Show Notes
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the investigative podcast exploring modern-day witch hunting in India. In this eye-opening episode, we investigate a critical human rights crisis: the systematic persecution of women through witchcraft accusations. The statistics are haunting: over 2,000 documented witch-hunting murders between 2000-2012—with countless more cases hidden in rural communities. To analyze this intersection of women’s rights, criminal justice, and cultural practices, we’re joined by leading experts: Rashika Bajaj, a human rights advocate at Jharkhand High Court, and Jaya Verma, an assistant professor specializing in gender law at Jindal Global University. Human rights researcher Dr. Amit Anand provides essential insights on how traditional beliefs and economic inequality fuel these violent practices. Together, we’ll examine urgent policy reforms, legal protection measures, and grassroots solutions needed to combat witch-hunting violence. This powerful episode serves as both an exposé and a call to action—through awareness and advocacy, we can challenge harmful practices and protect vulnerable women. Join our investigation into one of India’s most pressing yet under-reported human rights issues. You’re listening to Witch Hunt.
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Transcript
The Fight Against Gender-Based Violence_ Perspectives and Strategies with Reference to Accusations of WitchcraftDownload
Rashika Bajaj: [00:00:00] 2,097 people were murdered from 2000 to 2012 in the name of witch-hunting.
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast demystifying modern-day witchcraft accusation-related violence. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today, we're examining a critical human rights crisis that continues to devastate lives across modern India, the persecution of women through witchcraft accusations.
Josh Hutchinson: The numbers are shocking. Between 2000 and 2012 alone, over 2,000 people in India were murdered after being accused of witchcraft. And those are just the reported cases. The true toll of this violence remains hidden.
Sarah Jack: To help us understandthis complex issue, we're joined by two distinguished legal experts, Rashika Bajaj,
Sarah Jack: a legal advocate at Jharkhand High Court, and Jaya Verma,
Sarah Jack: an assistant professor of law at Jindal Global University.
Josh Hutchinson: Together, we'll explore the deadly intersection of gender-based violence, [00:01:00] poverty, and traditional beliefs that fuels these accusations. Our guests will help us understand why this practice persists and what solutions they propose to protect vulnerable populations.
Sarah Jack: We'll also hear from returning guest, Dr. Amit Anand, who provides crucial context for understanding witch hunting within the broader framework of gender-based violence in India. We'll discuss the urgent need for central legislation, the challenges of implementing effective solutions in rural communities, and the vital role of education and awareness programs in creating lasting change.
Josh Hutchinson: This is more than just a discussion. It's a call to action. Through understanding, we can work together to end this cycle of violence and persecution.
Sarah Jack: Hello, welcome to Witch Hunt podcast. We are so honored to have you joining us today. Please each introduce yourself and tell us about your professional accomplishments and your interest in human rights.
Rashika Bajaj: Myself, Rashika Bajaj, I completed my LLB from Presidency [00:02:00] University, Bangalore and LLM in criminal law from Reva University, Bangalore. Recently, I am practicing as an advocate in Jharkhand High Court. With regard to my interest in human rights, I was introduced this subject in LLM and seeing it around. It's very relatable to real-life circumstances of our life. And then I was introduced by Amit sir about the witchcraft thing, which gave me more interest. Slowly and gradually, I'm learning more about it. Thank you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity also.
Jaya Verma: Hello. Hello, everyone. First of all, thank you so much for this opportunity. It's a great pleasure to be a part of this discussion. I am Jaya Verma. I have done my bachelors in law from Chanakya National Law University, Patna, India. And I also have my master's degree in law from O. P. Jindal Global University, Sonipat, Haryana, [00:03:00] India.
Jaya Verma: Although my specialization lies in corporate and financial laws, I was introduced and rather I became more interested in the topic of witchcraft accusations, allegations, witch hunting, and all about that while my time as an assistant professor of law in Reva University, Bangalore, India, andit was the discussions with Dr. Amit Anand and Ms. Akanksha Madaan that made me find more interest in the topic. Also my connection with human rights was that when I was working inReva University, I was also a coordinator of Center for Human Rights Law and Policy. So that's where it all started.
Josh Hutchinson: Why does witch hunting persist in modern India? And how do gender and caste inequalities fuel this cycle of violence despite legal protections?
Rashika Bajaj: In India, there are various laws which protect the women, but still witch hunting is not very discussed in the present era. People still fear [00:04:00] dominant women in India, and, when it comes to witch hunting, women are specifically regarded as witches over here, because it's perceived over here, the notion is, particularly over there, is that women are the ones who does black magic and everything.
Rashika Bajaj: Apart from the states having various legislations over here, still I believe that witch hunting is being practiced around every rural area of India. Me belonging from Jharkhand specifically, in my locality itself, I can witness this in and around, just outside my house, it's a very common thing for me to witness on regular basis.
