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Show Notes
Anti-witch-hunt advocate Wonderful Mkhutche, author, editor, biographer and executive director of Humanist Malawi introduces the witch hunt crisis in Malawi. We dive deep into the prevalent belief in witchcraft, where 74% of the populace acknowledges its existence. Explore Malawians’ perspectives on the powers of witchcraft and confront the legal implications surrounding witchcraft accusations. Wonderful illuminates the harsh realities of violence against the accused and delves into the imprisonment of victims. Gain valuable insights as Wonderful shares efforts to liberate and rehabilitate those unjustly detained due to witchcraft allegations.
Wonderful Mkhutche Ted Talk, Witchcraft Belief in Malawi
Religion and Politics in Malawi: Short Essays
Sign the Petition: MA Witch Hunt Justice Project
www.massachusettswitchtrials.org
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Transcript
[00:00:10] Josh Hutchinson: Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
[00:00:15] Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack. Today's episode will inform you on the current witch hunt situation in Malawi.
[00:00:22] Josh Hutchinson: Learn about the nation.
[00:00:25] Sarah Jack: And the prevalence of witchcraft belief there.
[00:00:28] Josh Hutchinson: Hear about what Malawians believe about witchcraft.
[00:00:32] Sarah Jack: And become informed about what the law states about witchcraft accusations, and the reality of the violence against persons accused of witchcraft.
[00:00:41] Josh Hutchinson: Wonderful talks about why many victims are jailed.
[00:00:45] Sarah Jack: And how he and others have worked to free and rehabilitate people imprisoned long term following witchcraft accusations.
[00:00:53] Josh Hutchinson: This is another very educational episode. We hope you'll take what you learned to heart. Witch hunting is a [00:01:00] global crisis and we all must work together to solve it.
[00:01:03] Sarah Jack: Welcome advocate and author Wonderful Mkhutche. He is the executive director of Humanist Malawi. He has a master's degree in political science and a bachelor's degree in theology and religious studies. He is a professional editor and biographer and has published several books on politics and religion in Malawi.
[00:01:21] Sarah Jack: What would you like the listeners to know about your background, expertise, and profession?
[00:01:21] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah. Thank you for hosting me. My name is Wonderful Mkhutche. I work as the the executive director of Humanist Malawi. It's the only humanist organization in Malawi. About my background, I have a master's degree in political science and then a bachelor's degree in theology and religious studies. Um I've written several books on politics and religion in Malawi. So these are short essays. We are talking about [00:02:00] humanism. Issues to do with how we can relate about politics and the religion in the context of the Malawian society. Basing from what I have written in the book, I am also a humanist. Of course, I have over two decades history of me being a religious person, a Christian, uh, but. been engaged a lot of humanistic work here in
[00:02:21] Wonderful Mkhutche: I had over two decades bang in religion. but then around seven to eight years ago, that's when I made the decision to leave the church, our religion into humanism. I left after some years of debates of certain things about religion and then I wasn't dissatisfied from my own conclusions.
[00:02:40] Wonderful Mkhutche: So I chose to be a humanist, and since then I've been involved in several ways about humanism in Malawi, including the fight against witchcraft, against the violence. Do with the state and religion, how as a Malawian society, again we use the [00:03:00] humanism to to progress ourselves. So these are some of the contextual debates that I do engage with as a humanist.
[00:03:09] Josh Hutchinson: What do we need to know about the country of Malawi?
[00:03:14] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah. Malawi is a former British colony. We became independent in July 1964. And from then we have had successive leadership. The first president was the Dr. Hastings Kamuzu Banda, who was the, a strict Christian himself. And in those 30 years when he was in power the country was much tilted towards the the religious the religious path, especially the Christian one. And then after him we had the Dr. Bakili Muluzi, a Muslim, uh, but then even though he was a Muslim, he didn't choose that position to to advance Islam in Malawi. He came into power to democracy. So he tried all he could [00:04:00] do to make sure that the country is indeed following the liberal democracy principles.
