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  • Stacy Schiff on the Salem Witch Trials

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    Show Notes

    Pulitzer-prize-winning author Stacy Schiff joins hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack for a dive into the heart of the Salem Witch Trials on this week’s episode of Witch Hunt. Celebrated for her book, The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem, Stacy sheds light on the trials’ misunderstandings, explores their actual origins, and spotlights the pivotal individuals involved. Her insights and story telling make history accessible and engaging. Together, they reflect on the timely relevance of lessons learned from the Salem Witch Trials. 

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    Transcript

    Stacy Schiff: [00:00:00] There had been witchcraft accusations before, there had been outbreaks of witchcraft before. Never before had there been this kind of prosecution where no one who walked into that courtroom exited innocent. 
    Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt. I'm Josh Hutchinson, but you can also call me excited. We get to talk about Salem today!
    Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. In this episode, we are joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Stacy Schiff.
    Josh Hutchinson: Schiff is the author of six books, including The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem.
    Sarah Jack: In this exciting conversation, Stacy clears up some major misconceptions about the witch hunt.
    Josh Hutchinson: And reviews many of the theories [00:01:00] that have been proposed to explain what started the witch hunt.
    Sarah Jack: And you're about to hear the factors that really did shape the witch hunt.
    Josh Hutchinson: And we'll learn about many significant actors, including Tituba, in this conversation with discussion of the roles that they played.
    Sarah Jack: It was such a treat to get to hear about her research process and approach to making historical events so understandable.
    Josh Hutchinson: Together, we reflect on key lessons from the Salem witch hunt.
    Sarah Jack: Welcome Stacy Schiff, Pulitzer Prize-winning author known for her compelling narratives and deep research into historical events and figures. Her notable works include The Witches: Suspicion, Betrayal, and Hysteria in 1692 Salem.
    Sarah Jack: What are some major misconceptions people have about the Salem Witch Trials?
    Stacy Schiff: Oh, my goodness, it's such a, it's a long and distinguished list, isn't it? I think generally people tend to [00:02:00] assume that people burned, not hanged. So I think that's the first one. I think the general assumption is that all the victims were women, but as we know, five men were also victims that year. They were not universally poor women, they were not older women. They were, there was a 5-year-old accused as well.
    Stacy Schiff: Because I think we take a lot of what we understand to have been the history from Arthur Miller, I think we have assumed that voodoo and naked dancing in the forest were part of it, and that's taken from The Crucible, either the play or the movie, not from the actual events of 1692. And I think the word Salem is slightly misleading because 25 communities wind up being implicated, being involved in any case, not only the town of Salem. And I guess the biggest misconception is that there were witches, of which there were none.
    Josh Hutchinson: And what are some of the theories about how the Salem witch hunt happened?
    Stacy Schiff: I think that the epidemic that year, the panic that year, has been pretty much written down [00:03:00] to anything you can possibly think of, from regional hostilities, to class conflict, to tensions within the church, to food poisoning, to teenage hysteria, to fraud, to taxes, political instability, trauma due to the frontier with the Native Americans, the weather. You could go mad actually staring at the events and trying to pick a pattern. As with all things, if you're really looking for a pattern, you can almost always find one, which is something of a key to what happens that year.
    Stacy Schiff: So I think many of those things have been applied and then discarded. And I think we can get into this. One of the issues, of course, with that year is that so many forces come into play that it isn't predominantly actually one thing. There isn't a key. As much as we would like for there to be one, there isn't a key to the Salem witch epidemic of that year.
    Sarah Jack: And how did you manage to clarify the true causes behind the witch trials? You made them so easy to understand for the readers, despite the reputation for [00:04:00] the mystery and the complexity.
    Stacy Schiff: Thanks Sarah, that's a lovely, it's a lovely way to put it. I hope it's clear. I think what I did is that when I started the research, I read through all of the paper that survives, and it's about a thousand pages of, as the court papers are missing, but we have about a thousand pages of arrest documents or depositions or jailers' accountings. We have about a thousand pages of paper, and I read through all of that, and try to make that material really speak for itself in some way, because you can see the story mutating from beginning to end. What initially passes for witchcraft when the first girls are afflicted is not what will be discussed as witchcraft by late summer when this thing has really snowballed to just tremendous effect. So you can begin to tease out who's carrying the narrative and how the narrative twists and turns and what the sources of that are.
    Stacy Schiff: And I guess to that end, I would say 2 things. I would say. I went back and I read all [00:05:00] eight or nine, I can't remember any longer, volumes of the records and files of the quarterly courts of Essex County, which is not, it's to the years prior to 1692, but it is a complete record of all of the, these are very litigious people, these are all of the collisions in court that all of these families had over these years. And the same issues and the same names come up as you will later see in some of the witchcraft accusations. So that was almost like a template to both the sensibility and the history of these people.
    Stacy Schiff: It's interesting that about half of the women who hang had been accused previously of witchcraft. There's obviously some lingering resentment or some lingering questions here. And then the other, from a textual point of view, the other great guide was the writings of Cotton Mather, the minister who's at the center, the young minister who is at the center of the trials, and who had written a bestseller in which he had incorporated an account of the European witchcraft, Swedish witchcraft panic of years earlier, which [00:06:00] infiltrates the New England drinking water and which bears a mark on Salem. I think there's actually, I think, a great doctoral thesis to be written about this, because he imports elements from Sweden that had never before been seen in any kind of New England witchcraft testimony.
    Stacy Schiff: That's a long answer to your extremely good question, but that was how I began to decode it. You can see, I read all of the sermons that the girls would have heard that year, and you can see bits and pieces of that sermon in their testimony. You can see that they're recycling the imagery that they've heard on Sundays.
    Josh Hutchinson: And what were some of the factors which actually did lead to the Salem witch trials?
    Stacy Schiff: Guess the chief ones, this is an overdetermined event. It's very hard, as I said, to tease one thing or another thing out. I would say more than anything, the question that year becomes not what was afflicting these young women, but why was the court so intent on prosecution?
    Stacy Schiff: Because there had been witchcraft accusations before, there had been outbreaks of witchcraft before. Never before had there been this kind of [00:07:00] prosecution where no one who walked into that courtroom exited innocent. And for that, I would say that it was something of the political environment which makes that year stand apart. You have on this court a group of men who, for reasons of their own, given political instability of the previous few years, need to prove they are a law and order administration. And in particular, the Chief Justice of the Court, who has been something of a political, he's been very ambidextrous politically. He's played both sides repeatedly. needs to prove that he is solely in command and is not going to relax his hold. And he is the one who's pushing, it's very clear to us, he's the one who's pushing for convictions. So I think that the politics is something that we haven't necessarily paid enough attention to in the past.
    Stacy Schiff: I think, as I said, some of those earlier accusations, some of that sense of suspicion that had never really been dissipated before. And you really do have a community that's very much under fire. Salem Village, which is where the first girls begin to show [00:08:00] signs of some sort of affliction of some disorder, is a village that has had serious trouble with its ministers, and in different ways, all of those prior ministers will play a role in what happens this year, but the minister in whose household the witchcraft, so to speak, breaks out, is under siege with his, in his community. He's at war with his parishioners and he's very much driving these events forward in some ways.
    Sarah Jack: Were there any other primary actors who caused the witch trials to proceed as they did? And if you're interested in following that with what halted the witch trials?
    Stacy Schiff: So yeah, I think you could probably draw something of a schematic if you wanted to just take like the, how does this thing snowball? What are the bases it has to hit, to, to produce this storm of accusations? And I think household under siege, obviously, it's a hothouse environment. You have these girls living in a situation where they can see that their father and uncle is in disfavor with the community, [00:09:00] so there's a sense of an explosion within that household. One of the first people accused, as you know, was Tituba, the Indian slave in the household. And Tituba's testimony is so vivid and so kaleidoscopic and so convincing that once she, and moreover, she establishes, she's the one of the only one of the three first accused who says, yes, witchcraft was at work. Yes, I flew on a pole to Boston with my accomplices. And moreover, I saw these spectral cats. It's a crazy testimony. Once she has established in the eyes of the community that witchcraft has been at work, it's very hard for anybody to reverse course. So that's another sort of post on the way. And then one of the first girls who testifies, a teenager named Abigail Hobbs, who's the bad girl of Topsfield, she then spreads the accusations out beyond Salem Village, because she suddenly points a finger to, toward a former minister of the town, of the village, in fact.
    Stacy Schiff: And so there you begin [00:10:00] to see that the thing has tentacles, and it begins to spread beyond the immediate household. And then I guess the, I should add actually, Thomas Putnam, one of the villagers, who has had a run of terrible luck, and who will complain against, I think, 35 of the ultimate accused witches, and who will file the first charges, he does something as well to help this thing explode. And then from the other side, you have the head of the witchcraft court, Stoughton, and you have Cotton Mather, who's always in the background, trying very hard to help advise the court, but always in a way that seems to press them toward prosecution. As much as he's pretending to be even handed, he seems quite intent on somehow exorcising this ill and purifying the community. So you have these other forces that are both massaging the narrative and enforcing the prosecution.
