their legacy? By doing so, aren't we committing the same offense as their captors and denying the wishes of the falsely accused? How did Salem become a place where actual witches connect?"
    Diana Helmuth: "You have given this some thought," she replies.
    Diana Helmuth: I have. Salem is the home of witchcraft because witchcraft in the modern zeitgeist is a community of weirdos bonding about abandoning Christianity.
    Diana Helmuth: She taps back, "there is no homeland. So we made one. It was easy to put it there."
    Diana Helmuth: "But isn't the place where Christian women insisted they weren't witches and got burned anyway for being witches a pretty dumb place for a witchy homeland?" I retort.[00:03:00]
    Diana Helmuth: "Nobody actually got burned in Salem, she replies. They were hung. As for Europe, women were burned for witchcraft whether or not they were witches, and most weren't. They just owned land or were Romani or just happened to be someone's least favorite washerwoman. But those women became symbols for the persecution of women, and witchcraft is about reclaiming female power, so you end up back at square one."
    Diana Helmuth: I grumble. I can't plan a trip to Salem on this short notice, but I wonder about Samhain, the witch's new year, also known as Halloween. I switch over to Emma, who lives in New England, and ask her what Salem is like in October.
    Diana Helmuth: "Hell," she replies. "You do not want to come here on Halloween. It is goth Outside Lands. There's trash everywhere. You can barely get through the crowds. I thought I was going to have a panic attack just walking around."
    Diana Helmuth: "I see," I reply, a bit disappointed.
    Diana Helmuth: "But as for a Wiccan sacred place," you know, "you've already been going there, [00:04:00] her text bubble reads. It's nature. I don't know if you're aware of this, but your favorite hobby has been, for some time, pretty damn witchy."
    Diana Helmuth: She's right. I know she's right. A deep connection with the earth is one of the few things that witches seem to universally agree is important. At the same time, I know a lot of witches I would lovingly describe as "indoor cats"-- tarot-throwing, tea-sipping, pentacle-wearing cat moms without so much as a potted mint on their windowsill. They have their kinks, but putting everything in a bag and getting spanked by nature for three days isn't one of them.
    Diana Helmuth: "Hiking and backpacking isn't sacred for every witch," I tap back.
    Diana Helmuth: "No," she replies, "but that's the great part about witchcraft. Everyone connects with nature in their own way. You get to make it your own. It's pretty obvious you've felt pulled by nature for a long time. So just keep going."
    Diana Helmuth: I briefly consider telling her about my failed experiment with the oregano and then change my mind.
    Diana Helmuth: Backpacking, while being a favorite hobby, might [00:05:00] also help with meditation. Roderick encourages people who have trouble meditating in stillness to try slow, mindful walking. What's more, walking doesn't hurt my back. It's stillness that is causing me issues. When I'm moving, nothing hurts. I began prepping for my first pilgrimage.
    Sarah Jack: Thank you.
    Josh Hutchinson: You've published two books now, right?
    Diana Helmuth: Yes, the first one was called How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking, which was a kind of a tongue in cheek approach. I like to think of it as a permission slip that I, someone had written for me when I was younger and figuring out backpacking for myself. The idea was allowing people to feel like even if they feel incorrect or like they're doing something wrong, or that someone is going to make fun of them, that they still deserve to go into nature, they can still engage with this hobby, perfection is an illusion, and the [00:06:00] whole thing is pretty goofy and painful in the first place, so just lean into it and fall down a lot, and it's fine. You still belong, you still deserve to do this, which sort of was the energy we took into The Witching Year, even though The Witching Year is not, it's not a how to. It is not prescriptive. It's just a memoir of me falling down a lot, trying to become a witch.
    Josh Hutchinson: What was occupying your time before you started writing?
    Diana Helmuth: I was, like most writers, like most artists, I think you do your art as often as you can while you're doing the other things that make you money or make you feel like a responsible human, taking care of other people and getting your bills paid. But I started to lean more into my writing while I was an operations and marketing assistant at a robotics company, Silicon Valley.
    Diana Helmuth: I went to school. I wanted to [00:07:00] be a diplomat. I wanted to work in the Foreign Service. I was studying Arabic. I wanted to create intercultural communication bridges between the West and the Middle East. And a long story short, that didn't end up happening. I got jaded with some of the processes there, but we don't need to have that conversation.
    Diana Helmuth: I worked in Silicon Valley startup land. I grew up in Northern California. I graduated from college right when the startup scene was booming in San Francisco, and I got swept right up into it. And I don't have any regrets about that, actually. I learned a lot. And I got to work with some really interesting, really smart people in a very interesting and funny time in San Francisco's history.
    Sarah Jack: What led you to begin your year long spiritual quest?
    Diana Helmuth: When is a good time to decide you want to try and become a witch? What happens? Crisis and the desire for something [00:08:00] interesting. I have two answers to this. The first is, I grew up in Northern California near a lot of the 1960s kind of hippie movement witchcraft started.
    Diana Helmuth: These were the people who took Wicca, and you have Starhawk with the Goddess Movement, and you have Oberon Zell-Ravenheart working with all these neopagan groups, and all of these folks are percolating, Zsuzsanna Budapest starts Dianic Wicca, and all of this is happening in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and I'm born in the 80s. When I grew up, kids in school weren't just reading Harry Potter, they were reading Harry Potter and learning tarot and reading each other's star signs, and a lot of them were reading Silver Ravenwolf and Scott Cunningham and were saying, "I'm a Wiccan. I am a witch. And this isn't a joke to me. This is actually serious."
    Diana Helmuth: I think I knew as many witches in high school as I knew Jewish people and actual Christians. And I think that is just very unique to where I grew up. I don't think most people in the country experience [00:09:00] that. So I knew witches growing up, and I thought it was interesting. I went to some rituals in high school, I dabbled, but I never really felt it in my bones in a very serious way. I never engaged with it in a very serious way. Like I also went to church with some of my friends and I think sermons were interesting and I didn't think Christianity was for me for a few different reasons. I always had a pleasant time when I went to church. I get the appeal. I saw the pull of inspiration and community and love that is at the root of a lot of religions that draws people in.
    Diana Helmuth: But why did I decide all of a sudden at 35 to start to become a witch? I had been dabbling with it for years again, and I actually had some friends, I had two friends who are characters in the book, Meg Elison and Lauren Parker, who are both witches and also authors themselves, and they've become [00:10:00] my mentors throughout the year. And I got in an argument with Lauren one night while Meg was in the room. It was over Zoom and we were arguing about astrology and I said to her, I just got really real.
    Diana Helmuth: And I said, "listen, astrology is bullshit. And it's bullshit because it is precisely antithetical to the goals of self empowerment that it peddles. It's like, how can you have this whole pseudoscience that is designed to get people in touch with who they are when it's entirely prescriptive and unchangeable based on when they were born? This is a crime."
    Diana Helmuth: And she, she's, "that's not what astrology is, you're being narrow minded, it's not that scriptive, it's a path to discover the self."
    Diana Helmuth: We were just buttheads and butting heads, and finally Meg intervened and she said, "do you know what the funniest thing in the world would be? Is if you got your chart professionally read and then tried to live it for a year and [00:11:00] saw what happened."
    Diana Helmuth: And then Lauren said, no, it'd be, I might have it backwards. One of them said, "you should try living astrologically for a year." And then the other one said, "no, you should just try being a witch for a year," because the astrology conversation, the fight had, was born out of me saying, "I don't think this is what the occult is about."
    Diana Helmuth: And Lauren said, "the fuck do you know the occult is about? Do you really know?"
    Diana Helmuth: So we were in this fight about the occult and she basically said, "what do you know?"
    Diana Helmuth: And I said, "nothing, but here's why I think too much of it is ironic. And I think too much of it encourages you to practice the opposite of what it is preaching."
    Diana Helmuth: And she said, "you should try living as a witch for a year, because I think this would be hilarious."
    Diana Helmuth: And I was looking for another book idea, and I pitched it to my agent. And she said, "oh, this sounds really funny. Okay. Yeah, do it."
    Diana Helmuth: And originally, it was supposed to be a comedy. Is not a comedy now. We were spoofing off of A. J. Jacobs' Year of Living Biblically. I'm [00:12:00] very honest with that. I used his journey as a foil for my own, and he's quite funny in that. He's very glib. I found it harder to stay as glib as the year went on. I think parts of it are very funny. I am told parts of it are extremely funny, but it is not a comedy. It quickly became not a comedy as the year went on.
    Sarah Jack: I could really relate to, I don't, wouldn't even call it sarcasm either, when you're having your experiences and you're talking, even at the beginning with just your intro, but when you're talking about the day that you're in and there's something funny about it, the way you present it is super relatable. Those moments where I think, okay, I'm either going to laugh right now or I'm going to cry. There's like some of that, like where you try to find the humor and just what could really be upsetting or frustrating. So I think you're really good at doing that.
    Diana Helmuth: Thank you. Yeah I think some of this stuff is just... It is funny. [00:13:00] It's not supposed to be funny, and that's precisely why it's hilarious. It's supposed to be very serious. This is religion. This is spirituality. We're tapping into divinity. We're invoking gods. This is intense. And then it gets so serious. It's like when someone looks you right in the eye. My mom does this to my niece all the time, especially when she's in a really cranky mood and she goes, "whatever you do, don't smile." And it's, she can't help it. She erupts and giggles. And that's started to feel every time I sat down and actually tried to be a serious witch.
    Diana Helmuth: And then quickly it was depressing, like I'm not doing it right. Cause I'm actually trying, really trying, I'm trying to do this right. And then, eventually, not to give the book away, but I don't want people to think this book is a dunkathon on witchcraft, because it isn't.
    Diana Helmuth: But some breakthroughs happen, and when they happen, they are actually ecstatic. And you are laughing, but you're laughing for a different reason. You're laughing because you're happy. You're laughing because you feel like you made it to the top of the [00:14:00] mountaintop, and you never understood before, and it's, yeah, that's pretty cool.
    Diana Helmuth: So I did want to talk about the honesty of the pitfalls of going on a spiritual journey, but there are also moments where I hope it's apparent that the rewards were savored.
    Josh Hutchinson: That definitely came across with your gratitude for those moments when things went more as expected. But you write, and I like that you're very honest about your experiences and when things weren't working, you talk about how it didn't work, but you kept going. So how did you manage to keep going through all the setbacks?
    Diana Helmuth: Ah, that's a great question. All completely honest, I think if I wasn't on a contract and getting paid to do this, I probably would have thrown in the towel three months earlier, which I am a creature who needs a lot of [00:15:00] accountability. I think witchcraft is an autodidact's dream religion.
    Diana Helmuth: You could argue if it's even a religion. Of course, a lot of people would say it's not. I'm not here to fight with them. It doesn't have to be, you don't want it to be. But for other people, it is. And I think that's fair, too. But the mentors are helpful. I think just sitting and reading your books, and this is something that happens to me throughout the year. I am alone. It is COVID. It wasn't supposed to be. We thought COVID was going to wrap up at the end of 2021. It sure didn't. So COVID basically became a character in the book. We changed the whole roadmap of what the year was going to look like.
    Diana Helmuth: I was supposed to go to all these events. I was supposed to do all these fun things, attend these festivals, attend these conventions. Very few of them actually happened. Most of the book is me in my house reading, talking to Lauren and Meg and interviewing some folks in the community, but for the most part, I am alone, which on the one hand, I think is a bad way to learn and on the other hand, I think reflects the experience [00:16:00] of most people who are dabbling in witchcraft now. So hopefully there is some relatability there.
    Diana Helmuth: But near the end of the year, I also do start to, as the world opens up, I start to reconnect with other witches and just things get solved for me so quickly. I have amazing conversations with people that are so educational and productive and healing, and I would say, again, the book's not prescriptive and I'm not going to teach anyone how to be a witch, but if you were going to dabble, I think like any major undertaking, it's good to have some accountability and some voices outside of your own head. Get a group, man, get a coven.
    Sarah Jack: And you really had a variety of voices in your story. I love that. The different conversations and encounters you're having and your inquiries. You're getting personal experience and opinion from the different individuals, and it feels like you're collecting, that you're [00:17:00] in the field collecting research and looking. I really enjoyed that piece of the journey, too.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah. We initially when I turned in the first chunk, my, one of my editors said, "this reads like a dissertation. Can you? Can you chill a little?"
    Diana Helmuth: And I was like, "I want to make it clear I did my homework."
    Diana Helmuth: And she was like, "remember, this is entertainment. No one is giving you a PhD at the end of this."
    Diana Helmuth: There's a long bibliography. I wanted to make it clear that I had endeavored to educate myself and present the education that was relevant and fascinating. But yeah, we did have to tone some of it down a little bit, but I'm glad that came through, some of that research came through. Really nice to hear, actually.
    Sarah Jack: My tie to witchcraft is the witch trial history, because I descend from two women that hanged in Salem, Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty. And then I had another family in my tree that stood trial, but they survived.
    Diana Helmuth: [00:18:00] I think it's really interesting that you descended from these women who were accused in this whirlwind of hate, basically, and then suffered and then died. I think it's interesting that both of you were, and something that I, in the book I talk about this, but I do go to Salem, and I'm bitter the whole time I'm there, and I, even though Salem is actually a lovely town, and everyone I met there was extremely nice, and the reason that I was a little bitter about it is because I thought it was, again, I thought it was a little bit ironic that this has become the home of modern witchcraft, because all of the women there who were accused of witchcraft wouldn't have said they were witches. So I think it's a little twisted and macabre to then build this celebration of this thing that they rejected, probably until their dying breath, basically. There's something a little [00:19:00] twisted about it. These women said they weren't witches. They were killed in a hate crime. And now we're here being like, "we're witches, yay." And we know they didn't sign up to be the symbols for this. When I bring this issue to Lauren, one of my mentors in the book, she says, "witchcraft needed a homeland and it was easy to put it there because, after 200 years, there's an evolution."
    Diana Helmuth: So maybe in the soil of Salem, there is some kind of reclamation about how at the end of the day, you end up back at square one when you're talking about the persecution of witches and the persecution of women because the women and, the man, but the women who were largely accused and harmed on the charge of witchcraft. Even if they weren't, you're really looking at a hate crime against women, and witchcraft is a lot about the liberation of women and female empowerment. So again, you end up back at square one, which I suppose is fair. [00:20:00] I'll give it that. It just always struck me as a little strange, but at this point, I think Salem is here to stay. I think it's only growing. I think the more people who think about neopaganism in general is a good thing. I don't think Salem should shut down tomorrow. I'm not advocating for that. I just think the building up of Salem into what it is today is a little bit of a funny story, but you know what, so is the existence of the United States. So what are you going to do?
    Josh Hutchinson: I think it's beautiful the way it's come like full circle. It built up this infamous reputation because of the witch trials and had this reputation as being an intolerant place. And now it's the scene of religious tolerance, tolerating the neopagan faiths, which certainly there's been a lot of intolerance towards that, so it's good that there's like a safe haven. Yeah.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah. I like that. I really like how you phrased that. I think [00:21:00] that's absolutely true.
    Sarah Jack: I think that the people who go to Salem are seeking empowerment. There's a lot of opportunity to learn the history, too, when you're there.
    Diana Helmuth: I went in the off season, it was actually quite lovely and the snow is very pretty, but everything was closed. I mean, when they say off season, they really mean off season. There was a museum we didn't even get to because they were just like, we don't open until April. I was like, Oh my bad. I came in February for Imbolc. I have heard during Halloween, it is probably depending on your personality type, a rowdy, vivacious, magnificent party or an absolute hellscape but I didn't manage to make it out there during Halloween, but it's quite pleasant in the off season if anyone ever wants to go, recommend it, actually, just make sure everything you want to see is actually open, but yeah, it was nice.
    Josh Hutchinson: One of the things that I liked about your approach to the book and to your experience is that you sought information from different traditions. [00:22:00] You didn't just say, I'm going to do Wicca by the book, or I'm going to focus on being a particular type of witch. So I thought it was very interesting that you have all these multiple perspectives coming in.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah that was the hardest part, actually, was the methodology. A. J. Jacobs has the Bible, which, granted, there's a lot of different versions, and how do you interpret? I'm not saying the Bible is like a clean path or anything, but it is a book. And witchcraft does not have an equivalent.
    Diana Helmuth: It does not have a pope. It does not have anything that formal or hierarchical, not really. So I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? Because I simply cannot read every book and every website and listen to every podcast episode. There's just so much content in this landscape and some of it contradicts itself and some of it is very old and some of it is very new and it's [00:23:00] hard to even know what qualifies sometimes.
    Diana Helmuth: So I looked up all the books with Wicca in the title or the subheading were the best sellers for the past hundred years. And I bought them all or the top 10 or 15 or something. And I said, "okay, this is it. This is my canon." That was the best methodology I could actually think of. And then of course, there's been in the United States, it's a growing trend in younger witches away from Wicca. Wicca I think is starting to be seen as a little bit stuffy, a little problematic, a little doddering, even though Wicca has absolutely permeated the American witchcraft landscape and largely, I would say, of the entire West. People throw in different flavors, but it's, you can't, Wicca is everywhere. I think people are accidentally doing it all the time, even when they think they're not. Oh, did you know that practice was borrowed from Wicca? They might not even know who Gerald Gardner is, but they're like doing stuff that he recommended in a book he wrote in the 1950s.
    Diana Helmuth: Granted, Gerald [00:24:00] Gardner took a lot of that stuff from older traditions. I'm not saying he invented them but I think that some people get really upset with Wicca. I'm not quite sure why. It gets a little, it gets a little funny to me because I think it comes out of a fear of religion and you can't be religious or you'll be stupid. It's everybody just breathe. I'm not saying Wicca's perfect, but I think there's a lot of good in it. And I think we should acknowledge how much it has influenced modern witchcraft.
    Diana Helmuth: But anyway, so I get to November and Meg says to me, Meg is a Gardnerian Wiccan. She tells me, "what are you doing with this reading list?"
    Diana Helmuth: And I say, "I wanted to stick to Wicca because it had structure and I felt like I needed structure and it seemed a little more just organized and considering how much of modern witchcraft is influenced by Wicca, it just seemed like an easier path."
    Diana Helmuth: And she was like, she just looked at me and she said, "you are keeping yourself in the dark with this reading list. Like you need to branch out now or you're [00:25:00] kidding yourself."
    Diana Helmuth: So I went back to the drawing board. She was right, of course. I went back to the drawing board and said, okay. So let's just focus on witchcraft. Wicca is small. Witchcraft is way bigger. Witchcraft is a spirituality. Wicca is a religion. And again, that can be debatable depending on the person. That's what I personally think. But I bought the top 10 to 15 books on witchcraft, and threw those into my cart, bought them all, and then started devouring them. And there were some interesting trends. There were some things that changed, but what's funny is most of the books that I bought, and this is why I say what I said earlier about how I think when people are practicing witchcraft and pretend it's so different from Wicca, unless they're doing something really specific like Hoodoo or Conjure or Voodoo they're, if they're doing like European defensive witchcraft, it probably has a [00:26:00] lot of Wicca in it because if they're reading these popular books, these top books that I read, every single one of them was written by a Wiccan. I thought I was going on this whole new magical journey and really, I was just basically hanging out in Wicca. The sole exception was Juliet Diaz's book Witchery. And she's written many books since, and Juliet Diaz, of course, is a bruja.
    Diana Helmuth: But there is even a lot of Wiccan flavor in her writing, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just there.
    Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like witchcraft, broadly speaking, offers something for every personality type. If you want the structure, you can choose the structure. If you want to practice independently, you can practice independently.
    Diana Helmuth: Gardnerian Wicca is very structured. It has a lot of rules. It has a lot of formality. It really follows in the tradition of someone who is seeking something, someone who is seeking religion. And by that, someone [00:27:00] who is seeking order and community and clean paths to connect with other humans and the divine together. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. You have to be initiated. It's secretive. I don't, I wouldn't necessarily call it a closed practice. Solitary Wiccans of course exists. Scott Cunningham wrote a beautiful book about it, because he said Wicca is too beautiful for people to continue to just have it be a, this closed door thing, and you have to know someone to get you in, and he was like, fuck that, I this should belong to everybody, I refer to him as the Bernie Sanders of witchcraft, you know, because he threw open the doors and was like, everybody get in here, we're not doing this anymore, come on, this is too good.
    Diana Helmuth: And I, I always, I will always love Scott Cunningham for that. Some of his writing is problematic. I like to think if he had lived longer, he would have gone back and corrected some things. But unfortunately, he died when he was very young, so he never got the chance.
    Diana Helmuth: Witchcraft, on the other hand, is [00:28:00] much more free form. Who decides if you're a witch or not? Unless you're part of some organized coven, which a lot of people are. There's so many witchcraft traditions, but a lot of people today are just eclectic, they're just picking up stuff online, things are resonating with them, and then they're following them, and I do think that's a good thing, also, because so much of modern witchcraft is essentially therapy and self empowerment in every sense of the word, and it is not just for women.
    Diana Helmuth: There is so much here for men. Like, whenever I meet a male witch, I'm like, good on you, king, holy shit, tell the brethren please we need so much, we need so many more of you. Yes, witchcraft is about women and women's empowerment, because it's usually women who are getting persecuted, if you look at the history books. But... Oh my god, there's so much here for every gender. I really just want every guy I know to get into witchcraft so badly. I think the world would be such an amazing place if that [00:29:00] happened.
    Diana Helmuth: But yeah, I, witchcraft is very open, it's very freeing, there are very few rules, and subsequently I think we just fight a lot about what is correct or not, but at the same time, they're all on the same team because we all just want to feel safe and connected, and we're all fighting for the same thing.
    Diana Helmuth: And I often talk about witches being truly the perfect example of sisterhood. You can be fighting with someone really viciously, and then 10 minutes later, like sharing Skittles with them. That, that is sisterhood, and a lot of witchcraft is like that, which I like. It's a safe place to spar ideas, knowing that you guys are ultimately on the same team as each other. I really like that about the witchcraft community and I think that's true even across traditions, like not just with European Wiccan style, but with, brujas and other sects. I really think there's this larger sense of we're all working towards the same goal. It's really beautiful.
    Sarah Jack: [00:30:00] I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you have such a bond and perspective with nature and our climate, and then of course witchcraft has so much nature in it. You have your own personal relationship with nature and then now this journey probably brought a new dimension.
    Diana Helmuth: Trying to be a witch for a year turned me into a rabid environmentalist. And I was always very left in my politics. I believe in climate change. I want politicians to help us reduce our carbon footprint. I believe in preserving the forests that I play in. And I think nature is a good thing and should be preserved. And the more nature we have, the better the planet will be and the better we will be with it, on it. But with that said, there was something about, I think, meditating on the interconnectedness of things, just [00:31:00] going outside and just staring at your garden for 20 minutes. Okay, you don't have a garden, maybe you live in an apartment. Okay, going outside and just like looking at the tree that's down the block from you, that boring ass tree. It like is a pathway to the universe. I know how insane that sounds.
    Diana Helmuth: There was something that happened during the year where I got almost eco anxiety, actually, because the earth is a sacred thing in witchcraft. And I was writing about that a lot and meditating on that a lot. And I started to have anxiety around buying things in plastic containers and everything I wanted to do to help protect the environment just felt so impotent. Oh, I can vote and recycle. Oh, what? No. That's nothing. I'm the smallest of drops in a very dry bucket and we need so much more than that.
    Diana Helmuth: Which in a way I think was a good thing. It motivated me to be more active in my political life in these efforts, but at the [00:32:00] same time, ultimately, it was very depressing because I think when we as individuals think about things as massive as climate change, it's very difficult not to get just horrifically depressed and especially with wildfires that are going on across the West Coast every year. I mean I weep over them. I really do. I take it very personally. These forests don't bounce back super fast. People say that they do, they don't. They will, but it doesn't happen in a year or two or three or five or even 10 in many cases. Yeah, I guess being a witch increased my eco anxiety.
    Diana Helmuth: Nature is beautiful and powerful, but also is not your friend. Nature is a process. You are a part of that process. That process is not always kind. Backpacking will teach you that very quickly. To romanticize nature is to put yourself in danger, and a lot of witchcraft does romanticize nature, but I think what I actually learned is that it [00:33:00] doesn't mean, witchcraft doesn't mean going outside and thinking that nothing's going to hurt you and that everything is for you and talking to you. I think it's more like going outside and realizing that everything is connected and you're a part of that connection. And wow, doesn't it feel so good to be part of something so big and to feel plugged in like that? That's more what it is, I think.
    Josh Hutchinson: The realization that you had during your journey when you realized hey, we're all the same atoms from the same distant stars and everything. We're made, literally made of the same stuff. So you know, that's just seemed like such a beautiful realization.
    Diana Helmuth: Thank you. Yeah. I am worried a lot of my atheist friends are going to read this book and think I am insane now, but that's just the risk you take when you go on a spiritual journey. [00:34:00] We'll just see how it shakes out. Hopefully, I'll still have friends.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. As one atheist here, opinion, I. I don't feel that way. I think what you did was great. And I have nothing but respect for that. And if I were to choose a religion, I think that something that valued nature would be what I would do. I'm a guy who once spent two years camping.
    Diana Helmuth: Two years.
    Josh Hutchinson: living among nature is. All around the country. I just drove campground to campground and I'd stay for a week or two and then go to another one. And then after a year and a half of doing that, I decided to spend the next half year doing a hike. So I started on the Pacific Crest Trail. And
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah. Wow. I want to read your book about the camping. Oh my god.
    Josh Hutchinson: Thank you.
    Diana Helmuth: that sounds, I bet you've had some pretty [00:35:00] intense realizations about that. Did you ever read Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey?
    Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
    Diana Helmuth: I'm actually in the middle of it right now, and he is articulating so much. When I was a teenager, I felt like I would go into nature and I would have these experiences that really felt like quasi spiritual and profound.
    Diana Helmuth: I didn't want to say the birds, it's not like the birds were talking to me. I just felt like I wanted to merge my atoms into the rock and become one with the rock. And wouldn't that be the best thing that could ever happen to anybody? And it was very romantic and very strong and very intense. And I don't know, it was probably just high on puberty hormones.
    Diana Helmuth: And I started to lose that as I got older and it honestly breaks my heart, but I'm reading Edward Abbey right now and he's articulating it. And he's this like salty old dude and I'm like, okay cool. If he can do it, I can get it back. Yes. Yes. It wasn't just puberty, man. It was real. It was real. So yeah I'm loving it so far. It's like changing my [00:36:00] life in a really good way.
    Josh Hutchinson: I had this one experience on the hike where I wasn't talking to birds, but the bees spoke to me, and I listened to them because bees tend to hang out around water sources.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah.
    Josh Hutchinson: Really, you realize that instantly thinking about bees, you think the hive and hanging from the tree and whatever, but they're down where the water is. And so they led me to water on two occasions. And
    Diana Helmuth: Thanks guys.
    Josh Hutchinson: I don't know, just listening to nature was very helpful for me.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah. It's connection to land is something I tried to talk about a lot in the book and very quickly back, it's tricky. If you're white, do you live in America? Tricky is a mild way of putting it. There was definitely a part of the year where I also really had to work through a lot of white guilt. And I was reading a lot. I was reading a lot of authors that were helping me [00:37:00] process guilt and hidden racism and what it means to be an ally and what land back really means and all of these things. And not the book. And initially I turned in 160,000 word manuscript. They wanted 80,000 and they were like, buddy, we don't have the ink for this.
    Diana Helmuth: And I was like, okay, so we cut a lot. But I do hope the sections of the book where I do write about that, they were really hard to write, because I was really afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I think there's an opportunity to do justice. And when you have that opportunity, you really don't want to fumble the ball.
    Diana Helmuth: But ultimately, I hope some of the things I did in the book inspire other people, especially white people to like inquire a little bit internally around their own possible repressions and ancestry and complicated feelings about where I belong in the world and what my ancestors did to get me here. [00:38:00] Obviously that's a very personal journey, but I do think the more we talk about it probably the better. Probably the better. And maybe even my own hesitance is just white fragility, but probably is still working through, but I think it's a good thing to try, because ultimately it's all for justice and justice is always a good thing at the end of the day and should feel good, not hard.
    Sarah Jack: We have an interview that's coming that we just had with a professor named Owen Davies. If you haven't read his book, America Bewitched, it's really good. It's so informative. And it really plainly shows that the trials ended, but the hunting increased, it continued. We don't have the story from 300 years ago and then, Oh, how did this keep, how come this is happening over in these 60 countries right now? America got it right [00:39:00] at some point. Maybe we got the legislation right and prosecution but it was still happening in communities, and he talks about how the mentality of witch fear within your family or within your community transferred over into, to indigenous cultures that were here. Their fear of witches was the outsider and it became the insider. And that's a tragedy.
    Diana Helmuth: If anyone asks me if I'm a witch, I will say who's asking and why? Because the word witch means so many different things. It could mean a girl upstairs in her room playing with crystals and journaling about her shadow, or it could mean a woman being burned to death in Nigeria. I'm thinking about Martina Itagbor, this happened like a month ago, right? She was burned, I think, semi alive in the street [00:40:00] because people accused her of being a witch. And the thing that drives me crazy, I have read so much about her story, is, I'm like, I don't, I don't think she was. I don't think she would have said she was. I don't think, I think she would have said she was a Christian. And then of course, there are Christian witches, there's folk Catholicism and all that jazz, so that the, sometimes that either even the same word in English drives me bonkers because here I am, this, this girl in the West Coast, like who grew up where everyone could be whoever they wanted.
    Diana Helmuth: And I'm writing a book about being a witch, and I feel pretty safe. There are some evangelicals who are going to come for me, and I'm a little nervous about them, but I'm not like, oh god, should I knock on wood if I say I'm not worried about being burned alive.
    Diana Helmuth: And then of course in history, it's just anyone who was practicing a religion that wasn't the colonizer's religion was a witch. Any power that was not the colonizer's power was a witch, and of course in America that was Christianity, right? Indigenous practices for witchcraft and, I don't know. I know you [00:41:00] know. I don't need to tell you this.
    Diana Helmuth: But that's also why I feel a little weird donning the name sometimes because I'm like, that's a lot to take on. It's a lot to compare myself to that doesn't feel entirely justified, which is why I think I feel more comfortable calling myself a neopagan because I am and I like neopaganism. I don't know if there is a more layered word in the English language. Maybe fuck. That's about it. It's witch and fuck. Those are the two most loaded words in English.
    Josh Hutchinson: I think that's such a good point about how you define witch really depends a lot on your own background and perspective and understanding of what a witch is. But there's so many different versions of the witch over the thousands of years that witches have existed. I bring it down to like intentionality.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah.
    Josh Hutchinson: The intentional [00:42:00] witch who wants to be practicing and is practicing. And then there's the like more reviled witch, that's the evil one who the actual person that's accused isn't usually practicing any magic or what they're doing is totally harmless, but they're being accused of harming somebody. It's put on people as a forced label, but then it's also available to embrace as a label, and that's, one of those is very disempowering and one is very empowering.
    Diana Helmuth: And that to me is how the witch becomes the symbol of female empowerment, because in many parts of the world today and in the past, a witch is a woman who has too much power and is displeasing, right? So then you have this group of feminists who are saying that's exactly what we're going to fucking be, man, and we're going to wield our will. It's all about willpower. The connection there, it's just, [00:43:00] then I did have a lot of moments when I was writing this book, like, wow, I'm so privileged that I can just casually talk about how I'm trying to be a witch and there are women in the world who are literally still getting murdered in the street because other people are accusing them of being witches and they're like, "bro, I'm not." I just feel like sometimes they should be different words, but I guess they're not because the root of it is misogyny.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    Diana Helmuth: Which is the collective struggle. There's probably a scholar who can articulate this a lot better than me, but I think we're under, we're all understanding each other, we're all understanding each other.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah. And our listeners can relate and they would like to jump in the conversation right now. I'm sure when they're listening to this, it's a conversation they want to have with people. So in its conversations, they can listeners, you can have these conversations. We, one of our very early episodes that we recorded. We're what's the [00:44:00] crew that is doing the Last Witch film documentary about one of the gals that was exonerated late from the Salem Witch Trial era. And that was such an interesting conversation. But one of the themes of that conversation that came out was having the conversations, have conversations with new people, with people with different backgrounds, and go talk to them and find your connections and see the humanity in each other.
    Diana Helmuth: I do love talking about this stuff. So I have, I'm on social media and stuff. If anyone wants to talk to me about this, if you are dabbling in witchcraft, I really like to hear from other people who are doing that. Because I, cause I genuinely think it's just fun to talk about this stuff. It's endless, it's boundless and it's important.
    Sarah Jack: I'm excited for your book to be in hands. I think it's something that people who would embark on such a journey will enjoy, [00:45:00] but I hope those who have someone in their life that is starting a similar journey could find encouragement and guidance in your book and not guidance in witchcraft, but guidance and understanding what a journey is like for somebody and supporting them.
    Diana Helmuth: That is also my hope. That is also my hope is that's what this book could be, not so much a guide, but more like a friend. Not Gandalf, but Sam. Or something like that. Yeah.
    Josh Hutchinson: It's not an instruction manual, but it's like a helping hand, a friend you can reach out to and support you while you're doing the same thing.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah. Hopefully, there's something that's relatable that will make you feel less stupid. If you ever did. Maybe you never did. But if you ever did, hopefully this book will just make you feel [00:46:00] like it's okay.
    Josh Hutchinson: The book's message is also one of just tolerance and mutual respect for each other. And you can differ about how you go about your spirituality or faith or religion, but humans are humans and we should respect each other.
    Diana Helmuth: Yes. That is something I think witchcraft will teach you very quickly is about tolerance and patience with yourself and with others. And the more tolerant you become of yourself, the more tolerant you become of others. The more patient you are with yourself, the more patient you can become of others.
    Diana Helmuth: I, again, I feel simply lucky, privileged, grateful that I grew up in an area where there was a lot of tolerance. It wasn't perfect. Definitely not for everyone, but I think compared to most parts of the world, it was extraordinarily tolerant. And [00:47:00] that I got to just do this there without fear of literally anybody killing me because I was doing something different, hopefully tolerance will increase.
    Josh Hutchinson: It was good for me, at least. I can only speak from my own experience, but reading it really answered my questions about what goes on in the practice. What's it like living that way? I just want everybody else to have that same kind of experience to realize this is an acceptable path.
    Josh Hutchinson: And I'd say for anybody who still has any reservations, maybe just from upbringing or your own religious background, if you have reservations about witchcraft, read this book and a lot of that'll be taken away. You clear up misconceptions. You talk about the value you're getting out of what you're [00:48:00] doing. So back to that tolerance thing again.
    Diana Helmuth: Yeah, it's normal. Well, depending on who you ask. Don Martin, who wrote The Dabbler's Guide to Witchcraft, I've heard him say this before on social media. He's, witchcraft really is mainstream at this point. Like it's not really what it was in the eighties and nineties. A lot of people are playing with this stuff now. It's just how deep you are in the water. And I think he's right.
    Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary.

    Mary Bingham: My heart breaks for men and women who suffer from Alzheimer's disease. It is cruel. In my dad's case. It has taken him from a vital, active, well-loved citizen of his community to a man who cannot remember to do what he needs to care for himself. Many, like my dad, live in a community where he will receive the quality care that he deserves so that [00:49:00] he can live out his remaining years with dignity. We, his family, love him and our mother. We are their number one advocates and will do anything to make sure the wonderful facility where they live continue to do their best. For our parents, we, on our part, do our best to educate ourselves on his disease for his sake and to be a listening presence for hers.
    Mary Bingham: However, unlike my dad, many in other communities have not received quality care. Here is a recent quote from our friend, Dr. Leo Igwe, director and founder of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and I quote, "family members abandon them and make them suffer painful and miserable deaths. Advocacy for Alleged Witches urges the public to stop these abuses and treat people with dementia with care and compassion," end quote.
    Mary Bingham: Sarah Jack says almost [00:50:00] every week in the following segment, End Witch Hunts News, that education is key. Spreading the word regarding ongoing witch hunts is also key. Please listen again to Dr. Leo Igwe in the episode "Deadly Witch Hunts of the 21st century" and Damon Leff in the episode "Witch Hunting in Modern South Africa." Then share these episodes on your social media channels. Visit our website, endwitchhunts.org, to discover how you can help to save a life.

    Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

    Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update.
    Sarah Jack: Advocacy for Alleged Witches has made a stand to help and rehabilitate elderly victims who have suffered from [00:51:00] violent witchcraft accusation attacks in Nigeria. Last year, hearts were shattered when Pa Justin was unjustly accused of witchcraft and subjected to a horrific act of violence. He was set a blaze in his own village in Nigeria. This month, Advocacy for Alleged Witches took a crucial step by accompanying Pa Justin back to his village. The community members asked Pa Justin to return.
    Sarah Jack: Quote, "this is an exercise in social experimentation. AFAW will be closely monitoring the case of Pa Justin for some insights for future use," end quote, Dr. Leo Igwe.
    Sarah Jack: AFAW advocates have also initiated an outreach and sensitization campaign within the community. AFAW is teaching that the elderly deserve dignity and care. Elderly members of society should be revered, cherished, and cared for, not unjustly accused of causing harm with witchcraft.
    Sarah Jack: Witchcraft harm accusations are a deeply rooted problem, not only in many African communities, but in [00:52:00] nations across the globe, leading to devastating consequences for innocent individuals like Pa Justin. Witchcraft and sorcery accusation violence advocacies represent many countries and have an unwavering commitment to End Witch Hunts. They are taking legal action, educating community members and leaders, rehabilitating victims, and addressing how victims and communities can move forward.
    Sarah Jack: Our organization, End Witch Hunts, also firmly believes that every individual and community can live free from fear and harm. We support advocacy organizations that are helping affected communities fight for justice against this gross violation of human rights through grassroots efforts. Please help spread awareness by talking to your circle of influence about modern witch hunt violence occurring across the globe. Please go to our show notes and see links to the advocacy groups that are actively working to stop the violence. Consider making a donation to AFAW, End Witch Hunts, or any of the advocacy groups listed in our show notes, and volunteer your voice to support their initiatives. Your conversations and [00:53:00] donations are making a significant difference in the lives of those affected by witchcraft accusations. Engage with local leaders and community members to advocate for policies and practices that protect the rights and dignity of vulnerable individuals like the elderly, widows, and children. Report suspicious cases. If you come across any incidents of witchcraft harm accusations, report them to the appropriate authorities and organizations like AFAW. Together, we can put an end to this injustice. Let us stand together, not just for Pa Justin but for all those who have suffered and continue to suffer due to witchcraft accusations.
    Sarah Jack: Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch [00:54:00] hunting behavior. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts. org to learn about the projects.
    Sarah Jack: To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Sign up today. Thank you for being a part of our work.

    Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    Sarah Jack: Join us again next week.
    Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    Sarah Jack: Find all of our episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell your friends about the show.
    Sarah Jack: We appreciate your support to end witch hunts, visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
    [00:55:00]
  • Irish Witch Trials with Andrew Sneddon

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    This episode on Irish witch trial history takes a close look at the 1711 mass witch trial in Islandmagee through an illuminating conversation with Dr. Andrew Sneddon of Ulster University. We discuss what took place and learn about why there may have been fewer witch trials in Ireland than in other countries during the early modern period. We cover critical aspects of the witchcraft accusations, like Demonic obsession and possession, and address  the similarities  between Islandmagee and witchcraft accusations in Salem, and other New England witch trials. Dr Sneddon and his colleagues have launched a historic multimedia Islandmagee witch trial history commemoration project that opens September 9 in Northern Ireland. Find out what you can experience in person and what is available to experience online.

    Dr. Andrew Sneddon

    Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project

    International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

    Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa

    Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

    Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

    The International Network

    Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:26] Sarah Jack: I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with Dr. Andrew Sneddon about witch hunts in Ireland.
    [00:00:34] Sarah Jack: This episode is full of Irish witch trial information.
    [00:00:40] Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn about the Islandmagee Witch Trials, Ireland's largest witch-hunt.
    [00:00:48] Sarah Jack: There were eight women imprisoned and one man, a father and husband, likely executed.
    [00:00:57] Josh Hutchinson: The victims were Janet Carson, Janet Latimer, Janet Main, Janet Miller, Margaret Mitchell, Catherine McCalmond, Janet Liston, and Elizabeth Sellor. And the man who likely was executed was William Sellor.
    [00:01:17] Sarah Jack: Dr. Sneddon and his colleagues have rolled out an exceptional exhibit with the Carrickfergus Museum that is hosting it September 9th through November 16th. 
    [00:01:33] Josh Hutchinson: This exhibit's got it all. It's got images, video, virtual reality, a video game, a graphic novel, an animation, and a play? It's got it all.
    [00:01:52] Sarah Jack: A historic play from 1948, couple years before The Crucible.
    [00:02:00] Josh Hutchinson: Before the Crucible, there was this play.
    [00:02:03] Sarah Jack: Witches in Eden,
    [00:02:05] Josh Hutchinson: Witches in Eden. Check it out.
    [00:02:09] Sarah Jack: The Ulster University Research Project was led by Dr. Helen Jackson, Dr. Victoria McCollum, and Dr. Andrew Sneddon. There's also a range of objects from the Carrickfergus Museum's own collection, plus loaned items from the National Museums Northern Ireland and the National Library of Ireland and Belfast Central Library.
    [00:02:30] Josh Hutchinson: Sounds exciting. Count me in.
    [00:02:32] Sarah Jack: It's amazing what is available on the website to be able to look at and learn and enjoy. But, getting to go in person. It's a historic presentation of witch trial history, so what an incredible opportunity. If you can go, you need to go.
    [00:02:52] Josh Hutchinson: You do. And for those of you who can't, w 1 7 1 1 .org, w1711.org, is the place to go to check that out. They've got videos you can watch and images to look at and history to read up on, including all of the transcripts of the trial records from the Islandmagee Witch-Hunt.
    [00:03:19] Sarah Jack: So spread the word. Let your people know that this is going on. Get them online looking. If they're in the area, send them over to go experience what's available.
    [00:03:31] Josh Hutchinson: Be there. 
    One thing you'll notice at the exhibit and in this episode is how similar the Islandmagee witch trials were to many of the other witch trials that we've heard about, including those at places like Salem. And there's this element of a possible diabolical possession, and we talk about how there's a fine, flexible line basically between possession and bewitchment, basically comes down to who the victim blames. Does the victim say that the devil is affecting them directly, or do they blame it on a witch?
    [00:04:24] Sarah Jack: And there's some great comparisons in the dialogue today, right out of the Salem history.
    [00:04:32] Josh Hutchinson: Out of Salem, out of Connecticut, out of so many places, there are these cases with afflicted persons behaving very similar to how people behave when they're possessed by the devil, according to the set down traditions that we have from this time period.
    [00:04:58] Sarah Jack: We are so happy to have Dr. Andrew Sneddon here today. He's the leading expert on the history of the Islandmagee Witch Trial of 1711 and has published widely on Irish witchcraft and magic. He has spent the last decade taking the untold story of the Islandmagee Witches and Irish witchcraft to a new, diverse, international audience. He has worked with numerous libraries, archives, museums, community, educational, and women's groups. He's the president of Ireland's oldest professional historical Society, Ulster Society for Irish Historical Studies. 
    [00:05:34] Josh Hutchinson: What sets the Irish Witch trials apart from others?
    [00:05:38] Andrew Sneddon: I think the lack of them, probably, you start with a negative, Irish witchcraft. There was only a handful of trials now in the early modern period. Now there's a lot more trials after, ironically, the witch legislation is repealed. And they're involving witch accusation at some level, but they're not witch trials per se. But during the early modern witch hunts there, there's very few of them.
    [00:06:07] Sarah Jack: The Witchcraft Act was enacted in 1586, but not repealed until 1821.
    [00:06:14] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. So it's actually a copy of the Elizabethan Act of 1563, which  I know that you've covered before, in other programs. This is part of the Elizabethan colonial rollout of legislation to, Uh, Ireland and did the roll out the Witchcraft Act as well. You're right, it's there right until the early 19th century. And it's almost, by that point, it rolls out of the imagination of the elites and it is just an administrative cleanup, I think Ian Bostridge said it was at one point, but that doesn't mean that popular witchcraft belief isn't everywhere, or that all elites don't believe in witchcraft anymore. But definitely of that legislative level after the Irish Parliament is away it's repealed.
    [00:07:05] Josh Hutchinson: Can you quantify how many witch trials there were in Ireland?
    [00:07:11] Andrew Sneddon: There was many accusations and formal accusations, but there were usually coming from Presbyterians and Presbyterians coming from Scotland with their own witchcraft place where, as you know, it was really bad. So they're coming after 1660, so most of them are not going to trial.
    So there's loads of accusations that we know of, and some of them get to court, but don't go anywhere. So there's actually only two trials, two main trials. There's some trials before the 1586 Act and obviously ones after it, but there's only two main, one of Florence Newton in Youghal in Cork in 1661 and Islandmagee Witches in County Antrim in what is now Northern Ireland in Ulster in 1711, and this is nine people. 
    We don't really know what happened to Florence Newton, if she was executed or not. Some people think there are, but the, I've transcribed the, all the documents. It doesn't tell you what happened to her. And we know that the eight Islandmagee witches were not executed and, the, they missed out that, just, a legal nicety and on the day of the trial, and they were imprisoned under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act for four times in the pillory on Market Day, as well. And the one male witch we think might have been executed
    [00:08:28] Sarah Jack: How do you think he would've been executed?
    [00:08:32] Andrew Sneddon: Well, do you remember what we were talking about, the rolling out of the Irish witchcraft legislation was just a rolling out of the English witchcraft legislation? Again, by 1600 the older Gaelic systems of law, the Brehon law and systems of legal prosecution are being replaced at a county level in the 32 counties, at least with the English system.
    So what you know about the English witch trials and how they were actually like governed, just put that in Ireland. So you've got justice of the peace, you've got magistrates, you've got the grand jury of 23 men. You've got the assize court. So all the things that are keeping witchcraft prosecution low in England, which it was quite hard to get somebody prosecuted for witchcraft in England, are operating in Ireland. So same legal administration, same courts, same law. And it's coming from Scottish Presbyterians. That's where the accusations are coming from. So it's very weird. It's a Catholic country with Presbyterians making the accusations, mainly that we know, and an English court system
    [00:09:45] Josh Hutchinson: So it's a jumble of three different sets of beliefs and rules and traditions. Four.
    [00:09:54] Andrew Sneddon: Four 'cause what we haven't talked about is a mass of the population. So you start getting Protestants coming in after the Reformation. Even before that Ireland has a colonial past from the 12th century, but they're in increasingly coming in after the 16th century and the plantation, and the people who are bringing them with them strong belief in witchcraft are usually coming from England.
    So if you go back to Youghal, that is a puritan settler English place. It's in Cork. And so you will see familiars, and you'll see swimming. You'll see tropes that are in English witchcraft there. And then if you go up north, if you go to Islandmagee, you will see more Presbyterian and tropes.
    But the fourth one is the mass of the population. The kind of, at this period, 80% of the population, they still Irish speaking, Irish Catholics, population and they are not making formal accusations. Now, in the past we would argue that it was because they didn't want to go to Protestant courts, but we found out that they did for other things, so they might have for witchcraft, it's still a permanent argument perhaps, but we've looked at, Ronald Hutton and myself, and we've looked at belief more, and we would suggest that they just, it's not that they didn't believe in witches. They just believed in a witch that was less threatening, that attacked agricultural produce, stole milk and butter.
    Now, you get this in Poland and places where they do execute witches, but the threat level is higher there, because they have a higher demonic input to them. There is no demonic input to these beliefs. These witches are women. They shapeshift into hares to steal milk, and you get that more in the folklore, or they use a sympathetic magic to transfer the goodness from their own crops to elsewhere.
    Now you will see this in Isle of Man, you'll see it in Wales, and you'll, as I said, you'll see in other countries. But when it starts to become a wee bit demonic or it becomes more of a problem, then that's when you start getting, I think, the prosecutions of witches. And you don't get that in Ireland, in this period, anyway. So the mass of the population have a low threat level of witchcraft. They have a witch figure, or it's nothing.
    [00:12:16] Josh Hutchinson: So the people accused of witchcraft, generally, they weren't killing children and causing people to be sick, that kind of thing?
    [00:12:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, I, and they weren't actually formally accusing them. They might have been doing it, probably don't know, because we just don't have their records. They're, they were an Irish speaking population, and we don't have, we don't know quite frankly. We know very little, we know about the beliefs usually transmitted through English, unfortunately, rather than, there is very little in Irish and it's mainly legal and political, and that has survived in manuscript form and nothing about witchcraft. It's usually transmitted through, as some people would say, the colonial gaze through English. 
    But let's go back to Islandmagee and let's get back to Youghal. What they're shared is, they're very similar, in fact, to Salem, the start of Salem. They're very similar to what you're getting in Lowland Scotland in the 1590s and the early 1700s. They are witchcraft trials involving demonic possession, where the main is demonic possession. Now, I know that there's controversy over whether there was demonic possession in Salem at the beginning, but definitely like the tropes are all there, the similarities, the fits, and the young people and blaming other people for that, blaming witches rather than blaming the devil himself, which would, indicate some sort of, sinfulness in their own parts. So they blame witches for their symptoms, so you get spectral evidence, although unlike Salem, it's not kicked out, it's the main one in Islandmagee, and it's the main one that's used in Youghal, as well, although witness testimony, as well. 
    And they actually in Islandmagee bring forth the vomited objects. That's why, we'll talk about it later, but that's why we've represented them in the VR. There's a material culture there. Yeah.
    [00:14:27] Josh Hutchinson: But the demonic was unusual for Ireland, even the type of possession that was occurring was that unusual?
    [00:14:36] Andrew Sneddon: It wasn't unusual given who it's happening to, so you're getting demonic possessions in the late 16th century and early 17th century in England. And then lo and behold, you'll see it in Cork in 1661 among the same people, the settler populations. And then you're seeing it increasingly in the north of Ireland in Ulster from the people who are coming from Scotland.
    I know that Brian Levack in a great book on witch-hunting in Scotland argued it was the Calvinist Network, the British Calvinist Network. 
    [00:15:09] Josh Hutchinson: Sarah and I were talking about demonic possession yesterday, and there was really like a fine line between what's demonic possession and what's bewitchment. So yeah, so sometimes hard to say.
    [00:15:27] Andrew Sneddon: It is hard to say in some circumstances, but you can see when they're talking about the devil made me roll about or the devil will not get me, and when they're in their fits or their convulsions, as well, when, you know, the witches are visiting them, is it that's what's causing the convulsion or is it the devil or? It's much more clear cut when you go to certain places in Europe, when you're getting whole convents are demonically possessed.
    But it is direct demonic possession, rather demonic possession via witchcraft. It starts to get a bit gray when you, when it's involving witchcraft, but I think in some clear cases that is clearly not your normal witch trial.
    [00:16:09] Josh Hutchinson: It's easy for things to get out of hand. You mentioned Salem and Islandmagee starts with this possession or affliction, and then you bring in the spectral evidence. It's really easy for things to start getting outta hand.
    [00:16:25] Andrew Sneddon: What I argue in my book, Possessed by the Devil, it was 2013, it was a long time ago I wrote. I'm writing a second edition as we speak, but what I suggested was what was key here. And especially when you're looking at 1711, within the grand scheme of things, it's a period of decline, perhaps not in belief, that's a tricky one, but definitely judicial skepticism and a drop in trials, different times, different places, different reasons, different rates of decline. We know that. But there definitely is trailing off. And what you need, a committed central actor. And again, Levack would argue they're following a cultural script here that's easy to learn. You need a central actor who's keeping it going all the way through that you can focus your attention on. 
    Now she is Mary Dunbar, she's 18. She's educated, she is visiting a family where there has been demonic obsession and the matriarch has died in suspicious circumstances. Now, she is as I said, educated, biblically sound. The male authors of the sources tell you that, at pains, that she's good looking and she's trustworthy and all this stuff, and they're always demoniacs, demonically-possessed people are always showing themselves to be paragons of virtue, and I think she does that.
    Contrast against the eight women that she accuses, first of all, who are tried at 31st of March, 1711. They are visually different. They're disabled. Two of them have lost an eye, one has fell on a fire and is burnt down one side, she has a crooked hand, one has, in the parlance of the time, a club foot. They're a small pox scarred. And the idea that everybody was small pox scarred, , I don't think is true when you read diaries at how people are affected by their visual change.
    So they'll look different, but they're also act different. They challenge patriarchal norms, they drink strong alcohol, wine, they smoke, they resist arrest. They don't follow the prosecution process. They try to evade it at every turn. And even when they have no idea what's going on at the trial, they still plead guilty and deny their innocence, right to, so there, there is resistance and there's agency, but these are marginal women. They're poor. They have dubious reputations. Some of them could have been practicing at some level popular magic. The contrast is really palpable between believable witches, marginalized people, and the believable accused. So they're believable witches and she's a believable witness. And it's a heady combination. 
    Then Mary Dunbar dies three weeks after the first trial. We don't know why. And it took me going through every newspaper in 1711 in Ireland, and I found it. And basically, yeah she died and, but she'd already been accusing a final witch, William Sellor. Janet Liston was his wife, and his daughter was Elizabeth Sellor. Basically, it went from a misdemeanor to a felony, because she had died in the time that she had accused him. And he went to trial in 1711. Like we do a lot of the time in Scottish trials, we are assuming that he was executed.
    [00:19:58] Josh Hutchinson: So the eight women, they're tried first, and then Mary Dunbar dies, and then William Sellor is tried with the enhanced charges?
    [00:20:08] Andrew Sneddon: Yes. And that's it. There is no more under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act. There's one, an interesting one, in 1807 where the person could have been prosecuted for witchcraft. Mary Butters, she's a cunning person. She's a magical practitioner or a service magician, if you want to use that parlance, and she tries to cure a bewitched cow, just like we were talking about there, and ends up killing everybody in the house. Her magic goes wrong and she kills them by carbon monoxide poisoning by burning sulfur in a house to where everything has been sealed up. 
    She could be done under the 1586 Irish Witchcraft Act, but isn't. And it just shows you there's no, at a judicial level, anyway, by that time to try people for witchcraft under the witchcraft act, so it's a dead letter in that sense. Doesn't mean belief has went anywhere.
    [00:21:06] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means, that she was a cunning woman? 
    [00:21:12] Andrew Sneddon: If you look at the main historians, but the parlance, maybe it's changing. Some people don't like cunning folk because it's, it is anglophone. But and I want to widen the, the parameters of it, but there are among many magical practitioners, and I'll no go through them all, there's so many different ones and the borders between them are very different. But a fortune teller, for example. But a cunning person, I would say, is a multifarious magical practitioner. That is somebody who's commercial who usually charges money or goods in kind and usually perform more than one magical service. Now, this can be thief detection. This can be a counter magic, which is bread and butter a lot of the time. And that means detecting, thwarting, or bringing witches to the authorities. But they also can do some magical healing using herbs or spells or whatever that is not caused by supernatural means, that are natural means. And there's some divination in there, as well, as I said, lost or stolen goods, but also thief detection and that sort of thing. So they're remarkably consistent, cunning folk, that particular type, I think, from the early modern period, right through in the modern period. And you get 'em all over Europe, and you get them in America as well, right up to the late 19th century, possibly beyond.
    [00:22:35] Josh Hutchinson: When people were accused of witchcraft in these few cases in Ireland, how were they tested?
    [00:22:45] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah, this is the thing, spectral evidence, by this time, they haven't used it after, I think, is it 1655 in England? And obviously, it's overturned in Salem and this is 1711 we're talking about. So they know there is ultimately question, so they, they do blind tests, almost pseudoscientific the, because a demonic possessed person will get worse when the person approaches them or touches them.
    And they actually did that in some trials. I think they did that in the Bury St. Edmonds, one in 1645 in England. And they get the person to touch them. That could be said, oh, they're just seeing the person that they want to get executed and acting up. So they get them and bring them in silently and get them to come in behind them so they can't see it. They also get a lineup. They bring 30 people, from everywhere, 30 women from everywhere and line them up. And she has to pick out the witch. She says she's never met them before. She only has met them when they attack her spectrally.
    [00:23:48] Josh Hutchinson: A lot of that sounds so familiar with Salem and other witch trials that we've talked about on the show before. In Salem, they did the touch test, the exact same thing. I wish they would've done a lineup, because that could have eliminated some of them who, the witnesses who were accusing didn't, like you said, they'd never met a lot of these people that they were naming beforehand, and so they would name somebody in some far off town and have no idea who they were when they saw them, except that they were the only one that was brought in. So by process of elimination, they're like, oh, that's Goody Sandwich or whoever it was.
    [00:24:39] Andrew Sneddon: The problem there is that Mary Dunbar says she had never met them before, but she's able to pick them out every single time. Every single time. 
    [00:24:47] Josh Hutchinson: So she knew them somehow? 
    [00:24:49] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I argue in the book that she's got an accomplice. 
    [00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. We know in some of the testimony in Salem, there's accounts given by like defense witnesses that say we heard that afflicted accuser ask somebody, "who is that lady who's up there, who's the prisoner at the bar?" And they would get information from the crowd. But yeah, she must have known somehow. You don't get a hundred percent right.
    [00:25:19] Andrew Sneddon: No, and you, the public spectacles. The house was absolutely full, and you could argue if it's demon possession case. It's a chance to see the devil in action. You are basically touching the other world through this person. And yeah, there's no tv, This is something that's happening in a community in a peninsula that is eight miles long with 300 people in it. You can see why everybody's interested in it. And you're right, there could be all sorts of things that, that are happening that are culturally transmitting this to her. The idea that is a cultural script, that she's actually following a script, but she's also reacting like every good actor to the audience.
    This is why I think their symptoms change in demonic possession cases. Now not all of symptoms are simulated. They can start off simulated and then become unsimulated. They can be suffering from some illness. Now, I couldn't, I went through all the types and I couldn't see, and they usually would bring this up at some point. And they did before in other occasions in Ireland, but they didn't, here. I think it was simulated to some extent in Mary Dunbar's case.
    [00:26:40] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I have some theories about that too, about how in Salem, at least, the afflicted persons, there might've been some illness, there might've been just a genuine fear that they were bewitched and like you alluded to, with the touch test, they get near the person that they think is afflicting them, they're gonna act out somehow just because the fear is gonna overwhelm them.
    [00:27:08] Andrew Sneddon: They know what's expected culturally, there's a cultural script. They know how to react in a demonic possession case. They know where it is and that's when, we've always tried to, I've tried to do is that the idea of these people live in a magical moral universe where spiritual essences are constantly interfering in your world, everybody believes that some sense, not everybody, but a lot of people, the accused and accusers would believe in witches and witchcraft and the possibility of demonic possession. But then again, you've got quite a lot to gain. We've talked about the forces, the patriarchal forces, that brought the eight women to the fore, those patriarchal forces were also constraining Mary Dunbar. She's in a tight, clerical family. She's not considered in Ireland an adult. Doesn't matter if she's 40 until she's married. Even then, I understand the agency, I understand resistance, and understand the ways that you can overturn patriarchy and the forces that cut through patriarchy, but it still limits your options. And so you could see it in that sense as well.
    It's a reaction against are very strict, gendered, patriarchal upbringing. You are able to swear in the minister, punch 'em, spit on them, rip up bibles, cavort, and roll about in beds with young men without any damage to your reputation. You can move from the margins of adult attention to the center stage of a drama of your own creation. Now, this is James Sharpe who put words to this and Philip Almond, when he was studying mainly English demonic possessions. But I think it's, I think it's a good explanation. I don't think it's total explanation in all demonic possessions, but I think it works here.
    [00:29:00] Josh Hutchinson: It works in so many cases that we've heard about of this kind of thing it's these young women who have the pressures to get married and be good Christians and good mothers and wives, and they're acting out against the system that's squeezed them into that role.
    [00:29:24] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. And so that's why, accuser and accused, and putting pejorative spins on both, I think is a mistake. I think you have to understand the situation they're in.
    A community itself is under pressure because the Presbyterians are being basically turned against, they, they help to defeat the the Catholic uprising and they help bring William of orange to power and then they're abandoned by the Church of Ireland.
    They're trying to shut down their schools. They're trying to enforce old laws. After 1704, they force 'em out of local government. So they feel that they're their whole raison d'etre is under threat. Their whole religion and religious freedom are under threat. And that's the Presbyterians in 1711. Now, you get economic downturn and then you get famine, and then they all go, like whole communities from where I'm sitting, just go to America. Just, we're talking a minister and 300 families, they just go to America.
    There's pressures there and communities under crisis. All these things make whatever problems you've got worse. We've all lived through covid. If you were having anything, any problems in Covid, the wider situation made them worse, and I definitely think you've gotta look at that when you're looking at Islandmagee, as well.
    [00:30:51] Josh Hutchinson: We've heard about this almost formula of this confluence of all these tensions that has to occur to put the pressure on the community so that they start seeing witches, things like the warfare and the crop failure and religious conflict.
    [00:31:13] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a whole load of things. Not all the time, but it's a whole load of things going wrong at the same time when you get a mass trial.
    And this is a mass trial, nine people. So it is.
    [00:31:26] Josh Hutchinson: Out of a community of 300, that's a lot of people. We've talked about the demonic possession. In Islandmagee, there's also a talk about a demonic boy. What can you tell us about that character?
    [00:31:42] Andrew Sneddon: He is part of the demonic obsession. It's like it's a precursor, it's where the demon, and you'll see it quite a lot of the time in Presbyterian Ulster, where they get the elders from the Presbyterian church and they get a minister to come and investigate instances of this, where a demon is basically wrecking the house. Fast forward 150 years and it's a poltergeist, but at this point it's demonic obsession, and the demonic boy seems to be at the core of this. And he a appears to old Mrs. Haltridge. Now old Mrs. Haltridge owns the house. She's the widow of a Presbyterian minister and that's where Mary Dunbar visits, 'cause she is the niece of Anne Haltridge. After that, she's died in mysterious circumstances and that's when it all kicks off. 
    The demonic boy visits old Mrs. Haltridge and threatens her and grabs a Turkey cock and tries to kill it with a sword and smashes windows. But do you remember I was talking an accomplice? One of the persons who see this is the servant, Margaret Spear, and she is around a lot when this happens before me comes and then she's around that when a lot it happens, 'cause this behavior continues. They only, I think, Mary Dunbar only sees the demonic boy, once or twice. Now the demonic boy is obviously, a demon and it's recognized sometimes it's called a spirit. And this is the popular imagination. Sometimes specters and demons, there's a porous boundary between them, they're always coming up against it. You've mentioned it already, the unstable meanings all the time when you're dealing with witchcraft. And I think that is definitely one of them. The demonic boy. He is dressed in black. He's got everything that tells you he's a demon.
    [00:33:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds like he was a little prankster or something to me.
    [00:33:48] Andrew Sneddon: Or it's fantasy.
    [00:33:50] Josh Hutchinson: Either one. 
    [00:33:51] Andrew Sneddon: The demonic body wasn't seen by many, but a lot of the witnesses saw the other stuff, right? So they saw a big bolster pillow about two foot high walk across the floor of the kitchen. They saw a petticoat just twirling. This is like horror movie stuff, twirling in the middle of the floor. You've got lithobolia everywhere, getting pelted with stones and other classic demonic obsession possession thing. Cats, there's some demonic cats in there. If you wanna see something similar, look at the trial of Jane Wenham in 1712, a year later in Hertfordshire loads of people have written loads of good stuff on it. But you can see some of the politicization happens in 1711 in Islandmagee, as well. You see it becoming a party political tool between whig and Torries, only it's reversed in Ireland. The Torries want to let the Islandmagee witches off, and the Presbyterians want to get her prosecuted.
    [00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have a couple of these stone throwing demon cases in New England, also. There's one we're looking at in Massachusetts right now, the Elizabeth Morse case, with her grandson that comes to live with her and then all the weird stuff starts happening with the bed moving in the night and stones coming in the chimney and all these things. So that sounds like it was the demonic obsession playbook.
     If you want to talk about the 19th century, what happens then as far as witchcraft accusations?
    [00:35:27] Andrew Sneddon: They don't end. I have argued elsewhere that witchcraft belief, there is people who publicly deny it and then what they do actually suggests that they do believe in it, right? So they say they don't believe in witches, but they will put up witch stones to protect their houses or they will maybe accuse somebody of witchcraft or they will not go somewhere or something, it'll affect their behavior. 
    And then there's people who say they believe in witchcraft and this and accuse people of witchcraft and follow through it even to the court, and you're getting this in the 19th century in Ireland. So by the late 19th century we were talking about kinda polarization between Gaelic Irish Catholic belief and Protestant settler belief. I think they come together in a kinda perfect storm. 
    So the Protestant belief, you get more of this kind of dairy stealing seeping into that. And you can see it even when it goes to some, go to the church courts, the Presbyterian church courts. You can see it by the late 1700s and again, I think on the other side, Gaelic Irish communities, what you'll see is by the 19th century definitely is witches can harm human beings more. And itself, the act of, especially after the famine in the 1640s that stealing produce and in rural areas becomes a bigger problem and something, especially among the communities where these accusations are happening. 
    So people are accusing, again, accusing their neighbors, usually co-religionists. There's usually not Catholic v Protestant, it's usually Catholic against Catholic, and they're accusing them of killing cows, stealing butter, stealing, even transforming into hare, sometimes, but usually just stealing butter, using the evil eye on their cows, using charms, buried on their land, things like that, and they're accusing each other, but they can't really take them to court because after 1821, there's no act to do it by, and whether they want to anyway, but what they take things into their own hands, so you'll get accusers just like in England and just like in 19th century America accusers grabbing them and swimming them and, you know, beating them up. But in Ireland, it's usually rather than mobs doing it as an England, in some places in America in the 19th century, in Ireland, it's usually individuals.
    So what you'll do is you'll think somebody has been stealing the milk produce from your cows using sympathetic magic. And you'll get cases where they shoot them, they hit them with shovels, they hit them with reaping hooks. There's one murder. And Will Pooley again is doing some brilliant work in France showing that this is happening in France as well.
     And so you're getting accusers taking it out that way, but they're also using the lower courts that are rolled out after 1840s, the petty sessions. And so what they're doing is they can't prosecute somebody for magically stealing their milk or their butter or killing the cow, but what they can do is they can do them for theft. They're, you know what they think they've magically stole their milk, but they're just doing them for theft. 
    The people who are accused are also using the law to accuse their accusers of slander. And sometimes they're finding themselves in hot water, because what they're doing is reacting to the accusation by beating up the accuser. So they're doing the same thing and or slander in the accuser, so you're getting flooded after 1840s up to the end of the 19th century of these accusations, usually in lower courts, but sometimes they go to the higher courts, like the quarter sessions or the assizes when some serious, when they're slashing people, and it's not just like a factional violence, this is violence it targeted to, against something you think has bewitched you or the other way around. And so you're getting that right up until the end of the 19th century. I think that the last one that I came across, it tails off in the 20th century, and the last one's in 1946. The last big one is 1927, so it's tailing off definitely in the 20th century. Courts are just turning their backs, especially when the island of Ireland separates into Northern Ireland and the Republic in 1921, but the belief's still there and you're still getting it in rural areas right up to the end of the 20th century, belief, especially in witches who can harm cattle or steal produce and occasionally harm humans.
    [00:40:15] Josh Hutchinson: 1927, huh?
    [00:40:18] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And you'll see as well, if you look at the material culture, if you look at some of the objects that survive, and this is a real one, a witch stone, hag stone. You'll see these in museums in Northern Ireland and they're hung in buyers or sometimes wee ones around the necks of the cows to protect them.
    So they, they do take it seriously. They're used against fairies sometimes, as well, and also, yeah, I think it's important to look at doubt and to look at saying one thing and doing another. But I think it's very important to understand as well, in the Irish context, at least, people are believing in witches, they're frightened of them, and they're doing something about it for a good party in the 19th century.
    [00:41:00] Sarah Jack: I don't understand, like that's less than a hundred years ago. How did so many of us forget and we don't understand what these protective things are just a century later? How did that happen?
    [00:41:17] Andrew Sneddon: Just like cultural memory and social memory, there is a great book by Guy Beiner called Social Forgetting. And I've argued in a book in 2022 called Representing Magic that you've got all this kind of popular belief, right? But the books and sermons written by male elites are saying they're using enlightenment rhetoric. They're in the 19th century. 
    But the idea that we are enlightened elites. We are enlightened. This land's enlightened. We are moved beyond the ignorance and the bigotry of the witch hunts. Look how great we are, and they use it as an example to place distance between them and themselves. And it's easier in, in Ireland 'cause there's so few of them anyway, it's the same rhetoric you'll see in England and you'll see in North America as well. 
    The historians will talk about historic witch trials in the 19th century and the antiquarians, and completely ignore the fact that all this is happening around them. And you'll see it in the cultural representations, as well. Ian Bostridge and Owen Davies were saying that witchcraft is history, basically. And it's the same thing. It's, it is when you deal with witchcraft, you deal with the historic example. So when the 19th century, they love talking about Islandmagee, they love talking about Youghal. They don't discuss the fact it's happening all around them. And what they also do, they, and invest it with gender ed language as well. By the 19th century, the end of the 19th century, is weaponized by the newspapers. And so what they start talking about, again, some of the same newspapers as reporting the crimes at another part of the newspaper are saying, "oh, there is some belief, but we're past that." But still, it is still there.
    And the historians, as well. And the newspapers are gendering it just as female. Now as we, we saw 1711, there was a male witch, but also in the 19th century, a lot of these people who are accused are actually male, as well. I think it's something like 40%. I can't remember the figures off top of my head, but I think Will Pooley's finding this in France as well, that there's a far greater proportion of men, so their gendering it as female. They're just saying it is something that's passed and that has been reproduced in newspapers and then it's been reproduced in culture and poetry and paintings and drama. And I think that's where it is, and you'll find that in Ireland. 
    And you know what they'll say why are you doing witchcraft? And I was told by hundreds of people, even historians, what are you doing, because there wasn't any in Ireland. I think part of that is a problem that it was remembered at a local level 'cause people in Islandmagee for two centuries after it remembered it, but there's a discursive silence around it as well.
    When we are saying about this kind of, almost discursive silence, that's, if you're looking at kinda official sources, you're looking at sermons, you're looking at male elites. But if you take on board folklore and material culture, if you go beyond the kind of, you don't know, almost the official to the vernacular, whether it is in Irish or English, if you go to the folklore, then you will find, I think this more and more, and that's where I have went as well to learn about witchcraft. And it's something that Guy Beiner argues as well, that when he was talking about the 1798 rebellion it's forgotten in certain spheres, but kept alive in others in different ways, in, in different contexts. And I think it, it works for the Islandmagee trial as well.
    [00:45:00] Josh Hutchinson: Talking about the material culture, what were some other forms of protective magic that might have been employed?
    [00:45:08] Andrew Sneddon: The big thing you know, would be, especially, and in Ireland would be protecting the churn. So you would put hot embers into the churn when you're churning. You would maybe have something roundabout the churn. You would make sure that people didn't say things or do things, you wouldn't have anybody looking at the churn. With children as well you have a lot of, especially when they were young, a lot of rituals and sometimes objects used to protect against witchcraft. 
    But just like in everywhere else, you get written charms are held close to the body, especially in soldiers. You get personal amulets all those sorts of protective magic. And you get, it's used in Islandmagee, as well. She first goes to a Catholic priest who, she's a Presbyterian, but it just shows you the cross boundaries of popular magic, because he's meant to have the best charm. So she goes to him, it doesn't work, and then she goes to a Scottish man, and he has one that works, but it makes her worse. So they cut it off, and it's a magical string that she uses , but they also use herbs as well. Especially this is something that's probably argued more by Ronald Hutton. He would say that witchcraft belief wasn't taken up as much because the Gaelic Irish believed in fairies and a lot of the things that fairies did were blamed on witches but use a lot of vervain and other plants were used, foxglove, all the kind of stuff, and mountain ash as well. You all the ones you see elsewhere would be used either to cure or as protection, but they're limitless. I could go all day on the different types.
    [00:46:50] Josh Hutchinson: The commemorative project and exhibition, can you just explain that in a nutshell to begin with?
    [00:46:57] Andrew Sneddon: This is a commemorative an a memorialization. The first plaque to Islandmagee Witches was erected this year. That was something outside the project, something we were involved in, but something that was outside this project. No. And we have taken it forward with this exhibition.
    It's the first exhibition of an Irish witchcraft trial. And it's happening here. As far as I know, it's the first one. And it comes out of a project called the Islandmagee Witches a creative and digital project. The website is, and I'm sure you can put it up in yours, w1711.org, and all the outputs are there.
    And what we wanted to do was to take this to another level. I have a practitioner of public history. I've done TV and podcast, but it mainly radio and TV and talks. And I took it all after it broke in 2013. I took this everywhere. I was talking about it a lot. This is creative collaboration of public history where the historian is actually helping to create a history as well.
    So the outputs are that, so we are wrote with a local graphic artist from Derry, Londonderry, a graphic novel about the trial. We also wrote with it, the project I'll say is led by me and Dr. Victoria McCollum, but it involves a whole load of people from Ulster University as well, and a lot of funding from Connected and AHRC and things like that.
    But the VR was with Dr. Helen Jackson. And that makes you become demonically possessed. And we're trying to get across what it's like to be demonically possessed, but also what it's like to be accused in a kind of way to deal with intangible cultural heritage in a very immediate and immersive environment and let people engage with the story that might not otherwise engage with it.
    So the VR there, but we've also got a prototype of a video game. Again, it's a kind of serious video game where you go into the shoes of the accuser. And it's just trying understand the moral choices and why people accused, not just to understand the accused, but understand the accuser and why these things happen. So that's the video game. 
    And then there's a bespoke animation. We got a local all women animation studio in Belfast to create a 14 minute animation, which I scripted on it. And that is actually in the VR app, but I think you can access that through the website, as well. And the graphic novel, as well. And we got local people, and we got staff and students Adam Melvin and Brian Coyle and Sabrina Minter. They were working on the computer game. And Adam was working on the score, so he has come up with an original score for the VR.
    Lastly no, we're doing a lot of workshops as well. So we're doing creative writing workshops, we're doing printing workshops, but we're also putting on a play called Witches in Eden. And this is produced by Dr. Lisa Fitzpatrick, Ulster University, Victoria and myself.
    And it's involving staff and students, and Witches in Eden was written in 1948, just before The Crucible, and it actually contains a lot of the tropes of The Crucible, by Olga Fielden, who was a Belfast based playwright. And it's never been put on since I think 1951. And I wrote about that in Representing Magic, the 22 book, as a kind of idea of exploring the cultural representations and the afterlife of the Islandmagee trial. But, Victoria had a great idea. Why don't we put it on and, so it'll be on, in the Riverside Theatre at the end of October in Coleraine in Northern Ireland. The exhibition is in Carrickfergus, and that is on the ninth, and it runs to the 16th of November, 2023. There's a big launch in the 16th.
    The great thing about it, so the exhibition space right, is across the road from where the trial happened. Touching distance.
    [00:51:10] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. 
    Wow. 
    [00:51:13] Andrew Sneddon: So, yeah. And you can see more about it on the website. We're working with other people who work in memorialization, as well, the University of Highland and Island working with RAGI and other people who, who have worked on, how to memorialize in different ways, not just through plaques, but through digital and creative technologies and storytelling.
    [00:51:34] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a creative way to present the story to this generation of people. Use all the technology that's available and it's like you've covered every form of media that you can, basically.
    [00:51:53] Andrew Sneddon: It is been quite thorough, but it was organic. We didn't go right. We're doing everything right,
    [00:51:57] Josh Hutchinson: yeah,
    [00:51:58] Andrew Sneddon: but, but we work in a university with such talented people like Brian and Adam and Sabrina and Victoria and Helen and Shannon Devlin and the history department, as well, and Lisa Fitzpatrick, all these people who are so good at what they do. And if they come together and we work as a team, it's amazing what you can achieve.
    [00:52:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm hoping it serves as an example for other locations where there were witch trials.
    [00:52:25] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And so you don't go down the Disney World of war, aspect, you know that some places are, over commercialization, certain that with respect, and the historical aspects we respect as well, that there were real people with descendants that are still around.
    [00:52:44] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Speaking of the commercialization, you were recently in Salem actually, weren't you?
    [00:52:51] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. I've been before and to be honest, the first time I went I was more kinda whoa than the second time, yeah, I was doing a kind of tour, so we went, Victoria and I went Steilneset Monument, monument in Vardo in Norway in winter, which was mad at the Arctic in winter.
    [00:53:12] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
    [00:53:13] Andrew Sneddon: and that was absolutely beautiful and, in the snow and in it, so well done, just look it up if you don't know about it, is to 91 people executed in that region, Finnmark in the 17th century, mostly women, some indigenous people as well, and then going to Salem as well, where the history, you've got the kinda big set pieces of the memorialization, but the history otherwise is fighting to get out.
    [00:53:45] Sarah Jack: Yeah. 
    [00:53:46] Andrew Sneddon: So you're, you are looking for the history, and I love them in memorials. And I and I like the most recent one, is it 2016? That was erected. I didn't see that the first time I went, but I've seen that and I think the all got their, the all get their they're good points.
    I do think the memorialization is very good and I do like them, and they're very important, especially in that context, you've got a statue to Samantha from Bewitched.
    [00:54:13] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yes. There's a statue of her, just like a block or two away from the first memorial to the witch trial victims. Yeah, it's interesting juxtaposition there, the history and the modern.
    [00:54:31] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. That's why I haven't tried, a disentangle, and we just discussed it there, the kind of, what happened and the way it's been represented and the way it's used, and I think that you can be creative with it. And I think you can, I don't think you, you can, you have to say the historians just know the the story because we've read the documents, now on the website, I've put every document for the Islandmagee trial. I've digitized them. They're all there for you. But it's more than that. And we've included them in the exhibition as well. 
    But it's more than that, and that's why we've got the workshops, the storytelling, and the printmaking. People can make their own histories, and we shouldn't try to have ownership completely as historians of these stories. So that is not what I'm saying. I'm just saying sometimes the representations that you know are not all positive, and and the commercialization aspect that are not all positive.
    [00:55:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, but a lot of those attractions, they do get people's attention. It's just somebody has to come in and say, set the record straight at some point.
    [00:55:40] Andrew Sneddon: The thing is as well, what happens is what, 2,500 executing Scottish history and 38 in American history, but most popular consciousness would say, what's the big witch trial? What do they think of Salem And that, I was talking to somebody the other day when we were actually launching something and yeah, they were absolutely gobsmacked. And I says, yeah, there was more people executed in one car park in Perth in Scotland than the whole of Salem. And that has only been righted now in the last two years with this new kind of campaign. And for the, I didn't, I'm Scottish I'm from Glasgow. I did not hear of any of this growing up. I didn't know there was any witches in Scotland. But I think that's changing as well. That kind of, and then that's the power of representation. That's the power of cultural representation and what a leaves out and what puts in.
    [00:56:32] Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable that you can grow up and not hear about these things. And there were just so many in Scotland. We hear that from people in places like Connecticut in the US where there were witch trials and people just don't know that they happened. You grow up, you go to school there, and they never talk about it. But for a whole nation like Scotland to just turn its back on the memory. That's really something.
    [00:57:03] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. Again, forgetting, so it's we're putting it behind us. It was a bad time. We were one of the first enlightened countries in Europe. We were the home of moral philosophers and Adam Smith, Glasgow University, and Edinburgh University, and St. Andrews. We're not all about witches. The people who were writing history in the 20th century perhaps, no interest in that either, 'cause it's ordinary people.
    [00:57:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we saw that with Connecticut. A lot of the antiquarians in the 19th century wanted to show the state in a good light, and so they would poke fun at Massachusetts and say that we never had anything like that here. They did.
    [00:57:47] Andrew Sneddon: That's exactly what was happening in Ireland, yeah. Putting distance between I, Owen and Davis does it brilliantly in America Bewitched, is putting distance between, the past and ourselves, and using it as an oppositional tool regionally, as well. look at.
    [00:58:00] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. They did that in the States with Salem before the American Civil War. The southern states were poking fun at the northern states for having witch trials. And yeah, you just use it as this political thing later on, and then today, of course witch-hunt has become just a real political metaphor that's used, I would say way too often. 
    [00:58:30] Andrew Sneddon: You've had Marion Gibson on talking, and she brilliantly showed the kind of misogynistic aspects of The Crucible. And arguably, the Crucible brought forth that idea of the witch-hunt as politic, getting rid of your rivals, and it's used a lot of the times, I think, misogynistically today by men who you know are accused, of all sorts, but accusing his accusers using that, which is doubly insulting, I, I don't like modern appropriation of the word witch-hunt, because as your whole podcast shows, it's so complex even to appropriate it at all. It's so reductive. But to appropriate it in that way is particularly bad, I think.
    [00:59:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And there's still people dying in literal witch hunts. And then you're gonna use that as a political thing and say, no, I'm a victim here. You're not.
    [00:59:26] Andrew Sneddon: Yeah. And it's usually the worst type of people who are using it.
    [00:59:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes,
    [00:59:30] Andrew Sneddon: I'm.
    [00:59:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. The ones who are guilty as sin. Yeah. 
    So I definitely encourage everybody to go check out that exhibit. I really wish that I could be there to see it myself. It sounds amazing. So many different aspects coming together to really immerse people in this. 
    [00:59:56] Andrew Sneddon: Absolutely.
    [00:59:57] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:00:07] Mary Bingham: For me, the most important reason to memorialize is to remember. We memorialize a loved one or an event through the preservation of memories, perhaps sharing stories, looking at a scrapbook, listening to a compilation of that person's favorite music, erecting a burial monument. Creating a celebration of life ceremony.
    No matter what we do to memorialize a person, group, or people and or event, we keep their legacy alive. When I first started to roam Essex County in search of my ancestors, I looked for their burial sites to visit their graves, to pay my respects, and to thank them for their decisions which caused me to be alive today. I still do that from time to time. Then they wanted to find where they lived, how they lived, where they walked, discover their experiences, funny, odd, different, wonderful, and sad. It was during this part of my journey, which led me to stand where some of my ancestors were hanged to death in the area of Proctor's ledge at Salem Mass in British America, 1692. A simple, beautiful, and important memorial was built and dedicated at that site on July 19th, 2017, so that the area would no longer be lost to history.
    Now, descendants can visit from time to time to pay their respects. Another beautiful memorial was dedicated 25 years prior to Proctor's ledge in 1992, and is located in Salem abutting the Charter Street Cemetery. 20 beautiful stone benches are attached to a stone wall lined with beautiful trees and historic homes for descendants and many visitors to sit and contemplate the lives of those whose names are engraved on each of those benches who were executed in 1692.
    However, my favorite memorial to the victims at Salem is the monument that was also erected in 1992 and is located on Hobart Street in current day Danvers, Mass. The beautiful life-sized stone monument is in two parts. The front displays the Book of Life with a replica of the iron shackles that accused would have worn while in prison. The back displays the Puritan Minister. The one thing that stands out is that this is the only monument that lists the 25 names of the people who died as a result of the Salem Witch Hunts that year, the 20 that were executed and the five who died in jail. Not only that, but also engraved are the powerful statements that the accused said during their pretrial examinations. It is a wonderful way to contemplate their lives, offer a glimpse into their horrifying experience, and share lessons on how we can learn from history. 
    And here are all their names. Infant daughter of Sarah Good died in prison before June. Sarah Osborne died in the Boston Prison May 10th, Bridget Bishop hanged June 10th, Roger Toothaker died in the Boston Prison June 16th, Sarah Good hanged July 19th, Susanna Martin hanged july 19th. Elizabeth Howe hanged July 19th. Sarah Wildes hanged july 19th. Rebecca Nurse hanged July 19th. George Burroughs hanged August 19th. George Jacobs, Sr. hanged August 19th. Martha Carrier hanged August 19th. John Proctor hanged August 19th. John Willard hanged August 19th. Giles Corey died under torture September 19th. Martha Corey hanged september 22nd. Mary Esty hanged September 22nd, Mary Parker hanged September 22nd, Alice Parker hanged September 22nd, Ann Pudeator hanged September 22nd, Wilmot Redd hanged September 22nd, Margaret Scott hanged september 22nd, Samuel Wardwell hanged September 22nd, Ann Foster died in prison December 3rd. Lydia Dustin died in prison March 10th, 1693. Rest in peace. You'll never be forgotten. 
    May those who suffered a similar fate at Ireland in 1711 also rest in peace. Thank you. 
     