[00:04:05] Wonderful Mkhutche: Another thing that we have to know about Malawi is it is one of the most highly religious countries in the world. Close to 90 percent of the population consider themselves to be religious, and in that percentage close to 80% percent Christians, dominated mostly by the Catholics. And around the 15% Muslims and the others small religions like Buddhism, Hinduism.
[00:04:32] Wonderful Mkhutche: In terms of the economy it is one of the most poorest countries in the world. Our economy is based on agriculture, which is still at the subsistence level. So you can have an idea that the economy is based on agriculture and then it is not mechanized. To that extent, most people living in poverty. We can say close to 80% [00:05:00] of the population is living in poverty. And due to that, that has given a lot of, uh, fertile ground for religion, especially the Pentecostal type of religion, which is promising people shortcuts like witches. These context switches have given rise to this issue it comes to the belief in witchcraft.
[00:05:25] Wonderful Mkhutche: Last year we had a survey that was done by Afrobarometer, and it established that over 74 percent of the Malawian population believe in the existence of witchcraft. And it's just surprising to see that most people use religion in order to ascertain that indeed witchcraft uh, exists because the Bible says it uh, so the Bible cannot lie. So these are uh, the challenges that we we face, because when an issue to do with [00:06:00] witchcraft has happened, it is hard to convince people that witchcraft doesn't exist, because you are basically a witch trying to fight against the Bible, a book that they consider infallible.
[00:06:12] Sarah Jack: What is witchcraft in Malawi?
[00:06:16] Wonderful Mkhutche: Of course it has different levels. The one which is popular in a mythical way is the one people believe that some people during the night they ride brooms. And they go to different places like maybe South Africa or even some people say they do even reach as far as the America. Just within seconds they start off from here and then they go to these far places.
[00:06:46] Wonderful Mkhutche: And again, people say the witches do meet at the graveyard, where they eat human bodies. But of course this version of witchcraft is not as popular as it used to be but the one that is popular is people going to make witch doctors, and then instructing them to do concoctions in order to order somebody's life. For example they want someone to be dead, so they would ask a
[00:06:59] Wonderful Mkhutche: the [00:07:00] most popular version of witchcraft is the one that people say one can go to a witch doctor and then ask them to do certain concoctions in order to alter somebody's life. For example, if someone wants to be dead, they will not come to me physically. They will simply go to a witch doctor instruct him what they want, and the witch doctor's going to mix whatever he has there. And while I'm here, I may simply witness something strange maybe just falling to the ground or a strange hammer just hitting my head, or If I have a business and it is prospering, that person can just tell the witch doctor will to make sure that my business should not be working or even my marriage or even my work. So yeah, in general for most people, they think that witchcraft is when you are using these traditional concoctions [00:08:00] to alter somebody's life.
[00:08:02] Josh Hutchinson: In your TED talk, you talked about a question you used to ask as a younger person, ' what evidence is there that witchcraft exists?'
[00:08:15] Wonderful Mkhutche: That's one of the questions that I used to have even when I was young. And that question came back when I was trying to discuss issues of religion before I left. That yes we do believe in witchcraft, but where's the evidence? What, You are simply surrounded with the society that is telling you, everyone in the society is telling you about witchcraft. Like for example, in my own story, I heard about witchcraft from my uncles, from my cousins. They would simply tell stories about what is happening in the village concerning witchcraft.
[00:08:50] Wonderful Mkhutche: So those stories, they act like the evidence. You grow up around the those narratives, and then you conclude that witchcraft is there. [00:09:00] And then, while after listening to those stories, you can spend maybe 10 to 15 years or even 20 years without even, uh, witnessing something that is close to the witchcraft description in your life.
[00:09:12] Wonderful Mkhutche: And then for me, I started wondering that I believe in witchcraft. But then where's the evidence? fRom that time, I remember engaging with people on the social media, witchcraft and the, they, we are not providing convincing responses. What happens is when you challenge the belief in witchcraft people simply try to threaten you to say something's going to happen to you and all that. If you are someone who is not mentally strong, you easily fall in. But for me, it was a moment where I was asking these tough questions, and people threatened me to say, 'something's going to happen to you, you are going to see and all that.'