    Josh Hutchinson: It's hard to say what single element shuts down the prosecution. A [00:11:00] number of things happen, and I think the timing is crucial, as well. The trials, the witchcraft breaks out in late January, early February. The trials take place largely over the summer. And by fall, the accusations have begun to spread in every direction.
    Stacy Schiff: We've got to the point where it is far easier to accuse someone else or to confess than it is to claim your innocence. And so obviously in that situation, the snowballing is out of control. It's also, however, the fall, which is traditionally the season when you wanted to make sure that you had plenty of stores in your cellar and you were ready for the winter, and so the interest in spending all day in witchcraft courtrooms tended to wane a little bit. So it may be that a healthy dose of skepticism begins to creep in for practical reasons.
    Stacy Schiff: It's also true that the newly appointed, newly installed Massachusetts governor is not a Puritan. He doesn't buy into these trials the way the other authorities had, and he reaches out late that year to the New York ministers to get their opinion on what's happening in [00:12:00] Salem. And that's the first attempt to go beyond the kind of monolith, which is the New England establishment. And their opinion is very different from what the judges in Massachusetts are hearing. So you get this outside opinion, as well.
    Stacy Schiff: And slowly but surely you get people in the community, and Thomas Brattle would be the best instance of this. He's a 35-year-old Boston merchant who doesn't have any relationship to any of the other well born justices, which is unusual, because they are a very inbred, familiar group one to the other, and who realizes that basically if someone gives testimony with her eyes closed, she's not observing what's happening, she's imagining something, and sees that a great miscarriage of justice is taking place and will be very hard to erase from history and very quietly, and in fact anonymously, he writes a small pamphlet about the court's proceedings, and he is one of two voices.
    Stacy Schiff: There's a Boston minister as well, also very quietly, who will begin to speak up against the trials, and it may be that at that point, the [00:13:00] accusations have just reached a very high level, and too many important people have been implicated. It may just be that it begins to stretch the imagination. At first, there had been 5 witches, and then there had been 10 witches, and suddenly there were 500 witches.
    Stacy Schiff: And it may be, it's as if suddenly everyone awoke from this great delirium is what it does begin to feel like. But even at that juncture, there are two things that are interesting. One is that Stoughton, the Chief Justice, is unwilling to shut down the court, and he has to be forced to shut down the court, because he's convinced still of his rectitude and of the court's probity in prosecuting.
    Stacy Schiff: And secondly, and this, I think, is something we tend to lose sight of. The belief in witchcraft will persist well after the trials. People believe that they themselves were innocent or that the accused that year were innocent, but they don't yet lose their faith in witchcraft. It's an interesting thing where the trials end, but there is still this lingering sense that there was something supernatural at work.
    Josh Hutchinson: And there's still a lot of supernatural [00:14:00] explanations for Salem. Sarah was talking to somebody the other day who was asking, did they have powers?
    Stacy Schiff: When you see, when you begin to read the testimony in court, I don't know if you all have household mysteries the way we do, but the kitchen scissors always goes missing. Who's got the kitchen scissors? You begin to realize how much can be explained by witchcraft. It's such an elastic and versatile definition, and especially in a world where you didn't have science, where you couldn't explain illness, where weather was not something you could understand, much less control, where things seem to happen in the night, where there was a lot of drinking, by the way, where the dark was very dark, where you had Native Americans or people with whom you were at, with whom you had conflicts at your doorstep, you can see how this would be the perfect cauldron in which to dissolve your questions.
    Sarah Jack: How should Tituba's station in life and experiences, especially in contrast to those of the Puritan [00:15:00] women, inform our understanding of her role in the witch trials?
    Stacy Schiff: Three women are initially accused, and they are the three most obvious women one would have chosen. One is a, one is a woman who's homeless, one is a woman who'd been at, who had sued multiple times and was in disfavor in the community, and the third was Tituba, who's who's the household slave.
    Stacy Schiff: And who would have had more, she's the only one of the three, as I said, who actually confesses that she is involved in something satanic, and would have had more reason, obviously, than either of the other two women, to give these men in authority what they were looking for. It's really clear when you look at the papers, how much these young women, in particular, how much all the youngsters really were cowed by these men in authority. These were the most eminent men in town. They lived in the most beautiful homes. They dressedwith the greatest of fashion. And their authority would've been something very difficult to resist for anyone but much less someone who was a slave.
    Stacy Schiff: Tituba [00:16:00] has every reason to cough up this extraordinary tale about yellow birds and flying cats and flying off to Boston on a pole. She makes it very clear that the devil has said that if she talked about this, he would slice off her head. So she sounds like she's terrified of something anyway and that testimony possibly was beaten out of her, but even if it wasn't beaten out of her, there's one hint that perhaps it may have been.
    Stacy Schiff: Those men knew what they were about to hear, because there were at least three people sitting in the room that day waiting for her to testify. So they knew that this was the goldmine, that she was going to be the witness who was going to make this thing real. It's very hard to believe she would have had any grounds with which to resist them given her station in life.
    Josh Hutchinson: Very true. And I have to fess up that my great grandfather, Joseph Hutchinson, was one who filed the complaint along with Thomas Putnam.
    Stacy Schiff: I love that. [00:17:00] Wait, are you related to Thomas Hutchinson, too?
    Josh Hutchinson: No there's the. Yeah, Salem Hutchinsons and Boston Hutchinsons, and so far, genetically, nobody's found a DNA connection between the two. Anyways, what key lessons should be learned from the Salem witch hunt and applied today?
    Stacy Schiff: I suppose we should avoid jumping to conclusions. This is what happens when fear paralyzes reason and when we overcorrect and sort of overanalyze and, I guess what the best that could be said for this real mishap, this tragedy, is that it should serve as a sort of vaccine for us all. We have this instance in our record. We should be looking at it and using it when we think we might be heading in this direction. So we don't end up with McCarthyism, basically. We've seen this, we've seen the dynamic so vividly so often. And it is so clearly where you end up going if you head down the road of conspiratorial thinking. This is the end of the road.
    Stacy Schiff: And, as early as [00:18:00] really Thomas Brattle's writings that year, people were very aware of the fact that this was something that was going to be a stain on history, and that was going to be there a blinking red light or a guardrail for future times, which is a, which is indeed how we should be looking at it.
    Stacy Schiff: It's always been interesting to me, it's very much in line with Richard Hofstadter's Paranoid Style in American Politics, but it doesn't figure in that book. But it really is the beginning of that this overheated rhetoric and the need, this tribal need to prosecute in some way and the inability to basically defer to reason when you realize that the reasonable is actually the right solution, somehow the complicated answer seems somehow like the more appealing answer often.
    Sarah Jack: I wanted to talk a little bit about how you brought out some really strong themes in your book, like the darkness or the tension between people's expectations and disappointments with each other. What, how did you [00:19:00] draw those out into the forefront of your book?
    Stacy Schiff: I don't know that I have an exact answer for you. I think what was important to me was to get beyond the theory. I wanted the reader to feel something of what it was like to be in New England in the 17th century, and that is why the darkness became such an obsession of mine, because so much of the testimony is based on a man trying to find his way home from the inn at night and being able to, unable to maneuver through the trees and, therefore, assuming the trees have moved, not that he might have had a few too many drinks earlier himself. But that the darkness is just constant and a sort of disability almost to everyone. So I wanted to bypass the theory at the early end of the book, leave all the explanations to the end, which may or may not have been successful, but just to plunge the reader immediately into what it felt like.
    Stacy Schiff: That's why the book begins with Ann Foster, who, and I think I read fairly early on of Ann Foster, who's this older, Andover [00:20:00] farm woman who testifies in court under oath to the fact that she flew through the air on a pole, and moreover, not only flew through the air on a pole, but crash landed. I wanted the reader to think what would possess a person to swear to that under oath? How could you be so certain that this had happened and even tell the authorities about the cheese and bread you had put in your pocket before your flight? So I just wanted to literally plunge right into that New England feel and into this, into where, how a person could wind up believing that of herself, or at least believing that if she swore to that, she was telling the truth.
    Josh Hutchinson: On the flying, you had mentioned the Swedish witch trials before, and is the flying, did that come from Sweden?
    Stacy Schiff: Oh, I'm so glad you asked because I should have mentioned that, Joshua. Yes, there had never, witches in New England had never flown before 1692. So there were two things that were new. Basically the whole, and I should have gone back to mention this, the whole question of what was a [00:21:00] witch? A witch was basically a devil's accomplice who's target wasn't your body, but your soul. She or he was there to do the devil's work with her little menagerie of helpers who were generally cats and dogs and toads and all the diabolical creatures we can imagine, but the idea of a pact with the devil was very much an Anglo-Saxon concept, while the idea of a witch being able to fly to do her business was not. That was a continental witch.
    Stacy Schiff: And continental witches tended to be much more exotic creatures. They engaged in all kinds of sexual acts. Puritan witches never engaged in sexual acts. And they did not have, Anglo-Saxon witches did not have a satanic Sabbath. That, too, was a continental idea. So both the flying and the satanic Sabbath came to New England, it seems to me, through the writings of Cotton Mather, who wrote about that Swedish outbreak of witchcraft, which almost completely parallels what happens in Salem down to the ages of [00:22:00] the first girls who are afflicted, first children who are afflicted, and with very similar results, in fact, in that innocents die. But those two concepts were something that were entirely foreign to previous, both the lore of witchcraft in New England, and to previous witchcraft testimony.