Rashika Bajaj: Understanding, first of all, what is witch hunting is basically in common terms, which I feel is the practice of magic with the evil purposes. The best example is that in our area, if I take the example focusing on Jharkhand, which I witnessed on a frequent basis, there are a [00:05:00] lot of crossroads over here, and it's believed that on Saturdays, people come and keep a few substances like rice, or some, lambs lit in the boughs of mud and everything. People generally fear to cross from that area believing it to be a black magic. The people think and there is a evil purpose behind it. Maybe the person doing has not done with the evil intent, but then people are still afraid to act. And when it regards to the gender-based violence, coming to that, in this, it's basically because of the superstition and patriarchy continues still in India, where women are still regarded to as a witches over here.
Sarah Jack: Just to add to her point, yes, India has seen and, in the past also, and in the present, is, it has seen a lot ofincidents of witchcraft andsome states have majorly seen these incidents more than the other, have been [00:06:00] Jharkhand, Odisha, Rajasthan, Assam, Chhattisgarh, all of these. And the incidents have been rising, although remain more and more unreported, is the problem that is there in India. So as Jackasked, despite having some legal norms and some legal structural framework regarding witchcraft allegation, why we could not,why India is not able to put a restraint on this,this practice of witchcraft and this practice of witch hunting, the problem here lies in the fact that the laws are more and more restricted to the regional areas rather than being, India being in focus, as in, there is no central legislation yet, although there are a lot oftherequirement and demand for the witchcraft legislation to be at the central level. We still have not reached to that level. Although there has been a bill in the 2022, till, we, the bill has not yet become the law. That is the reason.
Rashika Bajaj: Would like to add [00:07:00] into it,as Ma'am said, there is a lack of proper awareness also, and people are still not ready to talk about it. Many people witness this in and around, but they ignore it, the fact, and then state laws are inadequately enforced over it. That's also a major issue that we are focusing on the demand of central legislation as a proper base for it.
Sarah Jack: With reference to accusations of witchcraft, what are your perspectives on the fight against gender-based violence?
Jaya Verma: Gender-based violence, it is definitely one of the major forms of human rights violation throughout the world. And the focal point of gender-based violence, they are majorly women. Of course, all the genders are definitely subjected to it, but the ratio of women being affected by gender-based violence throughout the world has been rather high.
Jaya Verma: So for women, the gender-based violence has not just, because it has not just caused physical, mental, or, physical or mental harm, but also a reputational [00:08:00] harm. We have seen that women are more subjected to moral standards, to moral policing, and that is one of the reasons as to why gender-based violence would be said to be more, women could be more prone to the GBV.
Jaya Verma: Also, witchcraft accusations and witch hunting is one such form of gender-based violence, which is pervasive. This is worldwide, and to some extent, it entraps all kinds of genders. It entraps all kinds of genders with the hypothesis that the witchcraft accusation acts as a punishment for those who do not cooperate with social norms. However, seeing this, it cannot be denied that women are the ones who are more prone to it, because the incidents have been evidence throughout the world.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding to these points, I would like to say that the gender-based violence is a global issue, still prevailing around, but in, as I have mentioned before, that witch hunting is more among the rural communities. As for the Indian National Crime Record Bureau, [00:09:00] 2,097 people, 2,097 people were murdered from 2000 to 2012 in the name of witch-hunting.
Rashika Bajaj: The major ratio was among, of the women, among these. And, the main reason was because they wanted to throw the women out of the villages to take the control over the lands. And if women denied the sexual needs of the men, that was also the main reason people used to go for the witchcrafts and everything over there, related to those evil practices.
Josh Hutchinson: And what strategies are needed to fight against gender-based violence, especially with reference to accusations of witchcraft?
Rashika Bajaj: One thing that we have decided on the theme is about the demand for the central legislation. If we go into a rough draft of it, it's very,important to define the term witchcraft as to what all falls into it because it covers a wider ambit. There are different ways people do it.
Rashika Bajaj: If we see in the Hindus, [00:10:00] Hinduism, people, generally there is a kind of, even practices can be done for the, people use witch magics to at least cure something also. And for some, it's like they, you try to harm others also. But then the main perception over here is that people take it in a negative perspective only.
Rashika Bajaj: So for that, a well-defined definition is important. Some punitive measures would be beneficial for the states and the country itself, such as strict punishment for individuals. And apart from this, victim protection and rehabilitation can also help more on these points. And not forgetting about the awareness programs. As I said, we need to change the notion of the people in and around. Education is the base for everything, what I believe is. Seeing mostly witch hunters practice in the rural areas and women who are widowed, divorced, basically try to practice this [00:11:00] thinking that some evil things has happened to them, and to cure them, people go to the witch doctors in and around to find a solution for themselves. And in general terms also, if we see in and around when we, in just a small example, I would like to cite it. When a child falls ill, the mother takes him to the temple to take out the evil eye, or what we call as the drishti.