    [01:05:08] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:05:10] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:05:20] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Witch-hunt memorials and commemorations serve as enduring tangible reminders. They provide comfort and solace and education. We can touch the cool, solid surface of a monument like we are reaching out and connecting with witch trial victims of the past, even though they're no longer physically present. Tributes like historical fiction, coffees named in honor of a witch trial victim, stone and metal monuments, and arts that teach and commemorate, like Salem by Ballet Des Moines, the play Prick, the play The Last Night, the play Saltonstall's Trial, the play Witches in Eden, the Echoes of the Witch photographic documentary, and multimedia museum and online exhibits like w1711.org, are a lasting witness of the impact these lives had on the world. You can listen to previous episodes to learn more about each of these projects. I hope the w1711.org project brings you to reflection, contemplation, and advocacy action. 
    September brings cooler temperatures, crisp, warm colors in nature, and a season of anticipated festivities, like fall festivals that hold meaningful rituals, well-planned get togethers and individual and group celebrations across the earth.
    We are moving into the final quarter of the year and considering and planning for what lies ahead after December. What lies ahead for thousands of vulnerable world citizens is experiencing unjust violence due to excited sorcery accusations inside their communities. When individuals are branded as a witch and blamed for causing harm with witchcraft, their actual safety and life is in danger, and it often comes at the hand of their own families and neighbors. Please learn more about the advocacy that is happening around the world by going to our show notes and finding links to advocacy groups. 
    Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy through our various projects. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work. 
     
    [01:08:07] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:08:09] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:08:11] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:08:15] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
    [01:08:17] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:08:20] Sarah Jack: See what's going on at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:08:23] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends and family and everyone that you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
    [01:08:31] Sarah Jack: Support the global efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
    
  • Witch-Hunting in India with Dr Govind Kelkar

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    This conversation is our podcast’s first inquiry about witch hunting in the nation of India. Our guest, Govind Kelkar, holds a PhD in Political Economy of China and is Professor and Executive Director for GenDev Centre for Research and Innovation in India. She has authored 16 books and numerous scholarly publications. This episode introduces us to the impact of witch-hunting on indigenous societies, women, and about variations between matrilineal and patrilineal cultures within the broader patriarchy in India.

    We ask: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches? 

    International Alliance to End Witch Hunts

    Culture, Capital and Witch Hunts in Assam, by Govind Kelkar & Aparajita Sharma

    Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Meghalaya and Nagaland

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:27] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:29] Josh Hutchinson: We are so excited to bring you this interview with Dr. Govind Kelkar about witch hunting in India. This is our first time visiting that country on the podcast, and we're going to learn about some of the concepts and different occult roles that are available either by choice or by other people's labeling. It's not just about witches and sorcerers, there are also healers and diviners, and we learn about tiger people and snake keepers and all kinds of interesting stuff.
    [00:01:23] Sarah Jack: A lot of what we learned today comes out of the academic study that she did on communities in two northeast Indian states.
    [00:01:32] Josh Hutchinson: She focused on indigenous communities and studied both matrilineal and patrilineal cultures. 
    [00:01:43] Sarah Jack: Enjoy this discussion today and also take time to pull this study up to read it for yourself. We will have this specific research linked in our show notes, and you need to read it as a follow up.
    [00:02:01] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we hear straight from an expert who's been working in this field of study in India for 25 years and has a lot of field experience, as well as professorial experience. Just done a lot of hands-on research in communities that are affected by witch hunting.
    And another important aspect that we discuss with Dr. Kelkar is how to go about ending witch hunting in India. So she talks about the roles of healthcare and education and things like that to help alleviate the crisis. 
    [00:02:58] Sarah Jack: Dr. Govind Kelkar holds a PhD in political economy of China. She's a professor and executive director for GenDev Center for Research and Innovation in India. She has authored 16 books and numerous scholarly publications. She has recently completed two co-authored studies: "Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Assam" and "Witch Hunts, Culture, Patriarchy, and Structural Transformation." She has previously taught at Delhi University, the Indian Institute of Technology, Mumbai, and the Asian Institute of Technology, Bangkok, Thailand. There she founded the graduate program in gender development studies and also the Gender, Technology, and Development Journal, published by Sage and now by Routledge, India.
    [00:03:47] Josh Hutchinson: So this is our first time for our listeners to visit India. What should our listeners know about the situation with witch hunting in India?
    [00:03:59] Govind Kelkar: There is a general kind of ignorance about the witches. Once in a while, the article, a newspaper article appears, and from particular indigenous areas, and this practice does exist in rural areas also, but it generally it is ignored. Oh, this is their practice. So othering of the problem is one thing, and second is that it is forgotten, as if it doesn't exist. So this is generally kind of thing. And whenever there is a presentation I have made in Council for Social Development, where I'm affiliated, then or any other organization and they think, oh, this is not a general problem, this is only confined to indigenous people, which is very painful. We have quite a sizeable number of indigenous people, but it is very painful to know this kind of attitude.
    And the so-called kind of is considered uneducated people living in forest and they are not uneducated by any means. Those who consider this kind of problem are uneducated, really, about their own society. I have been part of the women's movement and feminist movement in India, and we also did not take into consideration for quite late into the violence against women.
    And it still, it is not the mainstream of discussion in the violence against women. I have a bit of critique of our feminist movement also. Now, there are a couple of filmmakers and people who talk about it, but very few.
    [00:05:38] Sarah Jack: Can you give us a definition of a witch in the context that happens in India or tell us how a witch should be defined to understand who's getting attacked?
    [00:05:53] Govind Kelkar: I would define the witch, which we discuss this, and when we wrote the book I have a co-authored book, as I was telling you, published in 2020 by Cambridge University Press. And that is one thing that I thought that it would be. One day we will ask the question that, who do you consider the witch?
    A very brief and crisp definition is a woman or a man, sometime it is men also, but supernatural powers who cause harm to their own or to her community people. So it is not that she causes harm to other people, but within, to her extended family, to her close family, to her community. Somebody falls sick, somebody has the crop loss, untimely rain, which destructive, all these kind of considered a kind of something which is caused by the witch, with the exception of Covid, which happened. There was a large number of people who were denounced as or branded as witches during that period. But Covid was not considered as a witch phenomena, maybe because it came as a tsunami or it has came a kind of a, or affected everybody. So that is the reason that if it has happened in certain parts, then probably this would've been also one reason.
    [00:07:15] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    [00:07:17] Josh Hutchinson: And so the allegations, they're usually coming from people who are close, either kin or neighbors?
    [00:07:25] Govind Kelkar: Unfortunately, very close. It would be husband's brother, his nephews. In most cases they would be the people. Sometime it is close neighbors extended who are likely to get hold of some property by extension the woman has. And normally these would be unsupported women, either where the husband is weak, either physically has some ailments, or he's not there, or the sons are working.
    It's very patriarchal society, okay, with the exception of Meghalaya. So either sons are away and they visit only once in 6 years or once in 12 years. And then the woman would be harassed by the husband's nephews, which are, who are her nephews, because they will get that property.
    The question one raises what property it has, I think even a kind of tattered house for utensils, whatever in that context, the property there, they will get hold of that. So if the woman is driven out or killed, then this would be the case. Sometime neighbors also do, if there is a child dies, then probably the neighbors also would join together.
    I recently visited about three months ago, I was in the field in a state of Tripura, and I went to see a case, which has happened only two weeks ago where a woman was buried alive and her husband and seven others, close relations of the husband, they were party to it. And I was surprised. I was in the village. I did not know before that where the husband was also party to it. So I asked the mother-in-law, I said, who are the people who did it? And she said people in the village, close relatives. I said, where is the husband? Because the son who was eight year old, he was wearing those funeral kind of clothes, white clothes, not sleeping on the cot, but sleeping on the mat. So he was carrying that to sit on that so that he did not sit either on the ground or on something else. So I said why this little boy is doing this white clothes and all this. And they said, oh, because it is our custom.
    But I said, where is the father? Says that he has gone to market, but actually he was in the police custody. They were arrested. So even this kind of incident how the people are saved or they lose face in telling the outsiders.
    [00:10:00] Josh Hutchinson: Are the perpetrators often arrested?
    [00:10:04] Govind Kelkar: Wherever there is a law or the person is killed. The accusations or branding as a witch, that there is no arrest for that, even when the law is there, which is very unfortunate. She's harassed for months. She is driven out. Only when she's killed, then there would be arrest. So it is the case of the murder then. They see that. 
    So there is the Indian penal code. In seven states of India, we have the law against witch hunts, but they're also really the, they call it prevention witch hunts kind of thing. But police acts only when the woman is killed. Being driven out, being harassed, being branded as a witch, there is a whole process goes on for quite some time before she's killed. Nothing happens during that period. Although they are supposed to do that legally. 
    [00:10:57] Josh Hutchinson: So it sounds like authorities could step in before it gets to the point of murder, but they're not doing that.
    [00:11:06] Govind Kelkar: Yes, if you see the laws of these kind of where the state has been passed, highest number is in the state of Jharkhand and then followed by Assam. These are the, we call them states, what is called the provinces in the earlier kind of thing. And then it is in Mizoram, and I have done work in all three these areas. And one finds that the law is very, Mizoram doesn't have any law. Assam has these laws recently passed. And they're really toothless, very lame laws kind of thing, including in a ridiculous, the first law that was passed in 2005 or something, it was two thousand fine for this kind of thing. 
    So court treats this as a part of the belief system. They say it was done as a kind of under the influence of the belief, although legally it is, this is not so in the law, but this is the treatment of the code. Police is generally from this caste society. And even when they are part some indigenous people are there, they also get influenced because they are in a smaller number. They don't raise the voice. And then also you see that this is treated as the kind of part of the belief system. This crime is not treated as seriously as the other crimes would be treated. So harassment, although they say for some laws that I recently passed, like in case of Orissa State harassment is part of the law, but it is not implemented.
    Nobody reports about it. They don't go to the village. They don't know. The woman also doesn't know that she has to go to the court because she finds court very useful. First thing, there is a general fear. You don't know the language that lot of women have not familiar with Hindi or English, which is the language of the law. And the result is that they are not taken serious. They don't have the confidence to go also, that is the, to go with the lawyer or to the police. So there is a lot of gap between law and the what actual happens in the practice.
    [00:13:18] Sarah Jack: Can you tell us how the gender systems are diverse?
    [00:13:23] Govind Kelkar: In indigenous areas, we have two kind of varieties by and large, two major kind of thing. One is the matrilineal state, which is the, where the, it is not matriarchy, but it is matriliny in terms of the lineage, property rights that the land rights, they are with the women, they are even spiritual heads, in terms of making decisions in some community. Within the particular state, also, there are communities. So somewhere they are spiritual heads. So for example, the Khasi society, they are the spiritual heads, but not in Garo.
    But they are not there in the decision making. All the decision is made in these matrilineal systems by men. So not a single woman would be there in the, either in the local body, which is called durbar, village level or onwards till the state level. So political matters and decision making, these are considered as the male role. And the male preserver a male domain. And the women's domain would be cooking, cleaning, agricultural work, managing the household, providing for the family, taking care of children, and also property management. Youngest daughter inherits the property. Whether it is a management or it is the ownership, in both cases, the youngest daughter would get it. So this is one system of the matriliny. 
    Then the rest of the societies, by and large, are patriarchal, where it happens. In the patriarchal, women don't own any land. There is total economic independence on men. They don't make any decisions. They, what else would be of course, cooking, cleaning, all that kind of division of labor, gender, division of labor, which is by and large universal kind of thing, except some changes happening now that is there in these patriarchal societies.
    And in these societies also, there is a kind of very high level of brutalization of women, unlike in the matrilineal society. But there is one thing that needs to be really noted that even in this matrilineal society, there is a movement of men for taking control of the property. Somewhere they have succeeded also. For example, in case of Nagaland, nokma, which was the village head, that was the position, N O K M A, nokma was the title of the village head, that these village heads were women.
    And the, when she got married, then the husband would assist her. So he would be called traditionally as nokma's husband, but now it is the other way. As soon as the nokma gets married, the entire kind of responsibilities and authorities, powers, they are taken over by the husband, and he goes around, and he makes the decisions, and nobody even knows really, except the village itself, that the nokma is the woman, not the man, only that kind of village. I was surprised. I was three days in this village. Third day I came to know that woman was the nokma, and I was interviewing with the husband as the nokma, he was introduced. And this was the general pattern. This is happening in Garo society, particularly, which are the matrilineal.
    In Khasi society, you find that there is a movement of the men. There are two organizations like that. One organization called the equal rights of property division that to boys and girls, they should inherit both. And second is saying that no, we should follow what is happening in the rest of India. We are not progressive. We are backward. Progressive means here, not in terms of ideology and ideas, economic development, but they use the word progressive. So we are not economically developed or so-called progressive, because women are ruling here. 
    These are the kind of gender systems, the kind of, but even in matrilineal kind of thing, what is important? No decision making powers with women except when a woman is involved kind of thing. But even then, within that, there is a kind of less number of cases, a woman being denounced as witches or brutalized, that kind of thing. Once or twice a case happens, there is actually there more attack on men. This is surprising.
    There, which I have found that men are considered as a kind of doing the, if we same take the definition of the witch, which I told you that they are causing harm to others as the thlen keepers. Thlen is the biggest snakes. So that is they worship the kind of this big snake, giant snake, or we can call it dragon, but they call it the serpent.
    So this serpent, which is known as thlen, the household known as the thlen keeper, and thlen keeper are the people if you make money, all of a sudden. That's why I consider capitalism also responsible. So suppose you are working outside in Delhi and you send remittances and you have a good house and you don't associate so much with your community, then probably there would be a initially no interaction with you or with your family, because it's supposed to be, if you go there, then your blood would be sucked. Nobody knows kind of thing. And they say, oh, the thlen changes the shape, sometime he is as as a string of a thread, so nobody sees it, but he is supposed to subsist on human blood. The saying goes like this, that even this family employs some men to collect the blood from the fingernails. So the distrust is there that if any kind of unknown person comes to the village, he's threatened with his life. There have been some cases, and particularly young boys have been killed. I think about two years ago, five young boys were killed because of that. Three in one case and two in one case.
    [00:19:39] Josh Hutchinson: And that's because they were outsiders?
    [00:19:43] Govind Kelkar: They were outsiders. They were having some free time and they wanted to go around and they did not tell the families and they were outsiders. So they were.
    [00:19:52] Josh Hutchinson: Okay. And you mentioned that accumulating wealth causes suspicion, as well?
    [00:20:00] Govind Kelkar: That's precisely the kind of thing. This is happens in both matrilineal and patriarchal societies that if you are rich and the rich, better off, economically, much better off than the rest of kind of thing, than rest of the household, then it is considered that you have some mystical powers. And then through a, those kind of exploitative means that you have become rich. So I visited one area in matrilineal society where the ojha or the healer was killed, the ojha or shaman, why the shaman was killed, and by his own nephews, because the nephews kept asking him, why don't you teach me how you have become rich?
    He didn't say clearly. He said, of course, I just treat others and I don't do anything. He said no, you must have some mantras, some kind of powers you must have. So you have become rich. He has much better house than the cousins have, or the brother's sons have. And then he couldn't give them anything because probably there were not. And one night, 11 in the night they came, this is about a year old story and Garo Hills in the matrilineal society. And these three brother Sons they came, nephews. And these nephews just beheaded him.
    [00:21:22] Josh Hutchinson: For the listeners, I just want to let everyone know we recently read your study titled Culture, Capital, and Witch Hunts in Meghalaya and Nagaland. We'll put a link to it in the show description so people can see what we're talking about.
     The ojha or shaman that you spoke of, they also are involved themselves in finding witches?
    [00:21:50] Govind Kelkar: That has been their role that when something happens, the villagers go to ojha to the shaman. They have different names. Sometime they are kabiraj, that is the healer and the one who treats others some. So because the person gets sick, then they go there also. Now he first probably tries to find out what is the diseases has caused kind of thing. And then he finds out, oh, it is a difficult disease if in case there is fever, persisting fever, like typhoid or something. Then he tries to really tell them that somebody has caused this problem. Now he doesn't name the person. But he indicates enough that person is that direction, third house from that house.
    And there is a general kind of process. So that who would be the kind of person who would be identified? So without even naming, precisely naming the person, the whole village or that part of the village knows who is going to be affected. So this is the identification. Now, these ojhas, after where the law has been passed, these ojhas have now underground practice.
    So they consult each other. Almost every village has a ojha. But now two, three villages would have one ojha, because the practice is little bit on decline. And they also is scared of the legal system, because the system of ojha is illegal in the states where the law has been passed. In Nagaland and Meghalaya, there is no law.
    So they are the thlen keepers, and I have given some photographs also, and they're a ritual kind of thing. And where they put a hot, iron rod in the bubbling, in the bottle. And if the bubbles come up, they think it is the witch kind of thing. So I made a video out of this and he allowed that. He says, okay, because there is no law, he was not think that this can be at one point illegal, but it's not illegal. So then he will find out who's the thlen keeper, which household has the thlen? And if the household is very powerful, somebody in the government or somebody in this, then they leave that household. Otherwise somebody from that household would be affected and um, less killing in that household, because that generally these households are powerful but no interaction. It is the communitarian way of life, but they are ostracized, that household. So they are not invited for any ceremonies, any village functions.
    And you live there or they are asked also in some parts that you please leave the village, if they are very poor, similar kind of thing. So they don't have the power really to report to the police or report to do something. And also when you are socially boycotted, there is no kind of action that you will report to the police also for that.
    So that kind of, you live in a society which is ostracized. Their children also would carry that. So the, in the school, when the children goes, I interviewed one woman who has said that how she was really harassed while she was in the school, because the little girl, that household was known as the thlen keeper household. And oh, it was declared by the ojha. 
    And what did the system goes that you cut a piece of hair, girls have long hair, or you cut a piece of cloth that's a scarf, and this is, they say, then it offered to the serpent, it turns into blood and the serpent drinks, that kind of thing. So nobody's going to sit next to you, thinking that you might cut little piece from the flowing hair and the long hair, or you, or from the scarf, you can cut it kind of thing, and then you would be affected, you would die as a result of that. So total kind of boycott or, eh, total lack of interaction or isolation.
    [00:25:53] Josh Hutchinson: Nobody feels safe interacting with that person or being close to that person?
    [00:25:58] Govind Kelkar: That's right.
    [00:25:59] Sarah Jack: It sounds like the thlen keeper families for generations, they would be viewed as the thlen keepers.
    [00:26:14] Govind Kelkar: The only way that unless they made it so much in the system, because from, I know two thlen keepers family where one woman has married a UN official. So she definitely upgraded one. Her sister was a police officer. I met out of seven, only two. So that family could survive, but no interaction. Villagers would not interact with them. But they were able to live, they were not driven out. 
    And the other family I know who was a professor in Delhi. The girls are the supporters of the family. So she was professor and she also has written about it. So this is the only way out, that you made it in the system. Then you can really get rid of this. Then you will get married, not in your community and some other community out of, I mean it would be the so-called self-arranged or love marriage. It'll not be in the traditional system, the village or the surrounding villages.
    [00:27:17] Josh Hutchinson: How does someone become an ojha?
    [00:27:21] Govind Kelkar: One way is to dream. Somebody getting a dream that is and in different ways, in different kind of things. So one way was the dream that you, and in lot of cases it is from father to son that is the kind of practice. He learn. 
    Interestingly I met an ojha, who was, whose picture also I have given and who was very frank in discussing this kind of thing. He was a truck driver earlier, and he tried to become ojha. And I told him, how did you become? And he said he was being treated and nothing was working. That ojha was not. So he thought he would practice. And so that's how that he learned. And he, I said, how much time you took to become ojha, and he said about one and a half year.
    So it is also learning from others. Sometime you become ojha, they have the kind of assistant also. Initially you watch, you help the kind of thing. You heat the fire, you put the fire on, and you boil the water. And so that is how you learn. And then you set up your own practice. Sometime dream, dream is very convenient. They strongly believe it. And since I'm a nonbeliever, so I say it's very convenient, but they believe that they had the dream and this kind of thing, and this dream can be sometime like that you dreamt about a word entering into your body or some other objects entering your body, and that is seen as this is a kind of God's wish that you become a healer kind of thing, that you have become the treating others as your duty to the community.
    [00:29:05] Josh Hutchinson: And then how does someone get associated with keeping the serpent?
    [00:29:11] Govind Kelkar: Keeping the serpent. Nobody has seen it. It is normally the rich families. I'm using their term as the rich, better house, children going outside, better clothes, acquiring car. In such a way that you are called within your community as much economically better off, much better off than others.
    And then they think that it is the thlen worshipers, they are known as the thlen worshipers. That serpent must have blessed them. And thlen lives on the human blood as I explained earlier. So that's why people don't go to the house. But they, in most cases, they are not driven out, because of their economic power.
    [00:29:54] Josh Hutchinson: Speaking about the economics, you talked in the study about the emergence of the accumulative economics, where before it was largely communal economics, and what impact is that having on witch hunting?
    [00:30:16] Govind Kelkar: Either we call it market forces or we call it accumulative society, or we call it a capitalist society. So this is one of the thing, so the accumulating household, that means who are in their perception accumulating household. And really they are become the, they are much better off than the rest of them. There is a mystical belief that how they have acquired the wealth and we have not acquired? Or for example, if I fields and then that it would be considered how your fields are fertile? I have also fields, I'm also working, but my fields do not produce as much as your fields produce, so there must be the kind of some kind of mystical means. So this thlen is considered that you must be worshiping, thlen must have blessed you. The thlen is like a kind of god in this sense, the spirit, and that that has blessed you and that's why you have become like this. So that is one thing in Meghalaya, the matrilineal state.
    The other society, Nagaland, this is the tiger. The human takes the form of the tiger, and they go on robbing others. And that is very kind of a system has become like that. They have council of tigers, tiger men, and nobody can blame them for this kind of tiger men, because they are not human when they attack them, when they rob others.
    The first thing they do it in the night, and it is supposed to be that these are the tigers who are doing it. Tiger men, they call it tiger men who are doing it. And it is really not those our neighbors who are doing it. Yeah. Or the villagers, our villagers are not doing this is the tiger spreads that make them. So no reporting against them, no appeal against them. They take anybody's cow, anybody's pig, anybody's chicken, and they subsist on that. And of course this is a scot-free. 
    They also molest women, and that was very meekly discussed in a kind of that they go in the forest where there is a drinking, there is a feasting because somebody has, who has got this by other tigers within the village, outside the village. And there would be the, a woman who is collecting, gathering things from the forest, she would be normally subject to their attacks. The sexual attacks I'm talking about.
    [00:32:45] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. 
    [00:32:46] Govind Kelkar: The tiger possessors, they are not really driven out of the village, because they are considered tiger. And it goes like that tiger and humans are brothers. On the one hand that even if the real tiger comes, animal, they would not kill that tiger because that is considered as the brother has come, and of course there are studies also sometime for random at the Burmese border, Burma, and Mizoram border. There are some people who in order to terrorize I was in one interview was I was told that there is a random shooting of the human beings also. So that it would be the, and of course there is also that human flesh eating or cannibalism that was also reported. From earlier period of headhunting, it emerges from there, but now they don't talk about that much, but they say that tigers have this urge to eat raw meat. That is the time that they go on robbing others. 
    I met a tiger woman also and a tiger man, and they discussed their kind of thing. Woman has retired from the government service, and I was surprised all her life from the childhood till now she was being blamed as the tiger woman. Tiger girl, tiger woman. And when I had a dinner with her, and I asked her that, how did she herself probably started, because I didn't have the courage to ask whether you were branded as a tiger woman, but probably she could know that why I was meeting her all of a sudden coming from Delhi.
    She said that she had preferred to work in the night. And that she was sleepy during day in the school. And as a result of being sleepy, she was not able to pay more attention or the focus attention or she will look like this here and there. That was also his, and they said that because she's active in the night, she's a tiger girl. And this tiger girl, she kept studying, but they kept saying that kind of thing. And of course you don't say the girl, you would say that she's a tiger girl, but when she becomes a woman, she starts kind of thing. You don't start talking to her as that. Are you a tiger woman or not? So everyone talks about you, but nobody says things on your face.
    She gave some information to her brother-in-law, who was in the deputy inspector general of police, who were looking in that area. She gave some information because she happened to gather some forest produce, and her brother-in-law, in fact, informed me that I have a sister-in-law who's a tiger woman. Would you like to meet her? I met this retired police officer. That's how I met her. So even the brother-in-law confirmed that she was, and a police officer, highest ranking police officer in the state, confirmed that she's a tiger woman. 
    I asked him, where are the other tiger men that you are talking about? And he said they are in the lot in the police force, a lot in the army. So I was surprised to see that, how matter of fact, he, of course, he gave me very frank interview that I was doing the research that he understood well. But I was also surprised to know that how this system is prevalent, belief that they change the form in the night. They become tigers, these human beings, and then go and take resources from people.
    [00:36:19] Sarah Jack: These interviews are so important. The information that you gather firsthand from the individuals seems very important.
    [00:36:31] Govind Kelkar: Thank you. I also thought, because I have been associated with the indigenous studies for, I don't know, over two decades and that time I studied in Central India and these two states, Jharkhand and all this, this system was not there. So this is also diversity kind of thing. The tiger were not there. Witches were there, outright witches. And killing them was only to getting rid of them. And you ask them that, what is the number of the witches would be there. And they would say that their, every village would have two or three witches, women. And they are either old, most of them are old. Sometime you do find young women also, but they would be unsupported, sometimes single, sometime unsupported and sometime they assert their right. I got a call, I think last year a woman ward member, ward is the panchayat, which is the local village kind of thing.
    She's a considered important person to deal with the local affairs. So a woman was a ward member, and she was very effective, and she was told you step down, otherwise we'll call you a witch, and we will treat you like that. And her husband was there, but he could not protest. And the child was also young. Two daughters, one son. So it is the normal family, but it was not by single, by any means kind of thing. The single women now are supportless women. Everybody was there, but because she was asserting her right? So patriarchy is another factor. You should be where you society has kept tradition, has kept you subordinate to men, economically dependent on men, and do your kind of work that has been assigned to them, household. Don't attempt to do things. So that is also factor besides capital, besides accumulation, these things are also there.
    [00:38:32] Josh Hutchinson: And how do you make changes to improve the situation for women?
    [00:38:39] Govind Kelkar: Very important question there. The government of India recently in the last two, three years, have recognized three women for fighting the witch system. They were denounced as witches and one in central India in Jharkhand state, one in Assam, and one in Mizoram. They were labeled and they fought or they fought this kind of thing.
    So government gave them a kind of award called Padma Shri, so I interviewed this Padma Shri woman I said, how you have become so important. You were able to fight the system. You didn't care. One point was that, of course, it was not easy fighting the system, was not easy. 
    What I gather from that discussion that you have raised, that women's agency is very important. Capacities and agency is very important. I don't care if you call me a kind of tiger woman or you call me a witch. Okay. So that becomes very important capacity of the household. If of course, if household is supportive kind of thing. In one case, this woman, her husband has denounced her as witch. She took the support from other women who were, some organizations have come, NGO support, and she left the house and she went there because that's how she was able to survive. Supportive structures within an outside community is very important. That is one is strategy is important. 
    Second is law is also important. If you have, wherever there is a law, these ojhas and shamans, they are no longer as active as they used to be. They are underground. They are working very stealthily, but they are not they would be arrested if they know that they are ojha. Then particularly if there is witch killing case, then ojha also would be arrested because he would be the person who has identified. So he's scared for that. So law is important, but law by itself is not enough. Law has to be strict, more kind of punitive and punishment for this action, and punishment has to be not only in terms of when she's killed, but punishment when she's branded, because that is a state that would be there. So the law has to look all kind of things. 
    A general neglect of the indigenous people I also feel in the legal system. Oh, this is their part of the belief. And some people also, I also feel felt a bit of resistance and it is state like Meghalaya. They say you are, this is the part of our sacred culture. So indigeneity or kind of identity movement, which is coming, that needs to be really a cushion that in, your identity as a group, as a community is important, but this identity has to be the human rights respecting culture.
    So the cultures have to be really, and there is no harm in taking good aspect of the culture from any other part. There has to be good kind of aspect of culture, because I give them example of India where the sati system was there. I don't know if you're familiar with sati. Sati was the, S A T I, sati was the system where the woman was burnt alive with the death of the husband, which was outlawed. And this was considered as a part of the Indian culture. So I gave them that example that how these things have been eliminated. Treatment of the women or burning of women in Europe, witches thing. So this so that, so this is the second law has to be effective by capacity building of women and it has to be Good punitive with good punitive measures. It doesn't have to be larger sphere of the sake of it has to be implemented. Third has to be really the case, which is more important, strike at the belief system. So throughout the campaign, the discussion, research-based advocacy would be important against this kind of practice. So women's agency, effective legal measures. Third would be really the good kind of research based advocacy at the community level, advocacy at the state level, because we normally think everything you do to the government, it is solved. No, here the community is also involved. 
    So we are not attacking the cultures, but we are attacking some aspect of the, I have a lot of respect for the indigenous people's culture in their communitarian way of life, in their conservation of the resources, water conservation, forest management, the very kind of good practices. But along with good practice, you have unfortunately this practice. So that is important that somehow it is not a attack on their culture. It is only one part of the culture that needs change like untouchability cast system in India that needs to be changed. Whatever the good kind of part would be of the Indian culture. That would be the one of the things. Or like racial situation in the US or treatment of the indigenous people. So in any society, we have these kind of belief features and they need to be changed. So that is one thing that repeated kind of dialogue with the indigenous people with their community, that has to continue and till they take their in their own hands so that, because there are some women group that has come, there are some individuals, one or two organizations. And film would be a good source for this.
    And most important was a woman who was a kind of awardee, this Padma Shri awardee, in Jharkhand, whose husband has denounced her as a kind of witch. She said the proof is very important, and in the European history also, if you see that proof was required. Show me how I have caused harm. So it is not really that I did something to make somebody sick. There has been concrete evidence, concrete proof. So once if the judicial system is start asking for the proof or the legal system start asking for the proof, the community asking for the proof, because first the cases go to community before they go to the court, then the proof is very important. If I am witch, then show me what I have done to your child, kind of thing. 
     Healthcare is also considered, good healthcare. So these are the five strategies that I think would be useful to address this kind of system, because there has been a PhD work on somebody did a research on Chhattisgarh one state, and there used to be in the 19th century cholera witches, because people were dying of cholera, children were dying of cholera. And that time it was that they were called as a cholera witches. That means that somebody has caused some kind of poison the child through some means, and she was known as the cholera witches. Not much earlier, not now. This brand of cholera witches completely disappeared after this kind of became that what you need on the dehydration, rehydration kind of thing in order to avoid the cholera. And you could survive. 
    So I think decentralized, effective healthcare also would be important. So then people won't go to ojha. These states are also literate states but out of belief, they will not go to a doctor, they'll go to ojha for treatment. So if you go to fever, so that, that is also needs to be changed. And I think this will be changed through the community dialogue.
    [00:46:32] Sarah Jack: I have a question. How does the education of children work in these communities?
    [00:46:42] Govind Kelkar: Very educated, very articulate in English, very articulate in other subjects. But there was a young man who was recently for me, local researcher. And he was studying in very elite College of Delhi. I asked him, because he was my local, I said, do you believe in the witch system? He said, not in Delhi, but when I go back home, I believe. I said, how do you believe? He says, I'm fearful that something might happen to me, somebody might cause something. I was so surprised. Then I said, this is the study that is not there in that kind of thing, but hopefully soon you will be able. I'm writing that study. So I was surprised, because I thought a person who is comes very articulate, very knows things, and he is acting as my research assistant, so we have discussed the thing. But he also said that while I'm Delhi, I don't believe in, that's nothing would happen to me, but back home, something, somebody might do something.
    So how this kind of in socialization kind of thing, socialization does internalization also, we we internalize many things without knowing, and there nothing as education that attacks our internalization. It is the other way, in fact. If we are questioned for something, then we become very defensive. So that is one of the things that education is not, that's why I didn't refer to education. 86. 6% and 90% people are educated. Much better kind of educational figures than you have in the other parts of India. But they have these practices. 
    And there is nothing in our textbooks. And sometime media, it seems very popular in terms of television shows talking about how the witches are there and how would this source of kind of so-called entertainment their feet are towards the backside and upside down feet and they don't touch the ground. All these kind of promoted as a part of the entertainment, but they enter our mind for this. So they further reinforce the belief system. 
    So in this young man, then I gave him the assignment that he interviewed about 21 young people, youth, and out of 21, and they were all in the college and the doing the BA. Out of 21, only one did not believe in the witch system. Others, including he himself, everyone believed in the witch practice. So this is the education that is the role, how we can see that. Probably education is important, but what kind of education we are, we question that.
    These things should be included in the textbooks, in the primary school itself kind of thing. Then education works. That definitely education works. This is our attempt, but I don't know when we will be able to effectively address this. That in the education really it should be kind of part of the thing and that need to be addressed. But we are going through a difficult phase in terms of with our political system. So let's hope that someday, change would come. That kind of education is very important that with the real education, I would think and parents also need to be educated probably. We stop saying that. Oh, stop crying. Otherwise the witch would come and take you. Huh? So that also happens. Many families. Many families.
    [00:50:23] Sarah Jack: That could happen in any culture on any continent. That warning, for sure.
    [00:50:29] Govind Kelkar: Yes. These are the lingering kind of things that continue with their cultures. Yes.
    [00:50:34] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    [00:50:35] Govind Kelkar: Yeah, that is very important, really how effective kind of thing it can be. That is because here it is the kind of vengeance, vendetta. As soon as somebody child dies, particularly child dies, and then they are looking for somebody to attack. And they know that child may has been having fever or something, but even then they are looking at that, start looking what somebody must have done something.
    So along with the healthcare, availability of the healthcare, this kind of measure also needed, training of the healthcare workers, ASHA, we call them, this would be important at local level. There is a healthcare worker, ASHA, a training of ASHA in this regard would be very important. 
    [00:51:19] Sarah Jack: When you were talking about the asking for proof, the requirement of proof, that's the beginning of critical thinking and questioning. I know when we heard from Dr. Leo Igwe with witch attacks in Nigeria, one of the things that they're trying, the Advocacy for Alleged Witches is really trying to implement critical thinking curriculum in the elementary, young pupils, and just getting them to question things.
    [00:51:55] Govind Kelkar: It would be important probably. There is some beginning is being made here also in terms of questioning. In Jharkhand it has happened both among the supportive structures outside the community and within community. But in northeast India, which is more literate and more as a kind of, these seven states together, what kind of thing, as all are indigenous states and all are highly educated people, and I think 60 to 80% are Christians converted to Christianity. They are also very well educated because one of the things for Christianity was the education and doing kind of thing there. 
    I did not find this kind of questioning. That is what comes as a surprise to me. And one of the things was also that limited research has been done and anthropological researchers that have been done earlier, they have done really like a state of affairs that is this is happening among these communities. Why it is happening, what kind of impact it has, whether it need to be changed, this was not questioned. So this othering of the people, othering of the problem, that is the only thing that kind of is available in the literature that is on the society that is there. Our attempt here in this alliance that they are like us and we are like them, whatever the way we can put it. 
    And every society has some problems, so it is not really that, and we need to address this problem. We need to question that problem, because both caste system and sati which I gave these two kind of very bad examples, or even female infanticide, we are still working on these kind of things. Somewhere it has changed, somewhere has not changed. But it has come with much kind of after long struggle kind of thing. So I think this thing is also going to change. I am a strong with optimist that this is also going to change. The laws have been passed in some states. We are trying our kind of effort to pass a laws in other states also. And central, some people were thinking that there should be one laws from the center. And probably there is need for it, but we need specific laws from a state level also, because there are special characters of this problem.
     I define witch, thlen keeper is also witch, because it causes harm to the community that kind of furthering or the tiger person. So that's why I call them in ritual attacks and witch hunts kind of thing. This is hunting of these people, witches, going on within that largely women because they are at a weaker place in the society. So 80% or 85% would be women only. Some men would be denounced. These are the figures that come. 
    I have a case study. This has been qualitative study, so case studies about one. 1 63 people, 110 from Jharkhand and the other kind of thing, 14 plus the, FG D'S focus group discussions. So I've not included them, so probably that would be an important thing. That's why I am trying my best to write in these kind of, small monograph or small papers like that. They can be sent to these states, and they can be subject of discussion, but they can be in English because everybody knows English. The language is English. So that is what, but where it is not, probably it can be translated in local languages, also. So that will be the next step that I am aiming at, or we are aiming at the part of this society.
    [00:55:45] Sarah Jack: I'd be interested in understanding a little bit more about the struggle and the work for the human rights around the gender inequalities.
    [00:55:59] Govind Kelkar: Gender equality and in this kind of sense also, both are sustainable development goals are very important. And there the all states have signed. So it is not really that it is the imposition of North on South that south is very much responsible for the, and a state of gender inequality is very high. India is known for kind of gender inequality. Yeah. Women don't have land rights. Land, I am saying property rights. But land is very important where it's still 63% population is in the rural areas, you will take land as the one kind of factor. So land, house, other property. So this economic dependence of women on men, unless this is addressed, this is the fundamental part of the kind of their inequality. 
    Second is about the kind of socialization process. Care work, not being recognized as work. This is another part kind of thing that is, which really feeds on all of us, and these are done at. You know how educated these people are. You sit in the UN system and then you or the economist doing this kind of thing that not a woman does work from morning to evening that goes, and that work is not recognized as work. And so eight hours or six hours you work in the office and that is recognized as work.
    So these are the struggles that are going on in the whole feminist movement or gender movement. Economic rights in terms of the real property rights and in terms of the care work, these are the important kind of thing and social norms. How do you question the social norms? Social norms inhibited these laws that have been passed. We need to question our social norms everywhere kind of thing. That would be important. The dress, the hair, the kind of whatever that we want to do. We can do this thing. I'm not taking anarchic position, but I'm taking really the rights based position that we have signed human rights, we have signed human rights declaration. Since 1948, we have been talking about these things about that no discrimination based on sex, class, creed, but these are continuing kind of things. They go back, they come back, some changes made kind of thing. So this is the inequality and that gives us hope, that witch question is also part of this?
    How much violence is there women within home and outside in public spaces, and we are all civilized people, that kind of thing. So this is not really that we kill, we call gorillas from somewhere and they are doing it. No, we are doing within our own society. I don't want to blame only indigenous people or indigenous societies or some rural areas for these kind of practices. We are so much engaged in these kind of practices both North and South. South is also North is also a struggling. Women in the North is so struggling against for recognition of their work for maternity leaves. 
    I studied the University of Michigan five years was there. And it is not really that women , has any maternity leave as a producing child is the private thing. If you stop producing children, what happens to the human society? Huh? That is the otherwise we talk so much of human resource development, but production of the human resource is not considered, given any value. And how do you maintain support that kind of that work is not even recognized, and there is no recognition of this kind of thing. So of course we come from a historic past where the women did not have the even the right to vote. So in kind of European society, what is the Switzerland got in 1971 or something that is as late as that. So inequality is so much ingrained. Gender inequality is so much ingrained in our social systems.
    These norms need to be changed. And this also applies to a whole question of the witch hunts, that also norms should be changed.
    [01:00:08] Sarah Jack: And how are the women as far as fighting for this change? Even getting women to the point where they can say, this isn't fair. There's probably so much work to do there.
    [01:00:26] Govind Kelkar: We are doing so much work, both in terms of advocacy, in terms of writing, in terms of protest. Doing a lot of work. There is a very vibrant movement in India, also, both women's movement and feminist movement, but atrocities also are committed against women. But we are also not taking it lying down. We are protesting, we are questioning the government system. We are questioning the judicial system. So both are happening, but when you don't, you are not in the positions of power, then it becomes very limited change that you can bring about. So women are not there in parliament. They should be in the parliament in 50% numbers. We don't have 30% kind of thing. And how long this law has been that 30, this is the goal that has been 33% women. So that is, they should be there if, except in the Scandinavian countries, we don't find this kind of number coming up. US doesn't also have, so this is the global situation that we're talking about. 
    Globally women's movement also very vibrant in the US. And also in India, also in China. China is supposed to be a very controlled society, but within China also there is a very kind of strong women's movement that is happening. But besides this, there is a kind of this strong movement and the repression is also a strong. So those who are in the positions of power, they also want to maintain their power, whether they are men or women, but in this case it is men who are in the positions of power. 
    [01:02:04] Josh Hutchinson: Is there anything that we haven't talked about today that you want to be sure to get across?
    [01:02:11] Govind Kelkar: Not as a question, but as a kind of as a solidarity statement that was, I was thinking that at international level this is a big progress. You in the US and Miranda in the Pacific or that part of the world and I in South Asia. Coming together and discussing this itself is a very important step.
    We are not really living in our comfort zones, having the kind, we are talking of the social transformation when we are discussing these things. But I don't want to treat this as the exceptional kind of exceptionalism of indigenous people. That has to be the kind of thing it is. 
    We have also similar situations in Europe, in US, and in Pacific, much worse. Violence is very high in Pacific. We have racial question in the US. My daughter is there, so I'm familiar. I studied there. So I'm familiar. In India, caste system and in a neglect of indigenous people by and large, that prevails all over. We have a solidarity to work together towards this.
    [01:03:21] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:03:32] Mary Bingham: Elizabeth How was a woman in her late fifties described by her friends as a devoted Christian and wife, everything a good Puritan carried in her heart. In fact, Elizabeth sought membership with the Ipswich Church in 1682, which she lived in Colonial Massachusetts, British America, but was railroaded by Samuel Perley, who at that time believed that Elizabeth bewitched his sick, 10 year old daughter, Hannah. Hannah remained sick with an illness the doctor could not diagnose. She remained in ill health for three years and blamed Elizabeth for her illness until her dying day. 
    So now Elizabeth was considered somewhat of an outcast by some with anger and vengeance rearing their ugly heads. Eventually, Elizabeth was formally accused of witchcraft 10 years later, and the Perley family were soon to testify against her recounting stories from 10 years prior. The only thing that Elizabeth could do as she waited to be hanged at Proctor's Ledge in Salem was to stand to her truth until her dying day, which she did with grace and dignity. 
    Let's fast forward to 2012 in the country of Papua New Guinea. A beautiful 20 year old woman and mother of two, Kepari Leniata, was accused of witchcraft when a young neighbor became seriously ill and died at the local hospital. Due to the continuing strong beliefs in others using supernatural harmful means when a sudden death occurs, his grieving parents and relatives blamed his death on sorcery. Two women originally hunted down by the family pointed the finger at Kepari. Kepari was forcefully removed from her hut, dragged through the streets to the local landfill, and was burned alive on a pile of trash with onlookers watching, not helping to save her life. Kepari, like Elizabeth How 320 years prior, stood firm to her truth while she was violently and brutally murdered. 
    Please listen to Sarah Jack inform as to how you can become involved to end violent deadly witch hunts. Thank you.
     
    [01:05:53] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:05:55] Josh Hutchinson: And here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:06:05] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends, have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump into end witch hunts with your particular abilities, influence, and network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing, long-term, collective effort for all of us to participate in. 
    I wanted to share about a special email I received this week from Connecticut. The email was from a local coffee shop that will be featuring an original drink concoction on their upcoming fall menu, honoring their local witch trial history. Stay tuned to our social media to see photos of the drink and find out which town and coffee shop is remembering this victim. What a meaningful gesture to recognize the story of this victim. A menu item created as a tribute to one of the victims named in the recent Connecticut General Assembly bill, HJ 34, is a thoughtful act of memorialization. Those accused and tried for witchcraft crimes in the American colonies were innocent of all witchcraft charges. We are so pleased that Connecticut leadership voted to clear the names of all 34 witch trial victims who are known that were indicted, arrested, or hanged. We'll be continuing advocacy work to see that the remaining known victims in the American colonies witch-hunt history receive exoneration in their states, as well. 
    That's two cliffhangers I'm leaving you with today: a coffee surprise, and you just found out you'll be able to join us in continued witch trial victim exoneration efforts in... you'll find out soon. Well, if you follow our social media, you may already have a hunch. 
    This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. In 2022, while we were working on the exonerations for the Connecticut Witch Trial victims of the 17th century, volunteers from the Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project founded End Witch Hunts. This organization directs our current and future initiatives such as collaborations for more education and a memorial in Connecticut, exoneration efforts in other states in the U S A where witch trial victims remain guilty for supernational crimes, as well as growing the podcast and our international partnerships with witch-hunt advocates in other nations. When we say that we are working with others to end witch hunts, it means just that. End Witch Hunts employs a three-pronged approach to the problem, focusing on knowledge, memory, and advocacy. You can learn more by visiting our websites and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country- specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. 
    To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop, have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.
     
    [01:09:15] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:09:17] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:09:19] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:09:23] Sarah Jack: We look forward to talking to you next week.
    [01:09:26] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:09:32] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:09:35] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, acquaintances, neighbors, and coworkers about the show.
    [01:09:41] Sarah Jack: Please continue to support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:09:47] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow. 
    
  • Prick: A Play of the Scottish Witch Trials

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Writer Laurie Flanigan-Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling speak about their new play production Prick. Prick is inspired by the Witches of Scotland campaign and tells the story of folk who were victims of the terrible miscarriage of justice of the witch trials in Scotland. The story of Prick traverses magic and memory, fact and fiction, past and present. This special conversation is a reflection of the evocative, poetic, and satirical way artistic work can deliver a relevant and critical message about our history and human experience.