    Sarah Jack: Having written extensively on various historical figures and events, how does your latest project, The Revolutionary: Samuel Adams, compare to your other works in terms of research challenges or thematic focus and the narrative approach you take?
    Stacy Schiff: That's a big question, Sarah. To start with the thematic piece, there's a funny footnote in a way to the, with the American Revolution in that Salem lives on. And that's an interesting thing with Salem generally is to see how it then gets recycled and used by different parts of the country.
    Stacy Schiff: Abolitionists will end up saying that basically slavery is on par with, essentially, hanging witches and pro slavery people in the South will basically point to New England and say abolition is on [00:23:00] par with, and they'll say the opposite. So both sides will end up going back to cite Salem witchcraft.
    Stacy Schiff: But in the run up to the Revolution, as Stamp Act protests and other protests take off, an extraordinary number of people compare the moment to the delusion of 1692. So you get this constant drumbeat of things that there has never been this much unrest. There has never been such delusion. People have never been so mad since the Bedlam of 1692. And it's just funny to see that there's a comparison between Stamp Act protests and trying witches in the court in Salem town.
    Stacy Schiff: From a research point of view, I was at a great loss, because although there are things missing from the Salem record, Samuel Adams' papers are very incomplete. He destroyed a lot of paper, because he needed to destroy his trail, because he's obviously fomenting revolution. So there is a no fingerprint school at work here, and I was working from a somewhat mutilated record for that reason. So that was a big challenge, and a challenge that I ended up filling by reading a [00:24:00] lot in the archives in London, which are essentially what his enemies were saying about him. So he would never claim credit, for example, for some misdeed, some street protest or street ambush. But you can be certain that the customs commissioners in Boston or the Lieutenant Governor in Boston was writing back to London saying, 'let me tell you what this rascal Samuel Adams is up to this week.'
    Stacy Schiff: So I ended up being able to fill in a certain amount of his whereabouts and his machinations from the other side, with a grain of salt, I should add. And there was a great deal. I think this is a big difference between the two. There's a great deal of Adams in the newspapers, because he's writing constantly for the Boston newspapers, and one of the reasons the Revolution takes off, as it does from Boston, is because there are so many newspapers and such a literate populace.
    Stacy Schiff: And that, in a funny way, is a fallout from something that was true in 1692. You didn't have newspapers in 1692, but you did have a highly literate populace, because in order to pray, you needed to know how to read. And it is, in [00:25:00] a funny way, that very erudition that fuels the Salem Witch epidemic, because people have bought into this library of books which Cotton Mather brings to the forefront and which these men are consulting.
    Stacy Schiff: And so they have these shelves of literature on witchcraft. What they don't have are the skeptical texts on witchcraft, because those had been banned from coming into Boston. So in a funny way, you have a case of too much erudition. But anyway, it's that very, it's that literate tradition which flows obviously from one book to the other.
    Josh Hutchinson: And Cotton Mather, ironically, spurred a lot of the activity on by writing about the other events. So you have the Swedish trials and the Goodwin case, and they're all feeding into the behaviors of these afflicted people. So Cotton was involved from the beginning, I suppose.
    Stacy Schiff: It's funny, the court appeals to him, I think, three times. I'm now forgetting, but I think it's three times. And [00:26:00] three times, he basically says, you need to go very carefully, you need to exercise exquisite caution. And then he adds, nevertheless, I would vote for a speedy and vigorous prosecution. And there's always that nevertheless attached to each of his statements. And after the trials, there is a document and I no longer remember if it's 1694 or if it's later, where he talks about how essentially the trials had done good, because they had filled the pews, and they had awakened a sluggish generation to its faith, and really nobody who mattered had been lost in the process. It's not a statement had been meant for public consumption, but it tells you something of how the establishment viewed both the victims and the prosecution.
    Josh Hutchinson: It's remarkable.
    Sarah Jack: How do you hope your books impact reader understanding of history and its relevance to the present?
    Stacy Schiff: I called the trials a kind of vaccine. I like to think this is something of which we don't lose sight, so that we do not repeat this kind of [00:27:00] demented behavior, but generally, on a sort of happier front, I'd like to think that there's something about biography that allows one to open the window to history from a more personal point of view. In other words, through the sensibility of the individual in question, so that if you can see something like the strains and the tensions in the family of someone like Samuel Adams, you can begin to understand why someone would feel so deeply wed to American rights and privileges and so deeply sensitive to British overreach, and therefore begin to publish the kind of supposedly seditious statements that he publishes, and really spearhead what becomes a revolution. Why this cause becomes so very vital to him. And you don't really understand that if you don't really understand sort of the personal history that goes behind it. And I think we lose that sometimes when we talk about history from a higher altitude. I think when you're seeing it through the sensibility of one person, whether that person is [00:28:00] Cleopatra or Samuel Adams, you begin to understand those forces better.
    Josh Hutchinson: And what subjects or events are you drawn to explore next? Is there anything that you can tell us about?
    Stacy Schiff: I am working on a new book. Interestingly or not, it's actually a return to a subject, something I've never done before, it's a book about, it's another book about Benjamin Franklin, and this time it's about, the previous time I had written about the almost nine years that Franklin spends in France soliciting aid and and guns and men for the revolution, and he comes home in 1785 from that stint and will die in 1790. So this is a book which is going to tell the story of his life through those last five Philadelphia years. So it's really sort of the finale. It's Franklin's last act in a way.
    Josh Hutchinson: I'm looking forward to that.
    Stacy Schiff: Thank you. So am I. I'm looking forward to having written it, to being on the other side of it.
    Sarah Jack: Thank you for your work in your book, but your work today too, [00:29:00] the getting this information out and dissecting it like this is just really key for the world. So I know it sounds dramatic, but
    Stacy Schiff: No, it's not. And the one thing we didn't talk about, and to your point, is the silence that comes, that descends after this wipe out, right? Because for a generation, nobody would talk about it. Exoneration was impossible, because people were unwilling even to admit that they were related to victims of the trials.
    Stacy Schiff: So you, even in those first, attempts So when you look at attempts at getting reparations for families in 1711, families avoiding the word witchcraft. It's basically, I lost my relative in the recent unpleasantness is essentially what they're saying. And that whole sort of cushion of shame and regret that falls, guilt that descends on the scene afterwards means that so much has been lost to us, so much of the history has been lost to us, so much of the record goes missing, because everyone just wanted to pretend this had [00:30:00] never happened.
    Stacy Schiff: And I guess that's why, when we're saying this is really crucial for us to bring back to the forefront, there's your reason.
    Stacy Schiff: And now, for Minute with Mary.
    Mary Louise Bingham: Let me update you about Female Gleason. We found that Susanna, wife of Thomas Gleason. All the records were found proving she lived at Cambridge in 1665, when she was supposed to have been accused for witchcraft. However, the author who listed a Female Gleason accused for witchcraft in their book did not cite their source. We have reached out to that author, who has yet to respond. However, our team didn't stop. Contact was made with both the Massachusetts State Archives and the Judicial Archives. These archivists exhausted all their resources and could not locate any document tying an accusation to any woman with the surname Gleason.
    Mary Louise Bingham: Therefore, until we [00:31:00] hear from this author, it can be declared as of this recording that no woman named Gleason was ever accused of witchcraft who lived at Cambridge, Massachusetts, or in any surrounding town. This is why looking at the original source or primary document is so important. Thank you.
    Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    Josh Hutchinson: Sarah has End Witch Hunts News.
    Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts News. We want to extend our heartfelt gratitude to each and every one of you for your unwavering support for this growing nonprofit. Your monetary donations and the invaluable time you've dedicated as volunteers have been pivotal in fueling the growth of our vital projects. It's through your contributions of time and money that we're able to continue our mission, bringing to light critical lessons from history, and fostering a deeper acknowledgment of witch-hunting today.
    Sarah Jack: Your involvement not only aids in amplifying this history, but [00:32:00] also in ensuring that the lessons derived from it resonate far wide and clearly. Thank you for being an integral part of our journey and for your commitment to helping us make a meaningful impact worldwide. Your engagement is what makes all of this possible, and we're immensely grateful for the community we've built together.
    Sarah Jack: We're thrilled to announce the upcoming Salem 101 series on witch hunt podcasts. This original series is a comprehensive deep dive into the Salem witch trials written by Josh Hutchinson, also known as @salemwitchhunt on social media, each episode promises to peel back the layers of this unmatched account of community betrayal, guided by the records and writings that have propelled the story to this day. Join us, Salem Witch Trial Descendants, as we examine the year these events unfolded. Join us as we look closely at the fascinating individuals that many of us call ancestors. We will tackle the pressing questions that have intrigued the world, revealing insights that have led to the [00:33:00] current understanding of the Salem Witch Trials. For those eager to broaden their knowledge, we encourage you to explore our past catalog of episodes. These recordings offer an insightful introduction to the subject and cover witch trials that predate Salem, setting the stage for this monumental series.
    Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
    Sarah Jack: Join us again every week.
    Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
  • Newcastle Witch Trials with Dr. Katie Liddane