[00:09:54] Wonderful Mkhutche: This is close to 10 years ago, and for the past 10 years, I haven't seen [00:10:00] anything that these people. They keep on talking up to this very day. So in short, there's no evidence of witchcraft. What people consider to be evidence is just the mental narratives that they have. For example, if someone has died suddenly, maybe it could be because of hypertension and all that. The conclusion that some or most people are going to make now is that It was a witchcraft hammer that was sent to that person.
[00:10:35] Wonderful Mkhutche: So for them that is enough evidence because how can a person simply die just like that? Because if a death has happened, then there must be a certain cause. So if we don't know that cause, then it should be witchcraft. But for a person like me, when such an event has happened, I don't use the witchcraft narratives to come to the [00:11:00] conclusion. What I would do is simply to ask questions. Maybe what sickness was the the person suffering from? What were the circumstances around the death? So from that information you simply make a conclusion that whenever people do not have enough information about an issue, they run to use witchcraft in order to answer that question.
[00:11:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: But when you have abandoned that idea and you then begin to doubt that maybe it wasn't, when people have been given the information a about certain, a certain strange event that has happened. You start that they start now doubting their own narratives. And this is a challenge in this country because as already said most people are in poverty and that the information on knowledge that they need to have maybe about health conditions, they do not have. When something strange has [00:12:00] happened, they simply use the witchcraft to answer that. But for a person like me, I look into an issue from all angles. I ask questions that people are not answering. So after that information has been given, you start doubting if the witchcraft is indeed there.
[00:12:20] Wonderful Mkhutche: But from my experience for the past years, I can conclude a hundred percent that the belief only exists when people do not have enough information or knowledge about a certain event in their lives.
[00:12:34] Sarah Jack: I thought it was interesting when you mentioned that the, it was, there was even fear around questioning the evidence or questioning witchcraft may not be true. That's the first harmful practice around accusations is not wanting people to question it because it could bring
[00:12:57] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah. Witchcraft is shielded in me [00:13:00] secrecy, uh, in a darkness. The narrative of witchcraft that we have here is it happens only during the night. That is when the the witches or the wizards meet at the graveyard or wherever they meet, and then they do anything that they want to do.
[00:13:17] Wonderful Mkhutche: So that idea alone simply tells it that you do not have to question the issues that are happening during the night. So if you come out and then start saying witchcraft doesn't exist, and all that, then that's a dark world. And if you do that, then something's going to happen to you. And it is the fears that we are given from an early age. People grow around these fears into their adulthood. So whenever they hear someone trying to question these issues, they are afraid that something is [00:14:00] going to happen to that person, or if they are connected to that person in any kind of way, if something happens to that person, then it may also reach to them.
[00:14:09] Wonderful Mkhutche: That's the the level of the situation that we have. But as already said before, me in the past 10 years, when I have, I started questioning these things, nothing has happened to me, even though there have been those kind of accidents.
[00:14:29] Sarah Jack: And I heard you just talk about night and darkness being a big element of this. That really made me think about some of the historic witch hunting that happened in other countries earlier in history where there might not have been a lot of light available at night. Is Malawi a very dark place at night for lack of lights? I wondered if that is part of it, because I know [00:15:00] that did play into some of the fear here in the American colonies.
[00:15:06] Wonderful Mkhutche: But in the context, it is not as prominent as to that extent. Yes, of course, we do not have adequate elec electricity connectivity here, because it's only 18% of the country that is connected to the national grid. Most parts of the country dark during the night. But I think associated witchcraft to do the night or darkness is just the part of the human history. It may also happen in countries where they do have enough electricity and all that. And that even extends to to animals that usually active during the night, like the owls. People associated them with the witchcraft a lot. If the an owl comes at your house, people will simply conclude that something bad is going to happen in that house.
[00:15:59] Wonderful Mkhutche: [00:16:00] And this is a belief most people have in this country. So you can see, an owl is just an innocent animal uh, that naturally is active during the night. But simply because of that, people associate it with the witchcraft. Or even talking of animals like the hyena. They are usually active during the night. So when people are going to the witch doctors, they want to do their concoctions, it's mostly the hyena that is used for for their for their medicine. So you can see whatever happens during the night is associated with the uh, sca.