    Prick, a new play by Laurie Flanigan Hegge, directed by Meggie Grievell

    National Archives, Scotland, Early Modern Witch Trials

    Witches of Scotland Campaign

    U.S. Strategy to Prevent Conflict and Promote Stability

    Join One of Our Projects

    Support Us! Buy Book Titles Mentioned in this Episode from our Book Shop

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Today we're here with the makers of the play Prick, which is now showing at Edinburgh Fringe. We are talking to writer Laurie Flanigan Hegge, director Meggie Greivell, and puppet artist Madeline Helling.
    [00:00:46] Sarah Jack: Prick is a satirical play about Scottish witch trials.
    [00:00:50] Josh Hutchinson: Features stories of three witch trial victims, including an unknown woman, Marioun Twedy, and Isobel [00:01:00] Gowdie.
    [00:01:00] Sarah Jack: There's difficult topics dealt with in the story, like pricking and shaving and watching of the alleged witches, and it's really an important part of understanding what thousands of women went through a few centuries ago.
    [00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: Puppetry is employed throughout. The art of the puppets is masterful, and how they're used in the scenes really brings life to the settings, and the puppets help make uncomfortable topics more comfortable. It's a quite enjoyable play. There's dark comedic elements to it, and it's got the devil himself.
    [00:01:48] Sarah Jack: Laurie, Meggie, and Madeline have a great conversation with us about how this play came together, the significance.
    [00:01:59] Josh Hutchinson: A [00:02:00] lot of the themes of the play are very relevant today, including the ever present element of misogyny in the witch trials and in women's lives these days, also. And so you learn about the double meaning of the name Prick, why they chose that name. 
    [00:02:25] Sarah Jack: In this conversation, they share some things that you're not gonna get from just attending the play, so this is a really great opportunity to understand the layers. Here is a special conversation about Prick, which was written by Laurie, directed by Meggie, with puppets created by Madeline. 
    [00:02:48] Josh Hutchinson: What brought your creation team and performance team together?
    [00:02:53] Meggie Greivell: So I reached out to Laurie last summer with [00:03:00] the hopes of writing a play about the Scottish Witch Trials, because it had piqued my interest since I moved to Scotland in 2021. I found out about the North Berwick Witch Trials, and I was very shocked and angered. And I'm graduating with my master's in directing soon. And this project is my directing thesis. I needed a play that was a new work, and I reached out to Laurie, because I'd worked with her before at the History Theatre in St. Paul, Minnesota. And I really loved her writing. And she said yes, she was interested in writing this play, and that's how we began. And Laurie, do you wanna take it from there?
    [00:03:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was interesting, because when Meggie asked me to do it, it was at a point where I had been, is the word fallow? When you don't have, you haven't been writing or like it, it had been a very fallow time for me, and I was just so happy to have a project to explore, but [00:04:00] I didn't know how to get into this project at first. The subject was so huge, and once I started researching, I felt pretty daunted by kind of the scope of it and a little bit nervous about the fact that I'm an American playwright who has, at that point I hadn't been to Scotland and I didn't really understand the history.
    [00:04:21] And then as things clicked along in my research, things started coming together in my brain. My introduction to this piece was through listening to modern media, which is podcasts. I was listening to your podcast and Witches of Scotland podcast and getting to know all of the amazing writers and historians and researchers through their own words.
    [00:04:49] And as time went on, I got more and more immersed in the understanding of the witch trials and how things connected. And I'm still right now [00:05:00] working on understanding what's happening in the modern world, which I was just saying, Sarah, that I had listened recently to your episode about Papua New Guinea, and it was, came for me at a very timely moment in my own understanding of just how our modern world is expressing this same horror that the women in this play lived through. But you'll notice in the play that media and the, kicking off with news of Scotland and my little kind of twisted take on that it is directly related to my relationship to media and the subject of the witch trials and the spread of witchcraft through the modern world.
    [00:05:40] Sarah Jack: And did you guys plan on incorporating puppetry?
    [00:05:45] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I would say right out of the gate I knew that I had the title Prick before I had anything else. When I heard about witch prickers I was, I said, "Meggie, I'd like to call it Prick." And she said, "yes, please do." And I knew that I wanted pricking [00:06:00] and the pricker to be a theme of the play but that I did not want to ask any actor or audience member to be subjected to seeing any kind of torture or harm inflicted on a body on stage.
    [00:06:17] And so from the gate, I said, I'd like to incorporate puppets. And by the way, my neighbor across the street is a puppet artist that I've been dying to work with. That's Madeline Helling. She's with us today. And I told Meggie I wanted to use puppets. She gave me a wholehearted endorsement and Madeline was immediately part of the process. Madeline, do you wanna say anything about that?
    [00:06:41] Madeline: Oh yeah, just Laurie said, "I have this project, it's about the witch trials." And I, yeah, it was an easy yes, easy thing to say yes to. The theme and working with Laurie and then doing this in Scotland was very exciting. Yeah, and Minneapolis is a really vibrant puppet community, so [00:07:00] I've had a lot of amazing experience working with a lot of amazing people here. That helped me gain some skills to do that.
    [00:07:09] Josh Hutchinson: That's interesting. I didn't know that about Minneapolis. 
    [00:07:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, it's a hotbed actually. There's a large puppet community and the, so the vocabulary of using puppets is something that I'm really familiar with as a theater artist, and I think, because of that vocabulary, and Meggie has lived in the Twin Cities too. We know, we all understand like what a puppet can mean in terms of emotion and how evocative a puppet can be. It's like a musical element. Does that jive with what you would say, Madeline, that there's a lyricism to using puppets?
    [00:07:41] Madeline: Yeah, I think it's just a language understood the world over and it's a street language that like, it's just, it's a cheap art form that is, there's roots in it all over the world. And in that way it has this sort of universality to it. And there's this way that [00:08:00] puppets, like everything they do has to be articulated. And in that way it can draw a little more focus and attention on certain elements, physical elements like breath is an action in a purposeful way, which is, I feel like for this play, for Prick it makes so much sense to have puppets in it. 
    [00:08:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: We also wanted to incorporate aspects of the world, of the other world, the familiars. and. When I said to Madeline, "I'd like a fox, a jackdaw," immediately that was possible and shape-shifting is possible. And it did organically change. My first draft, I think, Meggie, I said that there were puppets attached to bodies on stage, and that was just my first thought about it. And it evolved into the design that Madeline brought to us. But yeah, Meggie, I don't know. What did you think when I said puppets right away? You never seemed to fight that.
    [00:08:55] Meggie Greivell: I jumped right in. I was gonna say puppets are also [00:09:00] having, I think, a golden age in theater right now. In the UK they are, I think in the US they are, too. But in the UK, especially, with shows like a Warhorse that was, took over the West End and the Life of Pi right now has just won so many Tony Awards. The puppet artists and the tiger won a Tony Award. It was the first ever puppeteers to win a Tony Award, the seven actors that play the tiger. 
    [00:09:28] I'd never done it before, and I thought this sounds like a great opportunity to learn and for all of the student actors to learn, as well. And also I knew that it would help tell our story that we wanna tell, especially with The Accused puppet and not wanting to show a woman being tortured on stage. But also The Accused has become this really powerful symbol for women not having control over their own bodies during the witch trials.[00:10:00] And I think puppets bring magic to the theater. Like they belong in the theater and on the street, as you say, Madeline.
    [00:10:09] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It's interesting that we discovered the disassociation that people experience when they're experiencing trauma is personified by having the characters in our play talking about what happens. But it's embodied by The Accused, our puppet that we call The Accused. And so that was a very organic discovery that felt totally right. When we observed what that disassociation looked like on stage, it felt, like, oh my gosh, yes. It just felt really central to the whole premise of the piece. And we were working really quickly in conceiving and creating this piece. It was a beautiful discovery that felt completely in alignment with what we were trying to do with the piece.
    [00:10:49] Meggie Greivell: And all of the audiences have been responding really strongly to all the puppets, and they understand the symbolism of The Accused immediately. [00:11:00] We've had really, really powerful responses about that and the familiar puppets as well.
    [00:11:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So in the piece we have three different women who are called into what we call a liminal space, and when they get there, they are conjured into the space by the ensemble, and they are facing off with the pricker character. And in that space, The Accused appears. And so when the women are conjured and they are representing their own, this kind of core character, The Accused is with them.
    [00:11:35] Meggie Greivell: The Accused represents all three of the women, but also each of them individually, as well.
    [00:11:42] Josh Hutchinson: Can you talk about what pricking is?
    [00:11:46] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: ah, pricking.
    [00:11:47] Meggie Greivell: Yes.
    [00:11:48] So pricking in Scotland during the Witch Craft Act, there were witch prickers who were employed to prick and torture the women. So there, there [00:12:00] actually were witch prickers. But the play also has a beautiful double entendre. Pricking  symbolizes women being pricked with misogyny, as well. 
    [00:12:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: So the witch picker would use an instrument or a tool to search for a spot on the woman's body that wouldn't bleed. Witch prickers weren't part of every single trial, but they came and went in the Scottish Witch Trials, and they were sometimes charlatans, brutal. Women would be shaved, stripped, and searched and pricked with an iron rod, looking for a place on their body that wouldn't bleed. And if it was found or falsely found, it was stated that was where the devil's mark was.
    [00:12:47] Meggie Greivell: And they were paid very well to do this, and they're very respected in the community.
    [00:12:55] Josh Hutchinson: I would say for our audience, a [00:13:00] similar thing happened when they would have a group of women, a jury of women search a female suspect the body looking for witches' teets. That's what they were looking for at Salem and other American trials, and they didn't use the torture method of pricking along, but if they found an insensitive place, sometimes they would stick a needle through it to see if it drained any fluid. And yeah, they would just check for insensitive locations that stood out as unusual.
    [00:13:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: To think that a person would be touched in this way. And I, I think it's interesting that prickers in Scotland and the witch trials had their eras. It wasn't consistent throughout, but prickers would show up. 
    [00:13:57] One of the characters in our play, Marion Twedy [00:14:00] was pricked and actually that I found her in the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft database. And it so happens that she had two really interesting, compelling things about her case, one that she was pricked and one that she never confessed. But in her pricking, they did discover the devil's mark. We don't know what that was, but we know that she was pricked and that without a confession, the mark that was found on her was enough to end her life.
    [00:14:31] Josh Hutchinson: Terrible. We, Sarah and I have ancestors who were examined that way in the Salem witch trials, not with the pricking but with the close inspection of their secret parts. And teets were found, and they said, "get some more experienced women over here." But for the pricking, it's just extremely invasive and misogynist to have a man doing that to a [00:15:00] woman. That just is so brutal. I can hardly imagine it.
    [00:15:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The fact that sometimes the pricking instrument was a fake instrument that was enough to condemn a woman was that's not something we addressed in Prick. There was a lot I couldn't address just because the play is a one act play, but it did give a character a line, "you're pricking me now with every word," and to me that is that is the thread that Meggie was talking about earlier about the misogyny piece. Not every woman was pricked, but we all know what it feels like to be pricked in some way. And I'm not suggesting that the kind of pricking that these women underwent was in any way comparable to the pricks I felt in my life, because it's not the same, but that kind of image is resonant for all of us, I think.
    [00:15:51] Sarah Jack: Absolutely.
    [00:15:52] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I asked Madeline to create different size prickers, too, so that each character is met with an [00:16:00] instrument that gets bigger and bigger as the piece proceeds. So it starts out as a normal size, and then she plays with scale. So by the end, we see that this pricker is like the boogeyman is holding this pricker, and it's a little bit more universal.
    [00:16:13] Josh Hutchinson: Such a powerful image.
    [00:16:16] Madeline: And you just wonder at one point the person instigating or physically doing the harm disassociate themselves. So when we were like working through that piece in the show, that pricking object, like we just worked with the power that object held a bit, which was an, I dunno, it's just an interesting exercise, those elements and objects of torture.
    [00:16:49] Josh Hutchinson: It's amazing to me that anybody made it through without confessing.
    [00:16:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Zoe and Claire on the Witches of Scotland podcast, they talk about that a lot and [00:17:00] the whole thing about Scotland doesn't torture. It's like there was no torture in Scotland. It's just such a ridiculous thing to suggest that's not torture. I would've confessed for sure I wouldn't have been able to take that pain. That's how I think. Maybe I'm wrong, but.
    [00:17:14] Meggie Greivell: And Marion Twedy, did you, I can't remember if you said this earlier, but the character, Marion, our play, she did not confess, and we have that in the play. She's one of the women who did not confess, which is just so unimaginable to think about that.
    [00:17:32] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we have cases where the interrogation itself was intimidating enough to get a confession without the added physical duress, and it's just a marvel to me that anybody got through that process and even lived to be tried.
    [00:17:56] Sarah Jack: Does the play open with a strong start [00:18:00] or do you ease the audience into things?
    [00:18:02] Meggie Greivell: I would say it opens with a strong start. 
    [00:18:05] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It opens with it well, some audience members have described it as a chant or an incantation. But it starts with a list of communities around Scotland and one of our actors, she's from the Isle of Skye, and she said, "oh, this sounds like a walking song," and she came up with the song to go along with it. So it comes across as this really beautiful kind of chant, and then it's followed by an incantation welcoming the women into the space.
    [00:18:33] Meggie Greivell: It's a very haunting song. And we were using, Laurie wrote a heartbeat into the script and we organically discovered this, I found this very large stick at a store called Pound Savers, which is like the dollar store. And in the rehearsal room we discovered that it made a really great heartbeat sound, and that's in the song [00:19:00] and throughout the play, as well.
    [00:19:02] But it's become a symbol as well for a broomstick, as well as other types of domestic things, like a butter churn. And we also learned this was a happy discovery, coincidence, but also works really well with the play that in Scotland, a lot of the ministers and commissioners that were involved in the trials, they used questioning sticks. In the opening song, it sounds almost like a sea shanty or like this haunting folk song. And Laurie's written all these really beautiful words and incorporated in the Scottish cities where the witch trials happened into the song.
    [00:19:42] Josh Hutchinson: What stood out to me about the opening song is just how long the list of those cities is, the communities where witch trials happened. It's dozens of places.
    [00:19:56] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And yet it's still not comprehensive, right? That was my fear. What did I leave [00:20:00] out? And even now as I'm talking about things that are happening, as I'm trying to wrap my mind about where things are happening in the world, I feel like, again, not comprehensive to understand where modern witch hunts are happening. Just everywhere yet in between is how I got through that as a writer. 
    [00:20:19] Meggie Greivell: And that's one of the lyrics in the song as well. 
    [00:20:22] Josh Hutchinson: You talked about one of the women who's a victim who's in the play. Who are the other main characters whose story's being told?
    [00:20:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The first is an unknown woman, which was very intentional. I was really struck by the sundry witches and all the people whose names are lost. And so she was really the first woman to be conjured in my mind and also to be conjured into this world of this play. And she doesn't know who she is, which is part of her journey.
    [00:20:59] [00:21:00] She arrives in on the scene and is confused. She's come back, because she's looking for her baby, her bairn, and doesn't find her baby there. And she tries to leave, and they pull her back in. And we call her the unknown woman. She's an individual, but she represents many of the sundry witches who have no stone, no memorial, and no way of knowing who they are, erased by time.
    [00:21:27] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie writes very beautifully into the unknown woman's language that she has no stone. That's a through line throughout all of her scene.
    [00:21:39] Sarah Jack: So many elements of this work are just so incredible. I was so thrilled to see this aspect that you put into the story, because the unnamed, for the reasons that you just mentioned, but there's so many we don't know their name. You think about like with this specific [00:22:00] unnamed woman, she didn't know who she was. It's so striking, because before they're accused and examined, these women felt very confident, possibly some did, from testimonies you read, they're confident they're not a witch, they're confident that they're clear before God. And there's other historical unnamed individuals that are memorialized.
    [00:22:26] And then I think of when we were working on our exoneration legislation in Connecticut this past year. There is an unnamed person in some records, but the politicians didn't include it in the final draft that individual who could have represented so many, who could have been a symbol for these women like your unnamed is, she was removed from that legislation, and that was so disappointing to me. I [00:23:00] am so thrilled to see that a part of your message.
    [00:23:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's heartbreaking. The fact that we don't know who she was doesn't change the fact that she existed. I think this is what's so important about memorialization, too, is that marking someone's life acknowledges, it's like how we all wanna feel seen, right? I wanna feel seen. You wanna feel seen. To be unseen and to be invisible is another insult. And then for, I think for these women who were Christian women, to not be given a Christian burial, at least in their own understanding of the world as they know it, they're not seen in the world, in the afterlife, in the way that they wanted to be seen. That's an aspect for her, too, that she's stuck in purgatory or whatever it is, the liminal space.
    [00:23:45] Meggie Greivell: And Laurie used the Scottish Witchcraft database to get information for the three accused women in the play. And we learned that there are thousands of unnamed in the [00:24:00] records here. So it's a lot really.
    [00:24:04] Josh Hutchinson: I found the line in the play about the and sundry witches were killed so powerful, because it shows how little these women were valued. You don't even deserve to have a name, like you're just erased entirely.
    [00:24:26] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I think we included the definition. Our version of this play has three men who play various roles, and then three women who play various roles, plus each having their own individual women. But the chorus of men says sundry witches confessed. And one of the women says, "sundry: definition, various items not important enough to be mentioned individually." And that's what it comes down to. It's you're not important enough for us to know who you were.
    [00:24:51] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Our listeners here will be familiar with a lot of the women who are just known as Goodwife or Goody, [00:25:00] because their first name, nobody bothered to record that. They just recorded that they were the wife of so-and-so and the man mattered, but the woman who was the actual target, her name didn't matter. So yeah, it's very moving.
    [00:25:20] Sarah Jack: I also think it's a recognition of the modern victims that we're just getting to know. We know of such a small fraction of the individual cases. So here today, there are unnamed victims.
    [00:25:36] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, and I think it's hard for people when you don't have a name or a story to attach to something to actually hang their understanding on what happened. If it's oh, this woman, this happened to this woman or these women, versus knowing the names of people who are going through this trauma, that's a completely different thing. It's like a personification in a way. [00:26:00] Sundry objectifies people. It makes them into just another witch, when it's an individual who has a story and a life and a history and a family and a living, breathing identity.
    [00:26:11] Madeline: It is incredible the power that language has here in dehumanizing. That's actually like what my college thesis was about, our language and use of the words torture and terrorism around like torture tactics used, created by the US government, used in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. And dehumanization that happens to each of those individuals and the things that are defined as torture and those that are not, and those are, that are defined politically and have ramifications of teeth attached to them. It's really interesting what happens when certain words are attached to things and then a whole people become numb to the realities of what that means, of the people behind those [00:27:00] things, or the victims.
    [00:27:00] Josh Hutchinson: And there's more than just the pricking in the play. There's also the watching, which was another form of torture. Can you talk to us a little about the watching?
    [00:27:13] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: That's really interesting, because one of the things that we discovered in the writing of the piece was that the cast was really interested in kind of understanding what it meant to be watching, too. And you may have noticed that a character who is just a general farmer becomes a watcher, and he has this really beautiful arc throughout the piece.
    [00:27:36] That's, those are his words. He was talking about how he felt about playing this role, that his character had an arc. He went from being an accuser to a watcher to the spouse of a victim and essentially a nonbeliever at the end in God or the devil. But that watching piece, people were paid to [00:28:00] watch women, keep them awake, keep them from falling asleep. Sleep deprivation was a a form of getting a confession, and they, the people who were, the women and their families were paying for the candles that the watchers were using. They were paying the salaries of the watchers. This is another weird aspect of the economics of it, is that it got turned back to the families at the end. You, this is your bill for what your witch costs our community. 
    [00:28:28] You were just asking about the watchers, but it's a bigger answer. We were really curious about what it was like to be responsible for inflicting this on someone else. Our watcher walks into the room and sees his wife in a witch's bridal, which was a way of keeping a woman awake, keeping her tongue from being able to talk and a terrible torture device. And that's bridal is on our puppet, the accused. And I think people respond to that in a way that's really shocked. [00:29:00] Even though you know it's not on a person. It's very evocative. 
    [00:29:04] Josh Hutchinson: So the watching we're talking about, you would sit a woman in the middle of a room and have somebody keep them awake for days on end, and they're looking to see if a familiar or imp comes to feed while they're watching, so the witnesses can confirm that the suspect has had a contract with the devil.
    [00:29:33] And they did that also in England. Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General, is known for doing that. And there's at least one case in New England that's documented of Margaret Jones of Charlestown. She was watched in this way. 
    [00:29:49] But in your play, I know the characters are awake for untold hours and days, [00:30:00] and at that point, you're just delirious, and who knows what you're seeing even to get a confession out of you at that point, doesn't seem like it might be the most accurate confession that you're gonna get, but it's what they wanted to hear is what the person would say.
    [00:30:18] Madeline: Important to note that in Scotland at the time, torture was illegal and known to produce inaccurate information. So there was that piece of recognition there, on the books in Scotland as the official way of the land. And then the reality of the witch trial.
    [00:30:38] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And what do they say? It takes 48 hours before you start hallucinating when you're sleep deprived. Or I hope I'm getting that when I was just in Edinburgh last week, somebody was talking about that, that you are not a reliable witness after being awake for 48 hours. And there is records of a lot of these people being kept awake for days at a time, like you said.
    [00:30:59] [00:31:00] I took the perspective that a person who was kept awake like this would do anything to make it stop. That is part of this piece, as you mentioned, but it's a thread that goes through every single trial that we read about the sleep deprivation.
    [00:31:13] Meggie Greivell: And it was often the accused family members or friends or neighbors who were doing the watching, which I find like just so incredibly harrowing. That's with all of the witch trials. I know that was something that happened where neighbors had to be complacent, and that's the something that just really disturbs me so much, and I think Laurie wrote that so beautifully. 
    [00:31:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: These really small communities, everybody knows each other, right? They're accusing people they know, they're watching people they know, and they're executing people they know.
    [00:31:49] Meggie Greivell: Yeah.
    [00:31:51] Josh Hutchinson: And you do see that with the modern day witchcraft persecutions, as well. The [00:32:00] accusation often comes from within the family, and it's just so extra tragic that it's somebody that you know and you trust turns against you.
    [00:32:12] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The third woman that's conjured into our space is probably the most famous of all the Scottish witches, Isobel Gowdie. And she was the last character to come to me. What we love about Isobel Gowdie is how much agency she has in her confessions, or seems to have in her confessions and what she means to people now, that she represents somebody with power.
    [00:32:37] And as we were creating this piece, Meggie asked for a powerful character to come into the, this realm. And she was the obvious choice. I wanted to be really careful about how I present her, because I know she has so much meaning to so many people, right? And there's a lot that's unknown about her, [00:33:00] but her confessions are long and interesting and curious and awesome in a way.
    [00:33:07] They're just such interesting documents, but we really don't know how she got to those confessions. We don't know if she was pricked or not. There was a pricker in the area, and yet there's no record of the pricker being part of her trial. There's nothing sure about whether she was watched or kept awake. We don't have that information, but we know what she said and it's so interesting. So she was fun to write, and she's, I think Lisa McIntyre, who plays her in this production, really enjoys the power and the fact that she's a bit of a baddy. She gets to speak truth to power and own her own story in a way that the other characters don't, Isobel.
    [00:33:49] Meggie Greivell: Laurie and I talked about how we made the choice to give her power back because Laurie was saying, we don't, [00:34:00] nobody knows why she said all things that she said, or if it was really just the ministers and the investigators putting words into her mouth or making these things up or if it was from sleep deprivation.
    [00:34:12] But we've made the decision to have her kind of take her power back and say, "no, I did do these things. I did turn into a jackdaw and attacked the pricker."
    [00:34:24] Josh Hutchinson: What are some of the other things that she confessed to?
    [00:34:28] Meggie Greivell: Part of it though, is she did turn into a lot of different animals.
    [00:34:33] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: She did say she did a lot of shape shifting. So Isobel Gowdie, her confessions are pretty remarkable. She says things across a huge gamut, like she's confessed to mixing the body of an unchristian child with nail trimmings, grain, and colewort. I'm reading this right now from the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft, but she said she chopped it all up and used it to take away the fruit of a man's corn. Just think about that, [00:35:00] chopping up unchristian child with nail clippings.
    [00:35:02] It's ah this flying in a straw broom was a thread that we see the witch on a straw broom. That was a, an Isobel Gowdie kind of a one of her biggies. She talked about elf shot. She would fly around and use elf shot, flick it with her thumb, and kill people to send a soul to heaven, but the body remained on Earth, according to her confessions. Talked about meeting the queen of the fairies, taking away milk, doing things in the devil's name. She said she um, destroyed, let's see, she made an image of the laird of Park to destroy his children, and she went into great detail about how she did this. She confessed a lot to shape changing jackdaws, cat, hare, and we really play with that shape changing aspect in our show. I could go on and on, but she's got a lot of really specific things. And she had four, I think four sets of interviews or [00:36:00] interrogations, and she got more and more specific with each one.
    [00:36:02] Sarah Jack: I was thinking about some of the New England witch trials, and there's actually some of the afflicted girls either in Connecticut or in Massachusetts had very detailed accusations. I don't know if there's anything quite that detail coming out of New England in the record from an accused.
    [00:36:24] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, incredibly detailed. She talked about her specific ritual acts, shape changing, using magic, things she did at the Kirk of Auldearn, communal sex with the devil. That was one. He had sex with her whole coven. And meeting and dancing with her coven. She talked about the fairies. She hit the greatest hits of everything. And she gave them all the information that they wanted to have. 
    [00:36:53] She explicitly said that the devil rebaptized her as Janet, that she had sex with him, [00:37:00] and that his member was great and long, and that younger women had greater pleasure in sex with the devil than with their own husbands. The idea of sex with the devil was really important to the Scottish witch trial confession logs that they would put together. And we also play with that a little bit in our show, that whole thing of this obsession with sex, which is fascinating to me, but also just strange.
    [00:37:27] Sarah Jack: We learned of some of that this fall when we talked to Mary Craig, that was really where I was introduced to what a big part of that history it is.
    [00:37:43] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Your interview with Mary Craig was one of my favorite interviews. She was a great resource.
    [00:37:47] Sarah Jack: You had a couple lines that the devil said that I loved, and the first is, "I get the credit and I don't have to do any of the work." And [00:38:00] I also, I thought it sounded just like him to say, "I've been here a while. You were nay paying me mind."
    [00:38:06] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It was fun to write for the devil. It was fun to write that character. And I have to be reminded that for in this world, that the devil was absolutely real. The fact that I personally don't believe that the devil exists doesn't matter. These characters believed that the devil existed, and it was a great and real threat. And that's the first thing that when I'm talking to modern people about this play, that they're like, "oh, really?" But the devil was a threat.
    [00:38:36] Josh Hutchinson: They didn't just believe in the devil. They believed that he was roaming around physically as a person and luring people over to his side to sign contracts with them, which I found interesting in the symbolism in Scotland of someone [00:39:00] becoming the devil's with the touching of the head and the foot. I found that to be very interesting also.
    [00:39:08] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: And claiming everything in between.
    [00:39:10] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
    [00:39:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I believe that was in Isobel's confession, as well, if I'm not mistaken.
    [00:39:18] Josh Hutchinson: I think that I read that in that scene. Where she says she's be been baptized as Janet. Yeah. Which I love the Janet and Janet show, because those names, I've listened to all of Witches of Scotland, and Janet and Jonet just come up again and again in the Scottish witch trials.
    [00:39:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, that's where I got that.
    [00:39:43] And it was also a happy accident that our actor who plays Janet in the Janet and Janet scene plays Isobel Gowdie and says, "no, I am Janet. You'll call me Janet." And so that was just another kind of discovery of another added layer of something cool.
    [00:39:58] Josh Hutchinson: Another [00:40:00] theme in there is the labeling of women as quarrelsome dames. And you took that from the reality.
    [00:40:11] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: There was a lot to mine. And I think that as a woman of my time, I relate to that a lot. And as I get older and feel like, yeah, I'm gonna take up as much space as I want in this world, I see how some people respond to that. We take the quarrelsome dame mantle pretty proudly. Would you say Meggie?
    [00:40:37] Meggie Greivell: Definitely, we are quarrelsome dames. 
    [00:40:41] Josh Hutchinson: Yay. 
    [00:40:42] Meggie Greivell: embrace it.
    [00:40:43] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm so happy to hear that.
    [00:40:46] Meggie Greivell: I think, yeah, as women, we've all experienced times where we've been told that we're too loud, too rude, too bossy, too something. That's an aspect right there that we still have [00:41:00] so far to come with in terms of misogyny. The accused women were called quarrelsome dames then, and now we're just called something else.
    [00:41:09] Josh Hutchinson: Now we see a lot with women politicians still getting labeled as witch.
    [00:41:16] Meggie Greivell: Yes, definitely like Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren and here in Scotland no, Nicole Sturgeon, the former Prime Minister of Scotland. She has been called a witch several times.
    [00:41:33] Josh Hutchinson: I've seen some of that, and it's just very inappropriate. It feels like men feel threatened when a woman comes into her power and can't just share responsibilities with women. You gotta feel threatened. They're taking over your job or something, but they're not, so [00:42:00] chill out dudes.
    [00:42:01] Meggie Greivell: Exactly. As a female director, I've encountered that over my career, as well, with being in a position of power in what is still male-dominated industry. Some pushback definitely.
    [00:42:17] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: It is interesting to write a piece that's like blatantly naming what most women agree is an experience of being responded to or being pricked by misogyny. It's interesting to encounter what that's like for an audience member who doesn't feel comfortable with that. I think that I'm comfortable with someone being uncomfortable with this piece.
    [00:42:46] And part of the reason why I infuse comedy or dark comedy into a subject like this is because that's one way that I can acknowledge that this is a I, [00:43:00] we all know what we're seeing here, right? We know what we're seeing. We're getting what we're seeing here. And it's just a way of acknowledging something that but just putting it into a vessel of communicating that is not a victimized place. That's a more of a an owning the power of what it means to be having this conversation at all.
    [00:43:25] Madeline: I think the way you wrote it, Laurie, with the kind of time shifts to the modern platform with like comedic elements allows us to take in the gravity of the reality of the situation. And I feel like in many ways, like comedy, is it the element of that is necessary in this piece. It's not like we're just diving into some disaster tourism situation, like we're getting into something that's relevant and related to now, and you give like those little plant the seeds so people are [00:44:00] making connections. So like why does addressing this thing that happened a long time ago matter now, and how is it still happening, and what are the ways that even in the same place, even in, how is that still showing up?
    [00:44:14] Because all of those pieces are still very much alive. And then there are other places in the world where like the reality perhaps even looks similar. But there's also that piece where like this history is a part of our history. And yeah, I feel like it makes it more accessible in a way to have the juxtaposition of that, of the conversation going on, like within the piece.
    [00:44:40] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Madeline, something you just said about the disaster aspect. Like I didn't, that's another thing I didn't want, I didn't want it to be torture porn. That's a terrible word, but I didn't want everybody, everyone to come and see a piece that lives in a place where women are being harmed for an hour or more.[00:45:00] That color and that kind of gut punch, that's not interesting, and it's abusive. It's an abusive thing to do. I wanted people to be able to come in and out of this space and our characters and their cast to be able to come in and out of this space, have a conversation that needs to be had, raise a voice that needs to be raised, and by the grace of something, let them exit that space and move, shift into something else.
    [00:45:24] And that, again, was a discovery along the way. But I felt it was important to lean into that as it was unveiling itself to us in the process. And our cast is doing a great job of navigating the kind of different colors of this piece. It's hard to describe, though. It's hard to explain, a piece about witch trials that has comedy in it. It seems a little hard to explain, but.
    [00:45:50] Meggie Greivell: The piece really does lift up all of the women and gives them their voice back. And I think that is the most powerful [00:46:00] part of this. And the last word in the play that Laurie wrote is, "and the rage." So we have that whole aspect of it. It's giving the voices back to these women. 
    [00:46:11] Madeline: Also wanna add that in the process, like the week that we were over there, Laurie and I were over there working with actors. She was like, "I want you guys to tap into this and then I want you to tap out, like physically, do hands up. Okay, I'm getting into this role. I'm putting this on for a moment. But we're not like doing this to each other. This is we're agreeing right now." There was just this like little element of consent exercise that happened, like for the actors. It was like this facilitated thing that was, it was just nice to come in and out like that as a cohort.
    [00:46:44] Sarah Jack: I just think undertaking this topic as a visual and audible presentation. It is such a layered undertaking, just like the history is, and you used the word [00:47:00] unveiling. It's an opportunity to unveil what we can't get everybody to acknowledge. I just keep thinking about the complexity of the reality, but then also, when I was reading through the script, there's just, all, Meggie said the double entendres, and then the iconic symbolisms, and you even got an apple in there with the devil, and the catchphrases, but then the puppetry and everything about it was just, I think it's such a remarkable piece of art. And thanks for putting it out there. It's important. It's so important.
    [00:47:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I really appreciate that. I was really nervous about kind of the tone shifts right out of the gate, and so I really appreciate that feedback. And if something didn't work, I would wanna know that too, right? Because I feel like this subject and these people and just the larger conversation needs to be right, [00:48:00] like the history needs to be correct. The level of respect needs to be correct, and I'm serving a bigger thing, which is why I'm so pleased to be working on this project.
    [00:48:12] Sarah Jack: I was gonna add, too, that whole comedy element, it's in the history. There's so many times where we're looking at these dispositions or different things we can read that were happening or people were saying, and you just are like, this can't even be real. It's sadly hysterical, and so I think that's a really great thread to be able to weave in to the storytelling, too, like you did.
    [00:48:37] Meggie Greivell: It was all so much about fake news being spread around, which Laurie has written that in so well into the play, as that's so relevant today.
    [00:48:47] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Honestly it was my, weirdly my way into this piece, 'cause I would say, I don't know how I'm gonna get into this piece, I don't know what my way in, I don't know what my way in is. And then it was, fake news. I was like, that to me, that was the [00:49:00] hook that got me started writing in the first place. 
    [00:49:03] I typically write musical theater pieces, and so when it came to the monologues that the women were doing, I didn't really know what to do. So I said, okay, I'm gonna treat this like it's a lyric. And if I were writing a lyric, I would just be brain draining all of my ideas about things that could be in a lyric. And then I would take that kind of dump of writing and find kernels inside of it to craft into a lyric. 
    [00:49:27] But I approached it in that way and I realized, oh no, this is the same approach, like they are having this moment of expression that is simply for their a mining of their emotional life at this moment of time when they're being when they're being interrogated. And it It felt the same to me as a song moment where it was, we call it sometimes in, in crafting musicals, theater, in crafting songs, a vertical expression instead of a long horizontal line. It's what is your thought? We're gonna go deeply into [00:50:00] this thought. And for me, it had a lyrical element in working it. And I think that's what I love about working with the puppets, too, is that the puppets to me have a lyrical element, too, because their movement is so expressive, and it's like the actors are singing the puppets alive.
    [00:50:18] Madeline: I'm curious now. I haven't seen the script in a long time and probably haven't seen the things until it was like puppet does something here. And then Laurie would come to me and be like, "so what can I do?" So it was fun, I was building even as we got to Scotland and was building the week that we had with the actors.
    [00:50:38]  I'm curious what it says now when you're reading it, Sarah, because I'm like, oh, that, like we developed those things together and like we didn't really know what it was capable of until we're like figuring out what it's capable of doing. Yeah, just a funny curiosity thinking like, how does that look on paper now?
    [00:50:59] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I don't think I [00:51:00] changed it in the script. I think the script just says, "the fox comes through" or that, yeah. But to Madeline's point about working collaboratively, I knew who the cast was before I had written a word of the play. So I was setting this piece onto this cast, and I was writing for the actors that I had, which is a really a luxury when you're a playwright to be able to write for actors that you know who they are. It's the best case scenario, I think. 
    [00:51:25] Madeline built The Accused, this woman puppet, which is gorgeous. And she built a fox, a cat, a jackdaw, and then a flock of jackdaws, a flock of 13 jackdaws. And the script, it just says that they sweep through, and some actors use them throughout the entire play, and they're just beautiful.
    [00:51:50] Sarah Jack: I wanted to give you guys the opportunity to read something from the script. 
    [00:51:55] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: Yeah, I'd love to. Would you like to hear the Unknown Woman or from [00:52:00] Marion Twedy?
    [00:52:01] Josh Hutchinson: I vote for Unknown.
    [00:52:04] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: This is an excerpt from the Unknown Woman. So in this monologue, by the time we get to this place, she's realized that there's no stone. No one knows who she is. She's been wiped off the face of the earth, for all practical purposes. She explains that she understands why she was accused, that she doesn't blame her accuser, but that she didn't do what she had been accused of.
    [00:52:30] And she's completely vulnerable at this point. So we hear the crescendo of a heartbeat, and she's alone. 
    [00:52:40] "Let me die, I think. I will tell them whatever it is they want to hear. If only I can get some rest. Only, but there is no rest for the wicked, they say. Am I wicked? I was baptized. I'm a Christian. My bairn was baptized, had a Christian burial. [00:53:00] How did it come to this? I'll tell them whatever it is they want to hear, I'll tell them, yes, no, whatever I'm supposed to say to make this nightmare end so I can sleep, so I can hold my bairn again. But there is no rest for the wicked. Let me die, I think. I want to die. I think. I think I'm dead, for here I am here in this purgatory. Is this purgatory or is this someplace worse? Some kind of purgatory with no hope of escape? Is this hell? There's no rest here, no bairn, no breath. I do not lay in consecrated ground. I have no stone. Ah, that explains it. That explains why nobody visits me. Nobody comes to weep or laugh or make a pencil rub or write a poem or mark a holiday.[00:54:00] Will I my soul, will my soul ever be allowed to be at peace? Will I ever hold my bairn again? You damned me to an eternity of what, what you damned yourself, they said. How? How? I made a charm the way my mother taught me, the way her mother taught her, the way her mother taught her. They said I danced with the devil. If I did dance, that's all I did, dance. I don't know what I did. I don't know anything anymore."
    [00:54:33] I didn't use Scottish dialect. I'm not gonna pretend to be Carys Turner, the beautiful performer who does that in our play.
    [00:54:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much.
    [00:54:44] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.
    [00:54:46] Josh Hutchinson: Wonderful. I just want to talk for a moment about how people can see the play. Can you tell us about how it's playing right now and any future plans that you have?
    [00:54:58] Meggie Greivell: Yes, so [00:55:00] it's right now we are on until the 25th at the Space on the Mile at 11:15 AM on odd days. We are hoping, really hoping, that it gets picked up for a tour in the UK and Scotland. We've had a few producers, so fingers crossed on that. And it will be filmed professionally on the 21st, so we will have it archived, and so we will have a film version of it, and we hope to bring it to the US, as well. Laurie hopes to bring it to the US, as well. So we just are right now, our fingers are just crossed that we can get it on a tour.
    [00:55:41] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: If anybody's interested in reading the play to produce a version of it, feel free to reach out to me, and I'd be happy to send a copy of the script.
    [00:55:50] Josh Hutchinson: It's such a powerful story that needs to be told. So I wish you all the best of luck getting it picked up for tours.[00:56:00] It's so good to give voices to the voiceless. So that's something that we want to do with the podcast, as well, is tell the stories of these people, even the unknown person that Sarah was talking about earlier, they need their story told. So I think you, I think that theater is an excellent way to introduce the story to audiences.
    [00:56:29] Sarah Jack: Is there anything else you wanted to be able to express today? 
    [00:56:34] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: The people who were prickers were individuals, and in our world they're represented by this kind of boogeyman character who's a pricker, not a specific individual.
    [00:56:47] Meggie Greivell: And he represents all of the men of the time who are abusing their power. 
    [00:56:52] Madeline: I maybe wanna add that there was a lot of deliberation that kind of went into landing on doing one woman puppet, [00:57:00] and we talked about making specific puppets for each of the actresses, of their like particular faces, sculpting off of their pictures. And yeah, it was just a vibrant conversation and we landed on this, but in a way also just thinking about honoring the larger experience, I think landing on one woman. 
    [00:57:21] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I would say that people respond to seeing that one puppet as a very universal creation and see themselves in it. I the feedback that we've gotten from people is that was the right thing and that it really is very resonant. I also wanna say that this piece is still alive, right? So it was created super collaboratively and quickly and generously by all of the collaborators that were involved. Meggie brought the idea, Madeline was part of it from the very beginning, and the students gave us a lot of feedback in the process of writing. First time that they saw a script, it was just [00:58:00] the first 30 pages. That was the first time we said, "okay, how do we feel about these tone shifts? How do we feel about the fact that it moves through time and space?" 
    [00:58:09] And we were all in agreement. As I went forward writing pages for them about what that would look like, they would come back to me and say, "we wish that the devil would come back." 
    [00:58:21] "Okay, what does that look like?" 
    [00:58:23] "We wanna see King James again." 
    [00:58:25] "What does that look like?" 
    [00:58:26] "What if the watcher in the next scene is the farmer watching his wife?" 
    [00:58:30] "Oh, that's a great idea. Let me see what that looks like." 
    [00:58:32] So those, and it's still a new work and I suspect that the next production will have edits, like a new play does when it goes into another iteration. So I'm really excited to see how this play continues to grow. And I would say that if anybody does wanna do this piece, that they should hunt down Madeline Helling to work on the puppets with them. 
    [00:58:52] Madeline: Well, and I'll say too on that note, like there was a lot of changes. She'd be like, "oh, I met with the cast. So this whole part has changed." Like every [00:59:00] time there was like a Zoom, there was like both of you could attest that there were many changes that were made. So on my end I kept being like, "okay, you're not ready for that part, so I'm just gonna hold off or build this thing and then change it." And just given our time constraint and like what I needed to craft, it was like, okay, I'm just, I was just like crafting at a pace that went with the ebb and flow.
    [00:59:22] Laurie Flangian-Hegge: I'm just grateful to Meggie for having this idea and bringing it, she, she actually, when she first in invited me to this piece, she said, "I just got back from having dinner at The Witchery." There's this restaurant called The Witchery in Edinburgh. It's a fancy, beautiful restaurant, but she said it's a restaurant called The Witchery on the grounds, essentially of where the witches were burned. And that felt off to you, would you say, Meggie? That felt.
    [00:59:50] Meggie Greivell: Yeah, that's how this all started. The first time I went to North Berwick too, when I'd never been there before, and I learned about the North Berwick witch [01:00:00] trials, and I was completely floored and disgusted. There was just a tiny little plaque in this old church by the sea about it, but nothing else.
    [01:00:10] And then from there I kept getting even more enraged. Like Laurie said, I went to The Witchery and my family, and it's this beautiful restaurant with exquisite dining options. But yeah it's where the witches, the women were burned. Not the witches. The women, or the women were burned.
    [01:00:29] And I also went on a tour, a ghost tour about a few months before I approached Laurie, and they pulled out thumbscrews that they, I replicated thumbscrews. I don't think they were real. And they took, were asking for volunteers to put them on, and I think they put them on me, and everyone was laughing and I was just disgusted this isn't funny but that's a problem with Edinburgh. It's very exploitative of the witch [01:01:00] trials and I know it's like that in Salem, as well. I just thought this is a story that needs to be told, and theater is what I do, so that is going to be the medium for it. And I reached out to Laurie on a whim, and I got lucky.
    [01:01:18] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary. 
    [01:01:22] 
    [01:01:29] Mary Bingham: Recently I suffered a situation which resulted in my feeling anxious, heartbroken, and most sadly not wanted. Luckily, I have a wonderful community of family, friends, and social services in which I can tap into if needed until I get back on my feet. I am grateful. 
    [01:01:49] This is not the situation for those women of Ghana accused of witchcraft. They are accused for causing sickness to their neighbors, weather [01:02:00] conditions to cause crop failures, among other things. Those women who are not beaten and burned alive for this crime they did not commit, were sent to one of six witch camps where their living situations were abhorrent at best.
    [01:02:15] I cannot begin even to fathom their feelings of total abandonment and betrayal at the hands of their neighbors and family members. Yes, family members. I shouldn't complain. I will survive. Some of these women will not, but there is hope. In 2005, ActionAid started to infiltrate these camps with basic life necessities. The advocates also educated these women and children, informing the women of their rights. In 2011, the women were thus able to stop the Ghana government from closing the camps the following year. Quick closure could result in homelessness [01:03:00] and possibly death by those wanting these innocent human beings dead. They spoke loud and strong using every media and social service at their disposal, increasing benefits for themselves to survive. 
    [01:03:15] For me, I look forward to the day when my living situation improves. However, I look more towards these women who survive circumstances I will never understand. They are the heroes along with the advocates who risk their lives to save the many for whom they advocate. Thank you.
    [01:03:34] 
    [01:03:42] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:03:43] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
    [01:03:47] 
    [01:03:53] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. We must continue to educate [01:04:00] against witch-hunt behavior and provide communities with the resources to feel safe together and to work together. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
    [01:04:14] Today, the victims of sorcery accusation related violence must not be nameless and disregarded. We may not know the names of men and women who were attacked today, but we know what is happening. We can speak about their stories and their innocence. We can continue to educate the world about which hunting today. We can acknowledge the crisis. Know that the victims have names, that they have lives, that they have plans, that they want their beautiful tomorrow. If you are in the position to positively impact the communities that experience witch-hunt behaviors in which attacks, stand in the gap with active advocates now.
    [01:04:46] I am descended from two well-known accused witches, one whose name was used in the iconic play of The Crucible by Arthur Miller. Rebecca Nurse is a name that is familiar with everyone who knows even a little about the Salem witchcraft trials. She said on the record, the [01:05:00] world will know my innocence. We do know her innocence, and we can name her as innocent by name. Rebecca Nurse
    [01:05:06] was not a witch. Some of the trials on record have accused identified only by their husband's surname as Goodwife or Goody. Goody Knapp, Goodwife Bassett. We do not know the given name of these women, but we do know that they were innocent of causing supernatural harm. Goody Knapp and Goodwife Bassett were not witches.
    [01:05:24] In the American colonies, we have primary sources indicating that at least one unknown person was accused of witchcraft crimes in Connecticut. Unknown was not a witch. Unknown was innocent. Although some names are recorded, the names of thousands of other imprisoned and executed alleged witch across Scotland are unknown. They were innocent. They were not witches. 
    [01:05:45] When we hear the name of Rebecca Nurse, Marion Twedy, and Isobel Gowdie or other named, executed witch trial victims, may we always see their unnamed sisters, the unknown victims standing there with them in history, unforgotten. Today, 70 years after The Crucible, [01:06:00] the play Prick is memorializing the thousands of women who suffered and died as unnamed alleged witches. This play recognizes them. It is a memorial to the unknown. We must remember them. Thank you, Prick, for honoring their memory in a significant and beautiful way, and for educating the world about witch trials through creative art. 
    [01:06:18] You are part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. Your listening and support is part of the work that keeps the critical conversation on ending witch hunts alive and expanding. When you share episodes with your friends, you are making an effort against violence. Having conversations about what is going on is an easy way that you can jump in to end witch hunts. Advocates worldwide are using their particular abilities, influence, and social network. And when you also listen and share, you are part of strengthening that network. It takes every mind, every voice, every small effort. You are a part of the world network that succeeds because of collaboration and collective efforts. When you speak up about sorcery accusation related violence, you will get questions [01:07:00] about the issue. Questions regarding violence against alleged witches can be scary, but we have your back. Not only have you garnered the answers by listening to the conversations on Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast, you can direct anyone to the program for more information. You can reach out to us with your questions and comments anytime. We are on all social media platforms and have a contact form on our website. Let us know how the conversation is going for you in your sphere of influence. We want to know. Reach out. 
    [01:07:26] Visiting our websites and the advocate websites listed in our show notes often is another way to stay up to date and support the work. To support us, make a tax deductible donation at endwitchhunts.org. Your support funds are witch trial history and advocacy education projects. You can purchase most of the books discussed on Thou Shalt Not Suffer episodes in our online bookshop, or you can buy it directly from the guest. We sell End Witch Hunts, Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project, and Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast t-shirts and coffee mugs online in our zazzle.com shop. Make a purchase to support us. 
    [01:07:59] Have you [01:08:00] considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining other listeners as a super listener? Thank you for adding our Super Listener program to the way you support us. Your super listener donation is tax deductible. Thank you.
    [01:08:13] 
    [01:08:19] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:08:21] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:08:22] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:08:28] Sarah Jack: Join us next week for another important episode.
    [01:08:31] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:08:34] Sarah Jack: I hope you're visiting us at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:08:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
    [01:08:42] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:08:48] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
    [01:08:51] [01:09:00] 
  • Dry Tinder with Author Janice C Thompson

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Meet author Janice C. Thompson. Her debut historical novel, Dry Tinder tells the story of Sarah Towne, aka Sarah Cloyce. We share an interesting conversation with Janice about the book, the characters, the meaning behind the title and the founding of Framingham, Massachusetts. She shares her experiences researching and writing historical fiction and self publishing. You will sense her love for local history and fascinating, character-driven stories as we discuss Salem Witch Trial events and individuals. Drawing from her metaphor of a tinder box ready for a spark, we address reasons why we witch hunt, how we witch hunt and how we stop hunting witches. Dry Tinder is out now, order your copy today. Purchasing link is below. 



    Author Janice C. Thompson website, and Dry Tinder book purchasing

    U.S. Strategy to Prevent Conflict and Promote Stability

    Join One of Our Projects

    Support Us! Buy Book Titles Mentioned in this Episode from our Book Shop

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Hello, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is Janice C. Thompson, author of the historical novel Dry Tinder: A Tale of Rivalry and Injustice in Salem Village.
    [00:00:37] Sarah Jack: Dry Tinder is a chance to step back in time and use your imagination to be with the Towne family and their experiences.
    [00:00:49] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. We're gonna learn about the Towne Sisters. 
    [00:00:53] Sarah Jack: Learn about the daughters of William and Joanna Towne, Rebecca, Mary, and Sarah.
    [00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: Especially Sarah. We'll also learn about the Putnam's and Thomas Danforth.
    [00:01:09] Sarah Jack: A magistrate we don't often hear of or talk about.
    [00:01:13] Josh Hutchinson: Who was at the examination of Sarah Cloyce, the protagonist of Dry Tinder.
    [00:01:22] Sarah Jack: And who also founded the town that some of the refugees from the Salem Witch Trials reestablish themselves in.
    [00:01:31] Josh Hutchinson: We learn about the founding of Framingham, Massachusetts, where Sarah Cloyce and her husband Peter settled after the Salem Witch trials and changed their last name to Clayes.
    [00:01:46] Sarah Jack: There isn't much there historically to tell the story, but there is a road named Salem End Lane.
    [00:01:57] Josh Hutchinson: And one thing that we keep encountering is just how much people care about the legacy of the Towne sisters, even people with no relation. And we know that there are quite a lot of descendants. The Towne Family Association is very active and regularly does trips back to Salem and Framingham.
    [00:02:22] Sarah Jack: Yes, there are individuals who have contributed to the preservation of the history, the physical history of the Towne family, as well as, making sure the story is told.
    [00:02:38] Josh Hutchinson: One thing that really interested me in this interview, as a writer, is we got to talk to Janice about her experience as a first time author and first time writing a historical fiction work and the challenges involved in that and the self-publishing process.
    [00:03:02] Sarah Jack: And now you get to hear from her, Janice Thompson, a writer and also the co-founder of Harpswell News in Harpswell, Maine. She's a lover of local history and fascinating character-driven stories. Her first novel, Dry Tinder, is based on the true story of the Towne sisters-- three innocent, godly women falsely accused of witchcraft in 1692. As told through the perspective of Sarah Towne, the story becomes personal. 
    [00:03:28] Josh Hutchinson: Can you tell us a little bit about your background?
    [00:03:32] Janice C Thompson: Sure. First I have no relation to the Towne family, to my characters. People are thinking, they call me cousin, the Towne family descendants, which is cute.
    [00:03:43] Josh Hutchinson: I just wanted to mention that Sarah and I are both Towne descendants.
    [00:03:48] Janice C Thompson: Oh, nice.
    [00:03:49] Josh Hutchinson: I'm a Mary Esty, and she's Mary and Rebecca.
    [00:03:53] Janice C Thompson: Okay. Wonderful. Well, A lot of people are, and I thought, why am I so obsessed with this story? So I actually, I did that genealogical. I'm like, I must, this blood must be in me. But it's not, but I feel like I'm an honorary Towne at this point
    [00:04:11] Sarah Jack: I love that. There tends to be this draw and protection towards those sisters from even outside the family. And it always means a lot to me to see that. I think that's really amazing.
    [00:04:25] Janice C Thompson: I play in the local concert band. I play trombone. And there is a Nurse in the band, and I gave her the book at the end of the rehearsal last week, and I was in tears. I'm like, "you really need to have this book." So it's meaningful to me, too.
    [00:04:42] Josh Hutchinson: You said you've been working on this book for 20 years. How did you come to write this?
    [00:04:47] Janice C Thompson: In 2004, my then husband and my two year old child moved into a home in Ashland, Massachusetts, which is about 25 miles directly west of Boston. It's a bedroom community for Boston, a commuter town. And it abuts, it's right next door to Framingham. Most people know of Framingham, not Ashland. It's between Framingham and Hopkinton. Hopkinton is where the Boston Marathon starts, so people know that and they know Framingham. 
    But anyway, one of the things that really sold us on this house is that it abutted 800 acres of conservation forest with marked trails. Actually, there was a trailhead, like a trail spur that went right into our yard. So we'd often see people come out, they're like, oh, we shouldn't be here. But anyway, just very quickly, after we bought the house, some neighbors came over and we had some coffee, and they said, "oh, have you been to the witch caves out back your house?" And I said, "I don't know what that is." And they said, "oh, yes, it's, the witches escaped from Salem during the trials, and that's where they lived. They hid out in those caves." And I'm thinking, "that's weird because I'm 30 miles southwest of Salem and Salem Village, Danvers, and why would they do that? That seems really weird."
    So I looked into it thinking that it was probably an urban legend. Come to find out there was some truth to it, that the story goes that Thomas Danforth, who was the deputy governor the year before, during the trials, good friends with Samuel Sewell, oversaw Sarah's initial examination. This was before the Court of Oyer and Terminer. He oversaw this and put her in jail. And as we all know, Mary and Rebecca were hanged, and Sarah survived just because it was good timing, as we know how. 
    Anyway, so she was let go, and then the next thing, she and her extended family, so there were some Bridges and there were some Nurses and there all the names that we know left Salem Village and they settled this wilderness to the west of Boston that was owned, these acres, thousands of acres were owned by Thomas Danforth. They had been granted to him by the colony, but he was the treasurer of Harvard. So he was always a Cambridge man. He never settled the lands. So these people came, and they settled the place. They built a meeting house, they had a burying ground, and they ended up incorporating the town of Framingham in 1700. And they called it Framingham because Thomas Danforth was from Framlingham in England. I also found out that these people had built their homes and farms along a road that still exists that's called Salem End Road. And that's the reason why, because they were from Salem. 
    [00:07:50] Sarah Jack: Is there anything about the experience of writing a first book that you would like to share? What that is like?
    [00:08:01] Janice C Thompson: It's really hard. It's harder than I thought. And part of it is because I really wanted it to be authentic. I'm a reader. I love historical fiction. And what my pet peeve is that someone might say, oh, I'm gonna set this story in New York City in the 1880s, say, and then the characters all speak like we do. And you don't really get that sense of place and time. And so I really wanted to be authentic. And as you might have seen in the appendices, I did take liberties with some of the characters just because I can't write about people having 12 kids and having 12 characters. You know, I just can't do that.
    It was hard, because I was struggling with the truth of it but also having a book that people wanted to read that was accessible. I remember showing it to Margo early on, and she said, "Janice you can't have your characters talk like they actually did, because it's very off-putting, it's not accessible."
    And then I was also trying to figure out, like we have, we're in the 21st century. We have this cultural and social perspective as a result of being in the modern society. And I count myself as a feminist and I fight the man and all of that. But if you are in, if you're Sarah and Mary and Rebecca, and you're in that society in that time, would you even question anything?
    Now we know in the fifties and sixties women were starting to say, "no, I don't wanna, I don't like this. I don't, I wanna live a different kind of life. I'm unhappy. I'm unfulfilled." But if you're out 300 plus years ago, and you're in the wilderness, and you don't know if you're gonna make it through the winter, and you are also in this very patriarchal society, would you even complain?
    So I really wanted Sarah to be this rebel. But I also wanted it to be authentic. So I was really trying to add more nuance to all of their characters, because nothing in this story, as you probably know, is black and white. A lot of people say, "oh yeah, these girls were evil." I think that they would have PTSD, and they were suffering too. It's not black and white. And you see that all the time in movies and plays, and I just didn't wanna write that kind of book. And I also really wanted to set it up, this context, starting 20 years before that sets up this tinderbox.
    And that's actually one of the reasons why I self-published, because the literary agents who were interested in the story said, "I'll take this on, but you have to cut out everything except for just the drama of what happened in 1692. That's what people wanna read. And it has to be accessible. It has to be mass marketed. It has to, you have to sell a lot of copies."
    I would love for this to be a bestseller, of course, but I also wanted to write the story I wanted to write. So it was very difficult to say to these professionals, "I think I know better about my book than you do," especially as a first author with a first book. Who am I to do that? So yeah, it was fraught. It was really fraught. I'm starting to write another story that was like set in the nineties in Boston. That's not historic at all. That is so easy. You just say, woo. "What do I want my character to say right now?" It's like I could just make it up. But here I didn't wanna do it, so it was hard, and I don't think I'm ever gonna do it again, not this kind of story. Because I just was so engrossed with it, loved it all, but yeah ready to get it out there into the world.
    [00:11:50] Josh Hutchinson: I can relate to a lot of that. I started writing my first novel towards the end of 2008, and I haven't got it ready for publishing yet. Other things keep happening and
    [00:12:05] Janice C Thompson: Oh yeah.
    [00:12:06] Josh Hutchinson: then you've gotta start over.
    [00:12:08] Janice C Thompson: That was one of the issues too, 'cause I've always had to have a full-time job. And I have this notebook this thick with my notes, but you're right. You let it go, and then you have to start all over again. You have to say, "who are these characters? I have forgotten."
    And then you get really into it, but then life happens, and you can't focus on it anymore. So that's the reason why I really didn't wanna work at a day job. I wanted to just get to it. That didn't happen. Since we've been up here, I haven't had a full-time job, so I did have more time to focus on it. 
    [00:12:41] Josh Hutchinson: That's great, and I'm glad that you did it. And I really like the attention to detail in there. And you talked about, you started the story 20 years beforehand to give the background and I think that's so important, because a lot of people just don't understand why the Salem Witch Trials happened.
    [00:13:04] Janice C Thompson: Yes.
    [00:13:05] Josh Hutchinson: They try to look at things like Margo's favorite thing, that ergot, and it's not that simple. 
    [00:13:10] Janice C Thompson: love to be in the room when someone asks her about that, because she's very good at hiding her disdain as she responds to that. But yes, and I also find that, in the various depictions and throughout the ages, it's like, it's an anomaly. It just happened and it was mysterious and, yeah, maybe there was poisoning, we don't quite know. But, and then it just disappeared into thin air. 
    The whole cover of the book is the map of this disputed territory. I actually started it 40 years before, but I did have to cut it down a little bit. And I focused in the original version, I focused more on that boundary dispute, but, I remember it was Marilynne who said, and she read the beginning of it too. And she said, "Janice, you and I are fascinated by this sort of stuff, but it gets very complicated, and I don't think a lot of people would like to know this much detail." So that was one big edit that I did. I cut out like maybe 50 pages. That was painful 'cause I liked the 50 pages, but I did want people to get engaged in it right off the bat.
    And so when I had this scene come into my head, and it was very clear to me, a nice spring day, Sarah's walking along the river with a baby. And once that hit, once that got into my head, I'm like, okay, this is where I'm going to start. But yeah, it was difficult. And also if my eighth grade creative writing teacher could hear you, that would be very lovely because I just remember he used to say details, throw in the details, make the reader feel and hear what these characters are doing. So I learned that in eighth grade. 
    [00:15:01] Sarah Jack: As a descendant and a, possibly because I'm a female as well, the beginning really did pull me in a very nostalgic way, because you meet Sarah first, her motherhood, she's by herself looking for a little wiggle room from the what's pressing in on the women in that society, just in her own outfit and her hair. And then I got to listen to her and her sisters have a conversation in a kitchen. How amazing was that? I was so fascinated. I loved that I could picture Rebecca, Rebecca taking Hannah, Mary working, Sarah trying to relax from the situation that had just happened with her beverage. I just loved it.
    [00:15:50] Janice C Thompson: Oh, thank you. I myself have four sisters. I'm in the middle, like Sarah, and this is probably one of the, one of the reasons why I resonated with her, because I'm very close with my sisters. We're a very tight-knit family, and they're a lot different than I am. For example, they're very religious and I'm not, so I was inhabiting Sarah at that point when she said, "why can't I be more like my sisters?" That's an experience that I've had for a very long time. So you have to walk that line between intense love and devotion and frustration, and that's what I wanted to bring out and even in that initial conversation, because Sarah was getting annoyed with them, when they chastised her for taking off her cap.
    [00:16:39] Josh Hutchinson: That whole episode with the cap is so indicative of the kind of details that you put in there that really ground people in the time. So I think it was very important how you give a subtle explainer of what life is like in the 17th century for women without just doing a big data dump.
    [00:17:03] Janice C Thompson: Well, and that's why these resources were so helpful. Like I have books, you probably saw in the bibliography, I think there were a hundred listings there, but some of them were like life in the Colony in the 1600s and that's what I really wanted to see. I really wanted to find out. 
    You know how they have those huge fireplaces with the iron thing across it that they hung pots from? I didn't know what that was called, and I didn't wanna say, oh, that iron thing that goes across, so I did a little bit quick research, and it's a crane, it's called a crane. So I'm like, "and so Sarah hung this pot on the crane." And for example, like how did they get around? Did they have a wagon? Did they have to hire a wagon? Did they have horses? 
    Going up to the Rebecca nurse homestead and just being able to sit there and absorb that house, which we're so lucky that it's still there. All of those resources were enormously helpful. And it was fun. I used to like it. It's, "oh, I don't know that. So let's do a little bit of Google research and figure it out." At one point they're doing like, I was wondering about games, for example, did they even have games? And then I learned about this glyphs that it's like the tongue twisters that we have, that was a, that was like what they did in the 1500s. And so I want all of those things I wanted to add into it to just add layers to it. 
    [00:18:34] Josh Hutchinson: It gets you into the world, so you see what the characters are experiencing, what they're up against, and yeah, it's very helpful. So you mentioned that you start the novel early. What years does the novel cover?
    [00:18:50] Janice C Thompson: It starts 22 years before, so that was 1670. So that was just about the time when William died. And then I play up the whole thing about Joanna being thought of as a witch and it was known that witchcraft it would go from mother to daughter. And I was thinking what was that about? 
    Some scholar had traced that actual scene about when the minister drinks too much ale and that went to trial, and so when, in my book, when they're at trial, some of that is lifted verbatim from that transcript of that particular trial. That's one of the things that I then grabbed onto. It's okay, I wanna make Joanna be a rebel as well, but I wanna also explain whether, if people thought that she was a witch, why didn't she get arrested for it?
    And in my book, it's because she went inward and she's I'm not gonna deal with anybody anymore because I'm so upset. So I wanted to bring that out. But William had died, and so I figured maybe she went a little bit bonkers in grief, maybe she changed her own personality because now he's gone. And I envisioned that he was a, an evening factor for her but without him she didn't know how to act anymore. So I wanted to bring that in. So I started at 20, in 1670 when, so Sarah is married to Edmund Bridges, and she has just had her first baby, Hannah. 
    [00:20:38] Sarah Jack: I think that is a really relatable time in a family's life that people can connect with. When the head of a family is gone, it's a huge adjustment for the widow, for the descendants. So that would've already started a transition in their lives.
    [00:21:01] Janice C Thompson: yeah. I was trying to trace all of the, that went down through the years, the uncertainty and the fear, and when people live in that kind of environment, which by the way we're living in today, people make bad decisions, and they act out of fear. And yes, you're absolutely right, when it's this close-knit family and the patriarch has died.
    And I think of this family, this extended family, as a very close family that's a little bit different than other families, because they just kept having babies because they needed to people to till the fields and all of that. Children were seen and not heard. But I envisioned the Towne family as somewhat different than that. Again, totally fabricated. This is the fiction part, that how do they do that and still be in this very rigid society? But I do think that William's dying was a catalyst for at least Joanna getting into trouble.
    [00:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: And I wanted to ask what's the significance of the title, Dry Tinder?
    [00:22:12] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. When that, it's funny because whenever I do marketing all the time, and so I'm always thinking of designs and headlines and when we do an appeal for the annual fund, or we're doing this kind of brochure or we're doing this e-blast and whatever, and usually my creative process with that is it just comes to me. It'll just, like, all of a sudden I'll be like, "okay, I want this." We're working on a booklet now. It's a tasting book for an event that I'm doing. And it's okay, I know what it's supposed to be. Throughout the entire writing of this book, the title wasn't coming to me. And I always said, it doesn't matter, because I'm so far away from publication that I don't care.
    But when I thought of Dry Tinder about a year ago, and I, it really caught on because I'm trying to describe a tinder box. So in the appendices, I say something like a carelessly lit match to dry tinder, the conflagration that follows is not a surprise. So that's where it came from.
    That said, I had to struggle with it, because one of the many misconceptions about this story is that these people were burned at the stake, and Dry Tinder connotes that. But I was so married to the title that I just decided to do it anyway.
    [00:23:36] Josh Hutchinson: I think it's apt for the way that the conflagration of the witch trials happened. Starts with little spark and then it just, the flames fan out everywhere.
    [00:23:50] Janice C Thompson: And I tried to pepper the whole thing with oh, she, the anger that ran through her felt a flame or I tried to bring that theme in a couple of little, a little places. But yeah, I do think that that's the thing that fascinated me the most, because I've been fascinated with this story for whatever reason my whole life.
    And so when I started doing that research, I researched it back to England in the 1620s. In the beginning, I even had like backstories about William and Joanna when they were just meeting in their church, and because I kept going back, and I kept going, 'cause I can see the thread, but I just figured I have to stop somewhere.
    In fact, I'm not gonna do this, but it would be fun to to do a prequel to about William and Joanna and where they came from. The whole Thomas Danforth, I cut 50 pages outta that backstory. I had the whole thing about how he grew up in in Framlingham and about his parents and all of this. So there is more on the cutting room floor than is in the book right now. 
    So that's the thing that fascinated me. It's duh, I could've, in hindsight you could see, yeah, something's gonna happen in this society that's not gonna be fun. Makes me worry about today, I have to say. Like, where is this all gonna lead to?
    I was actually not as interested. The trials were like the same. Every single one was the same. They'd say, "oh, why are you hurting this girl?" "I'm not." "Obviously you are." It, how many times can you write that? How many times can you write it so that it's different every time?
    That's the reason why I didn't go into the three trials, 'cause they were the same. Some of it had some twists. Like Rebecca, they said she was fine, she was innocent, and then they said, no, go back and try again. So there were little things that were different. But I really didn't, I didn't wanna write that. It bored me. 
    [00:25:49] Josh Hutchinson: We've talked about the Towne sisters. Who were some of the other main characters?
    [00:25:57] Janice C Thompson: The, so they're the sisters, and then of course there's the Putnam clan. And I set it up, even though we know there are a lot of other people who were living there, I set it up as a rivalry between the Townes and the Putnams and who were their fans or their friends or whatever. So those were the main characters. 
    But then, and this was another choice too, I really wanted to write about Thomas Danforth and Samuel Sewell, because I know that Samuel Sewell is famous. You could read the apology that he's famous for giving a public apology many years later. In fact, I used to work at the Boston Athenaeum, which is right across the street from the State House, and you can see a portrait, a painting of Samuel Sewell in the State House giving that apology.
    I was so intrigued with what I first found out about, like, why did Thomas Danforth invite this family? I really wanted to talk about Danforth. There's not a lot written about him. And when I was at the Athenaeum, I remember talking to the curator of paintings and sculpture, and he looked into it and he said, "yeah, Thomas Danforth doesn't have a formal portrait done," which is very unusual for magistrates at that time. That's an interesting little tidbit. We hear about Cotton Mather, we hear about Samuel Sewell, but we don't hear that much about Danforth. But he was right there. So I brought him in halfway through and the ministers, and that was another part that that's based on reality that these ministers and these magistrates actually went back and used the Bible, passages in the Bible, to belie the thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
     So I just love that sort of intellectual exercise of these ministers. They had a fine line to walk, because they believed in evil, in the devil, in witchcraft, but then they thought maybe that's not happening here, and that's a cognitive dissonance there. So how did they make that dissonance go away? And they did it through biblical texts. So I really wanted to bring those in, those people in, too. I just thought that was interesting.
    So there were the Boston contingent, the Boston and Cambridge contingent, the power structure. And then it was these poor people in this little village. So those were my main characters.
    [00:28:25] Josh Hutchinson: Which makes me think of your appendices. You also have bios in there for the characters, so something people can refer to as they're reading. 
    [00:28:38] Janice C Thompson: Because I've talked to the people like Margo and Marilynne and Tad Baker and Bernie Rosenthal. I didn't want them to poo poo like to say, ugh, this is just fiction and whatever. So I figured I would bring it up in the appendices about the difference between this story and what was real. Like a beef that I have with The Crucible is that Arthur Miller names that hanging judge, who we know is William Stoughton. He named him Thomas Danforth. And so now a lot of people, they think it's, oh yes, Thomas Danforth was the hanging judge. And that's what happens when you write fiction. People don't understand that it's fiction. So I just wanted to underscore that I want to have some creative license, but I also don't want to perpetuate lies. So that's why I thought it was important to put that in.
    [00:29:38] Sarah Jack: I think it's so great because we need that creative license. It's a teaching mechanism too, and, but people do need to learn to be able to recognize and do their own look into the history. We want people to have that critical thinking that they can enjoy historical fiction but not get confused, and we have to teach them that. And your book is a great example of how it can be done.
    [00:30:11] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. Marilynne's book, the Six Women of Salem, does it very well, too, because she does that like those beginning chapters. She would just come up with a scene of, Rebecca was, carrying the water, whatever. You can breathe life into these characters.
    We don't really know how they work, but we have some evidence, through transcripts and all of that. I just want it to be true to the story, but not mislead. The Crucible thing, Margo talks about this too, that, John Proctor was supposedly having an affair with Abigail. It was not Daniel Day Lewis, that was not John Proctor. So yeah, that was important to me.
    [00:30:52] Josh Hutchinson: People do get some wrong ideas from historical fiction, interpreting it as history when you know you have to have that creative license, because we don't have a hundred percent of the details of these people's lives. So of course you've got to connect the dots and fill in the blanks.
    [00:31:15] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.
    [00:31:18] Sarah Jack: What would you like readers to take away from your book?
    [00:31:21] Janice C Thompson: That's a good question. If I look at it from a macro level, I think that I would like for people to think about what ignorance and fear and uncertainty can do to a community. And again, I'm looking through my current day eyes, because we have to really be careful. It could easily happen today.
    On a more personal level, at the sort of coming down from 30,000 feet, I want people to fall in love with these sisters. I want them to think, "I wish I had those sisters," and I want people to understand how, again, things are not black and white sometimes, and it's important to just remember that. And I just, I want people to really enjoy it, too. It's hard when you're into a story that's based on research to write something that would actually be enjoyable and it's not gonna be like a history lesson. I want people to not be able to put this book down. And a number of people have told me that, and that's what I want. I'm not doing this to get rich. 
    [00:32:42] Josh Hutchinson: People are drawn in to Salem with this kind of glamorous, romanticized view of everything, and it's just so important once they're drawn in to make sure that they're leaving with the right lessons.
    [00:32:58] Janice C Thompson: But my book, it is pretty serious. I was at a book signing here locally yesterday, and it Harpswell is a very touristy place. It's a tiny little town, but it doubles in population with our summer residents and then tourist, because it's beautiful. It's like a postcard. So I was at one of these gift shops with all the tourists, and somebody said, "why would I wanna read this book? It's so sad. It's so down." I said, "yeah, but it's okay 'cause you'll be dazzled with my writing style. So that'll even out the subject matter." Yeah.
    [00:33:34] Josh Hutchinson: There you go.
    [00:33:36] Janice C Thompson: Yeah. And the thing is, too, there is redemption with Thomas Danforth saying, "I apologize." But it is sad, because I think she lost her religion. And it would be nice to say that everyone lived happily ever after, but they didn't. They changed their name to Clayes when they went to Framingham, and the story is that she never left the house, that she became housebound, because she couldn't deal with people and she's, we think that she's in the burying ground. It's 1704 and then it just says S. So she didn't, even if she's even buried there, she didn't want anybody to come visit her. So that's a really sad story. These families were destroyed.
    I'm hoping that sort of scene with a redemption with Thomas Danforth will be enough of a Oh, okay. Okay. There's some little bright spot at the end, and it's just that it's not that everybody just died and everybody was sad and, yeah, but she only lived like another 10 years. She didn't live very long in Framingham.
    [00:34:50] Josh Hutchinson: And I know she must have suffered in jail and losing her sisters. The suffering must have been so intense. I can understand why you might be reclusive and not wanna go out where people might accuse you again.
    [00:35:08] Janice C Thompson: Yes. Yes. Yes, that's what I imagine. Do you know the book, Currents of Malice? It's about Mary, but it's about the whole family. And there are some chapters in the end where the families, the surviving members of the families were trying to get Parris out. They were trying to get recompense, they were trying to get retribution. 
    And Peter was part of that, but he left, the other, they said, "oh, he's left the area." And I imagine that must've been difficult for him, too, because, yeah, you want to be there, you wanna get revenge, you wanna, but then who wants to be in this community? Who you thought was your close knit? You thought they were your family, family in Christ, and who would just turn on you? And then there was no repercussion. Like these people, the accusers were never brought to trial. They just went away, or they just stayed there. There was no retribution.
    I can understand. You just wanna get out of dodge and try to forget it. She was also devastated, and I could understand why she would never wanna go outta the house.
    [00:36:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we, when we talked to Rachel Christ-Doane, we were talking to her about Dorothy Good's life after the trials and how tragic a story that continued to be. And I think that was sadly the way it was for so many of the families and individuals. How do you just go back to normal life after that? 
    [00:36:42] Janice C Thompson: One of the things that was very inspiring was that PBS Three Sovereigns for Sarah. And I thought it was interesting, because at the end they were talking about, what happened to different people, and those girls did not live good lives afterward. They were pretty tragic.
    And it also supports the theory that they had PTSD. And I imagine, once the hysteria died down, knowing that you just accused these people probably added to the trauma. Because a lot of them didn't have families. A lot of them were refugees. They were maids. They didn't have any agency at all. 
    [00:37:23] Sarah Jack: I think about the young age of some of the afflicted and even the ones that were women but young. And then you look at the timeline of when hangings ended, with witch accusations, did these girls, women ever look back and think there were adults overseeing what was going on? I don't know. It wasn't like they grew up and then they continued to be part of hanging witches for the rest of their lives. 
    [00:37:50] Janice C Thompson: I think that they were sorely manipulated by their parents. That's why I have the scene where the girls are upstairs and they're hearing downstairs the conversation about Rebecca, and then all of a sudden Rebecca's being called out on. I do think that was probably part of it.
    And again, there was no sort of social safety net afterward. They didn't have, the Putnams had, they had families, but, I'm talking about Abigail herself and Mary Warren and people who just, they were servants. And I imagine that you get older you know and you think, "oh my God, what did I do?" I also imagine that they probably, they might've been ostracized by the very people who manipulated them. Because, again, the tide was turning, and there were people thinking, "oh, this is was not a good thing after all." So I actually in a way feel sorry for those girls. It wasn't that all of a sudden evil sprang in these kids and then they decided to just put people to death. I don't think that's what happened.
    [00:38:54] Josh Hutchinson: I think they were such vulnerable people. A number of them you mentioned were refugees from the wars in Maine and had seen their families get killed and managed to escape. But, they're totally devastated like by that for the rest of their lives. 
    [00:39:16] Janice C Thompson: They're alone. They don't have, they have to work, 12 year olds, in a community where, in a society where you don't have any agency as a young person yeah. I do think that there's this sort of group think that happens like that.
    [00:39:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm kin to Mercy Lewis. I appreciate that people taking a more balanced view of the afflicted. We have to understand the accuser side to understand why the witch trials happened and why things like that happen today. You have to understand both sides. You can't only understand the victim side.
    [00:39:57] Janice C Thompson: Yes. That's right. Yep.
    [00:39:59] Josh Hutchinson: You mentioned early on that we're living in a time today that's not unlike the times of yesterday. So how, what sort of parallels are you seeing?
    [00:40:13] Janice C Thompson: Again, when there is a lot of uncertainty and fear, people make bad decisions. And so for example, today there is a lot of economic inequality, and while I don't agree, I understand that people who have suffered the most from that inequality feel angry and afraid. And when you're in that state, it's easier to say, "I'm just gonna find a scapegoat." They're suffering from a bigger picture of inequality, of the money goes to the owners and, blah, blah, blah. 
    So I think that's what's happening. And that's why we're so polarized, because we both think both sides of the politic, like we're, it's the other side that's gonna hurt it. Look at the rhetoric. Some of the rhetoric is just crazy. And you're like, where did you come up with that? But again, if you're acting out of fear and anger, that's what happens. And I do think that's what was happening. 
    I was very interested in, I think it was Nissenbaum and Boyer. They were talking about the sociological aspects of things and the fact that Thomas Putnam, Jr. was expecting a big inheritance from his father. And that's true. The father didn't give him anything. And then it was the same thing that happened with Mary Carr. So these two people who were expecting to be moving up in the world and having all this money now doesn't get the money and God forbid his stepbrother is getting the money instead. And then they look at people like the Nurses who were very poor in Salem Town and then all of a sudden own this big farm. What's up with that? Why are you getting ahead? And that could be very scary. And I think that was what motivated the Putnams, 'cause they were losing power in the community. So I think there are a lot of parallels.
    [00:42:27] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I think what you talked about with the economic stress there is an important factor in why the witch trials happened. What are some of the other key factors we should know about? What was in the Tinderbox? 
    [00:42:44] Janice C Thompson: So there's the economic discrepancies, there's the border disputes that, that south of the Ipswich River. That's why I feature it in the map. There was the strict, the religious restrictions. There were the wars, worried about making it through the winter, and not being able to agree on a minister. That is weird. Because this whole community couldn't figure out, couldn't decide on a minister. And that was unusual in the colony. Usually they would have ministers who would stay there for life, what's up with that? What's going on in Salem Village? 
    But I think the thing that was the tipping point was when the colony lost the charter. Because you've had this government for what, 40, 50, 60 years. You've created courts, you've created structures. And then now it's okay, you don't have a charter. You might get a charter, or you might not. So your governmentless at that point. And I think that was the tipping point and then also, by the way, the whole thing about the halfway covenant that was happening in the church as well, that.
    It's just so funny because when you hear the rhetoric then about, oh, kids these days, they're worse than we were. That's happening today. It happens with every, single generation. So there were some people, some ministers who said, let's come up with this Halfway Covenant so that we can bring more people into the church, because there's now more lying and fornication and thievery and all of that sort of stuff. People are moving away from God, which is another one of those pillars that people count on, and you take that away, too, and so then there were the conservative ministers like Parris saying, Uhuh, we're not gonna have the halfway Covenant. You need to follow those laws. You need to have evidence for your conversion experience and all of that. So there was a lot of tenuousness in the church, as well. I think those are the elements to the tinderbox.
    [00:44:50] Josh Hutchinson: I think that's so important you brought that point up, because we think of Puritan Massachusetts as being this very homogenous society where the rules were set from the top, but no, you had different congregations, and they weren't always in agreement with each other. 
    [00:45:11] Janice C Thompson: I also think it's the town and country thing. In Salem town, this is a port city, and so you're getting ships coming from Spain and Barbados, and there were black people, there were people speaking different languages. There were the merchant class who were making money off of building a ship and then getting a piece of all of that haul.
    And that's what happens today here, too. It tends to be the cities on the coasts. It's more diverse. And so when you're rubbing shoulders with people who are very different from you, you learn how to get along, like that there are actually other ways of looking at the world, but then you're dealing with Salem Village, and they're the farmers, that's why I tried to have when Sarah went with Edmund to have their ordinary in Salem town, like she was hearing a lot of that stuff. So she was, in my mind, she's like more worldly than the Putnams, say. 
    And again, that's what's happening today. So when you don't have diversity of thought you can very easily just have not necessarily good or truthful ways of looking at the world. When you're not in a diverse area, you're not encouraged to think differently. For me, in my life, I grew up in upstate New York and in a very religious family. I just didn't know anything different, because it was quite an insulated, insulated community. And then when I go to college, Oh my God. At lunchtime people would be coming from their classes and say, oh my God, did you hear about Prohibition? Or, oh, I just learned about this new mathematical theory or whatever. It like leads to this kind of intellectual discussions, which some people hate. But for me, it opened up my whole perspective, because I started talking with people who are not me, who are not like me. And when you don't have that opportunity, it's easy to be insular in your thinking.
    [00:47:28] Josh Hutchinson: I thought that ordinary was such a good setting to have early in the story, because of that very reason. There's all these different people from different backgrounds. It shows you that it wasn't just the English Puritan people 
    [00:47:46] Janice C Thompson: Yes. 
    [00:47:46] Josh Hutchinson: Salem. There were other people from, and people in Salem had been to far -flung places.
    [00:47:54] Janice C Thompson: And that part of the story was actually true. But it also was a great construct, because a woman in the colony would not be interested or even have access to discussions about politics. And but Sarah had her overhearing the magistrates who were coming. And so that was that. She set me up with a great construct to do that. 
    [00:48:18] Josh Hutchinson:  Did you have anything in particular you wanted to be sure to talk about today?
    [00:48:24] Janice C Thompson: I really hope that people enjoy it, and I hope people will get something out of it. Genealogical connection is so important to me, even though I'm not a descendant. I think, again, spending time with the Towne family, there's this continual closeness in this family. And people get very emotional about it. 
    Marker
    [00:48:45] Janice C Thompson: When I was back in Framingham, I was the president of the Framingham History Center and we did this program called Voices in the Burying Ground around Halloween, even though it wasn't scary, and I reenacted Sarah complete with the outfit and everything. So we had the people of note who were buried in that cemetery. The tour would go around and visit the different graves, and we would talk about this and everything. And a bunch of the Towne Family Association members came up from Connecticut to see this. And this little girl, eight year old girl, comes up and says, "oh, hi Aunt Sarah." And she starts asking me questions and that's so cool. At the same time, I want this story to resonate with people who are not Townes, and so far that seems to be happening. 
    Marker
    [00:49:38] Janice C Thompson: And I want people to write me reviews on Amazon, because that's the thing. I'm selling a lot of books myself, but those reviews are the things that get the public to be interested. This has really been a labor of love, and I hope that comes through. 
    [00:49:55] Josh Hutchinson: We encourage listeners to please do that. Pick up a copy of the book, read it, review it. That will help get the story out there. And where can people pick up the book?
    [00:50:09] Janice C Thompson: It's in hardcover, paperback, and ebook on Amazon. I do sell it directly. People can contact me through my website janicethompson.net. And I'm also here in Maine. A lot of the local shops and the independent bookstores have taken it. And so if you're in Maine, I always say go to the bookstores and get it, because I want people to support independent publishing. And also if they buy it from these stores, the stores will buy more from me.
    [00:50:39] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary. 
     
    [00:50:51] Mary Bingham: Two weeks ago, four days after I was told that I had to move because my lease was going to be up in June of 2024, a tree fell and took out the courtyard attached to my apartment and damaged the overhang, missing my window by about a foot. It will cost hundreds of dollars to repair the courtyard and the overhang, I'm sure. If this was colonial times, I could have been accused of witchcraft. That's right. If this was the late 1600s, my landlord could say that my specter somehow caused that tree to fall, causing considerable damage to the property on purpose. 
    On a more serious note, in 1688, Rebecca Nurse confronted her neighbor, Sarah Holton, because the Holton's pigs kept breaking through their fence, charging into the Nurses' fields and destroying their crops. That was serious, destroyed crops meant less food for the Nurses. Shortly after this confrontation, Sarah Holton's husband, Benjamin, became ill and sadly died. Sarah doesn't say anything until four years later, when she offers a deposition against Rebecca in 1692. Really? Why wait? One can only speculate. Maybe Sarah believed all along that Rebecca's specter caused harm to her husband. It could be that Benjamin's illness was unknown to the doctor and that Sarah needed to believe that something caused her husband's death. This was not an uncommon belief amongst the Puritans. They believed that everything happened for a reason. 
    Four years later, Rebecca was accused, arrested, and removed from her home and sent to jail. Maybe it was then that Sarah said, "aha. That's it. Rebecca's specter caused my husband to die." This belief in bewitchment or someone manipulating nature to cause bad weather conditions, crop failures, harm to another person's environment, and most sadly, death to a family when scientific evidence was not known, had deadly consequences, such deadly consequences that one accused could hang. This was only one element in the case of Rebecca nurse, but it was an element of many of the cases in colonial British America. Sadly, it is an element in many of the cases of deadly witch hunts today. Luckily, I will not be accused of bewitchment because that tree fell onto the courtyard, but others living in Africa, Ghana, India, Papua New Guinea and other places are accused of affecting nature to cause harm to others at an alarming deadly rate. Please educate yourself regarding ongoing witch hunts. Thank you. 
     
     
    [00:53:59] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [00:54:02] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [00:54:12] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Thank you for being a part of the journey of discovery around witch hunts past and present. Take a look at our episode catalog. It is amazing. It is amazing because historians, authors, academics, economists, advocates, artists and descendants of accused witches have generously given us insightful and meaningful conversation week after week and entrusted Josh and I with their message to you.
    Have you read any of our guest's books? Have you pulled up their research and articles to continue learning? Please do. Josh and I are constantly reading to bring you the best research and conversations on witch hunts. You can be reading and talking about it, too. Find links to articles in our show notes. Find and follow our team and guests like Dr. Leo Igwe and Mary Bingham on social media. Many are sharing blogs and articles regularly. Are you following Margo Burns? She has many presentations coming up this fall. Share the links with your friends. Buy books for gifts. Find our guest titles in our nonprofit bookshop, also linked in the show notes. Buy titles at your local independent bookshop or directly from the guests. There are so many great reads, and we are very grateful that each of these academics and researchers have given their time to talk about their work on this podcast.
    We want this podcast to reach the world with news that witch hunts are real but that witches are not causing harm with supernatural attacks. That witch hunting is complex and nuanced but not a mystery. Witch hunting is a current crisis, and we all need to be educated on the ways societies find themselves scapegoating those that cannot possibly be the cause of suffering. The targeted individuals become innocent sufferers themselves due to anger and fear. Every week, Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast brings both the history of the past witch trials and news and education about the current global effort of ending modern witch hunts. I hope you are being transformed by the education around witch hunts. Are you talking about our End Witch Hunts advocacy questions? Why do we witch-hunt? How do we witch-hunt? How do we stop hunting witches? 
    Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends, have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump in and end witch hunts with your particular abilities, influence, and network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing, long-term, collective effort for all of us to participate in. You can learn more by visiting our websites and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe.
    Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. To support us, make a tax-deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a super listener? Your super listener donation is tax-deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work. 
     
    [00:57:18] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [00:57:20] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [00:57:21] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you so much for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [00:57:27] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
    [00:57:29] Josh Hutchinson: Hit the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this podcast.
    [00:57:34] Sarah Jack: Find more episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [00:57:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell everyone you know and everybody you meet about Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
    [00:57:44] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end modern witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [00:57:49] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow. 
    
  • Italian Witchcraft Trials with Debora Moretti

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Take a first look at witch trial history in early modern Italy. Dr. Debora Moretti, of the University of York Centre for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies shares her research on Italian witchcraft beliefs and trials during the Roman Inquisition. What type of historical record is available today from this period in Italy? In this intriguing conversation she talks about witchcraft belief variations around Italy, some differences and similarities between Italian witchcraft beliefs and those found in other countries, Witch Sabbat details, and word origins for varying terms for the word witch in Italian.