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    Show Notes

    In this week’s captivating episode, we are excited to welcome Dr. Katie Liddane, an expert in the History and Heritage of Witch Hunting in the North East of England. Katie takes us through her research and her dedicated efforts to illuminate the Newcastle Witch Trials. We delve into why the Newcastle Witch-Hunt remains less known compared to events like the Pendle Witch-Hunt and discuss Newcastle Castle’s creative approach to engaging the community with workshops on witch trial history. Katie also talks about her active role in creating a memorial for the victims of the Newcastle witch trials, stressing the importance of community involvement and historical fidelity. She sheds light on the necessity of merging historical accuracy with the pop-cultural fascination with witchcraft to fully honor and recognize the humanity of the accused. Join us as we explore an intricate blend of history, memory, and cultural engagement in remembering past witch hunts.

    Newcastle Castle

    The Newcastle Witches Podcast

    Walking with Witches by Lynn Huggins-Cooper

    End Witch Hunts

    Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project

    Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project

    Witch Hunt

    Transcript

    Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, where we unravel the complex global history of witch trials. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
    Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we are excited to bring you a special discussion from Dr. Katie Liddane.
    Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane takes us through the Newcastle Witch Hunt.
    Sarah Jack: And tells us about her witch trial history workshop at Newcastle Castle, attended by sixth-year students.
    Josh Hutchinson: We also explore why the Newcastle Witch Hunt has been overlooked by many, while the Pendle Witch Trials are much more widely known.
    Sarah Jack: This conversation is so engaging, you may catch yourself trying to join in with us.
    Josh Hutchinson: And we don't mind if you do.
    Sarah Jack: Yay!
    Josh Hutchinson: Dr. Liddane's work highlights the large absence [00:01:00] and sense of obscurity around neglected historical events like witch trials, especially when pitted against the more renowned historical events.
    Sarah Jack: Dr. Liddane emphasizes the importance of remembering our past and memorializing those accused of witchcraft.
    Josh Hutchinson: One of her outreach efforts has been to dress the part of a 17th century woman accused of witchcraft and lead castle tours.
    Sarah Jack: Be sure to check out her social media so you can see her in costume. It's awesome.
    Josh Hutchinson: It is.
    Sarah Jack: Welcome Dr. Katie Liddane. Her expertise spans witchcraft history, folklore, historical fiction, and the intriguing realm of gothic tourism. Her research and creative projects focus on 17th century northeast English witchcraft, and she obtained a PhD from Northumbria University.
    Sarah Jack: Could you please introduce yourself and share with the listeners your background, expertise, and professional journey?
    Katie Liddane: I'm Katie Liddane. I [00:02:00] recently graduated with my doctorate in December of last year in the History and Heritage of Witch-Hunting in the North East of England. Witch Persecution, I think is in the title. I've been at Northumbria for all three of my degrees and was fortunate enough to get scholarships for both postgraduate degrees. And I guess in the more heritage side of my studies and my experience, I started an internship while I was awaiting the start of my PhD that showed me how heavily influenced by industrial heritage and the Northeast as a center for working class communities and scientific innovation had really eclipsed a lot of the other historical events in Newcastle, including the witch trials.
    Katie Liddane: Because the first time I'd heard of the [00:03:00] Newcastle Witch Trials was through a local newspaper article that was from 2008 but had been republished in around 2016 or so. And it was a very brief article that did send me rolling my eyes a little bit, because the article was about the bones of those convicted of witchcraft being accidentally excavated, and the article describes some of the archaeologists or workmen there getting a rash from the bones and describing it as a curse.
    Josh Hutchinson: Wow.
    Katie Liddane: So
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah.
    Katie Liddane: I found that obviously quite a problematic coverage, so I went in search for more to find out more about the Newcastle witches and then to understand how such a large absence and sense of obscurity had developed, especially in comparison with the Pendle Witches that are much more [00:04:00] famous in cultural memory. And I kind of had the idea and the curiosity and then found an opportunity that would fit to allow me to explore it for so long and write about it.
    Josh Hutchinson: What a strange thing to put in a newspaper article, getting a rash from handling accused person's bones.
    Katie Liddane: And it's not even entirely clear that it was the bones of those convicted of witchcraft. It was just in the general area that we think that the convicted were buried. And again, the article's around Halloween. So I think it was just a kind of spooky ending of the article.
    Katie Liddane:
    Josh Hutchinson: Oh, yeah. There's always those Halloween articles
    Josh Hutchinson: Every year.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah. And in terms of what I'd done before the PhD and before working at the North of England Institute for Mining [00:05:00] and Mechanical Engineers, there's an abbreviation for a reason, I had done a Master's of Research in the Heritage Management and History of Crossbones Graveyard in Southwark in London.
    Katie Liddane: Have you heard of Crossbones before?
    Josh Hutchinson: No, haven't heard before.
    Katie Liddane: It's hailed as I think the first sex worker heritage site. And that's because Southwark had a long history as an area for licensed sex work in the medieval period. And Crossbones was a pauper's graveyard for centuries, the kind of two histories had become conflated. And again, it was through the discovery of bones that interest in the site was reignited. I think it was during an Tube in the 1990s that they discovered a pauper's graveyard, and so that kind of gave me, [00:06:00] that masters gave me my foundation to explore the history of the site and the people associated with it, but also how that history morphs through heritage attractions and fiction and public history. So I can see quite a clear link between the two subjects, even though they're like quite different areas of history.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah. Is there any links there that you want to talk about?
    Katie Liddane: I guess just a shared background of subjects that are usually considered women's history or gendered history, sex work and witchcraft, and the histories, heritage attractions, and businesses sometimes built around the memorialization or lack thereof of marginalized people. But at that time, I'd like to say it was part of a grand scheme, but at that time I'd lived in Newcastle for at least three years and hadn't [00:07:00] heard of the Newcastle witches before. And a lot of people still haven't. So it's been very recently that people are starting to become aware that Newcastle had witch trials. Some people in the town don't even know that Newcastle has a castle. It's something that I've learned from working at Newcastle Castle.
    Josh Hutchinson: Some of the work that we've done in Connecticut around the witch trial history is really similar as far as the awareness isn't there in a lot of the community. I have really enjoyed that piece, just having the new learners getting to spread something that is interesting and important. As surprising as it can be when history is just unknown, it's exciting when it gets launched like this.
    Katie Liddane: Definitely has been very exciting and the opportunity to talk about it more on podcasts and heritage [00:08:00] attractions has been brilliant as well because that was the intention of my project, really, to explain and understand the obscurity of the Newcastle witches, but also use that to have a wider impact outside of academia. Because I don't think many people are going to read an 80,000 word academic thesis on the role of deindustrialization in the legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials, but there are opportunities to talk about the Witch Trials and to often clear up a lot of misconceptions that happen a lot with originating in the sort of Halloween articles and popular media that really links the fairy tale or the folk healer witch with those convicted and executed in the 17th century.
    Katie Liddane: And I think Newcastle has been especially impacted by what I term in my thesis, but I don't think I coined [00:09:00] the term, 'witch kitsch' in the intervening centuries almost between the trials and their resurgence. Strangely, post 2008, 2008 seems to be a watershed moment for the afterlife of the Newcastle witches. There has been mounds and mounds of witchcraft media that has been drawn upon to a greater extent than the few sources we have of the Newcastle Witches.
    Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that is since 2008? Why has that changed?
    Katie Liddane: 2008 was the year of the article about the bones, and it was during renovation work of St. Andrew's Churchyard that what may have been the bones of the convicted were unearthed. But that was also the year that Walking with Witches, which is a children's novel by Lynn Huggins Cooper, based on the Newcastle Witches, was released. And then when you go slightly [00:10:00] further back, I have family history journals that do include excerpts from the burial register with the title, 'Was Your Ancestress a Witch?' Then we get small articles and magazines in the 1970s and things like that, but I think post sort of 2008 is the time where you see the solidification of the Northeast as a post-industrial region and there's been a greater exploration of parts of the region's history beyond heavy industry. And it's enabled people to tap into wider witch kitsch with the regional example.