[00:16:31] Josh Hutchinson: And how did you come to get involved in the witch hunting at anti witch hunting advocacy?
[00:16:39] Wonderful Mkhutche: I still remember clearly the issue that's brought me into this. After a few years of questioning the existence of witchcraft, something happened in general in 2016 in a place district called Neno. It's also in southern Malawi. It's one of the. high. And usually, uh, This is one of the [00:17:00] hottest spots when it comes to the belief in witchcraft. So in January 2016, four grannies from the same family were killed by the grandchildren of that very same family, uh, because they accused them that they were responsible for the death of one of the young family members.
[00:17:21] Wonderful Mkhutche: So these young family members went, and they gathered these four grannies, made them sit somewhere in the village, and they took panga knives, stones, sticks. They beat them to death, four of them. The issue was reported in the media. People were shocked as the how could do something as a terrible that happened to them.
[00:17:47] Wonderful Mkhutche: So when I saw that I remember going to a certain gentleman called Georgie Tidwell. By then he was famously involved in uh, uh, uh, uh, anti-witchcraft belief and issues, so I [00:18:00] went there and I told him that for the past three years, I have been doubting the existence of witchcraft, but I feel that doubt is not enough. Looking at what has happened in Inenu, I wish I can get involved in this, these issues in one way or another. So by then he was concluding a project.
[00:18:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: In this project he was freeing people who were in prisons across the country that were in prison because they were suspected to be witches. Not that the laws of this country do imprison people when they are said to be witches. No. Actually, the law that we have currently says that witchcraft doesn't exist, and it is against the law to accuse anyone of witchcraft, but what happens is when people are accused in their communities, uh, their communities do not want them to be around. And we do not have elderly homes [00:19:00] or good social services where they can go for them to live.
[00:19:04] Wonderful Mkhutche: So what happens is the police simply comes to the communities to get them and keep them in prisons, because that is where they can be. But it is not a good situation because most of those who are accused the elderly. And among the elderly, it is mostly women. Imagine a woman who is 80 years old, is not wanted by the community, who cannot be anywhere else, and then they are being kept in a prison. So this was the project that George Tidwell was the uh, uh, by then the organization was called the Association for Secular Humanism. So he tried to work with the government to make sure that these people are out of prisons and that they are taken back into their communities, and it was one of the most successful projects by them.
[00:19:51] Wonderful Mkhutche: So I offered myself. The project was going into completion. So I promised him that what I know is [00:20:00] writing, so I will use my writing knowledge or skills to make sure that I talk about these issues. And since that time from around 2015, 2016, I have been doing that to this day. I do write on the issues, and I also do talk about the issues in the media houses.
[00:20:22] Wonderful Mkhutche: SInce it is the mostly only me who is public about these issues, I have a good relationship with the the media here and they are doing a good job. Whenever something related to the to witchcraft-based violence has happened, they do contact me for a comment, and that provides a platform where we are trying to civic educate the masses on issues to do with the the beliefs.
[00:20:49] Sarah Jack: What is the status of accused being in prison today?
[00:20:53] Wonderful Mkhutche: To this day, there's no one who is in prison because they were accused of witchcraft.[00:21:00] The general public, the attitude seems to have changed when we are looking at how it was in 2015, uh, to now. So what happens is whenever an issue has happened and that the community doesn't want that individual, temporarily they are taken to the police cells, uh, where they are kept in order to look for a lasting solution.
[00:21:21] Wonderful Mkhutche: So it is the police and the also other organizations, including us, who are involved in the making sure that we negotiate with the community, especially through the tradition of our leaders, to talk the issues with the family and to make sure that the person goes back to the community. But of course it is still a threat because if the community thinks that someone is a witch, it's an idea that they have in their minds. They may change it simply because the police have negotiated the issue, but it still remains there. So anything can happen to that [00:22:00] person. To this extent, I have two examples.