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, Dr. Deborah Moretti of the University of York Center for Renaissance and Early Modern Studies tells us about Italian witchcraft beliefs and trials.
    [00:00:40] Sarah Jack: I am so excited that we got to talk about Italy. There are so many variations in witchcraft beliefs around Italy, and Dr. Moretti is the person to learn about it from.
    [00:00:52] Josh Hutchinson: In addition to learning about the witchcraft beliefs in Italy, we'll compare differences and similarities with beliefs found in other countries.
    [00:01:04] Sarah Jack: There's a lot to learn about the witches sabbat, and it's in this episode.
    [00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: And we'll learn about the differences between demoniac and non-demoniac witchcraft, and we'll learn about the Inquisition's role and practices in witchcraft trials in Italy.
    [00:01:24] Sarah Jack: Dr. Moretti talks to us about the records of some specific witch trials that occurred in Siena and Piedmont, and it's fascinating.
    [00:01:35] Josh Hutchinson: Among the many words that we'll learn for witchcraft, one is masca. We'll learn what that term refers to, what the origins of the word are, and who was the last masca.
    [00:01:51] Sarah Jack: Here is Dr. Deborah Moretti, who holds a specialized master's degree, an MLitt in ancient history and archeology from the University of Florence and a PhD in history from the University of Bristol. She has taught courses and seminars in ancient history and medieval and early modern history at the University of Florence and Bristol.
    Her research interests cover the history of Italian witchcraft in medieval and early modern period; ancient, medieval, and modern European paganism and magic, and also material evidence of magic in archeological context. Her published research focuses on the interactions between magic, its archeological evidence, and the social perception of the historical practitioners of magic and witchcraft. 
    Marker
    [00:02:35] Debora Moretti: The curiosity in historical studies and archeological studies is out there. I have just done a three days public outlet for archeology. I had many young people, they're doing also history, and the interest is there. So that's a positive sign. We, as you know, we just did in July a witchcraft conference, magic and witchcraft conference over two days. We, when I say we, it was myself and Tabitha Stanmore from University of Exeter, we organized the conference, and we focused, we really wanted to give more space to early career researchers following magic and witchcraft academic studies. And I have to say many people were surprised of the interest.
    The interest is still there. There are new avenues being studied, being researched. Therefore, I think magic and witchcraft studies are still in a very good place. There is a new blood coming in, and it was really exciting to have them all. Great exchange of ideas. We both have learned quite a lot.
    And because of that, next year is already in preparation. Next year will be the third year. So last year, it was just me organize it, and I had big names like Ronald Hutton or Owen Davies, Marina Montesano from Messina University, just to assess their research, where this year we focused on early career researchers, because we wanted to see is there a follow up to the big names? And there is. 
    So yes exciting times for studies in magic and witchcraft in all directions from spatial analysis to linguistic analysis, not just history or archeology, ethnography, anthropology. So it's still very vibrant, which is good to see, really. And also I think what excited me the most was how we are all prepared to embrace different type of media. So rather than follow the classical conferences, symposia, publication, there is more interest in having a more wider outlet, in social media and platforms like Instagram or, I'm not quite sure about TikTok, but Facebook, yes, I say I knew that the field was not stalling. I knew that it was still, the academic research was still carrying on, but I think I came out of the two days conference quite refreshed, knowing that yes, we are still there, we're still working, we're still researching in different areas to answer the many questions that still need to be answered.
    [00:05:27] Sarah Jack: Dr. Danny Buck tweeted out a lot of his experience as he was there, and it was very enticing, and it sounded like the topics and the discussions were really, what he was sharing really highlighted what you just shared for sure. I followed a lot of new historians that I hadn't been aware of yet, and I thought some of their focus topics were really important, too. So what an exciting time.
    [00:05:58] Debora Moretti: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.
    [00:06:01] Josh Hutchinson: I think of this as something of a golden age in witchcraft academic studies. There's so much research out there now, where, when I first got interested in witch trials about 15 years ago, there were a few books around, some of them older, but now it's just, I can't keep up with everything that's coming out. It's so wonderful.
    [00:06:34] Debora Moretti: Yes, it's, as I said, is refreshing to see. So of course, up to maybe five years ago, everybody was following the same pathways, because I think the usual pathways have to be explored more in depth, and now that we have explored them, there is like an explosion. For example, there is a focus on the inner emotions of basically of both the accusers and the people that were accused and even of the judges or the inquisitors, what was their background culturally, but also what was the input that put them there to ask certain questions? There is a focus on, as I said spatial narratives. 
    So, for example, there was a panel dedicated to the location of the Sabbat. So you, wherever you go in Europe, nevermind just one country, but in Europe altogether, you have different places that've been chosen to represent the perfect location for the sabbat by the people at the time. So you have liminal places. Therefore, you have a wooded area, you have the forest, you have the mountains, you have the sea.
    And of course these liminal places were connected to the local culture of specific groups at the time. So what was important for their economy? What was important for their livelihood? What was important in the fears, like the fear of the forest, that contributed to create the perfect location of the sabbat?
    [00:08:20] Sarah Jack: I was also thinking about the circle of borrowed concepts. 
    [00:08:24] Debora Moretti: Yes that's mine. I'm really proud of that. Of course, I was referring to what I am studying specifically. So that is the context of the Roman Inquisition trials. In the trial documents, you see, there has been an argument in the last 20 years on how really the Inquisition trials documents are primary sources to understand the perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices at the time, in both the people who were accused, the accusers, but also the inquisitors, because it's like a dichotomy.
    So you have a more learned approach to witchcraft beliefs or it's more a theological approach. And that was what was driving the inquisitors and the judges. And then there is more a folk approach or folk perception of magic and witchcraft. And that's what you can read in the depositions of both the accused and the accusers.
    Borrowing concepts, the idea behind that is that when somebody accused somebody else, they brought to the table their own perception, cultural and folk perception of what they believed a witch was or witchcraft acts were. And they were confronted by the perception of the Inquisitor of what a witch was and what witchcraft acts were.
    And of course, the two met during the witchcraft trials and there is evidence of the one part influencing the other. Also you have to think that a witchcraft trials was not just one event. And despite the, both the accusers and the accused were told of not discussing the trial outside of the tribunal, discussion did happen.
    So whatever the Inquisitor or the judge said was then reported to the wider village people. And it was absorbed in a way, but also the other way around. There is the folk perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices, and then you have the more learned perception of witchcraft and witchcraft practices that come together and influence each other. That was the idea of the borrowed concepts of witchcraft beliefs.
    [00:11:12] Josh Hutchinson: Turning our attention specifically to Italy, what elements of witchcraft beliefs are unique to Italy?
    [00:11:20] Debora Moretti: The first element is the longevity. So let's talk about the folk perception of witchcraft and what a witch is in the witchcraft trials. So the archives that I am using, they're dated between 1570 to 1780, more or less, and the same concepts come through across the 200 years period. Two different perceptions. 
    So there is still the idea of a witch as we have been told a witch should be, this almost supernatural figure, who would fly to sabbat either on top of a mountain or in a forest or somewhere else, have a pact with the devil, participate to the sabbat, so gathering of people. And during that sabbat they would do certain things, learning the dark art, copulating with the devil, eating specific things, amongst which, babies. So you have the supernatural witch, but then at the same time you have also the more practical witch, which is a normal person that has the capability of working sorcery for both a positive and negative end. 
    So you find the same spells throughout the 200 years period. And I'm not sure if I confront them with the English trials, for example, I'm not sure you find the same chronological broadness of certain beliefs. At least the practical side of beliefs is there is a famous spell the spell of the carafe or specifically called the Spell of the White and Black Angel, which you can find as early as mid-sixteenth century, but then you can find in mid 18th century. Is the same spell that has been maintained and practiced across the country.
    So I would say the longevity, yes, the longevity of the beliefs, but also the practices is one characteristic of Italian witchcraft beliefs. Some others, for example, how to remove the evil eye has survived till now. I have example of the evil eye and how to remove it in trials dating mid to late 16th century. And then, I have my great-grandmother who was born in the late 19th century, who used the same practices to remove the evil eye. 
    So can we say that certain spells have survived throughout centuries? Yes, but with a condition. So where in the 16th century you would see a more defined perception of the supernatural, nowadays, removing a evil eye is just a matter of fact practice. So it has a less supernatural perception in it, if you like. So definitely let the longevity of the beliefs both as what a witch is and what the practices are. It's just that nowadays, because there is no pressure of the inquisition at certain practices are not, even in the 18 19th century, certain practices are no longer considered maleficia. So there's no connection to heresy. They're still there in some form. So continuity. Absolutely. The perception has changed. We no longer think that the devil has a major part in it. We are no longer talking of heresy, but we are still talking of bad and good practices, and certain practices are specifically maintained to help people to overcome certain problems.
    [00:15:37] Sarah Jack: So as a little bit of an explainer, I'm wondering so like when you look at the New England witch trials, which is very different in every way, there is no longevity of practice, understanding. They're not even, there's no spells as a part of the trial history. But there are the hidden protective magic in their homes. The magic is there somewhere, but we don't really understand what their perception of it was. And we don't even have a perception of it today here in the United States. It's very interesting to me that we were targeting and murdering women as witches in the United States, but there wasn't even that element of spells or anything with it. So it seems very different, and I just wonder what people need to understand about that.
    [00:16:33] Debora Moretti: I think the element was still there, but has not been recorded in the primary documents. Owen Davies has written a great book, I think it came out in 2013, which was America Bewitched: The Story of Witchcraft after Salem. And he pointed out that the perception of witchcraft and magic practices did not end at 1692. They carried on, but is the documentation that has changed.
    He looked at different records, and he found evidence that the perception of witchcraft beliefs and beliefs in witches carried on later on and only petered out around the 1960s. Personally, what I really think is that there you had the same elements. So there were certain beliefs, certain practices that gave a push to the witch-hunt, but perhaps they were not recorded, because you have to understand the media through which this information has come to us. Now, I am lucky because I have the Inquisition records, and they were very meticulous in recording what constituted a witchcraft crime or a heretical crime. But if the local judges or the local priest did not record that and focused only on the heretical element or only on the pact with the devil, that's what we have.
    So we have to remember that witchcraft-related sources are incredibly biased and they've been biased from the time that were created. So we have to see who wrote them, who actually wrote the documentation, why the person has written them, and what was the purpose of the final document? So again, if I make you a comparison with Inquisition trial documents, we know that the Roman Inquisition dealt with heresy. Therefore, in the interrogations, you can see how the Inquisitor was chasing the heretical crime. So of all the many things that the accused person was telling, the Inquisitor focused on the heretical crime, and that is a form of biased. Now we are lucky. I am lucky because everything was recorded.
    But if in your case, the person noted down on the document decided that a certain spell did not qualify as heretical and did not fit the agenda of that specific trial, it was left out. So the fact that references to spells are not there does not mean that they were not there. It probably, in fact, very likely means that the person writing down did not consider them important to the agenda that the person was following or the trial agenda.
    So we have to be really careful in how we handle any document that is related to witchcraft accusations, because ultimately they were written by somebody who did have an agenda. Therefore, large parts were left out. In Italian witchcraft trials, we, back 20 years ago, we were saying, oh yes, from the late 17th century witchcraft trials were no longer important. They didn't happen or they petered out. That's not quite true. The agenda of the inquisition changed. Therefore, the questions during the interrogations did not cover some elements. You have to understand what was behind the interrogation. What was the agenda of the institution or person that was carrying out the interrogation? What was the ultimate goal? So for the Roman Inquisition was to find out heretical practices, because they had jurisdiction only on practices that had a heretical nature. The rest, they didn't have jurisdiction on them.
    I think I would say the first step for anybody that wants to get into witchcraft studies is, especially if they're working on archival material, is to understand the institution that has created the archival material and what was the ultimate goal of this institutional judge or, I don't know, tribunal? What was the ultimate goal? Was it really persecuting every form of magical practices, or was it just one section, were they chasing only the pact with the devil? Therefore, in that case, they would've left out everything else. They would've left out, I don't know, healing practices that might have had a magical side to them or other things, because did not support what they were chasing, basically.
    And Owen Davies has used, as I said, different materials like newspapers, ethnographical material, and I love the book. And he, I think he showed that the perception of witchcraft did indeed change, but accusations were still there. The perception of the malevolent witch was still there. It was just in different primary sources. It was treated differently by the legal system. It's a different form, but the beliefs themselves, they were still there and I think, maybe spells and magical practices were there, but they were not recorded because not necessary for what they were looking for.
    [00:23:10] Josh Hutchinson: They did record a few practices, divination, but not the spells. They would mention that a person would go away mumbling, but they wouldn't say what the person said. They never wrote down the words. They just wrote down that, yeah, they might have cursed this person. But the words weren't important for whatever reason.
    [00:23:36] Debora Moretti: Exactly. Where again, I am lucky because the words were recorded is like in the case of Caterina Caponero, for example, we are early 17th century. She was, by the time she was accused and therefore put on trial, she had a 20 years career of magical practitioner, if you like, and she did all sorts of things. She did love spells, she did healing spells. She was quite well known in the community. The real reason why she ended up in front of the Inquisitor was because of this specific Spell of the White Angel, Black Angel, which the inquisitor's manuals saw as heretical because, shall I tell you what the spell is so you understand?
     This is a spell that is very famous, and, as I said, it has survived. It was practiced across Italy for 200 years. So basically the person doing the spell would collect holy water from a church and put the holy water in a carafe. The person then would get a holy candle, usually what was leftover of Candlemas, so a specific type of candle. They would put the candle, so the carafe on the table, the candle behind the carafe, and then they would ask either a child or a nun, somebody who had not had sexual intercourse or a virgin human being to look into the carafe. So the candle would create shapes into the water and the person would tell the magic practitioner what the shapes were, and the magical practitioner would basically understand what the shapes were, and this spell was usually done for either finding treasures or recovering stolen objects.
    Now, even some churches across Italy would ask the help of magic practitioners to use this spell, if they had some goods stolen by others. Now, Caterina was really good at it because there is a woman accusing her, saying that she didn't want to get involved with her, but she was desperate to find the stolen goods. So she went to Caterina, and not only Caterina saw where the goods were, but Caterina also saw who had stolen the goods and we don't know if then the woman went and got her goods back. But she was adamant on the fact that Caterina was, she never said, oh, she's good, but she said something on the lines of, I was surprised, and she was right. She told me who they were, and I knew that they were these people. So of 20 years magical practices career, the Inquisitor just focused on this one because the Inquisition manuals said that the black angel is the devil. So the magical practitioner was interacting with the devil.
    And that was that. Nevermind the fact that she cured many people. Nevermind that she used other things for love magic. That was the thing that got her in trouble, and she was in and out of prison for decades and she got tortured for this. And she was basically kept in prison. So you see if the Inquisitor or the tribunal was not really careful in taking notes of what she was saying, we would've missed her spell, her love spells, or her healing spells, and we would've known of her, only of the white angel, black angel spell.
    See how very narrow it's, so it depends on who is down the interrogation. So yeah it's very, the sources are very biased from the very beginning. So I think one who wants really to approach the trials documents has to keep that in mind all the time.
    [00:27:50] Sarah Jack: Yeah. I just keep thinking about Samuel Wardwell in North Andover, and part of it's my own as I've come along trying to put all this together. He has this fortune telling. He's known, or it's brought up about him. He's questioning it. If these practices were getting them in trouble, but they were known to do it and comfortable, like, why were they so surprised for getting in trouble when they were publicly doing these things?
    And now I'm seeing that many of them were, it was a very, possibly a very normal part of their interaction with each other, but because of what the target of the Salem witch trials was, which was the devil and the covenanting. There are these tiny little flickers of magical practices, even in the Salem witchcraft story. And it doesn't fit, it doesn't make sense. But that's why, this is why, what you are explaining is the answer to that.
    [00:28:51] Debora Moretti: Even further back in time many practices were in place generation prior the person being accused of witchcraft. Now, you would wonder why all of a sudden what they have been prac, like Caterina, she has done that for 20 years. What happened to suddenly make her a heretical witch?
    There is a shift with the at least I'm talking of course, for Italian witchcraft here, specifically. So when the Reformation kicked in and the Roman Catholic Church kicked back with a Counter-Reformation, so we are mid 16th century, the Catholic Church had to reform its ways so could fight back the Reformation. In reforming itself, push down on its flock. The supervision of the Church of its flock's practices became more focused. 
    So the general people had to follow a tighter line, a better Christian behavior. So all of a sudden the practices that they are carried out and learned from their parents and they have freely carried out up to that point, became dangerous practice, or the church started to consider them dangerous. Therefore, they became suddenly visible. And what the church did was also to invite the general public to come forward, if they had known of people practicing heretical. And they did, the population did. So the church provided a platform and the people used the platform. So we tend to say that the witchcraft accusations did not come from above, they came from below. So once there was a platform created by the Church, the general people used it, and that's when the accusations started. And the accusations, a good percentage of the accusations, were between neighbors, within the same family, and what propelled these accusations were usually bad social interactions.
    There is an example in the witchcraft trials of Novara in the north in Piedmont, where a woman, an elderly woman, she was a widow and her husband, and you can read this in the trial, her husband left with good money, which was unusual. So she ended up lending money to different people, farmers, traders, et cetera, because that's how she would have an interest and have a better life.
    When the time came that these people had to pay her back, that's when they accused her of being a witch. So she was bad-tempered, and everybody knew that. And they used that to say that she was a witch, so they didn't have to pay the money back. So you see, once they had the platform upon which to act, they did act on it, and they accused, whoever they were unhappy with at the time. They accused these people. 
    But then if you come forward to nowadays, don't you think people would do the same? If the authorities created a platform where you could get rid of your neighbor that has been making your life miserable for 15 years, wouldn't you do that? I think what happened there is a very human behavior. Pettiness, jealousy, even competitiveness played a role and also social situation. Generally speaking, these people struggled in their day-to-day lives. So they had to make their lives better, and they had a place to do that. They had a stage upon which play all these things. 
    So witchcraft trials are, gosh, so complicated. There are so many factors that one has to keep in mind, and that's why it feels like you are never a specialist. You are one person that continues to study even the same witchcraft trials, because you have to approach them from different viewpoints, and you have to understand exactly the role played by everybody in a specific trial. You can't just see the side of the accused. You have to see the side of the accusers. You have to understand what type of economy was there at the time. You have to understand the political scenery of the time, the religious background of the time, and then also considered, in my case, what was the ultimate goal of the Roman Inquisition? What and who were they chasing? 
    It is like Caterina, for example, she was a bit surprised of all these accusations. And she did say, "I've been operating for so many years." And she actually did say, "I even went around saying, 'oh, I'm really good at doing this and that magical practices.'" And she had a good trade, and she could not understand why all of a sudden she was being accused by the very same people who she helped, because the main accuser on her trial was a really disgruntled wife who had a cheating husband. And the wife thought that the cheating husband was cheating on her, because he was somehow bewitched. Personally, I don't think so, but there you go, that's my very personal opinion. But previous this so she accused the two women who took away her husband and then she accused Caterina of providing the magical meaning for these two women to steal her husband. Now, previous that, few years previous that, and this is in the trial, the same wife did go to Caterina for a love spell, to have her husband back.
    So Caterina gave her the spell of the magnet. Literally was a piece of magnet that had been baptized in the church. And Caterina called the wife to keep it either in her mouth when she was kissing the husband, or in other parts of her body while they were doing other things, so the husband would be attracted to her, literally magnet attraction. So Caterina is saying, "but I have helped you with your husband, so why are you now accusing me of this?" 
    So you can see the social interconnection. These trials are never in isolation. You have to keep in mind the social context of them amongst all the other things. And that's why I say trial documents are complex. You have to read them in context. I am fond of giving the stage to the people that were in the trial rather than me making assumptions. I like them to be the main actors, because it's them who we should be listening to. And also the judges and inquisitors, because it's only them that can tell the story appropriately.
    And then we have to place these stories within a really wide cultural, political, social, economic background. And I think only then we can get a glimpse of really what happened to have the full picture of them.
    [00:37:11] Josh Hutchinson: Many excellent points. In Italy, in your articles, you've written about the regional differences in the witchcraft. Can you explain some of those? What was the difference, for instance, between belief in the Alps and belief south of the Alps?
    [00:37:31] Debora Moretti: Yes. So this was part, this was the main part of my PhD thesis. So I worked on two different archives. One is the inquisition archive of the city of Siena, which is still is thankfully in Tuscany, so we are talking center north of Italy. And in the Episcopal Archive of the city of Novara, which is in Piedmont, therefore in the North.
    And the witch trials of the Novara archive, they are, the events took part in two very small villages in the Alps. Now, the difference between, and I'm going to give you the general differences. Otherwise, we will be here for three days. So the main differences are that in the Novara archive, the witches, or the accusations carried out, present the supernatural witch, the heretical witch, as we know it from Central Europe, so the typical witch that we know. 
    So the person, supernatural person, who would indeed fly to the sabbat on top of a mountain, in a gathering, the sabbat, where first and foremost they would meet the devil. They would kiss his bottom of the devil and then have sex with the devil and then dance obscene dances. And usually they were dancing backwards, and then they would have lots of food, always without salt. One of the preferred food was children, there's a lot of children.
    So that's the stereotypical, heretical witch that was pushed by the elite of the time. So that is the heretical witch. Whereas in Tuscany or in the Siena archive, there are references to the sabbat, but they are, they're almost like passing by references. And the figure of the witch is not really the heretical witch. You have more a low level sorcerer. So the person who would learn certain spells and they were not necessarily all bad. So the majority of the spells that you find in the accusations that you find in the north, as I said, they are heretical acts and mainly killing children, adoring the devil, and all that. So that is pure apostasy, and that's why that is a heretical crime. Where in the Siena archive, you find healing spells, you find love spells, you find what at the time called a tero tero spells. So they are spells to make, usually men, win games or find treasures. You do have references to the devil, but they are very specific. The adoration of the devil in Central Italy or in the Siena archive is usually associated with priests, nuns, or educated people. 
    The references to the devil of your normal folks is, you don't find the devil much, and when you do find it, it has almost like a secondary role. They addressed the saints, they addressed God, they addressed the angels, they even addressed stars, certain stars. And then if all that did not bring a change, then they addressed the devil. The devil was not that important. It was part of a supernatural universe. They, the majority of these people, apart the few, like the priests or the aristocrats or the nuns, the majority of the people accused were poor people that were struggling, so in the trials, you see how they justified certain acts as a way of making their life better. So sometimes you have people saying, when they've been asked, did you address the devil? And they say, oh yes, but it wasn't my first choice. I went to Saint So-and-so first and then the angel, and then the bright star, and then I have to go to the devil, because nobody else made it happen. 
    So you have this feeling that the sabbat is not important. Not even in the accusations, because we have, if we want to understand the sabbat, we have to read the accusations. So in the accusations of the Novara Piedmont North, you have, people accusing somebody else of going, flying to the sabbat and committing apostasy and kissing the devil's bottom. Where in the Siena Archive, there's not much there. There, there are references, but they are not your typical heretical gatherings. 
    Now, you find different references to different type of sabbats across Italy. So these are not the only two typologies. It's almost a regional perception of the sabbat. But whereas in the north you have your typical sabbat that you also have in central Europe, for example, or even in Scotland, in the center and maybe the south is more local. So you have the walnuts of Benevento or you have other types of sabbats. So they're more folk perceptions of the sabbat. Where in the north, as in the rest of Europe, is the stereotypical sabbat that was imposed from above.
    [00:43:18] Josh Hutchinson: So it's more of a diabolical pact that's important in the north, and in the south, it, and central, it sounds like it had more to do with magic that was being used for practical purposes, and it's the magic itself doing the harm versus what the source of the magic is. Yeah. Okay.
    [00:43:43] Debora Moretti: Exact perfect. Perfectly. Yeah. Perfectly spotted.
    [00:43:47] Josh Hutchinson: you. Can you tell us about the different words there were for witchcraft and witches?
    [00:43:57] Debora Moretti: Oh, yes, 
    [00:43:58] Josh Hutchinson: know you pointed out several of different words and they had somewhat different meanings.
    [00:44:04] Debora Moretti: Yes. So strega is the one that we all know the best, because it is the one that comes from Latin. And that has survived into modern time. But then you have, for example, the masca, that seems to come from a more Germanic type of substratum. This is my hypothesis, the different names for witch in Italy, they are determined by the different languages in different regions. For example, in the areas that were because you have to remember that in Italy you didn't just have the Roman Inquisition, you also had the Spanish Inquisition in the south and some parts of the center. And then you had the Episcopal tribunals, et cetera. So it was a very complex religious situation regarding witchcraft.
    So you have in some part of Italy witches is that are called bruja, for example, that comes from Spanish. So that's an influence of the language. And masca, for example, comes from the Germanic, I think. It's definitely Longobard, or Lombard as, as you say in English, of Lombard origins. So the the terminology of witch depends on the subcultural substratum of different regions. 
    Marker
    [00:45:33] Debora Moretti: And then, of course, you have, so in the modern language you have strega, fata, and maga. So the fata is derives from the Latin word for fatum, which is a prophetic declaration, an oracle, or a prediction and is more, the fata is more of benign folklore figure. So it's not necessarily a witch, but sometimes fata has magical powers, and they were usually benign, but if humans treated them badly, then they would take revenge on them, basically. 
    Maga is, it comes from Latin. And it comes from Maji, from the Persian Maga, in fact derived originally from Greek, and then it was used in the Latin language. So it comes from that word, from the Persian word that means learned and priestly class. And then it became more like of a magical practitioner. And in the modern Italian folk tradition, the maga would be also synonymous of a healer or cunning woman. Now you do have the male version as well. So maga mage is for it's a female magic practitioner where mago magi is a male magic practitioner. They're less threatening figures, but they certainly still have magical powers. 
    The strega is absolutely a negative figure, because it really comes from the Latin strix and striges. So there's no way to find a benign character in the name. The masca, again, that's specific to the northwest of Italy, is mostly a negative, is still is today seen as a negative magic practitioner. And he still, now, it's one of the most famous type of witches in Italy to the point that Piedmont, for example has a specific tourist sector dedicated to the masca.
    So yeah, so you have your typical witch the strega, which is definitely negative, has negative attributes. Then you have the fata, which is more of a folk benign entity that can turn nasty, but usually as a vindictive act. You have the maga or mago, which is more cunning folk type of person.
    And then you have, there are many others, many others. And then you have the masca, which is again, has a negative connotation but at the same time has also a cunning folk vibe to it. So it's more complex than just either the strega or the maga.
    So the strega is negative totally. The maga is mainly cunning folk type of figure. It could turn nasty, generally speaking magic practices, the fata is more of a folklore, supernatural entity. And then you have the masca, which is the demonic witch but at the same time is also the cunning folk type of person, because they usually were, next door neighbor who during the day they would do the normal things every person would do. And they, in the night, they would transform themselves into these demonic figures. There are many others, many others. And the variation in the terminology, I think is because of the cultural substratum. Is there being a Spanish influence there? Therefore, you might have a different type of name. Is there being a Greek influence in the region? Then you have a different name. It depends on where you are in Italy, to have different terminology to express the term witch.
    [00:49:37] Josh Hutchinson: And can you tell us more about the masca? In one of your articles, you break down the origins of the word and where that might've come from. Can you tell us about that?
    [00:49:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah. That was a mental exercise on my part. I wanted to see, because it's such a well-known character or figure, I wanted to see if I could find material evidence of its provenance. So I have chased the etymology of the word, and I have traced it back to believe it or not proto-Indo-European to a proto-Indo- European root of. Now the pronunciation of in European, it's all made up. So forgive me if I just don't pronounce it well, but who knows how they pronounce it? So is mezeg, which meant to knit, plait, and twist. And that came down to Proto-Germanic mask, and it had cognates in all the Germanic dialects. So you find in, you find it in Old High German as max, and that is sixth to ninth century. You have it in the Old German or Old Saxon of eighth, 12th century as masca. You have it in German from the 16th century as masca. So you know through different yeah, Germanic dialects.
    So what is this mental exercise on the etymology of the word I, in my article, I throw it out there that the modern masca, which was definitely a witch figure in the Lombard low codes, comes from an even more ancient figure that was associated to bog bodies.
    I know this is a bit of a leap of faith, and I say that maybe the original etymology of masca, which means, as we said to knit, plait, twist is perhaps a memory of a practice carried out from Iron Age cultures in Europe to basically deliver bodies into bogs. And they were usually pinned down by knitted material or twigs. So that's the mental exercise. 
    Now, I have no evidence of that, because we need more work, but we know for example, from Tacitus that certain individuals within certain societies were punished by drowning in marshes or bogs, and they were pinned down into the bogs. So in my article, I'm just wondering if the Lombard witch, masca witch, has survived as a witch figure in modern time, still called masca, actually is a memory of an ancient, sacrificial or punishment of certain individuals not well accepted within specific societies.
    We know from Tacitus that the people that were pinned down in bogs were prostitutes or unclean individuals. Not quite sure what that means, but clearly there were individuals that were not well accepted within the society where they practiced this. I don't think there were sacrifices per se, but they were definitely killed because of their perceived crimes.
    So could that be, maybe there is still more work to be done, because it's very difficult to bring together the philological interpretation of a term and then find the archeological evidence, an act that we can see in the archeological records that could explain the evolution of an etymology and then can that be transferred to historical figure. That was a mental exercise. 
    I think it is possible, because bog bodies are a specific, it was not your usual burial. There were reasons, either rituals or social reasons for certain individuals to be dumped into marshy areas. Why were they pinned down? They were, we know that, I dunno if you know what hurdles are, but they are like mesh twigs, and so they were properly kept down in the bog. And because of this mesh situation or even bodies that have been wrapped up, I was just wondering, is there a connection, because the etymology of the word masca takes you all the way back to Proto-Indo-European, meaning knitting, meshing. Is there connection there?
    But Yeah, it's all hypothetical. 
    [00:54:43] Josh Hutchinson: And you talk about the last masca killed in Piedmont.
    [00:54:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah.
    [00:54:50] Josh Hutchinson: When did that occur?
    [00:54:53] Debora Moretti: Early 19th century. And she was the post medieval masca were considered witches, and they were told to possess a specific book that would give them the power to carry out their acts. And the book was called Book of the Fisica. She was accused of having one of these books, and the book apparently had belonged to the family for a very long time. She was accused of causing illness and death to two people in the village. So authorities were called, but nothing was done. Therefore, the people of the village decided to take matter into their own hands.
    And they choose two men to have it killed. And these two men were never prosecuted for the murder, because the village basically supported the alibi. Therefore, they were never prosecuted, and yes, she was killed by them just because the village thought that she was a witch.
    Marker
    [00:56:02] Sarah Jack: I have to tell you that this is a little bit off, and we don't have to keep this in the episode, but I have to tell you, I can't help but think of Dorothy Good right now, Josh. 
    [00:56:12] Debora Moretti: Again, the connection there is an historical connection to bog bodies and witches. But again it's not a direct connection. So the main direction in the Burgundian laws, so that is. 500 AD. So we are early, early medieval Europe. There is a chapter that says, tell how adulterous women should be treated. And there is a connection, of course, between the adulterous women, prostitutes. And then there is an associations of prostitutes with witches. And adulterous women should be drowned in bogs, basically. 
    We have the archeological evidence of bog bodies. Then you have Tacitus that mention certain unholy or I can't quite remember what he named them, but certain individuals in society that deserve to be drowned into bogs. And then you have the Burgundian laws that specifically refers to how an adulterous woman and prostitute should be dealt with.
    So there is something there. Now we, as Ronald Hutton always say never join the dots, because that is a very long chronological period to assume something. So there is definitely something there. But even in my article, I say, is this too much of a leap of faith because you, you would need to have direct references all the way through. So from, early, early medieval to then post medieval, either Europe or Northern America, to definitely say absolutely there is absolutely a connection between bog bodies and witches. But it's fascinating. I like to think that there is something there. Otherwise I would've not gone through, the etymological research on the word masca. So if I put my scholar cap on, I would say, yeah, we have to be careful because do we have evidence in, so after, let's say after the seventh century AD, do we have evidence of that?
    We don't really but as a person who is really passionate about witchcraft studies, yeah. , no even here, even in Europe, there's no association between bog bodies and witchcraft directly. So it's just me working on the masca, which is, Italian. Really. So no bog bodies are all, I think from late bronze age, iron age period type of they do have them here in England as well. Definitely in Scandinavia and Central Europe as well. But not in later periods well, not yet. Who knows, maybe.
    [00:58:58] Josh Hutchinson: But the point of going back with the word is basically the words meaning evolved over time to become witch. It started out as a different kind of situation of an unclean person and then evolved somehow. 
    [00:59:17] Debora Moretti: I only gave you like the shorter road from Proto-Indo-European to the Lombard word masca. But there are more bits in between which allowed me to have an hypothesis on, a theory on this. But yes, we start with something that means, knitting or mesh ending then into a witch figure, which is an incredible, incredibly large leap of faith. I give you that. But I think there is something about it, and when I will have a little bit more time, I will expand this with some philologists so they will know better about the evolution of Proto-Indo-European into then Germanic languages, et cetera. Because I'm not a philologist. Then, yeah, I can look better into the bog bodies, see if we have more later evidence.
    So yeah it's intriguing. Absolutely. Just it needs to be taken with a little bit of a pinch of salt. I personally think there is something there, but it needs to be studied in depth. Really.
    Marker
    [01:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: The masca, what were some of their powers? I know you talk about their spirit coming from their body.
    [01:00:28] Debora Moretti: Yes. So they had the ability to operate outside their body. So in folklore evidence that were collected quite recently in the 1980s people remembered, so we are talk, the majority of the people talking about their memories, they were, in 1980, they were around like 70, 80 years old, and they referred to traditions that came from their parents. So we are looking at the end of the 19th century. So they would say that one of the most feared characteristic of the masca was that she would, let's say they were doing some work together in an evening. So the village was gathered together, she would fall asleep and then she would, her soul or spirit would come out of her mouth and she would commit witchcraft acts in a spirit form.
    So that was one of the most feared elements of the masca. That way that could fly. And there are some references to how they would, in that form would collect the fat from children. And they would keep this fat in jars hidden in their homes. And then they would use the fat to enhance their magical powers and then to fly further.
    And in one of the folk references there is, there was a gentleman who said, I remember in my village. So as I said, yeah, the these folk narratives were collected I think it was 1980s or early 1990s. So the gentleman said, I remember of a masca farfalle, which is butterfly. And she was basically a woman masca, a witch, benign for what the person was saying, who would every so often fly back to her own country, which was France, so she could fly as a butterfly.
    So yeah, they had this power of either operating in spirit form, coming out from the bodies through the mouth, or fly around like butterflies.
    [01:02:43] Josh Hutchinson: It sounds so familiar to with New England witches they were, a lot of the evidence that came in was spectral evidence, and it was about the specter of the individual leaving the body and going off to do the nefarious things. And it would fly to Sabbaths and go into people's houses in the night to injure them, make them sick, just torment them in some way, and then return to the person.
    And there's stories of, there was one woman who had, I believe, catalepsy, and she would pass out basically. And so they found her body lying there still and revived her. But then in later years, they were looking back on that incident and they're like, yeah, we should have known she was a witch right then, because her soul left her body while she was snoozing.
    [01:03:50] Debora Moretti: Yeah, that's why in my PhD I said that the masca is more of a strictly speaking, demonic witch because she would operate, in the same way that demonic witches would operate. So yeah. But that the idea of the masca being the demonic witch was perceived earlier on, even in the Lombard law codes because the masca was somebody who, like a strega a witch about witch would eat a man inside out. So they had supernatural abilities to hurt people from inside out. Absolutely differently from the various witches from the Siena Archive, for example, where you really don't have that.
    There are a few elements that they did hypnotize parents inside their own homes to steal children and then steal the fat of the children. But again, they, compared to the quantity of the trial documents, these elements are few in percentage. The remaining they are just, they were practical witches, if you like. 
    [01:05:03] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. And I'm really curious what did the witches do with the baby fat?
    [01:05:12] Debora Moretti: In both the Siena archive and then the Novara archives, they would cover themselves with the fat, and then they would be able to fly or being able to summon the devil to fly with the devil. Yeah, it was, it would enhance their powers.
    [01:05:33] Josh Hutchinson: And when they flew, would they fly as their human form, or would they always transform into something else, or?
    [01:05:45] Debora Moretti: You also have metamorphosis. But usually they would fly on a horse, in fact not even fly. So sometimes once they anointed themselves a goat would appear that's the devil. And the goat would take them to the sabbat. Sometimes is a speaking horse. Sometimes they would fly themselves.
    So it depends. There are so many traditions on how to get to the sabbat. There is one common element, though, while in motion they could not mention God, the Virgin Mary, Jesus, or any of the saints. Otherwise, their magical power would disappear, and they will fall down. And there are some of them that will say, and all of a sudden, I woke in the middle of a field covered in bruises, because I said Dio, Maria and Jesu, and all the magic disappeared, and then they became normal again.
    [01:06:46] Josh Hutchinson: We had them on broomsticks. Sometimes Satan would appear as a horse or a dog or some animal to them, but usually they would ride on a pole to the sabbat. And
    [01:07:01] Sarah Jack: about each other? Isn't there a couple that just rode another witch?
    [01:07:06] Josh Hutchinson: There was something where they made somebody ride them. But there were also, there were crashes. There were times where the poles snapped, and they fell to the ground. And that's recorded in their confessions. And there's one story of one, one witch clinging onto the other for dear life, because she was falling off the pole. So they were very elaborate in their descriptions of flight in New England, at least during the Salem trials, when the devil really played such a critical role.
    [01:07:44] Debora Moretti: Yeah. I found detailed narration of the food that they would have at the sabbat. Loads of food, high status food. So that is almost what they were wishing, because of course their daily food wasn't that type of food. And all the time the food had no salt in it, because the salt, again, would annihilate the magical power, and sometimes they say basically great variety of food, really lush, but then when they ate it, it tasted charred material, like sand or burned material. So that gives you the idea that even in their narratives, they knew that all that was just an illusion, the illusion of the devil. 
    [01:08:35] Josh Hutchinson: The salt is very interesting because I've seen that elsewhere used in protective magic to form a circle around you of protection, that kind of thing.
    [01:08:50] Debora Moretti: We still have in Italy. I remember seeing my mom spreading salt at the bottom of our external staircase to make sure that there was no evil coming in. And we still say, do not spill salt. And if you do, then you have to chuck a little bit behind your shoulder to make sure, so the salt has always had magic, a counter witchcraft or counter magic properties of it was an apotropaic mineral. It's being used in antiquity, as well. Yeah.
    [01:09:22] Josh Hutchinson: I just had this idea of the salt as, we talk about sympathetic magic and where a property, there's a transference of some property, of something that's like another thing. And the salt, because it preserves the food against rot and decay. Maybe it also protects the person in other ways.
    [01:09:51] Debora Moretti: That is very possible. Very possible. Also, remember that salt has healing properties. What is the first thing you do when you cut yourself if you don't have whatever the name of the, alcohol based solutions, you just use hot water and salt. So yeah, it's healing property and preservation of food. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Sympathetic magic right there.
    [01:10:21] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. You'd mentioned some other sympathetic magic earlier. Was that common in witch trial cases?
    [01:10:31] Debora Moretti: Absolutely. The most used spells, for example to prevent fertility in a man, one of the most common spells were the knotting of the string. So you can see the, so you are knotting something therefore the man will stop being fertile, for example. And then, yes, the the spell of the magnet. So it's literally a piece of magnet that was baptized. So you see, they were practicing magic within their own cultural background. So they were religious people, they were Catholics. So for something like a magnet to be active, to be magical, to kick in the sympathetic element of the magical practice, it had to be baptized.
    And this was, the baptizing random objects, was a thing, because we find sermons that, stating this ignorant, backwards, people bring all sorts of things to be hidden under the altar to be baptized. So the priest would not know what he was baptizing to give the magical power to certain objects, because the church itself had a magical element. And that's why amongst the different apotropaic object, you would also have saints figurine carried on the body or prayers carried on the body. Their perception of atropaic was vast and certainly included liturgical objects, liturgy itself. Everything was, could be used, in a different way from what. 
    [01:12:20] Josh Hutchinson: And people still wear protective medallions and amulets today.
    [01:12:26] Debora Moretti: Yes, absolutely. This again, is one of those human element, that never goes away. And I think there is at least for me, it's comforting to know, because I use amulets, I wear certain type of stones in my jewelry or a specific metal in my jewelry. And it is for me, a sort of comfort to know that what I am doing has been done for thousands of years, but also that is because this is my perception of what witchcraft is, or not necessarily witchcraft, because witchcraft was almost created with the demonization of magical practices. 
    But yeah, magic is a sort of, you are nowadays, why do you practice magic is to have, bring control to your life, to almost shape the universe around you so you are in control. And for what I read from the, not all of them, but a good percentage of the witchcraft trials documents. That's why some of them did that, because they say that I had no bread for three days. I had no food for two days. Hence doing this. And also there is a practical element is Caterina, she made money, good money in selling her spells.
    So yes, there is a psychological element to magical practices. So they're almost a way, a coping mechanism. So if life is particularly hard on you, you try to take back control, and I think as it applies today, it did apply back then. And there is the element and then there is the practical element.
    So people either truly were magical practitioners and they made money out of it, or they pretended to be magical practitioners, so they could basically almost force people to help them. Otherwise, they would put spells on them, even if they were not magical practitioners. 
    [01:14:40] Josh Hutchinson: Was there anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap up?
    [01:14:46] Debora Moretti: We have to have more social media coverage, academic study of witchcraft and magic has to have more media coverage. Because in the past tended to be more for specialists, where I think it has to go out there to a wider public. So thank you very much. Thank you to your listeners.
    [01:15:08] Sarah Jack: And now for a Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:15:19] Mary Bingham: The name Putnam has caused many to cringe when we talk about the Salem Witch Trials. After all, some of them were the main accusers in 1692. But only some of them. In fact, only a small few, Thomas Junior, his wife and daughter, Ann Senior and Ann Junior, Thomas's brother Edward, and Jonathan, a cousin of Thomas and Edward. If I missed a Putnam or two, it's not more than three. Here's the deal. My fellow volunteer at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, John Fellows, readily tells our visitors the name Putnam is like the name Smith. To further that point, archivist for the town of Danvers and the historian Richard Trask says that the Putnam clan made up 12% of the entire population of no more than 550 living in Salem Village in the late 1600s. These Putnams included the families of the daughters who married and started families of their own. 
    So what were the views of the other Putnams regarding the witchcraft allegations? One can't speak for all of them, but we know one thing for sure. Several signed the petition in defense of Rebecca Nurse. One of them was my 10 times great-grandfather, Captain John Putnam. It's interesting to note that Captain John was at that time in heated arguments with the Esty and Towne families regarding the boundary dispute between the towns of Topsfield and Salem Village in Massachusetts Bay Colony, British America.
    These families with whom Captain John was ready to do physical battle were close relatives of Rebecca Nurse and her sister, Mary Esty, both hanged in 1692. However, Captain John never accused Rebecca Nurse or Mary Esty of witchcraft, as did his nephew Thomas and his family, never. The other Putnams who signed the petition in defense of Rebecca Nurse were Captain John's wife Rebecca, Jonathan Putnam, Benjamin Putnam, Sarah Putnam, and Joseph Putnam.
    Just because someone was named Putnam doesn't mean they were accusers. Hopefully, I have laid this misconception to rest, for a few minutes, anyway. Thank you. 
     
    [01:17:53] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:17:54] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:18:05] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3) weekly news update. Today is World Day Against Witch Hunts. Humanity, has not yet gotten past the fearful behavior of hunting vulnerable people, witches. Witch hunting targets the vulnerable and innocent.
    Please join me right now and have a 30-second moment of reflection for those who have been executed as witches.
    If you would like to spend more time reflecting, you should do so and pause the episode.
    On August 10th, 2020, World Day Against Witch Hunts was started in order to recognize the violence in at least 41 countries around the globe, such as countries in Africa, Oceania, and Latin America, where fearful, panicked people target vulnerable, scared people because of witchcraft fear and blame.
    The victims are hunted, tortured, and often killed. The inaugural World Day Against Witch Hunts was in 2020. This date of remembrance was chosen to honor the attack on a woman in Papua New Guinea on August 10th, 2012. She was accused of being a witch by residents of her village and tortured for days. She survived the violence, was able to escape, and was brought to safety with the help of advocate and Swiss nun, Sister Lorena Jenal. And so the International Catholic Mission Society launched August 10th as the day to draw attention to the devastating consequences of sorcery accusation-related violence and witch hunts, to connect experts and advocates, and to grow awareness and pool violence prevention and education initiatives.
    Work with us on growing this day of remembrance, and take time to post words like August 10th, World Day Against Witch Hunts 2023, in order to amplify this annual day of education and remembrance. We want it to be an annual anticipated day of recognition for the victims and advocates facing this crisis daily. It is a memorial day and a day of education. Worldwide, multitudes of victims do not have a physical memorial, but they now have the World Day against Witch Hunts. Tell your friends about it and send them our way to learn more. 
    Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. Have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump in to end witch hunts with your particular abilities, influence, and network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing, long-term, collective effort for all of us to participate in. You can learn more by visiting our website and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country-specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe.
    Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a super listener? You can be a super listener by committing to as little as $3 a month. But don't stop there, if you are really excited about our programming, go ahead and add a zero to that three. Your super listener donation is tax deductible.
    Thank you for being a part of our work.
     
    [01:21:42] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:21:44] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:21:45] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:21:51] Sarah Jack: We'll be back to talk with you next week.
    [01:21:54] Josh Hutchinson: So subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and you'll have that episode downloaded and ready to go when it comes out on Thursday.
    [01:22:03] Sarah Jack: Visit our website thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:22:06] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, acquaintances, and neighbors about the show.
    [01:22:11] Sarah Jack: We thank you for supporting our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit us at endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:22:19] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
     
    
  • Massachusetts Witch Trials with Alyssa G A Conary

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Introducing Alyssa G. A. Conary, Historian and Author of witchcraft, magic and 17th century New England. In this conversational episode covering Massachusetts witch trial history, Alyssa, Josh and Sarah discuss shocking aspects of these stories including the courts, magistrates, ministers, misogyny, what was written about the behavior of the accused, and the circumstances around their trials.  Hear how the Boston witch trials, the Salem witch trials and the witch trials of Connecticut connect, compare and differ. Find out more about History Camp Boston 2023, where Alyssa presents her research. We address the importance of seeing and responding to humanity in all people on our planet. This discussion communicates End Witch Hunts’ message: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches?

    History Camp Boston, August 2023

    The Pursuit of History Organization

    A Modest Enquiry Into the Nature of Witchcraft, John Hale

    U.S. Strategy to Prevent Conflict and Promote Stability

    Join One of Our Projects

    Support Us! Buy Book Titles Mentioned in this Episode from our Book Shop

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Discord

    Buzzsprout

    Mailchimp

    Donate

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson. 
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: We're going back to Massachusetts this week.
    [00:00:30] Sarah Jack: But not to Salem.
    [00:00:32] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. We're taking a field trip this week.
    [00:00:35] Sarah Jack: So pack a snack and enjoy the ride.
    [00:00:39] Josh Hutchinson: You'll love this fun conversation along the way.
    [00:00:42] Sarah Jack: We talk about the Boston Witch Trials.
    [00:00:45] Josh Hutchinson: That's right. There were witch trials in Boston long before the Court of Oyer and Terminer convened in Salem.
    [00:00:51] Sarah Jack: We talk about Margaret Jones, Elizabeth Kendall, Alice Lake, Anne Hibbins, Goody Glover, and Elizabeth Morse.
    [00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: And we learn a valuable lesson that we can all apply today.
    [00:01:04] Sarah Jack: Alyssa G. A. Conary is a historian and writer. She will be giving her Boston Witch Trials presentation at History Camp this month, and she was kind enough to discuss some of it with Josh and myself. Grab your beverage, pull up your chair, and lean in.
    [00:01:19] Josh Hutchinson: We hear that there were witch trials in Boston. Is that true?
    [00:01:25] Alyssa Conary: Yes, there absolutely were.
    [00:01:29] Josh Hutchinson: And approximately what years were these held? What kind of range are we looking at?
    [00:01:35] Alyssa Conary: There's a little bit of a question as to when the first was. It was, usually people say 1648, but it's possible that it was 1647. And then that goes into the mid 17th century. And the last execution for the first era is 1656. And there's no executions for a really long time. There's some trials, but no executions. And then you have 1688, you have another execution. And then after that is Salem. So Salem that's just like a totally different story.
    [00:02:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
    [00:02:13] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:02:14] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. What are some of the key differences to make that a different story?
    [00:02:22] Alyssa Conary: Salem is a witchcraft panic. It's funny, because you always want people to understand that witchcraft prosecution was not strange then. That was pretty normal, because people believed in witches. But even within the history of witchcraft prosecution, Salem was an outlier. Because before Salem in Massachusetts had just been like putting one or two people on trial at a time. There was periods of time in between. It was usually for some mundane misfortune or something like that, that someone would be accused. There are also more serious cases people thought people were being murdered by witchcraft, but which fascinates me, but that's, again, that's a whole other thing.
    So for the most part it was just these pretty simple cases, and they didn't execute many people. I don't think they liked to execute people for witchcraft. The execution rate was pretty low. Then you get to Salem, and it's a full-blown witch panic. And you have the afflicted people, mostly girls, but there were some others.
    Geographically, it's much wider than it had been in the past. There's way more suspects. There's tons of people in jail, and then you've got these judges who are using pretty much any kind of evidence that they wanna use and just convicting, literally everybody that they tried in 1692 was convicted and sentenced to death. So it's just something that is an outlier from the rest of the history of witchcraft in Massachusetts.
    [00:03:57] Sarah Jack: And you're gonna be talking a little bit about this at History Camp. What is History Camp?
    [00:04:03] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, History Camp is awesome. I think I went, I think it was maybe the first or second History Camp that I actually went to in 2015, I wanna say. And my, he wasn't my husband then, he is my husband now. We were best friends back then, but we were just like super excited about going to this, 'cause we're big history people and it sounded like perfectly nerdy and perfect for us.
    So we went that year and didn't speak or anything, but it was just, it's just a full day of history lectures. And you get to choose which one you wanna go to. So there are different slots and like at any given time there's like several different lectures going on. So you can choose, okay, I wanna go to listen to this topic or that topic. And then this goes all day from nine to five. So it's just basically the best thing a nerd could ever attend.
    [00:04:51] Josh Hutchinson: I really hope to be able to do that sometime. It sounds like a festival for history nerds.
    [00:04:58] Alyssa Conary: It's great. It started as just this event, and then the founders of the event went on to, I think it was in 2019, they created a nonprofit organization called The Pursuit of History to oversee History Camp, and then they started taking it to different places, like I think there's one in Virginia now, and there's one in Philadelphia. That's the latest one. Started in Boston, but it's it's spreading, like Salem witchcraft. Sorry, that was lame.
    [00:05:24] Josh Hutchinson: That's a perfect analogy.
    [00:05:27] Sarah Jack: It's a, it's an exciting and positive one, though.
    [00:05:31] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:05:32] Josh Hutchinson: You had mentioned early on that there was a gap in the executions between, I think 1656 and 1688. Why was there such a long period where they weren't executing anyone?
    [00:05:47] Alyssa Conary: I think they, like I said, they didn't like to execute people. I think for a long time that they were just, "yeah, we're not really gonna do that anymore." Maybe, you know, it wasn't a conscious decision, but it was just, they were just very, it was actually a situation where from the top, the Court of Assistants, the judges, the center of the thing in Boston, they were like a mitigating force on this witchcraft accusing, so they'd be like, you know this, okay we'll hear this case, but it was hard to prove in court.
    So it was hard. It was really, it was hard to get a conviction. And then you have 1688, which happens. That one's kind of weird, because you do have afflicted children, so it's like a, it's like a lead up to Salem. There is an execution in that case.
    But before that, I just, I think that they were just slow to wanna execute people, which I feel like the stereotype of Massachusetts puritans is probably just the opposite, but, in my opinion, they didn't wanna do it. They felt like they had to sometimes, but they didn't love doing it.
    [00:06:50] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, in the early years, Connecticut was the place where you were more likely to get hanged, and that really surprises people.
    [00:06:58] Alyssa Conary: Yes. Yeah. Connecticut in the 1660s had a big witch panic, and that was huge until Salem happened and Salem was much bigger. But yeah, Connecticut was not a good place to be accused of witchcraft.
    [00:07:13] Sarah Jack: And the 1688 case, was that Goody Glover?
    [00:07:17] Alyssa Conary: That's Goody Glover. Yep.
    [00:07:19] Sarah Jack: And why was she chosen as a scapegoat?
    [00:07:22] Alyssa Conary: She was Irish. And it's interesting, because there is that scapegoating aspect of witch hunting, but at the same time, usually the majority of people that are being accused are members of the community who are basically just like their accusers, the same religion, oftentimes they're neighbors. They're pretty much like the same people that they're accusing. It's like this purge from within a community.
    But you would have, once in a while, you'd have someone who was inside a community, but who was an outsider on the inside. And that's the case with Goody Glover. She was an Irish Catholic woman, and her first language was Irish Gaelic. She was someone who stood out, and that could be part of the reason why she was accused to begin with.
    [00:08:05] Josh Hutchinson: How many people were executed before Salem?
    [00:08:10] Alyssa Conary: Before Salem, in Massachusetts, it's five people.
    [00:08:13] Josh Hutchinson: And who was the first one?
    [00:08:16] Alyssa Conary: The first one, that's a little bit confusing because it could have either been, most sources say Margaret Jones, but there's some question as to when Elizabeth Kendall was executed. It could have been earlier, but we're not positive, because the sources are very bare.
    [00:08:32] Sarah Jack: And what are those early sources that discuss those two ladies?
    [00:08:37] Alyssa Conary: So for the most part, with the five who are executed, who are the ones I've done the most research and reading on, there are no trial records for any of them, any of the five. There's some kind of strange gaps in the Court of Assistants records there. They're missing basically all of the early stuff.
    I think it's in like the 1670s that, the record kind of begins. So they're missing the early stuff, and then strangely they're missing like 1687 and 1688, which is exactly when Goody Glover happens. So you really don't have court records for these five women, but you have contemporary accounts.
    So with Margaret Jones, you have Governor Winthrop, his journal, which is great. And you also have John Hale's book, Reverend John Hale's book, Modest Enquiry into the Nature of Witchcraft. And then for Elizabeth Kendall, I think it's just Hale. That's the only source we have for her. And so we know it was sometime between 1647 and 1651. But we can't exactly be sure when.
    [00:09:44] Sarah Jack: What does he say about her?
    [00:09:46] Alyssa Conary: For Elizabeth Kendall?
    Yeah. So he basically, he was very small. He actually visited some of these people in jail, John Hale, when he was a child. And I don't remember if he visited Elizabeth Kendall, it might've been actually Margaret Jones that he visited, but for Elizabeth Kendall. So what happened with her was she's interesting because, you always hear people believed in witchcraft. So I know there wasn't a lot of fraud. And I do believe that, I don't think that there was a lot of fraud, people accusing people knowing that they were lying about it. But this is a case where it's pretty obvious that's what happened.
    So a nurse, so Elizabeth Kendall, she was from Cambridge. A nurse from Watertown accused her of bewitching a child to death, and the nurse testified that this is what she said here, actually have her words, "Elizabeth did make much of the child, and then the child was well, but quickly changed its color and died in a few hours after." So what happened is Goodman Jennings, who was the father of the child, he was apparently unaware of the evidence that was given against Elizabeth, because after she was executed, we don't know what was said in court or what the evidence was in court, 'cause we don't have the record, but after her execution, a deputy to the general court named Richard Brown went and talked to the Jennings family. And he asked whether the family had suspected Elizabeth of murdering their child. And the father was like, no. They thought the child's death was the nurse's fault, because she had kept the child outside in the cold for too long.
    And this is the same nurse who testified against Elizabeth. So basically it looks like what happened was she just blamed Elizabeth for something that she had actually done. So the nurse was subsequently actually in prison for adultery, Hale says and she gave birth to a child, apparently in jail, and Richard Brown, the deputy to the general court, he visited her in jail and apparently told her, and I have that quote as well.
    "It was just with God to leave her to this wickedness as a punishment for her murdering Goody Kendall by her false witness bearing." So there is a very clear example, early example of a fraudulent witchcraft accusation.
    [00:11:57] Sarah Jack: Wow. That's so interesting, because that's like a question people have often about the different cases, and here is the story. That is the story. And then I was curious, you're calling her a nurse. How is that different than, so like for non historians who are, hear that healers or midwives are involved in which trials, what's that role of the nurse?
    [00:12:22] Alyssa Conary: You know what? I'm not sure to be honest why she is called mmm a nurse. I think that might have just been like a modern word that they used to call her. I'm not sure that was actually in the historic testimony that they called her a nurse. I would have to double check about that. But but yeah you get to, you're mentioning that the healer midwife sort of myth, which I've actually been thinking a lot about lately.
    So you can see that people in the medical profession were also accusing others. So it wasn't, it wasn't just people coming after healers and midwives. Actually midwives mostly gave evidence against accused witches, because they would be the ones who would search their bodies for witch marks.
    But that being said, there is something to it. There's some kernel of truth in this this myth that healers were targeted. I don't think that there's evidence in New England for the doctors going after midwives. That's one big myth. I don't think there's evidence for that, but, and Paul Moyer actually, who just recently published a book about witch hunting in the Atlantic world, he looks at New England, but he ties it into things that were happening in England at the same time. So he describes it really well. He says that there's no like clearcut connection between midwifery and witchcraft accusations. But there is this sort of connection between like healing in general and like medical practice in general, because being a healer, you'd be put in these situations where someone could end up dying under your care.
    And then that was the perfect opportunity for a family member to accuse you of witchcraft. So just by the nature of the profession, you were more vulnerable, I think. I don't think that there were a lot of healers accused, but it did happen. There's some truth to it. Truth for sure.
    [00:14:11] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I haven't seen many that stand out as like professional healers. I've seen a lot who seem to have had things in their medicine cabinet, so to speak, that they used to treat people within their own home. Yeah.
    [00:14:28] Alyssa Conary: Of course. Yeah. Which is what mainly would be the role of the woman in the house. As far as the people who were known as healers, I think out of the like 27 that are tried in Mass Bay before Salem, I think there's only four who were known as being healers in their community.
    So it did happen, but probably wasn't an organized conspiracy against healers and midwives.
    [00:14:54] Sarah Jack: We did some research when we were working on our episodes that we put out on the Connecticut history and looking at some of those individuals, and sometimes an author would label somebody a healer, but there was maybe one thing mentioned that could be viewed at in a different way even, or just as the medicine cabinet healer
    [00:15:25] Alyssa Conary: right.
    [00:15:25] Sarah Jack: there, is there record or diary or anything that ever talks about one of these women who you know was doing that for her neighbors regularly?
    [00:15:36] Alyssa Conary: I think with the four that are more known as healers in their communities, there's I don't know of any diaries. I just know of contemporary accounts of their accusations. I know, let's see, there's one, Mary Hale, she's a Boston widow. She had a sort of, I don't wanna call a hospital, but like a place where people came to be like cared for.
    And this ended up not, it didn't end well for her because she was accused of witchcraft, but she was acquitted, so she was never executed. But for the most part, like Josh was saying, it's unclear, because medical care was usually done at home by the woman in the house. So someone could be involved with healing, but not necessarily be known as a healer.
    [00:16:24] Sarah Jack: And Mary Hale is my 10th great grandmother.
    [00:16:27] Alyssa Conary: Stop it. Are you serious?
    [00:16:29] Sarah Jack: If like the records indicate that she was indeed Winifred Benham's mother, have you looked at that at all?
    [00:16:38] Alyssa Conary: No, I haven't.
    [00:16:39] Sarah Jack: Winifred Benham was and her daughter, Winifred Junior, were the last case tried in Hartford, in 1697. But if you go back to Mary Hale's case, her granddaughter, Joanna, ties Mary and Winifred, because Joanna is Winifred's daughter.
    [00:17:00] Alyssa Conary: Wow. It runs in families, right?
    [00:17:03] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And it's interesting, both Mary and Winifred Senior disappear from the record after their trials. There's nothing that shows when they died or where they went. Joanna, you can trace into New York and Winifred Junior, you can trace her marriage too. But both of those senior women, we know nothing after they were acquitted.
    [00:17:26] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, I know there's so many like that, because 17th century women, there's not much to start with. There's not that much out there about them. So yes. So many of these women, we do lose them after the trials. That's the last we hear of them. That's fascinating, Mary, so you're a Hale. Wow. Very cool.
    [00:17:45] Sarah Jack: Yeah. And I didn't understand that connection until our Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project started, 'cause we just were doing more research. And since that's my direct, Winifred was my interest in the Connecticut witch trials. That case, there's a lot of, it's not misinformation, but it's not primary source information that's been passed around, where she's possibly buried, which there's actually no indication of her burial, 'cause there's no indication of her death either.
    But there's a really great article that I found that talks about the trial records for Mary Hale and then that's how that author made the connection. And that was exciting to me, because that was like, oh, this is record because with Winifred and Winifred Junior, there's not much actual trial record.
    [00:18:37] Alyssa Conary: For Mary Hale there, there is an entry in the Court of Assistants that mentions her. There's not transcripts. I don't think there are trial transcripts for any of them, but yeah, I do remember seeing Mary Hale was mentioned in the Court of Assistants records as a widow from Boston.
    [00:18:53] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. Were there other cases that you know of witchcraft being passed down in the family?
    [00:19:01] Alyssa Conary: Oh yeah, for sure. The one that comes to mind right now is Ann Burt from Lynn, who is one of the women actually who was known as a healer and, in the community. And she was tried and evidently acquitted. I don't know if there's an actual record of her acquittal, but she shows up later, so we know she wasn't executed, so she was probably acquitted. Her granddaughter is Elizabeth Proctor from the Salem Trials. So there was that suspicion hanging on her, because of her grandmother being accused of witchcraft. I think it is mentioned at least once.
    [00:19:42] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I was curious about that. How many of these earlier trials in Massachusetts maybe had some connections to Salem or other trials?
    [00:19:53] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. You have the same, it is the same guys in charge in the mid to late 17th century. So you have some of the same judges at the trials. Mary Hale's acquittal, you have Nathaniel Saltonstall, William Stoughton, Bartholomew Gedney, and John Richards are the judges involved, and she's acquitted. Mary Webster, 1683, you have William Stoughton and Bartholomew Gedney and also acquitted. James Fuller, acquitted in 1683, also you have William Stoughton which it just makes me wonder if he was just seething, because we know he was very enthusiastic about convicting witches. There must have been, like I said, these sort of other forces that were keeping it in check back in the 1680s, and then when Salem happened, he just got to let it rip pretty much. So yeah, you do have some of the same guys that are on the Court of Assistants.
    And then you have a couple of Salem victims who are actually accused for the first time earlier in the century. Susannah Martin, who's actually my husband's ancestor, she was acquitted of witchcraft in 1669. And then you have Bridget Bishop, she's acquitted in, presumably acquitted, 'cause obviously she wasn't killed until later. In 1680 so she's not Bridgett Bishop, yet, she's Bridget Oliver at that time.
    So you do have some people showing up in more than one story and then showing up again in Salem, for sure.
    [00:21:19] Sarah Jack: It was so enjoyable to hear you say who was sitting at her trial, Mary Hale's. Thank you I had not seen that yet.
    [00:21:27] Alyssa Conary: It's four of the guys who were on the Court of Oyer and Terminer. And I think it's interesting that Saltonstall was on there. He's the one who left early on. He is, "you know what? I don't have the stomach for this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take off," we presume.
    [00:21:41] Josh Hutchinson: It is fascinating.
    [00:21:43] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. It's the same guys, it's just something changed. Basically, what changed for Salem was that there was no one in charge after the charter was revoked. And even though they had this new charter in 1691, they hadn't reestablished the courts or the laws yet. So it was the governor, Phips, was like, "let's set up this court illegally." And the judges got to pretty much convict people however they wanted to. That's one reason why Salem got so out of hand, because these guys are, it's the inmates running the asylum here. There are no rules. There's no one in charge really.
    [00:22:21] Sarah Jack: It makes me think of this meme that I've seen. The guy hands a note to this officer, and the officer reads it, and it says, "oh, this just says you can do whatever you want."
    [00:22:32] Alyssa Conary: So basically what happens, that's what Phips gave to William Stoughton. He had carte blanc. Phips didn't want anything to do with it. He just wanted it to go away. So he just hands it over to them and is, "okay, do what needs to be done."
    [00:22:45] Sarah Jack: Whereas the Boston Court was running for more than just...
    [00:22:50] Alyssa Conary: Exactly, yep. It was a center of political power. And it was, there was checks and balances, which is not, again, what people think about Puritan New England as being this moderate place. It is obviously, it's religiously driven, but they took laws seriously, and they didn't, like I said, I, they didn't wanna execute a bunch of people.
    Yeah it, and it changes. It changes, and it has a lot to do with the politics. And I think the best book for understanding kind of the situation with the charter and with the political climate is Emerson Baker, A Storm of Witchcraft. If anybody's really interested in learning more about the judges and the politics, he does a really excellent job of explaining that whole dynamic.
    [00:23:33] Josh Hutchinson: I'm wondering, was there a lot of spectral evidence involved in cases outside of Salem?
    [00:23:41] Alyssa Conary: No, absolutely not. It was not seen as very reliable or valid evidence. And of course, in England you have these guys writing handbooks on how to prosecute witches. And there's some differing opinions. Some of them do put stock in spectral evidence, and others say, "no, it can't be used to prove witchcraft."
    But for the most part, I think in New England, in the 17th century, no, they didn't wanna use that to convict people. The big thing that would get you convicted was a confession, again, before Salem, because Salem is completely different. But before Salem, you wanna get that confession. But that doesn't happen very often.
    So another way to get a conviction would be to have two witnesses who witness the same sort of act of witchcraft. And that was another big way to get people convicted. But no, spectral evidence was not really seen as a reliable way to prosecute people. I think with Elizabeth Morse from Newbury, who actually was convicted in 1679 but then reprieved, actually, I think it's John Hale, who later says her being reprieved might've had something to do with the fact that the judges did use some spectral evidence to convict her and then subsequently realized, "okay, maybe we shouldn't have done that." So yeah, no, it was not reliable.
    And then again, like we have said a million times, and then in Salem it was just like night and day. It was just like, okay, we're just gonna use, it's, it was a free for all.
    [00:25:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. And it's like you said, a lot of the same people making the decision to suddenly include spectral evidence.
    [00:25:21] Alyssa Conary: It makes you wonder what they were thinking at those earlier trials where people were being acquitted. I think about Stoughton just probably super angry every single time someone was acquitted. He had to play by the rules.
    [00:25:34] Sarah Jack: He was ready to unleash when 1692 came.
    [00:25:38] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, he was ready. He was ready. To me, he's the biggest villain. He's the biggest Salem villain in my mind, for sure.
    [00:25:44] Josh Hutchinson: I agree. One that judge that surprises me is Waitstill Winthrop, because his father, John Winthrop, Jr. was very opposed to spectral evidence, and he brought in the two witness rule into Connecticut witch trial cases, and then Waitstill's like, "whatever Dad."
    [00:26:06] Alyssa Conary: John Winthrop, Jr. It's funny. And then you go back to his father and his father was just like super haunted by all of this stuff and did some very strange things. But yeah, it is interesting that Waitstill Winthrop then, maybe it was a way to differentiate himself from his father.
    [00:26:24] Josh Hutchinson: Sided with granddad or something.
    [00:26:28] Alyssa Conary: I mean, I think Winthrop was pretty earnest in wanting to believe what he thought was the right thing to believe. But yeah, you can't read his diary without thinking, "wow, the guy was such a jerk." Yeah, he said some pretty interesting things, and the antinomian controversy, he did some pretty questionable things. Yeah, that, it is really interesting to look at those three generations and how their opinions differed and their actions differed, for sure.
    [00:26:55] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I noticed the victims we've talked about so far have all been women. Why were women the predominant victims of witch trials?
    [00:27:08] Alyssa Conary: The short answer is that they were believed to be more susceptible to the devil. And I always giggled to myself when I see that in, in a book and the scholar will say it wasn't because of misogyny, it was because they were believed to be more susceptible to witchcraft. And then I say to myself, "isn't that pretty misogynistic?" I don't know. And this isn't every book about witchcraft, but it's just a few times I've read these people dance around it. They don't want it, they don't wanna admit that it's misogyny. But it's absolutely an aspect I think it wasn't, again, just like with the midwives, I don't think it was this coordinated conspiracy like, "oh, we're gonna, call them witches just so we can kill them." No, they really believed in witches for the most part. But yeah, they thought women were more likely to be witches, and something like four out of five of people accused, I think, I wanna say it was four out of five were women. Something like 80 to 90% I wanna say. And that differed in other parts of the world. There were some places where actually more men were accused. But when we're talking about England and New England, there is an aspect of misogyny to it. Women were definitely more likely to be believed to be witches for sure.
    [00:28:18] Sarah Jack: I wish there was more information on Thomas Jones. There's some secondary mentioning of his being accused or arrested after his wife had been hanged for witchcraft. I don't know any more than that, but I know that's like somewhat different than some of the other situations where the husband and the wife were arrested together, and then the husband was not found guilty.
    That would be in Connecticut, or the couple in Connecticut where they were both found guilty. I wanted to know more of this backstory with the Jones that when his wife was hanged, it wasn't over. I wish I knew. And then is he the first man that we know of in Massachusetts who was accused?
    [00:29:00] Alyssa Conary: I'm not sure about that. That is pretty, pretty early. He's definitely one of the first, and he is absolutely. He is put in jail. But he's never prosecuted, I don't think. And then you get to the Parsons where it's the opposite. But yeah, you do see these sort of like married sort of duos where they'll both be accused, but generally speaking it was much more likely that the wife would be executed statistically speaking. So there you go again.
    [00:29:33] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and it's really similar. We've had guests on recently talking about witch hunts today, and you still see that pattern with the women in most locations. There are like regions of Papua New Guinea where more men are accused, regions of other nations where more men are accused. But overall, it's still that very high ratio of
    [00:30:01] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:30:01] Josh Hutchinson: women to men.
    [00:30:04] Alyssa Conary: And I think it's a bigger question. Why do men kill women? Like I said, it's not, the witchcraft accusations, it's not a coordinated conspiracy clearly, but there's gotta be some reason why men kill women. It's just, it's always been that way. It's still that way today. I think we have to ask those questions, like, why? And maybe instead of shying away from the misogyny piece, confront it.
    [00:30:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
    [00:30:31] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    We need to do it for the future victims. Discussing it, talking about it, those conversations have to become more comfortable.
    [00:30:41] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, absolutely. I think as far as like the witchcraft scholarship goes, the early stuff, the Margaret Murray and all of that, and the fertility cults and the, I, people wanted to react against that scholarship and didn't wanna make it about misogyny, but it's there. It's there, and we can't ignore it.
    [00:31:02] Josh Hutchinson: It's pretty plain when you see the comments of some of the people in the New England Witch Trials, at least, some of the comments that the men made about the women, like Cotton Mather's not my favorite guy. He's not he's not so nice when he writes about, say, Martha Carrier as a rampant hag, and John Winthrop's not so kind calling everybody a witch and everything.
    [00:31:34] Alyssa Conary: oh, Yeah, Winthrop, man, he writes some real misogynistic stuff. Cotton Mather, he's fascinating to me, cause initially he's telling the judges to use caution at Salem. And then he becomes the guy who does the whole government defense of the trials.
    But yeah, yeah, one thing, Winthrop, he really, the way he wrote about Margaret Jones to me was like, ugh. Wow. He talks about her "behavior," quote unquote, at her trial. And I have his quote here somewhere, and it's just, here it is. "Her behavior at trial was very intemperate, lying notoriously and railing upon the jury and witnesses. And in the distemper, she died. The same day and hour she was executed, there was a very great tempest at Connecticut, which blew down many trees."
    And it's dude, like, if you were about to be executed, maybe you'd be acting intemporately, like I think, and then you get the account from Hale about her, and Hale is saying he went to visit Margaret, and they had urged her to confess, and she had insisted, "as for witchcraft," this is the quote, "as for witchcraft, she was wholly free from it, and so she said unto her death," and it just gives her like more of this like earnest sort of victim, description of her as like this earnest victim. And then you have Winthrop who's basically describing her as like this crazy woman who's yelling and screaming.
    But of course she was, like, she was going to be executed for something that she was denying, and she was terrified, and she was angry. And it's just like what he says, it's just just being a crazy woman, just lying and railing upon people. And yeah, that one has always really bothered me.
    [00:33:16] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's like blaming her for you, just saying, oh, she was hysterical. And uh, you know, he doesn't use the word.
    [00:33:25] Alyssa Conary: Pretty much. Yes. She's a hysterical woman. It's like women weren't allowed to be people at so many times in history and even today, but we don't even have to touch that. Obviously it's an issue. Obviously misogyny is an issue. It always has been. And it is still today.
    [00:33:44] Sarah Jack: I wonder how Margaret's fight for her life, since she was one of the early ones, intimidated the next women.
    [00:33:57] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:33:57] Sarah Jack: It didn't play out well for her. Her fight didn't, and then they're being read or reading the account that there was the hearsay of the account or they witnessed it, and then how she was recorded in history.
    [00:34:11] Alyssa Conary: It's terrifying. There's also this account after she's indicted of her sitting with her friend, Alice Stratton. And the account was given that she that Alice Stratton had a bible on her lap, and they were both crying, and that has always hit me pretty hard, too. Margaret Jones is fascinating to me and I just wish that we knew more about her. So you get this whole gamut of emotions from this woman who's facing this terrifying thing and it just makes it so real.
    [00:34:44] Sarah Jack: yeah.
    [00:34:44] Alyssa Conary: You read these accounts. Yeah. Makes it so immediate and scary and I'm sure people reading about that, hearing about that, more likely, would've been terrifying to hear for sure.
    [00:34:58] Sarah Jack: And possibly at that point she had hope that someone was gonna hear her message and hear her plea. It was worth fighting for it, because what if somebody stands up for her?
    [00:35:12] Alyssa Conary: Exactly. And nobody did. And apparently she made the weather really bad in Connecticut.
    [00:35:19] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
    [00:35:20] Alyssa Conary: Silly.
    That, that was a big, that was a big witchcraft belief back then was that witches could control the weather. But yeah, it's just, it's very sad.
    [00:35:29] Josh Hutchinson: On this topic of misogyny, I was thinking about how the women were physically examined, at least at Salem. Were they physically inspected in these earlier trials, as well?
    [00:35:43] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. And that would actually mostly be by other women. And yeah, it, I mean it went on in the earlier trials too, to find, try to find, the witches teat or the witches mark that was not good enough to convict someone, but it was good, like corroborating evidence if they had other evidence. And God knows what they were actually looking at. I actually think Alice Stratton had something to say about that, because they did supposedly find a witch's mark on Margaret Jones. Yeah, she they found a witch's teet, and Alice Stratton says it's just an injury related to childbirth.
    [00:36:19] Josh Hutchinson: Like Rebecca Nurse.
    [00:36:20] Alyssa Conary: Exactly, yeah, exactly. They're seeing these marks or whatever, which probably have perfectly reasonable explanations, but but yeah, they are it is, it's it's an assault. It's an assault being, their bodies being searched, for sure. But like I said, it was usually women who did it, but I'm not gonna, I'm sure at some point there were men doing it as well. And that's horrifying to think about. But yeah, that's an assault, basically.
    [00:36:46] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's so invasive, and I've noticed in my reading of witch trials that for women, the witch's teet is almost always found in the secret parts. For men, it's on their shoulder or their neck or something.
    [00:37:05] Alyssa Conary: That, That. Interesting. Yeah.
    [00:37:07] Josh Hutchinson: So yeah, they didn't get the same
    [00:37:09] Alyssa Conary: like someone's just really preoccupied with a female genitalia. There's so much, there's so much here that is just so clear, so clearly, just.
    [00:37:21] Sarah Jack: Preoccupied but unaware at the same time. It's surprising that they couldn't start to understand it since they were looking at it
    [00:37:30] Alyssa Conary: interesting is
    If they had midwives looking for it, these midwives must have seen things like that before. So why would they be so quick to say, were they pressured into saying it ever that it was a witch, I don't know. I that's the thing is you always wish you could be there and see the things that happened that weren't written about, and I can only imagine. I can only imagine. I bet some women went through some really horrible things
    [00:37:55] Sarah Jack: Rebecca said, take another look. Have an actual expert look, because
    [00:38:01] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:38:02] Sarah Jack: is wrong.
    [00:38:03] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. Her case is, that's a tough one.
    [00:38:07] Sarah Jack: she's she's my ninth great grandma. So I get real
    [00:38:11] Alyssa Conary: How many,
    [00:38:12] Sarah Jack: her
    [00:38:13] Alyssa Conary: oh, wow. Do you have any more? Is that the only two? Mary Hale and Rebecca Nurse
    [00:38:18] Sarah Jack: so mary, It is a lot. Mary Esty, her sister, their grandchildren married and I descend. There's a line of Russells that goes down several generations and I descend out of there. And so I knew about Rebecca since I was a teenager. And then as I started doing my own research seven years ago or so, I realized, oh, Mary is my grandmother too.
    and
    [00:38:41] Alyssa Conary: fascinating.
    [00:38:42] Sarah Jack: a few years after that, I discovered Winifred on my dad's, side of my tree. And then I'm like, oh, I wanna find out where her memorial is. And then the rest
    [00:38:51] Alyssa Conary: So when did your family leave New England? 'cause they must have been there early on.
    [00:38:55] Sarah Jack: They all left pretty quickly. So the Towne descendants moved into Vermont, that I come from, and then my line left Vermont about five generations back from me and moved into the Midwest. So I am, I'm an Iowan. And All of my New England ancestors, and there's a lot, they ended up coming through Ohio, Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa.
    [00:39:22] Alyssa Conary: Oh, that's fascinating. My husband, he is his family, it's like they came over from England and they're still there. Like they never, it's, he is, oh my gosh. He's related to so many colonial people. And like I said, Susannah Martin is his ancestor, which I find, I always look at my kids and think, wow, it's really cool, because she was such a firecracker. I really think that's a plus to be a descendant of Susannah Martin. She was awesome.
    [00:39:50] Sarah Jack: Awesome.
    [00:39:51] Alyssa Conary: But he, let's see, I think he's a Towne as well, somehow not a direct descendant of one of the sisters, but one of a descendant of one of their brothers. I think. I have no ancestors that I know of that my, all my ancestors were Quaker, not, I haven't found any that were actually executed, but definitely put in jail a lot.
    [00:40:10] Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
    [00:40:11] Alyssa Conary: yeah.
    [00:40:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm also a Mary Esty descendant. My grandfather was from Danvers and he just moved to California after World War II. He, the Navy sent him there and he stayed so up until two generations ago, a quarter of my family at least was Essex County
    [00:40:35] Alyssa Conary: You're recently from Danvers. Yeah. That's fascinating
    [00:40:37] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
    Pretty recently. Just yeah, just a couple generations ago. I feel a closeness to Danvers and that area and
    [00:40:47] Alyssa Conary: I love Danvers.
    [00:40:49] Josh Hutchinson: Uh, like dozens of ancestors and close relatives that were involved in Salem on the accuser side as well as the accused and the in-between just playing different roles, giving testimony, signing petitions.
    [00:41:07] Alyssa Conary: Her letter, Mary Easty's letter, that, that blows my mind. They just, the Peabody Essex Museum had a, an exhibit, a Salem Witch Trials exhibit, and they actually had the actual piece of paper on display. And that was crazy to see. Yeah.
    [00:41:23] Sarah Jack: Yeah. You know that no more innocent should die. She said that in 1692, and that hasn't stopped yet. So I'm really motivated by those words of her to keep pulling out the education and pushing out the word, because the innocent need to stop dying. They, those women who were pleading for their lives then didn't want others to suffer.
    [00:41:54] Alyssa Conary: And it's happening.
    [00:41:56] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    [00:41:56] Alyssa Conary: again and again. Yeah.
    [00:41:59] Sarah Jack: I was curious if you wanted to tell us anything about the hanging site in Boston.
    [00:42:03] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. Traditionally, people have believed that in the 17th century the hangings were on Boston Common. And I know that in later centuries, actually, there were a few people hanged on Boston Common, as we know it today. But in the 17th century there were other pieces of land that were common land, and if you look at the maps from the early 18th century that exist, the gallows was actually on Boston Neck on some common land there. It's likely that sort of led to the misconception that they were happening on Boston Common, because that was also Boston land. So there is evidence, at least by the mid 17th century that yeah, people were, the gallows people were being executed on Boston Neck, which was this little tiny strip of land that connected the Shawmut Peninsula to the mainland.
    Now there's a bunch of landfill around it, it's, there isn't a tiny little strip of land anymore, but it's clearly marked on these early 18th century maps that that was the execution site,
    [00:43:01] Josh Hutchinson: So basically instead of hanging them in the center of town, they're taking them out towards the edge of town.
    [00:43:10] Alyssa Conary: Which was usually the case in 17th century New England, is they would execute people outside of town.
    [00:43:16] Sarah Jack: Which is a possible detail in Connecticut, in Hartford, possibly. We don't know.
    [00:43:25] Alyssa Conary: Do they, I don't even, you know what, I'm so uneducated about the Connecticut trials, even though I find them absolutely fascinating. Do they have a, know of the execution site in Hartford?
    [00:43:34] Josh Hutchinson: We think that we have a leading contender for it. It's, there's an old land transfer from the early 18th century that references a plot of land where the gallows once stood, and you can trace that, who owned that land, through the generations up till now, how it's transferred over the years, and what it's transformed into.
    But there's a legend that goes along with it of the Witch Elm. And back in 1930, they tore this witch elm down. So it, that doesn't stand there anymore. But the gallows were supposedly, like near that tree. That tree was the landmark. It used to be on a rise, which has since been graded down level, but it was up above, and it's about a mile from downtown Hartford. So again, it was on the town edge, it was on a road leading to the cow pasture. And yeah, it's just at the edge of what the town was at the time.
    [00:44:47] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. Yeah. Which that is to be expected, which is the reason why Boston Neck is such a better location than Boston Common, because it was on the outside of town. So that's at least, Anne Hibbins and Goody Glover I'm pretty sure it would've been Boston Neck. Yeah.
    [00:45:06] Sarah Jack: And would've they discarded the bodies right there?
    [00:45:09] Alyssa Conary: I think that was usually the practice with executions. I don't specifically know of any evidence, but it's probably, it's safe to say that is most likely what would've happened, yep.
    [00:45:21] Josh Hutchinson: Okay. The question, what lessons can we learn from the past witch trials that we could apply today?
    [00:45:30] Alyssa Conary: Oh man. Yeah, that's a, I actually love, as a historian, on the one hand, you have to be able to recognize that the past is unique and that it has to be looked at for the sake of looking at it. And it has to be looked at from its own perspective. But, that being said, I think, I do think that there are, lessons. I do think that if history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes. Someone said that once, I cannot remember who said that, but I loved it that history rhymes. So I think it is very useful to look for lessons.
    And as far as witch trials go, I think the lesson is to not get carried away. If you're looking at things like Salem, singling people out and demonizing them is something that humans have always done. But we can get into this sort of mode where we're not even seeing clearly anymore, where it's just like other people aren't even people to us anymore. And I think being able to pull ourselves back and ground ourselves back in, in a place where we can look at others and actually see them as people is really important.
    And it's scary, because, America today and like how divided we are. It's such a cliche, but it's true. And people, I feel like people don't even really see the humanity of other people at times. So I think that's the lesson is just stay in touch with people's humanity, other people's humanity. Don't forget about it. So I think that's probably one of the biggest lessons.
    [00:47:13] Sarah Jack: I think that's such a good reminder, because if things are hard and ugly, which surround a lot of witch hunting situations, and you hold onto that strand of humanity, it's the lifeline. It can pull everyone through to the other side less harmed. Working together, finding the common ground, healing through something together instead of divided would be great.
    [00:47:43] Alyssa Conary: Absolutely. Yeah. To think more about what you have in common than what might be different. That I think that loss of humanity is, and you see it in all kinds of discrimination and singling out of people. So it's just important to not forget that we need to take care of each other. That is just like something that is just gets so lost today is there's just no concept of I think the the sort of importance of taking care of other people is just like completely lost in our political discourse today. Yeah. It's all about seeing the humanity of others for sure.
    [00:48:24] Josh Hutchinson: Right now there's a lack of a collective, a feeling of that our society is a collective
    [00:48:33] Alyssa Conary: a
    [00:48:34] Josh Hutchinson: society. Yes. It's more I am out for me. Yeah, and you're out for you and yeah.
    And then it's easy if I have a problem to go blame it on somebody else. I don't want to take responsibility. Like the case you mentioned earlier where with the nurse and the baby died, because she had it out in the cold, if that's the way it went down. It's the same kind of thing today where something bad happens and you weren't prepared for it and instead of saying, "how could I have prepared for this?" You say, "who's responsible?"
    [00:49:16] Alyssa Conary: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's just that loss of the idea of actually being responsible for the people around you.
    [00:49:25] Josh Hutchinson: We talked to economist Boris Gershman about what can be done about witch trials, and he was talking about how having a social safety net is important, because people are less likely to go out looking for who to blame if they've got some kind of backup, insurance. And I've heard that the ending of the early modern witch hunts, it coincided with a lot of institutionalization, but it also coincided with the advent of insurance.
    [00:50:00] Alyssa Conary: I think that's valid. Absolutely. When people are without any sort of help or any sense that things are gonna get better or that they can be better, absolutely the tendency for human beings is to lash out and blame someone. But yeah, no, I think there's absolutely something to that makes sense.
    [00:50:20] Josh Hutchinson: To change the subject a little bit, the question that just came to me was, had to do with Matthew Hopkins of England, the infamous witchfinder general that he called himself.
    [00:50:36] Alyssa Conary: Okay.
    [00:50:37] Josh Hutchinson: He wrote his book, A Discovery of Witches. And in that book he talks about his methods that he used and those included things like watching people to see if their familiars came to feed. Were any of those techniques employed in the Massachusetts Witch Trials?
    [00:50:57] Alyssa Conary: Yes, Margaret Jones was watched, and that was, it's funny, because it was, that's around the same time that's happening in England. So they are reading and hearing about Matthew Hopkins and that's evidence that they're using some of the same tactics here. So that's great evidence of the sort of back and forth that's happening between England and New England at the time. She was watched while she was in jail and I mean I, it could be seen as a form of torture, really. It's Matthew Hopkins. Wow. That whole thing was horrifying. Again, Paul Moyer's book, which why can't I think of the title?
    [00:51:36] Josh Hutchinson: Detestable and Wicked Arts.
    [00:51:38] Alyssa Conary: That's it. Yes. I love it. I've read it twice.
    He actually does, he makes that argument that, it's not a coincidence that this all starts up in New England around, 47, 48. That they are, hearing about what he's doing and going for it. And I think that makes a lot of sense.
    [00:51:56] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I
    [00:51:57] Alyssa Conary: But as far as
    his methods go, I think Margaret Jones is the only one that I can think of specifically that we'd know one of his tactics was used.
    [00:52:05] Josh Hutchinson: okay. Yeah. I think that people have this vision of New England as really being this independent entity, but it's obviously, it was very close with England, even though not geographically. You talked about the flow of information going back and
    [00:52:26] Alyssa Conary: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're, they're English. These are English people living across the Atlantic Ocean, but they're still English. And there is this back and forth, around the time of the English Civil Wars and you have people going back to England to fight for Cromwell.
    And you even have Hugh Peters who's one of the first Salem Reverends who goes back and he becomes, he's executed. He is one of the regicides who's executed for being a conspirator in the death of Charles I so there's absolutely. And there has been some written about this. I feel like there, it's not a ton, but I feel it's an area that's probably rich for a lot more research. But you do see these events in history that really remind you that these are English people living in New England.
    [00:53:17] Josh Hutchinson: It is interesting, like you said, when these witch trials start in New England, because in Connecticut you have Alice Young in 1647, and that's Matthew Hopkins time right there.
    [00:53:32] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, it's right there. It's something that I actually wondered about years ago and was like, I wonder if that's a thing and that, Moyer's book comes out and he just really lays it all out, like in a way that is just it's so obvious, that and it's crazy that no one had ever, really explicitly stated that before. But that's another book that I highly recommend if you're interested in this, because it's just phenomenal.
    [00:53:56] Josh Hutchinson: Another great book on that Malcolm Gaskill's The Ruin of All Witches
    [00:54:02] Alyssa Conary: Yep.
    [00:54:02] Josh Hutchinson: And,
    um,
    [00:54:04] Alyssa Conary: that book.
    [00:54:05] Josh Hutchinson: He also talks about the other factor in New England's settled first in 1620 and then Salem's founded in 1626. And there's people there for a couple decades before you start to see these trials. And I thought that his explanation of it takes a lot of like neighborhood friction basically building up these tensions and suspicions build up over the years.
    [00:54:36] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. They don't have beefs with anyone, yet. It's, everyone's just gotten here, so it takes some time. For sure. That's a, an absolutely spot on observation. I love that book. That book is just, talk about humanizing people from the past. He really just makes it feel so immediate. That's my favorite thing. Malcolm Gaskill is not only is he this, it's gonna become like a Malcolm Gaskill lovefest. Not only is he a phenomenal torian, but he is such an incredible writer. That book, like if you wanna get if you wanna feel close to the people that this happened to. That's the book to read for sure.
    Either that or Marilynne Roach, Six Women of Salem is the same sort of deal. That book just makes you feel like really another example of a great historian and a fantastic writer. Those two just really make you feel close to those victims, for sure.
    [00:55:28] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's like reading a novel or a almost a memoir. It's so personal and,
    [00:55:36] Alyssa Conary: it's,
    [00:55:37] Josh Hutchinson: And Malcolm Gaskill and Marilynne Roach, both just the details that they put in there. It makes it just seem so real, like you're watching it unfold.
    [00:55:49] Alyssa Conary: Yeah, it is. It's almost like watching a movie.
    [00:55:52] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, it's, those books are so good.
    [00:55:56] Alyssa Conary: Yeah. They're great. I.
    [00:55:58] Sarah Jack: What do you think, Josh? What else should we extract?
    [00:56:01] Josh Hutchinson: We haven't talked about Alice Lake. Do you have
    [00:56:06] Alyssa Conary: Alice. Yeah.
    [00:56:07] Josh Hutchinson: Lake?
    [00:56:09] Alyssa Conary: I, she is so fascinating to me. I know I say that about everyone 'cause they're all fascinating. But Alice Lake. Wow. I try, I have tried so hard to find more information about her and I cannot find a darn thing, let me tell you. And that's probably actually something that I'll continue looking for in the future, because I just need to know more about Alice Lake.
    [00:56:34] Josh Hutchinson: Yes.
    [00:56:34] Alyssa Conary: So yeah, just to talk about so the only evidence we have for what happened to Alice Lake is Hale. It's just his explanation of her being executed for witchcraft. Okay, so Alice Lake, she's from Dorchester and she's tried and executed, we think a about 1651.
    What Hale says is, okay, so on the day of her execution she's visited by Reverend William Thompson of Braintree, who is trying to convince her to repent her sins. And she denied she was guilty of witchcraft. She said, I'm innocent, but and this is, this part is so sad. She said, I'm innocent, but I deserve to die basically for my past sins. And she said, and I have her quote here from Hale. "She explained that she had when a single woman played the harlot and being with child used means to destroy the fruit of her body to conceal her sin and shape." So basically she had an abortion, and she said, "I deserve to die because I had an abortion."
    And I just, that is just so poignantly sad to me. She saw herself as actually she believed that she was a murderer. And it just makes you think a lot about how these different, like women's issues and these events that happen in women's lives, like how those interplayed with the belief in witchcraft.
    And actually infanticide is something that you see a lot that coincides with witchcraft accusations. And there's also suspicions of infanticide or maybe actual infanticide. Parsons is a good example of that as well. So it's just more of that issue of like women and witchcraft.
    Like I feel like there's just so much more there to look into and examine. And Alice Lake, it's funny because we actually know her children end up in Rhode Island with their father. And so it's just, it is crazy that we like know what happens to them, but we know so little about her life, like almost nothing.
    There was one more bit of information about her and it was a letter to Increase Mather from his brother. Nathaniel told Increase, he heard Alice Lake was lured by the devil when he appeared to her in the likeness and acting the part of a child of hers than lately dead on whom her heart was much sad.
    So there you go. There's another just devastating event in a woman's life that could in some way be tied to an accusation of witchcraft. It's just really sad. It's you think about all the pain and then on top of that, then she is executed for witchcraft. It's just awful, and she thinks she deserves it.
    So yeah, Alice Lake is someone to me who is just especially fascinating and I really wish I could find out more about her.
    [00:59:16] Josh Hutchinson: It reminded me of some other stories of women who decide that having an accusation brought against them means that they've done something else wrong other than, they know that they're not witches, but they look what other sin did I commit that this is
    [00:59:38] Alyssa Conary: Right.
    [00:59:39] Josh Hutchinson: to me?
    Yeah.
    [00:59:40] Alyssa Conary: Exactly. Yeah. That's,
    [00:59:43] Sarah Jack: And in modern politics, there are some
    [00:59:46] Alyssa Conary: Yeah.
    [00:59:48] Sarah Jack: men politicians who would believe that, because they said that when we were, when we were
    [00:59:54] Alyssa Conary: that for sure. Hmm.
    [00:59:54] Sarah Jack: for the exoneration of the Connecticut victims, there were some politicians that were highly concerned that we did not touch what other moral infractions, these culprits would've participated in, that we only acknowledge the compact with the devil because surely they were bad people already.
    [01:00:17] Alyssa Conary: There must be something else. Yeah. That's scary. And then when you talk about lessons you can learn, it feels like it's right. It really does sometimes feel like we're ripe for something like this to happen, and I hope I'm wrong. I really do. I hope it doesn't go that far.
    [01:00:33] Sarah Jack: It's
    [01:00:33] Alyssa Conary: and I know it is happening in other places for sure.
    It, I just feel like
    [01:00:39] Sarah Jack: It's gonna come down to the people standing up.
    But it's that whole concept of speaking up for those that aren't in the room. That's what's gonna stop it. There, there was this one attack in Papua New Guinea where a brave son pulled his mother off of the fire who was being burned for witchcraft belief. And she was harmed and she, she is suffering from what she went through, but he was brave and saved her life. And those are the types of actions that people will have to keep stepping up and doing, because it is possible for sanctioned witch trials to happen again. It, there's,
    [01:01:27] Alyssa Conary: yeah. Oh 100%. Yeah, it could happen for sure. It could absolutely happen. And I spend so much time these days like just looking at that rhyming, like I was talking about, that rhyming between history and being pretty freaked out by it, honestly.
    It's just interesting too that we've been saying this whole time that all this stuff about women is happening, again, and it's just all feels so familiar. Really does.
    [01:01:57] Sarah Jack: And now Mary Bingham is back for Minute with Mary.