Rashika Bajaj: So the first aspect of if we want to change the one notion is about what will be is the awareness program will help us a lot. In doing so, educating people, as rural people are not much educated. Apart from that, the laws would work.
Jaya Verma: So about the strategies, adding to Rashika's points, I think that the problem here in India is that yes, India has grown. India, the infrastructure of India, the development in India has been rapid throughout a few decades, past few decades. But the problem here is that even though India has made a name of [00:12:00] itself in the map, in the world map, but still 70 percent of the population in India that resides in rural areas, in rural India. There, witchcraftaccusation and witch hunting has been more rather than the urban areas.
Jaya Verma: So what we see here in India is that the rural India is rather,it is comprised of mostly a patriarchal structure of society. So apart from all the other reasons, what we see is that the reason why witchcraft and witchcraft accusation and hunting remains pervasive in the rural India is that because there's a lack of infrastructure and they want to maintain that kind of society that already exists. They do not want want their social structure order disturbed at all, and the woman, if at all, they want to change or move out from the traditional roles that they are supposed to follow, like looking after the household or just remaining inside the homes, not studying, not getting educated, not even proper [00:13:00] healthcare.
Jaya Verma: So, if they try to step out of that traditional role, what happens is that they are forced, pulled back by these means of sanction. So in rural India, witchcraft works as a sanction, as a very evil sanction, against those women who want to get out of the structure of patriarchy that, you know,that encapsulates the entire rural India.
Jaya Verma: So, what we need to understand here is that, yes, the laws are definitely, even if they're there, they're not implemented. The strategies that can be followed here is that, first of all, of course, as Rashika pointed out, we need a central legislation. From the legal point of view, we need to have stronger laws.
Jaya Verma: Apart from that, there are, we have to know that witchcraft accusations they're not just something which has religious or superstitious roots.
Sarah Jack: Another strategy that we could adopt here is, the, the trauma that, it causes, the trauma that witch hunting and witchcraft accusation causes to the people, to the [00:14:00] victim of saidsocial evil and the strategies that could implement that could ensure that the mental,the problems that are caused, the mental distress that is caused to them is fixed somehow through therapy and a wide awareness regarding everything that is happening in the country, which is rare because the reporting of the incidents is rare. The printing of said incidents in the print media or in the electronic media is very rare. So that is all is needed as a strategy apart from the laws that is of course required.
Rashika Bajaj: I would like to substantiate those with few datas I have with myself. From the, over the period spanning from 2010 to 2021, 1,500 individuals in India fell victim to acts of violence including burning and lynching following only the allegations of witchcrafts. This was the report by the National Crime Bureau records.
Rashika Bajaj: Apart from this, between 2001 to 2016, the state of Jharkhand witnessed lynching [00:15:00] of 523 women by their local communities who had been labelled as witches. And not only Jharkhand have suffered these, but apart from that, other states such as Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Gujarat, West Bengal also.
Josh Hutchinson: And only 69 percent of the cases are only reported of witch hunting are only reported in India, which resulted into police intervention. And apart from this, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and other states are also very common, and it's increasing day by day, and it's not increasing apart from the further generations being educated on this point.
Josh Hutchinson: You had mentioned that there is central legislation, a bill has been proposed. What is the status of that? What can you tell us about that legislation that's been proposed? what's the process? What needs to happen for that bill to pass?
Jaya Verma: Yeah. So the bill was introduced in [00:16:00] 2020 in one of the houses of the parliament, the Rajya Sabha, the upper house. And what requires to be done here is then since it has been introduced, it needs to clear the three hearings of the bill in the parliament. Both houses need to come together and they need todiscuss over the bill, they need to discuss everything regarding it, and then once it passes through both the houses, it requires the assent of the president.
Jaya Verma: So for now, the bill has been introduced, although it has not crossed all the three hearings till date. So it is still pending. It is still requires all the steps to fulfill before it becomes an act. However, there is no development in the process still. So it is pending for now.
Sarah Jack: And during those hearings, is it, is it just government officials who discuss and examine it? Or are there, is there a voice from the public at those hearings?
Jaya Verma: In our [00:17:00] political structure, what happens is that it is a representative democracy, India. So the people are elected, they go to the parliament, the people elect their leaders, and they become members of parliament. Some become members of parliament, the elected people, directly from the people, they become members of Lok Sabha, which is the lower house, and the upper house, that is the Rajya Sabha there, it is not direct representation, there is, from the states, the state legislative assemblies, they are supposed to send members into the Rajya Sabha.