[00:22:03] Wonderful Mkhutche: Last year, a similar thing happened in the Muranji. It is a district. Two grannies from one family were taken to to be beaten to death, because they were thought to be behind the death of a certain young family member. The good thing is the police the, uh, rushed to to the scene. They managed to save these two grannies. They were taken to the police cell for around two weeks. So one of the police officers contacted us. We tried to gather little things that we had, bags of maize, soap and the, anything as basic as possible for their own welfare.
[00:22:44] Wonderful Mkhutche: So we went there with the police, we met the two grannies. After we came back, I remember one of the police officers called me and said that the people in the community, they do not want to see you [00:23:00] again visiting those two grannies. Because if you visit them, you are giving them food items, it will encourage them to bewitch even more community members. So I simply wanted to to take home the point that even though they are back in the community, but they are, their lives are not as safe as they should be.
[00:23:20] Wonderful Mkhutche: Just two months ago, something similar happened in the same Neno district. Which I said earlier on that it is one of the hot spots for this belief. Young family members wanted to beat their grandfather, who is around 80 years old. They accused them to be behind the death of another young family member. The good thing is that he was rescued and he was taken to to a police station for a week, and after the media reported that issue, he was lucky to be taken into an elderly home. In Livongo. That elderly home is [00:24:00] being run by a certain young lady. All the So the first of this kind were All the people being looked after. So after that situation she volunteered to take that old man into the home. And just a few weeks ago I was there by we donated a few items. To the elderly home, and I happened to meet that old man from Neno. So he narrated his audio. He was saying that he simply accepted it that he was about to be killed only to be saved. I went there, I met him he narrated his audio. So he said he simply accepted me that it was called to be, wanted to be served. And he doesn't think that he will go back to his own home anytime soon. And I remember when I was leaving, he pleaded with me that we should go to his village to talk to the community to convince them about the issues of witchcraft. Because from his experience, he doesn't want anything like that to happen to anyone else.
[00:24:56] Sarah Jack: Yes. I was wondering you had mentioned earlier [00:25:00] in the conversation that individuals will go and ask for a witchcraft concoction. Are those people, do they get accused, if you go and ask for a concoction, or are the accused only folks that are not actually going to natural doctor?
[00:25:23] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah. For those individuals who go to the witch doctors, they do it in secret. You don't even know that someone went to a witch doctor to ask people for concoctions. It's a secret meeting between them and the witch doctor. What happens is when they meet there they say the witch doctor produces a TV screen that shows whatever, uh, an accused person wanted to do to other people, and when that person goes back to the community that is when they start spreading that rumor that they visited the witch doctor and the witch doctor told them that another individual is the one who is behind Thanks. Thanks. certain things that have been happening in the family or the community. It's not something that people do highly necessarily that they visited a witch doctor. Actually when certain things have happened in a family, it is the general agreement that we have to go to the witch doctor.
[00:25:34] Wonderful Mkhutche: So it's it's public information in sometimes that they go there and they, when they are back, they report whatever was told to them. But in some instances, it is private, them and the witch doctor. Only that after that meeting, whatever has transpired between the two is not kept in secret as well. It is brought to the public, whatever the witch doctor said. That it's,
[00:25:34] Wonderful Mkhutche: The meetings between people and the witch doctor, sometimes they happen in secret. People don't announce that they're going there. But whatever transpires there is communicated to everyone in the family or the community that I went to the witch doctor, and the witch doctor told me this and that. But sometimes it's an open secret where if something happening in a family. the family agrees to go to the [00:26:00] witch doctor. So they go there as a family, and then whatever they are told, uh, they come to it even to the community. So these meetings are sometimes while everyone is knowing.
[00:26:11] Josh Hutchinson: How can listeners support you in your advocacy?
[00:26:16] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah For us to be effective, we do need resources. In terms of money and resources. Of course, the challenge of the belief as it comes from several different angles. The first one I have talked about the witch doctors, but now we also have another emerging challenge with the Pentecostal, Christian Pentecostal preachers. They are using religion to act as the uh, witch so Whenever people are meeting misfortunes, they go there to the to the preachers or the prophets, they that's what they call themselves. So the prophets what they brought about is called the prophecies, so they will simply say you are meeting these misfortunes because a certain aunt in your family went to a witch doctor and the she doesn't want to see you prospering. That's one of the [00:27:00] major issues.