    Katie Liddane: That was already quite a mouthful, but there is like an 80,000 word explanation that starts literally with the witch trials, and then you see a snowballing effect of obscurity, and then a kind of redevelopment of interest. I've not been [00:11:00] able to pin down why specifically 2008, but you can tie it into wider witch literature, occult revivals, interest in the supernatural, and I guess there may have been examples of people finding out about the Newcastle Witches in the same way that I have, and then they've gone through and mined the few resources that there are out there, and we're starting to see more representation.
    Sarah Jack: I was just thinking, my journey has not led me to a new degree yet, but I was trying to mine resources about my ancestor who was on trial for witchcraft in the 17th century in Connecticut, and I didn't realize I needed to stick my nose in the academic writings, because I wasn't reading academic writings at that point. I was online looking for people talking about it, newspaper articles, that kind of thing. And it [00:12:00] was really similar the type of witch kitsch that we would find, that I would find, or just lack, other people saying, I don't know, what's out there, and can there be a memorial?
    Sarah Jack: And so it's interesting how these histories that do come back alive, the voices start to be heard. It's because there's inquiry, and there's a vacuum there.
    Katie Liddane: Definitely, and I think with a more obscure case like Newcastle, I think it's quite important that vacuum is filled in a way in a collaboration between historians and heritage professionals, because there is that danger of this rediscovery stopping with the witch kitsch, and I think especially in a situation such as Newcastle's where there is this kind of more grassroots reengagement with the city's [00:13:00] witch-hunting past. There is that danger that the information or lack thereof that we have about the Newcastle Witches becomes supplemented and our understanding of the Newcastle Witches is that of the hag stereotype or the almost fictional caricature, and that these efforts and these interests don't materialize into memorialization and recognition of victimhood.
    Josh Hutchinson: Now one way that you've worked on getting more recognition is through workshops you conducted. What can you tell us about those?
    Katie Liddane: I wrote a bespoke workshop at the time for a primary school in the west end of Newcastle called Bridgewater. And the workshop is called 'Familiars and Fear,' and it was written because the children in year six, so that's around 11 years old, [00:14:00] were reading Walking with Witches for their literacy class. And the novel touches on a lot of locations in Newcastle, like Newcastle Castle, and the Lit and Phil, which is the Literary and Philosophical Society. And the teachers wanted to have a school trip to actually visit these locations, and luckily at the time I was at placement at Newcastle Castle as part of my PhD studies, so I was able to write the workshop that tied in with what they're reading at school, but also the wider witchcraft history in the region. Eleven years old is quite young to explain some of these issues, so it requires a bit of simplification and talking about suspicion and rumour and issues like that, but also bringing in issues of gender and class. And we also have a game [00:15:00] towards the end, where one of the children plays a witchfinder.
    Katie Liddane: And it's quite similar to Wink Murder. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
    Sarah Jack: I believe I am. Is that a group game, and you don't wanna get winked at 'cause then you're dead.?
    Katie Liddane: Essentially, yeah, and one of the children, or one of the people playing the game is chosen to be a detective and to work out who is committing the murders. But, this time we have someone chosen to be a witchfinder. The child is taken out of the room and told, essentially the witchfinder was given the equivalent of 106 pounds in today's money per witch, that he would find guilty and do not think that might influence your decision a little bit. And the children in the main room are given cards that they are told will say whether they are a villager or a witch. And in reality, none of the cards say that the children, say that anyone is a witch, [00:16:00] and the kind of game escalates as the children start to accuse each other, the witchfinder decides if he's going to send them to trial, essentially, and then at the end we explain to the children that none of them were witches, and it's a really good opportunity to see the shock on their faces, but also to talk about how easily they started accusing one another. So I think it's a really good way to make the session interactive but also through that and through a more tangible and active lesson, get them the core messages across about what we can learn from witch hunting.
    Sarah Jack: The prickers and the finders were a strong part of the Newcastle witch trial history.
    Katie Liddane: Yes, so how the witch trials originated in Newcastle was through a petition that was submitted in March of [00:17:00] 1649, for a witchfinder to be invited to the town, and unfortunately, the petition doesn't survive, but we get the sense that the witch finder was chosen by name. He was a Scottish professional witch pricker, and unfortunately, we don't know his name today. But he had a reputation that crossed the border into Newcastle, and when he arrived into the town, thirty people, which would have been around 1 percent of the town's population, were brought forward to be tried by him, and he boasted that he could tell if someone was a witch by their looks alone, but his method in court as a sort of preliminary trial method was pricking with a bodkin, which was a long medicinal pin, and he would prick the devil's marks that he found on the [00:18:00] accused, and particularly in English witch hunting, this was a protuberance like a mole or an extra nipple or a skin tag or something like that that was understood to be the teat at which the familiar spirit would feed. And, out of the 30 people, the wich finder found 15 guilty and were passed on to trial, and then they were convicted at the assizes.
    Josh Hutchinson: And he was paid per witch that he found?
    Katie Liddane: Yeah, he was paid 20 shillings per witch, and later on, he allegedly admitted to being the death of over 220 people across England and Scotland.
    Josh Hutchinson: So he made pretty good money.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah, and he was actually discovered to be a fraud after his time in Newcastle, and according to the evidence that we have, he was pursued into Scotland and [00:19:00] executed, and it was on the gallows that he gave the figure of 220, but I've unfortunately not been able to verify that anywhere, so I do have some speculation that in the town's kind of constructing of the history of this event in the five years between the event and the first surviving piece of documentation, it certainly makes the town's officials appear better if they've managed to apprehend him but have not found anything to correlate that he was executed for his involvement at Newcastle.
    Sarah Jack: Were there also sociopolitical impacts in the Northeast that contributed to the witchcraft persecutions?
    Katie Liddane: The 17th century in Newcastle was a very turbulent period. You've got various sieges by the Scottish. There's [00:20:00] a plague outbreak that was proportionally more devastating than London's 1666 plague. There were pirates at the ports in Newcastle in 1649 to 1650, harvest crises, just decades of political upheaval. And whilst, because we don't have the surviving material of the accusations of the individuals, you can definitely see this escalation over the time period and the fact that witch trial accusations and a reputation for witchcraft took sometimes decades to develop, you can really see, again, like this gradual increase that reached a fever pitch in 1649.
    Josh Hutchinson: Oh, this sounds so familiar to what we've heard with other witch trial cases. There's this political uncertainty, maybe some [00:21:00] warfare going on, disease, crop issues. Yeah, these seem to be pretty typical contributors to at least the witch panics that happened.
    Katie Liddane: Definitely. And you do see this kind of spread outside of Newcastle in 1649 to 1650. There was a peak in Scottish witch hunting in the same time period, but you also see smaller clusters of accusations in Gateshead, which is just across the Tyne, and the Sheriff of Cumberland sent a letter to London to ask for assistance in a witch hunt, and he was told that essentially the legislation, we're not going to offer any more support. And in the case of Newcastle, they did seek that support from north of the border instead.
    Sarah Jack: In the Newcastle case, they were tried in Newcastle?
    Katie Liddane: [00:22:00] Yes They would have been tried at the Assizes Court in the Guild Hall, which is just on the quayside, and the witch that was likely held at Newcastle Castle, she was a resident of Northumberland, so she would have been tried at the Morpeth Assizes in Northumberland, but because at the time she was in a different jurisdiction, she would have been held at Newcastle Castle because that was acting as the jail for the county of Northumberland. But she was executed alongside the Newcastle Witches too.
    Sarah Jack: How many executions occurred?
    Katie Liddane: So there were 14 from the Newcastle Witch Trials, 13 women and one man. And then Jane Martin was the witch who was accused in Northumberland and convicted alongside the Newcastle Witches. But also on the same day, nine Moss Troopers were executed. Moss Troopers are a local name [00:23:00] for cattle rustlers and border thieves. They would essentially use the difference in legislation and jurisdiction to hop across the border whenever they'd committed a crime. The large number of executions taking place on the same day would have been a huge spectacle for people in the region and reinforced the idea of maintenance of law and order and show some stability in a bizarre way. During this period, the number of executions were so large that a special gallows was built. We have record of the construction of an extra large gallows, and this was what made it more surprising to me that the Newcastle Witches had been so little known for so long was that their hanging was the largest hanging for witchcraft in English history. There's, a group of 18 witches that were executed in Chelmsford in East Anglia under Matthew Hopkins, [00:24:00] but they were executed in different locations and at different dates. So it, at the start of my studies, it seemed even more strange that the Newcastle Witch Trials have faded into obscurity.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah, that really stands out differently. With Salem, we had 19 hanged, but there were several different dates.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah, and I think similarly with Salem, because in exploring this absence throughout my thesis, I wanted to do a lot of comparison to sites that do engage with their witchcraft history, for better or for worse, in different times throughout history. I think it's really important to follow the example of memorialising those that weren't executed as witches, but died earlier in jail, or died awaiting trial, [00:25:00] things like that, so really good to be able to have that comparison of this is how it's been done in another location, in perhaps the most famous place for witchcraft heritage in the world. So this is how Newcastle can learn from that and build upon that.