Jaya Verma: So both kinds of representation is there in the parliament. Even though the bills that are introduced are not directly, there's no,the people are not directly asked for their opinion. However, since we are a representative democracy, it is assumed that the voices of the people will be put forth by the people who are already there in the parliament. So they are the leaders and they will be the ones who are, who introduce the [00:18:00] bill. They pass the bill. So that is how it works.
Sarah Jack: Thank you so much.
Josh Hutchinson: And you both had mentioned previously that legal frameworks do need to be strengthened and laws need to be improved upon to better protect women from witch-hunting and related violence. What specifically in the law needs to happen for women to be better protected?
Jaya Verma: So, currently, the penal provisions around the law, as in the witch-hunting, the witchcraft allegations, accusations, everything, all the incidents that are being reported, even though they are very less in number, they get reported and they do not get punished in the, in a particular, in a special, under a special law.
Jaya Verma: There is a very general law, the general law of the Indian Penal Code, which is the general law of the land regarding criminal laws. It lays down the nature of offenses and the [00:19:00] punishment against those offenses. So, witchcraft accusation or witch-hunting specifically does not find a mention in any of the laws that are centrally applied in, currently in India.
Jaya Verma: So what we, what the central legislation demands here is that there should be a special law dealing with witchcraft, and witchcraft accusation laws are there at the state level, as in, on the units which are there in India, right? There's a, it's a unit,it's a quasi-federal structure. So there is a, in the country, there are several units which are called as states. So those states have laws. Some of those states have laws. The places which seemore incidents of witchcraft allegations, they have their state laws. But lack of central legislation is not, is,the punishment is not very clear. The punishment is very fragmented in different states. And also the ones which are already [00:20:00] there, that is not enough to cause a restraint on this particular practice.
Sarah Jack: If the gender-based violence laws were strong enough, would that flow over and add some protection for alleged witches? Also, so it's, I'm trying to understand is, are the current gender-based violence laws, they themselves, the punishments, aren't strong enough to stop it from happening? Even though, even violence that may not be connected to a witchcraft accusation.
Rashika Bajaj: I personally believe that the, whatever the laws India is having based on gender-based violence, it does not cover the point of the witchcraft in itself. Witchcraft is totally a separate aspect of gender-based violence, because it's, as taking the example of domestic violence, if we compare with it, it's committed in a different way and a witchcraft is [00:21:00] committed in a totally different way. There are both different ways of committing it. Though these states have the their general laws, but as I mentioned earlier, the ways of committing witchcraft is very different. Therefore, the specific definitions of the word witchcraft is mandatory. And if we talk about the other legislation type, be it the sexual protection of women, sexual harassment of women at the workplace or domestic violence act, they have their own perspective. And each laws have their own objectives. So I believe a separate legislation would work more over here.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, that is actually correct. That we, in India we see that, despite there being a central legislation regarding crimes in general, the Indian Penal Code and the procedural law that surrounds it, that is the criminal procedure code, we also see that there are criminal laws that arefocused specifically on a particular subject, and they are, they surround the gender-based violence that Rashika correctly pointed out about [00:22:00] thedomestic violence. There is an act, special act for that. Then there is an act against dowry prohibition, which restrains and which punishes people who demand dowrywhile the wedding is happening or the marriage is happening, any,the people who are involved in it, they get punished, especially, so special laws around that.The laws restraining child marriage is also there in India.
Jaya Verma: So all of these are special laws and even though the laws around all of these offenses are there in the Indian Penal Code, that is, it's all there in the Indian Penal Code and, but still special laws have been framed, because the general laws were not enough. So that is what we also think that witchcraft,witch-hunting and witchcraft should also be, there, there should be special laws around that.
Sarah Jack: And how long these, historically, how long have laws to protect women been introduced? [00:23:00] Are we talking decades, just a few decades, or is it still very young in laws that are protecting women's rights?
Jaya Verma: The laws that have been protecting women in India, it's not just been decades, it has been around a few hundred years. Around the year 1800s, this has been happening. A very known pioneer of women's rights protection, he was Raja Ram Mohan Roy, also a freedom fighter while we were under the subjugation or imperialism of British. So during that time, only he started with the idea that women's rights should be,there should be laws around women's, gender-based violence and the women should be protected. So the laws regarding widow remarriage. In India, that was not there. So that was introduced in the, during 1800s. And also child marriage restraint was also, it had also started.
Jaya Verma: Also to [00:24:00] point out that during imperialism, witchcraft and witch-hunting, these issues were also dealt with by the British. And there was restraint put on the people, on the native people here, by the British. They were not supposed topractice this in,India, during, from that time. And from there on, it has been a continued process. Lots of laws, many laws have been introduced. In fact, most of our laws in India, they are, they are more helpful towards bringing a change regarding gender-based violence. And I'm talking in general. Most of the laws. However, of course, improvement is required.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding on to Ma'am's point,as the question was asked, I have read a few,Hindu vedas all have also gone through into those also. There were also few rules which protected women, though they were not properly codified, but still from time immemorial, India is trying to protect the rights of the woman and they have been given the position of [00:25:00] goddess, and the respect for women is always at the supreme level over here.