[00:27:01] Wonderful Mkhutche: So the people who visit the witch doctors are mostly those in the rural areas. And people who mostly visit the prophets, most of those in the the urban areas. You can see how wide the challenge is. If I Come out and then start saying, a witch doctor doesn't exist, I'm not only creating a wall with the witch doctors, no, but even with the prophets themselves.
[00:27:29] Wonderful Mkhutche: So they use the religion in order to threaten me, to say I shouldn't be talking about those, so they talk about, God is going to curse me. Sometimes they even do phone calls or even send me just anonymous texts to say, I should stop doing about that. One day God is going to visit you and do this and that, so it's a deep rooted problem, which needs serious kind of advocacy [00:28:00] in the media to talk about the issues, and the resources will also be needed to go to places where the an an issue has happened, because most of what happens now is due to lack of resources.
[00:28:13] Wonderful Mkhutche: An issue may happen. In the Moorland, for example. Uh, What we only do is to make sure we alert the police when that issue has happened. So if we are able to work with the community to talk to them about witchcraft issues, I'm sure a huge difference. But for now, we are simply operating from from afar, and it's not as effective. Of course, We also targeted the youth, because for the older people they already made their conclusions about witchcraft but the youth, they present a certain interesting perspective about the issues. They may believe in the issues of a witchcraft but they them. And I have seen this with my own eyes, and the experience. When you engage the youth in this matters, they are ready to give it a doubt about the [00:29:00] existence of witchcraft, because I think with the modern age, they're they have new information, the lack of it in the past is not the same as today.
[00:29:09] Wonderful Mkhutche: So to target the youth, we do say events. Like this weekend we'll be at the University of Malawi, where students are going to be debating the issues of in the country. So using that to change that people have. So these are some of the advocacy areas that we need using the media to visit work with the police, traditional leadership to make sure we directly engage with the the communities.
[00:29:35] Sarah Jack: I have a question. Wonderful. When it comes to any campaigns or organizations or advocates that are working on general violence against women and children in Malawi, does that include violence from witchcraft accusations? Is that recognized as part of the discussion?
[00:29:55] Wonderful Mkhutche: Actually I have always been talking with the human rights [00:30:00] organizations that are working in the gender area. When it comes to witchcraft based violence it doesn't come out in organizations that are doing with the women's rights issues. Actually, that's one of the major talking points that I have whenever I meet an organization that is into promoting gender or women's rights. We say yes we may need the women to get involved economically or in agriculture, but then there's also this issue of that. So it doesn't come out in as far as I understand the Malawian con context.
[00:30:36] Wonderful Mkhutche: When I talk to the organizations, they do admit that indeed they overlook the issue. In as far as the Malawian context is concerned, it is only Humanist Malawi, which is in the forefront talking about witchcraft.
[00:30:50] Wonderful Mkhutche: That's look after the welfare of the elderly. And other organizations, of course, they do get involved in the the witchcraft based violence. But the challenging part is that for them their approach [00:31:00] is saying that witchcraft does exist. They are simply dealing away with the violence and not the belief, even though we look at them as colleagues, but this is a major point of difference, because you cannot do away with the belief, if you still recognize witchcraft does exist.
[00:31:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: Actually about a year ago, there was a huge concern because the the we have an organisation called the Malawi Law Commission, which is mandated to propose that the Common Law Commission was proposing that we have to change the way as a rats to do things. Thank you. That if we then are going to worsen the situation, the Mai Law Commission suggested change in the witchcraft law. The present law was the established. So now,
[00:31:24] Sarah Jack: If you want to talk about the Witchcraft Act.