    [01:02:08] Mary Bingham: Sarah Jack recently asked the listeners a vital question in the past episode of this podcast, Ending Sorcery Related Violence with Miranda Forsyth, as part of the End Witch-Hunt News segment. Sarah's question, is your family precious? My answer. You bet. Sarah was referring not only to each of our nuclear families, she also challenged me as a listener to place myself in families where witchcraft accusations destroyed that tight family unit.
    These accusations where the wrongful accused were murdered, caused harmful disruption and displacement, which not only sadly affected one generation, but many to follow. . This was the case of four year old Dorothy Good in 1692, whose story was so eloquently told in the episode of this podcast, Rachel Chris Christ-Doane on the Salem Witch Museum and the life of Dorothy Good.
    This was also the case for Kepari Leniata's six year old daughter who was viciously attacked for supposedly bewitching her friend who became seriously ill and died. As was the belief in 1692 when Dorothy Good's mother, Sarah was hanged for witchcraft, some still believed that witchcraft or sorcery, as it is known in Kepari's home country of Papua New Guinea, is passed down from mother to daughter.
    You might remember that Kepari was brutally murdered for the false accusation of sorcery herself when her daughter was only eight months old, leaving behind not only this precious infant, but a son and a husband as well. This family unit was smashed into pieces.
    Her daughter's vicious attack happened in 2017. However, there was hope when activists Ruth Kissam and Anton Lutz stepped in and saved the girl's life. Ruth welcomed her into her home and family. Ruth's brothers and nephews took such good care that she was able to find a new safety net. Ruth's family became her own.
    For more information on Kepari's story, please read my two articles regarding her case and that of her daughter on medium.com, "Kepari Leniata" and "Kepari Leniata: Her Legacy Lives On." Please listen to the two podcast episodes with Miranda Forsyth and Rachel Christ-Doane. Place yourself in these situations. Always stay tuned to listen to Sarah's End Witch Hunt News for current global News as to how communities and organizations fight daily to stop Deadly Witch Hunts. Then visit endwitchhunts.org to see how you can help to save a life. Thank you.

    [01:05:11] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:05:14] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.

    [01:05:24] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a Nonprofit 501(c)(3) Weekly News Update.
    So what exactly is this History Camp Boston that you heard about in Alyssa Conary's episode? It starts with The Pursuit of History, a nonprofit organization. They engage adults in conversation about history by connecting them with historic sites in their communities and across the country through innovative in-person and online programming.
    Their in-person annual events include History Camp Boston, Pursuit of History Weekends, and the weekly live, online, in-depth History Camp Discussions with noted historians and authors. History Camp Boston 2023 is about to become history, so don't miss it. It's in Boston, August 11th through the 13th, and they offer a scholarship for a free day for students for the August 12th date. See our show notes for the link. Get there.
    Every week, Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast brings both the history of the past witch trials and news and education about the current global effort of ending modern witch Hunts. Would you be surprised to hear that the United States is engaged in global development partnerships that can affect witch-hunt violence? In 2023, the United States has now kicked off a 10 year long-term initiative that will impact witch-hunt violence. The US Strategy to Prevent Conflict and Promote Stability is a long-term initiative to redefine how the United States prevents violence and advances stability in areas vulnerable to conflict.
    As you have learned from our academic, economist, and activist interviews and suggested books and other research reading, addressing witchcraft-related violence begins with offering solutions for communities that may reduce gender violence and offer stability for the vulnerable.
    The countries and communities targeted in this strategy are Coastal West Africa, Haiti, Libya, Mozambique, and Papua New Guinea.
    Quote, "these plans represent a meaningful, long-term commitment by the United States to build the political and economic resilience of partner societies by making strategic investments in prevention to mitigate the underlying vulnerabilities that can lead to conflict and violence and are critical to achieving lasting peace." -- President Joseph R. Biden, Jr. March 24th, 2023.
    Please read about this initiative now. Click the link in our show notes to see the USAID pamphlet on this initiative. Have you heard of the US Government Agency, USAID? The United States Agency for International Development, USAID, is, quote, "the world's premier international development agency and a catalytic actor driving development results. USAID's work advances US national security and economic prosperity, demonstrates American generosity, and promotes a path to recipient self-reliance and resilience." The USAID receives its funding from Congress. Thank you for being a part of the Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support.
    Keep sharing our episodes with your friends, have conversations with them about what you are learning and how you want to jump in and end Witch hunts with your particular abilities influence a network. Community development that works to end witch hunts is an ongoing long-term collective effort for all of us to participate in.
    You can learn by visiting our websites and the websites listed in our show notes for more information about country specific advocacy groups and development plans in motion across the globe. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org. And now that it's back to school pre-game time, be sure to share a link with your teacher friends. To support us, make a tax-deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a super listener? You can be a super listener by committing to as little as $3 a month, but don't stop there if you are really excited about our programming, go ahead and add a zero to that three. Your super listener donation is tax-deductible. Thank you for being a part of our work.

    [01:09:13] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:09:15] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:09:17] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:09:21] Sarah Jack: Please join us next week.
    [01:09:23] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:09:26] Sarah Jack: Visit us this week at thoushaltnotsuffer.Com.
    [01:09:29] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
    [01:09:32] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to End Witch Hunts.
    [01:09:35] Josh Hutchinson: Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:09:38] Sarah Jack: Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
    [01:09:43] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
  • Ending Sorcery Accusation-Related Violence with Miranda Forsyth

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    This episode will lightly introduce you to Melanesia sorcery accusation violence through an eye opening and informative conversation with professor and advocate Miranda Forsyth, professor in the School of Regulation and Global Governance (RegNet) in the College of Asia and Pacific at ANU. She is a Director of the Working Committee for The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. Miranda’s geographical focus has been primarily in the Pacific Islands region, particularly Vanuatu and Papua New Guinea. Her current research projects include focusing on a multi-year project on overcoming sorcery accusation related violence in Papua New Guinea. This is Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcasts first look at the Pacific Island region witch hunt. We ask: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches? 

    Links

    Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

    Sorcery National Action Plan

    The International Network

    Fighting the Wildfire of SARV

    Australian National University Wildfire StoryMap Announcement 

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Discord

    Buzzsprout

    Mailchimp

    Donate

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we're speaking with Miranda Forsyth, a director of The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices, about her network's activities, and the crisis of sorcery accusation-related violence in Papua New Guinea.
    [00:00:44] Sarah Jack: This conversation will stretch your mind. 
    [00:00:48] Josh Hutchinson: We will be learning about the causes of sorcery accusation-related violence and what's contributing to an uptick in those harmful practices and learn how sorcery accusation-related violence is like a wildfire.
     You're used to hearing us talk about witch hunts. Today we're talking about sorcery accusation related violence, SARV.
    [00:01:18] Sarah Jack: I like this terminology because the action part of that phrase, accusation-related violence, really puts the emphasis on the accuser and the violence.
    [00:01:31] Josh Hutchinson: Yes. It's not the alleged sorcery that's really at issue here. It's the accusations and the results of those accusations. And once you're accused of sorcery or witchcraft, we see this all over the world, negative consequences follow. Even if you are not violently attacked, your reputation is ruined, and you often have to leave your community and seek shelter elsewhere.
    We learn about different solutions. The holistic approach is needed.
    [00:02:20] Sarah Jack: Just like we don't find one single reason that an accusation happens, it's not a single solution that's gonna solve the violence.
    [00:02:36] Josh Hutchinson: We all need to take action to stop violence, and every sector in government and civil society needs to respond to this to be a part of the solution. Everyone has to work together, and each person and each government agency and NGO has their own responsibilities, pieces that they need to be working on. And so we'll learn what all those components are to a holistic solution. Learn about how the healthcare sector needs to be involved, the law enforcement and judicial sector, the civil society, private organizations and individuals and community leaders, religious leaders, all need to be involved to complete a solution.
    [00:03:47] Sarah Jack: Did you hear that list? There's a good chance you fall onto one of those categories, and if you don't, someone in your household does, or your neighbor or your friend.  I hope this episode causes you to think about how your position and your profession or community gives you influence to do something about this problem or urges you to reach out to your friend or family member who could have influence to benefit the efforts against this violence.
    [00:04:27] Josh Hutchinson: I do wanna just mention the National Action Plan, the Papua New Guinea Sorcery and Witchcraft Accusation-Related Violence National Action Plan. That holistic approach is being employed to solve the major problem and that gathers people from many sectors and brings them all together. 
    [00:05:00] Sarah Jack: It's a well-informed plan.
    [00:05:03] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, it's well-informed. There are many, many people working to implement it, and knowing that there are all these advocates and people willing to risk their own lives to save people from Sorcery Accusation-Related Violence, the National Action Plan, and other action plans being developed elsewhere. Between those plans and just the number of people wanting to advocate right now, I'm very optimistic that this situation is going to improve.
    [00:05:49] Sarah Jack: Yes. When you listen to Miranda today, you're hearing research, you're hearing the outcomes of well-informed tactics or strategies.
    [00:06:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, many of these community-level interventions, in particular, are having real impacts in their locations. And, as more resources become available to the advocates, more of that work will be able to be done and more lives will be saved.
    [00:06:29] Sarah Jack: Enjoy this enriching talk with Miranda Forsyth, a professor in the school of Regulation and Global Governance in the College of Asia and Pacific at Australia National University and director on the working committee of The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. 
    [00:06:46] Josh Hutchinson: Can you explain for us what The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices is?
    [00:06:56] Miranda Forsyth: So that's a new NGO that I and some colleagues formed last year. And really it was a way of bringing together individuals across the world who are interested in trying to combat the problem, the harms that come from accusations of witchcraft and associated harmful practices. And we really formed it in order to take over from the Witchcraft and Human Rights Information Network that was set up quite some years ago, and that was run by Gary Foxcroft. He decided that he wanted to step away and do some other things, and we were conscious that that had been providing quite an important space, particularly for the advocacy around work at the United Nations.
    And so we didn't want that to disappear. So we thought, okay then, let's create this new network really in order to continue the work that Gary and WHRIN had been doing. The people who formed it, we really came together in 2017, when the Special Expert for people Living with Albinism convened a meeting in Geneva to really address for the first time the issue of accusations of witchcraft and associated harmful practices.
    And I'm using that language, because it is a very difficult, the terminology is a really difficult part of this whole issue, as I'm sure you guys are very, very aware, and there was a lot of discussion about what language we should be using, what terms are appropriate, witchcraft or sorcery, how do we bring together the different agendas?
    So for example, of particular interest for the Special Expert of People Living with Albinism are what were called muti killings or ritual attacks on people with albinism. Often that was done not as part of an accusation of witchcraft, but because of a belief that their body parts could be used either to bring good fortune or to heal some kind of a sickness.
    And so they would be mutilated in all sorts of really horrible ways. And so there was a desire to bring these various different agendas together, which all coalesce around harm that comes from beliefs in the supernatural. So that happened in 2017, that very important meeting, which then led the sort of a core group of people to work to develop a concept note and some data intended to really support a push for a special resolution on the issue of harmful practices related to accusations of witchcraft and ritual attack. And that happened in 2021. And then as there was a follow-up expert report that was done following another meeting in 2022. 
    So the group of people who were working in that space really decided it's fantastic that there have been all of these announcements that have come out at the UN level, but there probably needs to be a lot of advocacy, a lot of networking around those different, quite high-level agreements, in order to really make change on the ground. And so our network is intended to connect people, to share initiatives, to share information, and to try to get knowledge about that special resolution out into the broader public and down to the grassroots NGOs that we hope can, can really use it.
    [00:10:37] Sarah Jack: Are there any other activities of the network that you wanna speak about?
    [00:10:42] Miranda Forsyth: So we've created a website, and the website is really intended to put in one place a lot of the information about these issues. So we've got a whole lot of videos from different parts of the world. Because I work in Melanesia, then I have to say that a lot of the content is from Papua New Guinea, but we've tried really hard to, to bring what we found in other places, as well, but to all of your listeners, if you've got other information that you would like to share with us on the website, we'd be really happy to have that.
    We're also trying to, to put out regular newsletters to let people know about what's been happening in that space, to encourage people to share their stories about what has been happening for them as well as a way, again, of raising advocacy, but also just making people realize that they're not alone.
    Cuz often being accused can be a very, very isolating and terrifying experience. And so we're hoping that by showing that this is a phenomenon that exists across the world, it impacts on wealthy men as well as poor, old women and beautiful, young women. Everybody can be a victim of this. And so we're, we're trying to create that sense of a community. Some of our members have also been really successful in getting grants. And Charlotte Baker, who's at the university, a professor at the University of Lancaster she got a grant that is going to be doing a whole range of really exciting things, but one part of it is an online advocacy program that's going to get out, online, a whole lot of materials about explaining the resolution, what, what it does and also what it doesn't do, cuz there's a lot of misunderstandings, as well, about what that resolution does. 
    So we wanna make it really clear to people this doesn't impact on your right to believe whatever you want. It doesn't impact on people's right to their culture. It doesn't impact on the really important work that's done by traditional healers, all of those things. No, it's about harmful practices, and that is the intent of that online information program, which we hope will be done in a really engaging way.
    So we've also got a photography competition that's running at the moment and that's been to encourage people to send in photos that we can use in that online advocacy program to really highlight the issue in quite, hopefully, expressive and innovative ways.
    [00:13:22] Josh Hutchinson: How did you come to be involved in this area?
    [00:13:25] Miranda Forsyth: So I was a, a volunteer prosecutor in Vanuatu, which is a small country in the South Pacific. And one of the early cases that I came across was a case where somebody had been found guilty of witchcraft, because witchcraft is still an offense in the Vanuatu penal code, or it was back then, and I was in the prosecution office, and I saw that the case had resulted in a conviction, but then it was a conviction for both witchcraft, but also murder and rape. And then the sentence was very lenient. And we decided we needed to appeal that on the basis that the sentence was manifestly inadequate. But then that also gave rise to the public defender very appropriately appealing it on the basis that the witchcraft conviction was was unsound.
    And so the case then went to the Court of Appeal, and the Court of Appeal held that, in fact, it was an unsound conviction. And said that, in the court at the moment, there is no way that you can prove witchcraft. And so really they not only struck out that conviction, but they made it pretty clear that it will be very, very hard to bring such a, a case in future because there, how do you prove that in a court of law? So that was a really important precedent, but it then opened my eyes to the fact that, oh, there is a belief in witchcraft, or nakaemas it's called in Vanuatu, or sometimes they refer to it as poisoning.
    And that belief structures people's lives in really significant ways. So it impacts on where people go, on the kinds of work that people will do, in the ways that they engage in the economy, the fear of people being jealous of them, or the fear that if somebody has done something wrong, then it's because of, of the use of sorcery or witchcraft is, is very real. And, and I thought this actually impacts then on the way, or this should impact on the way in which the Australian government does development, for example. Because if you don't understand that, and then you just do development programs without taking those cultural beliefs into account, then you're gonna run into problems.
    And so I tried to raise some awareness of that. But I found that there wasn't really much of an appetite for listening to, to what I was trying to say. And so then when I returned to Australia some years later, I was, I'd always been interested then in, in this idea of, of witchcraft and sorcery being an important feature of Melanesian society that really wasn't taken into account by Australian law and development or just generally development practitioners.
    And so I was talking with a friend of mine back in Australia who works with a lot of people in Papua New Guinea. And he started telling me about the problem of witchcraft accusations in Papua New Guinea and how, whereas in Vanuatu you'll have a murder that arises from an accusation of, of witchcraft maybe once a year, but in Papua New Guinea, he told me, no, no, no, this is happening on a really, really regular basis. 
    And so together we thought, "let's hold a conference in Australia to try to draw attention to the issue." And our target audience really was the Australian government. Just to just say we need to put this as an issue on the radar. It's not a sort of a funny, strange thing. It's a really significant human rights issue that does need to be addressed. And. It's not a matter of just saying, "oh people will be educated, and the world will change, and this will go away," because it just doesn't look like that's happening.
    And at the time that we decided to hold that conference, there was a very, very public burning of a woman in Papua New Guinea, Mrs. Leniata Kepari. That went viral. The images of her being burnt went viral across the world, so there was a lot of attention on the issue. And then some activists in Papua New Guinea got in touch with us and said, "oh, we think that this also needs a conference in Papua New Guinea." And so we said, "great, let's team up and, and hold another conference in Papua New Guinea." And so that was my first introduction to the issue in PNG and that, we held a conference in Goroka in 2013, and that brought together various different groups who were working on the issue. 
    But at that time we didn't have any shared terminology about it. We still had the, the problem, but often people would end up talking at cross purposes. Some people would be talking about the problem of sorcery. Some people would be talking about the problem of the violence that comes from sorcery accusations. So it was a constant miscommunication that was occurring, but it was clear that there were enough people who were realizing this is a problem. We don't know the scope of it, but we are seeing it is resulting in this absolute misery for women, for men, for families being displaced, and something needed to be done. So I then became involved with the core leaders of that conference, and that journey has continued ever since, really.
    [00:19:05] Sarah Jack: You spoke a little bit about Melanesia and what a important place that has in your work. Can you tell us what is currently going on in Melanesia with sorcery violence?
    [00:19:17] Miranda Forsyth: Melanesia is made up of a number of different countries. I work primarily in Papua New Guinea, which is where the vast majority of really extreme violence related to sorcery accusations occurs. You do have, as I mentioned, these cases in Vanuatu and in Solomon Islands, to an extent, but it's so much less significant than it is in Papua New Guinea.
    In Papua New Guinea, we don't actually know what the population is. It's between 9 and 17 million. It is expanding quite rapidly, there's a big youth bubble, and it is one of those countries that has got the resource curse that some people call it. So there are quite a lot of big mining, natural gas projects, but in general the levels of wealth of the population have certainly not increased as you would've hoped, given the immense natural resources of the country. 
    There is a, what some have called an epidemic of sorcery accusation-related violence in Papua New Guinea. We, after a number of years, managed to to come to an agreement on that terminology, sorcery accusation-related violence, because it really identifies the fact that it is the accusation of sorcery that is the real issue that we are targeting. And we call it SARV for short. 
    And it became clear that it is an issue. It's very hidden, though, as I'm sure again, many would've told you on this on this program, and as you would know, a lot of these cases are just not reported. They're not reported to the police. When people go to hospital, they don't say that they're had these injuries because of an accusation of sorcery because that puts them at, at more harm of being reaccused, unfortunately. We've also heard of cases where, patients are in hospital seeking care and then groups will come in and take them out and re-torture them.
    We became aware that this is a massive problem, but we don't know the scale of it. So the only data sources that we have are the newspapers and the national courts database that reports the few cases that are actually prosecuted. In order to try to understand what is the scope of these and who are the people who are being accused and what circumstances are they accused in and who are the perpetrators and what kinds of harms do people face and who tries to stop them and what kind of prevention activities occur and who looks after the victims afterwards and how are they reintegrated into their communities? Like all of those questions we just didn't know the answers to. And so I've been leading a research project that's been trying to find the answers to those questions for the past 10 years or so.
    And we, we still can't exactly say how many cases there are, but we did quite a detailed case collection in four provinces over four years, and we documented 1,500 or so cases of accusation and about a third of those led to physical violence. But of course, the ones that even didn't lead to physical violence, you still have stigmatization, which has an incredible psychological toll on people. People talk about the fact that they've got this brand on their forehead that they can just never, ever wash off or get rid of. Anytime something goes wrong in the community, then they are afraid that they are going to be reaccused.
    [00:23:14] Josh Hutchinson: And what causes an accusation?
    [00:23:18] Miranda Forsyth: Okay. So I have come up with an explanatory metaphor to try to explain what happens because it's clear that there is no one factor, right? This is a really complex phenomenon. So we have to understand that there are many things that come together, in order for an accusation to occur and then to lead to violence.
    So I find it helpful to think of a wildfire and to think first of all of the idea that you need to have a conducive landscape, right? So when, for a wildfire, you need to have a dry landscape with lots of buildup of of fuel. But for a sorcery accusation, the kind of conducive landscape, there's a cultural and there's a socioeconomic dimension to it. From the cultural dimension, you need to have a population in which there is a belief that if misfortune occurs, it can be the result of somebody using supernatural forces in a deliberate or a unconscious way. So that's the worldview, if you like, of an acceptance of a magical explanation for misfortune.
    But often that, that worldview will coexist with other worldviews. We call that worldview pluralism. So often, people will be open to that explanation, but they'll also be open to a more scientific explanation or else to a Christian explanation of that it is God, for example, who's responsible for whether people live or die. So long as there is a magical worldview, then that's part of the conducive landscape. 
    Then often you have situations where there is poverty, there is uncertainty for one reason or another. That might be because of increasing pressures on land caused by population growth or caused by drought, caused by earthquake. So those are some other features of that conducive landscape. 
    Also when you're thinking about the conducive landscape, you can think about things like ongoing land disputes. So the community is already somewhat tense, there's already antagonisms between different groups. 
    So the conducive landscape, then you often need to have a trigger event, and that trigger event we find is often a death or a sickness, particularly a death of a child or a sort of an unusual death. But a lot of people say there is no such thing as a normal death. Almost any death can potentially be seen as having been caused by sorcery. So that trigger event then gives rise to suspicions, to gossip.
    These are often aired at what are called haus krai or funerals that can take place over many days. And and so there's a lot of people together, gossiping and there's concerns raised about, okay, well how did this happen? And then often you have people who will then come in and who will crystallize those sort of suspicions by naming and accusing somebody in a particular way. And those people in Papua New Guinea are often called a glassman, or a glassmeri, like a diviner kind of a person. Although can be Christian prayer warriors, as well, who will often identify individuals, in order to pray over them. So there's a slightly different motivation between the glassmeri, glassman and the prayer warrior. The glassman and glassmeri are often paid for their services, and this falls into that category that some of my colleagues call a spiritual entrepreneur, who really benefits from these things, seen to have the power to make these kinds of identifications. So then that crystallization of the belief, also it can be used by people who have got something to benefit from the person being accused.
    So often you hear people talking about the fact that, oh, accusations are just motivated by economic reasons. People want somebody's land, and so therefore they'll make an accusation of sorcery, it's not a real belief in sorcery. I think that that's too simplistic. I think that when there is that belief in play, then it's there, it plays a role. But for sure, people do deliberately make accusations in ways that benefit them. But they might also think, "we've had this land dispute, so that is the most likely person to have caused that particular death, as well." it's chicken and egg to an extent. 
    But we have certainly documented many, many cases where, for example, a brother will accuse his brother's wife of sorcery, of having killed him in order to then obtain his land. And that kind of person then will also be present in that discussion about, okay then, so someone's accused, what are we gonna do? And then leading towards the decision to engage in violence. And of course this isn't always just, it's not a, a something that is discussed in a rational way a lot of the time as well. There's, it's a very emotional process, but often it can take a while to happen. Sometimes it happens very, very quickly, and it's just a sort of a really trigger combustion event.
    But sometimes it can build, there can be suspicions for a little bit of time before the violence erupts. And then once the violence erupts, then it really becomes a mob, a collective, violent event. And we've documented in a lot of the cases, there's, 20, 30, 40 people who are involved in the particular case.
    That's one pattern that we see. And the people who are doing the accusing, like in many other parts of the world, often have some kind of a relationship with the person who's being accused. So often it's a blood connection, and often there is already some sort of an ongoing tension. It might be over land, it might be because of a case of polygamy, or it might be a jealousy of one sort or another. 
    The victims that we've found can be both, as I've said, men and women. It very much depends on the particular part of Papua New Guinea that we're talking about. In some places it's almost entirely women, in some places it's almost entirely men, and in other places it'll generally be families that are accused, so you have both. When we've done our newspaper analysis, then we've found that it's about 50/50 overall men and women. But that sort of general explanation doesn't take into account those regional differences, which really show that it is a highly gendered phenomenon.
    It seems to be connected, like who is being accused is very much connected with the kind of narrative over sorcery and witchcraft that exists. In some places up in the highland, there are, there's reference to sanguma, who are generally seen as women who eat people's hearts. Whereas in Bougainville there's generally reference to poison man who will take leavings of peoples, so their fingernails and their hair clippings and they will do magic on those and use that to poison people.
    So these very distinct cultural narratives seem to then feed into the gender of the person that said, we are noticing that there's a spread of these narratives, and there's a consequent changing of the genders of people being accused. So in some places where there were only men being accused, now there are women and vice versa. We're also noticing that children are starting to be accused, which is a really disturbing trend, as well. 
    The wildfire trajectory that I identified, that has come through from the surveys that we've done and from a lot of the newspaper reports. But interestingly, when we look at the cases that are reported in the national courts, then they generally involve only a few perpetrators. And they generally involve male victims. it's really quite interesting the difference in the cases that get to court, whether or not that's because only a few individuals are actually caught, I'm not sure. There was one case in Papua New Guinea where 97 perpetrators were caught, charged, and imprisoned, which was a really amazing job by the police and by the courts. Of course, that then creates a whole lot of pressures on the state criminal justice system. But in general it's only a few people who are involved in the attack.
    [00:32:45] Sarah Jack: Is there like an element where it's like with Christianity, those who fear witches in Christianity would attach it to covenanting with the devil?
    [00:32:56] Miranda Forsyth: The role of Pentecostal Christianity in Papua New Guinea in this space is really interesting and something that quite a lot of my colleagues have written about, me less. As I mentioned, the prayer warriors, there's often an emphasis on exorcism of evil spirits and so forth. So certainly those beliefs get merged together with the beliefs in witchcraft and sorcery.
    [00:33:26] Sarah Jack: Yeah. It's Josh, which of the films were we watching yesterday on YouTube? 
    [00:33:33] Josh Hutchinson: Everybody's Business.
    [00:33:34] Sarah Jack: Yeah, 
    [00:33:35] Miranda Forsyth: Oh, yeah. 
    [00:33:36] Sarah Jack: And I noticed, I was very intrigued by the fear of a Dracula and how some of the interviewed persons said, "we don't really know who he is or what he is or what she is," but it is a feared thing. That's very interesting that something that they don't really understand has such a grip.
    [00:33:58] Miranda Forsyth: The thing that we know about witchcraft beliefs or witchcraft doubts, I think that there's a really interesting movement to change that around and to show how really what witchcraft is about is more doubting, it's uncertainty. We don't exactly know what's going on, what's causing it, and so that makes it such a flexible, malevolent thing that can metamorphosize and become very, very modern. It can take concepts like Dracula and somehow permeate through them and make them into something that is scary, but unknown and unknowable. And that increases its power. We also hear things about mobile phones being used for sorcery and parliaments where witches go and sit and discuss and plot.
    So there's lots and lots of these tropes of modernity, if you like, that are very much brought into the discourse around witchcraft and sorcery in Papua New Guinea. So the idea about Dracula, I think that was a few years ago. I don't know if that's still the case now, but these different ideas come and go and they're all part of that same generalized fear of the supernatural.
    [00:35:14] Josh Hutchinson: Really hearing a lot of similarities between what we've heard about other parts of the world from Dr. Leo Igwe, for example, has told us about Africa using the witch planes now. So they're integrating modern technologies into belief and just the causes and even similarities to early modern European witch hunts. When you talk about all the factors that have to be in play, that's exactly what we saw with something like Salem. And a lot of the reasons, underlying reasons behind the accusations were the same. I'm wondering if you could if you're seeing the same kinds of similarities or if there's more, is it, are there more differences than that I'm not picking up on.
    [00:36:09] Miranda Forsyth: No, I see lots of similarities as well. Really interestingly, I was reading some work by Will Pooley. Has been looking at the witchcraft accusations in France, I think up until 1940. Starting from early modern periods up until quite recently, and I just kept on circling everything and saying, yes, this really resonates, this really resonates, the way in which the doubts and the fears change, the way in which the courts are uncertain. The justice system has had to shift in terms of how to address the problem, but it still creates problems and uncertainty. In Papua New Guinea, they repealed the Sorcery Act 1971 in 2013, but still people will talk about the Sorcery Repeal Act, as if that's a new act that's intended to repeal sorcery.
    And it's, there's just been a tremendous amount of confusion about it. People feeling if the government isn't going to be protecting us against this, then who will? And therefore that then, in a way, gives legitimacy to to vigilantism. And I think that those were also some of the real dilemmas that apparently, according to the historical record, that judges and other criminal justice figures were having to deal with back in those days, as well. Because what do police do if somebody comes to them and says, I'm really concerned that this person caused that particular death and is going to keep on causing deaths in my community, police officer, we need help. That's a very difficult position for a police officer to be in. They've got the law, which says, there is no such crime as sorcery. And yet they know that if they don't do something, then it's likely that people will just take the law into their own hands. These dilemmas are very, very real and I think that they were very real back in the day, as well.
    So I was also reading that people were using. Again, back in France, people were using the law of defamation or slander as a way of trying to clear their names. And that's something that's been happening in Papua New Guinea, as well. Interestingly, I think a slightly more than it was in the past, I've been, again, looking through the court database, and there seem to be an increasing number of successful cases where people are able to go to the court and the court will make a statement.
    But still you ask the question, does that always put those doubts to rest? Does it make the person entirely safe? Maybe not. But if the consequence of actually articulating those suspicions are that you have to pay a fine, then it might stop people from publicly articulating them. And so that then means that the risk of that kind of mob violence is lessened.
    [00:39:14] Sarah Jack: One of the things that I'm thinking about that you know are a pattern over the ages is this attributing sorcery witchcraft to deaths that, in the 17th century in the American colonies, many of the women who were accused, even hanged, they were connected to a death somehow, and listening to Everybody's Business, these deaths that are happening are part of their regular, experience that there's deaths always coming for unfortunate reasons to the circumstances of the society.
    Death is so permanent. It's so devastating to these families, to the communities. It's a severe, severe misfortune, and it's coming to terms with that. This is just the innocent ending of a life. How do you overcome that in a community?
    [00:40:13] Miranda Forsyth: I think that's a really important point, Sarah. I think that it goes to the trauma that people often feel that when they're grieving and there aren't trauma counselors in Papua New Guinea. There isn't a lot of support for people who have children, for example, who die.
    And one way then of somehow getting rid of those terrible feelings of despair and hurt is to make this accusation. It seems to be a way, of releasing that torture that they're going through in a way that they can't in any other way. So I think that that is a really important insight.
    So I've spoken a lot about the causes and the drivers and the sort of the momentum that pushes these accusations and this violence to occur, but I haven't yet spoken about any of the interventions, which I think is an also a really important part of the story. The thing that really drives me, I think to working in Papua New Guinea on this topic, which is such a a horrific topic in many ways, is the extraordinary.
    Commitment of so many individuals across the country to try to do something about the issue, to step in to do prevention campaigns, to rescue people who have been accused, and then to try to work with victims and to rehabilitate them. So one of the, in terms of I suppose early interventions, we found what seems to be quite successful is being able to work with, so whoever the sort of the activist is being able to work with the family, the direct family, of the dead person.
    So say for example, you've got a situation where there's been a death in the family Then going to the family members and saying to them, it might be that there will be an accusation of sorcery as a result of this death. And it's really important that you guys stand up and say, we're not going to be making accusations of sorcery, so the activist needs to work with those family members, cuz those family members will have the moral authority to say no in a way that nobody else has that authority.
    And so if they are able to be convinced that, yeah, that's not a path that we want to go down, then that can stop that accusation from happening right at the outset. So that means that, for example, working with health workers is really, really important, because the way that they communicate the information about sickness and death can really either set the whole thing on a path where it's likely that there will be violence, or it can really try to mitigate the risk of violence. They're a really important sector that probably haven't been sufficiently brought into the work of advocacy, as yet, certainly not in Papua New Guinea, although it has that has started. So there was one workshop done with health workers and it was a really eyeopening experience. So we're hoping that that will be continued. So that's one kind of strategy that's being used. 
    Also the village court magistrates, so village courts are the lowest level of the formal justice system in Papua New Guinea, and they also have a lot of moral authority in the community, and they're able to do things such as issue preventative orders to say, okay, people are not allowed to to start to take the law into their own hands. That can also work in some context. 
    Some communities have got together and have said, this is such a problem for us, that we're creating our own community bylaws. And so we're saying that there will not be any accusations of witchcraft in our community. And if there are, then people have to pay a certain fine. So they might also try to say we're not gonna do tribal fighting, and there's not gonna be gambling, and there's not gonna be drinking after 10 o'clock at night, and these kind of rules that work for the community. But often then they'll include sorcery accusations as part of those.
    Then we also find that it's a question of trying many different messages and having many different voices speaking those messages generally, in order for the the violence to stop. But once things get to a certain point, then there's very little that that can be done to stop it at that point. That's when it's a matter of going in and trying to rescue, and that's where we find the police working with civil society organizations is of critical importance. The police officers are unable to do that alone, but working with that local knowledge means that even though it involves taking some risks, they are, and they have been able to successfully rescue a lot of people. it's unfortunate that it does require people often putting their lives at risk. And we've just seen some extraordinary acts of bravery, both by activists and by police officers on a regular basis. 
    So the police are often chastised for not doing enough in Papua New Guinea in relation to this issue. And there's no doubt that there are a lot of failings and there's a lot of challenges. But. I think it's also really important to identify that there are individual police officers who, on a regular basis, go way beyond the call of duty, in order to rescue people in the throes of these kind of violent attacks.
    And they use all kinds of strategies in order to do then also a lot of the survivors themselves, when we've talked about, what, what happened, how did you get away? They've told us quite extraordinary stories, too, of their real ingenuity and creativity in somehow smuggling mobile phones in and contacting people and the kinds of stories that they've told in order to get people to release them. It's a testimony to the bravery, again, of those men and women, and some of them as well, who talk about the fact that they're being tortured, and they're asked to name others, and they refuse. And again, I just cannot imagine what level of bravery that requires. For a lot of them, their Christian faith is very important. And they talk about that as being something that, that somehow sustains them through it.
    And then afterwards, for the survivors, this is a very, very difficult situation. Because as I said, survivors are often so vulnerable, so much at risk of reaccusation. And how do you go back into a community where people have been involved in causing that kind of extreme pain on you? This is for those who do survive. 
    So we've found that some some programs will offer safe houses for survivors to go to with their families. But that's a kind of a short term solution, and it's it's a bit unsatisfactory. It's absolutely necessary, but it's only one part of the solution.
    Then other NGOs have developed programs really to give a sort of a startup pack again for somebody, who then they will move with their family into the capital city, for example, , or down to another place, which, which can work. But sometimes as well, there is a precarity because stories do follow people and it's hard to recreate a whole new identity.
     That issue of reintegration is a real problem. We've found successful cases of reintegration occur when there's been quite a lot of work done with the community and with the people who have done the accusation and the perpetrators as well. And the people who accuse and the people who are the perpetrators are not always the same. But when there is what appears to be a genuine expression of remorse, when there is a payment that's been made in a customary way, it's called a compensation payment in Papua New Guinea, and that's a way that a lot of disputes are resolved, so when that customary payment has been made, when the survivor is somewhat emotionally ready to return, and there is support from the pastors, the village court magistrates, and the police, like everybody together saying, okay, "this reintegration is happening, this person is here," and the police say, "we're watching, we've got our eyes on this person, and we are gonna be coming back, and we're gonna be checking that she or he or that family is okay." In those circumstances, we've found that reintegration can be successful.
    I've just got a colleague who is visiting here from Hela Province in Papua New Guinea, and he has just started identifying the major problem of SARV in his province. His province is known primarily for tribal fighting. But he says actually SARV is a major problem there as well. And And he was struggling with the thought of what do I do for these for these victims?
    Some are mothers who have just given birth like the day before who have to flee into the bushes. And he was sinking, okay, I want to build a safe house, but I'm gonna build a safe house in the epicenter of the SARV accusations. I'm going to build a safe house as a challenge to the community to say it's not the right thing to do. And he's got a group of young men who have decided that they are going to defend that safe house. Whoever the victims are who come, they're going to defend them. And they're building around that safe house a garden, a huge garden that will support the safe house, that will give a mean of in means of income for the people who live there, so that it will be a sustainable safe house. They're also building a library, so hopefully they can do education of the community. And I think they're building a soccer field as well, so that, again, there can be social events that can occur. And we've seen that quite often, that communities, when they're starting an initiative to try to counter a social problem like SARV, then they'll often think about what is the economic dimension to this? What is the social dimension to this? 
    [00:51:20] Sarah Jack: It's so hopeful, because of all the elements that they're incorporating in for protecting the accused and the rehabilitation. I couldn't help but think about the Ghana witch camps while you were talking about refugees of, short term protection, but then integration like all of those pieces are real issues. And we see that the long-term refugee camps aren't offering the survivors a way to get back into society and to find purpose and strength and their dignity. So I'm really excited to hear this effort in this community. I think it sounds very promising and it's giving people a reason to band together for the good.
     Memorialization is like a really important effort in some parts of the country right now, some parts of the world right now, where most witch hunting and accused are a part of the historic past and remembrance, tributes, having a way to pay tribute to ancestors, if, that kind of thing is really big part of what's happening in the United States and Connecticut and in Scotland they're trying. How does memorialization work in a situation where there is so much current accusation and violence? Is there a purpose for it? Is there a way that it could be beneficial?
    [00:52:56] Miranda Forsyth: Yeah, that's a really interesting question and as soon as you were saying that, what sprung to mind for me was the efforts by an activist Ruth Kissam, who heard about, I mentioned that case of Leniata Kepari. She's a woman from Enga, and she found that Leniata Kepari's remains had been in the morgue in the hospital for a year, and she just decided, this isn't right. I'm not going to let this happen, and so she went and she got the remains, and she buried her, and she made a sign and a plaque. And that was a really important moment for the movement. It really was somebody stepping up and saying, "this woman has got a right to be buried, and we should all like grieve for her and we should all feel the sorrow for what happened to her."
    And I think that, although that's just been the only one that I know of, it was very powerful, and Ruth has gone on to be an extraordinary activist for this cause. And so I think there probably is a role for that a little bit more. There's been a regular movement as well called the Haus Krai Movement, which is intended to raise awareness, not just about SARV, but also about gender-based violence.
    And so that's another way in which that happens on a regular basis, but probably there needs to be more of that kind of memorialization that occurs, because everybody, it seems, knows somebody who has lost somebody because of SARV. It is such a pervasive issue, unfortunately, in Papua New Guinea.
    I haven't spoken about the Papua New Guinea national Action Plan. So the National Action Plan was developed in 2015, and that was really intended to take a holistic approach to say, you can't just think about this issue as a law and order issue. It's not, although it is, there, there's all of these different things. You need to have the education part, you need to have the health sector part, you need to have the care and counseling part, you need to have the research part. And so it was a really exciting plan that was promoted. It's been driven by the Department of Justice and Attorney General, by the leadership of some really fantastic women for a long time now. Getting on for a decade of work on that.
    And so the the plan, of course, like many plans in developing countries, has really suffered from a lack of funding. But what has kept it going and what has kept SARV on the agenda, I think has been the sort of this core committee that met for many years. It fell down a little bit during Covid, but it's being resurrected now. That just kept on saying, this is an issue. Hey, is there any funding available for doing any programs under the plan, even though the plan was not being funded by the government, although there more recently, it just has started to be funded to an extent, which is fantastic. There were these individuals motivated, looking for ways that they could access fund to do different activities underneath the plan.
    And for example the Australian government has been funding a series of trainings on how to deal with SARV for the police and for the village court magistrates. My colleague, William Kipongi, in Papua New Guinea just recently attended one of those trainings and presented our research findings. There were 30 senior police officers who were there for a week working through these issues, understanding the way in which the law works. There was a recent amendment to the law last year that specifically targets glassman and glassmeri and also makes accusations of witchcraft or sorcery a criminal offense.
    And so talking them through how to go about charging people and the prosecution process, these are really important developments that have occurred. And the aim of that core committee and of the plan itself is to ensure that this is a holistic response, but also that everybody who is working on the issue in Papua New Guinea is on the same page.
    If everybody does these isolated little initiatives, that's not actually going to lead to transformative change. But if they can be joined together, can be working with each other, sharing insights, spreading the same message, then we know that that is how change occurs. And so I think that that central coordinating role is a really important one.
    The challenge now is to make sure that it develops roots that go really down to the very, very local levels, and that part is probably still missing and is the next stage of development, I really hope.
    [00:58:14] Josh Hutchinson: I know that Papua Gua is one of the most, if not the most culturally and linguistically diverse nations in the world. And how does that present challenges? Are people able to work through those issues generally?
    [00:58:33] Miranda Forsyth: Yeah. I believe it is the most culturally and linguistically diverse country. There's over 800 different languages. It's just extraordinary. And that is, I think, also what characterizes the Papua New Guinean people of their enormous creativity and inventive spirit and the way in which they are able to hold multiple different perspectives in their heads at one time.
    I'm always inspired to think in much more flexible ways. Although of course I end up returning to my sort of Western lawyer trained sort of Cartesian mindset, but then I'm challenged to get out of that and to try to see things from different perspectives. And I think that it is that ability to see things from different perspectives that mean that we haven't found that any workshops, for example, it's been a problem that people have got these different cultural beliefs.
    Interestingly, often people will find the cultural beliefs, the sort of the witchcraft, the sorcery cultural beliefs from other places to be quite strange. And they'll say, oh, I believe that, but then it doesn't, it doesn't mean that they don't hold their own beliefs, which the others think are just really strange any less strongly. I haven't done enough research into finding out, like I should do some interviews to find out, oh, did learning that different people have got these different beliefs, does that change how you feel about these things? I imagine they, that it wouldn't, I think we all know that people believe different things, but as I've said, witchcraft doesn't all just happen in the brain.
    There's an emotional dimension to it as well that I think we really need to pay cognizance to.
    [01:00:17] Josh Hutchinson: The fear is very real and how deeply it affects you. It's such a, a foundational belief, how you view the world.
    [01:00:28] Miranda Forsyth: It structures people's lives in very profound ways.
    [01:00:31] Sarah Jack: How can we ask our listeners to help? How can we ask, the population of the globe to get involved personally, and I was thinking today while you were talking, there are folks who have very specific skills and influence and pull, maybe in the healthcare industry, how can those people who wanna be able to use that influence support these efforts?
    [01:00:59] Miranda Forsyth: I suppose get in touch with me, and I can contact them with people who are working in that space. There is a group of scholars who are working with colleagues in Papua New Guinea to try to develop a program that would train those frontline healthcare workers in order to be able to better address concerns about sorcery and better communicate causes of death and sickness in ways that are going to alleviate the problem of sorcery accusations.
    So that's, a program that I really hope does get funding. I know that they're putting in an application for that now, but I think that support in that way, developing materials, that can be used in that kind of training program is important. But often what we find again, and again and again, is that outside initiatives are not gonna be very effective. It needs to be something that is generated by those who are on the ground, who understand, who have that absolute local knowledge and legitimacy. But what outsiders can do is to support those people who are on the ground. So I call this inside-outside networked change. You've got those insiders who are then connected with outsiders, who then can network in ways that can lead to this more transformative change.
    And we're starting to see that happening in Papua New Guinea, a lot of NGOs for example, and a lot of the churches, as well, who are doing very good things are connected then with outsiders and able to provide emotional, support for the case of the church people, spiritual support, and also resources, in order to keep that work going. So I think that finding out what are those local initiatives where are they working, how do they need help, having that conversation, listening, not assuming that outsiders have got the answers, as we unfortunately have a strong history of doing, but really listening. What help do you need? Then that is the way to support what's going on, I think in Papua New Guinea.
    I should also say that as part of the international network, one of the things that we're planning to do is to hold a conference next year in Lancaster again. So there was one in 2019, and again professor Charlotte Baker is the one, together with Dr. Sam Spence, who is leading this. And hopefully that will also raise a whole lot more awareness. And historically we haven't had much engagement from the US in these issues. And it would be fantastic to have more involvement, because I think that there's a lot that each can learn about, what's happening today, what's happened in the past but also I read a case in the US where there was a pastor who accused members of his congregation of being witches. It doesn't seem to me that it is such , a farfetched thing to think that it does occur, although in a very, very hidden way, in the United States, even today. 
    In the UK, they've started paying attention to the issue of what they call child abuse linked to spiritual possession. And they now are documenting like, I think over a thousand cases a year of that kind of abuse of children, because you know of the belief in witchcraft. And these are contemporary issues that are in the center of the western world, as well as in places such as Papua New Guinea.
    So all of us coming together and seeing it as a problem really that that comes from the unfortunate human tendency to blame others to seek to scapegoat when things go wrong, rather than to try to work as a community to, to address problems. Yeah, there, there's probably a lot of benefit in that.
    [01:05:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, we do have a lot of that in the U.S. What you talked about. There's a lot of belief. We spoke with Boris Gershman about his report on witchcraft belief in the world.
    [01:05:16] Miranda Forsyth: Such great work that he's done.
    [01:05:18] Josh Hutchinson: So brilliant. And but he estimated that or calculated that 16% of the US population believes in this harmful power of witchcraft. And so it's very real. We do hear cases from time to time that get into the media about someone accusing someone of witchcraft and unfortunately attacking them. And so it's not entirely foreign to the US. It's something that we have to deal with on our own, and hopefully raising more awareness of that can have some impact.
    And we're looking at ways that we can help with making the American public aware of what's going on internationally, because everybody that we meet is so surprised to hear what's occurring, even though we see it from time to time in our own country.
    [01:06:24] Miranda Forsyth: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing as well that I've found that again and again, people say, oh my goodness, it's the 21st century and this is happening. And I say it's the 21st century, that's why it's happening. Like these things are very much a result of pressures of modernity on communities and that this unfortunately is a symptom of those pressures. And, the trajectory of the world everywhere seems to be signifying that there is going to be more uncertainty, more precarity, more poverty. And so the likelihood of these kind of accusations is going to be intensified. And the thing with a sorcery accusation is that you take an already unfortunate situation and then you put a sorcery accusation in and it just makes it 10 times worse.
    Like for example, we think about refugee camps. Already these are places of extreme misery, and yet they're documenting, Accusations of sorcery happening within those camps. This is just a major, major problem. And again, it's one of those things that it is a little bit, as I said, like wildfire. It's contagious. It expands. And so that's why working on prevention is so absolutely critical. And there's not enough work on prevention that's occurring, because people will ignore it as a problem until it gets out of control and then the genie is out of the bottle and it's very difficult to do something about it.
    So I totally commend what you guys are doing in terms of raising awareness of the problem. I hope that more people do pay attention to it. We really hope that the That the resolution, the UN resolution, and the expert report, and their recommendations are really taken up by nation states across the world.
    It would be great if the US also put significant attention into that to see what could be done there. Papua New Guinea was listed as one of the five countries under the US Global Fragility Act. And that means that it is a target for support for the US government over the next 10 years. It's a really fantastic new way of thinking about doing development and doing conflict prevention in a number of countries across the world. And I really hope that ending SARV could be one of the contributions of the US through that global Fragility Act.
    [01:08:51] Josh Hutchinson: So I'm thinking one thing Americans can do is contact their elected officials in Washington and say, "hey, this is going on. You need to be aware of this, and you need to be doing something about it."
    [01:09:07] Miranda Forsyth: Yeah. And if they want like directions as to what needs to be done about it, that expert report that's come out has got a whole lot of really fantastic recommendations that can be followed. So we've put all of those things on the website. You could encourage your listeners to go and to have a look at our website.
    [01:09:25] Josh Hutchinson: That's an excellent point. And that website is so wonderful. It's full of those resources. You have, the Papua New Guinea National Action Plan, the Pan-African Parliament Guidelines, and those really also talk about the steps you outlined, the holistic approach and what needs to be done.
    [01:09:49] Sarah Jack: And now Mary Bingham is back for a Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:10:00] Mary Bingham: I spent a lot of time with my grandmother when I was young. She was the one who provided me with the gift of music and family research. I still have the cassette tapes of her telling me her childhood stories about her abusive stepfather, her passive mother, my wonderful grandfather, and so many other life stories which held my interest. Grammy was a great storyteller. 
    One other thing we did together from time to time was to use the Ouija board. Yes, we allegedly conjured up some of my grandfather's Irish ancestors to ask them from which county in Ireland they immigrated, but I digress. On another occasion, I was sitting on Grammy's couch with my foot on a nearby empty rocking chair. I started to rock the empty chair. You would've thought I committed the gravest sin known to humankind. Grammy turned to me with a very stern look on her face and a bit of fire in her deep set eyes, placed her index finger over her tightly pursed lips, all the while motioning me to stop rocking the empty chair with her other hand. I was too scared and too young to question her. Today, more than 40 years later, I know why, and it simply does not make sense. Grammy thought I was inviting evil spirits into her house. If she didn't want the evil spirits in her house, then why did she enjoy playing with the Ouija board periodically? Wouldn't using that contraption do the same thing? So here's a prime example as to why superstitions are certainly not logically based.
    Let's travel to Papua New Guinea for a moment. Michael Wesch, a resident of Papua New Guinea, six years ago told a story of a man named Codinine, a very active, healthy man living in a local village. Codinine suddenly became ill with a swollen stomach and thinning arms. Because the superstitions of witchcraft were very real to Codinine, he thought witches shot him with an invisible arrow in the stomach, then assaulted him at night and ate the flesh from his arms. Instead of seeing a healthcare professional, Codinine saught the treatment of a shaman. 
    The residents of this village in Papua New Guinea are interdependent community. The people rely on each other to survive, building strong communal relationships. The shaman told Codinine that someone in his community, who prepared a sweet potato as part of a communal meal, performed witchcraft on a small part of the potato before handing it over for consumption. According to the shaman, Codinine ate the bewitched part of the potato.
    Long story short, Codinine died from this illness. Someone could have been accused of performing witchcraft, but luckily Michael Wesch stepped in. Using what he calls a reasonable and empathic approach, Michael and his father agreed to compensate Codinine's family to restore the community. Lives were saved, though sadly, Codinine's was not. If Codinine had received scientific medical intervention, he may also still be alive today.
    Thank you.
     