Jaya Verma: And in addition to legislation itself, there needs to be several other things that happen to help bring an end to this. One thing you mentioned was awareness and education. What type of education is needed in these communities?
Rashika Bajaj: Rural people are basically less educated over here. Imparting education over there is literally difficult. So, our community-level awareness program, as I mentioned, by NGOs, by social workers and local leaders, giving them a basic knowledge about the ideas. Apart from this, we can go into police and judicial reforms, where by improving the sensitivity and understanding of law enforcement agency regarding witchcraft-related violence is also vital, which I believe. And the sensitization programs [00:26:00] for police officers, legal professionals, and other judicial members, which can help more effective enforcement.
Rashika Bajaj: One is that judiciary needs to also work more. When it comes to educational level, it's not only rural people also, but it, as a lawyer, there is a learning every day. So when it comes to understanding, it covers a wider aspect for me as it's a very vast topic. So I believe all the judicial, at the judiciary level, be it the rural people and including us also, me witnessing witchcraft in and around very often, still being so educated, I neglect it. So there must be some other more awareness programs. People should not hesitate to talk about that thing, which I believe is the crucial thing. And that can only be done with the help of the awareness programs by NGOs at the ground level, basically.
Jaya Verma: Also, adding to Rashika's point, some [00:27:00] education is also required at the grassroots level, because, as mentioned before, also that 70 percent of people in India reside in rural areas. So, the education, educational infrastructure has not reached at all. And the literacy standard in India is still at a very low. So we need to raise that. We need to ensure that it has, it becomes a little higher, because for a person to be literate in India, they don't even require to be, youthey don't even require to be past fifth grade or something like that. All they need is till date that they require to be able to write their own name in any language that is there in our country. So the standard itself has to be raised. Apart from that, of course, the infrastructure has to be ensured that it reaches to all the areas in India, which is still scanty. Moreover, even after it reaches, we need to ensure that a gender-based[00:28:00] study or a gender-based awareness happens, which is also rare in India. It still has not happened till now. Only the schools which are, or the, all the institutions which are there in the urban areas, they have that kind of education. And a very big problem that still persists here in India is that it is tabooed. The education regarding gender-based, the gender-based education is tabooed and we are still stuck in professional education as to just to get jobs. The people who are all still here in urban places. So we need to have a more holistic approach towards education.
Josh Hutchinson: You had also mentioned the need to support the survivors of witchcraft accusations. What kind of supports are people needing once they've been through this horrific type of event?
Rashika Bajaj: There have been few incidents reported as I have mentioned earlier, the data which I gave of [00:29:00] the National Crime Record Bureau and about the Jharkhand lynching cases. There are few victims who are not actually liable for that thing but then because just of an as an apprehension they are being treated as, as witches or witchcraft.
Rashika Bajaj: They're like, there are many community witch practices like in Assam also I have heard aboutblack magic thing and witchcraft in India where the common tricks are used is fortune telling through shells and future projections are also done through the piece of broken glasses. So people who so ever even in like I would like to substantiate just a minute I have a data on that just one second I'll just substantiate it.
Rashika Bajaj: So there was a study conducted by the Odisha State Commission for Women and ActionAid, where it was held that because of the social economic structure, gender inequality and insufficient healthcare, women, basically, from the Dalit community weremajorly [00:30:00] focused at the witches over there and treated, they were treated as, mainly focused, focus was that the apprehension was that they used to do evil practices.
Rashika Bajaj: Even if a harm is caused to themselves, they, because they had suffered a lot, it was believed that in future they are doing these evil practices to protect them and take revenge from people over there. Even the intention of the people are not, though also still, there are, like, if so, because that's why I mentioned about the victim protection programs about that.
Rashika Bajaj: And I have added one more point before also stating that people not always do it by bad intentions, but since it's a notion in their mind, we need to change it that which will help in protecting the victim.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, it's correct. Only having a deterrent approach of punishment cannot work here in India, because most of the times they don't even realize whether they're doing something wrong or not. They are in the notion that, since society is accepting it, since everyone is okay with the [00:31:00] fact that this is, this particular thing is happening here, they are right in their own minds. They believe that they are correct. So that needs to be changed and it'll take quite some time to change that, to change this belief.
Jaya Verma: And, I think that,talking about the victim rehabilitation, after this incident of witchcraft accusation happens after, after the victims, they face torture, they face otherissues like they face humiliation, public humiliation. It becomes very difficult for them to go back to that place where they used to live. The ostracizing and the people who are facing the issue right there, they cannot go back to living and they cannot also leave everything and move ahead. So there has to be some institution that couldmake a rehabilitation happen for those victims.