[00:31:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: The currently, witchcraft law that we have was maybe 1911 by the British colonial government. So the law, as I said it, say it says, wish anyone, uh, who. Has broken the law and the is unanswerable, but the Malawi Law Commission last year suggested for us to change the existence of witchcraft involved in all advocacy areas that we could,
[00:31:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: , The current witchcraft law says that witchcraft doesn't exist, and anyone who accuses another that they are practicing witchcraft or they are a witch, they are answerable to the law. So this law was, established by the British Colonial government in 1911. But last year the Malawi Law Commission suggested a change in this law. So they wanted the law to change from saying witchcraft doesn't exist to start saying witchcraft exists. So as a Humanist Malawi, we. [00:32:00] we were involved in all advocacy in the media to say that if we change the law to start recognizing the existence of a witchcraft, then we are going to take the witchcraft based violence to its worst. Because for now people have an excuse to say if the law says witchcraft is there then indeed we do have witches among us. That is going to be used for them to victimize other people. It is only Humanist Malawi that was saying that we do not have to change the law, while all other organizations are saying that we have to to change the law, in order to save the situation about witchcraft based violence.
[00:32:41] Wonderful Mkhutche: So that's one of the uh, major point of differences. For the other organizations, we do recognize their good work, but in terms of the witchcraft law, I feel that we still have to advocate for the law not to change, because if it changes, then it's going to put [00:33:00] so many people's lives at risk of accusation.
[00:33:04] Sarah Jack: Yes. Because one of the things that I was thinking about when you were talking about the prophets and the witch doctors, let's, the situation, there's the belief of the witchcraft is there, but they need to, I apologize if you guys just heard a, Notification, that doesn't usually happen. they need to not advocate for the violence, and it doesn't seem like there's a distinction there, that if the witchcraft is real, then they have to do the hunt, is what it sounds like. Where, you know,
[00:33:24] Wonderful Mkhutche: yeah. Yeah Of course they, for the witch doctors and for the prophets, they do not directly advocate for the violence. But for them simply to tell someone that your misfortunes are because of this person in your family, that's enough to advocate for the violence. Because what else do we expect that person to do when they go back to the family or the community? And yeah. A month ago, we had this similar incident that I'm talking about happening. Family members destroyed property, they fought each other simply [00:34:00] because the prophet had you told them that their misfortunes are due to a certain family member? And unfortunately these prophets are not answerable. I haven't heard anything to do with the maybe witch doctor or a prophet being arrested or answerable simply because they passed that message on an individual. What the law or the law enforcers, they simply focus on the violence that has happened. People are just arrested because of destruction of property or even destruction of a life. But the accusation part, I haven't heard the law touching that part. So it simply confirms that even the law enforcers, they believe that witchcraft is there, but then they simply rush to the situation in order to deal with the destruction of property and the life and not the accusation [00:35:00] itself.
[00:35:01] Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. Do you have any last words or comments that you would like to make? That's
[00:35:08] Wonderful Mkhutche: Yeah, for my last word, I will simply use this opportunity to say that there's a lot that needs to be done in order for us to change the situation. As a Humanist Malawi, it's almost on a daily basis that an incident to do with witchcraft based violence is reported. Of course, some issues do not involve the violence. Some people, some issues involve the violence. But due to lack of resources, we simply operate from afar. From our experience, I feel if we continue doing the interventions by and by to change. Of course, it's going to take a long time. But what we have to [00:36:00] do now convince, uh, people in, the. The circle of in order for them to directly get involved. Because we haven't had for example, an issue had happened, we haven't had even the president talking about it, even the ministers talking about it. They run away from the issue because if they come out in the public to criticize the violence or even say that witchcraft doesn't exist, then they are going to lose their votes, so because of that, they ran away from talking about the issues, but with the good advocacy as we are doing, as what we will be doing when we get enough resources, I believe the message going to reach these people, uh, for them to also involved in one way or another, in order to fasten the change that we are looking for.
[00:36:48] Sarah Jack: And now for a minute with Mary.
[00:36:50] Mary-Louise Bingham: Dr. Dinesh Mishra, an ophthalmologist by trade and an advocate to end witch hunts. Dr. Mishra has helped [00:37:00] hundreds of women who were brutally beaten and ostracized by their communities after being accused as dayans, the local term for witchcraft used in Chhattisgarh, India. Dr. Mishra has self funded services for women to be rehabilitated into society by personally offering them financial and legal assistance, as well as helping them find employment, particularly in the health field. These actions helped empower the women to move forward in their lives with confidence. Thank you, Dr. Mishra, for this and the many other ways you continue to advocate to help women in need.