    Josh Hutchinson: What can you tell us about the memorial effort?
    Katie Liddane: We're in the early stages at the moment. It's a project at the moment between myself, the learning team at Newcastle Castle, and Newcastle's Council, the Heritage and Conservation Department. We're working on contacting people that we think would be interested stakeholders, organizations that I've worked with before.
    Katie Liddane: And as part of that, I'm quite keen to reach out to other heritage sites in the UK and elsewhere that have witchcraft memorials and to discuss the stories of how they came about [00:26:00] there and really learn from how other sites have engaged with their witch hunting past. Not just to, as I was in my thesis, to look at why Newcastle perhaps hasn't yet but to turn that into an action.
    Katie Liddane: We'll look at involving local artists. We've got Bridgewater Primary, the school that I mentioned earlier, involved as well. They did a writing exercise for one of their classes to write a letter requesting a memorial to their local MP. So we are trying to build a communal engagement rather than a sort of top down memorial that someone will read about in the newspaper, like I did the bone discovery.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, Sarah and I are involved in an effort to get a memorial for the witch trial victims in Connecticut. So we're at a similar early stage building the community [00:27:00] and starting to conceptualize what it might look like.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah, we're also hoping, we're in the sort of blue sky thinking, shoot for the stars phase at the moment, but we'd love to do a community event each year as well, on the anniversary of the executions. So to keep the memorialization process and recognition alive again, rather than just placing a memorial and that being the end of it, but also, I don't know if you've had a similar thought process, but with it being so long that Newcastle has gone without any sort of recognition or memorialization, the aims are a bit higher. Part of our thinking is that we definitely want the names of each of the people convicted and or accused that might have died during the process that they awaited trial, but a [00:28:00] small plaque doesn't seem enough after so long. Envisioning what the design looks like is definitely being influenced, on my part anyway, by the amount of time that there's been nothing.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah. I'd say shoot for the stars. Definitely.
    Katie Liddane: I think looking at the centenaries of other witch hunts and the events around that has been really important in both my research process and in starting to put proposals together for the memorial as well. So the fourth centenary of the Pendle Witch Trials that happened in 2012 has been quite influential in the various events and different means of engaging with different parts of the community. In looking at Salem as well, when I visited Lancaster, it was quite interesting to see the coexistence of serious memorialization, such as the [00:29:00] turset weight markers that were put on the Pendle Witch Trail in 2012, in contrast to the local bus companies having a lady with a pointed hat and a broomstick on the side of their, on the side of their buses.
    Katie Liddane: So there's a really, like a really interesting mingling of what the early modern witch means to people and the different ways that regions with a strong witch hunting past engage with that.
    Katie Liddane:
    Josh Hutchinson: That sounds a lot like Salem. The city emblem is the witch on the broomstick with the pointy hat. So the police and the police cars have that emblem on them, but you do have, you know, multiple memorials to the victims there, where you go, and, they're peaceful, solemn places amidst all the witch kitsch going on all around it. So it's a [00:30:00] this interesting dichotomy.
    Katie Liddane: It's really interesting, and I'd say, apart from sites like Newcastle Castle and brief discussion of the trials at the Discovery Museum in the city, Newcastle's engagement is just the witch kitch elements elsewhere, so there are various ghost tours and there's an escape room that do talk about the Newcastle witches, but it is very much in the pointed hat broomstick way.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah, I've seen some local community events that embrace the history of a single witch trial victim from their town. And there's a lot of lore that has grown and then been embraced for communities. And then there's these fresher efforts of bringing their humanity to the forefront. But they're just, the lore is just envelopes [00:31:00] that woman.
    Sarah Jack: And so I'm learning that, they're forever intertwined, but the life can be spoken about more, and her humanity and the dignity has to be a constant part of the conversation to grow that piece of her story. And one of the recent memorial plaques that went up, it's very brief what it says about her, but you can tell they are recognizing her as a real woman who hanged, but they are also, there's this endearment of the folklore that's been around her that they identify with as the town.
    Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think it would be really hard to just engage directly with what we know from the 17th century records and not let any other awareness of what witchcraft and or witch hunting means to [00:32:00] us today to influence that. I think the, it's the coexistence of the pop cultural witch with the recognition of the humanity of those accused is most important.
    Katie Liddane: I saw a similar memorial in Forfar in Scotland. That memorial has, it's just a stone pillar with one indentation in the stone per victim and then beneath it just says, 'they were just people.' And I think the demystifying aspect is really important there to, like I say, recognize the humanity and to a certain extent the distinction between those accused in the 17th century and our more modern understandings of the witch figure, whether it be historical or fantasy.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, it's so true. They [00:33:00] were just people. And I think what you're hoping to do with the annual event is so critical. Hopefully, we can do something like that too, because it's so important to give these victims their humanity and know about them outside of just the kitsch element, get a sense of who they are as real human people just like us.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah. And we do fortunately have some small glimpses of what the Newcastle Witches were like as people. So Matthew Boomer, the only male defendant. We know that he was a smith of some form, and he appears in the quarter session records in the years leading up to the Newcastle Witch Trials in petty disputes with his neighbors.
    Katie Liddane: We don't have much detail about much detail of what they were about [00:34:00] because the clerk didn't seem too interested by it so he didn't write much down, unfortunately. Men implicated in English witch trials are related to, or married to, female defendants, but we can't find that connection there with Matthew. And we also know a little bit more about Margaret Brown.
    Katie Liddane: And in the only account that we do have in depth on the Newcastle Witch Trials and the execution again, we can't really verify this but Margaret Brown is said to have asked for a sign from God for her innocence as she was about to drop, and her blood sprayed across the crowd to the amazement of onlookers. And often when I do public engagement work, I try to explain that amazement meant something different in the 17th century than it does today. But Margaret Brown has a further connection in that one of the [00:35:00] witnesses that gave their testimony to support this account of the witch hunts was her friend Eleanor Loomsdale, and Eleanor spent a year in jail for trying to deter people from giving evidence against Margaret and the co-accused. So we can see evidence of opposition to the witch hunting at the time, and Eleanor getting in contact with the writer of the account years later to give her version of events.
    Sarah Jack: Wow. And those that were executed, were they identified early on? How, I know we have the length of the event, but I wondered how quickly some of these people went from not being accused to finding themselves convicted.
    Katie Liddane: From the glimpses that we can get from the brief [00:36:00] discussion of the Newcastle Witch Hunt in a kind of full length book that is actually about Ralph Gardner's grievances with Newcastle's council. About four pages of the large book are about the witch hunt and this is essentially, apart from the burial register and financial records for how much it cost to jail the witches while they awaited trial, this four page account is all we have.
    Katie Liddane: And in Gardner's version of events there was bubbling unrest and informal accusations being made that caused the petition to be submitted. And the petition was submitted in March of 1649, as I said, but the witchfinder wasn't sought until 1650. So we do see a kind of reluctance, hesitance, for Newcastle's authorities to invite a [00:37:00] witchfinder, or to pay for a witchfinder, possibly. There is a suggestion that there was a sense of informal suspicion and reputation for those that were brought forward. But when the witchfinder did arrive, a bellman was sent out into the town to encourage accusations to be formalized. But I highly doubt that those accusations were generated when the witchfinder was riding through. I think it will have been years in the making for a lot of the people accused.