Jaya Verma: And also when trials happen in India, in a sense of, there's a thing called in camera proceedings, so where the names of the victims is not revealed and their identities are not [00:32:00] revealed, which is more dangerous to them when it comes to society. Since this particular kind of social level carries everything, societal reputation is a very big player here. So, these things also need to be accommodated in the victim rehabilitation program, I believe.
Josh Hutchinson: You had talked earlier about,with regard to education, the lack of infrastructure in rural areas, but also, more generally, a lack of infrastructure in rural areas. In addition to schools, what else is needed in these areas? I know you talked about health care being important for women to have good access to get health care.
Jaya Verma: Education and health care definitely being primary infrastructure needs in rural areas. We also need steps to ensure unemployment,unemployment reduces because of the unemployment increasing, poverty increases and as a [00:33:00] result,one of the,one of the professors of sociology at Michigan State University,Soma Choudhuri, she also points out that witchcraft allegations and witch hunting is also a form of stress relief. So, the people there, they are not very,they find their stress gets relieved once they accuse somebody or blame somebody of the problems that are happening to them. Moreover, as poverty increases, they want, there is a superstition, there are beliefs which show that it is, it must be somebody, some person who is causing the evils, because once they do not find an explanation to anything that is happening around them, they start blaming the people, and they start hunting, they start, they start blaming them, punishing them. So, the infrastructure regarding that is also required. Poverty reduction of course.
Rashika Bajaj: Adding to Ma'am's superstitious point,what I have heard from the people in the rural areas when I had a word with them. [00:34:00] Generally, if there is a crop failure or if a woman cannot conceive, basically it's basically in rural areas, be believe that somebody has done something in even to them, the notion of witchcraft comes into their mind. So, in that case, they take them to the witch doctors or what we call you know, Harris Walby or a pandit over here, they take, do some, they with their different means basically cause harm to woman itself as, at times, physical harm, mental harm, which is very stressful for the woman. It's very illogical to hear that beating a woman sometimes can remove the evil spirits inside from inside it, it's, all these are still prevailing in India, and that's basically a violation of human rights of women itself around, which still needs to be worked on over here.
Sarah Jack: What's it going to take to fund these programs?
Rashika Bajaj: With regard to funding of these programs, it's not only [00:35:00] the government who is responsible, but yeah, at one perspective, it's very important for the government to take measures and from the one thing which we have is we can create a specific fund for those women who have been suffered from witchcraft, which can be helpful for them.
Rashika Bajaj: Because once a family takes to, takes a woman to that, that level where she's being tortured by a malvi, and though at times these leads to rape and everything inside, which women are not able to speak because they belong from the rural background, even in the urban, even the women from the urban background, urban background are still not very open to discuss about the issues of rape and all. Government first should provide a specific scheme over there from the state fund itself so that the victims who are there can be given immediate healthcare facilities. And apart from that, as an individual, what I believe is wherever we can have donate or fund create a fund, attend, NGOs. With the help of the [00:36:00] NGO or any other specific body over here. So it will be very helpful for them. And moreover, as I'm pointing out every time, education is the base for everything which I believe.
Sarah Jack: Yeah. That education is really key to give the women their voice.
Rashika Bajaj: Exactly. That's awareness.
Jaya Verma: Regarding the funding, they, they could, since witchcraft accusation and witch hunting, the results of it, the incidence of it is something that is, that is in the nature of an offense, even though it does not find mention in Indian Penal Code, the central criminal legislature in India. But still, if at all a special law is going to be made, it might, there's a possibility that it might be more criminal in nature rather than civil, a civil suit, right? So, if it is criminal, then the funding and all the responsibilities regarding that would lie on the government, on the state here, [00:37:00] more,and,and, the funding has to be done by the government, several, yes, as Rashika said, schemes has to be set up by the government, rehabilitation centers has to be funded by the government itself.
Jaya Verma: However, if, if we could find in the law that it could be in the form of a civil suit or it could be a mixture of criminal and civil, then maintenance to the victims of thewitch hunting or such incidents can be made to be given by the people who are actually responsible for these.
Jaya Verma: And laws regarding maintenance, they work, the laws regarding,making them pay, it works, in our country. Maintenance works in our country, so that could also be, asked for while the trial proceeds towards the decision, yeah.
Josh Hutchinson: Is there a welfare system in India, a social safety net to catch people when misfortune befalls and they lose their money? Is there government support [00:38:00] for people in need?
Rashika Bajaj: We seem to have procedural laws such as CRPC. There are schemes which government have made, government have made for the victims of crimes. If something happens to a member of the family, if they loses a person, then government fund them. In many perspective, government do try to work on these things. The responsibility, states take their own responsibility.