[00:37:41] Mary-Louise Bingham: Please follow Dr. Mishra on Facebook. You will find he updates his page on a regular basis. Thank you.
[00:37:49] Sarah Jack: Thank you, Mary.
[00:37:51] Josh Hutchinson: Now here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
[00:37:54] Sarah Jack: End Witch Hunts urges collective action to end witch hunting practices worldwide. [00:38:00] A witch hunt can happen in any community. At End Witch Hunts, we're dedicated to amplifying the voices of witch hunt victims and educators. Won't you join us? It is up to all of us to speak up about modern efforts to end witchcraft accusation violence.
[00:38:15] Sarah Jack: A witch hunt can happen in any community. Listen to, talk about, and use your influence to share our advocacy episodes and the advocate websites. It's an easy thing to do. Witchcraft accusations remain destructive and common. The world is filled with metaphorical and literal witch hunts rooted in unfounded fear of others, leading to crimes against innocent individuals every day.
[00:38:40] Sarah Jack: You are the key to raising awareness, building social momentum against such violence, and disseminating education about historical, contemporary, and ongoing witch hunting. A witch hunt can happen in any community. Purposely take up for the vulnerable. Call on others to do the same. Doubt the fear, not the [00:39:00] humans.
[00:39:00] Sarah Jack: It's easy to be a part of the Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project. Sign and share the exoneration petition at change.org/witchtrials. Massachusetts residents, engage your representatives, and if you're a voting member of the Massachusetts General Court, lead or collaborate on the amendment effort to secure formal apologies for the accused witches of Massachusetts.
[00:39:23] Sarah Jack: Witch hunt memorials and commemorations now take many forms and serve as enduring, tangible reminders. On September 16th, 2023 in North Pownal, Vermont, the community dedicated the Legends and Lore Witch Trial Marker to accused witch Margaret Krieger. The event, made possible by Vermont Folklife Center and William C. Pomeroy Foundation, had support from Bennington Museum and Pownall Historical Society.
[00:39:47] Sarah Jack: Explore Margaret Krieger's history at Bennington Museum's Haunted Vermont Exhibit until the end of this year. The display features the Witch Trial, Vampires, Bennington Triangle, and author Shirley Jackson, [00:40:00] the renowned horror writer, and her first edition books and belongings, including a self playing music box and the table where she wrote her last novel.
[00:40:09] Sarah Jack: We are thrilled to announce that on the December 28th Thou Shalt Not Suffer episode, you will hear from Jamie Franklin, the esteemed curator of the Haunted Vermont Exhibit at Bennington Museum. He was a vital member of the research team securing the new memorial marker for Margaret Krieger. Jamie promises a delightful discourse on the museum, Vermont's history, and the intriguing witch trial lore of Pownal. The December 28th episode will be the final episode release for the year, but also the final episode released for Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast, because Thou Shalt Not Suffer becomes Witch Hunt, January 1st.
[00:40:43] Sarah Jack: Thank you for supporting our podcast. Your financial contribution empowers our education and advocacy efforts. During this holiday season, include End Witch Hunts in your charitable gifts. We thank you. Visit endwitchhunts.org to contribute and help bring an end to the dark history of witch hunting [00:41:00] practices.
[00:41:01] Josh Hutchinson: Thank you, Sarah.
[00:41:02] Sarah Jack: You're welcome.
[00:41:04] Josh Hutchinson: And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
[00:41:09] Sarah Jack: Join us next week.
[00:41:11] Josh Hutchinson: Subscribe wherever you get podcasts
[00:41:14] Sarah Jack: Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
[00:41:17] Josh Hutchinson: And remember to tell all your friends our name is changing to Witch Hunt on January 1st.
[00:41:23] Sarah Jack: Support our efforts to end witch hunts. Visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
[00:41:28] Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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