    [01:13:40] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:13:42] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
     
    [01:13:52] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a Nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. The following quote is from the wildfire story map that Miranda mentioned in today's episode. Quote, "sorcery accusation-related violence is a worldwide phenomenon. The deaths, mutilations, displacement, and stigmatization arising from accusations of sorcery are often hidden. It's time for a large-scale, coordinated response to what are not unique, one-off incidents, but in fact a wildfire of sorcery accusation -related violence. There is an urgent need for courageous and consistent public leadership," end quote. 
    How do we engage influential individuals in collective action against modern witch hunts? How do we motivate them to use purposeful and additional efforts to stop accusations against alleged witches? We start by talking about the facts, teaching the reality, and seeing ourselves as influencers. 
    The impact of this violence is real and deep on precious families in our world. Instead of thinking of these victims as strangers, who certainly experience different evil and look differently, strangers who must believe differently about the supernatural and sound differently, and strangers who clearly live differently and have different rituals and traditions, intentionally think about them as part of a precious family.
     Is your family precious? When we look at the witch trial stories like the one of Rebecca Nurse from Salem in 1692, do we think her family was precious? What about Sarah, Dorothy, and Dorothy Good Jr? Do we believe that was a precious family? We do. The families that you heard about in today's episodes are precious and need our help. When a mother, father, or child is targeted in sorcery accusation violence, the family unit is traumatized. The harm alters them forever. They need help from influential persons that can stand with them and help them intercede. Who are the influential persons that can intercede? Who are the influential persons that can stand with them? It's me. It's you. It's us. 
    Take action in the specific ways that you know you can today. Join organized groups of people who are working as advocates against witchcraft fear and sorcery accusation-related violence. These advocates are people like you and me. They are people across the globe from different cultures, different religions, and with different skills and professions, but they're coming together to protect the vulnerable. This diversity gives us strength. 
    No one else advocating is just like you. What you hold back will be missing from the work. Please join us with your particular personal contribution. If you can contribute money, do it now. If you can write about what's happening, do it now. If you can talk about it from the front of your classroom or sanctuary, do it at your next meeting. If you can help your friends understand witch hunting over pizza and drinks, wait no longer. Get the word out, that violence against women, men, and children is seeped in witchcraft and sorcery fears. You have heard specific ways that you can start advocating. You do not have to wait to get involved. It is everybody's business to take a stand against the violence humans endure due to the supernatural fears of other humans. 
    Today's guest, Miranda Forsyth, has created a story map to help us better understand sorcery accusation-related violence. She portrays it as a wildfire that starts small but can become a raging inferno with sparks spreading to ignite fires everywhere. The story map draws upon her research into the levels of harm and nature of the victims, as well as highlighting how much fire can be effectively fought and ideally prevented. Go to our show notes today and click the link to the story map. Please be warned that the real life content is graphic and upsetting and conveys the extremity of the violence that is occurring.
    Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast is a project of End Witch Hunts organization. End Witch Hunts has specific projects to effectively fight these fires. We seek to prevent them in the future. We educate the public about witch hunts past and present and work to identify witch-hunt mentalities and prevent injustice. We actively work to End Witch Hunts every day, when we bring awareness through our social media channels and writing, when we offer education through podcasting, when we team up and seek innocent alleged witch exoneration and build memorialization with community partners, when we advocate for responsive public policies and additional efforts from government, when we address witchcraft fear. Partner with us as volunteers. Financially support these active initiatives with your giving. Visit endwitchhunts.org to make a tax deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or by subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast super listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    Keep your eye on our Zazzle store, as we're getting ready to offer some great new designs. Sport one of our awesome shirts and introduce people to the podcast or one of our projects by leaving your house looking cool.
     
    [01:18:38] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:18:40] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:18:42] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shall Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:18:46] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
    [01:18:49] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:18:52] Sarah Jack: See our full episode catalog at thoushaltnotsuffer.com
    [01:18:57] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends, family, and neighbors.
    [01:19:01] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end sorcery accusation-related violence.
    [01:19:05] Josh Hutchinson: Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:19:10] Sarah Jack: Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening.
    [01:19:14] Josh Hutchinson: And have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow. 
    
  • Rachel Christ-Doane on the Salem Witch Museum and the Life of Dorothy Good

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Learn about the latter life of Salem witch trial victim Dorothy Good and Discover what the Salem Witch Museum is all about as we chat with Rachel Christ-Doane, director of education at the Salem Witch Museum. 

    Rachel discusses the history of the museum and the story of the building, the exceptional online educational programming that is available and she explains what a tour of the museum is like. You even get to hear a little about the tourism of the iconic city of Salem, aka Witch City. Next Rachel discusses her recent research project that has brought shocking details to light of what life became for Dorothy Good, the four year old child that was tried for witchcraft in the Salem Witch Trials.  During our advocacy talk we reflect on the plight of people in need in early modern New England and how we stop hunting witches. 

    Links

    The Untold Story of Dorothy Good, by Rachel Christ Doane

    www.salemwitchmuseum.com

    Podcast Episode “Leo Igwe on the Deadly Witch-Hunts of the 21st Century”

    Podcast Episode “Witchcraft Accusations in Nigeria with Dr. Leo Igwe”

    Salem Witch Museum Presentation by Dr. Leo Igwe Advocacy For Alleged Witches

    Documentary:”Why Witch Hunts Are Not Just A Dark Chapter From the Past”

    The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Other Harmful Practices

    Support Us! Shop Our Book Shop

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Website

    Twitter

    Threads

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we talk to Rachel Christ-Doane, director of education for the Salem Witch Museum, about the museum, Salem, and the tragic life of Dorothy Good, youngest victim of the Salem Witch Trials.
    [00:00:40] Sarah Jack: This is such a special episode. We are talking to the Salem Witch Museum in this episode. If there is an extended tour, this might be what it's like. You're gonna learn so much about the Salem Witch Museum history, their robust educational programming, and the future of the museum.
    [00:01:01] Josh Hutchinson: We'll get the behind the scenes of the Salem Witch Museum. Rachel has done a lot for the museum. She does excellent research and has put together a number of very special educational opportunities and offerings. You can find many of them on the website, salemwitchmuseum.com. Others you can experience in the museum or purchase in the gift shop, such as their descendant packets of information on the victims of the Salem Witch Trials.
    [00:01:41] Sarah Jack: And those packets were researched personally by Rachel and Jill Christiansen.
    [00:01:47] Josh Hutchinson: They do thorough research putting together biographies of each of those individuals who were involved in the trials, and as Rachel says, coming up in the episode, it's an extended project. They're always coming out with new packets.
    [00:02:08] Sarah Jack: I visited the Salem Witch Museum for the first time in May.
    [00:02:12] Josh Hutchinson: How was your experience there, Sarah?
    [00:02:15] Sarah Jack: It was really exciting. I actually enjoyed seeing the tourists' excitement as they walked in. And it's just you're anticipating what is it you're gonna learn? What is it you're gonna see? And the staff is so welcoming.
    [00:02:36] Josh Hutchinson: I was actually there at the same time you know what that experience was like. I've been to Salem several times, but that was my first time going in the museum and seeing their highly engaging presentation about the history of the Salem Witch Trials. And the tour guide was very knowledgeable. After the initial presentation, you'll be guided into another room where you'll see exhibits on the history of witch trials and the image of the witch over time, and then you'll be taken to a wall with a timeline of witch hunts over several centuries.
    [00:03:28] Sarah Jack: You are left wanting more, and that is why their virtual programming is so great. You can stay in touch and keep learning.
    Our visit was extra special, because we were accompanied by Dr. Leo Igwe, director of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and that same day he did a virtual presentation for the Salem Witch Museum, which you can watch, and we have the link in our show notes.
    That really was special that we got to do that with him.
    [00:04:02] Josh Hutchinson: You'll remember Dr. Leo Igwe from two of our previous episodes, and we'll have links to those in the show notes.
    We're also going to learn about the history of the Salem Witch Museum's iconic building.
    [00:04:16] Sarah Jack: What is dark tourism? Is Salem tourism and its attractions dark tourism?
    [00:04:21] Josh Hutchinson: We're gonna get an introduction to young Dorothy Good, who was four years old when she was arrested in the trials. We'll learn what happened to her and her family.
    [00:04:35] Sarah Jack: Rachel has uncovered new details of Dorothy's life after the trials.
    [00:04:41] Josh Hutchinson: We'll learn where she went and how she lived.
    [00:04:46] Sarah Jack: You will also find out a little bit about Ann Dolliver and how some of her adult experiences mirrored what Dorothy and other women in those situations suffered through. 
    Welcome Rachel Christ-Doane, the director of education at the Salem Witch Museum. She holds a bachelor's in history from Clark University and a master's in history and museum studies from Tufts University. Today she's going to introduce us to the educational programming the Salem Witch Museum offers and introduce us to the recently discovered details of the life of Dorothy Good, Salem's youngest witch trial victim.
    So we're gonna start with talking about the museum first. Can you tell us when it was founded?
    [00:05:31] Rachel Christ-Doane: The Salem Witch Museum was founded in 1972, so last year was our 50th anniversary.
    [00:05:39] Josh Hutchinson: Wow, that's a big one.
    [00:05:41] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, it was very exciting. It was a lot of fun. We had a private party, but various kind of Salem officials came, and then quite a few people who were involved in actually creating the museum were here, which was really neat to meet them, because our museum's a very kind of unusual format. It's presentation-based, and especially for the seventies, that was a very unusual way to present historical information. So it was really neat hearing about what the process was like creating it and how it's endured and remained, with kind of minimal changes over the years. That's really it. It was like a series of happy accidents led to this place, which is very neat.
    [00:06:24] Josh Hutchinson: We had a great time there in May, and we love the building that you're in. What can you tell us about that?
    [00:06:32] Rachel Christ-Doane: We are very fortunate to have it, but it's also one of our kind of greatest obstacles. So it's a really neat historic building. It was built in mid 19th century, and it was constructed as a church. So it was originally constructed for the East Church congregation of Salem that eventually became known as the Second Unitarian Church, and it served as a church until about the like 1940s, quite, quite a long time. And then the congregation disbanded and was absorbed into other local churches. The building was then an antique car museum for a while. It was an auto and Americana museum, which the pictures from that museum were really wild, seeing these old timey cars in here. And then there was actually a really serious internal fire that destroyed a significant portion of the inside, the internal portion of the museum. So the car museum was gone, and the Salem Witch Museum was founded a couple years later.
    [00:07:31] Sarah Jack: It's very fortunate that they didn't just level it and leave, start from scratch, because the image is such a iconic piece now.
    [00:07:42] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, that's actually the second fire in the museum's history that we know of. We're actually internally not sure that some say there were three fires. There were definitely two. There was another one in the early 20th century, which damaged the towers. So we have those two towers in front of the museum and they actually used to be much taller, and the fire weakened one of the towers, so they both had to be taken down, reduced to their present size. So hopefully that's it for fires with the building.
    [00:08:13] Josh Hutchinson: And for our listeners who haven't been able to join you there yet, what is the presentation like? What's a tour consist of at the museum?
    [00:08:25] Rachel Christ-Doane: So we're a two-part presentation. So the first part, you go into a large darkened auditorium, which was actually where kind of the main congregational space when this building was a church. And you see an audiovisual presentation about the Salem Witch Trials. So it's about 20 minutes long. Large life-sized dioramas that tell you the story of the Salem Witch Trials from the very beginning to the very end, an overview of the event. It is theatrical. It's intended to be entertaining, engaging, I should say, but it is a history presentation at its core. And then our visitors go into a second exhibit, which was added in 1999. It's called Witches: Evolving Perceptions, and that's about the evolving image of the witch, the European witch trials, modern day witchcraft. And then we talk a little bit about the meaning of the word witch-hunt and why we should be learning about these events.
    [00:09:24] Sarah Jack: Your social media is really strong, and you're always enticing us into the programs that you're offering. Do you wanna tell us about what programs are available and how people can experience those?
    [00:09:38] Rachel Christ-Doane: One of the silver linings of the pandemic we can say is we really surged into kind of the virtual stratosphere. So one of the resources we've been offering in the past couple of years are these virtual programs, which are honestly really fun. They're maybe my favorite part of the job. Myself and our assistant education director, Jill Christiansen, work on these programs from year to year. 
    So we typically offer three to four programs a year, sometimes more, sometimes less. And they cover just a variety of topics from researching the Salem Witch Trials and how historians make mistakes in the research process, we did an event about that this year, to contemporary witch hunts, such as those that are going on in Africa, which we posted a guest lecture. Dr. Igwe was here this year. We do events about women's history. We did an event about race and the Salem Witch Trials a few years ago, where we talked about how contemporary conceptions of race informed the way the trials or impacted the way the trials took place and then also how ideas about race have informed the narrative of the witch trials over time. So it's a variety of different events. 
    We create in-house a lot of lectures, which is really fun for us. And then we also bring in guest speakers. And that's just been a way for us to widen our audience and get our information out to people who can't necessarily come visit us in person or who want to visit us in person but haven't had an opportunity yet.
    [00:11:11] Sarah Jack: I just appreciate how broad and deep and enriching the program topics that you offer, and as an out of state descendant, I gleaned a lot of history and information from attending, last May, I attended the panel that you did with several of the Salem authors and that was probably my introduction to the museum, actually. And then getting to visit this May, a year later. But I really appreciate when I see that a program is gonna be happening, it's not, "oh, it's more of the same thing." It's always something that is gonna be really important for people to get to experience. So thanks for doing that.
    [00:11:54] Rachel Christ-Doane: Thank you. That's always really good to hear. And that's the kind of best part about this subject is it's so rich, there's so many different angles you can come into talking about the history of witchcraft. I don't think we'll ever run out of topics for these events. 
    [00:12:11] Josh Hutchinson: And you have another event coming up that looks very intriguing.
    [00:12:16] Rachel Christ-Doane: It's July 20th. We are offering an event called Witch Trials and Antisemitism: a Surprisingly Tangled History. So this is an event that I personally have really wanted to do for several years now. So basically we're gonna very broadly be discussing the kind of overlap in connections between the treatment of Jews in European history and witches. And essentially the kind of very short version is a lot of the stories that are used to demonize Jewish individuals in the medieval period, stories about how Jews eat children and kill babies and drink blood, things that are, of course, 100% incorrect. These are just stories used to demonize others. 
    Those same stories end up getting recycled and used again during the witch trials period. But instead of being used against Jews, they're used against witches. So we're gonna really dive into that overlapping history, and we felt that this was a particularly important topic to talk about, because there has been such a surge in antisemitism over the past few years, and a lot of these same stories are coming up again.
    There's this secret conspiracy of people who are hiding in plain sight, and they're eating children, and it's you hear a lot of rhetoric today that could have been copied and pasted from 1200 or 1500, so we felt like this was a really important topic to really dive into.
    And it's a little bit outside of our comfort zone, cuz we're really diving into the medieval period. But we've put a lot of time and effort into this research, and we've had some really wonderful outside sources consulting with us for this. So I think it's gonna be a really great program.
    [00:13:59] Sarah Jack: That's wonderful. Would you like to tell us how you got started at the museum?
    [00:14:05] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, I ended up here by accident. I always say. It was a fortuitous journey. So when I was in the midst of my undergrad career, I was a history major, and I was interested in women's history, and I didn't quite know how I was going to ever make money out of, find a profession that would actually pay me to do that kind of history.
    I applied to a bunch of different museums across Massachusetts, thinking it would be good to just get some experience in a museum space. And I applied at the Salem Witch Museum, and they had a opening position. So I worked here on the floor as just a general staff member, and I just fell in love with Salem and with this history. And I, you know, have have been here ever since. That was 2015. So I ended up finishing out my undergraduate career really focusing on witchcraft history. And then when I graduated, I came back to the museum and was able to pursue a master's degree while working here. And I've been the director of education since about 2018.
    So it's been a really fun journey and now I always joke that I'm so specialized in this now I can't leave. Not that I would ever want to, this is definitely a job like no other, which is really special.
    [00:15:24] Josh Hutchinson: We're so glad that you're there. You're doing wonderful work with all these programming and the educational offerings that you have. I know summer's a busy season for you, but what is life like there in October?
    [00:15:41] Rachel Christ-Doane: So I've been working here for about eight years now, and even in just that time, October has become steadily more and more difficult to manage in some ways as time has gone on. So for those who might be listening who don't know, October is by far the busiest time of year for Salem. The city sponsors an event called Haunted Happenings. It's a fall festival that goes on for the entire month of October. And it was actually envisioned as, it was created as, a one weekend event in 1982. It was just supposed to be two days. And nobody could have foreseen how popular this festival would become.
    There's all kinds of things happening throughout the city throughout that time. The different businesses do special events and things like that. There's tours, there's concerts. It's a really fun time to be here. But Salem is actually quite a small city. We were never meant to be hosting a festival that's this popular.
    So even in the past few years since the pandemic, last year, we had the busiest year on record. We had over a million people come in the month of October, which was just unbelievably crazy to a point where the city's infrastructure simply can't handle it. Restrooms were breaking all over the city, like the plumbing of Salem couldn't physically handle it. It's a testament to how much people love Halloween and the popularity of that particular fall holiday, which people now very strongly associate with Salem. So it's a blessing and a curse. 
    It's really fun to work here in October to a degree. You get to meet people from all over the world who are in full-on Halloween costumes for the entire month of October, who are just so happy and excited to be here, so that's really fun. But at the same time it's also very demanding, and people tend to get a little frustrated trying to get in and out of Salem and are maybe not so nice to the service workers while they're here. So this is a friendly reminder to always be nice to service workers wherever you go, because it's people just trying their best to make your visit fun.
    So it's good, and it's stressful. And it's also what allows Salem to thrive as a community, because the revenue that's generated in October is what keeps the city going throughout the winter. So again, it's a blessing and a curse all in one.
    [00:18:12] Sarah Jack: And is there any other aspects of the tourism that you might like to speak to as far as the city or your museum?
    [00:18:21] Rachel Christ-Doane: So I always say that Salem is a very unique example of tourism. We're a case of what would be called dark tourism. Contemporary tourists traveling to a site associated with dark or tragic history. So Salem is this very kind of unique, strange place because when most people think of the word witch today, they don't necessarily think of the historic criminal offense of witchcraft.
    Of course, they know witch trials happened here and usually are aware that resulted in the deaths of innocent people. But for most people, witches are a pop culture phenomena. They're Hocus Pocus and Harry Potter and Wicked and Charmed and all of these kind of beloved cultural figures we know today.
    So that makes tourism here very tricky, because what draws people here is not necessarily a colonial history lesson. It's this kind of deeper story of the supernatural and magic and the occult and things like that. Which I always say is not a bad thing. It's very tempting to condemn the contemporary tourism industry here and say, "this is so inappropriate, none of it should happen. Why would the city feed into this at all?" And I always say, it's not a bad thing that people have this in mind. You can't criticize people, because that's just what our culture is today. The important thing to do is once they're here and they're excited about being here, is to then use it as an opportunity to educate them about the importance of this history and what really happened and what a witch really was in 1692.
    And you know, I won't flatter myself to say that every person leaves our museum, for example, with this kind of more enlightened view of the witch, but we certainly hope that many of our visitors do. And again, it's this kind of really unique opportunity to educate that most historical sites only dream about. So it's an interesting place, Salem.
    [00:20:26] Josh Hutchinson: And what are some of the historical points of interest that are near the museum?
    [00:20:33] Rachel Christ-Doane: There's lots of stuff nearby the museum, lots of places with direct connections to the witch trials and also just to the broader history of Salem. Salem is an embarrassment of riches when we talk about the history here, beyond the witch trials. 
    But in terms of our witch history, we're very close to several important sites. The site where the Salem Jail stood is right around the corner from our building. The site where the courthouse was and the meeting house. Those are all very near where we are. And when you guys were here, we obviously, we did a little walking tour and showed you the sites. And we do have a witch trials online sites tour on our website, where you can see different sites in Salem and across Essex County that have these connections.
    So even if a marker isn't there today, we will show you the approximate location and the history of that site. That's our assistant education director's baby. That's a project she will work on for the rest of her life. So it's an ever expanding resource. But then we also have the Witch Trials Memorial that's very close to us.
    So that memorial was actually in part created by our museum. We were very involved in its creation. Our director at the time and education director were extremely involved in organizing the tercentenary and the creation of the Witch Trials Memorial. And we actually have an entire virtual lecture about the history of the memorial, if anybody is interested in it, but that site is a really special place. It's right next to the Old Buring Point Cemetery, which is one of the oldest cemeteries in America, and several of the judges from the witch trials are buried there. Yeah, if anybody's ever visiting Salem, I always recommend going to the memorial, because it's really, it's a good place to reflect on what really happened here and the real people who were involved.
    [00:22:25] Sarah Jack: Yes. Thank you so much for that walking tour. It was really memorable to be able to do that with you. And we had Dr. Igwe with us, and I remember when we were at the memorial, when we walked up and he saw the quotes there from some of the victims, how much that struck him, because he hears those words now too many times where he's working. So thank you for giving us that extra little history lesson and experience when we visited. 
    What is next for the Salem Witch Museum?
    [00:22:59] Rachel Christ-Doane: It's kind of a two-part answer. So we're in the midst of the series of very large updates, interpretive updates. This is something we've been working on for many years now. The kind of first leg of this project was updating our second exhibit, Witches: Evolving Perceptions. So when I say updating, the kind of most significant element of this is removing some dated scholarship.
    So scholarship, as we know, changes all the time. We learn more and more all the time about this history and kind of particularly in regards to witchcraft history. This field is still relatively new. It doesn't become a very serious academic discipline until the mid 20th century. So a lot of research has been produced since the creation of our museum and the creation of these exhibits.
    So updating the interpretation, removing some dated content, such as when that exhibit, second exhibit was created. It was widely believed that a million people were executed during the European witch trials. Now, we now know that that's actually impossible given the population of Europe and the effects of the Black Plague. And historians have come up with the more reasonable estimate that it's closer probably to about 45,000 people on the lower end of the spectrum. Getting rid of information like that, adding new information just in response to our audience and what we see people interested in learning about, adding some new artifacts back there has been a big push in recent years. 
    We have a first edition of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz in our section where we talk about the evolving image of the witch. We do actually have a copy of the book, The Malleus Maleficarum, which was an incredibly important text during the European witch trials. It was a manual for witch hunters. We have a copy of that and several other texts related to demonology in our collection that are not yet on display, but are hopefully going on display in the next few years. 
    And then the next big saga or the next chapter is updating our main presentation and doing the same thing, removing points of dated scholarship. So that presentation was created in 1972, and since 1972, we've learned a lot about the trials. We've learned a lot about the kind of story of events. So the kind of cause and effect at the beginning of the trials, particularly the role of Tituba, who's an enslaved woman who's one of the first accused. That's something we've learned a lot about and had to unlearn some narratives since 1972. Things like knowing the location of the hangings, knowing it's not Gallows Hill, it's Proctor's Ledge, these are all relatively recent elements of the scholarly conversation. So all this to say, this is the next big project.
    But the project has been going on for many years now, and it's been a series of really unfortunate events. The first time we started working on this, the front of the building started to separate from the building. It started to sag off. So that was a million dollar project just to fix the structure of the building.
    And that's why I say our building is a blessing and a curse, because maintenance to a 19th century building is very difficult. And then the second time we had pulled the plug on this, it was January of 2020 and a couple months later, the entire country shut down. So we are now in round three.
    I swear if there are any more destructive, life-altering events, we're gonna have to burn a sage bonfire or something, cuz it's feeling like this project is a little cursed. But anyway that's the next big thing on our horizon is just finishing finally that big project so that we can move on and work on building additional exhibits and adding additional content and things like that.
    [00:26:44] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for sharing so much about the museum. We absolutely enjoyed ourselves there and your programming. And you also are heavily involved in research, and you've done some very incredible research into Dorothy Good, one of your subjects. And could you introduce Dorothy to the audience?
    [00:27:10] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah. So Dorothy is arguably one of the saddest stories from the Salem Witch Trials. So she is the daughter of Sarah Good, who's one of the first people accused. She is executed during the trials, and Dorothy is four years old, so she is accused of witchcraft not long after her mother. She is arrested and placed in prison, and she remains in jail for about eight months, seven or eight months. So she's not released from prison until December of 1692. And she is so traumatized by her experience that she is never able to recover. Her mother dies. Her infant sister, who accompanies her mother to jail, because she's too young to be separated from her mother, also dies in jail. And she's four years old, shackled in a prison cell. So the emotional trauma she carried with her through the rest of her life is just, it's very hard for us to really even imagine today.
    [00:28:15] Sarah Jack: I was wondering what, were there other types of situations where they would have imprisoned and shackled a child of that age during that time?
    [00:28:25] Rachel Christ-Doane: Maybe. It's very hard to envision. There are cases of extreme poverty where, they wouldn't necessarily, and this is also a little bit later after 1692, you wouldn't necessarily be arrested and shackled, but you might be sent to a poor house. But yeah, it's very difficult to envision another situation where a child that young would be arrested for a crime. It would have to be a very unusual situation.
    [00:28:54] Sarah Jack: It really struck me when you were giving your presentation for History Camp and you talked about what it would've even been like to get her to the prison, that she would've not walked herself there. She would've been brought there, like physically carried, picked up.
    [00:29:12] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah. So my research in recent years, the past couple years, has been about her adult life. And I stumbled upon these records in the Salem town selectmen record book that show she kind of, as an adult, bounces around from house to house for most of her adult life, because she's unable to care for herself. So it's this really horrible story about not only the youngest accused witch during the Salem Witch Trials but also the life of a colonial woman who couldn't contribute to society. So if you weren't able to fulfill the role of mother, wife, keeper of the house, society struggled to deal with you.
    And honestly, it's, that is true to this day, right? We still have a difficult time dealing with people who can't contribute to society. And Dorothy is, it turns out, a really clear example of that, so I have been working on this research about this story of her adult life for a few years. I published an article in the American Ancestors Magazine this past, I think it was the Spring edition, where I talk about the discovery and what we know now.
    And now I'm currently pivoting and trying to work on this as a full book, just really diving into what do these records really tell us about a woman in the 18th century who couldn't function, who's struggling with a mental health issue, whatever that may be in clinical terms? She's not able to care for herself, so what does that mean? So it's really depressing research, but it's really interesting, and it certainly aligns with, I've always been interested in women's history. Turns out women's history is extremely depressing.
    [00:31:05] Josh Hutchinson: What does the story mean? What is the importance of this new information about Dorothy for understanding the aftermath of the Salem witch trials?
    [00:31:17] Rachel Christ-Doane: Sometimes people are a little shocked when they hear that 20 people are executed and shocked in terms of they think that number should be much higher. And I think that stems from the Salem Witch Trails are just so famous. You hear about them in popular culture so frequently. They're arguably the most famous witchcraft trial in Western history. So they assume that the, quote, unquote, "body count" should be higher or it should have been more brutal or something like that. And this is a reminder of 20 people being executed is a very large amount, number one. We can't discount that, but then we also can't discount the people who lived afterwards were forever altered by this experience. You didn't just go back to your day-to-day life like nothing had happened. So many people were traumatized, would've certainly struggled to live in this community or just live out the rest of their lives. We can only imagine, especially those people who were imprisoned for months and months. So it's kind of a reminder of these events were absolutely devastating to every person involved, not just the executed but the survivors were also forever destroyed by these events.
    [00:32:36] Sarah Jack: And in the Good case, prior to the execution of Sarah, their family was already really struggling. Mr. Good wasn't necessarily helping Sarah contribute to society, and now she's gone, but he is still there. So Dorothy still has a father. Did he remarry? Did he take care of Dorothy? What happened?
    [00:33:03] Rachel Christ-Doane: So he does remarry. He remarries relatively quickly after the trials. I don't remember the date exactly, it's I'll have to look it up, but it's maybe a year or two later. It's pretty fast, which was not uncommon during the time, especially because he now has this very traumatized four-year-old daughter. He likely needed a partner in the house to help him. He actually submits a request for a reparations payment when the reparations process is happening in the 1700s. And previously, that request for a payment had been all that we knew about Dorothy. 
    So he says in that payment that he is asking on behalf of his wife who's died, his other child who has died, and then his daughter Dorothy, who was shackled in a prison for months. And he says she is "chargeable, having little or no reason to govern herself." So when you look up the phrase chargeable, it actually means she's expensive. So meaning that her care is difficult, it's taxing on him financially. And then saying with little or no reason to govern herself, we have long inferred that meant she's clearly struggling with some sort of debilitating mental illness as a result of her trauma.
    So we know that she lives with her father for quite a few years after the trials and his new wife. However, she in, I think it's around 1708 or so, starts to appear in the care of other people. So he clearly is not capable of taking care of her. And when he actually is awarded his reparation payment in 1711, he directs that payment go to the person who's currently caring for her, which indicates she's not living with him, certainly by that time.
    William Good does not come across as a good person in history, and it's always hard to draw those definitive lines about who's a good person and who's not, especially cuz we have such little information about them. But he's not a good provider for Sarah. We know that the couple were destitute, they were forced to beg in the years before 1692.
    Then during Sarah's trial or pre-trial examinations, he comes forward, and he says that she's probably a witch. Like he implicates her. And then after the trials are over, he ends up giving up Dorothy into the care of somebody else. We don't know what's going on with him. Maybe he's struggling with his own demons. Maybe he just wasn't capable of providing for a child that was that sick. But he does abandon her ultimately into the care of someone else. And then he disappears. And interestingly, his second wife, whose name is Elizabeth, she actually appears in the Selectmen records as well and seems to be in the care of other people. So I think he abandons both of them. He either dies, and his death is not recorded, which is certainly possible, or he just disappears, and he leaves them both, and he moves away. So either way, not a great ending for William Good.
    [00:36:06] Josh Hutchinson: And given the struggles that her family had with poverty and then her own challenges, I'd like to know, was there a system in place to aid people who had needs like that?
    [00:36:21] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yes. And that's actually why we know why there are records about Dorothy in the years that follow. So New England's poverty laws are very much mimicking the poverty laws in England. So essentially they're supposed to have an overseer, set of overseers of the poor, people who pay attention to the poor in your area and make sure that they're being cared for. 
    They do have a requirement about quote, unquote, "deserving poor." So these are people who are legal residents of your town. So that's to say that if somebody wandered into your town who was from Billerica, let's say, wanders into Salem Village. Salem Village would not be legally obligated to provide for that person. They would pass them back to Billerica, because it was Billerica's duty to be the one who's caring for them. 
     So it's, yes, they did have a system in place to care for them, but it's, they're really trying to pass people off. They try very hard not to have to care for you if they don't have to. And basically the systems that it is in place for many years is people would be put into the care of a local family. So you would live with someone for X amount of time. Usually they're doing it year by year, and the town would pay that family for your care. So they would pay for your clothing, for your food, things like that, and then, a year later, if that family still wanted to take care of you, they would keep you, and there would be a notation about it in the selectman records, or if not, somebody else would take you in, ideally, and the cycle would continue. 
    So that's how I was able to find Dorothy, is I was looking in the selectman records for somebody else, for Ann Dolliver, who is also accused of witchcraft, and she lived where our museum actually stands today. I was trying to figure out when her death date is, and I knew she was involved in this system of caring for the poor. And in looking for her, I found all these records from selectman, year to year, commenting on the care of Dorothy.
    [00:38:28] Sarah Jack: Who ended up taking care of Dorothy?
    [00:38:31] Rachel Christ-Doane: So it's a series of people. There's a Putnam who actually cares for her for a little while. It's Benjamin Putnam. Who is in terms of, if you know anything about the witch trials, the Putnam's are the villain family. They're the chief accusers, we can say, Thomas Putnam's family is. But this is a very large family, and there's certainly members of the Putnam families who are not involved in the witch trials or are sympathetic to the victims. So Benjamin is part of the family where his father hadn't been very involved. He hadn't been very involved. His father signed a petition, in fact, in favor of Rebecca Nurse. So they seem to have been sympathetic to the victims. 
    So he cares for her for a while. He then passes away, and his son Nathaniel takes over her care for a little while. And then she actually disappears and comes back pregnant. So that's, we don't really know what happened, or I'm working on finding out what happens to her, but whether she got pregnant living in Nathaniel's house, whether she left the house, went somewhere else, and returned pregnant is unclear. There is no record indicating who the father of the child is, so it's a big question mark. She and the baby end up living with Nathan for a little while, and then she bounces around from a few different houses. 
    She ends up in the house of corrections for a little while, which is like a poorhouse. It's places that people who were impoverished, who weren't showing signs of participating in society at all, so who were not helping in the houses they were living in or being quote, unquote, "lazy." Things like that could get you a stay in the house of correction. So she's there for a little while. She ends up getting pregnant a second time and gives birth in Concord, which is very confusing. How and why she ends up in Concord is still very unclear. 
    And then ultimately she ends up for most of her life, or most of her adult life, in the care of a man named Jonathan Batchelder, who lives in Beverly. He's very interesting, because he actually testified against Sarah Good years before, during the witch trials. He's young at the time. He's a a teenager. But he's one of the people who offers testimony against her. So we can make all kinds of speculations about is he taking care of Dorothy, Sarah's child, out of guilt, out of Christian charity, because he feels remorse for what he did? Whatever the case, he ends up taking care of her and her second child.
    And then after Jonathan dies, Dorothy disappears, no idea where she goes. That's, I have some theories about it, but no definitive proof. And we don't know when or where she dies definitively, although I'm probably gonna spend the rest of my life trying to figure it out.
    [00:41:20] Josh Hutchinson: One of those men you mentioned in your talk and in the article in American Ancestors was Robert Hutchinson, and he's my ninth great grand uncle. And thought I'd mention that. But his father, Joseph, was one of the ones who accused Sarah Good. So I always wondered, once I learned that Robert had involvement with Dorothy Good, was he making up for something? It's speculation, of course. 
    [00:41:49] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, that's fascinating. Especially because, so I will confess, I have a negative view of Robert, because Dorothy doesn't seem to wanna stay with him. So there's two or three occasions where she's, there's a record that says she's supposed to go into his care, and then she ends up somewhere else, either in the House of Corrections, or she ends up in Concord giving birth to a child.
    She, it seems like there's a couple of attempts for her to stay with him, and she does maybe stay with him for some amount of time, but it's very interesting to me that it doesn't really stick. And we can make a lot of speculations as to why, so I, we all have like fictional narratives of what's going on, and then I kind of wonder if maybe she just didn't like him or didn't like living in his house for some reason. Is something going on there? But that's very interesting. If you find anything else about your relative, let me know.
    [00:42:43] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, absolutely.
    [00:42:45] Sarah Jack: My speculative narrative on that situation is maybe Mrs. Hutchinson didn't want her there.
    [00:42:51] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah. So the kind of darkest narrative, I will confess, is she does get pregnant around one of the times where she's supposed to be living with him. Is he the father of her child? That is total speculation. I have literally no reason to think that other than she's just near him. But so I don't wanna slander the name of Robert Hutchinson, but it's interesting to consider, you know, especially because we have no leads.
    Normally in a case of an unwed mother, or I should say regularly in a case of an unwed mother, they would really try to figure out who the father is, because that helped with the financial situation. It was in the town's best interest to have a recorded father, because then they could be financially responsible for the child, as opposed to if no father is named, then now you've got a baby born out of wedlock, so you have to support the mother and the baby.
    I have been through the records looking at cases of premarital sex and bastard children, and there's a lot of records of women and their baby daddies, for lack of a better term, that the court would force them to on record say who it was, and Dorothy just does not appear in those records. So that's really interesting. Could they just not get her to say who it was? We don't know. Given her mental state, was she capable of telling them who it was? It's unclear. We don't know how cognitive she is. We don't know how she might not have been a verbal person. It's very kinda shady the way her mental health is described.
    So yeah, we can, we can, and I do, make many speculations about it on my own, but in lack of firm evidence, all we can say is there's two babies. One's a boy and one's a girl, and we have no idea who the fathers are.
    [00:44:42] Josh Hutchinson: And you mentioned a house of corrections. What was that?
    [00:44:49] Rachel Christ-Doane: So it's like a workhouse, poorhouse. So the house of corrections in Salem is actually built as an attachment onto the jail, which is a whole other layer of kind of, a whole other disturbing layer here, because Dorothy is certainly in jail in Salem for some amount of time. I don't think she's there for the majority of her imprisonment. I think she's in Boston. But she was brought there for her initial questioning. She may have been transferred there at some point. Her mother is certainly transferred there before her trial. The fact that Dorothy is then as an adult sent to the house of correction, which is just a building added on to that jail space, that's horrible that we can only imagine how triggering that would be. 
    So when people who are sent there, there are some lines in the records describing other women who are there, who were set to work like spinning and things like that. So this was a place for people who, again, were not contributing to society. There's some very strong language in the Massachusetts laws that say, if you're idle, if you're slothful, things like that, you will be sent to the house of correction. So yeah, what she's actually doing in there, who can say, but other people who were in that situation were required to like spin wool and things like that.
    [00:46:13] Sarah Jack: I was wondering who took care of her children.
    [00:46:17] Rachel Christ-Doane: So both children become indentured servants, which was very common for children in that situation. Even if both parents were known, if they were both impoverished parents who couldn't necessarily care for the children, the kids would be sent out to work in other people's homes and be raised there.
    So an indentured contract essentially says you are going to be a servant in my home for X amount of years. I believe for boys it's 18 years. For girls it's 21 years. I think I could have that backwards, but I think it's boys 18, girls 21. And in exchange, the master of the house will teach them a set of skills. So they will clothe them, they will bathe them, they will feed them, and they will teach them a trade. So for girls, domestic work, for boys, depended on the trade that person was in. And we'll teach them to read and write. We'll teach them some amount of literacy. So it was, in a way, kind of a good solution.
    The idea was a child will be able to leave an indentured contract and have a trade, so be able to support themselves to some degree. So we know that her daughter is indentured to Nathaniel Putnam, and she's there for her set term, and her son, whose name is William, is indentured to Jonathan Batchelder.
    And Dorothy actually disappears before Williams' indentured contract is up. So I would assume both kids stay where they're supposed to be for their full contracts. But I haven't been able to find any records of where they might go from there. Maybe they die, maybe they move away and they're just gonna appear in a different town records. They're not in the vital records at all. So that's another thing I'm gonna be hunting down for the rest of my life. I was joking with Marilynne Roach, the historian, that this is gonna deteriorate into me going selectman record to selectman record, town to town. And she laughed, cuz she wrote the Day by Day Chronicle, which took her like 30 years. So who am I to complain?
    [00:48:27] Josh Hutchinson: And is it known what trades the children were being trained for?
    [00:48:35] Rachel Christ-Doane: So Dorothy, the, girl is being trained as a domestic worker, so to be able to serve in a house. I don't remember off the top of my head what William's trade was. I think it might have been carpentry, but I'll have to look it up. The indentured records for both of them exist. This housewright? And there's no record of him. I have got, so he's living in Beverly at the time. So I have been to Beverly to look through their records to see if there's any indication of him working as a housewright. And nothing yet. Unfortunately, their records are missing a big chunk in the exact time I'm looking for, which that happens. Maybe there was a record of him that just hasn't survived. So we will never know.
    [00:49:19] Sarah Jack: Some of the timeline of Dorothy's adult life shows that she was a wanderer. It looks like there's records that show she was warned outta town. What does that mean, warned outta town?
    [00:49:31] Rachel Christ-Doane: So warned out of town is essentially somebody who is being forced to leave for one reason or another. So it oftentimes has to do with a woman becoming pregnant. And it has to do with your status as a resident. So again, if you're not considered to be a legal resident of that town and you do something that it is not favorable to the town. For example, Martha Carrier, she and Thomas Carrier are warned out of Andover after the smallpox epidemic in the 1690s. So they don't actually end up leaving, it seems. They're told to go, and it doesn't seem like they do. So it's like a kind of official notice saying you need to go. 
    Dorothy is warned out. In her case, which is very common, it's after she gets pregnant, there's this notice that says you have to go, we're not taking financial responsibility for you, essentially. In her case, she doesn't, she also doesn't leave. And it seems that she then immediately kind of ends up in the care of Nathaniel Putnam. So my thought is that there's this notice issued and Nathaniel steps in and says, "I will take her, and she will live with me, and that will be the solution to this."
    Yeah, it's, it's just kind of part of their system of caring for the poor. It's a really kind of brutal system of care and it's, a lot of it has to do with money, as it does today.
    [00:50:54] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, that's just another layer of this multi-layered tragedy. Just that she gets pregnant, has children, the fathers don't step up, the town won't want to assume the bills, so basically nobody does, except that, fortunately, Nathaniel Putnam does offer to take her in.
    [00:51:20] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, but there's, this is just one case of, it's an interesting and really sad window into women's lives, of what happens if nobody stepped up for you. You're just left destitute. And Sarah, her mother is in that position. She's got, she does have a husband, but the husband's pretty useless. She's wandering around the town, she's, she doesn't have anywhere permanent to live, and she's got a four year old and an infant baby in 1692. And her life has deteriorated into just living off of charity.
    [00:51:56] Sarah Jack: I just think that it's really gonna be incredible as you're working on your book that you can take, you know, this tale of little Dorothy from the Salem Witch Trials. But these records that are emerging are going to put a lens on the experience of women in the 17th century in these situations. So it's really a beautiful thing. She's gonna be able to teach us more about those experiences, and you're able to give that to the world. So thank you.
    [00:52:29] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, and I say that there's a silver lining to this horror. It's, number one, it's, it gives us this really interesting window into the life of impoverished women in the colonial period. There has been some really excellent work about women's lives during this time. Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, for example, has written some phenomenal works about being a woman and just your day-to-day life.
    But it's so rare to have information about impoverished people, because they don't, they're not showing up in the records, unless they're, they have done something wrong. They're not, they're, the records of their lives don't exist. So having access to that is really incredible.
    But I also, I've said a few times this discovery is meaningful, because it also tells us that Sarah Good's line might have continued. So until now, we've thought that it stopped after Dorothy and her sister, who dies, and Dorothy, we just assumed didn't have children, and we now know she has both a son and a daughter. You know, I've yet to figure out what happens from there. But the fact that she has two children certainly may suggest her line continues. So that would be really incredible to find out that she has living descendants to this day.
    [00:53:48] Josh Hutchinson: We're talking about 17th and 18th century, how unfortunate people were treated, and, unfortunately, our legacy of treatment of the unhoused, the impoverished, unwed mothers hasn't been stellar since then, either.
    [00:54:09] Rachel Christ-Doane: I'm thinking that's the epilogue of this book is that we, when we're talking about the 17th century or the 18th century, we tend to say, "oh, those unenlightened early colonists, they were just less intelligent than us today, more brutish, less civilized. And we have made it so far since then." And the truth of the matter is that is absolutely not the case. We have so many similarities with people living during this time. We are still struggling with the same issues they struggled with. We may have indoor plumbing, but that doesn't make us better than them or more intelligent than they were.
    So that's something that I always feel like it's really important to stress. And yeah, in this case, looking at the treatment of unwed mothers, of women who struggle with a mental illness that's debilitating, there's a lot of similarities between then and now. And we can't ignore them.
    [00:55:09] Josh Hutchinson: There are so many laws that really disturb me today, and more come up every day about, that almost make it illegal just to be impoverished. You can't sleep in public. People are taking benches away, so you can't even sit down in a lot of places, and it just makes it, it's an impossible situation you're in already, and it's so much harder. You end up spending a lot of time behind bars, unfortunately.
    [00:55:43] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yep. And again, it's not very different. It's not so different from the 17th century, unfortunately.
    [00:55:49] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, and so we don't know where she went after Salem and Beverly?
    [00:55:57] Rachel Christ-Doane: Not definitively. So I say at the end of the lecture there's a theory. So there is this very intriguing newspaper article that is published in New London, Connecticut that says, that's a death notice for a woman named Dorothy Good that describes her as a transient, vagrant person who has been found laying dead in a bog meadow. And it is, I don't remember the exact timing, but it's maybe like 20 years after she disappears. So I can certainly speculate.
    I think maybe, and this is all super speculation, but Jonathan Batchelder may have been a consistent person in her life. She stays with him for a very long time. That's the truth of the matter. Does she feel safe with him? Does she, is that kind of becoming a home for her? And then he passes away, and she disappears? So my thought is, and she also has this recorded tendency to wander, that's something that comes up in the records a couple of times, that she's a wandering person. So my thought is he dies, and maybe she leaves, and she just ends up wandering town to town, maybe getting warned out of other places. That's my, not hope, but going forward, my last kind of thread here is looking at other notices of people being warned out to see if she appears anywhere else that would at least give us some indication of where she is.
    And maybe because it's a period of numerous years, she certainly theoretically could have wandered as far as Connecticut. It's a very long period of time she's missing. That is a very far distance to go. It seems impossible, but it's, it is, it is technically possible. And just the description of her, Dorothy Good, a transient, vagrant person. It sounds like her, it sounds the way that she's described in the records in Salem. 
    So it's been pointed out by my colleague, this could also be her daughter, whose name is also Dorothy Good. It seems less likely to me, because Dorothy Good, Jr. is in a more stable situation. She's an indentured servant for Nathaniel Putnam. She's learning a trade. It feels to me like why would she end up being a transient person? It's possible. But yeah, it does feel like that could. I have this kind of just feeling it's her. I can't say it definitively, but, and what a horrible ending, though. Like part of me doesn't want it to be her, because if it is, she ends up dead in a bog. She ends up dead outside probably having died from exposure. And that's horrible. I really want her to have ended up somewhere where she's being cared for by a loving family. But who can say? It doesn't always work out that way, unfortunately.
    [00:58:53] Sarah Jack: Yeah, it's really incredible that a name was even included in that description, because then it, you could have never put this as a possibility to her story. And then I know you had mentioned how this post was in multiple news outlets. That's very interesting.
    [00:59:14] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, it's republished in three other papers in addition to the one in New London, including one in Massachusetts. There's, I believe it's two in New York, one in Massachusetts. I did have a long conversation with the historian in New London or the archivist in New London about this. She very kindly is the one who helped me find the full text for it. And she was wondering, is it just because it's so sensational of a story, it could just be that's a horrible way for someone to die. Maybe that's why it's published in multiple news outlets. It also feels to me, though, like it's certainly possible people were aware of her role in the witch trials. It's a reach, because they don't say anything about the witch trials in that death notice. Maybe that's why it reaches so far is because people are aware, or maybe people regionally had been aware she was involved in the witch trials in New London, and they wanted people back home to be aware she had died. So it's a very interesting little piece of text. 
    And I also mentioned in the article that Good is not a very common surname at this time. If you look in vital records in both Massachusetts and Connecticut, there are very few Goods, if any, beyond this family. There's variations of the name Good, like longer versions of the name, but just to have someone with the last name Good, and then to have also the first name Dorothy. It's either a very remarkable coincidence, or it's one of the two Dorothys from Salem.
    [01:00:47] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, after I had heard you mention that, I did some searching online, and it was very difficult to find anybody named Good. It, you'd think it sounds like it would be a common name, and then it's absolutely not.
    [01:01:05] Rachel Christ-Doane: There's lots of Goodwins, there's no Goods. And that actually makes it very difficult. I have no idea what William's story is, Sarah's husband, where he's born, where he comes from, where he's living before he meets Sarah, that is all up in the air. Because again, there's just very, there, I have not been able to find any mentions of his family or his lineage at all.
    So that's another kind of big question mark of where did he come from? Is he the one who's starting the kind of Good family name here? Because there are Goods showing up in the 19th century, so a full century later. So what is happening there? That's an interesting question.
    [01:01:52] Sarah Jack: Yeah, this research on Dorothy Good and then how could pieces get filled in through identifying descendants, that is like, there's so much promise there possibly.
    [01:02:07] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah. That's the interesting part about a research project like this is there's a lot of possible ends, and some of them will have reward. I went to the Phillips Library looking for indentured records, not knowing if I would find anything, and I did find William and Dorothy, so that was a huge day for me. But then, going back and looking again through prison records and court records of unwed mothers and their children, nothing, dead ends. That's the kind of frustrating and rewarding part about research is you'll have a spurt where you find something and it's thrilling and then dead ends for years. So we'll see.
    [01:02:53] Josh Hutchinson: I was really blown away that you found anything at all, because I had always thought that her story dead-ended with her just being chargeable and needing maintenance the rest of her life.
    [01:03:07] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, me too. This, as I said, was a total accident. It was just, it was research about another person who I didn't know if I would be able to find anything about her. But, Ann Dolliver is a pretty obscure research subject. She, she, like Dorothy, is another person who struggles with mental health issues. She's the daughter of Reverend John Higginson, who is one of, he's the older minister of Salem in 1692. So I was just looking for, I knew she was in the care of the town after her father died, and I felt like logically there should be a record of the payments for her care from that point on, cuz it's a financial transaction, and theoretically when those payments stop, that means she has died. And so I was just super lucky to have access to the selectmen records. They were digitized only a few years ago, evidently. And it, you could have knocked me over the day where I started to realize that there was another very familiar name in these records that I kept coming across.
    So yeah, it's, it was all just kind of luck. But and it also begs the question of what else is hiding out there, what other stories are in records that we haven't found yet?
    [01:04:28] Josh Hutchinson: And Ann Dolliver also is interesting to me that she ends up in a similar situation, because of who her father was and the status of her brother, John Higginson Jr., also.
    [01:04:40] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, so she actually has a lot of similarities to Dorothy, in a way. So she is married to a fisherman in Gloucester, who appears to be a horrible guy. They have three kids together, and then he abandons her. So because he has abandoned her, she ends up having to come back and live with her father.
    And the similarities are in terms of the way that they're described in records indicates she's not stable to a degree, you know, and again it's such vague language, we can't really make a diagnosis of what's going on in either case. But Ann also seems to really have struggled with what they would call melancholy. She is not able to live independently or remarry. And she ends up in the care of another family, very similar, in a similar way that Dorothy does, who take care of her for the rest of her life, again indicating she's not able to support herself, and she actually ends up living away from her children like Dorothy, probably because she either couldn't or wouldn't care for them.
    So yeah, it's, again, it's just a window into this is what happened to a woman if you couldn't marry and have kids and fulfill your expected role.
    [01:06:00] Sarah Jack: I think it's incredible how, when historians and writers and researchers like yourself start to work on a story, records start revealing the story. It's, it really is like a voice from the past, but it's also a look into ourselves. It's such an important thing, the story. So I'm so excited about this era of research in general for our society and, but particularly with the witch hunts it, there's so much to glean from it.
    [01:06:36] Rachel Christ-Doane: Yeah, very much so. My hope is that these warned out records will show up, so that's, it's why you can never put the pen down, right? Because things will just keep coming up.
    [01:06:47] Josh Hutchinson: Do you have anything that you want to add or anything else you wanted to talk about? Either the museum or anything else?
    [01:06:57] Rachel Christ-Doane: I would say that just the best way to keep up with what we're doing here is following us on social media. So we are just @SalemWitchMuseum on both Facebook and Instagram, and actually TikTok, also, which kind of our new, newest addition to social media, which I still don't know if I like or not. But yeah, that's where we post about our upcoming virtual events like the antisemitism lecture, which is coming out next week. And that's where we post about new research that's going on, like additions to our online sites tour or new descendant packets. We will actually have hopefully five new descendant packets, we currently have four finished, we're going for the fifth, that will be ready in September this year. So that's where you can see what's new, what's happening, and then also just our day-to-day, what our hours are and things like that. Please follow us on social media, and then check out our website, which is salemwitchmuseum.com, which has a whole bunch of different resources for descendants, for teachers, for students, for just avid history lovers. So yeah, that's the best place to see what we're doing and what's going on here.
    [01:08:04] Josh Hutchinson: I also want to plug your YouTube channel. Do put these wonderful virtual events on there, and I've gone again and again to watch video after video, so I appreciate that you do that.
    [01:08:20] Rachel Christ-Doane: Thank you. Yeah, that's another one. We also have the videos on our website as well, so there's a couple different places you can see them, but we always try to record virtual lectures. The only lectures we don't record are the ones that are ticketed, which these days are not many. Almost all of them are free now. So if we can record it, we do. And then, yes, those are available on our YouTube page and also on our website.
    [01:08:43] Sarah Jack: And now for Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:08:54] Mary Bingham: Joanna Towne. I would like to address the misconception that our grandmother, Joanna, was accused of being a witch. She was not formally accused ever, but she was named in 1692, long after her death. 
    The misconception originated circa 1670 when Reverend Thomas Gilbert of Topsfield was accused of being drunk before Sunday service, during Sunday service, and at the dinner following the Sunday service. Actually, he was so late to service that morning that some congregants actually left, but those who stayed were in for quite a show. Thomas was seen falling as he entered the building, slurring his words, and messing with the order of the service so that Isaac Cummings stood up and declared, "Stop. You are out of order and dangerously close to blaspheming the Lord's name." Thomas told Isaac to zip it and sit down. Things got so wild that Thomas quit his ministry at Topsfield right then and stormed out of the building, only to return three weeks later.
    If that wasn't enough, there was a dinner that same afternoon after the fiasco at the parsonage, where many accused the minister of swigging too generously from the communion cup he shared with the diners, one of whom was Joanna Towne. Joanna, however, was the only person in attendance at that dinner who did not notice any odd behavior displayed by Thomas, nor did she think that he drank too much from the cup.
    When this matter eventually went to court, Joanna proclaimed that everyone else was wrong. According to Joanna, Thomas ate and drank in moderation that day, and he was fully aware of his behavior. 
    Fast forward to 1692, 10 years after Joanna died. John and Hannah Putnam's infant daughter became sick and died within two days. Sadly, the child died such a violent death, as John Putnam said, it was enough to pierce a stony heart. According to a prior conversation with his cousin-in-law, Ann Putnam, Sr. regarding Joanna Towne's daughters, he said that the apples didn't fall far from the trees. John had heard that rumors that Rebecca Nurse's and Mary Esty's mother was a witch. After all, it was a common belief that witchcraft was passed from mothers to their daughters. John concluded that since Rebecca and Mary's specters could not kill him, they killed his child. 
    The Putnams were distant cousins to the Goulds, who were present at that service and dinner at Topsfield in 1670. Ensign John Gould, who filed the complaint on behalf of his wife against Thomas Gilbert, does not mention Joanna Towne in his complaint, though she offers the deposition in defense of Thomas. So I can only speculate that the gossip about Joanna's role traveled via the Gould family members, most likely those female family members, to their Putnam cousins who lived five miles south in Salem Village. I imagine these families visited from time to time, therefore sharing some of the gossip from their towns. 
    Thank you.
     
    [01:12:42] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary. 
    [01:12:44] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:13:04] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Today is July 20th. It is the day after the 331st anniversary of the hanging of five innocent alleged witches in Salem, Massachusetts on July 19th, 1692. The mother of Dorothy Good, Sarah Good, was among them, along with Sarah Wildes, Susannah Martin, Elizabeth How, and Rebecca Nurse. Rebecca, an accused elderly woman, was examined the same day Dorothy was examined.
    The Rebecca Nurse Homestead Facebook page posted yesterday, quote, "accounts say that Rebecca Nurse was seen to be praying while on the cart and right before execution, only stopping to look at her children and family in the crowd. Sarah Good would have none of that. When they arrived at the hill, Reverend Noyes urged her to confess so she would at least not die a liar. She denied the guilt. Noyes said he knew she was a witch. 'You are a liar,' she snapped. 'I am no more a witch than you are a wizard, and if you take away my life, God will give you blood to drink.' This curse was based loosely on a verse in Revelation. 
    What happened to these accused witches of the past is not unlike what is happening today. What you learned about Dorothy's experience as a four-year-old and the outcome of her adult life is the same story we hear today. Right now, people are targeted and hunted just like the Goods. They're believed to have used sorcery or evil to cause misfortune to their family, neighbors, or community. In many, many countries today, misfortunes like dangerous weather and unexplained or even everyday common sickness or death are still believed to be caused by humans doing supernatural harm.
    In Ghana, women are hunted as witches, and thousands of them are now in refugee camps. These refugee camps are known as witch camps. The women sent away to them are alleged witches. They're innocent. They are not witches. These are not witch camps. These are refuge camps loaded with forgotten women, women who have not forgotten the life they were torn from, women who carry the visible scars and damage on their bodies from the attacks they endured. They survived brutal attacks, but now they are set aside. Their existence is buried in the past that they were plucked from. They're barely surviving. Many of them do not survive. 
    Multitudes of women do not supernaturally cause mischief and misfortune. Once a person, once a child, is targeted as a witch, their old life is over. Nothing is ever the same for them again, the family is never whole, they are no longer in their home with their family unit living life as it was prior to the accusations. Most often, extended family is no longer close. Family is scattered. 
    Awareness of the violent, modern witch Hunts against alleged witches is increasing across the world. You are aware and can take action, share the information, make a financial contribution to an advocacy organization. International media, organizations, governments, and individuals are taking action and educating about it directly in the affected communities. In Africa, India, Melanesia, and in additional affected places, many advocates are risking their lives to educate, rescue, intervene, and rehabilitate victims in the communities gripped by harmful practices and violence due to sorcery fear or witchcraft fear.
    The United Nations Human Rights Council is acknowledging the crisis and urging additional efforts by all stakeholders. We are all stakeholders in efforts to stop these witch attacks and abuse crimes against men, women, and children. When you see it in the news, read about it and share it. Educate yourself and others. 
    Next week, you'll hear from advocate and professor Miranda Forsyth, director of the working committee of The International Network Against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices. Expect to hear specific ways many organized groups of people are working as advocates. Learn about Papua New Guinea's action plan for sorcery accusation-related violence. Expect to hear specific ways you can start advocating. You do not have to wait to get involved. It is everybody's business to take a stand against the violence humans endure due to the supernatural fears of other humans. 
    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast supports the global efforts to end modern witch hunts. Get involved. Financially support our nonprofit initiatives to educate and intervene. Visit endwitchhunts.org to make a tax-deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or by subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast super listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com. Keep our t-shirts, available on zazzle.com, in mind when you start to get excited about Halloween 2023, and buy some fun wear. Sport one of our awesome shirts, and introduce people to the podcast or one of our projects by leaving your house looking cool. 
     
    [01:17:57] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:17:59] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:18:01] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:18:06] Sarah Jack: Thank you for joining us every week for our great episodes.
    [01:18:10] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:18:12] Sarah Jack: Don't miss one. Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:18:16] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends.
    [01:18:19] Sarah Jack: Please support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit us at endwitchhunts.org to learn what we're doing.
    [01:18:26] Josh Hutchinson: And please rate and review wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:18:32] Sarah Jack: Thank you.
    [01:18:34] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow. 
    
  • Karin Helmstaedt on Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Learn about witch trials in the Holy Roman Empire and the deadly witch hunts occurring today. We interview Deutsche Welle presenter Karin Helmstaedt about her documentary, “Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past,” which you can watch on YouTube. Karin tells us about her ancestors burned as witches in Winningen, Germany, and we learn nuances of the trials in that area. We discuss the current global crisis of violence against persons accused of witchcraft and talk about the many similarities between witch hunts across time and space. We also connect historical social injustices to our advocacy questions: Why do we hunt witches? How do we hunt witches? How do we stop hunting witches?
    Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past
    Shop Our Book Shop
    Sign up as a Super Listener
    Buy Witch Trial Merch
    Buy Podcast Merch
    thoushaltnotsuffer.com
    endwitchhunts.org
    Discord
    Twitter
    Facebook
    Instagram