Jaya Verma: Yeah, however, there is not a central structure still.It is also something that, is lacking financial, support or financial stability or security as such, if we have to say that. That is something that is still not, very formalin India. Although, yes, of course, as she pointed out that the disasters that happen,in our country or any accident that happens that,in those cases, compensation is made by the government to the victims. But more so after, if a person loses everything, then there are insurance companies only that are for the rescue, most of the [00:39:00] times.
Josh Hutchinson: And if a person
Jaya Verma: is not, if a person is not, insured, then definitely, they land in trouble. It is a big problem.
Josh Hutchinson: Okay. That's what I was actually going to ask is, are most people insured against things like crop failure and just losing their livelihood?
Jaya Verma: That is another issue here. Why? Because, India, the work, the labor here, the work here is, separated into organized labor and unorganized, organized sector and unorganized sector, and crop failure and things like,agriculture and most of the rural population, whatever they work, the work that they do, they, that falls under the unorganized sector. And the unorganized sector is, it is a little, it's not, in, most of the people are not insured because there's no formal structure of employment in the unorganized sector.So that is something that is not there yet.
Josh Hutchinson: I ask [00:40:00] because we've heard from some other conversations we've had that a social safety net or insurance to help against things like crop failure would help to potentially reduce accusations because. If people have some recourse and they can get their money back or still go on living their life the way they're used to, then they have less reason to accuse somebody.
Josh Hutchinson: Do you have any closing remarks? Is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted to be able to get across?
Sarah Jack: As far as I believe that we have tried to cover most of it like in our own knowledge and whatever we have read through it in our own interest and with regard to witchcraft accusations definitely national strategy is essential to combat that if, which would be my very, essentials, essential and [00:41:00] effective mechanism is necessary. Basically what I want to focus over is that.
Sarah Jack: So, it's not just national law, but national strategies as well.
Josh Hutchinson: Jaya, did you have anything to add to that or anything else you wanted to say?
Jaya Verma: Yeah, definitely, we, about the laws and the strategy, and, they are all required. I also believe that a perspective towards the study of witchcraft accusation that has beengoing through the history of any place, going through the incidents that have been happening, going to the religion and spirituality has been the first step.
Jaya Verma: But if we also move our focus towards sociological and anthropological understanding of why witchcraft accusations happen throughout the world. It is a truth that it happens throughout the world. And it has happened through centuries, through all ages, all the places. And definitely, it must be somewhere connected to how the humans are [00:42:00] reacting to the circumstances, how can something be so pervasive, so worldwide, and not have something in common? So if we find the commonness, if we find that we could maybe work at an international level, since we, it'll all be binding togetherthrough the anthropological or social factors, because history is different for every place and circumstances are different for every place. We know that the reasons for witchcraft in England or in India, in China, they have been similar, but of course, very different as well. So if we could find that would be good. why would a human want to torment or kill or degrade someone so much, do you? Some factors could be de dehumanization or social control orsomething that is making themsome social reputation that they want to have, some predominant nature that they want to impose on somebody else. And of course, one important, very important thing that has made [00:43:00] a lot of human right violations throughout centuries, which is power.how can we focus on that? How can we think over that, is something that, which I wanted to add under the study of this subject.
Amit Anand: Uh,Just like only one thing,maybe we didn't get a chance to talk about today, but obviously this was something that the other episodes have for sure touched on.In terms of, In terms of understanding what is witchcraft and what is gender-based violence,this is what I have observed that at least in India, or at least in societies that are very much, very much patriarchal in their thinking, they tend to confuse these two things. So perhaps they don't have a very clear understanding. So it's all about perception. Either they don't understand what is witchcraft and why it happens, or they do not have a complete understanding of what is gender-based violence. And even if they do [00:44:00] have an understanding of what is gender-based violence, they somehow refuse to include witchcraft within that understanding.
Amit Anand: Now, and this is something, at least in India,most academics or social activists have pointed out that first of all, there is no proper understanding of what is gender-based violence.This was,today both Rashika and Jaya did point out that we have central legislations. We, we also have special legislations. Now, the need for this bifurcation into some extent, one could argue, is because there is no common understanding of what it means. And what do people generally understand in terms of gender-based volumes? If there was, we wouldn't be needing more and more of these things. But again, somebody could also argue that we need special legislations because these are offenses not of a general nature, but of a special character. But then again, the law can only perhaps do so much, and that's why there are more of these bills that are pending. There are [00:45:00] more of these legal loopholes that we need to fill up. So that's one part of it. In terms of the understanding of witchcraft as a whole, I guess this is not, this is something that is very much changing, not just here in India, but everywhere around the world. It could, obviously we are using the term witchcraft and witchcraft accusation, but different places might refer it differently, and although it might fit a very single, it might somehow, obviously there is no definition as such of what is witchcraft accusation anywhere in the world, but practices that might appear to be similar in some ways are clumped together to then fit this kind ofterminology. They are different, nonetheless, and we call it here something else, and somewhere else it might be referred to as some other terminology. Essentially, perhaps in some ways, we are still talking about women being labeled as something because of a [00:46:00] belief or because of superstition or because of just because of the belief in evil or things like that.