    Josh Hutchinson: Why do you think that it is that we only have that one four page account?
    Katie Liddane: The survival of the assizes records is very scarce for Newcastle in that time period. It's hard to trace when they disappear, but they were already gone by the 19th century, when criminal histories and folklore collections were beginning to be compiled of the [00:38:00] region. In terms of why there were few accounts aside from that, I think it was probably the exposure of the witchfinder as a fraud that meant that we don't see the same sort of pamphlets that were produced about Lancaster and the Pendle Witch Trials and things like that, because, and that sort of In the sense of constructing a narrative about a successful witch hunt and the kind of defeat of evil and the defeat of the devil's agents on earth, that witches were understood to be, the exposure of the witch finder as a fraud kind of undermined a lot of that, and it would have been quite severe that the town's authorities had been taken in by a charlatan, so you can see the sense of why they wouldn't have been happy with the trial being discussed.
    Katie Liddane: And we do have evidence of that with the four page account, actually, because the 200 [00:39:00] page, 200, 300 page book that it's contained within was actively suppressed by Newcastle's authorities, so we see a kind of censorship of the trial being committed to print, whether it's contained within Ralph Gardner's text against the town's authorities as a whole, or whether it's specifically about the witch trial.
    Katie Liddane: In the same year, a pamphlet called Wonderful News from the North Again, that's a term that I have to explain how language evolves over time. It wasn't considered wonderful news at the time in the way that we would talk about it now. But Wonderful News from the North details Jane Martin's accusations, and Jane was the witch held at Newcastle Castle, and the writer of that pamphlet chose to have it printed in London, even though there was a printer [00:40:00] working in Newcastle at the time. Just the brief detail like that gives us a sense that there was an attempt to spread this news outside of the immediate area, or perhaps a reluctance from Newcastle's printer to discuss witch hunting so close to their executions and the exposure of the fraud.
    Josh Hutchinson: Interesting. Is there a victim's story that you'd be interested in telling us?
    Katie Liddane: In the case of the core Newcastle Witch Trials, we have very, very little information. But I think Jane Martin's story would probably be quite interesting to go into. Like the Newcastle Witches, Jane never made a confession, but her sister did, on her behalf, Margaret White. And Jane and Margaret became involved with the [00:41:00] story presented in Wonderful News because they were named by a cunning man named John Hutton, who was himself being accused of possessing a nine to eleven year old child called Margaret Moore. Yeah, Margaret Muschamp, her mother was Mary Moore, sorry.
    Katie Liddane: And as I say, Jane didn't confess. But Margaret White, on her behalf, said that she had entertained the devil and that he knew her so well that that he nicknamed her Bessie, and that she had a black greyhound familiar. And the pamphlet itself was constructed over about four to five years and released to coincide with the Newcastle Witch Trials, quite interestingly.
    Katie Liddane: There's quite a long list of Jane's alleged crimes. She was accused of using telekinesis to launch a kiln of oats at a man's head and to kill him. John Hutton, as I say, was accused of shapeshifting into the [00:42:00] form of a dragon, a bear, a horse, and a cow, of causing shipwrecks. And again to go back to Jane, she was also accused of causing a man to have a sore leg. So going from like shapeshifting into a dragon and causing shipwrecks to a sore leg, we see quite a breadth of accusations and forms of magic being used at the time.
    Katie Liddane: And in the pamphlet we know that Jane was indicted, tried, and convicted, and taken to Newcastle to be executed. But, she seems to have been, in a bizarre way collateral damage of sorts. Because the mother, Mary Moore, who wrote the pamphlet, was pursuing Dorothy Swinnow, who was a wealthy widow of a colonel. And we know that she fled to Berwick, and the officials at Berwick wouldn't send her back down to Chatham for a trial, but because [00:43:00] Jane was only the wife of a miller, she gets swept up, and because a conviction can be put through with Jane, we see her executed.
    Katie Liddane: And I think her tie to Newcastle Castle and the fact that we do know so much more about Jane is why she was chosen to be a castle character, and the design of the castle character that I did in collaboration with the Master's students at Newcastle came after the original Familiars and Fear workshop, but it's been really good to be able to merge those two parts of interpretation together, and the kids engage really well seeing the 17th century costume, and again, with the understanding that these were real people rather than fairy tale villains. So I think that's been a really helpful method of interpretation.
    Josh Hutchinson: Is Jane who you portrayed in the costume last year?
    Katie Liddane: [00:44:00] Yeah. The castle characters are the illustrations that are commissioned. So there is an illustration of Jane, too, but the castle commissioned the costume to be made by a woman known as the Rogue Needlewoman that does a lot of the costumes for the castle and for local reenactment societies, but Jane Martin is the character that I was dressed as last year, yeah.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, we love seeing people in a period costume presenting the information.
    Sarah Jack: Yeah. It really caught my eye too, because it was children's education.
    Katie Liddane: Yeah, I think it's a really important opportunity as well and to have such an interactive session where the children can directly ask me questions, and I can directly answer them rather than just having these methods of interpretation be released out there. And if people have questions, it's [00:45:00] much harder to ask those and to research to a certain extent, because a lot of people, especially teachers in school, aren't necessarily going to go to academic theses, but to have the opportunity to speak directly to people has been brilliant.
    Katie Liddane: The teachers are sometimes a bit reluctant to let the children ask me questions, because they prefer the classroom environment of putting their hand up and or they don't want the children to bother me sometimes, but I think it's brilliant like, I like to wait around at the end of the sessions and have children come and ask me 'what if witches weren't real, then why were people still saying that there were witches? Why did this happen?' And I think that one-on-one engagement is really important, as well.
    Josh Hutchinson: What lessons do the children draw from the engagement?
    Katie Liddane: Again, it is the breakdown of [00:46:00] kind of very complicated ideas about class and gender. So we discuss the fact that some people who, looked different, may have been accused, people who were ostracized by their communities in certain ways, so it breaks this sort of complex and very historically distant phenomenon of witch hunting into its basic themes to show what we can learn about acceptance and social justice in terms of what, what has happened to the most vulnerable members of society in the past. And through the game especially, the children gain a sense of empathy of what it would have felt like to be accused, or to recognise in themselves impulse to make accusations based on very little evidence.
    Katie Liddane:
    Katie Liddane: It's been really fun at the castle, especially, to directly [00:47:00] integrate my research and real examples from the region into these activities. I go through various cases and ask the children, ' do you think this person was a witch or what else might have been happening?' And in the game, as well, we see the children are handed curse cards that are real complaints that people made in their accusations about their cow's milk failing or crops failing and things like that and shipwrecks. So it's again been really good to be able to break down PhD level research, speak to children about it, and have them engage and understand.
    Sarah Jack: It's amazing. And I really see this long game impact that what you have done is creating, especially with the memorial developing [00:48:00] and the annual tribute that will be happening as these children are growing. It just strengthens that community acknowledgement of the heritage and making memorialization an important part of looking at the history.
    Sarah Jack: It's wonderful.
    Katie Liddane: Has been a really fulfilling project, and again, as I say, the intention when I started out with my thesis was community engagement and changing this absence rather than just observing it from academia to a certain extent is to be able to build on the memorialisation process, and as I say, recently we're hearing more and more interest from local schools and groups, so it is really nice to see the development and spread of sometimes very surface level awareness that witch trials did happen in Newcastle, and then to have people reach out to the castle and myself [00:49:00] to learn more. So it's a really exciting time for the kind of legacy of the Newcastle Witch Trials.
    Josh Hutchinson: As a way of paying tribute, would you be able to read the names of the victims?
    Katie Liddane: So the names of those executed in Newcastle on the 21st of August of 1650 were Isabel Brown, Margret Maddeson, Anne Watson, Eleanor Henderson, Elsabeth Dobson, Matthew Bulmer o r Bonner, Ellsabeth Anderson, Jane Huntor, Jane Koupling, Margret Brown, Margret Moffet, Katteren Welsh, alias Coulter, Aylles Hume, and Marie Pootes.
    Josh Hutchinson: Katie, I can't tell you how much I've learned from everything that you, I've really learned a lot from you. And I look at how you mentioned how you were looking at other memorials and what other communities have done with the history to [00:50:00] implement and look at what, how you can reach your goals in Newcastle, but I feel like what you've done is so historic and is such a case study in itself and something for other communities to model after. It's incredible.