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:26] Josh Hutchinson: In this episode, we speak with journalist Karin Helmstaedt about her documentary, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past, which you can watch on YouTube.
    [00:00:37] Sarah Jack: The video covers European witch hunts of the past, as well as the modern global crisis of attacks on persons accused of witchcraft.
    [00:00:44] Josh Hutchinson: Check the video out after you listen to this episode. The link is in the show description.
    [00:00:49] Sarah Jack: Karin told us about her ancestors accused of witchcraft in what is now Germany.
    [00:00:53] Josh Hutchinson: And we spoke of our ancestors accused in New England.
    [00:00:57] Sarah Jack: We talked about why women are more likely to be accused of witchcraft.
    [00:01:01] Josh Hutchinson: And covered other similarities between witch hunts across time and space.
    [00:01:05] Sarah Jack: The sheer number of attacks occurring today is eye-opening.
    [00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: Historian Wolfgang Behringer says there are now more people dying in witch hunts than ever before.
    [00:01:16] Sarah Jack: Tanzania alone has lost upwards of 30,000 people to witch-hunts since independence in 1961.
    [00:01:23] Josh Hutchinson: And these attacks are happening in over 60 nations today.
    [00:01:28] Sarah Jack: Affecting hundreds of thousands of people every year with psychological and physical violence that leads to neglect, displacement, homelessness, physical disability, and even death.
    [00:01:38] Josh Hutchinson: What lessons can we learn from past witch hunts?
    [00:01:41] Sarah Jack: And how can we apply those lessons today?
    [00:01:44] Josh Hutchinson: Witch hunts are not just a dark chapter from the past.
    [00:01:47] Sarah Jack: Here is Karin Helmstaedt, a Canadian born journalist, moderator, and TV host based in Berlin, Germany. She studied in Toronto, Montreal, and Paris, and embarked on her journalistic career in sports, writing for newspapers and magazines before making the move into broadcasting. Since 1999, she's been one of the most constant faces on Germany's foreign broadcaster, Deutsche Welle, presenting a number of news and culture magazine formats. She currently co-hosts DW's Arts and Culture News in English. Fluent in three languages, Karin is also a sought after moderator and consultant for conferences and events around Europe, with experience in a broad range of sectors, including communications, food and agriculture, and rail transport. 
    [00:02:28] Josh Hutchinson: We appreciate your film, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past. We've watched that several times and are so appreciative that you're drawing attention to the subject. Can you tell our listeners about your film?
    [00:02:45] Karin Helmstaedt: Yes, I can. Thank you for having me. It started off as an idea for a format that we developed at my network where I am currently working, Deutsche Welle. And I had this idea in my head for a very long time and didn't really know how I was going to approach it, because I knew that we had an ancestor in our family who had been burned as a witch.
    And it seemed to me that I hadn't seen any material done on witch hunts in the time that I've been at Deutsche Welle, which is really quite a long time. So I pitched the project, and it was accepted and got started with researching the witch hunts in Germany and of course in this particular community where my ancestor was.
    And I tracked down a historian who, Walter Rummel, who is just amazing because it was really just like a meeting of the minds because he did his PhD on the witch trials in that entire area of southwestern Germany. And there were a lot of them right along the Mosel River, and it was so interesting because when I called him and asked him and told him that I had this ancestor and her name was Margarethe Kröber, he was totally excited because he knew exactly who I was talking about, and he had literally gone through all of the witch trials in sort of several communities in a relatively large radius around that area and had analyzed them in terms sociologically and looking at what had motivated all of these particular cases. And so I was able to do a lot of research, a lot of really specific research with him into her case.
    And during that, I discovered, of course, that there were all kinds of other relatives, if you will. They were more distant relatives, perhaps. She's like a direct line and a kind of a great grandmother, 11 generations back, that would be. But I discovered all of these other people who had been affected and of course the entire families, and the connections that I got from Walter were a couple of other historians, Rita Voltmer being a very important one, but Wolfgang Behringer also, who was really key in alerting me to the fact that there were still witch hunts going on today. And so that in the end ended up being the arc of the story for the film.
    And that's how I ended up including the chapter on modern witch hunts and the things that are going on in places like Africa and Papua New Guinea and many places in southern South Asia and also in Latin America. We couldn't fit it all in, obviously, to the film, but we had to do a bit of a bit of a sorting out.
    But that's essentially how the film came to be. And we're very happy with it. I worked on it with a colleague of mine called Ulrike Sommer is her name, and we spent a lot of time really going through it all with a fine tooth comb and condensing, condensing, because of course we didn't have hours and hours that we could fill, but we're very happy with the result. We're very, certainly, very happy with the response.
    [00:05:55] Sarah Jack: It's been a great response. What would you like us to know about her? And I'm curious about how you knew about her history.
    [00:06:04] Karin Helmstaedt: That's an interesting story, because when I was a young teenager, I came to Germany for the first time with my family. My father is from East Germany originally and married my mom who's Canadian. So we, I grew up in Canada, but we came to Europe to visit for the first time and were visiting relatives of his mother down in the Rhein -Mosel area.
    And we visited this one aunt of his, and he told her I guess, that we were going to drive through Winningen and retrace some steps. I think there are some grave sites there as well. I don't remember those very well, because what stuck out for me was that, when this aunt said, "if you're going to Winningen, you have to visit the Hexenstein."
    And my father said, "oh, what's that?" And so he told me this when we got into the car, and of course I was 14 years old and know I was very impressionable. And the idea that we had a witch in the family, this was absolutely amazing to me. And we went to this monument, which of course is featured in the film. It's the oldest, I now know, the oldest monument to persecuted witches in Germany. It was erected in about 1925, I think. And her name is right on there. And it was just a really, it made a huge impression on me, this idea that somebody in our family all these hundreds of years ago had suffered this fate and was actually memorialized on this stone.
    It's like an obelisk, and it never left me. And it was a story that I put in on my back burner, for many years. I probably should have done something about it earlier, but you know how life is, you think things happen, and you have kids, and you move, and I ended up moving to Europe, and yeah, eventually just decided, it was also interesting because it was during the pandemic that I decided I've gotta tackle this story. I've gotta do something and make use of this time and possibly start thinking about actually doing something about this story. So that's how it started. It really goes decades back.
    [00:08:02] Josh Hutchinson: That reminds me so much of my own story of how I got interested in the witch trials, because my grandfather was from Danvers, Massachusetts, which used to be Salem Village, and there is the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, the property of one of the well-known victims of the Salem Witch Trials. And at that property there's a monument to her and there's also a monument to people who defended her, and my ancestor, Joseph Hutchinson, is on that monument, but the way they spelled the name, it's J O S apostrophe H, so it looks like it says Josh Hutchinson, which of course is my own name.
    [00:08:52] Karin Helmstaedt: It is your own name.
    [00:08:53] Josh Hutchinson: I saw that in stone at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, and I've just been fascinated with the witch trials since then.
    [00:09:01] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, it's an interesting thing to look at a kind of a legacy like that. And interestingly enough, when I went to Winningen and started the research, I asked about that monument. There's very little known about the motivation for having put it up or who exactly put it up. I couldn't find an awful lot of information about that. There are mistakes on it as well. It's not complete. And as I discovered, the mother of my ancestor was actually the very first woman burnt as a witch in Winningen, so the whole thing started with her, and the date of her execution is actually wrong, as well, if you look into all of the trial records.
    So Walter Rummel ended up being really helpful to me because I bought, I, I found an old secondhand copy. I searched and searched on Amazon and found an old secondhand copy of his thesis, which is a book, and spent ages reading it, and just my jaw just kept dropping further and further, and I would get on the phone to my dad and say, "you have no idea how many people." Really quite a lot of people, because interestingly enough, of her generation, Margarethe's generation, not only she was accused of witchcraft, but also her cousin, as I say her mother already was killed 11 years before, her aunt, so the mother's sister, and then every single one of her brothers and sister-in-law. So in other words of that one particular branch of the Kröber family, they executed all the spouses. So that's interesting and we can talk a little bit more about why these things happened and what Walter Rummel was able to tell me, because even he found that pretty extraordinary that a family was so taken to the cleaners, as it were, in in that sense.
    [00:10:52] Sarah Jack: Yeah. Do you wanna speak more about that right now?
    [00:10:55] Karin Helmstaedt: It's interesting, because the historians that I spoke to, so Rita and Wolfgang and Walter, and I spent really a long time talking to all three of them. The belief is generally accepted that all of the people who were burned for witchcraft or accused of witchcraft were healers and wise women and cunning women, midwives, herbalists, all that kind of thing.
    And so that was, of course, one of my first questions when I was talking to them. And they told me that, based on their research, and this doesn't necessarily have to be the case for everywhere else, like, for instance, in places like Scotland or in places like some of the eastern European countries, but certainly in that area of Germany, and in their experience and their analyses of the trial records, which are copious in many regions, in certain regions of Germany, and in this one in particular, there's hardly a midwife to be found. That's really not the case for any of these victims. 
    So what was at work was social ladder climbing, if you will. There were sort of tiers of society, and there were levels of society that essentially wanted to take out slightly more powerful or wealthy individuals. But she came from quite a wealthy winemaking family and married into my father's mother's family, so the, that's where the Kröber name comes from. And that her husband was a judge, and he was one of a long line of judges. And afterwards his son became a judge. And a lot of these professions seemed for a while to be handed down. So you were in a bit of a social set, and it seems that another branch of his own family was not happy with the amount of wealth, I suppose, that was accumulated, the amount of influence that they had in the town, and I think it was very much a tactic to go after these men by literally taking out their wives, accusing their wives of witchcraft. And there was also the one man involved, as well, and he was one of the wealthiest people in the town at the time.
    [00:13:15] Josh Hutchinson: And you share in the film that women were about 80% of the victims in the European witch hunts and that they continue to be targeted today, as predominantly women are accused of witchcraft. Why do you think that is that women are more likely to be accused of witchcraft?
    [00:13:38] Karin Helmstaedt: That's also one of these interesting questions that I think obviously there is the misogynistic element, the fact that women had a lesser position in society at the time, and there were reasons to want to get rid of women, to get rid of uncomfortable women. But it's, I guess what was very interesting to me was to learn just how many men had been involved, and it was almost always a question of wanting to usurp their influence and their power and their wealth. With the women, it's tricky, I think. The misogynist element is there, and it was possibly very much sparked by some of those early texts by people like Heinrich Kramer, the Malleus Maleficarum, which I mentioned also in the documentary.
    These seminal texts that described what a witch was about gave rise to a lot of the imagery that was created around witches and witchcraft. And those were primarily female, simply because someone like Heinrich Kramer actually had a real bone to pick with women. He was somebody who had tried to go after a woman in Austria for witchcraft, and I think that effort was foiled, actually. And then he left Austria and wrote that book, and a lot of the trouble started there. There was trouble, there were ideas of witchcraft that had already been created by the church, but he really crystallized a lot of that.
    And great levels of description such that then the art world, and the publication of that book actually coincided also with the invention of the printing press, pretty close together, such that these texts, but also the ideas that were then able to fuel an artist's imagination, could spread a lot faster.
    And I think that's how the ideas of female evil and the ability of women to be closer to the devil and their tendencies to wanna be closer to the devil, I think that really took off in the imagination of a lot of people at the time.
     It's interesting. I guess one of the biggest surprises for me also was, there were several things that were surprising. First of all, you're surprised to hear that actually it wasn't midwives and herbalists and these wise women. Second thing was that men were involved and so that was interesting.
    But the really shocking thing to me was that basically half, over a third to half of the witches, of the people who were executed as witches, in the entire 300 years of the great European witch hunts happened in the German-speaking area. That is something really interesting and makes the whole thing incredibly complex, because you're looking at an area of the map, the Holy Roman Empire it was at the time, which was much, much bigger than modern day Germany, so that included areas of Northern Italy and actually parts of France. It also included Austria and Switzerland, the whole German speaking area. It's really shocking to think that those numbers have been, well, largely ignored for a very long time. People haven't really paid attention to that. 
    You think back to a number of the traumatic things that were happening in that part of the world at the time. And my ancestor was killed in the midst of the 30 Years War, which was just devastating and there are so many factors that influence the number of witch Hunts in Germany. That it, we probably need three hours of a podcast to go through the history. But one of the things that was so influential was climate, and this was also complete news to me. There was a phenomenon called the Little Ice Age that was going on in much of northern Europe for an incredible amount of time, literally from the 14th century all the way into the mid 19th century. That there was a very stark cooling and a lot of years of really poor harvests.
    And this climate element had a huge impact on Germany, first of all, because it's in Northern Europe, but Germany's also landlocked. Just in terms of its geographical positioning, it was really hard hit by that phenomenon, by the Little Ice Age and unable to, it didn't have sea access to mean that it could necessarily get grain and get supplies from elsewhere very easily.
    So people were really down and out, suffering great hardship at the hands of these marauding armies, the Swedes and the French, and everybody who was marching back and forth over their territory during the 30 Years War. And the other thing that I learned from Wolfgang Behringer. Wolfgang Behringer was the first one to actually do this analysis of climate and come up with this theory that actually of the 300 years of European witch hunts, it went in cycles, and you had three waves, actually. And those three waves are, interestingly enough, always about a, an entire lifetime. I guess if you look at a at the length of a long lifetime, 70 to 80 years, and every 70 to 80 years things would pick up again until they finally, eventually completely died down.
     It's very interesting that climate affected things and forms of settlement, according to Wolfgang Behringer, were also very important. So for instance, there were hardly any witch hunts in places that were extremely rural, this is in Germany, anyway, or in nomadic peoples. They tended to concentrate in places where people are in a village situation and where people are eventually, as in Germany, getting crowded.
    That's the other thing about Germany is that it's actually always had a lot of people in a relatively small geographic space. So when you end up with these phenomena of towns building up and people are sitting on top of one another, that's when you get a lot of the comparing what you have with what I have and a lot of these developments of social situations that can possibly be a fertile ground then for that kind of, and then the weather doesn't work and then the harvest fails and then somebody dies and then there are all these reasons, the same reasons that we see in the modern witch hunts today.
    The things that are happening in Africa, for instance, it's the same kinds of patterns that reproduce themselves. So it's always a question of forms of community and whether those forms, whether they're somebody is trying to get an advantage. And unfortunately we seem to repeatedly tend to do that.
    [00:20:31] Sarah Jack: There's so many striking comparisons, and one of the things that you said a few minutes ago really made me think of the modern was when you talked about the multitude of victims in the German history, that we don't really fathom it. People don't really talk about it, understand it, and that is part of with the modern. People don't have a concept of how rampant it is for the modern victims.
    [00:20:58] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, it was upwards of 25,000 people in Germany, which is just a staggering number really when you consider that it's between 50 and 60,000 all told. So that's including places like Iceland, Norway, Sweden, all of the other countries where witch hunts did happen. 25,000 people. 
    And I really think something really interesting happened. Once the film was online and people were watching it, people started responding, I had a number of really interesting responses from women in Germany who said, "why haven't we looked into this more deeply in terms of what this can mean or has meant or means continually for female identity in Germany? How many cases of generational trauma are there that have never been considered?"
    And when you look at some of the work that's been done in Scotland, also, for instance, by the Witches of Scotland, Claire Mitchell and Zoe Venditozzi, who've been doing that fantastic campaign up there. They've looked into a lot of the cases in Scotland and actually talked to social scientists who have indicated that when you take a family like that, you completely snuff out their wealth, usurp their fields and their lands and possibly even their livelihoods. You completely demote that family. That family has to start again from zero, and possibly those families actually never get back to the position that they had or never get back to the actual. It has a knock on effect or a domino effect, if you will, very far down the line in generations.
    That was something that was really interesting to me, because I think it's interesting to look at what people have said, and I've had a lot of response from people who have, like yourself, Josh, who have some relative that was affected in the Salem Witch Trials or in Connecticut or in Scotland or in England, and the ideas are really so multifaceted in terms of how these particular tragedies have affected the different families. The stories are as long as my arm, the list it's amazing. So I think every case is individual and every family is individual and a lot of these communities have had different ways of dealing with things.
    Some of them had just a few families affected. But a town like Winningen, where my ancestor came from, we're looking at between 160, 200 people at the time. 21 people were killed, 24 were accused, so three managed to get off, which was also remarkable, but only happened towards the end of things. When you consider the number of families that were affected then, those 21 people that got lost, and you look at that one branch of my family where literally every spouse was knocked off and those people had to go on and very often married again. But my ancestor actually already had two children, so those two children also they lost their mother. They were six and three at the time. And that was also a really interesting thing, even when I was researching with Walter, because he was pretty much also thinking that it was mostly older women. It was mostly older women who actually had some status, possibly widowed. And here was my ancestor, a mother of two boys, six and three years old. So there were a lot of these stereotypes that just disappeared through the detailing of this story.
    [00:24:32] Sarah Jack: I really loved that you were able to do that with your narrative.
    [00:24:37] Karin Helmstaedt: It was very lucky. And again, it's because of this, of the fantastic treasure trove of trial records that are available for that area. It's not the case everywhere. It's, for instance, in France, it's very interesting. A lot of stuff did happen in France, but there's relatively speaking, little documentation about it. I've talked at length with Rita Voltmer about that. When you don't have that documentation, then you really are guessing. You're taking, records come from everywhere. You're looking at diaries, you're looking at, Walter was able to analyze, for instance, all of the receipts from the time, for instance.
    One of the stories that was really shocking in the case of my ancestor is she was actually, I had to fudge this a little bit in the film, because she was actually killed on the same day as another woman. There were two women killed on the same day, and they had an enormous party after that was over, and it's detailed. It's absolutely crazy the amount of detail that exists about that particular. It was like a bonfire. You've got two women literally burning on this pyre, and they had all kinds of wine, and there were local, what would you call them, restaurateur, who just made a killing on this kind of thing. And that's all documented that these things happened. 
    It was absolutely shocking that so much was available, and yet when you see how much is available, for instance, another really interesting detail of the trials, the trial records in that area, is that most of them were written for about 15 to 20 years. They were written by one scribe. It's the same handwriting over and over again. And this guy, I don't exactly know where he lived. I did figure out what his name is, but his handwriting, very, very beautiful 17th century script. And you go through pages and pages and pages and pages of this stuff.
    And at one point Walter said to me, this guy, he wrote them all at the time, so he was literally just moving around the communities when a trial came and needed to be protocoled. And we're talking, this guy was present for the torture. He was present for the accusation, for the witch commission basically accusing the women, and then they were tortured, and then they were executed. So there were all these phases, and this is, it's all documented like a diary. But you didn't necessarily have that wealth of information in other places.
    [00:27:07] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, there's so many parallels that I know our listeners who are familiar with witch trials in other areas will pick up on. On the documentation, Salem is well documented, but the other New England witch trials are not.
    You have a lot of the same things. The ratio of men to women is about the same. It's something like 80 to 85% were women in New England. Salem was a little bit heavier with the men. There was maybe a quarter of the victims were men. But you have the same things going on with the Little Ice Age, the crop failures, the storms. You have the situation where people believe it's the midwives and healers, but it really wasn't. You have warfare or tension as if war is coming played into it, the local economics played into it. In Salem, overcrowding played a role, because there were refugees from warfare that came into Essex County, where Salem was the seat. And so there were a lot of extra people vying for resources, as well. So there's really just, it's remarkable how the European, New England, and modern-day witch trials, it flows. 
    [00:28:35] Karin Helmstaedt: There's so much. Yeah. That's so interesting what you said about the overcrowding, and the other thing that comes into it, of course, is religion. And another really surprising thing that I discovered, because everybody thinks the Catholic Church was the main motor of the whole thing, and Walter and Wolfgang Behringer basically told me that was not necessarily the case in this area. And interestingly enough, that particular community, Winningen, was a Protestant community. So we're talking, we're post reformation now, and the reformation happened in, I guess it was 1517, it's when it started. Martin Luther was actually quite keen or quite a sort of an encourager of witch hunts. There wasn't necessarily on our side in that sense. 
    But you had this Protestant community surrounded by other Catholic communities, and then you had a kind of a bit of a pressure cooker situation that developed because there used to be, and I forget what the word was for them in German now, but there used to be basically sort of seers who would go around to the Protestant communities and check to make sure that everybody was behaving properly and minding the new doctrine and not stepping astray with all of the ritualization of the Catholic religion was left behind by the Protestants, so they were really very strict, and there really was a kind of a situation that developed where they felt they had to be the more chaste community, the community that was more on the ball, that was paying attention to all of this possible influence of the devil. And it turns out that some, many Protestant communities were actually more zealous in going after people for witchcraft than Catholic ones, which is also a little bit counter to what we tend to hear and believe. But it's interesting that France, which is a predominantly Catholic country, Portugal, Spain, they had much lower incidents of witch trials than Germany did. Although Germany had a lot of Roman Catholicism still at the time. Obviously there was huge tension with the Reformation and then the Counter Reformation. 
    But even if you look, for instance, in the difference between Scotland and Ireland. Scotland was predominantly Protestant, and the witch trials there were really fired on by King James VI. And in Ireland, where they were Catholic, I think there were three or four victims, like you can count them on one hand. So that's a really interesting thing to look at. It's really interesting to look at those numbers and to look at the fact that up in Sweden, they were also actually Protestant, I think in the Norwegian area, as well, where witch trials happened. A lot of the things that you think you knew, or that I thought I knew and many people thought they knew are not necessarily the case.
    And yet these, all these parallels exist. And the one thing that I remember Rita Voltmer saying to me that she couldn't believe that people were still thinking that it was midwives and herbalists, because there really is so much evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, there probably are a few communities where that, those kind of women did end up in difficult straits, as well.
    You can never blanket statement anything about it, because Europe is complicated at best today, and it certainly was complicated back then. 
    [00:32:03] Josh Hutchinson: This idea of a religious cleansing or purification that you bring up, I think is important in the European witch trials. We spoke with Mary W. Craig about Scotland, and when the Kirk became Protestant, they were getting rid of the old Catholic rituals, and they also came down harsh on people who had the still pre-Catholic mythology and what they termed to be superstitious beliefs.
    So it was really the heavily Protestant areas that were seeking this cleansing. And there were lower incidents in like the Highlands and Islands, which were still more Catholic. The Kirk didn't have as much control there. 
    [00:32:55] Karin Helmstaedt: It is super interesting and the other thing that comes to my mind when you talk about that with sort of the religious tension is, and what had a huge effect on the German, the prevalence in Germany, is the governance structure as well. So the governance structure in the Holy Roman Empire was incredibly fragmented. You had all these little kingdoms and fiefdoms and principalities, and some of them in the area that we're talking about with my ancestor were actually governed by religious figures. And in this particular case, there was one Catholic and one Protestant. It was actually a dual influence that was going on there.
    And when you had that kind of fragmented governance from the top, what it allowed was less centralization in terms of the laws. And what happened was that you ended up having these situations like a poor harvest or something terrible has happened in a community. And it was the people, it was actually usually a bit of a grassroots movement that decided this person is a witch or that person is dangerous for our community, let's go after them. And the pressure from the bottom was difficult to counter for these sort of fragmented governance structures. They couldn't necessarily control all of these small communities, which is why you had many cases of localized witch trials in this area around the Mosel, and you can just go through all those communities, and there were witch trials everywhere.
    [00:34:34] Josh Hutchinson: That's actually another theme that I've noticed in England and New England, that witch trials occurred largely at times when the government had less control. In England, you have the Matthew Hopkins witch hunt, and that occurred during the civil wars, when Parliament and the King were vying for power, and in Connecticut, the colony of Connecticut started witch hunting in 1647. They didn't get a charter from the king to be a colony until 1662, which is when the executions ended before their governor returned with the charter in 1663, they had the last execution in Connecticut, and then Salem also, Massachusetts, the king had revoked their charter, and they just received a new charter in the year 1692, so there was all this weaker central government.
    [00:35:37] Karin Helmstaedt: It's interesting that, I mentioned France earlier, and France had a very centralized system, and that meant, for instance, that if you were somewhere in the middle of the country and decided you wanted to accuse your neighbor of being a witch, you ended up having to take that case to Paris and prove it.
    And that centralized system alone was what meant that it was much, much harder to actually bring people to a death sentence for witchcraft in France than it was in Germany. In Germany, you ended up having these local witch commissions, which were severely under pressure by their local populations, and with all of the other motors that were happening, the somebody wanting to gain an advantage here or there, and and that's why a lot of real chaos happened, certainly in that period between 1630. 
    And there's another community in Germany the city of Bamberg, you might have heard of, is down in Bavaria or in Northern Bavaria. And it was just decimated back around the same time, between 1628 and 1632, I think. So again, right smack in the middle of the 30 Years War, and I think over a thousand people were burnt there. And you ended up literally with, I think it was Walter who quoted one of the, there were the writings of some religious man, and I should figure out exactly who that was, that I can quote it properly, but there was, these religious eminences would travel through the countryside. And this one made an observation that the entire countryside was literally smoking pyres. And that's a very powerful and brutal image, and that's what things pretty much looked like around that time. Bamberg is also a very interesting place to visit if you are interested in witch trials, just because it also has a very tragic legacy.
    [00:37:37] Josh Hutchinson: I used to live pretty close to there in Schweinfurt.
    [00:37:41] Karin Helmstaedt: Oh.
    [00:37:41] Josh Hutchinson: My dad was in the Army, so I was a child, but yeah, we were in that region.
    [00:37:47] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah. Beautiful area.
    [00:37:48] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yeah. Gorgeous. I loved it.
    [00:37:51] Sarah Jack: Could you tell us what the witch commission was?
    [00:37:54] Karin Helmstaedt: It was basically a group of people who were local magistrates, but not necessarily all, groups of local men who had the backing of the local governance, and there were usually about five or six of them that would come together and then create a bit of a power node within the community. And once you got denounced to them, then you had to prove your innocence. 
    And the interesting thing with the trials, the way they happened in this area of Germany is that they insisted on a confession. You deny that you're a witch, it's not a confession. And so torture was used in order to extract that confession. And once the confession came, then you had admitted you were a witch. You had lied under duress, under the duress of torture, but you were at least able to be executed and have your soul go to heaven. So the whole religious element came into play there, as well, that you had to be exonerated in a religious sense. You had to be cleansed. And that's of course why the bodies were burnt.
    It's interesting that people also always think that witches were burned at the stake. They weren't necessarily in in a lot of places. As in Salem, a lot of people were hanged. In Germany, what happened, there were people who were burnt alive, but in this particular community, and with my ancestor, they beheaded them first and then actually just burnt the bodies. But the idea of burning the bodies was to completely cleanse this mortal shell that had been sullied by the devil.
    [00:39:48] Sarah Jack: What did the shaving, how did that play into that? Was that part of the cleansing steps or was it humiliation?
    [00:39:56] Karin Helmstaedt: That was, yeah, exactly. That was something that happened during the interrogations. And they did in Germany what they called a peinliche befragung, which is essentially equivalent to a torture session. So it's an interrogation that becomes extremely physical and involves a lot of duress for the victims, and there were a lot of things that they employed. For instance, sleep deprivation was probably the simplest and one of the most perfidious techniques, simply because of course, once people had been deprived of sleep long enough and physically harmed so much, then eventually you're willing to admit anything just to make it stop, just to make this agony stop.
    But the shaving was for two reasons. One, it was humiliation, especially with the men. The men were shaved completely, beards were completely taken off. But it was also with the idea of being able to locate this devil's mark, which at the time they believed every witch would have. You were pretty unlucky if you had something like a large, conspicuous mole or any kind of conspicuous birthmark. Something like that, of course, could be construed as something like that, and that's one of the reasons that they shaved their bodies as completely as possible. But it definitely also had a, an element of humiliation.
    [00:41:11] Josh Hutchinson: And two of those themes you just spoke to are also present in the modern day witch hunts. In your documentary, you spoke with the woman who was shaved, and you showed images of someone who had been burned. And recently in Nigeria, a woman was burned alive, and that's garnered a lot of attention.
    [00:41:39] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah. We haven't talked about Leo Igwe yet, have we? And Leo is someone I discovered really on the basis of the fact that I had learned this from Wolfgang Behringer that there were so many witch trials going on in the modern world, which of course, if you haven't been paying attention to that, it's amazing how many people still comment after watching the film that they had no idea that this was going on.
    Researching further, I found Leo Igwe and talked to him, and he has this advocacy group, the Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and the tales that he can tell will just curl your hair. It's happening all over the place in multiple countries in Africa. And it's interesting that, from what I understand, it isn't necessarily there always something where the communities themselves are using the word witch. That's an English word that we've imposed upon it, but the mechanism is the same. Something has happened in the community. Somebody needs to be scapegoated, and it ends up being a woman or an older person, who for some reason is either easy to get rid of, and possibly there's something to be gained by getting rid of that person.
    The mechanisms are all the same, but they're not necessarily being called witches. They are being accused also even by local healer people who decide, okay, let's get this person outta the way. So there's a lot of, I think it's just the same societal mechanisms that are happening there, and we call it witch trials, but it's not necessarily how those communities are understanding it with that particular word.
    [00:43:28] Sarah Jack: They're finding the culprits of misfortunes and those culprits are using powers outside of natural phenomenon to influence.
    [00:43:38] Karin Helmstaedt: What is going on in so many places in Africa, and so many of the cases that Leo Igwe is dealing with, is just utterly brutal situations, what we showed in our film, the women being banished or having to literally escape to these witch camps and witch villages, which are places that are essentially just a refuge for women who can no longer be a part of their family. They can no longer be a part of their community. It's really tragic. 
    [00:44:07] Sarah Jack: And did you visit a witch camp? I wondered how you got your interviews with those women. They were really powerful interviews.
    [00:44:15] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And I have to do a shout out to Isaac Kaledzi, who's our correspondent in Ghana, and we worked very closely with him, and he was able to travel to Northern Ghana because Gambaga is up in the north. It's quite difficult to access. It's also quite difficult because of the language differences. So he had to find a translator and was able to visit and get that footage for us. So unfortunately I didn't get to visit it myself. On the other hand, it's a pretty tough journey. But Leo Igwe has done field work there, so he's definitely been to a number of those villages.
    [00:44:50] Sarah Jack: Seeing the captured testimony of the women, seeing them visually, knowing what Leo's message has been, and then it just, it was really brought together well, and I think, I just think it's so important for people to hear from those women.
    [00:45:08] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, indeed. They don't get a voice often enough. And I think the idea of what Leo is doing is trying to be able to integrate them back into their communities, that sometimes is successful and oftentimes is not. It's really tough, as well, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of political will to change things. There are even cases in some African countries where they've been wanting to bring witchcraft back into the penal code. It's very difficult conditions of course, because every community is so different. All of the countries they're dealing with multiple languages, traditions, make it extremely difficult to penetrate with one clear message about that kind of thing. And I guess Leo's point is that education is the only hope to change it.
    [00:46:04] Josh Hutchinson: Yes, he's working on his critical thinking initiative, which I think will be very helpful. But in the documentary, Wolfgang Behringer has some very eye-opening quotes about the scale of witch persecutions today. He says that there are more witch hunts happening today than there were in the European witch trials.
    And I'd noticed some more parallels there. You were talking about the witch persecutions in Africa and Asia, and right now we're experiencing climate change. There's famine, there's large number of natural disasters occurring. And that rang a bell with what you're speaking to. Now it's the heat and the storms becoming a problem, where before it was the cold, but it's draining resources and pushing people to great lengths to secure their food. 
    [00:47:09] Karin Helmstaedt: People need a reason to, they have to understand, find a way to understand what's happening. And I know that with the communities that Leo is in contact with, a lot of those communities are not, they're very rural, and there's not necessarily a lot of formal education. And as long as you've got traditional beliefs in magic and superstition, and as long as those kinds of things are there, in the absence of widespread formal education, that sort of pushes that stuff off in, into the realm of of superstition where it belongs and not actual crime, then yeah, he's up against. It's I guess we can't talk about it enough because we're only gonna make a dent at this point, but a dent is a dent. You have to start somewhere. He's certainly doing a lot of good work.
    [00:48:06] Josh Hutchinson: Oh, he definitely is. I also have noticed that there's a lot of religious conflict in many of the areas that are hotspots today. Nigeria, I know, is a very divided country religiously. In Papua New Guinea, we've read about intertribal conflict. So these other tensions are also happening as well as the economic pressure.
    [00:48:34] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And I remember when I was talking to Wolfgang, it was just, it was so shocking to me, because I think he mentioned that literally just one country like Tanzania had more people killed than, more than 50,000, which would pretty much totals what happened in the 300 years in Europe. And it's almost bizarre to, or impossible to, even conceptualize that. But I think what's going on there is that populations are so much bigger. The population of Nigeria is literally booming. It's the most populous country in Africa, and it's growing all the time. So I think a lot of these issues of resource scarcity and the overcrowding that you mentioned, for instance, that was even happening in a place like Salem, that's gonna be happening very acutely in a lot of places in Africa, just as one example, because of course it's not just there. Yeah. South Asia, there's a lot a lot of problem with that as well.
    [00:49:37] Josh Hutchinson: Speaking to how widespread it is, I even read this morning a case here in the United States, in the city of San Antonio, Texas. Just this morning there was a report from the San Antonio police that a man allegedly shouted, "it's time to kill the witches," and then swung a sword at an acquaintance, cutting his nose. So it's everywhere. It's not Africa, it's not Asia, it's worldwide, the Americas, everywhere.
    [00:50:10] Karin Helmstaedt: To get back to the comments section on the documentary, that has been hugely eye-opening, because a lot of people, a lot of people also in our modern times identify with nature religions like wicca. They identify, that's another point that we touch on is that witchcraft is something that is very attractive in turbulent times, like what we're experiencing. And there has definitely been a bit of a renaissance going on. I would say it's been going on really quite a long time. At least five, if not 10 years. I think if you talk to people who are really in, in the mil ieu they will say that they've been noticing it for a good decade.
    But a lot of the comments that have come in, because we asked for people to share their stories, and people have been very forthcoming with some of the stories that they've shared, and a lot of stories have been of personal persecution or of the fact that I am this way, I practice this, but I'm very quiet about it, because I know that, and a lot of the cases that are mentioned are happening in the United States, and people do not feel safe declaring or openly saying that they practice a religion like that.
    [00:51:28] Josh Hutchinson: And you shared a little about Boris Gershman's study on witchcraft belief and how many people in the world believe in the evil eye and the power to curse someone. And It's widespread. It's every country. The lowest is about one in 10 to upwards of 90% in some nations. In America, one in six people believe that there is this evil witchcraft occurring, not this peaceful, Wicca, nature-based belief. They believe that any form of witchcraft is inherently evil.
    Marker
    [00:52:07] Karin Helmstaedt: Indeed. And that's, I think there's a lot of clashing with the Christian religious beliefs without going too far into sort of saying that it's fundamentalists, but there are very extreme beliefs out there. And I think certainly judging by some of the comments that have arisen, you realize that some have a very black and white view of how these things can be, but happily, a lot of responses have been ones of respect, with a call for respect as well of all of the different interpretations, that witchcraft can take. And they are many.
    [00:52:48] Josh Hutchinson: You talk about how the archetype of the witch, the view of the witch has changed in modern times, and we've seen portrayals in film evolve over time to go along with that. And I wonder if you could speak to any of that.
    [00:53:09] Karin Helmstaedt: Yeah, that's the whole sort of popular culture thing, which I guess, it's interesting. When I started researching this, I said, "okay, I'm gonna do a film on, I'm gonna find out about my ancestor, and then I'm gonna do this arc over to witches and witchcraft in popular culture." And it just goes on and on. You get into a kind of a, I don't even know if you could call it a rabbit hole, because that's too small. It's a more like a spiderweb, and it just goes and goes. It feels like a universe and then another universe. And there's so many different levels to how the witch has been portrayed, first of all, in the initial kind of visualizations of her and how that has influenced art and how that has influenced literature and of course literature, the witch in Hansel and Gretel, all of those Grimm's fairytales and the witches that were really not only incredibly embellished, but also romanticized in the romantic period. There were incredibly, yeah, I guess embellished is the word, sort of portrayals of how a witch could be. 
    It's so interesting, because the witch as a being who is somewhat marginal, as a marginal on, in, in terms of the the core of a village or a society, a small society, is somebody who is an outcast, but she's also feared, she has powers perhaps that people need to be worried about, which is one of the reasons they were persecuted. Those early portrayals of the witch were really something that you could invert and make and claim for yourself, this idea of her being a powerful woman who says my way or the highway of I'm not, I don't need the rest of the community. I can survive on my own and make my own rules. I think that's been a very attractive aspect of the entire concept of witchcraft and the idea that you could possibly then create and influence your own life with magic is something that's different again.
    You've got the Wicked Witch of the East and the Wicked Witch of the West, and then of course the Good Witch. And I think it's interesting because those images have also really influenced how we think about witches and popular culture. And they're everywhere. They're everywhere. And they're quite often extremely compelling individuals and extremely, obviously in many interpretations, very sexy individuals. 
    And I remember when I was a kid, even before I discovered, so I hadn't left Canada for Germany yet, I had not yet made my first foray to Germany or to Europe, so I had no idea that we had a possible ancestor who had been burned as a witch. But I was completely into witch novels and various stories of witchcraft and a lot of that kind of thing simply because they are attractive figures.
    [00:56:10] Sarah Jack: I had that same experience when I was like a tween. I was reading any book that had a witch character in it or if the teens or the neighborhood kids were fearful or looking for somebody or if their home was near graveyard. Like any kind of that I could find like that I was reading it, and then when I was 15 I found out that my ninth great grandma was Rebecca Nurse from the Salem Witch Trials.
    [00:56:39] Karin Helmstaedt: You're both related to the same person. That is so interesting. 
    [00:56:44] Sarah Jack: We're related to her through her sister Mary Esty, who hanged. One of our other colleagues, Mary Bingham, is also a descendant of Mary Esty. And then I also descend from Rebecca, cuz their grandchildren married. But it was a great aunt that had been doing family history, and I, for a long time, alls I did was have this little pedigree on a piece of paper, and it said Rebecca Nurse hanged as a witch in Salem 1692, and I just didn't really do much for a long time on that. I just had no concept of the significance of that. 
    What you said when you spoke to the pop culture and the archetype of the witch, I found so much of what you said very important. So thank you for articulating all of that. And it isn't lost on me that a lot of these countries right now with vulnerable women who are experiencing violence, their culture isn't in a place where western culture is with women in power. They don't have that opportunity to try to seize back power or find an identity like we can here. And I was just thinking about that, how that is definitely, they're in a different, where they fall in the social order, and I mean they have all of that stacked against them now.
    [00:58:05] Karin Helmstaedt: Very interesting. It's interesting that your ancestor was also your ninth grade grandmother. So was mine. It is really interesting. When I of course sent the link to this film to my entire family in Germany, because actually I have a lot of relatives here. And it was so interesting that everybody knows that stone, because we have family reunions traditionally every four years or so of the German side, of my father's mother's side. And it's so interesting that we take a Sunday walk up to that stone. So I've been there many times, and we always talk about it and look at the names on the stone, and there she is. But nobody was very interested in finding out more.
    So in the end, a lot of them were really delighted that I did find out a bit more and that we now know a bit more about her. And she was quite a feisty piece of work, too, which is I think possibly the finding that I was happiest about, because I felt really like I had been able to sketch her personality, figure out exactly what she was like, read some of these really key entries in some of the protocols, the trial protocols. That let me know what kind of a person she was, and she was a person who really spoke her mind, and that also possibly didn't play well for her. But it's nice to think that you've been able to give this person a bit of a profile, a bit of form again, so that people can understand. 
    [00:59:37] Sarah Jack: You, were her voice now. I was really, I at her death, her meekness that she expressed with what she said, that's what Rebecca Nurse was like when she was in court, too. It's very interesting. They were strong women, and these are different women, different cultures, same, not quite the same era, cuz Rebecca was 70ish in the nineties, 1690s. But during her examination, often when she was questioned, she was standing up for herself ,not submitting to what they were saying necessarily. And it sounds like your grandmother was much like that.
    [01:00:17] Karin Helmstaedt: Yes. And at the end, nevertheless was forced to make this admission and this kind of public apology that is, I think, the most heartbreaking moment. When I was reading all of that with Walter, that really hits your solar plexus, because what you realize is that there was no way out of the whole thing but to lie. And yet, for a woman of that level of religious faith and fervor that they had at that time, lying is also a mortal sin. And so you were lying to get out of this unbearable situation, and at the same time, really not even sure that you were gonna make it to the afterlife or that you were gonna be accepted into heaven, because you've just literally told a lie.
    That I think is something that it's very hard for our modern, relatively, areligious existence and state of mind to relate to exactly how, what kind of a conflict that for a person. So that was I think, what really stuck with me, those two aspects for her.
    [01:01:31] Josh Hutchinson: . Women speaking their mind is a persistent theme in witch trials we notice in Salem, the women who spoke back that they didn't believe that the bewitched people were actually bewitched, and they refused to go along with the story that they were told. And then the Witches of Scotland Podcast, Claire and Zoe often talk about the figure of the quarrelsome dame that recurred so often in the records. 
    We're near the end of our time, so I wonder if you have any closing remarks.
    [01:02:12] Karin Helmstaedt: I guess just thank you for having me on the podcast and for sharing your stories with me ,because it's, once again, amazing to me how many parallels there are with these stories and it's great to know that there are other people who are so interested in making that period of history come alive.
    I think it's very important. We're living through a period here in Europe again where we're looking at how the mistakes of history get repeated and repeated, and it's all the easier to repeat them if people don't know what happened. So these are histories, I think the histories of these women that we're talking about, these victims that we're talking about, they're histories that haven't really been given much time, much space, much publication, as we know now, of course, there's all kinds of stories coming out and a lot of written accounts of even the witch trials in England and Scotland. And I'm planning to also write something about Margarethe, as well. You leave something for posterity for your own children and their children, because that stone is still standing on the top of that hill in Winningen, and people have to know what went on there.
    [01:03:20] Sarah Jack: Mary is back with Minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:03:31] Mary Bingham: The fun for me is deep diving into the documents to help tell the stories of the people who lived so long ago. When I started my work on Sarah Wilds, I read every online article I could find. Then I read all the entries in every book on the Salem Witch Trials I could find. Most said the same things about her, like she had an unsavory past based on two court cases, which are often quoted way out of context. Finally, I was able to purchase a copy of the Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt, my Salem Witch Trial Bible. It is a collection of all the available documents, verbatim and in chronological order.
    I studied all of the depositions offered for and against Sarah, the petitions, her jail transfers, and everything else included in the documents, which were now at my fingertips. Looking at the original sources allowed me to get a glimpse of her life, her relationship to her husband and her son, as well as her neighbors.
    Not any other book tells us that her son, Ephraim, thought of his mother as a friend. The primary document pertaining to his position for restitution does, whereas that document. In Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt. No other book tells us that Sarah shared a cart with Ann Pudeator on her return trip to the Salem Jail from Ipswich, except Records of the Salem Witch-Hunt. No other book quotes Sarah, when she angrily said to John and Joseph Andrews, "it is a brave world if everyone did what they would." After all, they took a scythe from a tree after Sarah said that there was none to lend. Records of the Salem Witch Hunts mentions this. This book is a must own for anyone seriously studying the witch trials.
    Another great source for putting together great colonial stories, Records and Files of the Quarterly Courts of Essex County. This is the source I used for the story I will tell in next week's minute with Mary about the supposed witchcraft allegation against Joanna Towne, the mother of Rebecca Nurse, Mary Esty, and Sarah Cloyce.
    Tune in next week. It's a great story. Thank you.
     
    [01:06:07] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:06:09] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:06:28] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. 
    Witch hunts across time. Witch hunts past. Witch hunts present. Once a person, once a child is targeted as a witch culprit, their old life is over. Nothing is ever the same for them again. The family is never whole. They are no longer in their home with the family unit, living life as it was prior to the accusations. Most often, extended family is no longer close, family is scattered. My ancestors tried for witchcraft were hanged in Salem, and we do not know for sure where their bodies were buried. Probably on family land. Rebecca Towne Nurse is likely on the homestead. Maybe Mary Towne Esty is on hers. 
    We do know many of the Towne families scattered out into other settlements, other colonies after the Salem witch trials. My ancestor tried for witchcraft in Boston was acquitted, but to date records after the trial giving any sort of timeline for the remainder of her life have not been identified. Her life course was altered. What happened to Mary Hale? Her daughter, my ancestor tried for witchcraft in Connecticut, also acquitted, disappears from the record. We know she and her husband fled their land in Wallingford. We know where some of their daughters settled. But to date, Winifred Benham disappeared from the record after her final witch trial. What became of 4 year old little Dorothy Good, arrested and tried for witchcraft in the Salem Witch-Hunt? What happened to enslaved Tituba after the trials were over? We know nothing of Tituba's fate. Due to uncovered records in 2022, we know the unfortunate course Dorothy's life took. It was unsettled, she never landed on her feet. There was continued turmoil and misfortune. Learn more about those records next week on Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast when this important newly uncovered story is told by Rachel Christ Doane of the Salem Witch Museum.
    What happened to those accused witches of the past, is not unlike what is happening today. Today, thousands of people are targeted and hunted. They are believed to have used sorcery or evil to cause misfortune to their family, neighbors, or community. In many, many countries today, misfortunes like dangerous weather and unexplained sickness or death are still believed to be caused by humans doing supernatural harm.
     In Ghana, women are hunted as witches, and thousands of them are now in refugee camps. These refugee camps are known as witch camps. The women sent away to them are alleged witches. They are innocent. They are not witches. These are not witch camps. These are refugee camps loaded with forgotten women. Women who have not forgotten the life they were torn from. Women who carry the visible scars and damage on their bodies from the attacks they endured. They survived brutal attacks, but now they are set aside. Their existence is buried in the past that they were plucked from. They are barely surviving, many of them do not survive. Thousands of women did not supernaturally cause mischief and misfortune. They were vulnerable and now they live a life uprooted, suffering from what has been done to them.
    Once a person, once a child is targeted as a witch, their old life is over. Nothing is ever the same for them again. The family is never whole. They are no longer in their home with the family unit, living life as it was prior to the accusations. Most often extended family is no longer close, family is scattered.
    Awareness of the violent, modern witch hunts against alleged witches is increasing across the world. International media, organizations, governments, and individuals want it to stop and are taking action and are educating about it. The United Nations Human Rights Council is acknowledging the crisis and urging additional efforts by effected states and by all stakeholders. We are all stakeholders in efforts to stop these witch attacks and abuse crimes against women and children. When you see it in the news, read about it and share it. Educate yourself and others. Today you have heard from alleged witch descendant and journalist Karin Helmstaedt. Go watch her documentary today. Share it today. Her documentary, Why Witch Hunts are Not Just a Dark Chapter from the Past, features important interviews with several experts, including Advocacy for Alleged Witches director Dr. Leo Igwe, Witches of Scotland advocate Dr. Zoe Venditozzi, modern attack victims, and witch trial historians. You will see the faces of modern witch attack survivors and hear from their own voice what has happened to them. Please see the show description for the link to watch it. 
    The Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project has started to collaborate with individuals and organizations in discussion about a future Connecticut State Witch Trial Memorial. This will not be in the place of local community tributes for the individual victims like Alice Young, Goody Bassett, or Mary Barnes, for example. To join us in the early stages of brainstorming and recognizing what descendants and Connecticut residents would like put together to pay tribute and educate, please contact us now. 
    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast supports the global efforts to end modern witch hunts. Get involved. Financially support our nonprofit initiatives to educate and intervene. Visit EndWitchHunts.org to make a tax deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast super listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com. Keep our t-shirts, available on zazzle.com, in mind when you start to get excited about Halloween 2023 and buy some fun wear. Sport one of our awesome shirts and introduce people to the podcast or one of our projects by leaving your house looking cool.
     
    [01:11:59] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:12:01] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:12:02] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:12:07] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
    [01:12:09] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:12:11] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:12:14] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
    [01:12:17] Sarah Jack: Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
    [01:12:21] Josh Hutchinson: Support our efforts to end witch hunts.
    [01:12:23] Sarah Jack: Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:12:26] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
     
    
  • Cemetery Conservation with Rachel Meyer of Epoch Preservation

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Welcome to our 40th episode! Enjoy a great conversation with Epoch Preservation’s Rachel Meyer. Epoch, a business on the North Shore of Massachusetts specializing in the preservation of burial grounds and their artifacts, has worked repairing grave sites broadly in Massachusetts including in Gloucester, Ipswich, Newbury, Salem, Revere, Saugus, Groveland, Methuen, Peabody, West Roxbury, and at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead Cemetery in Danvers. You have enjoyed Epoch’s Facebook live worksite tours, and you probably have heard Rachel on other podcasts, so you know that you are in for a treat!  There is so much to take away from her gravestone preservation expertise and personable and engaging education style. We also connect historical social injustices to our advocacy questions: Why do we witch hunt? How do we witch hunt? How do we stop hunting witches? 

    Support Us! Shop Our Book Shop

    Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

    Salem Witch Museum Presentation of Dr. Leo Igwe on Advocacy Against Alleged Witch Persecutions 

    Epoch Preservation Website

    Epoch Preservation on Facebook

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Fact Sheet for Connecticut Witch Trial History

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Discord

    Buzzsprout

    Mailchimp

    Donate

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:27] Josh Hutchinson: Today's guest is Rachel Meyer of Epoch Preservation, a business on the North Shore of Massachusetts specializing in the preservation of burial grounds and their artifacts.
    [00:00:39] Sarah Jack: She gives us the scoop on cemetery maintenance.
    [00:00:43] Josh Hutchinson: Learn about gravestone repair.
    [00:00:46] Sarah Jack: What is her connection to the Salem Witch Trials?
    [00:00:49] Josh Hutchinson: Learn about her experience working the Rebecca Nurse Homestead cemetery.
    [00:00:56] Sarah Jack: And how she looked after the Charter Street Cemetery, the old burying ground in Salem.
    [00:01:02] Josh Hutchinson: And the Riverview Cemetery in Groveland.
    [00:01:04] Sarah Jack: I'm gonna give it to you straight. You're gonna hear why there's better options than grave rubbing.
    [00:01:10] Josh Hutchinson: And we'll talk a little about cemetery etiquette.
    [00:01:14] Sarah Jack: Epoch has worked in Gloucester, Ipswich, Newbury, Salem, Revere, Saugus, Groveland, Methuen, Peabody, West Roxbury, Hampton, New Hampshire, Somersworth, New Hampshire, and at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead Cemetery in Danvers. You have enjoyed their Facebook live worksite tours. You probably have heard Rachel on other podcasts, so you know that you are in for a treat. I love this interview, because there is so much to learn from this type of important work. And anytime a local shares experiences, you get a closer look than anyone else can give. 
     What is the meaning of the name of your company?
    [00:01:58] Rachel Meyer: Oh, I wanna quiz you. How do you say the name of our company?
    [00:02:04] Sarah Jack: Epoch.
    [00:02:06] Rachel Meyer: Oh so we, when we became a business six years ago, almost to the day we asked our friends on social media, "what should we be calling ourselves? What should we name our new business?" And they had a million ideas, and all of them were taken. And Josh and I were out swimming at the marina and I was like, I don't know Josh, we gotta come up with a name. And he said, "how about Epoch?" And I said, "I don't think that's how you say that word." And so we contacted our friend Brendan O'Brien. He does Rumney Marsh and Revere, and we said, he's an English teacher, and we were like, Brendan, how would you pronounce E P O C H? And he's in America it's epoch and England, it's epoch. And so we chose the name loving it, obviously means like an era, a time of your life. We're both in our forties, so this is but one era of the things that we've done in our lifetimes, is one of the best eras or epochs.
    But we knew all throughout that we were going to have a little bit of, is it epic or epoch? And people pronouncing it both ways and neither way is wrong, and we don't get offended at either. And we actually giggle and I nudge him. I'm like, "see, you chose it. This is awful." But it was a good name, and it was the only one that wasn't taken of the thousand names that we Googled and tried out, you know?
    [00:03:29] Sarah Jack: Yeah, I love it. I called you Epic for several years, and then I heard some folks say it the other way, so then I started saying it the other way, so I've called it both.
    [00:03:39] Rachel Meyer: Yes. People tell me they have arguments in their household over it, and when they finally get me on the phone, they're like, how do you say your name, and one spouse loses and one wins. So I love it.
    [00:03:52] Sarah Jack: That's awesome.
    [00:03:52] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. No, it's a great name.
    [00:03:55] Rachel Meyer: Thank you.
    [00:03:56] Josh Hutchinson: And how did you get started in cemetery preservation?
    [00:04:01] Rachel Meyer: It's almost like I, I got started in two bursts. The very first thing I did in a cemetery was I was in Hamilton and I was looking for the gravestone of my own great-grandfather, and I found out he was an unmarked grave in a veteran's lot. So I went through all of the necessary paperwork with the veterans to get him a marker. So this will be the first time that doing something in a cemetery was planted in my brain. 
    But then I was working as an administrator at the Sargent House Museum in Gloucester, and I was doing NaNoWriMo, but not in November because I don't ever have time in November, which is, for people who don't know, is writing a novel in a month, and I did it, but like the very last part of it was set in a burying ground in Gloucester. So I googled historic burying ground, Gloucester, and this was like nine years ago. And it brought me to First Parish on Centennial Ave. in Gloucester. And we couldn't even walk in. The weeds, I didn't even know weeds grew this tall, but they were up to my shoulder. I'm five seven, and we had to wade through them just to get to the main part of the cemetery. And the main part, you couldn't get anywhere near the gravestones. There were like a lot of syringes and trash back there. And then later, within probably like a week, we found out that there was a whole cemetery even behind that, a small, Victorian era cemetery that was so overgrown that you couldn't see the entrance, you couldn't see any of the gravestones. It was like poison ivy floor to ceiling, when it grows in big vines. 
    And so I came home, and Josh was painting the house, and I was like, "Josh, we gotta at least get a weed whacker and like weed whack some paths so people can get to the gravestones." And then before I know it, I'm like quitting my museum career and saying I'm full-time going to save gravestones. Took tons of classes, just gained experience the hard way, and now, two years into that project, I was like this is a good time to stop. I'm not independently wealthy. I do need to work. And we also don't live in Gloucester. We live in Ipwich, so it was like a 40 minute drive and I was doing it full-time. So when I started, there wasn't a cemetery commission, and we were able to, out of the volunteers that we recruited, have a cemetery commission for their city.
    So we handed the project over to them, and I don't have to do anything. I check in every once in a while. If I see the grass is becoming a little unwieldy, I might make a phone call and say, "hey, I didn't give two years of my life for nothing." But but I pretty much never have to do that. It looks beautiful. They're doing a great job. 
    So that is the very long story of how I got into cemeteries. And then after that project. I was like, I'm never doing this again. That was so hard. And I had to make people angry at me, cuz I had to call people and tell them, you're not doing your job well or you're neglecting things, and that's never fun. I still have to do things like that sometimes, and it's awful. 
    And I was just done until about six months later, I wasn't anymore. I went up to Newbury, and I saw the condition of their cemetery. And that one's owned by a church. It's a beautiful cemetery. It just needed, it needed help. It's a very small congregation. They can't manage it. It's giant, and it's it's tied with Dorchester as like the oldest burying ground in the state. And so I think it dates to 1632. And I called them and I said, "can I just like volunteer? I've been a volunteer all this time." And they're like, actually we have a grant. Would you be able to become a business? And Josh and I were like, "who else has this knowledge? Of course, let's become a business." And then those conversations started about names, and the social media that you guys might follow.
    [00:07:59] Sarah Jack: That is awesome. So we, we were gonna ask you how much of your job is landscaping, but it sounds like it depends on how they've been able to take care of it before you get there.
    [00:08:11] Rachel Meyer: None anymore. So those were self-driven projects, where if we weren't gonna do it, no one was gonna do it. It was more than a part-time job just being out there whacking back Japanese knotweed, which is ridiculous. It was like a acre and a half of Japanese knotweed. And if you know about that plant, it does not go away. Man what's that monster where you cut off its head and two more grows? It's that.
    But now people really just hire us to repair their gravestones. If somebody's hiring us to repair their gravestones, they probably already maintain their grounds, so luckily we don't have to do that anymore, because I don't know if I could do that anymore. It's hard work.
    [00:08:49] Sarah Jack: We recently have been to an old burial ground in Connecticut, and it had those poison ivy vines in a lot of spots and it's scary. It's like, "that's poison ivy."
    [00:09:01] Rachel Meyer: Yeah. I giggle because I have, in this picture in my mind of Josh who's actually sensitive to poison ivy, I am not sensitive to poison ivy. I can touch it without any really repercussions. I hear that can change. But I have this visual memory of Josh literally, as sensitive as he is, like pulling these vines outta trees. He had poison ivy. Nothing too crazy, but just always, it's a, I should send you photos so that you the visual is impressive.
    [00:09:31] Sarah Jack: Wow. So it's was coming with the job for him.
    [00:09:34] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, I mean he has a landscape background. He was an organic, he has like a certification, organic lawn care and stuff like that. So he already had an idea of how to do things. But me and the other volunteers that jumped on board were like, "oh my goodness, I feel like I'm cutting through a jungle." but it was exciting when you would find something, and it was exciting when someone would contact you and say, "hey, that picture you posted is my grandmother." Cuz these weren't long dead people. We were finding people's like grandparents. And people were getting very emotional cuz they hadn't been able to visit in 20 years.
    [00:10:12] Sarah Jack: Wow. That's wonderful.
    [00:10:14] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, it's a really good feeling. I highly suggest it for anyone.
    [00:10:18] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm excited about the region that you cover, because I have a lot of ancestors in the cemeteries that you work in. Like I saw you were working in Groveland recently, and my grandfather's sister and mother and grandparents are all buried there in Riverview Cemetery. I've got a lot of people in there.
    [00:10:42] Rachel Meyer: You're gonna have to privately tell me their last names. Two years ago we repaired probably like 15 gravestones of varying ages. This year we're repairing 126, and there are varying ages. They're not just the very old ones. They're also like semi newer, too. Good chances you, some of your family may have made it into our list.
    [00:11:03] Josh Hutchinson: Oh yeah. Yeah. I'll definitely have to touch base with you on that.
    [00:11:07] Rachel Meyer: We'll plant flowers for them if they're yours.
    [00:11:09] Sarah Jack: Wow.
    [00:11:10] Josh Hutchinson: Aw, thank you. That'd be so sweet.
    [00:11:12] Rachel Meyer: Yeah.
    [00:11:14] Sarah Jack: How do your ties to the local history enrich your work?
    [00:11:18] Rachel Meyer: So my family goes back in Massachusetts to the Mayflower. We're also, as we talked about, witch trial descendants, also Quaker descendants. We're descended from Cassandra and Lawrence Southwick and their son, I think it's Daniel, who was told he was gonna become enslaved with his sister, and then no one acted upon it, thank goodness, but otherwise I wouldn't be here. 
    Anyway, so I have family in all of these little burying grounds I work in, but I don't really think very much about it, because, to me, the reward is doing things for other people. No, no matter what burying ground I'm in I'm probably gonna have at least one or two people in it, just going back that far.
    But I'm aware when something, they're like, there are certain names I keep in my head, and when I see them in the burying ground, I'm like, oh, there's a Chase. Let's, let's make sure to tell everyone we fixed that gravestone for sure. And there's a Southwick and here's, especially the Chases. I'm very fond of my Chases. 
    But so I'm fully aware of it, and I think part of my original feelings of we can't let our cultural heritage die, no one else is doing this, I'm gonna do it with my own hands was a dedication to my own ancestors who made it so I exist, and our predecessors that make it so our governments and our towns are here.
    You know, It's meaningful, but it's not really at the forefront. We don't use that information to decide what we're gonna repair. Our decisions are based on walking into a cemetery, seeing what's broken, and just fixing what's broken. We don't do a lot of research on who it is, cause we don't have time to. We're very prolific as a business. We leave it to the historians to tell us whose gravestone we just repaired. And I love it. I love it when I'm like, we just repaired this whole lot of Kimballs and I'm descended from the Kimballs, but I don't know a ton about them. And we'll have four or five people being like, "oh, they're my people, and this is all of these vital records," and they just floods through the comments. And I love that I have such smart people around me that can inform me and make it exciting for me, cuz I'm giving them a gift, but they're returning it right back. 
    [00:13:44] Sarah Jack: Yeah.
    [00:13:46] Josh Hutchinson: I enjoy hearing you mention these names, because I have the same names in my family.
    [00:13:52] Rachel Meyer: Yeah.
     We look a little alike. Not that anyone can see us, but I also have a beard and mustache. Take my word on it.
    [00:14:02] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, no. I'll have to connect with you offline about some of these names you're dropping, because I have the same people in that area. Getting back to it, how else are you involved with history and preservation?
    [00:14:18] Rachel Meyer: So I serve on our local historical commission. And I think sometimes my views can be, I'm so outspoken that every time I mention I serve on the historical commission, I have to say, "but I'm not speaking as a historical commission member." I've been warned.
    So we live in Ipswich. So I'm on the Ipswich Historical Commission, and most people in history know that Ipswich has the largest number of first period houses in America, which is phenomenal. We wanna protect them. The reason why they're there is cuz we were actually poor, a poor town at one point who couldn't build new houses. And so now, like any other municipality, we're facing a lot of new building and stuff that we need to handle with care. So that's why I got involved with the historical commission.
    But we've been doing, since I joined, I have to admit that I joined with a mission and when people say, think Rachel joined with a mission, I go, "no, but I did." I knew what history wasn't being told. It bothered me. I know in general, outside of Ipswich, I take on a lot of, not take on, no one asked me to do it. I get in my head that I want to repair a lot of like African-American gravestones, and there's no one really to point them out, like with the gravestones of our white population you might have locals who know they're descended from them and will say, "maybe give this some attention." But that doesn't really happen so much with the black community, because often they don't know they're descended from these really important people.
    And so outside of our work as a business, I take on these pro bono projects for Howard Street segregated section, or right now we're working on getting Marblehead a couple gravestones for some important, I don't know how to describe them. Joe and Lucretia Brown, they were tavern owners, but they were also possibly black governors. We had Negro election day here where people voted black governors. But anyway, not to get too off topic. I just wanted to give you some background about the things that interest me. 
    So when I joined the historical commission, I had it in my head that we talk a lot about colonial stuff, which is something that obviously makes us important, but it's not all that happened. And I wanna tell history in a comprehensive way. So in my time at the historical commission, which has been short, we have put up a plaque for a millworker strike that happened here, where a young woman named Nicoletta Pantelopoulos was shot by police, and so the plaque is to her. We adopted Indigenous People's Day.
    Off topic, but also surprisingly in the same vein, we put up a plaque to the writer John Updike, who I think in some ways, because of the scandalous nature of his writing, was also being pushed out of the mainstream for some reason. And recently we renamed a park that didn't have a name after Jenny Slew, who was the first to sue for and win her freedom from slavery. I hedge on it the way I say that, because there were other people I've learned that sued for and won their freedom based on them being indigenous. It's hard to know how exactly how to word her role, but she definitely set the precedence for others to sue and for the abolition of slavery in Massachusetts. It's just incredibly important to me that we're not just telling the history that brings in the tourists, that we're telling the history that is right to tell, too. 
    [00:18:03] Josh Hutchinson: What time period are we talking about with Jenny Slew?
    [00:18:07] Rachel Meyer: Yeah. So she's early, right? Sometimes when we think about slavery, we're thinking about the 1800s, cuz we're thinking about slavery in the South. But she actually won that case in 1766. And I've heard some scholarship. I'm not a historian, I'm gonna let you figure this out. I heard some scholarship that maybe her great grandmother was Dorcas Hoar. She was white on her mother's side, but I am 100% not a historian. I'd like to know more about why people think that, because it speaks to this idea that persecution is handed down not only in the black community, but possibly in the white community, too. 
    [00:18:50] Sarah Jack: I like it, because there's more story to tell over the generations, different stories. Like you said, you've got going from witch trials into slavery, there's a lot of story to tell there.
    [00:19:01] Rachel Meyer: When I got up and spoke at the select board as myself, not a representative of historical commission, I said that this story is like the perfect show of intersectionality. We have somebody who is being forbidden to sue for her freedom, because she's owned by her husband, and then she's also enslaved.
    But also, she proved that her, because her husband himself was enslaved, it wasn't a legitimate marriage. So now she could sue. There's a lot of injustice going on in that story that's a little bit different than some of the stories you normally hear where somebody's born into slavery. This was a woman in her forties, and there's a lot to unpack there, because the reason she won her case was because her mother was white.
    It's it's a lot. And then you have somebody like Ma Betts coming around, shortly after her. And you're like, she was up against a hard legal battle. It's, yeah. I don't know. I'm amazed by Jenny Slew's story and it's so complicated.
    It was the first time I had heard this theory, too, and I was like, and it was well into the naming of the park. It didn't factor into it at all. And then I heard this, I heard, it was a little lecture given at Salem State, and I was like, whoa, this makes a lot more sense now how she ended up in this position. That makes me feel even more protective of her, that we share witch trial ancestry.
    [00:20:37] Josh Hutchinson: What are some of the things that you do to repair broken stones?
    [00:20:42] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, so there's a series of rules that we have to follow. So it's the Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Historic Preservation. And they're similar to the same rules that you need to follow if you're restoring a house. Things need to be aimed to be reversible. They need to be similar in material to what you are replacing or restoring, the least invasive methods you can use.
    So everything that we do is in keeping with those standards. There are sometimes stones that are so hard to repair, but you're like, no, I need to use this particular type of mortar. So the repairs that we do, we used to do a lot of stone cleaning when we started out, and in fact, if somebody wants to start out doing this, I suggest stone cleaning.
    We're judicious in the stones that we clean because we didn't wanna clean anything that had an underlying condition that we didn't know how to treat. 
    So we also piece together gravestones, even if they're a hundred pieces, because most people will give up on gravestones that are, that seem unrepairable. But we actually kinda consider it a challenge. And it's not, no disrespect to the people buried there, but sometimes if it's bad enough, we refer to those gravestones as Frankenstones, because they're literally a hundred pieces held together with mortar, and they're not the prettiest. It's the original gravestone. Somebody could replace it at some point if they wanted to, but the grave is still marked. 
    So then, apart from just, from repairing them, we can also document sites. We do a lot of stone assessments, where we do a careful history of the burying ground and make maps and go stone by stone and photograph them and take careful notes of their condition and how we'd repair them and get people budgets and help them come up with a plan to move forward.
    Sometimes we have a plan to move forward. Sometimes we're just being given 10 gravestones, and someone says, "can you repair these 10?" And we don't go through that whole process, but sometimes we really get to dig into a site and learn its full history, and we walk away feeling really part of that site.
    And practically we wrote a book on it, and you can find it at any historical commission. It's cool cuz I'm not a very good writer. You should have read my NaNoWriMo novel. It's why you don't, you're not seeing that novel published. But instead of seeing me work in cemeteries.
    [00:23:09] Sarah Jack: I don't believe it. I was wondering what D2 is.
    [00:23:14] Rachel Meyer: D2 is a quaternary ammonium solution. In olden days, like with olden days, we're talking 20 years ago. In ye old days, when I was in my twenties, people would just take a couple gallons of water and put like a tablespoon of ammonia in the water and clean gravestones with that. It's not advisable, cause people tend to go a little heavy on the ammonia.
    And so D2 is a quaternary ammonia compound. So it works by, so we clean the gravestone with really just water, skewers, gentle brushes, and then we spray the D2 on afterwards, and it gets into the pores and it works over time with the rain to clean any of the biological growth out of the pores of the stone and also lightens the color of it.
    If you go into a graveyard and you see some glaring white gravestones, it was probably recently treated, that growth will grow back in probably five years. You'll start four or five years, you'll start seeing like a little bit of a green haze and at that point what you do is you mix the D2 one to one and you do a maintenance spray, and that'll stop you from having to scrub it again, cuz it's, cleaning a gravestone mechanically isn't something you wanna do over and over again. It's kinda like gravestone rubbing. You don't wanna keep interacting with a gravestone over and over. It's not good for it.
    [00:24:28] Sarah Jack: I had seen that you have a recommendation what people can do to capture images instead of gravestone rubbing. Do you wanna talk about that?
    [00:24:37] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, sure. I think this is like one of those divisive topics. It was never, it's never meant to shame somebody who grew up doing great. Like I get a lot of comments that are like, I've been doing this since I was a child," and I'm like, "I'm not mad at you." We didn't have cell phones then. We didn't have this ability to capture everything in front of us in real time.
    So you know it, it's okay, but if you want these to last for another few hundred years, that practice has to stop. So what we like to do is on a sunny day, we take a full length mirror with us to the graveyard, and you can stand quite far away from a gravestone to catch the sun. And we reflect the sun back onto the gravestone, and we can create different shadows using the mirror. It's really cool. If you go on our Instagram, you can see a lot of these shots that are like, that's because we used a mirror on them. 
    I was also recently taught this really cool technique by our friend Andy Perrin. A few people have showed, there was another lady. It's her Instagram is Where the Dead Lie. If you go on, you'll see all these awesome like 3D renderings. And she sent me some from Old North that you could 3D print. So a friend of ours is starting to 3D print these gravestones from her renderings. But if you have an iPhone, you likely have Lidar on your iPhone, which does an amazing job. I don't. I am one of those uncool people that has a Galaxy Note 1000 wherever we are in the chain. But you can still take like dozens of photos around the gravestone and create just with your cell phone, a 3D rendering of a gravestone. The possibilities are absolutely endless. And then we have this friend, Andy Perrin. He takes those 3D renderings and he's come up with a process where he can put them through some software that he's created, that at some point I hope he sells to the public, that makes it incredibly easy to read these gravestones. They almost look like x-rays. They're like works of art. They come out so beautiful. There are other options besides repetitive gravestone rubbing, and it's, I always feel bad when people are like, "but I teach gravestone rubbing, but, and I teach to do it the right way."
    And it's there's not a right way to do a gravestone rubbing on a gravestone that's just been conserved. You're pushing on it. The materials we're required to use are soft. Enough people do that, our mortars are gonna crumble out. We saw that a lot in Salem where people would repeatedly sit on gravestones, and the conservators, who did work probably a year and a half before, all their mortar was crumbling out from the repetitive interactions from the public. We really don't like gravestone rubbing it. It's not we don't like gravestone rubbers. They're okay. It's just the act that we don't really like.
    [00:27:30] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I've been to Salem years ago in October to the Charter Street, and that was before they put in the crowd control. And yeah, people were just walking all over off the path, sitting on things, leaning on things, and overall very disrespectful. And I'm really glad that they limit access now. It's been very helpful, I think.
    [00:28:00] Rachel Meyer: I think most people who know me from that time because, so at that time, you're describing a few years ago, I was the stone conservator for the City of Salem. So I did stone conservation work in all five of their historic burying grounds. I worked for the DPW, and they had never had an on staff stone conservator. They invented the job for me and my fir, so I, I'm waiting for the groans to hear this. So I'm from the area, and my very first job as a teenager was at the Salem Wax Museum, and I worked there for two years. And by the way, I had the most fun, like it was the most, it was the most fun, regardless of how people feel how they interpret history.
    My boss was actually really fun. I really liked him. But it's right next to Charter Street Cemetery, so I've been watching that cemetery very closely since I was 16 or 17 years old, working right next door to it and progressively as Haunted Happenings got bigger, it just became wild, people going in there in costumes. Most people that went in there actually commented to me that they thought it was a movie set. They didn't understand it was a real burying ground.
    And so when I worked for the cemetery department, I was in there all month one October, and I nearly lost my mind. Like I flipped out. And at this point they had a little bit of crowd control going on when I was there all month. But I was like yelling at people left, not yelling, trying to politely tell people, don't sit on that tomb, do you mind staying on the path? A million different little things. And I felt like I was being some sort of a nag and ruining people's tours, but that wasn't the intention. The intention was that the tourism in Salem was unmanageable for our historic resources, and we needed to dial it down given that it's an actual burying ground and not a movie set.
    So I went on, not a rampage. That sounds worse than it is, but I contacted the media. I gave a proposal that they didn't even want at the cemetery commission that they kept saying, "this is above your pay grade." And I said, "these are my ancestors, and I'm its gravestone conservator." It would be like being in the PEM and being an art conservator and seeing somebody throw paint on a painting and having to just sit there and not say something because it might upset the tourism industry or something.
    And as you can tell from photos and coverage of tourism in Salem, it hasn't affected the tourism industry to show respect to Charter Street Cemetery. It was constant, people putting candles on gravestones and letting the wax run and parts of the wall falling into the graveyard and me having to put it back up over and over again.
    I don't know if I was part of this discussion about the new welcome center, but I think that I had left that job the second season, because the conditions were hard. It's not like the other towns where I work in, where it's nice and quiet and I can think. There was a lot of, there's a lot. I don't know how to say this politely. Salem isn't the usual, it's not the usual place we work. It's different, and it can be chaotic and hard if you're in a cemetery. 
    But shortly after I left, they made that agreement with the PEM to put a welcome center in the historic house. And we've taught a couple workshops there since. And it was absolutely beautiful. I loved doing it, and I loved seeing how much quieter and respectful it is. And there were certainly still people being disrespectful of the staff that's working there. So no one, none of your listeners are going to be doing that, but if they know people who are, tell 'em to stop it, cause you know, there's no reason to come into somebody's town and visit their historic resources and be rude to the people protecting them, which happens a lot. And those people are working hard. That visitor center's open year round, even in the cold. That's amazing. 
    [00:32:12] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'm so glad all those changes have been made though, for all the reasons you said. The first Hutchinsons that came to America are buried in there, and I was there this last May, and it was just night and day different from October seven years ago. So part of it's seasonal, I know, but just the changes and how access is controlled. It was so good.
    [00:32:40] Rachel Meyer: It's become less seasonal. Like I was there in January, I live like 25 minutes away, and I'm from there. So I was there in January, and there were a ton of tourists, and that's not usual. And I'm not sure if it's because of the sort of end of the public health crisis that people are like, "let's get out to Salem year round."
    But I was actually very surprised at how many people were there in the dead of winter and it was very cold. So I think their tourism is only amping up more and more. So those conversations about how to protect our cultural heritage and the cultural heritage of the people we've been ignoring, not just our cultural heritage, but the cultural heritage of the black, the indigenous people of Salem, is a conversation that needs to happen continuously, and luckily I serve on a lot of boards and commissions where I hear that work being done.
    I don't see Salem's tourism going down, and I don't see the parts that we all groan at that are offensive going away, but maybe we can amplify the things that aren't offensive and the things that do warrant our respect. And maybe that'll drown out a little bit more the other stuff that we're all like, "oh, did I really just see that?"
    [00:33:58] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much, Rachel. 
    And Josh and I'm not gonna speak for Josh, but I and Josh, we really agree with you. We support that, all of that. I was wondering what people need to do to take care around gravestones, but then I'm also wondering, are there any other old habits that people need to stop doing?
    [00:34:22] Rachel Meyer: So beyond the gravestone rubbing, I don't like seeing people sitting on tombs. They're a lot more delicate than you think, and sometimes the damage to them isn't immediately obvious. Sometimes you're creating micro cracks in the stone and then water's getting in and heaving and it's, it, sometimes you are starting the damage and you don't see it immediately, but it, the damage happens over time.
    Just picnicking on top of tombs. I'm actually a big fan of picnicking in some, I like when people picnic in cemeteries. I like when people use cemeteries. I don't necessarily like it if people are having like a yoga class in between the stones, and people are trying to visit their ancestors.
    But we have a local graveyard here in Ipswich that has this like stairway that goes, it's treacherous. It's like a famous stairway right up the center of Old North, and people just run up and down the stairway all day long. And I think it's the best thing. And because I can't do it, sometimes when they get to the bottom, I like to heckle them and say, "is that all you got in ya?" Whatever. I have to amuse myself. 
    But there, there are a lot of behaviors that some people mind and others don't. I don't mind. There's very little that I do mind. It's literally just interacting with the gravestones in a way that is gonna wear them out over time or somehow disturbing grieving people or dancing on someone's grave or stuff like or wearing gigantic dinosaur costumes into a burying ground and in an old cemetery in Salem, that'll bum me out. I don't mind if you're dressed as a flock of bees, but you can't even see out of that dinosaur costume. 
    [00:36:01] Sarah Jack: That dinosaur costume is like my favorite thing to see every year. I don't wanna see it in a cemetery, but I cannot wait to see that thing coming down the sidewalk every year.
    [00:36:11] Rachel Meyer: Imagine being at the entrance to Charter Street, and the people have to be like, "sorry, you have to take off your dinosaur costume." What a shock. Like I wonder who's in there. It's like peeling away a skin, somebody should dress as a nesting doll, just have another dinosaur costume.
    [00:36:30] Josh Hutchinson: Wow. What are maybe some misconceptions that people have around graves and gravestones? 
    [00:36:38] Rachel Meyer: I don't find them morbid. When I'm in a, I don't feel a morbid feeling at all. I feel more a feeling as though I'm at the beach. It's like a calm, almost spiritual feeling that you get when you're near water is how I feel surrounded by all of this carved slate and these majestic trees and moss and birds and foxes and whatever. I don't find it morbid compared to listening to the news or being out in the world in general and hearing people fight. I think that they are in a way maybe reminders that we're going to die, of course, but they're also reminders of how much longer we get to live than they did. A lot of these people didn't make it through infancy.
    And maybe they're a reminder of how grateful you should be about our medical advances and not having to walk 20 miles to the meeting house every Sunday, or whatever it may have been for them. So for me, that's probably the biggest misconception is that they're depressing. How about you? Have you heard any ideas that you're like, "ugh?" 
    [00:37:57] Josh Hutchinson: I wanted first to just comment off what you just said. I find them very relaxing places. Most of the time you go to a cemetery, it's very quiet and people are, it's like a outdoor library, just the way that people usually approach a cemetery with respect and quiet voices and you can't get a whole lot quieter and more peaceful, I don't think, which is appropriate being a place of rest.
    And yeah, I just think about the people and the history and their stories, and that's what I think about, not ghosts or I'm gonna feel a chill when I go to the grave sites. It's not anything like that's not. That is that dark tourism. I don't get that kind of feel at a cemetery at all. I just feel so peaceful, even when I'm looking at my own ancestors. That's such a profound feeling of a connection with them. I enjoy being in cemeteries.
    [00:39:09] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, I think you touched on something that is a misconception probably about us as people is that we are really into the occult. But we don't, I tell people I don't wanna disappoint people who are like, "tell me about all the ghosts," and I'm like, "no, my, my family, even the dead ones don't wanna talk to me." They don't wanna interrupt my work. They don't want me to drop a stone on myself. They're just not talking to me. Very occasionally I'll, I don't mind a ghost story if I know it's about a fictitious person, but I don't like perpetuating this idea that anybody's family isn't at rest, even those that are 400 years old.
    I definitely have friends who do paranormal investigations, and I couldn't love these people more, and we just don't talk about it. People just assume that a lot of creepy things happen while we're in cemeteries. And actually, I feel very spiritually alive in cemetery, more of a connection to my own spirit there than ghosts or anything like that. 
    So I don't know if this is a New England thing. So here, our local culture, it isn't enough to have something historical happen. So say you say Giles Cory was pressed in the general vicinity of Howard Street Cemetery. You can't end it there. That's not culturally what we do. You have to follow it with, "and he roams the cemetery forever," so which is half adorable. I don't know. It doesn't bother me as much, as long as people aren't passing it off to, I don't know. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be such a gimmick, the witch trials.
    But there have been times. I worked in Howard Street Cemetery repairing a gravestone, and there was this white rat that came through. It was super friendly, like it was clearly someone's pet who got loose, and I called the police. There's probably a log of police calls that I've made in Salem that are half lunacy, but I called the police to see if they could get me a cage, because I was surrounded by my tools. I couldn't abandon them to find a way to catch this white rat that was clearly a pet, and it disappeared behind a gravestone. But I told everybody it was Giles Cory's familiar in that. I nearly named it Giles Cory, but I know that's not true. It's just a little dark gravestone conservator humor, but I'm definitely a citizen of the North Shore with my strange little, let's add on "and he wandered the halls forever." I'm from here.
    [00:41:40] Sarah Jack: That's great. Yeah, I I love spending time in cemeteries. My father is in one now, so I go for a different reason. I look around him, and I think of all the stories. I know his story, and then I think about what are these stories around him, and that's really one of the things that I'm curious about when I'm visiting.
    When we were in Connecticut last month doing a speaking tour with Dr. Leo Igwe, we went to an ancient burial ground in Windsor. And man, I just, I could have spent hours there just looking at the names, whose grouped together, what do these stones look like? What year were they? What do they say? And I love the fun stories, too, the lore, but I want the actual stories to be pulled out and talked about, too. 
    What can we learn from looking at stones and what do they tell us? What stories do they tell us?
    [00:42:38] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, so I'm more of an art conservator than a historian. So for me, a lot of these people, you can tell their stories in other ways. The ones that actually have gravestones, where the ones that don't you, they're hidden and lost, but you can usually interpret their story by looking at a house or something else.
    One thing that people don't talk about in the general vernacular are the actual artists and carvers. So those are the people that I really try to push to the forefront, because you haven't heard these names before. You don't understand how they're connected and what a gentle little web it is. How some of them married into each other's families, and that's why we have all these generations and why some people seem to carve in the same sort of style and with the same material and others carve in another with slate, or you know, those are the faces that I'm trying to get out there, the talent.
    Even with contemporary gravestone carvers, it's really important for me to push them and promote them and say, "hey, these people are doing great work." Because they're gonna end up in graveyards where the focus, and rightfully so, is on the person, on the gravestone. But all that art is going overlooked, and some of those gravestones are pure art. Some of them of course are mass-produced in the sense that they were carved ahead of time, and someone came in and bought them. But some of them are specific to the person buried there. And it's not easy carving slate. I've tried, that's not my future.
    There are lots of people who give tours of the history, but I'm obsessed with the stone carvers and their artwork. If somebody off the street could name one gravestone carver, like they can name one painter, I'd feel like I did something. I don't, I'm not holding on hope.
    There's quite a heritage of stone carvers specifically here in Ipswich, where John Hartshorn lived, and there's a lot to know and a lot to learn and I'd love to tell you all about it. But this would have to be a four hour long podcast.
    I went through Old North Burying Ground, I think it was two days ago, with some teenagers from a summer program here in Ipswich, and they were teenagers that kind of did just like people go up and down the stairs in the middle. They did a little bit of that without looking around before, and a couple of them were just absolutely captivated, being allowed to take their time to observe the artwork on the stone. And I had one of the kids read the entire inscription on the Reverend Nathaniel, I can't remember his last name right now, but I had her read the entire inscription, and where she made mistakes, I pointed out, you're making that mistake, because we no longer use the long s we no longer say AET. We no longer shove weird letters in weird places cuz we forgot them or we now spell words the same way each time instead of spelling them five different ways on the same gravestone. It was really fun just to have a kid try to read a gravestone and say, "you're not having trouble because there's something wrong with you. It's because this is outdated. And yeah, there are two years on that gravestone. Why?" 
    It's a blast to fully engage a young person in this. It's not always easy to get young people to put down their devices, but these kids were so smart and so funny and so engaged and curious and asked so such great questions that I think we need more of that, less tours, less I'm gonna tell you what's important about this cemetery and more self exploring with young people, allow them to walk around. I gave them flags, and I said, "I'm gonna let you just wander around for 10 minutes, and I want you to put a flag next to the gravestone you wanna talk to me about." And then we just went around, and I asked all their questions and we explored it further. So it was really guided by them, and I think we need more of that, letting young people explore their own enthusiasm and curiosity, rather than telling them what we think they should know. Maybe I lost my calling as a teacher.
    [00:46:51] Josh Hutchinson: Oh that's great. And so they were interested in the art then?
    [00:46:57] Rachel Meyer: They were interested in a little bit of everything. They had the same questions that I probably would've covered if they didn't ask them, like, why does this gravestone so small, and why does it only have initials? That's called the footstone. They had really smart questions. I noticed that the name on this one's the street I live in on. Do you think they're related? You know it, their questions were fantastic, and it opened up a lot more conversations and a lot more actual engagement from them than if I was telling them what was important about that burying ground.
    [00:47:27] Josh Hutchinson: And talking about the art, I love to view how it's changed over the ages, how those, the symbology has evolved is very fascinating to me. What's can you tell us about that? About what are some common motifs and how have they changed?
    [00:47:49] Rachel Meyer: It changes obviously with our culture. I think early on people weren't really going to come back and visit too often. So we had embedded fieldstones. We didn't have a lot of access to carvers. So people would take fieldstones that they find, and they would put 'em upright and they'd put 'em in rows and that's how they would mark graves. That's likely how Rebecca Nurse's grave is marked. That's how George Jacobs' grave was marked. And so then gravestones came into being when we got some stone carvers. Not all the stone carvers were particularly good. Some of them were just like like struggling to put some names on a gravestone. That's probably the 1660s. We have some fieldstones that are actually carved, but they're not carved with motifs, and you can't read them cuz there's not a lot of contrast between the carving and the stone. And then you go into the winged skulls and the crossbones and the you better behave yourself cause and don't get too full of yourself thinking you're gonna live forever, cause you're not, you're gonna be just like me someday. 
    And then into sort of around like the late 1700s around the Revolutionary War, we start chilling out a little bit. We start carving on marble, and sandstone was around during slate, too, but we don't have as much of that as is in Connecticut. In Massachusetts, we have a little bit, but not a lot. But here, Massachusetts, around the Revolutionary War you really start getting into marble, and there's overlap, there's still slate, but it starts becoming willows and urns and the things that you are feeling now when you go into a cemetery. Serene motifs.
    Not a huge amount of originality. There are some carvers of willows and urns that definitely stand out to me, like Benjamin Day with his stout columns and very finished, almost presidential that he has these columns on both sides of the gravestone and just feels very formal, and they're beautiful, but they don't really vary from gravestone to gravestone.
    And then, of course, contemporary gravestones can run the gamut from playful to as boring as you could imagine. It's almost like some people are still like, "I'm not that into gravestones. I'm just going to get the name on there and mark the grave." And then some people are hugely creative. Some people still use slate and marble. 
    You were saying that you had lost your father. When I lost my mother during the pandemic, I didn't have any choices for gravestones. I got her a flat granite plaque. That's what we were allowed to have in this cemetery. It meant a lot to me, not because the gravestone itself was special, because it's not, not really. I tried to make it a little special, but because I managed to get her a gravestone when everything was shut down. And I, I wonder sometimes that people are like, so find a grave has different like virtual cemeteries. So she's in several virtual cemeteries for covid deaths. And I wonder sometimes are people gonna see the date on that gravestone and think her daughter really tried, or are they gonna say, "Rachel's a gravestone conservator and got her mom the most boring marker on the planet?" Which wasn't the intention, it was just to mark her grave, for me to have that peace of knowing she wasn't in an unmarked grave. 
    And as off topic as that, that is, I think that we have to keep in mind that not everybody has money, and not everybody can do large monuments. And it's not a choice sometimes. There are still people in unmarked graves, and I wish that I could start a nonprofit that would help people to afford marking graves, because you see it all the time, people doing GoFundMes. It's incredibly off topic, but I feel like we're going back to people not being able to mark graves. 
    [00:51:43] Sarah Jack: I actually, I have two friends that passed 11 and 10 years ago, and they have unmarked graves, and I was so shocked that could happen. I wanted to go visit, and then I found out that the family hadn't been able to give them any type, and it is, it's shocking.
    [00:52:02] Rachel Meyer: And there should be a minimum, right? There should be a minimum thing that a family should be able to count on. Taking away the idea that some people want like green burials and stuff like that, the bare minimum of dying on this planet, if it is your spiritual belief to have a grave marker, should be getting a grave marker. That shouldn't be a thing for the rich.
    So I don't know how to make a nonprofit, but I just feel like there's a need there for people to, even just, there are a lot of vampire stones out in the world. I call them vampire stones, which is somebody couldn't afford to put the death date on it, but it has all the other information, as though they never died.
    And you, I don't think that family should have to worry about if your mom and dad didn't have life insurance, that nags on you, having a family member in an unmarked grave. For some people that really bothers them. I don't know how to solve it, but maybe I'll spend time doing it.
    [00:53:00] Sarah Jack: We'll try to put our heads together with you on that, but, and I don't feel like it is totally off topic. I think those struggles that are happening right now, people need to have their eyes open to it. And also, when you go back to those that were executed as witches, we don't have graves for them.
    [00:53:20] Rachel Meyer: Or enslaved people.
    [00:53:21] Sarah Jack: Yes. And enslaved people.
    [00:53:24] Rachel Meyer: Yeah, that's the importance of memorials and memorial markers. Like a memorial marker can be placed in a cemetery even if you don't know the person was buried there, right? That was the conversation I was having today about the Bradbury grave in Salisbury. I was under the impression it was a replacement, and when I had looked at it to begin with, I knew there was no evidence that there was a actual burial of the Bradburys there. It was a footstone. There was some fragments that identified them as the broken footstone of their son. So there's no evidence that they were buried there. So nothing was done wrong. I was just trying to find out what changed. Was there new evidence? Is that why we're calling them replacements?
    But they are memorial markers. And of course she wasn't hanged in the witch trials. That's not why she's in an unmarked grave. But I also think that all of these memorials that we set up, the one next to Charter Street, the one over in Proctor's Ledge, the one out in Danvers, they serve a purpose for people who can't visit a grave, and the park for Jenny Slew, maybe it won't. I don't know if it'll mean as much to the community that we're hoping to engage as we hope it will, but it's a place to go. I don't know. I don't know how to do right by everybody, but I feel like it's a step in the right direction. 
    [00:54:45] Sarah Jack: Absolutely.
    [00:54:46] Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we're definitely with you on the memorials, because we talk to a lot of descendants of witch trial victims, in particular, and they don't have any place to go if there's not a memorial, because you don't know where the person was buried, if they were buried at all. It wasn't marked. So we have no idea, and people go to visit these towns where their ancestors were from, and only to find out that there's no marker for them.
    [00:55:20] Rachel Meyer: Or it's something funny, like I went to Amesbury. I don't know the family, so I don't wanna, I'm not trying to insult them. I went to Amesbury to see where Susannah North Martin lived, and there was a monument, like a tiny little boulder monument with a plaque on it, but it was like underneath a basketball hoop.
     But recently, I think they named a stretch of the highway that went across her property after her. So whenever I drive by through that, I'll be able to say, "hey, Susannah, how you doing?" 
    [00:55:50] Sarah Jack: And you're a Susannah descendant. 
    [00:55:52] Rachel Meyer: I am. It's so funny, I was talking to someone how we're so proud of the accused that we're descended from, oh, proud may not really quite be the word, but we definitely gather around them, but we don't gather around the accusers that we're descended from. And there's a lot of, all of that, like in any given descendant of the accused, there's probably an accuser close by. Yeah, I don't mean to laugh, but it's human nature to rally around the person that the injustice and not own the fact that you also come from the part that you don't wanna look at. And maybe we should be looking at both. 
    There was a ancestor in my line from Ipswich, and when I found her on Ancestry, Ipswich was literally spelled I P S W I T C H, just to like call. It was cute. It was whoever put that up, their way of being like, hey, and I think she accused someone. I feel like her first name was Rachel. You would probably know a lot more about this. She accused someone, because her baby was sick, and then this person came around and the baby got better, and then when the person left, the baby died. She accused a local of witchcraft. I'm not sure it was anyone who hanged.
    I actually live pretty close to what was called the old jail, but probably had no relation to the witch trials at all.
    [00:57:05] Josh Hutchinson: You made a really good point about how we have accusers in our lines, and we tend to not talk about them as much, but we need to, because we need to understand why the witch trials happened, and you understand it by thinking like the accusers would've thought, what were they afraid of? And you have to understand where they were coming from or else you don't understand why it happened.
    [00:57:31] Rachel Meyer: Yeah. And the witch trials is different than other sort of social atrocities where there's a very clear definition between two groups, and one group is doing a thing to another group. This is one group doing this to themselves. And I know there's a million reasons why. I'm pretty sure I've heard most of them throughout my life from ergot to more serious things like mental illness and sexism and land disputes and just sticking out.
    I think, in my family, I feel like a possible thing that isn't talked about as much is Quakerism. Like my family is very Quaker going up to Susannah North Martin and being a descendant of the Southwicks. Cause it hasn't gone unnoticed to me that she was, that they were named as caretakers of some of the Southwick children. So I wonder sometimes I hear a lot of theories about it, and I know not every case is exactly the same, why they were accused, but I wonder if people aren't paying attention to the fact that it became illegal to go after Quakers only three years before the witch trials. I think people may like underplay how hard it was to actually be a Quaker, too. They were so disruptive.
    I don't take myself very seriously. Maybe that's another misconception.
    [00:58:48] Josh Hutchinson: You're not stoic and kind of numb to everything. 
    [00:58:55] Rachel Meyer: I think some people think I should be more stoic, but yeah. You can only be you.
    [00:59:01] Sarah Jack: That's right. And only you can be you. Nobody else can. 
    [00:59:05] Rachel Meyer: That's true. Do you wanna talk about the Rebecca Nurse Homestead Cemetery?
    [00:59:10] Josh Hutchinson: That would be amazing. Yes.
    [00:59:11] Rachel Meyer: Yeah. So I'll give you a little background about how we got to working there. Dan Gagnon, who is literally one of my favorite people, contacted us and said, "someone said that you repair gravestones. He didn't know this, but years before, someone said there might be a gravestone in our basement."
    And I was like, "do tell," but several years later, Dan said, "we actually have quite a few gravestones in storage and it's time to get them out of our building." And I was like, "okay, let's do this." And so he went for a grant with Essex National Heritage, and they got it, but I wasn't sure they were going to get it, because it was the beginning of Covid and everything was shut down.
    And I was like, there's no way that this is a priority to anybody right now. But I don't remember what month it was in, but they were like, "no, you got the grant. Come start working" in like July. And like we were talking about, my mother had just died. So Dan doesn't know how precious he is to me. So not only am I working in a burying ground that has ties to the witch trials, so my ancestors, I'm able to break away from just the awfulness of what was going on in the world and do all of these live videos and engage with people in there who are stuck in their homes in this really exciting way. And I hope that the people who are watching them felt like they were getting the gift that we were trying to give them. But if you go back to our Facebook page, if you go to the beginning of when the pandemic started, so summer of 2020, you'll see tons of live videos of us digging, of the things that we found, of us putting gravestones together, of us trying to entertain people in any way we knew how.
    But we were hired to repair. We've repaired almost every gravestone in that cemetery. And when we got digging and got underneath some of the gravestones, someone had taken all the foot stones and threw them under the gravestones to support them, and they weren't corresponding with the gravestone that they were in. So we were like pulling together this puzzle. Like we would be in one of the Putnam, underneath John Putnam's grave, and we pulled out like four or five footstones from other graves and running around trying to figure out whose footstone that was. Sometimes they were broken and we put tons of them back into place. There are still some that we had to bury that maybe we could repair at another time. But the, just the amount of lost gravestones we found on top of also returning all those gravestones that they had in their storage. It's like a different, completely different place than it was when we started. And so then year two, we were hired back to just finish up a few different projects there. And we had a grant from the local cultural council, very small grant, but I feel so protective of that graveyard. 
    I wonder sometimes what Dan thinks of me. So one of the things that I do is when I make art and then so sculptures and then I make molds of my art and when I mix too much material, I'll pull that material in the molds and I end up with all these magnets and artwork and all of this, and every year I drop off like a couple dozen magnets at the Rebecca nurse homestead for them to sell as fundraisers, whether or not they want them. I just do it anyway. So if you go into their gift shop, you can probably buy some of my magnets from graveyards. But I'm also like fiercely protective of the burying ground.
    At the beginning of every season, I email Dan. I'm like, "how did everything hold up? Any, cuz trees fall during storms?" I'm sure you've been to their homestead, and the cemetery is unprotected on three sides, so any wind would brush right through and could take out a repair, since we have to use really soft mortars. But everything's been holding up so far. 
    We had to re-repair Phineas and Ruth Putnam's gravestones, cuz they were really low breaks and then there was a wind storm and it knocked them right over. So we had to redo those. We just come right out and maintain them and no one needs to ask us, because I want everything to be perfect there. I want people to feel as proud as I feel going in there. I don't see myself stopping feeling protective over that burying ground until I'm just not able to do it anymore. But I think about it all the time, and it's my first thought, "have they opened for the season?" I want everything to look good for the visitors. I would never charge them another dime. It's important and special to me, and here are my magnets that you didn't ask for.
    [01:03:50] Sarah Jack: As a Rebecca Nurse descendant, I'm so grateful for what you did there and hearing about your care for that land and those memories and those graves, it's very touching to me. I visited for the first time just under a month ago, and it was a brief visit. We were there. Dr. Leo Igwe was gonna be speaking in the meeting house, and we had just, I don't know, maybe 20 minutes before, and I got to walk through the field, go into the cemetery, and I can't wait to be back. I would love to be able to just sit there and soak it in. I was really taken by the trees, as well, cuz they're just so huge and, but everything was perfect, what you've done there has left it perfect. It was beautiful. Everything looked so wonderful. Thank you for that work.
    [01:04:44] Rachel Meyer: That place smells good. The pine, it just, every once in a while we work in a burying ground that just smells like a car air freshener tree. And that's one of them. You just go there, and you're like, this is amazing. Dan feels strongly that Rebecca Nurse is buried at that cemetery, and I don't disagree with him.
    I haven't read a lot of, I haven't retained, I should say, a lot of the documents around her burial, but, so there are actually a series of embedded fieldstones in a row and I feel, that's how we buried our early dead, so I feel strongly that those embedded fieldstones are early burials. You don't know whose they are. I can't say which one would be hers, but it makes field of someone who you were trying to conceal. Then the cemetery growing around them when it became a little bit less scandalous and unlawful to have these burials. But you can tell these embedded fieldstones, because they are in a line and one even has an embedded fieldstone footstone.
    Like I was told George Jacobs' grave was found over near Hollywood Hits in Danvers is that his bones were found in between two embedded fieldstones, which tracks. That makes plenty of sense. And then they were disinterred, and they were put into storage and then reinterred in the Nurse Homestead with the new gravestone. 
    So what I know of early burying in New England, burying those very early people, you see it in slave graves, too. Like we're, we just did a gravestone assessment in Lynnfield, where we uncovered a section for people of color in the back, and there were embedded fieldstones there. We found it on a very old map. We weren't digging through and finding people, but it's, it tracks with trying to hide, either trying to hide a burial, somebody not getting enough respect, or there just not being a gravestone carver in town yet, so I wouldn't doubt if one of those sets of embedded fieldstones down at the cemetery are hers.
    [01:06:55] Sarah Jack: Thanks for talking about that. When you talked about feeling responsible, protecting the burials there, I just find that so interesting. When I look at her whole story over these centuries, people have felt that way, her descendants, the community, to her history. There's so much that we know of her, so much that we have of her because people have taken responsibility for that memory. I find it very interesting how that just, there's so many different ways that comes into play when you look at her story and then when I hear you speak to that, too, I'm like, that's really interesting. It's very amazing. .
    [01:07:41] Rachel Meyer: She died with my 11th great, I think it's 11th great grand. They died on the same day. That means something to me. There's also something about Rebecca Nurse, where she is impossibly wholesome in a way where it's not that other people weren't, but with some of the others, other people accused, you get it. You're " she spoke up, she was a little different. She owned things that she shouldn't have been allowed to own per that time in history or whatever it was." But Rebecca Nurse, it's like that's just weird. She was clearly not somebody I would accuse of witchcraft. I don't mean to laugh about that, but maybe I'm the kind of person I would accuse of witchcraft, but I look at her so pious and attending church and doing good, taking in people's kids, like why would you accuse her? Am I correct in saying that she was originally found innocent and then found guilty later?
    [01:08:37] Josh Hutchinson: That's absolutely correct. She was acquitted. And then Justice William Stoughton, the Chief Justice, instructed the jurors to reconsider. He had misinterpreted something that she said. When another accused person came in, she said, "oh, you brought them in. They're, they were with us." And she meant that they were another prisoner, but they're like, oh, she meant that they were another witch. 
    [01:09:10] Rachel Meyer: That isn't the only thing that I've worked on that was connected to the witch trials, that some of the things that I work on, I'm thinking about just the people who would be like, haha, you said the wrong thing. I worked on the gravestone of Sheriff John Harris here in Ipswich. We found very little of it, so we had to just put it in a tiny base. But, I think he was somebody who carted people from Ipswich to Salem during the trials. 
    And then there's a strong connection at the Rebecca Nurse Homestead, because it feels like a complete picture. You have a house there and all the history there. But there's a lot of people who were accused in all kinds of burying grounds around here, including also people who played some pretty nefarious roles in those trials that you're like, cool. I was over at Abbott Street Cemetery giving a tour. We've been talking a lot about restoring Abbott Street Cemetery with Historic Beverly, and we were over at the Reverend John Hale's gravestone, which is carved by Nathaniel Eames, is this really dramatic slate stone with these wings that, it's just unbelievably dramatic.
    And I had read the Modest Enquiry that he wrote after the trials, and it was my first time reading it and I'm so on the fence about Reverend Hale, cause I feel like I'm reading this, and part of me knows he's doesn't believe in witchcraft, like a big part of me is this is a member of my congregation that was accused and let's, I'm just gonna have an aside with her and see if maybe we can work this out.
    And you're reading that pamphlet and there are times as a first time reader where you're like, "and say it. There's no such thing as witches. Say it." But he never says it. And he's talking about spectral evidence, and it's like literally painful that in his time it's hard to be like, is he kowtowing to those that he answers to? Or is he believing what he's writing but not being able to really go the distance? Because the way he's speaking, it's as though he clearly didn't believe in the whole thing, but he feels only allowed to say we don't believe in spectral evidence. I don't know. As a first time reader, I got a certain, just a real feeling of letdown about that pamphlet. Go all the way. Come on, Reverend Hale. You can just say it. And he just didn't say it. There are all these middle people that weren't bad, but they were also like not helping completely, you know? 
    [01:11:48] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:11:59] Mary Bingham: Most men in colonial America were farmers by trade and designated a portion of their farm, usually by a corner lot, to bury their loved ones. This was almost certainly so for Rebecca Nurse and John Proctor. I will return to their stories in one moment. Generally speaking, the body of the deceased was laid out at home no more than two days after the death. Mourners would come, pay their respects, and drink some liquor specifically set out for them. Then they would congregate outside the house until it was time to carry the oblong wooden coffin to the burial ground. It depended on the length of travel from the home to the burial ground as to how many sets of bearers would carry the coffin.
    Usually the elderly men carried the cloth that covered the coffin, and the first group of younger men carried the coffin a designated amount of time before another set of younger men took over for relief. The burial was simple, without symbols, and in silence. Messages from the mourners were attached to the frame on which the coffin rested. Those messages were removed before burial, and in some cases were published. 
    The penalty for the capital crime of witchcraft in the colonies was hanging. The bodies were then cut from the gallows or the tree and thrown in a nearby crevice. It was confirmed by a ground penetrating technology circa 2017, before Proctor's Ledge was confirmed as the hanging site, that no human remains were there.
    So let's go back to 1692. What most likely happened is the families came in the darkness of night to bring their loved ones back to their farms to be buried. In the case of Rebecca Nurse, she was eventually excommunicated from her congregation. Thus she would not have a proper burial. Tradition states that her family did in fact come later for her remains and return them to her property. No historian of which I am aware has argued against this tradition. We all believe with almost 100% certainty that Rebecca is buried on the beautiful burial ground on her property. 
    Most likely this was the case for John Proctor, as well. In John's case, there was a document that Emerson Baker and Kelly Daniel found at the Peabody Historical Society where Proctor descendants described where on his property he was buried, by a stonewall near what is today the high school in Peabody, Massachusetts.
    George Jacobs' remains were found on his property. He was eventually interred at the Nurse family homestead in that burial ground. For more information on the memorialization of Rebecca Nurse and George Jacobs, please listen to the following Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast episode titled "Dan Gagnon on the Salem Witch Trial victim George Jacobs, Sr." For more information on the burial of John Proctor, please listen on YouTube to "America's Hidden Stories: Salem Secrets." Thank you.
     