Amit Anand: All of this, in some ways, complicates it even more. And you have something as complicated as witchcraft on one side and then you have an international understanding of what is gender-based violence on the global level. And then you come domestically here in India wherein we are still struggling with both of these ideas.
Amit Anand: And then you try to protect victims, survivors. Obviously there are laws and there are mechanisms in place, but then at the end of the day, they really can't in, in some ways everyone's struggling to understand what this is, and that shows not only in the laws that we have or, the laws that we are still trying to implement, but it also shows in terms of those very basic needs that perhaps the government or other bodies could provide to the victims and to the survivors in terms of awareness programs.
Amit Anand: So if we are seeing [00:47:00] awareness program, we really, in some ways, struggle to define the parameters of what that awareness program would look like for communities that haven't had the opportunity to be in the mainstream. We are talking about education, gender-based education. Then what does that actually look like for someone in a metropolitan city and then for someone who is witnessing witchcraft day in and day out in their tribal community?
Amit Anand: So all of this, it's more about how we are understanding it and then how we understand it in the first place, and then how we are in some ways able to make others understand, especially the ones who are suffering and also the ones who are in some ways doing it. So to the oppressor and to the oppressed, what does witchcraft accusation actually look like, or how do they understand these things?
Amit Anand: So the perception of witchcraft and gender-based violence, and how does law fit into all of this, [00:48:00] is something that the more we talk about this, the more episodes we do, the more we talk about people. I guess the answer to this question will come in those conversations. It really can't be just one conversation, because when you get people from diverse backgrounds to talk about these three things, at the very end, we will have a common understanding of, okay, this is, we have a blueprint as such to then in some ways move forward, but again, very large ideas and very vague also to a large extent, but very much needed in order to have a common understanding and provide solutions that actually work on the ground. So yeah, that's the only thing I wanted to say.
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Jaya, Rashika, and Amit. Now, Mary Bingham presents Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham: Every time a woman is accused of being a witch in many countries, her right to [00:49:00] life is taken away. Even if her physical self survives the often violent ordeal, she will have lost the right to be a vital and contributing member of her family and her community. Community leaders can provide immediate shelter for any woman accused that will create space that her perpetrator cannot penetrate. Then her perpetrator should be prosecuted.
Mary Bingham: But this happens in baby steps. These baby steps are becoming leaps as so many organizations with thousands of volunteers work tirelessly to tell these victim stories, offer services to educate the survivors, and healing through their many different talents, strengthen already recorded data and create new data so that new laws can be implemented.
Mary Bingham: Please contact us at End Witch Hunts to find out how you can help to make a difference. Thank you. [00:50:00]
Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson: And Sarah has this week's edition of End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack: I want to talk with you about something else important. Every day, we see viral posts of animals with albinism, those pure white penguins, deer, real alligators, and even Kim Kardashian's white alligator Halloween costume. When one of the world's most influential celebrities chooses to embody these rare genetic traits as a costume, It amplifies our cultural obsession with these differences. These posts rack up millions of views, with some believing these genetic traits represent something supernatural or extraordinary. While simply viewing albinism as magical might seem harmless, it's part of a larger pattern where we place higher value on these genetic differences, not for their natural diversity, but for their perceived uniqueness. This pattern of elevating and sensationalizing genetic differences has [00:51:00] serious consequences. For persons with albinism, this isn't just about social media posts or celebrity costumes, it's about how society values or devalues their humanity. These same beliefs about magical properties lead to violenceand trafficking. Treating persons with albinism as mere curiosities overshadows their urgent health needs, leading to critical gaps in healthcare access and life saving interventions. When healthcare systems fail to evolve with the real needs of vulnerable populations, real medical necessities get lost in the shadows.
Sarah Jack: But there's another critical threat, climate change. People and animals with albinism face increased health risks from UV exposure. Many states lack access to basic protective resources like sunscreen and protective clothing because society is not more focused on these urgent health needs.
Sarah Jack: Think about it. Viral social media posts, celebrity influence, climate change, and human rights are [00:52:00] deeply intertwined. Each time we share content that treats genetic differences as supernatural or extraordinary, we are reinforcing a worldview that ultimately compromises human dignity and safety. So next time you see one of these posts, pause for sharing. Consider supporting organizations that provide resources to persons with albinism. Learn about how climate change affects vulnerable populations. Share factual information instead of sensationalizing differences, because genetic diversity isn't here for our entertainment or mystification, it's a natural part of our world that deserves understanding, respect, and protection.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Witch Hunt.
Sarah Jack: We'll see you next week.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.