    Katie Liddane: That's really nice to hear, thank you. I again, when I started the PhD, and with the blue sky thinking of the memorial project, I would really like to build a network or engage in a community of areas with witch hunting histories and to learn from each other, to a certain extent, and build an awareness of the witch hunts that fit into a wider understanding of the phenomenon and how you do find specific details that tie the cases to a region, but that also tap into a wider sense of communal memorialization and [00:51:00] its continuing relevance today. It would be great to be able to be further in touch with, with the people.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah we do know a few people in Salem and Danvers, Massachusetts that were involved in the memorials. Have you been able to talk to anyone there?
    Katie Liddane: We're still in the early stages of reaching out to that extent, but I did read a lot about the 2016 memorial determining the execution site, and that seems like it was a very intensive project with a lot of researchers and historians that are referenced in my thesis.
    Josh Hutchinson: So again, when we have a kind of firmer idea of where we're going with this project, would be brilliant to reach out to those people, too. I've already been in contact with people at Colchester Castle, where some of Matthew Hopkins' [00:52:00] accused were held and in discussion with Lancaster Castle, who were very helpful during my thesis, too.
    Sarah Jack: I don't know that I've paid attention enough or I just haven't heard it, but hearing those two terms together, the Witchcraft Heritage, just is like a wake up call for me on messaging and the community engagement piece. I'm so appreciative of that layer of your work.
    Katie Liddane: Thank you. It was really, a really interesting thing to be able to explore and to go back to what we were talking about earlier too. It's quite hard to articulate in my thesis of this, in a sense, dichotomy between witch kitsch and memorialization, but to articulate the idea that there is an interwoven relationship between the two.
    Katie Liddane: And as you said earlier, I don't think we're ever going to be able to separate them entirely, but I think [00:53:00] witchcraft heritage is a very nuanced topic, and a community to discuss that in is very valuable, especially with regards to sites that are only just moving towards memorialization or moving towards the more nuanced look at their region's witch hunting past.
    Josh Hutchinson: Yeah, one thing that I believe, and I think this especially about Salem, is that the witch kitsch draws people in, and then it gives the historians the opportunity to present the nuanced history to new learners, because there's always a supply of tourists coming in willing to learn.
    Katie Liddane: So the relationship is definitely much more complicated than witch kitsch tourism businesses and historians. And so far as we can know about what [00:54:00] happened in places like Salem and Lancaster and Pendle, the detailed documented evidence that we do have does, have to engage with witch kitsch in order for that message to be heard, in a way, so a lot of the way that people do learn about Newcastle Witch Trials in the first instance is through ghost tours, the escape room, and the article, but the important part is when they want to find out more where historians and heritage professionals can step in, so I definitely agree with the witch kitsch being a huge draw at Salem, the interpretation definitely doesn't stop there.
    Sarah Jack: I'm just I've just had this realization with Connecticut, one of the questions that we keep having to answer is how can we move forward with highlighting the history and memorials [00:55:00] without the sensationalizing happening? Of course, I'm also seeing this lore that is important to the local culture, but I know that what has the answer is we embrace and develop the heritage, just like we do the other heritage of the history, and we haven't been highlighting that in an articulated way, and I think that can be an answer for that question on gathering some support from stakeholders there.
    Katie Liddane: Definitely. I think the witch kitsch is always going to be there in some form, but being able to build something else from that and around that does recognize, again, the humanity of the accused and having a relationship with witch kitsch to a certain extent is very important in raising awareness and recognition of these people as [00:56:00] people. I had a particularly frustrating time in trying to track down one of the strangest misconceptions about the Newcastle Witches, and it was that Matthew Bulmer, the only male defendant, transformed into a black cat and led a load of children to fall down a well in Winleton or Winlayton, the a village in Gateshead.
    Katie Liddane: And I haven't been able to substantiate that at all, but the black cat figure is so prominent within witchcraft history that I can, not academically, but I can speculate as to where that came from. But I spent a lot of time emailing the different places that it pops up, and they all assumed that they'd picked it up from the other person.
    Katie Liddane: Trying to disentangle where folklore, myth, and witch kitsch becomes involved has been quite difficult, [00:57:00] but has really illustrated the kind of inextricable relationship between 17th century witchcraft history and pop cultural engagements with the witch as a figure in general. And unfortunately, I think the kind of black cat into a well story is more exciting for a lot of people than Matthew Bulmer being a blacksmith that had arguments with his neighbours.
    Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
    Mary Louise Bingham: Rebecca Fox was distraught, because her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was arrested under false pretenses for the capital crime of witchcraft at Salem, Massachusetts Bay, British America, in 1692. Rebecca Jacobs languished in the Salem jail for six months when her mother drafted the second of two petitions on her daughter's behalf. This petition was addressed to the Governor's Council at Boston. Rebecca [00:58:00] Fox advised the magistrates that her daughter was, quote, 'crazed and distracted in her mind for the last 12 years,' end quote. Rebecca asked them to show leniency, because she feared her daughter's mental illness could not withstand the deplorable prison conditions. Rebecca's petitions remain unanswered.
    Mary Louise Bingham: Because these petitions have been preserved, we know today that Rebecca Fox's love and devotion for her daughter, Rebecca Jacobs, was unwavering. Here is a short quote by Rebecca Fox to the council, quote, 'Your petitioner, her tender mother, has many great sorrows and almost overcoming burdens on her mind upon my daughter's account. Your petitioner has no way for help but to make my afflicted daughter's condition known to you, end quote.' And she signed this document, 'your [00:59:00] sorrowful and distressed petitioner, Rebecca Fox.' Thank you.
    Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
    Josh Hutchinson: Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
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    This is National Women's History Month. Women have been pivotal and influential across all facets of human history. In March, the United States pays tribute to the enduring legacy and contributions of women throughout its history. National Women's History Month celebrates U. S. women's achievements and struggles. Originating from an 1857 protest by garment workers in New York City against poor working conditions, it evolved into the nation's first Women's Day in 1909 after a significant march for labor rights and suffrage. Official recognition came in 1981 when Congress designated the second week of March as National Women's History Week, later expanding it to a month in 1987. The month is a reflection on women's progress.
    During Women's History Month, End Witch Hunts extends a heartfelt appreciation to the exceptional contributions and resilience of marginalized American women. Their narratives, deeply embedded in a diverse tapestry of rich cultural heritages, are essential to the fabric of our collective history. As [01:01:00] educators, these women have imparted wisdom and knowledge across generations, shaping the minds and spirits of future leaders. Their leadership in social and political arenas has been pivotal, driving forward movements of justice, equality, and transformative change with unwavering courage and vision.
    Who are our marginalized women? Marginalized women encompass a diverse array of identities and face unique challenges and barriers. These are women of color, indigenous women, LGBTQ women, those with disabilities, the elderly, the impoverished, immigrants and refugees, survivors of violence, single mothers, and those living in conflict zones. Their experiences, marked by intersectional forms of discrimination, underline the pressing need for inclusive support and advocacy. This list is not exhaustive and can intersect, leading to compounded forms of discrimination and marginalization.
    Despite marginalization, women have broken through barriers across the arts, sciences, and business, introducing bold perspectives [01:02:00] that challenge restrictive narratives and significantly enhance our collective insight. Their creativity and intelligence has been a beacon of innovation, redefining what it means to lead and excel in a myriad of fields. As entrepreneurs, they have fueled economic growth and community development, highlighting the strength that lies in diversity. Their achievements are monumental, not only in their communities, but in shaping the course of American history.
    As we celebrate American women, let us commit to recognizing their invaluable contributions, advocating for their rights, and ensuring that their voices are heard and celebrated. Read about their stories, write their stories, amplify their voices. Their voices, frequently sidelined in dominant narratives must play a pivotal role in leading future generations.
    Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
    Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
    Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Witch Hunt.
    Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
    Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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