    [01:15:38] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:15:40] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:16:00] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), weekly news update. Thou Shall Not Suffer podcast records in the United States, but is important to us that we connect and partner globally as much as possible with all communities around the world. Witch-hunt violence has and does continue to impact every corner of the earth in some way. The world grows more connected, and we must collaborate collectively to end witch hunts. 
    Dr. Leo Igwe, director of Advocacy for Alleged Witches will be going on a speaking tour of the Scandinavian countries in August of 2023. If your group is interested in hosting Leo, please inquire as soon as possible. His speaking topics include blasphemy, freedom of religious belief and humanism in Nigeria, advocacy against witch persecution, and critical thinking in educational reform in Africa. 
    We had the pleasure of hosting Leo this past May for a speaking tour on his advocacy against witch persecution presentation in the United States in New England. You can view his May 15th Salem Witch Museum presentation on the Salem Witch Museum website. See our episode show notes for the direct link. When you host Leo, you'll be enriched by his conversations and presentation content. He is a relatable expert that is exceptional at engaging his audience and communicating the urgency of his presentation topic with facts, on the ground experience, and familiar scenarios that help attendees connect to what he is teaching.
    We had the pleasure of hosting him at three historical museums, a university, and the Connecticut state capitol. Holding these events with Leo grew and benefit both Leo's and our organization's social and professional network in a powerful way. Be creative and consider how one of his topics could fit your organizational events and social justice work. Please use your social connections to support him, and bring him to your Scandinavian community this August. It will not only bring diverse education to your event, hosting Leo supports his important social justice work, and amplifying his work impacts men, women, and children living in our world now who need global advocates. 
    The Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project has started to collaborate with individuals and organizations in discussion about a future Connecticut state witch trial victim memorial. This would not be in place of local community tributes for the individual victims like Alice Young, Goody Bassett, or Mary Barnes, for example. To join us in the early stages of brainstorming and recognizing what descendants and Connecticut residents would like to put together to pay tribute and educate, please contact us now. 
    Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast supports the global efforts to end modern witch hunts. Get involved. Financially support our nonprofit initiatives to educate and intervene. Visit endwitchhunts.org to make a tax deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast super listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com. Keep our t-shirts available on zazzle.com in mind when you start to get excited about Halloween 2023, and buy some fun wear. Sport one of our awesome shirts, and introduce people to the podcast or one of our projects by leaving your house looking cool.
     
    [01:19:21] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you Sarah.
    [01:19:23] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:19:24] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
    [01:19:29] Sarah Jack: Join us every week.
    [01:19:31] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
    [01:19:34] Sarah Jack: Visit at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
    [01:19:38] Josh Hutchinson: Remember to tell your friends about the show.
    [01:19:41] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more and to give a tax exempt donation.
    [01:19:50] Josh Hutchinson: And please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to us. That will help us out significantly.
    [01:20:01] Sarah Jack: Thanks for taking the time to do that.
    [01:20:04] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and beautiful tomorrow.
    
  • Dr. Leo Igwe on the Deadly Witch-Hunts of the 21st Century

    https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/2045153.rss

    Show Notes

    Dr. Leo Igwe, activist and Director of the Advocacy for Alleged Witches gives a gripping update about the witch hunt crisis in Nigeria and other African Nations. Leo teaches us the historical and societal patterns and parallels of witch hunts past with modern day witchcraft accusations. We discuss the urgency of immediate interventions and how the landmark witch trial exenteration legislation in Connecticut resonates to the rest of the world. This episode is a call for worldwide collective action against witch fear, a call to create safe communities for the vulnerable citizens in our world communities and a plea for you to spread the word with transformative conversations using your social reach.

    Support Us! Shop Our Book Shop

    Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria

    Stop Sorcery Violence in PNG

    Buy Witches and Witch-Hunts: A Global History, By Wolfgang Behringer

    Write a Stratford, CT Town Council MemberResolution Concerning Certain Witchcraft Convictions in Colonial Connecticut

    Purchase a Witch Trial White Rose Memorial Button

    Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!

    End Witch Hunts Movement 

    Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store

    Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!

    Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!

    Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.

    Fact Sheet for Connecticut Witch Trial History

    Website

    Twitter

    Facebook

    Instagram

    Pinterest

    LinkedIn

    YouTube

    TikTok

    Discord

    Buzzsprout

    Mailchimp

    Donate

    Transcript

    [00:00:20] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    [00:00:26] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
    [00:00:29] Josh Hutchinson: We recently got to spend a week with today's guest.
    [00:00:33] Sarah Jack: We toured historic witch trial locations in Massachusetts and Connecticut.
    [00:00:37] Josh Hutchinson: And he gave five talks in five days about modern witch hunts.
    [00:00:43] Sarah Jack: We had a wonderful time together in person. Be sure to check our social media for pictures.
    [00:00:48] Josh Hutchinson: And now Dr. Leo Igwe joins us from Morocco for an important episode about 21st century witch hunting.
    [00:00:57] Sarah Jack: We learn more about the current situation.
    [00:01:00] Josh Hutchinson: And how past and present witch hunts are connected.
    [00:01:03] Sarah Jack: Listen to the questions he asks us, the questions he's asking you.
    [00:01:08] Josh Hutchinson: Stay tuned to learn how you can help end the witch-hunt crisis.
    [00:01:12] Sarah Jack: Dr. Leo Igwe is director of Advocacy for Alleged Witches. He works tirelessly to end witch-hunting in the modern world. His organization supports the victims and works with authorities to respond to attacks on people accused of witchcraft. Listen carefully to what he is telling us about the situation and how we can help end the crisis by taking action together. 
    [00:01:32] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much for joining us today. We know you're super busy.
    [00:01:37] Leo Igwe: And thank you for having me as usual. And this is a special edition, I'm sure, cause this is a first edition we're having since the resolution passed.
    [00:01:45] Sarah Jack: So much has passed since we saw each other, since we talked, especially since the first time we recorded. This is exciting and special conversation.
    [00:01:56] Leo Igwe: That was before of course I visited and I was able to, I went to the Salem Witch Museum and all the memorials there and all that. First of all, I want to say congratulations to you all for what you've done and the efforts you've made, and that nothing has connected, nothing has really resonated with what I've been doing here than what you just achieved in Connecticut and generally what you are trying to do in terms of remembering these people and honoring them as victims.
    What applies at the moment is like people want to forget them. There's this kind of silence, there's this thing that, or some people use it for entertainment, or some people use it like the tourist thing. Okay. You take people around, showed people where people were murdered, people were hanged, tortured to death. And of course it's of tourist value. But these are human beings, for goodness sake. Yeah. Let's pause for a moment that these are human beings, and have we really paid the tribute we're supposed to pay? Yeah. Yes. What happened them is part of our history, no doubt about that. Fine. But have we really paid them the tribute, or we just talk about them like as in passing and use them to entertain people, use them to make money and that ends it and all that?
    It was very inspiring coming around and getting to see all that's been going on in terms of honoring the memory of the victims in Connecticut. And like I said, it is part of the goal. What you're doing there, it underlies what I'm trying to do here. Yeah, when people are tortured to death, we shouldn't just push that aside, there's a need to understand what happened, need to make sure that justice is done, yes. So it is that sense of justice. It is that sense that people should focus on the miscarriage of justice that has taken place, instead of trying to talk about it as something that maybe should be used either for entertainment or lectures or to understand how primitive people were in the past. I think that's what resonated. 
    And I'm looking forward to also see how we can continue to use this to educate people. Yeah. And like I said, I noted in my lecture, Americans should not think that witch-hunting is a thing of the past in America, because they tend to be speaking to a very tiny segment of America that belongs to the past, actually, not to the present. Because if we are to look at it today, it is important they translate the resolutions, the memorials into educational programs, enlightenment programs, with the message never again. Yeah. It belongs to our past, but we can have it today, because a lot of people are migrating from different cultures. 
    The demographic tapestry of America is changing every day, and a lot of people are coming from Africa and Asia, and they become American citizens, and they hold these beliefs. So a lot of witchcraft accusations that are going on, but even though one cannot say the extent of the abuse, but it's important that we understand that these things are not much in the past and that honoring the memory of the victims could be a way America could tactfully and strategically position itself to make sure that the right message is sent to anybody who could indulge in such in the present and also in its future.
    So that is on that side. Then on our side here is also, it resonates because for us, of course, I'm going to use it, or we are going to use it to also tell our lawmakers they need to do more. Yes, I was fascinated by the debate on the floor of the Parliament, State Assembly, as the case may be, how the parliamentarians were discussing and articulating this. For many parliamentarians in my own part of the world, they don't care. It, it sounds like something you are coming to disturb them. Yeah. So meanwhile, they should be abreast with this. So if it is something that is going to help us in my own part to begin to lobby the parliamentarians and say, "look at what is going on, look at how the lawmakers took a very great step to honor the memory of these people." But we're not actually talking about that yet. We're not there yet. We're even talking about taking steps to stop it, what is going on now? So that is why what has happened and what you are doing at your end of the world is very important today.
    And again, I will not get tired of saying and repeating it. Whatever happens in America resonates a lot. Yes. And it is important that that leadership that has been missing, yes, because what has been missing, because it has been that silence. Oh, it belongs to the past, and you should be silent about it, even in the present. That shouldn't be the case. Yes. So it is also a message that people should have to break the silence when it comes to these victims and what they go through. And we should not hide it, because I was at the Salem Witch Museum and I saw all these monuments and moldings of people who were being hanged, and I was imagining the real thing. I wasn't even looking at that. I was imagining what happened in real life. And I was imagining myself being in that position. I was asking myself, "what is this?" Okay. And to say that a lot of people are going through such today, it means that we have not done enough, and there should be no sense of complacency anyway.
    And that the memory, the tribute we are paying to the victims in the US, will not be complete until it includes and embraces the efforts to stop this, make sure that what these people suffered 300 years ago, over 300 years ago, thereabout, that people are not suffering this today, and that we should not end it there so that any area is going on, it should be something that we should include even in our lectures, in our education. And there's this idea that, yeah, while we remember those who were tortured, killed, murdered, executed 200 years ago, we should not forget those being tortured and executed today. 
     So doing, we bring this sense of globality. We bring a sense of universality. We bring a sense of connection. Because very often some people pride in saying, "oh yeah, it happens in my own part of the world." No, the world is more interconnected today than the way that the world was when this thing happened, so we cannot continue to use the idea of the world in the past to use it for today, and that we should begin to see this as, in quote, in this holistic form. So that, as we are going about remembering these people and honoring their memory and remember how they were tortured and what happened to them, we should also have somewhere remembering that in Malawi people are still being stoned to death and that elderly women are suffering the same thing, that in Nigeria, people are still tortured, set ablaze, suffering this, made to confess to crime they never committed, some will refuse till the time they get killed. And there are a lot of parallels, there's a lot of common pattern in terms of what people suffered so that this will help us send the message. And I think that this will be very valuable in our efforts to end witch persecution, let's say in Africa and in other places where these atrocities are still taking place.
    [00:09:45] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much for that. You mentioned the visit to Salem, and you were able to visit the memorials in Salem and Danvers. What was your experience like there? What were you feeling? What were you thinking about?
    [00:10:03] Leo Igwe: First of all, I was trying to imagine what happened 300 years ago. Yes. And because in the course of my scholarship trying to do the academic thing, the way they explain it is like, is a dead thing. For me, coming to this place is like reliving. It takes me back, and I was like imagining. I was like trying to imagine what transpired, trying to replay it in my mind based on the stories I've heard. Okay. So then I was like, another thing going on in my mind was like, still after 300 years, there are three descendants of these people feeling connected and feeling it as if this happened yesterday. Okay. It was inspiring to me, because I don't think that injustice has an expiration date. Because it happened 300 years ago. It's not, I can still relive it. 
    When I went to the museum, I saw the stone being pressed. That I think is a moment like that of the stone being pressed. I wasn't looking at something that was really turning to me, or I was looking at something that was, I was chilled. There was this kind of, I was stiff with the kind of pain and anger and worry at the barbarity, so I tried to, I reconnected with people ordinarily. Or with something ordinarily, I was meant to think, oh, it happened. When you amidst a lot of Westerners, when they talk about this witch hunting, they make hand like this, as if it's like a fly, oh this thing happened 300 years ago. Okay. 
    But they were human beings, flesh and blood, and they suffered it. And why it was very touching for me was that because I live in a world where people are going through the same thing. So it wasn't like old then, it was like I was seeing the man who was burned, I was seeing the woman who was set ablaze. I was seeing another woman who was being tortured to accept what she did not do. 
     They replayed the trial whereby somebody was acquitted. Then people would scream. Then the somebody was, the person, the same person was eventually convicted, and I recall in Malawi the judges will tell you that they don't want to acquit some people, because when they allow them to go home, they could be killed, so they sentence them to prison. That kind of thing. So all these things were going, emotions were all boiling in me, trying to, first of all, see how though it, how present something that people claim to be, something that happened in the past. That's one. 
    Number two, I was also moved by the fact that the descendants of these people are still there. And I could still see the emotion, because as an academic person, they try to tell you to be detached from things like this. And I'm not studying sticks, I'm not even studying stones or rocks. I'm studying human beings being killed and tortured. I'm studying human beings traumatized and pained and murdered, set ablaze, stoned to death.
     It gave me an opportunity for the first time to really express myself. So, for instance, when we went to that memorial, I think that should be in Salem. Yeah. Where I paid tribute for the first time. I got there so close, and that's the closest I have been in my life. And that's the point I have really openly a little, I broke down, and tears came, because these tears have been there. I weep all the time they give me this news, but I've never had that space to really shed the tears. So it was like letting it out. 
    At the point it came, I was not prepared, but it just came, so I could now connect with these people who ordinarily, like now many of them being stoned, like they send me pictures, a woman being dragged and being stoned, I feel like crying immediately. But sometime you don't cry, start calling the police officers. Start calling, "okay, what are you doing?" Those things. I'm just, I was just pretending. I feel like crying. That's the first thing I wanted to do. But I will not cry. I'll be calling police officers, disturbing them. "Could you get to the venue? Could you make arrest?" And all that. So somehow as I was going, I was not, I had this opportunity to really express, and all that, yes, knowing that this wasn't actually taking place, but bearing in mind that this actually took place. In other words, it's part of our history as human beings. So that was the emotions that was going on in my mind. 
    And again, I was somehow was so happy that circumstances had made it possible for me to connect these histories. Which ordinarily, as an academic person, I should go back to any part in Africa or Nigeria or somewhere and be still be talking about the same people, sending researchers to go and be interviewing the same people, study how they are, how they're feeling, and coming back to classroom to earn money. Very important they are, but that's not my goal. This is a tragic situation. Yes. And it is a humanitarian crisis. I was happy to make these connections, and I'm hoping to use it in trying to help solve the problem, minimize the problem, reduce it, or if possible, bring it to an end.
    [00:15:30] Sarah Jack: Do you wanna talk about the solving part or do you wanna talk more about your experience? Like with looking at the documents, do you want us to ask you a question about looking at the documents or Winthrop or anything?
    [00:15:43] Leo Igwe: I think that one of the things also, I was happy with getting to understand the roles politicians played. That was another issue. Because there's always this idea, how did it end? And of course, they tell you this thing like, as if it's a little story, you know, a flip of paper, pen, they tell, oh, it ended. But this is a tragic situation. Stoning people, torturing them, pressing stone on them, a tragic situation that ended, so the role politicians played, and that's why I said I was very inspired when they told me about John Winthrop, Jr. And there's a need for us to challenge our politicians, yes. And I think, like I did when we made a presentation at the Capitol, I think that there's a need for us to tell the politicians that they're in positions to do better. They're in a position to take decisions that can benefit others, that can save lives. Yes. Let me just put it literally that way.
    And that is why it is important. We will continue to celebrate the memory or the life or the interventions of John Winthrop, Jr. So that we also use that to inspire and get politicians that there's something they can actually do, because oftentimes they tend to be helpless or they think, oh yeah, it's the people. No, there's something they can actually do. So I was very inspired by that, and I may exploring ways of how I can use that story also to inspire politicians here and make them understand that we need more of John Winthrop, Jr. I told Senator Anwar and Representative Jane, I told them that you can be, and they have become that. They just stepped into the shoes. So I want to see how I can take that story beyond Connecticut to other places. And I tell politicians, you can also step into the shoes of Rep. Jane and Senator Anwar. Okay, so it is important. 
    So there are so many aspects of what transpired within my visit. There's a takeaway, and I'm hoping that I'm going to use that. And it must not always be politicians, decision-makers, wherever they find themselves, judges, police officers, they can all step into the shoes, because I know very well that if they are ready to do their work, we can see these atrocities, they will end, or they will drastically reduce. It becomes something like when you do it, it's just like when you committed crime, the whole society goes as a, it's not like the whole society resigns to it or want to sweep that under the carpet. So I was inspired by the role the governor, John Winthrop, Jr., played in ending that, and I hope that I'm gonna use it also as an inspiration or a way to lobby politicians, decision-makers, chiefs, and people in authority that there's actually something they can do.
    Let me tell you what I found inspiring was that somebody was accused, and I think she instructed a person who went down. Was hidden, the person has to hide or, I think either the person's supposed to be punished or something like that. But there was a kind of try to protect the person from either being harmed or being punished. So there was a kind of a story, I don't know the best, I don't know, maybe you can help me with the story again, but try to protect the person.
    So it's not just all about the law and decision-making. You can actually take personal interests and tell the person, "come and hide. Come and hide in my house until the tension comes down." So there's a lot we can do. Yes. Because one of the things that led me to this work is that when you interview people, they try to say, "yeah, what do we, what can we do?"
    The mob, who are the mob? They're human beings, so if people feel that there's little they can, there's a lot they can do. These people can run to your place. You can hide them for some time. I've hidden them. For some you not, you're start engaging the people, and from there you can now save a life. 
    So what I'm trying to say is that going through this and understanding some of these dynamics as to what played out during that era and how it ended, was a great source of inspiration to me and how I hope I'll use that to see how I can rally a lot of people who ordinarily are resigning or who think they cannot do much to do this, to know that they can do something, and from that we could start hoping, seeing an end to this tragic situation.
    [00:20:02] Josh Hutchinson: That was the story of Katherine Harrison from Connecticut. She was convicted of witchcraft. They overturned the conviction. She had to move to New York, and as soon as she got there, people tried to run her out of town. So a man took her in and housed her. And yeah. And you're saying that's symbolic of the type of action that people can take.
    [00:20:30] Leo Igwe: But could take. Yes, could take.
    [00:20:33] Josh Hutchinson: So what kind of action can listeners take if they're hearing this right now?
    [00:20:39] Leo Igwe: Let me tell you the joy of today's world, cause we might all be thinking about all the dangers we face and all the risk we roll and all that. Let me tell the joy of today's world. You can do something from wherever you are. Yes. We are continent apart as we speak now, no, but we are putting together a program. People are going to listen without knowing that we are continents apart. We are hours and hours ahead or behind each other. Okay? So we have in our hands facilities like telephone or our phones and things like that. Now drawing attention, some relevant authorities, and they're there, there are a lot of, there are a lot of organizations, let's say, in different parts of the world that you can use to, "Hey, I don't like this. What is going on?"
    Or provide platforms. Because one of the challenges actually we have, for instance, in my own part of the world is that a lot of people don't even want you to talk about it. A school owner told me, "Leo, come here and teach us critical thinking, but don't come here and tell us that witches don't exist," or something like that. Sometimes there's even this prohibition. They don't want you to talk about it. 
    Okay, so first of all, you can help begin the conversation, yes, somewhere. Now there are a whole lot of Africa-related issues coming up. I know that whenever Africa comes up, there's always this stereotype about it, but we can open these spaces to looking at, okay, it happened there, it's happening here, making some comparison, and also looking at some of also universal trend, misogyny, patriarchy. This is an not peculiar traffic. These are things you find embedded in some of these issues. 
    We can bring a perspective using witchcraft. Others can bring a perspective using some other thing happening. But it is patriarchy, it is misogyny that is being played out, miscarriage of justice, mob violence, these things can take dimensions. What I'm trying to say here is that if you really feel pained by what's going on, and if you really think that we need to end this, we also have to be very creative about what we do, yes, in terms of how we integrate it. Though there's a lot going on in the world today, you can really draw attention to it, so it has so many dimensions. It has a human rights dimension. It has a women rights dimension. It has a children's right dimension. It has a policing dimension. It has a security dimension. It has a rural development dimension, urban development dimensions. But the fact there is that, what I've noticed is that same idea that it doesn't matter, that idea of minimizing it, that idea of trying to wish it away. It has also been institutionalized so that people find it difficult to mainstream this.
    Imagine the situation whereby we have conferences on development in Africa and we have a section and looking at the intersection between development and witch-hunting and witch persecution. But of course, you will still see the people in authority wish them away. Meanwhile, the person who is covering it or trying to brush that aside, people are being persecuted and killed in the person's villages back in Africa.
    So that is the tragedy. The thing there is that we really need to wake up. We need to change our orientation. We really need to admit that this is part of our history and confront it. Because if we don't confront it, it will remain there. And because a lot of people, when I was traveling around and speaking, I keep hearing, "oh, I don't know that this thing is taking place." and, okay, if you don't know, what did you go to school to do? So if you don't dunno, what is your internet do? Because I want to tell you, put this online and put witch hunt in Malawi. You will see terrible pictures, and you know they will not give you the news. Internet will give you images. Okay? So how can you say you know a lot, you don't know that this happening? There's always a way I feel when people tell me, "ah, but I don't know about this." Like, where are you coming from? Where have you been living? Okay.
    The fact is that many people don't know. Yeah, that's a fact. And I don't think that all these people I met in different parts of the US are lying. They're not. They were not lying. Ok. Many people don't know. So the first is that we have to know. What you can do is that, please, you need to know wherever you are. Please go online and try to see what is going on. And from there, begin to figure out what we can do and let that mainstream.
    Like now, I went for a conference, African studies conference in Cologne. Yeah. Because of my travel arrangements, I couldn't submit any abstract on witchcraft persecution and things like that. There was no talk about it at all. Instead, they were talking about, some anthropological African sense of engineering, some very, queer, somewhat interesting kind of thing. All this idea of, oh, Africa has this little sense of engineering. They'll not be going into the villages and thinking about certain things. Nobody will even replicate anywhere. Okay. So you see a lot. Being people overlooking it, people pushing the matter aside, not even for grounding, not even bringing it. And because of that, a lot of people will finish going to the university. They say they don't know. 
    So please what you can, the world needs to know, you can help us from wherever you are to inform the world. Because you know why? If people are informed, and I think they'll be in a better position to take action, so that one of the reasons why people are not taking appropriate action is that people are not informed or being informed. And again, don't wait to be informed. After listening to this, go online, and again, after getting informed, inform another person. From there, it start growing. And action can now come from different angles and different dimensions, because I want to tell you, I want to get partners. I want to get people who can help me. Like now they're burying people alive in Zambia. I cannot be in Zambia. They're burying people are alive in Nigeria. I cannot be in Zambia, I cannot be in Nigeria. They are burying people are alive in Côte d'Ivoire and some other places, they told me. I cannot be there. Burkina Faso. So the problem is huge. I need a lot of people to get involved, and people can really get involved when they get informed. So if what you can do is to help us inform the world, you are helping us a lot. If whatever you can do is to help us mainstream it in conferences and programs and discussions and workshops and all that, you are doing a lot, because I think that immediately we win the information war. In other words, get people more informed. I think that it will put us in a better position to address the problem. Cause I don't want to come back, let's say in the next visit America again. I'll be going around in the next two years and people, are still telling me, oh, "I dunno what is going on. I dunno what this is going on." Please, if you're listening to this program, please inform people it is there. So that what I want to be hearing is that, "what can we do? This is my suggestion. Can we get this done here? Can we issue press release? Can we send a letter to this president, this parliament? This is action oriented?" So for now, between now, the next time I'm visiting is information. We have to win the information war. We have to get people informed. Then after that, we now take the action phase. And hopefully that will help us see how we can begin to contain and end these horrific abuses.
    [00:28:00] Sarah Jack: One of the things that it brings to mind is Americans tend to make light of when they figure something out. There's a meme or a joke that goes around that says, I was this many days old when I found out there were witch hunts or I was this many days old when I found out how to open this. It's like like a joke in a sense. And I hope that people start to understand that.
    I don't think that right now Americans are surprised when they learn things about history that they didn't know you. You mentioned people are educated yet there's some significant holes in the education and then it's on the person to fill those holes. And I think we're in a phase as a culture, some of us are, where we're realizing, oh, we have these holes in our understanding to fill. This is something that is greatly impacted by that and other injustices and vulnerable people who suffered because of what was happening and then we don't know about it still. So this, what you're speaking to right here is extremely significant, obviously, to our modern victims, but to helping the citizens of the United States and of the world understand how critical it is that we do know, that we are getting to that next phase where we're taking action and asking which action shall we be taking? Not, oh wow, this is still so surprising. We have to get past the, this is surprising.
    [00:29:41] Leo Igwe: Yeah. We need to, because, we have all the facilities not to. Not be, keep telling us This is surprising again. Yeah. Because it'll not be looked differently as if, okay, you it that this person really doesn't want to take the necessary steps. And that's why I said, there's a need for us to go through, past that phase and understand why we are still using that this is surprise, or this is not, I've not known this, I don't know this, I didn't get to know this. We need to find out a reason for that and address those reasons so that we can make progress, because we just need to make progress in this. 
    And I want to tell you that when I announced this program in 2020, when I announced it, some of the journalists were like, they were thinking that, "oh yeah, this is like a pipedream." So there's this idea that yeah, this program, even if you engage in this, nothing is not going to come out. So it is not something that you should bother about. Yeah. Okay. So the silence has turned to inaction and despair and you other feelings that, so you don't, you, people just don't want to get into it, okay?
    Now, I would like us to see what we can do to overcome that, because that's exactly the mentality. Where will you get the resources for this? Whom are you going to work with? Who will support you? There are so many questions that they ask that border on "why get into this? People have forgotten this, or people don't want to pay attention to this. Why not allow this to continue the way it is?" So we really need to send that message that it is no longer going to be business as usual. And that's exactly what you did in Connecticut. You, you said, the message said, "no, we're going to remember these people. Sorry. These people are this, these people are that." And like the little I know, if I'm wrong, you correct me. The attempt somebody made in the past some years ago did not succeed and these were not succeeded in such way as if they just kept the votes, maybe the successful votes in the past and now added a few more to it. And they now passed the resolution right away.
    What am I trying to say? Let us start very small, because we have a problem. It is clear. We have a problem. Okay. And like I said, the woman murdered by witch hunters in Cross River in southern Nigeria, the daughter lives in the U.S. And from the immigration pattern, the daughter will end up being an American, if not she's American already. They're gonna have children. In other words, the grandchildren are Americans. Okay? This thing is not as distant. And the attitude of I don't know, or it's surprising is bordering on, we're being negligent. We're really failing to do or know or understand or address a problem we should be addressing. And like I said, we can start now, before it becomes something that will now involve human resources and the, and all kinds of issues and all that. It gets more complicated, so what I'm saying there is that it is important that we change our attitude towards this. Yes. 
    And what has happened in Connecticut is that this can be done. All of a sudden people took it seriously, and it resonated with them and it passed. And that we can take that sense of optimism, that sense of the fact that we can really change the attitude, towards other sectors. So that, because you know what I was thinking when I was coming, when I was returning from the United States, I was like thinking the next 50 years, the next hundred years, people may not even remember the individual actors who contributed. People will not ask, oh, were there oppositions? Were there setbacks? Were there people who didn't want to vote? People will be with the questions that, okay, what did you do? You did, you helped something, you helped another memory of this. That's only thing they want. And that's it. So they won't bother. How long did you go, the letters you wrote? How many times? Sarah flew from Denver to Connecticut. Did you come by road to do for this hearing? What did they tell you at the hearing? Some of these tiny bits, which we feel through this, a bit frustrating or something, in the course of this. What happens that, oh, what did you do? You worked together and honored the memory of these people, period. So what I'm trying to say that a hundred years from now or something, people may not ask, "okay, Leo what you're doing? Did you get support from Sarah or Josh or End Witch Hunt organization?" The question is that this thing ended.
    And maybe if properly documented, they will not be reading the tiny bits of how they came together. And so what I'm saying is that we're in the position to do this now. Let's not stop. Let us not allow anything to stop us from leaving a legacy that people will look back tomorrow and draw inspiration from. Yes. So let us not make excuses because the generations coming will blame us. Yeah. They may not blame us individually and all that, but they will look at it as just like we're looking at the people who were pressing stones on human beings who were, we're looking at them and said, ah, yeah, these people, they didn't do well, as they say in Nigeria. That's the way they say it in Nigeria, "these people didn't do well." Okay. You'll say that. Yeah. So we have opportunity to do better. We have opportunity to do some good, and the next generation will be happy. 
    They won't ask, "how did you do it? Did you get the resources from outside or inside? From white or black or yellow or green or in between?" No. They just want to hear that this problem, you have, you did something and it ended it. So what am I trying to say? The world is changing and we have a problem, and we may not know the kind of world that will be coming of less in the next 20, 50 years. It might be world whereby if you said, "oh, because I'm in America, we didn't do this" to stop it in Malawi, they will not, I don't know. They will, should I say pass your memory or cause I know that they will not be happy with you. Okay. 
    So it is important we understand this and look to the future and understand that if we're in a position to stop this, somewhere else, if we're in a position to use what we're doing in one part of the world to help end this in another part of the world, let's do it. You may never know, like I said it, nobody knew that I would ever get connected with what happen in Salem. Nobody. Yes, and this John Winthrop, Jr., I know in his widest imagination, he may not know that there's somebody like me, who looks like me, who might be talking about him today, and I want to let you know that the same thing applies to all of us listening to this. You may never know who might be there tomorrow thinking about this, honoring the efforts we are being made today. So let's make the efforts, if we can. Let's stop this, because we might actually be doing something that might resonate with us, whether we are in the U.S., whether in America or in Africa or in Europe.
    [00:36:32] Josh Hutchinson: Is there more that politicians in the United States and internationally can be doing right now?
    [00:36:40] Leo Igwe: Yes. I wish that they could do more. Yes, because I know that politicians getting them to do things is really hard. But of course, when, when they decide to do it, yes, it gets done at least a good one. As we saw in Connecticut.
    I want them, if they can, to take this resolution a bit further. Yeah, take it beyond the states, because I want us to put this on record. Witch-hunting is not a thing of the past in the United States. Yes, any politician. Because the next thing you're going to hear in the next few years when maybe cases start coming up, "oh, I didn't know. We didn't know this was going on." I'm telling you now. Listen to this program and understand now that witch-hunting is taking place in the US as we speak. And that politicians, they have demanded to help in putting place mechanisms that can save lives, protect the people, and guarantee a better and safer living of people in the communities. And they can do well if they can take this up and use it to send a very clear message, like I said. Yeah, I know they have done it at the state level. If they can take it a bit further, it'll very appreciative, because it'll keep sending the same message which they have sent in Connecticut, which is, "America, this belongs to our past." Yes. And whatever migration ways we get, it belongs to our past. Okay. And that can be a measure that can save America maybe millions or billions of dollars.
    Time to start investigating and start getting into a necessary debate that might border on racism, neocolonialism, and all that, because it might be affecting migrants. So let's have politicians who think ahead, that's a question. So politicians should not just only think back to understand what happened. They should also think ahead and put in place mechanisms that can also make sure that this doesn't repeat or if it is going on, it just fizzles, it just fits away. So they can do more. They can do more. And again, politicians are not operating in islands. 
    I'm attending a conference organized by Interparliamentary Union, IPU. Okay, so parliamentarians are here. Yeah. But they're organizing something on interfaith dialogue, and they're inviting humanists for the first time. So I am still trying to understand what so I don't want to rock the boat on my first invitation. So I'm coming down just to understand the landscape, because I will really bring this issue, but I don't want to bring it and get disinvited, and I'm again representing the humanist association. So I'm trying to understand this. 
    So parliamentarians work together. Politicians work together so they can use their network to also send a message to their colleagues and said, "what is going on? Do you need help? We can help you." So they can use their network to also address the problem. 
    The thing that, like I said, is that there's always this feeling that there's nothing we can do about it. Or even if we do something, it will not be effective. And this has made us to live with a situation, with a problem that we can solve, and this will made us to be ignorant of something we should know about. So there's a need for us to change this attitude. Politicians have to change this attitude. And it is only by changing this attitude, it's only by understanding that today politics is not just local. Politics is also global. And there's a lot we can do by tapping into those global mechanisms and dynamics to address problems like this, which are problems that could, may end up affecting us sometime. Yes. 
    Like I noted in one of my presentations, the migrant communities in the UK have recorded cases of witch-hunting, because many of them came with their churches, and these are witch-hunting churches, witch-exorcising churches. And from there, the whole thing started rolling in and of course the government went into it. They started an, in fact, they started a particular program, all sorts of things. Their metropolitan police, everybody got involved. Like I said, if they had acknowledged this and begin to address it, and all of that, I don't think it would've gotten to that. 
     Let's face the reality as it is, and I think that is how we can begin to address this problem in the 21st century manner. Yes. In a manner that suits this century with all the dynamics playing out today in the world.
    [00:41:42] Sarah Jack: I was wondering what does memorialization for modern victims, what should that look like? What should that be doing?
    [00:41:52] Leo Igwe: Is a question I've asked and of course I'm trying to get an answer first. Now, let me tell you the challenge we have. Like myself, I have not been able even to visit the sites of many of the modern victims, because it's always tense, because people might attack you, because they think you are behind the police officers, they're prosecution. Because when I'm moving police into those places, it becomes very tense. 
    I've not been able actually to go to pay personal tribute to these people to see their gravesite. The closest I have gone is the one I did in the US. So just to let you know how what happened in the US you know how I got connected, because many of those places when they happen, I move in with, I bring in the police, and the place become tense, so we cannot actually go in. In fact, some places, police officers could not go in. It was as bad as that. Not to talk of the person who is responsible for bringing the police officers. So first of all is that we have to create an environment where we can actually memorialize these people. That is the first step.
    Okay. Now doing that sends a message. Okay, because that's exactly one of the things I saw I'm going to be doing anywhere we are able to be sure it'll be safe or won't be able to do something there that when you finish it in the night, they will come and scatter it or destroy it and things like that. We will do it, because it sends a message, a very clear message, but sometimes there'll be resistance.
    Cause a lot of people don't want that message that this person should be honored, that this person, is like when you do it, like in my organization, they say you're encouraging it. Yes, you are supporting it, or you are one of them. Yeah. So many misconceptions will be rolling, in which mind, if you don't manage them very well, it turn to, it'll turn to violence. Memorializing, honoring their memory is something very important because of the messages we send, but we are still yet to get a clear one, because like now most of them, either the cases are in court, people are running away. If you come around there, you're a stranger, people run away, or people might harm you, or waylay you on the roads, attack you or kill you or things like that. So it is always very dangerous. 
    So it's something that we have to allow some time before we can begin that process. I'm also looking at something like having maybe a Memorial Day, something like that, whereby we could just meet in the city and invite family members. Okay. To come around and we talk about the people that passed away and what they're doing. So I'm thinking, like I said, it is still something I'm struggling to do. For now what is very likely is having something like a day or an event where we remember them. 
    Last year, we tried doing something like that, but we didn't call it memorial. We call it honoring our heroes. A lot of people, whistleblowers, people who tell us, who draw our attention to that. So we gave them a kind of an award, just incentivize so that people, when these things are happening, they'll be able to either to inform us or tell us. So that's a bit of what we did. And some of the victims we brought them, too. Some of the survivors, they now told us what they went through, what they passed through. So that's what we, that was. 
    We might bring in a layer of memorializing it, though just one day, whereby we might also get people from those families. The challenge we usually have is that people have so much trauma after this, because the direct descendant children are the people there, and sometimes they want to forget. They want to get over. They don't want to be recalling what their mother went through and all that. And I also don't want to be instrumental to getting them to relive what they feel they want to forget. So you can see the whole thing playing out now.
    I want to get my society to move fast to where you are now, but you know, It's gonna, it's not gonna be very easy, and all that. Again, I also would of course not create a situation that will make people traumatizing them more and all that if they want to forget it. We also, we always allow the family members to decide what to do. Yeah. If they don't want to come, that's fine. If they want to come, we give them the space, incentivize, and make them feel very good.
    So the memorial thing is something we will have to think of about carefully, but it'll help in sending a message, especially to the wider public, messages of deterrence, messages that, ah, don't do this thing. This is and all that. An indirect way of telling people, stop this. Yes. Without really going to there to tell them that. So it is something we have to think of carefully, think about carefully and plan in such a way that we can use it as a resource of education and a resource also of sending a message to the whole society. 
    [00:47:01] Josh Hutchinson: I think the delicateness that you're talking about, you have to be so sensitive to all these issues itself helps to bring alive how real this problem is and how it's not just in the past, because this is a very fresh wound, and new wounds are being added daily, unfortunately. So I think for, as an American who has that, this was 300 years ago mentality, that's impactful to me to know just how fresh these wounds are, how the tears are not dry.
    [00:47:50] Leo Igwe: Like I said, I'll think about it carefully and because many families of victims, they're always happy that people are honoring them or providing them the psychosocial support. They were, they're always very happy. But I'm trying to make sure we do it so we don't impose it on them. It's not like it's sound imposition, it is actually something that could help their healing. Yeah. So I'm always out of ideas when I meet them. Cause I don't know whether to cry. I don't know. I know what to, whenever I meet them, it is like, what do you want? I take them sometimes. So that, okay, you want me, I can put them out in a hotel for some days, just try to see how I can get them back to the normal all this day, because they're always very traumatized.
    So what I'm trying to say is that, yeah it is something that I will have to think about creatively and see how we can do it as part of an effort to provide them support, not necessarily against their will, get them to be reliving their trauma. Okay. Uhhuh. Yes. So it is, like I said, it's something I have to think about and and also we have to also do it in such a way that of course it doesn't provoke the situation.
    We move it away to a venue where we can bring them there, and we talk and we do our thing, and in fact, make sure it serves the goal. Which is to provide them some kind of closure, to provide them with some kind of support, and then send the message of deterrence to the wider community. I think for me, this is what I could see when it comes to this memorial thing, but we have to really plan it out very well to make sure that it achieves that goal.
    [00:49:30] Sarah Jack: That's very good. There's some similar dimensions when you look at the exoneration effort in Connecticut or any of the ones that have occurred in the United States. Some descendants, it's so traumatic and raw for, they really can't get involved, but they want to see it happen. So like after HJ 34 passed, we heard from so many descendants who were just, they were healing, because they saw that their ancestor, their name was made right. But they needed to do it outside of the action. They personally couldn't do more, because of how they were coping with that history. There's just all those different layers for different people. It's not the same. But I understand, I've learned from hearing from people that the trials have really affected descendants in different ways. Of course, living family members in Nigeria who are literally having their life and family torn apart from it, that is real life happening right now. But I see that over the timeline, over the world, these have really caused deep wounds and everybody comes to face it in a different way and heal. 
    [00:50:54] Leo Igwe: Everybody faces in a different way, and what we try to do is try to identify if anybody that is facing this in a way that connects with us at our campaign, and we try also to process it in a way that we don't hurt somebody else who is a process it differently. Yeah. So that is, is a delicate balancing we try to do, because sometimes even from the point of view, when it happens, immediately happens, let's say what I mean by when it happens is that, oh, somebody's killed. Sometimes some family members don't want, because whatever you're going to do will not bring the dead person to life, okay?
    But of course we tell them sometimes you can get a person to send a message that was, that's invaluable. Okay. But some of them cannot connect with that. Yes. Yeah, some of them cannot connect with that. So sometimes we might get one person, there was a particular family is only one person, and the lady who connected what we're doing, and we were able to provide a lot of help.
    So in fact this man was beaten, they wounded him, I think broke his arm or something, because of witch-hunting, and I wanted to capture his story. Okay. So he said he wasn't interested. He said he wasn't interested, that he has handed everything over to God, that God should be the one to pursue it. It pains me, but that's how he, that was how he wanted it. So that was how we stopped on that case.
    Another man came all the way to our event and sat very early before we even arrived at the event and was there, recounted his own story of what happened? He of course, his own, he was, it was the son that wanted to attack him and beat him and all that. So he was able to resist the son, and there was this kind of fight and the villagers came. So the son went and smashed the windscreen, the car, tried to vandalize and all that. So he came and narrated it and we were able to support him and just use that to send a message like we're saying, but that's what we used that for. But sometimes some people can't connect with that.
    And that's also is also hampering our ability sometimes to send a message to the wider public. Cause if we don't get these people to work with us, if we don't get these people to tell us the story, or even come out to tell the world their story. Because what happens there is that we hear the accusers. We hear them, the accusers. Very often we, we don't hear the accused. And even when you're hearing from the accuser, you will be hearing from a third party, "oh that woman said." Now the woman now be so traumatized to come out openly and tell the word, look at what happened. It takes a lot, sometimes even years before the person can be in the form to, even if, I mean you are calling the press, many of them get apprehensive. They think that you might be worsening their situation. So what I'm saying, I'm just confirming the fact that people relate with this differently, and we are also trying to navigate that. 
    Bear in the mind that we want to help these people. We don't want to harm them for that. Yeah. So we don't want to go about it in a way that we get them to feel hurt, so all, so what, that's why we have, I said we have to be very creative about it. Those who are ready to connect with us, we take them, we use their memory, we try to see what we can do. We use their stories. We go to the media, hoping that the message will keep going out.
    Then why we allow others to make sense of it, find closure in a way they want, so that we will not be like, maybe try end up maybe further traumatizing or interfering. Some of them feel that you are coming to interfere in what is actually their family thing, or they think that's something you want to make out of it. You want to use it for your own goal or I realize a particular thing. 
    So all these are complications. But what happens is that at the end of the day, a lot of people are appreciative of our intervention. They want the support, but sometimes how they relate with how we do, how we take that further, is different. And we always allow them to determine when they want us to stop, we stop and all that. But when those who want to continue with us, we'll continue, because we need them to tell the story in a way that a lot of people will connect better than when we actually tell their story on their behalf.
    [00:55:25] Josh Hutchinson: As we wrap up, is there anything in particular you wanted to be able to say today? Is there another message you have for our listeners?
    [00:55:36] Leo Igwe: The, I understand that, I mean our listeners mainly in the US I guess anything online, anybody can listen to it. So let me not be an old school kind of thing and say, because this is a podcast in the US it's going to be American listeners only. But what I'm trying to say is that we need to sit up, we need to see what we can do to address this problem, and we need to change our attitude, and you can do something.
    Just like we heard about the person who was accused or at a point acquitted and somebody had to take her in and protect her. Just hid her for some time or something like that. You can do something personal there that might change the trajectory when it comes to life, because witchcraft accusation is a life or death issue.
    You can do something there. Yes. And like I said, it might be something you take for granted, but it makes a whole lot of difference. Yes. You can share even the link, this very link, you can put it somewhere, you can share it in your apartment, there might be a conference coming up. You just put it out there.
    What am I saying? If you can help us send this message. I want people to now tell me, oh, I know that this is taking place. I want people to stop telling me I didn't know it's taking place. Now we have the internet. Now you can listen to this. So share the link.
    Let people get to know that it's taking place. So let's cross that, that this aspect, let's get over it and begin to say, okay, now it's taking place. What do we do? So that is one thing, I want our listeners to, see how, what they can do when it comes to that. We need to win this information war, and we need awareness war. So let everybody know that this is taking place.
    Now. But if you're also in the position of drawing attention of other departments, organizations, because a whole lot of organizations are doing all sorts of things in terms of development, in terms of human rights, in terms of education, in terms of women's rights and all that. Anything that has some, because witch hunt has so many connections, has connections with security, it has connections with law, it has connections with education. Cause when you look at it, when you go out and listen and watch this video, there must be an aspect of it that you feel connected. Do something about connection. Just do something, this is my message, is do something. Because you can do something, you can share this link, you can draw an attention of somebody, you can connect. 
    Like when I went to the the Salem Witch Museum? They told me the story. They told the story and ended up with McCarthy, some American thing like that. I was like, oh, hi guys. I don't get this. You're American. You know witch McCarthy, some kind of witch hunting stuff. I'm talking about real real thing. They're talking about politics. You know the thing, the witch hunting story ended up with something like politics. No, I couldn't connect. Immediately, it stopped being what it is in my own world. I couldn't connect with that. So I'm not saying that they should not do it, but let them restrict that as an American one and let them bring in what is going on that place. Let them mention it. You may not have the details, but mention it, because that it was totally absent in the museum.
    How do you expect people who get educated there to know that it's taking place today? So we still have work to do. So what I'm trying to draw attention is that there's a need for us to win this information war, this awareness war, this knowledge war, so that when we know this, we can now begin to look at tiny, little ways and actions we can take to begin to address it.
    Because there is still this sense people get, no matter how they divided the world, maybe, no matter how people talk about racism and all that, there is still that sense of human connection. And there's this sense I see in the face of a lot of people whom I don't know,. Sometimes I send them money either for medical bills after they're persecuted or I send them money to their relocation. You, when you meet some of them, you still see that connection. And I want to let you know that there are a lot of people who will appreciate whatever you do to help them out of what is actually a life and death situation. And some of the things you could do are actually things you might even take for granted, but which will resonate invaluably, which will change somebody's life in a way you could not imagine.
    So this is again, how the world as it is today puts us in a position to make a significant change in the life of somebody somewhere with something that my might appear so significant to us. This is our chance, this is our opportunity, and let's seize it. And just like the senators, the lawmakers in Connecticut, they seize this opportunity and passed the bill and passed the resolution and sent that clear message, overwhelmingly, when those campaigning were like a little worried that it may not happen. You can also create surprises in a way that will even maybe, I may not even, that will be beyond my expectation. By putting together efforts that can send a message that will resonate not only with victims, but also a lot of people who think that nothing can be done to significantly change what is going on in Africa and other parts of the world where witch-hunting is still an everyday reality.
    [01:01:26] Sarah Jack: So important, leo, thank you so much. One of the early things that I learned from you, from reading about you before I met you and our first episode where we met you and interviewed you was one of the things that you have just said how you cannot tell the victim stories like they can. And I, so early realized we cannot, I cannot, the podcast cannot tell the story of what's happening in your country and other parts of the world like you can, and you have done that. And I hope that we can keep giving you that opportunity. I hope that this conversation does go on to that next phase of information, the action phase. It needs to. And I think about how, even a year ago, so much, so many people were very unaware that Connecticut had witch trials. 
    And for the most part, now we aren't, we are not hearing as much, "they had witch trials?" Instead we're hearing, "oh, I want more information," "oh, my family lived in that town," "oh yes." We got over a hump. I know there are still people learning and figuring it out, but we definitely saw a transition in the education and I know that you are going to, that we are all going to see that with this global issue of the witch-hunt, too. I know we are.
    [01:02:55] Leo Igwe: And again, like I said this podcast may also sound like maybe something like a platform you just do it and put it out there. Is also important you understand that it's providing also a mechanism, a facility, of information. A lot of people might get to know what they never knew or might get to hear about what they never heard, or may we get to understand the urgency of something they take very lightly, and all that through this. So it, this is also serving, a very important function. And of course I will, I'll thank you Sarah. I thank you Josh for coming together and putting this putting this podcast together and providing this platform and doing this connection. I've said many times, there's always this disconnect. It's like we're talking about different things. That's what they tell us in the academic thing. They think we're talking about different things, and my mind is telling me we're not talking about different things, but they will tell you, okay, we're talking about different things. Explain it differently so that you get scholarship, you get funding, you get this thing when you say it's the same thing and all that, oh, and all that.
    So a lot of people keep struggling, misrepresenting situations and all that. From there, they make a profession out of misrepresenting the situation. Okay? We are talking about similar experiences. Yes, it may happen to people 300 years ago, but I'm not interested in those year argument. I'm interested that it happened and that people suffered this thing and are still suffering it today and that we should treat it with that same urgency, with that same pain and all that we relate to the one that happened there. 
    So what am I trying to say is that your podcast has also helped in giving me that sense of connection. I never found it in the lecture room. I never found it doing my research and all that, because I'm told to see Africa as unique and explain it that way and see how things are functioning for them and all that. But I decided to rebel against that and do it my thing the way I understand, and luckily I have you people now who can see how things are really coming together, and it is like giving me some sense of fulfillment and some sense of hope that at least I'm on track or we are on track at least towards containing this problem and drawing from the world's resources, because I told people the resources are there. There's a way you present a situation, you deny yourself of available resources that would've been there. So I am happy that at least we can pull resources together. We not be addressing the same thing the same way, but we may be addressing the same thing differently. But what is important? What will they ask us a hundred years from now? We don't know how the world will be. Whether the whole world will just be on one phone. If you're on phone, bam, you can talk to anybody like the way you talk to any, you know, and all that. They would say, this thing ended, and let them hear that we did our best. We didn't misrepresent the situation and refuse to use the resources that we have available to address a problem. I know that people when they understand that we tried to present this problem the way it is and use whatever we could east, west, north, and south to address this, and all that. And that we did not celebrate the memory of some people in some part of the world different from others, and all that. Yes, it is a collective memorization and that's a project I think, and I hope that you're going to send the right message, and that is why, once again I'm grateful for you people, for what you're doing and for giving me this platform and also for being very supportive.
    [01:06:22] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much for joining us.
    [01:06:24] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary. 
     
    [01:06:35] Mary Bingham: It was an amazing gift to spend an entire day with Dr. Leo Igwe last May. Listening to his stories regarding how he and his organization help people brutally targeted for unfounded accusations of witchcraft have made a life-giving impact for me. I consider Dr. Igwe's enthusiasm to end witch hunts very infectious. I have made it my mission to continue to follow his mission and spread information regarding ongoing, real witch hunts on all of my social media platforms, hopefully furthering this education on my own, as well as through the organization of which I am a part. That will help Dr. Igwe to save lives from the hands of those who maliciously track people down, beat and murder these innocent women, children, and men.
    Another activist I hope to meet someday is Monica Paulus. Monica grew up no stranger to violence in Simbu province of New Guinea. After discovering she in fact had rights as a human being, Monica challenged herself by moving forth to eventually defend women and children who suffered abuse due to accusations of sorcery. Monica knew how to get involved to get things done. Her involvement with certain groups led to the government to allocate 3 million Papua New Guinea kinas to set up committees. That amount is equal to about 842,000 US dollars. These committees were to address sorcery-related violence. 
    Monica's life has been threatened many times. Threats have even come from her own family members. She was told to move many times or else get killed. But Monica soldiered on to save others. In Monica's own words, she says, and I quote, "we really need each other at all levels. Human rights is everyone's business," end quote. On the ground, Monica has taken women and children accused of sorcery-related acts into her home for their safety, providing food, clothing, and shelter, even when she did not have much of those items to offer. Monica also helps to bring their accusers to justice in some cases. 
    To learn more about this extraordinary woman, visit stopsorceryviolence.org. In addition, please visit allegedwitches.law.blog to read more about Advocacy for Alleged Witches, the organization founded by Dr. Leo Igwe. Also I, along with Josh and Sarah, strongly encourage the listeners to visit endwitchhunts.org, the organization of which we three are a part. Any donation or purchase you would make could help to save a life. Thank you.
     
    [01:09:46] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    [01:09:48] Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News. 
     
    [01:10:08] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts is a nonprofit 501(c)(3). Here's our weekly news update.
    Here's a course that introduces the study of beliefs and practices past and present associated with magic, witchcraft, spirituality, magical realism, and religion. It's called Witches, Bruxas, and Black Magic. These topics are discussed and include ritual, symbolism, mythology, altered states of consciousness, and healing, as well as syncretism, change, and the social roles of these beliefs and practices. 
    Stay tuned to where you can enroll for this online class.
    On May 25th, 2023, the Connecticut General Assembly passed House Joint Resolution 34, Resolution Concerning Certain Witchcraft Convictions in Colonial Connecticut. This legislation cleared the names of the innocent accused witches of Connecticut Colony. This milestone resolution passed when the majority of the House, 80%, voted yes on May 10th to pass it to the Senate. Then on the 25th, the Connecticut Senate voted almost unanimously yes, only one senator voted no, completing the passage of HJ 34.
    This resolution was successful due to years of collective attempts and efforts from many, many local politicians and residents, witch trial descendants, and advocates from across the United States and the globe. It took every layer of efforts to get this done. Many individuals started it, many carried it, and many finished it. 
    So, since efforts for witch trial exoneration in Connecticut over the past decades were blocked at every turn, why did the renewed efforts in 2022 move so swiftly? Why did the witch trial victims officially receive state acknowledgement as innocent now within a year? How did this landmark legislation acknowledging innocence of Connecticut Colony's indicted and hanged accused witches gain wide legislative support?
    Because a collective group of bipartisan legislators stood together against the witch-hunt mentality. The leaders of the state of Connecticut took a stand together for historic social justice. The mentality that targets vulnerable people, often women and children for the unprovable crime of causing harm and mischief through witchcraft . Not one case of such witchcraft accusation has ever been true, yet thousands and thousands have been punished and killed for it. Yes, annually thousands and thousands continue to be punished and killed for it in over 60 countries. 
    You have been transformed by the teaching of witch trial history, and you realize now how witch hunts happen is not a mystery. Why vulnerable people are hunted is not confusing. You may have realized the cause of witch-hunt mentality through research, reading, listening to podcasts and hearing academic presentations. There are ample trusted records that teach us about the societal stresses that press a community and influence panic and uproar around devastations that turn into witch targeting.
    Remember the university class I announced at the opening of the weekly news update, WGS 4301 Special Topics: Witches, Bruxas, and Black Magic? It's actually no longer available. Fearful alumni of Texas Tech University reacted with moral panic to the offering of this type of common academic sociology and history curriculum on witchcraft-related topics. This Texas Tech course was erased from the online catalog because of the uproar of alumni. To be clear, this class is not an initiation into witchcraft practices that are feared to cause harm and misfortune.
    History is record and sociology is science. We need academics to include both so that we act with knowledge, not fear, around witch trial and witchcraft topics. The modern crisis of witch attacks can only be faced and solved when we understand our history and our societal beliefs collectively. Banning this class is a moral panic that perpetuates the fears that cause violence against alleged witches. 
    Stand up for social science. Stand up for the vulnerable. Look into what you don't know and seek to understand from what we should know about history. 
    Today you were reminded about the ongoing mob witch hunts that are killing and violently abusing extensive numbers of women, men, and children in dozens of countries now. There are more victims now than ever before in the history of humanity. You are aware of the urgency. You understand the pressing demand for immediate interventions. Respond to the call for worldwide collective action against which fear. State Representative Jane Garibay is quoted as rightly saying, quote, "people working together achieve great success." Join the ones who are working to create safety for the vulnerable citizens in our world communities. You raise awareness with transformative conversations through the power of your social reach. Engaging in, quote, "the study of beliefs and practices past and present" is history and sociology. It is academic.
    Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast supports the global efforts to end modern witch hunts. Get involved. Financially support our nonprofit initiatives to educate and intervene. Visit endwitchhunts.org to make a tax-deductible contribution. You can also support us by purchasing books from our bookshop, merch from our Zazzle shop, or subscribing as a Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast Super Listener for as little as $3 a month at thoushaltnotsuffer.com. 
     
    [01:15:32] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    [01:15:34] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    [01:15:36] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to this important episode of Thou Shalt Not Suffer.
    [01:15:41] Sarah Jack: Take action to end witch hunts.
    [01:15:44] Josh Hutchinson: Start by telling your friends about what you heard today.
    [01:15:48] Sarah Jack: And go back and listen to episode 16, Leo Igwe on Witch Hunts in Nigeria.
    [01:15:54] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for taking action this week.
    [01:15:57] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
    [01:16:02] Josh Hutchinson: Have a productive today and an impactful tomorrow.